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In the Name of God بسم الله

كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ

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Cool

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Salam!!

All Muslims unanimously accept that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind two weighty things according to famous hadith al-thaqalayn (حديث الثقلين). 

We see in Islamic history that when the event of appointing third caliph came, the 6 member committee presented three conditions before the two potential candidates Ali (عليه السلام) & Uthman. The committee headed by Abdul Rehman bin Awf presented before Ali (عليه السلام) 3 conditions:

هل أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ 

As per hadith e thaqalayn, the book of Allah s w.t and Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the two things know to every Muslim. 

I would like to know the نص جلي for the 3rd clause mentioned above i.e., فِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ from Quran & the Sunnah or Ahlul Bayt. How the actions of fallible persons become part of condition for electing a ruler of Islamic state? Why this condition not presented before the 2nd caliph? If it is presented I would like to see its text with historical reference.

I would like to invite Sunni arguments in defense of this apparent assertion in religion which itself looks bid'ah.

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On 8/15/2022 at 8:52 PM, Cool said:

Salam!!

All Muslims unanimously accept that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind two weighty things according to famous hadith al-thaqalayn (حديث الثقلين). 

We see in Islamic history that when the event of appointing third caliph came, the 6 member committee presented three conditions before the two potential candidates Ali (عليه السلام) & Uthman. The committee headed by Abdul Rehman bin Awf presented before Ali (عليه السلام) 3 conditions:

هل أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ 

As per hadith e thaqalayn, the book of Allah s w.t and Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the two things know to every Muslim. 

I would like to know the نص جلي for the 3rd clause mentioned above i.e., فِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ from Quran & the Sunnah or Ahlul Bayt. How the actions of fallible persons become part of condition for electing a ruler of Islamic state? Why this condition not presented before the 2nd caliph? If it is presented I would like to see its text with historical reference.

I would like to invite Sunni arguments in defense of this apparent assertion in religion which itself looks bid'ah.

Brother you have raised a very valid point of view. 

I just to quote in addition to the above points raised by yourself that Do the sunnah has any consistent set of conditions followed from saqeefa to the caliphate of first 3 man made caliphs, in the light of hadith of the prophet and duly verified by the verses of quran?

We already know the answer of the question but wait for the response of sunni brothers on the issue.

wasalam

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50 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

We already know the answer of the question but wait for the response of sunni brothers on the issue.

Thanks brother for your valued input.

It is quite strange that at another thread, Sunni brother asked from us in his query (for Imamate & its rational & intellectual need) why Quran & Sunnah are not sufficient?

It appears that Quran & Sunnah are not sufficient for them that's why the assertion was made in the form of actions of Abu Bakr & Umar.

This apparent bid'ah stopped after the third caliph who was killed by a mob, otherwise we might see in historical records another addition i.e., actions of Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman. And they، in that manner, would not allow the caliphate to reach to the hands of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/15/2022 at 7:52 PM, Cool said:

Salam!!

All Muslims unanimously accept that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind two weighty things according to famous hadith al-thaqalayn (حديث الثقلين). 

We see in Islamic history that when the event of appointing third caliph came, the 6 member committee presented three conditions before the two potential candidates Ali (عليه السلام) & Uthman. The committee headed by Abdul Rehman bin Awf presented before Ali (عليه السلام) 3 conditions:

هل أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ 

As per hadith e thaqalayn, the book of Allah s w.t and Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the two things know to every Muslim. 

I would like to know the نص جلي for the 3rd clause mentioned above i.e., فِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ from Quran & the Sunnah or Ahlul Bayt. How the actions of fallible persons become part of condition for electing a ruler of Islamic state? Why this condition not presented before the 2nd caliph? If it is presented I would like to see its text with historical reference.

I would like to invite Sunni arguments in defense of this apparent assertion in religion which itself looks bid'ah.

The other important footnote in this history which some Sunni brothers fail to admit, is that Umar also left the condition that they should kill the person who failed to agree with the group.

  The  committee on succession was set up to murder Imam Ali and make Uthman Khalifa.

Within the electoral committee, if a man disagrees with the majority, he merits death, even if he is a friend of the Prophet of Islam; even if he fought at Badr; and even if he is a “Companion of the Tree.” Nothing can save him.

I often wonder if the Khalifa who appointed Muawiya a known enemy of early Islam and a pseudo Christian convert thru one of his Christian wives, had actually been subverted, been paid off or was being blackmailed.

Ibn Abd Rabbeh writes in his famous book, Iqd-ul-Farid (The Unique Necklace), Volume II, page 203, that many years after Muawiya was firmly established on the throne, and had consolidated his position as the khalifa of the Muslims, he posed, one day, the following question to one of his courtiers:

 

Muawiya: You are a wise, intelligent and knowledgeable man. I would like to know what in your opinion, exactly, was the cause of the civil wars of the Muslims.

 

The Courtier: The murder of Uthman.

 

Muawiya: No.

 

The Courtier: Ali's accession to the throne.

 

Muawiya: No.

 

The Courtier: Then I will request the Commander of the Faithful to enlighten me in this regard.

 

Muawiya: Well, I will tell you what was the real cause of the civil wars of the Muslims. All the conflicts and civil wars of the Muslims had their origins in the electoral committee which Umar appointed to choose a khalifa.

 

 

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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20 hours ago, Cool said:

Thanks brother for your valued input.

It is quite strange that at another thread, Sunni brother asked from us in his query (for Imamate & its rational & intellectual need) why Quran & Sunnah are not sufficient?

It appears that Quran & Sunnah are not sufficient for them that's why the assertion was made in the form of actions of Abu Bakr & Umar.

This apparent bid'ah stopped after the third caliph who was killed by a mob, otherwise we might see in historical records another addition i.e., actions of Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman. And they، in that manner, would not allow the caliphate to reach to the hands of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام.

Thanks for your response. You are right they have to accept that there are some person after the prophet for ummah, we already know as per hadith thaqlyn they are Ahl alabayt and they are never separated from quran.

I like to mention first that as per sunni belief that the prophet did not nominate his successor. Then what view can get of it:

This is completely absurd statement as the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has mentioned Imam Ali in his life as Mawla of believers, his successor, caliph and Wali after him.

The traditions explicitly indicate that the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him and his family), with the order of Allah, has introduced ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib as his successor even in his first open preach to the people:

Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is’haq, from Abd al- Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

When the verse "And warn your close tribe (Qur’an 26:214)”was revealed to the prophet, he called me and said to me, "‘Ali, God has commanded me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and said "If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish you.”So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it, fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al- Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded to tell them."………..

……..Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?”They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O’ prophet of God.”He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him.”They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your son and to obey him!"

إنَّ هذا أخي و وصيِّي و خليفتي فيكم فاْسمًعوا لهُ و أطيعوا

References:

(1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91

(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62

(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85

…..others

it was not the only time that the prophet declared ‘Ali as his successor. However, it was the first time. There are many traditions inside Sunni collections of traditions which either implicitly or explicitly indicate whom the Prophet (S) chose as his successor. The official announcement, however, was in "Ghadir Khum”as Sihah Sittah (the six Sunni collections of the traditions) testify.

The simple question that is raised here that how do sunni consider that first caliph (Abu bakr) was more knowledgeable  than the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? The  prophet did not appoint a successor but first caliph made his successor in his last days of life.? 

It is an indisputable fact that Abu-Bakr appointed Omar to succeed him (Sahih Muslim p.1455), and so did Omar for Othman although indirectly. Similarly, Mo’awiya appointed his vicious son; Yazid, out of his concern for the Ummah of the Prophet (P)! Then how it is possible that the Prophet of Islam (P) had no concern about the future of his Ummah?!

Even if it is supposed for the sake of discussion that he prophet did not nominate any successor then the simple question arises why the  companions violated this sunna of the prophet not to nominate a successor? Then we get no answer thus confirming that the  prophet necessarily appointed his successor but the companions through the action of saqeefa rejected this decision made by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as per instruction given to him by verse 5:67 the verse of baligh.

wasalam

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To take it further, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refused the 3rd condition and Uthman accepted it, hence becoming the 3rd caliph.

The only reason to list the 3rd condition would have been that it was different from the first 2 conditions. So one has to ask what were the actions of the first 2 Caliphs that deviated from the Quran and Sunnah.

P.S. the term Ahle-Sunnah-Wal-Jama was used in mainstream by Muwaiya with reference to this 3rd condition as in following the sunnah of the sheikhain (Abu Bakr & Umar).

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Posted (edited)

How the companions made the choice of matter / caliphate /successor at Saqeefa?

The prophets have been appointed as per verses of quran by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If they have been appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) how the people have right to choose his successor against the verses of quran?

  The following verse of Quran is presented for its evidence:

 Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) delivered the divine message and acted upon it by nominating Ali (عليه السلام) as "mowla" which only means master/guardian here. So instead of sunnis asking us the proof, we ask you about the legitimacy of Abu Bakr who was not even nominated, neither he belongs to the progeny of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), neither he was from Tahireen, neither from Sadiqeen etc. 

Thanks brother @Cool

 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)

Further the following can be added in this regard:

1-  The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has never been chosen by the people as prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), instead Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen all the prophets and selected them as thy representatives for delivering the message and guidance of the ummah /people. The people have no right for it. 

2-  Since the people have no right for making and choosing a representative of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the people thus have no right to choose the successor / caliph / leader after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

3- Thus what happened after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at saqeefa is an open innovation / bidah in religion of Islam. The innovation system continued till the three caliphs passed away.

4- That bidah system has already been rejected by the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as "for actions of Abu Bakr & Umar" at that time of selection of people chosen third caliph.

5- Imam Ali (عليه السلام) accepted  the apparent caliphate without the condition of actions of early three caliphs. We being follower of imam Ali reject the actions of early caliphs and take only the words and actions of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and other 11 imams from his decedents.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 8/17/2022 at 6:19 AM, Hasani Samnani said:

Within the electoral committee, if a man disagrees with the majority, he merits death, even if he is a friend of the Prophet of Islam; even if he fought at Badr; and even if he is a “Companion of the Tree.” Nothing can save him.

Further than that, he is supposed to be one of the '10 promised Jannah'. How can Omar kill Ali is they are both going to Jannah? Subhanallah, I didn't know Jannah would be some comedy show.

Imam Ali: "Hey, what's Omar doing here? He killed me!"

Omar: "Oh, yeah, sorry about that, mate. My bad. Won't happen again."

Some Jannah we're aspiring for.

Also I love how you guys are destroying the very existence of Sunnism and there isn't even a Sunni to defend himself :hahaha:

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