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In the Name of God بسم الله

Salman Rushdie stabbed

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Yeah I personally didn't see anything positive come out of this situation for the Muslims

Agreed 1000%, however that is the way the situation for Shia Muslims...every time.

Every time we hear of a bombing or terrorist incident , we are keeping fingers crossed .....I hope its  not us, because our Masoomeen do believe in the value of innocent lives and Islamic warfare.

And guess what 80% percent of the time when innocent Muslim blood is shed its usually peace loving Shias or 20% peace loving mohibe AhlulBayt Sunnis.

when our people fight back against oppressors the response is usually overwhelming force against us and including our women and children,  whether In Yemen, Sammarra, Parichinaar, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan or India.

We are in a state of spiritual and often literal warfare against those allied against Imame Zamana ( sorry no exaggeration at all). They will use all means of warfare against us, economic,  social, political,  Kinetic,  spiritual and will use the Classic divide and conquer. Whether it's putting Qurans on spears...I mean it's just words right brothers, sorry I violently disagree,  the Quran is not just a book, Rasoolullah is not just a person,  Masoomeen are not ordinary people. You either defend your religion or they will bulldoze you, while your trying to turn your carefully contoured cheek.

Again I don't condone the barbarity of this act,  but again even as my university student very liberal minded but religious daughter said, after downloading and reading the pertinent excerpt from as she said a confusing stupid book, he kind of deserved it. I agree,  like I gave example if we see a child molester viciously attacked in India or other country where vigilante justice is uncommon, we feel bad to see such cruelty,  but realize their wounds are entirely self inflicted.

Salman  Rushdie having grown up from with religious grandparents in India, knew exactly what he was doing. He knew the reaction, and decided that he was too proud to repent and problem solved.

Why do we want to condemn,  a possibly confused or confidential informat led suspect. There was no security, no armed guys on stage, no one to help for a while. Armed Police were fortuitously far from the stage  etc .

Is there anyone here who thinks this kids cellphone, credit cards an anything else with a chip was not tracked. Because i have lots of dogecoin to offload.

I would be surprised if this was a thre letter agency confidential informant plot where a vulnerable unstable kid was talked into something he wasn't planing on ever.

 I love the made for anti Iranian headlines,  Facebook with iranian politicians,  fake name of Hassan Mughniyah, a nice smearing of Hassan Nasrullah and Imad Mughniyah. Yeah young kid comes from Lebanon and just happens to be moody and depressed, his own mom disowns him immediately, became radicalized all that's missing for this lifetime special is Nancy McEwoen, a rx for SSRI's,  and a heroic role for Ben Affleck and  Sally fields.

 

 

The death sentence was proclaimed by many many Sunni groups and countries, why the focus on Iran and Lebanon....hmmmm

Funny how many times that happens, almost if it's organized or planned for.

Makr wa Makrullah inallah khaiurul Makeyreen. 

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If someone abuses your father in front of you, you'll not like it. Prophet (S) is more than our fathers.

You might ignore it once or twice but when it becomes consistent and systematic and is directed to become a norm, you will strike and that's absolutely fine.

People need to put this analogy to bed. It’s harmful to the faith. 

Let’s ignore for a moment the problematics of wrenching these Arab tribal notions of honor out of their social and historical context and ramming them into a modern reality that works quite differently. Let’s put all the thorny questions of that aside. Let’s also put aside the very relevant question of whether Muhammad would expect or even want you to defend his honor in a world where Islam is rooted in with over a billion followers. 

You can’t defend the honor of someone by doing acts in his name that have the evident effect of lowering his perceived honor among the people. 

This is the basic thing you need to understand. Even by your own standards what you propose is a failure. These acts of violence just bring more dishonor to the Prophet. One who does these things in his name is his enemy. 

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2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Let’s ignore for a moment the problematics of wrenching these Arab tribal notions of honor out of their social and historical context and ramming them into a modern reality that works quite differently. Let’s put all the thorny questions of that aside. Let’s also put aside the very relevant question of whether Muhammad would expect or even want you to defend his honor in a world where Islam is rooted in with over a billion followers. 

I don't care about Muhammed and his honor as an individual of 6th century arabia.

I do care about my identity. And Muhammed (S) as the prophet of Islam is a part of my identity. He has more right on me. He is the face of Islam. If I am okay with people abusing him and degrading him open and out then I don't have an identity. This was an answer from an individual point of view.

Now, Islam is a deen, a society which is formed through all the people collaborating with each other. Any random guy kicking the butts of another is jahiliyat and should not be adopted. But how should we answer? For that we need to exercise the system of Wilayat. So, okay I am enraged but I should shut myself up with all my emotions and listen to the command of what my leader says. He says, "Silent". I have to stay silent. He says, "Answer through dialogue." I answer through dialogue. At a moment he says,"Kill this man." Now I need to kill. That's it. It doesn't matter if it sounds bad.

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5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If I am okay with people abusing him and degrading him open and out then I don't have an identity.

It’s not about being Ok or not being Ok with it. That’s an ignorant way to frame it. It’s about being in control of your nafs or not. It’s what this whole thing is about. 

Violence is the last resort to save living human beings. Muhammad is with his reward and his faith is well established. It’s good. He doesn’t need you to defend him. Your pretending that he does is childish arrogance, and is actually an insult to him.

5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

I should shut myself up with all my emotions and listen to the command of what my leader says. He says, "Silent". I have to stay silent. He says, "Answer through dialogue." I answer through dialogue. At a moment he says,"Kill this man." Now I need to kill. That's it. It doesn't matter if it sounds bad.

It sounds like nonsense.

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10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If someone abuses your father in front of you, you'll not like it. Prophet (S) is more than our fathers.

You might ignore it once or twice but when it becomes consistent and systematic and is directed to become a norm, you will strike and that's absolutely fine.

Yes, I will not like it.

The difference is that my father is not the founder of my religion, the Prophet (s) is. If I "strike" anyone in the name of the Prophet (s), I will be giving both myself and the Prophet (s) a bad rep.

You think you're standing up for the honor of the Prophet (s) by stabbing and issuing violent fatwas against people? You're not. When you resort to violence, it looks like you're hiding something. It looks like you can't get your community to give a stronger verbal response, so you need to start putting people to the gallows. It is silly.

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

See. I don't care who that man is and it doesn't matter. But what he said is correct. Stick to your values. And my values teach me to be polite and sweet to the believers and strong, tough and harsh to the unbelievers. (By unbelievers I don't mean non-muslims. But those who have enmity and hate burning within their hearts for Islam.) You can refer to Surah al Maida verse 54.

Right, go ahead and show me where in that verse does it give you the permission to be violently "tough and harsh" (which isn't even the correct translation, by the way) and issue fatwas to kill disbelievers. A better translation (and you can find this across all of the translations with a quick search) is that you stand "proud" and "stern" and "firm" and "dignified" in face of the disbelievers. 

Stop giving your own meaning to the verses of the Qur'an.

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Padmaavat was not an insult to hinduism. And the protest was not by Hindus but a specific group of Rajputs.

So, this is irrelevant.

It could be the Rajputs or the Gujjars or the Jatts, I couldn't care less. All of them have historically been part and parcel of Hinduism or Hindu society at large. There were many reasons why Padmavat got the hate, and one of them was the fact that it even managed to show a Muslim Khilji pursuing a Rajput Hindu woman. Just this idea alone bothered a group of Hindus.

You can call it irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that you blatantly evaded my question at the end. 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Lines must be drawn when a global level campaign is being triggered to insult the Prophet (S) and Islam. Because it is a fitna. It is equivalent to masking of Islam.

And lines must be drawn by the leaders not the public. It is not like anyone can stand and do what he wants.

Yeah, I think printing and publishing certain narrations is a global level campaign that knowingly or unknowingly causes fitna and misinformation and "masking of Islam". Muslims the Intolerant don't seem to be too keen on dealing with that. Muslims the Intolerant will go and stab people and then come back home to insult the Prophet (s) all over again. Fix your house before you go raid someone else's.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, kadhim said:

Muhammad would expect or even want you to defend his honor in a world where Islam is rooted in with over a billion followers. 

My dear respected brother  I think you may have not recently read the actual book, or may be unaware of what was said,  or only read the throughly sanitized summary In Wikipedia.

Why give the Author a free pass and concentrate on the attack or attacker or fatwa. I don't condone the barbarity of the attack,  but feel no pity for the public blasphemer and feel the Fatwa was well researched,  well studied and then after extensive study was then issued.

What would you give the defendant as a sentence if you're the presiding Islamic judge?

Do you think that there is a time when logos should be met with bellum.

4 hours ago, kadhim said:

lowering his perceived honor among the people

To whom exactly are you referring,  the Shia ummah, the Muslim Ummah, ( majority will likely not side with you) , polite society, the kuffar, the people of the book, polytheists...whom are we required to impress with our civility.....or maybe our ultimate authority  and the one we should focus on honoring should be Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and  everyone else is fairly immaterial.

Fatimah is a part of me. Therefore, whosoever angers her angers me and whoever angers me angers Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Same Hadeeth regarding hurt.

I would suspect of someone was proudly  degrading her father in a pornographic fashion might incur Allahs wrath.

And those who abuse the Messenger of Allah – for them is a painful punishment.” [Surah Al-Taubah: 61]

We should remember that Allah send his punishment down in various ways.

Looks like Rushdie likely feels he is painful being punished. 

Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger – Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.” [Surah Al-Ahzab: 57]

Almost unanimously Muslims who had read the book concluded that Rushdie had abused Islam. What is more, he had been lionized, praised, and lavishly rewarded and financed by outright enemies and hostile critics of Islam. Islam is not unique in regarding attack on religion as a threat to the state. Scottish law until the eighteenth century made blasphemy not only a crime but also a capital offense. The Scottish heritage went back at least to the Mosaic Law on one side and the legacy of Roman Emperor Justinian I on the other. Mosaic law decreed death by stoning as the penalty for the blasphemer.

I am sure many of those who condemn Ayatollah Khomeini, are fans of James Bond...license to kill anywhere in the world. CIA AND MOSSAD, are allowed to murder extra judicially anytime. 

I would ask those condemning the fatwa and action, did they condemn the drone killing of innocents, the guided missile killing of General Sulemani,  Yemen killings via drone, did they write any letters or protest those killings, I seriously doubt it.

More likely their approbation is unfairly reserved for their Muslims brothers .

They fail to recognize the author's actions which was a complete pornographic perversion of our religion, is allowed and we should say nice words to those figuratively defecate all-over your faith,  Nabi and Allah's deen.

Sorry my respected brothers I have more regards for what Allah would  want me to do these situations,   than what Donald Trump or Joe Biden thinks of Muslims.

Those who hate you will never respect you and trying to please them is a fool's errand. 

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No it doesn't because there is a difference between disagreeing and insulting. By all means, disagree and even criticize Islam, but when you start insulting then don't be surprised if among two billion Muslims, somewhere there happens to be one who decides they won't let it pass.

 

That's a very blurry line. That's why I would never rely on that kind of judgement. If we are talking about matters of life and death, we should be very clear about the boundaries we set. You may call it insulting, but they may call it criticism. It's a mostly, if not fully subjective determination.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

He raises an interesting point though, which is that the Catholic church failed to draw the line anywhere and as a result lost credibility in the eyes of their own followers.  This is why he and many other Christians consider their religion 'dead', because it stands for absolutely nothing anymore. 

Yes, this pimp pyramid scammer is known to raise interesting points, isn't he? 

The Catholic Church didn't fail to draw the lines. It still stands by the same lines it drew a long time ago. The substantive content of Christianity hasn't been lost. What did change is that Christianity lost its cultural relevancy; it has nothing to offer to the secular world. There is no pressure to associate or self-identify with Christianity anymore. Why homosexuality became acceptable and Christian-born Western women became more promiscuous (much to Tate's annoyance) is not because the Catholic Church failed to draw out the lines for its populace. It's because the Church lost its power in face of a new philosophy. 

9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don’t think you've met many Albanian Muslims...

Also:

I mean, you might get chased down the alley in Varanasi if you said something off the mark about their god(s). Or they might create a fuss over a movie - like they did with Padmavat.

Muslims have been killed in India just because someone spread a rumor that they ate beef.

Yes, I have. I've lived across Southeastern Europe for a good chunk of time.

Oh, yes, how could I forget the Hindutva cow vigilantes. I should have mentioned the 50 odd Muslims that have died at the hands of Hindu cow mobs since 2015. If only they were a little sensible and tolerant, man. 

Violence is bad. Violence in the name of religion is even more bad.

Edited by Ibn-e-Muhammad
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7 minutes ago, Ibn-e-Muhammad said:

Violence is bad. Violence in the name of religion is even more bad.

My respected brother, That sound like advocacy for full on quaker level pacificism. Not sure that is compatible with Islamic principles.

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11 hours ago, Zainuu said:

A more accurate question should be:

What must be done if the line is crossed?

Sure. What must be done:

1. Stop trying to kill people. It makes us seem like we have got something to hide and that we're insecure. 

2. Pursue a dignified response. And this should be the job of the 'ulema, not governments. Not kingdoms. Not dictatorships. Not pseudo-democracies. We need 'ulema who can cultivate such a response so that when a Christian or a Hindu looks at us, they are able to realize that we have it in us to tolerate a book and provide clarifications. 

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1 minute ago, Hasani Samnani said:

My respected brother, That sound like advocacy for full on quaker level pacificism. Not sure that is compatible with Islamic principles.

Pacifism is the belief that all wars and violence are unjustifiable and every dispute should be settled by peaceful means. 

I don't think I have ever advocated for anything like that. 

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16 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Why give the Author a free pass and concentrate on the attack or attacker or fatwa. I don't condone the barbarity of the attack,  but feel no pity for the public blasphemer and feel the Fatwa was well researched,  well studied and then after extensive study was then issued.

The author isn't given a free pass. In your eyes it seems like anything less than a stabbing or execution is a free pass, I assure you it's not. The way you deal with people who are spreading misinformation is by utilizing correct information. Again, nobody will respect us with your mindset.

I'm very curious, do you just not care how non-muslims view Islam? Do you concede that we will have a terrible image if we proliferate this kind of stuff? Or do you genuinely believe that we will get the respect of non-muslims by stabbing people to death for the words they utter?

People in this thread are talking about how the enlightenment has completely changed the paradigm of thought in the west, and they're right. But what are you going to do about it? We live in that world and nothing is going to change that. If we want to appeal to anyone we will have to slightly change our norms, AKA not stabbing people for being an outspoken atheist. Nothing too crazy.

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3 hours ago, It's me hello said:

The author isn't given a free pass. In your eyes it seems like anything less than a stabbing or execution is a free pass, I assure you it's not. The way you deal with people who are spreading misinformation is by utilizing correct information. Again, nobody will respect us with your mindset.

I'm very curious, do you just not care how non-muslims view Islam? Do you concede that we will have a terrible image if we proliferate this kind of stuff? Or do you genuinely believe that we will get the respect of non-muslims by stabbing people to death for the words they utter?

People in this thread are talking about how the enlightenment has completely changed the paradigm of thought in the west, and they're right. But what are you going to do about it? We live in that world and nothing is going to change that. If we want to appeal to anyone we will have to slightly change our norms, AKA not stabbing people for being an outspoken atheist. Nothing too crazy.

Controversial opinion here, but the only way muslims will ever get respect is if they unite their countries and have a formidable country that is very technologically advanced where even western propaganda wont be able to hide it from their own people. A country that could rival the western hegemony as a whole.

Changing your mindset won't change anything, there are many times where muslims were seen as these backwards people even before 9/11, salman rushdie or even after the headlines on "islamic" terrorism had died down.in the media.

With all due respect, even if we muslims become pacifists we will never have the respect of non muslims. You can't impress these people unless you make a system that rivals their system and proves itself more stable then their system. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, It's me hello said:

In your eyes it seems like anything less than a stabbing or execution is a free pass, I assure you it's not. The way you deal with people who are spreading misinformation is by utilizing correct information. Again, nobody will respect us with your mindset.

I'm very curious, do you just not care how non-muslims view Islam? Do you concede that we will have a terrible image if we proliferate this kind of stuff? Or do you genuinely believe that we will get the respect of non-muslims by stabbing people to death for the words they utter?

You mistakenly think that by presenting a moderate enlightened neo muslim persona condemning any form of violence will win points with the powers that be.

There is no free speech protection for libel.

You cannot degrade and humiliate others beliefs and insult respected people and not expect some may seek revenge.

you cannot portray Allah's messenger in a pornographic libelous humiliating prurient light and expect that it will be accepted , I am a Libertarian let them write whatever they want , but if they cross our well defined red lines of pornographic libel,    prepare to pay a price,  not from me, but I will not feel one iota of pity for such Satan's helpers when punished.

10 non Muslim govts banned the book and condemned it. it was designed to inflame passions and divide Muslims,  Mission  accomplished.

you fail to realize this book was a test , like the Barbri Masjid destruction and soon Masjid Aqsa destruction,  to see the muslims world reaction, it was done as provocation, I suspect you have been taught how noble it is to turn the other cheek.

The shias have always been slaughtered because some people are afraid to fight anyone, because what might the champagne drinking hoi polloi think of us.

Islam is not changed by one fatwa and how it is perceived,   is not changing the essential principles.

The money driven west has made piece with MBS and are offering their celebrities,  Hollywierdos, singers z and rappers to Saudi for the country to prostitute themselves,  despite carving into small pieces and burning his body parts,   an author who wrote words. So those hypocritical non Muslims,   we are supposed to beg them to respect us, will never happen brother so sorry to burst your reality bubble.

The Thai king if insulted,  can impose capital and corporal punishment on the guilty party, do we consider thai people savages .

There is huge double standard towards muslim, propagated by the media, and the images of Muslims.

We all know who runs the media, no on objective towards Muslims. You and your brothers in faith will always be considered as  and portrayed as  bowing and prostating backward cavemen....learn to embrace your media personas since it's never changing brother.

Unfortunately being an uncle Tom will not help or well behaved house slave will make no difference to them , but to Allah and our Imam it might.

However,  if you have played or watched Assassins Creed , realize this was based on Shia Ismaili Assassin ninja like  force  still glorified and feared to this day.

You still have not answered why you changed your display pix from Hezbullah flag to bugs bunny friend,  my dear brother. seems quite ironic...

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

My dear respected brother  I think you may have not recently read the actual book, or may be unaware of what was said,  or only read the throughly sanitized summary In Wikipedia.

I have never read this book. Or, correction. I started reading it yesterday actually. A few chapters in; quite enjoying it so far. Clearly a talented writer. 

The question of whether I have read it though is an irrelevant distraction.
 

A, because, let’s be honest, almost no one here has read it, as in, sat and read it through cover to cover. I think only Abu Hadi, and sounds like that was when he was 10 or something. And of course, not having read it didn’t stop Khomeini from commenting. 

B. The contents of the book and whether or not it is “”blasphemous(TM)”” has no real bearing on my argument. I don’t think it matters either way. If he wrote something that displeases God, he is certain to meet God one day or another.

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

What would you give the defendant as a sentence if you're the presiding Islamic judge?

It’s not a matter for a courtroom in the first place. I would give 80 lashes to the one who brought the complaint forward and wasted the court’s time. (I’m kidding about the last part)

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Do you think that there is a time when logos should be met with bellum.

Why are you speaking Latin here? Look, clearly you have a fetish for the medieval, but this is getting ridiculous. 

Moving on…

No. Of course not.

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

To whom exactly are you referring,  the Shia ummah, the Muslim Ummah, ( majority will likely not side with you) , polite society, the kuffar, the people of the book, polytheists...whom are we required to impress with our civility.

Well, I’m not sure who you think is impressed by executing people for writing books, aside from the religious fundamentalist crowd. 

The answer, though, by the way, is everyone. We are supposed to try to impress everyone with our civility. Because it’s a fundamental value of the deen. 

Reminder: Islam is not supposed to be our little private clubhouse. It is a thing that belongs to all human beings. If what we are presenting of it is repulsive to most people, that’s a sign we’re probably doing something wrong. Moreover, we become morally blameworthy with God if our words and actions serve to make Islam repulsive to people so that they move away from it. That becomes something we would need to answer for. 

Edited by kadhim
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

You mistakenly think that by presenting a moderate enlightened neo muslim persona condemning any form of violence will win points with the powers that be.

I'm not talking about powers that be. I'm talking about regular people. When regular people see this kind of stuff on the news, it only affirms their beliefs that Muslims are barbaric.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

You cannot degrade and humiliate others beliefs and insult respected people and not expect some may seek revenge

When it comes to Muslims, yeah you can't expect that. We have a problem with violence. Also an expectation of something doesn't mean it's justified. Maybe you have less pity, sure. But to say it's justified because they should have expected it is crazy. If you leave your doors unlocked at night, you don't deserve to be robbed.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

you cannot portray Allah's messenger in a pornographic libelous humiliating prurient light and expect that it will be accepted , I am a Libertarian let them write whatever they want , but if they cross our well defined red lines of pornographic libel,    prepare to pay a price,  not from me, but I will not feel one iota of pity for such Satan's helpers when punished.

Islam pays a price for this kind of senseless violence, but I guess you just don't care. Is it that hard to just ignore idiots? We aren't animals.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

The shias have always been slaughtered because some people are afraid to fight anyone, because what might the champagne drinking how polloi think of us.

The shias have been slaughtered because they were too afraid to stab a second-rate author to death? Give a comparable example, I'm actually unaware of anything like this happening.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Islam is not changed by one fatwa and how it is perceived is not changing the essential principles.

The perception of Islam is changed. If you actually want Islam to grow, then you have to appeal to people. You don't appeal to people with modern sensibilities by stabbing your opponents to death for speech.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

There is huge double standard towards muslim  propagated by the media images or Muslims, and who runs the media, no on objective towards Muslims. You and your brothers in faith will always be considereda and portrayed as  bowing and prostating backward cavemen....learn to embrace your media personas since it's never changing brother

By this logic there's literally nothing a Muslim can do to sour the image of Islam, which is ridiculous. So much for setting a good example.

42 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Unfortunately being an uncle Tom will not help or well behaved house slave will make no difference to them , but to Allah and our Imam it might.

Lol, Uncle Tom? Go out in the real world and ask people how they view Muslims in the wake of this attack. Nobody will have a favorable opinion. The best thing anyone will ever say about Islam is that, "most Muslims aren't like that." Meaning the only condition they would accept Muslims is if they aren't violent. But you would fail utterly jn this regard. If you cared about Islam, you would appreciate how important it is to set a good example for non-muslims.

Edited by It's me hello
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One day when the hype wears away there could actually be some interesting discussions on what @VoidVortex has asked above and perhaps also on Khomeini's fatwa (was it a hukm or a fatwa? Did it apply in Iran only or worldwide? Etc)

Perhaps some of the scholars out there will write on this in the coming days.

In the meantime, the next batch of popcorn is almost ready 

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45 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

For those who are advocating against the Rushdie attack, do you agree with Islamic hadd punishments(which are only done in the conditions necessary), or do you believe that they are barbaric no matter what. 

Hadd in what sense?

Hadd (limit) in the sense of the idea of having some sort of judicial punishments on certain behavior to limit those behaviors?

Or hadd in the specific sense of certain traditional forms of this?

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Hadd in what sense?

Hadd (limit) in the sense of the idea of having some sort of judicial punishments on certain behavior to limit those behaviors?

Or hadd in the specific sense of certain traditional forms of this?

 

would you kindly define what you mean by certain traditional forms of hadd

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

would you kindly define what you mean by certain traditional forms of hadd

The forms talked about in, for example, al-Kafi vol 7 in Kitab al-Hudud

Edited by kadhim
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2 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

For those who are advocating against the Rushdie attack, do you agree with Islamic hadd punishments(which are only done in the conditions necessary), or do you believe that they are barbaric no matter what. 

Confrontation with all other schools of thought during the time of truce is not possible. To elaborate, there are some crimes that have a societal nature rather than a religious one, for example, a drug dealer. Punishing him would be allowed as the crime is not of a religious nature per se, but rather he is spreading corruption in society. In these instances religion isn’t invoked to support the punishment, however in instances where there is a theological underpinning or context in the act, such as apostasy, is it possible for such a person to be punished in an era of truce and dissimulation? The 6th Imam says: “it is not allowed for a person to kill a disbeliever or nawāsib whilst in a state of dissimulation unless they have committed murder or are spreading corruption in the land … and upholding dissimulation in the land of dissimulation is obligatory.” Shaykh Sadūq, al-Khisāl, p. 607

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kadhim said:

The forms talked about in, for example, al-Kafi vol 7 in Kitab al-Hudud

Unfortunately the hadiths aren't available on thaqalayn.net

I found something interesting on wikishia

 

Quote

 

Jurists have made distinctions between hadd and ta'zir, including the following:

  • The amount of hadd is specified in shari'a, but the specification of the amount and quality of ta'zir is left to the shari'a ruler. However, ta'zir should not outrun hadds for similar crimes.
  • Things such as the nature of the crime, how it is done, the criminal, the victim of the crime, the time, and the place affect the amount and the quality of punishments in ta'zir.
  • Ta'zir aims to punish and reform the criminal, but hadd aims to protect the common interests of the society.
  • Ta'zir will not be enforced after repentance, unlike some hadds.
  • Ta'zir can be forgiven, unlike hadd.[6]
  • Intercession and bails can be accepted in ta'zir, unlike hadd.[7]

 

  •  

So I'll make it clear that I'm not talking about ta'zir, I'm talking about hadd, and whatever the sharia sanctions. Specifically if a person were to go to the point of no repentance

Quote

 

 

It is commonly agreed by the Mujtahids that if a person confesses four times but repents before the execution of sentence, the Judge has the authority either to impose penalty or cancel it. The above report also indicates that the Imam (‘a) did not pursue the sentence. However, the sentence cannot be cancelled after the testimony of four just witnesses. - greater sins chapter about homosexuality

 

I tried to find it for adultery, I couldn't so I used the homosexuality example. So my example is if a person for example after the testimony of four witnesses(which is very difficult and requires the perpetrators to have committed the deed in public) they would be killed, would you agree with it?

Quote

 

Since sodomy is a greater crime than adultery and its evils are worse, the punishment for sodomy is also more severe than that of adultery according to the Islamic law. Islam prescribes capital punishment for the active as well as the passive partner in the crime. If both are major and sane, both of them have to be killed. The active partner is beheaded with the sword or killed by stoning or burnt alive or thrown from a height with the hands and the legs tied. These are the ways prescribed for punishing the criminal, but it is at the discretion of the Judge to determine the method. Similarly, the method adopted for the death of the passive partner is also determined by the Qazi.

According to Amir ul-Mu’minin ‘Ali (‘a), a person who has committed this sin must also be burnt after being killed.

 

these are the punishments if a person has committed a crime. Obviously I'm not going to claim that these are the only punishments, I have absolutely no idea, I would have to ask my marja but at least in greater sins these are the examples given which are prescribed. To a non-muslim these seem barbaric, would you guys have a problem with this. 

also additional note, my knowledge is actually very small, I recognise I may have not thought this out very well, but I would like to contribute and start off this discussion as long as the discourse is civil :)

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Why is no one on this topic with about 100+ posts not considering to talk about the stabber in question, Hadi Matar? Who is he? Where did he come from? Is he a paid agent serving as a proxy for Iran? Or is he a paid agent for the US Government, or CIA t to serve as a false flag operation through the stabbing of Salman Rushdie in order to frame Iran for further negotiations and sanctions down the line?

Because the more I'm reading about this on the news the more the media is coming across pretty deceptive in concealing a lot of things about the stabber other than this fact, "He's a Lebanon born, pro-Iran, pro-Hezbollah, who sympathizes with Shia extremists". Is that it? Or is there more to the story that what is not being revealed by the US Media?

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1 hour ago, VoidVortex said:

Unfortunately the hadiths aren't available on thaqalayn.net

I found something interesting on wikishia

Oh sorry. Yeah. Ha. Yes, Thaqalayn skipped putting that volume on their site. FYI it’s as a pdf on hubeali.org.

1 hour ago, VoidVortex said:

these are the punishments if a person has committed a crime. Obviously I'm not going to claim that these are the only punishments, I have absolutely no idea, I would have to ask my marja but at least in greater sins these are the examples given which are prescribed. To a non-muslim these seem barbaric, would you guys have a problem with this. 

Well, along the same lines as the discussion in the Islamic law forum, I would tend to take the real lasting message of hudud to be the idea in general the idea of limits; that some acts need to be discouraged to limit how widespread they are. And not specifically cutting hands and whipping people and stoning people and killing them with swords and such. We can find less physical ways to discourage people today. 

I tend to think about the “blasphemy against the prophet” thing differently from the hudud issue though in that for the blasphemy thing, I don’t see the proof that was ever something meant to be punished, let alone with death. For example, you look in the book of hudud in al-Kafi, you don’t see it listed in the chapters of punishments.

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2 hours ago, Guest Brushstroke said:

Why is no one on this topic with about 100+ posts not considering to talk about the stabber in question, Hadi Matar? Who is he? Where did he come from? Is he a paid agent serving as a proxy for Iran? Or is he a paid agent for the US Government, or CIA t to serve as a false flag operation through the stabbing of Salman Rushdie in order to frame Iran for further negotiations and sanctions down the line?

Because the more I'm reading about this on the news the more the media is coming across pretty deceptive in concealing a lot of things about the stabber other than this fact, "He's a Lebanon born, pro-Iran, pro-Hezbollah, who sympathizes with Shia extremists". Is that it? Or is there more to the story that what is not being revealed by the US Media?

A lot of people in this thread believe that the stabbing was a good thing, so why would they have any incentive to believe it's a false flag? Also the fact that so many Muslims support this kind of thing makes it improbable that it was a false flag.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

i wouldn't be surprised if this was a three letter agency confidential informant plot where a vulnerable unstable kid was talked into something he wasn't planing on ever.

 I love the made for anti Iranian headlines,  Facebook with iranian politicians,  fake name of Hassan Mughniyah, a nice smearing of Hassan Nasrullah and Imad Mughniyah. Yeah young kid comes from Lebanon and just happens to be moody and depressed, his own mom disowns him immediately, became radicalized all that's missing for this lifetime special is Nancy McEwoen, a rx for SSRI's,  and a heroic role for Ben Affleck and  Sally fields.

@guest brushstroke

This kid of divorced parents, sounds moody and depressed most likely had a confidential informant handler or agent handler to push him into this.

He was never religious most of his life, suddenly became a knife wielding fanatic ready to lay down his life to kill a long forgotten pornographer and known sexual deviant.

The setting had not even the simplest of metal detectors, the man who had 3 million a yr in security was suddenly left alone , nearest armed LEO was off stage, I wonder if Rushdie will ever realize he was used and then setup like a sacrificial Lamb to be slaughtered.

Most recently US govt is losing leverage in JPCOA negotiations,  Israel is looking for another reason to get Litani River water,  and all of a sudden a complete nobody comes and provides a reason for anti Iranian and Anti South Lebanon( read Hezbullah) with UK papers with well researched articles and crafted headlines ready in 48 hours, to provide leverage for ....etc

 

While the virtue signaling on "our terrible barbarity"  is on full display,  sadly.

Realize as FDR said, if you read the newspaper headlines,  it's something we wanted you to read,  hence banning of PressTV, and RT and many other channels and outlets in the fake free press countries.

It's also these fake beacons of freedom who imprison Assange, and John Kirikaou who are complete hypocrites, who slaughter Shias with a satanic glee,  that we are supposed to impress by condemning our Marjae, who have given their lives to our Imam and Allah's Deen.

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23 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

@guest brushstroke

This kid of divorced parents, sounds moody and depressed most likely had a confidential informant handler or agent handler to push him into this.

He was never religious most of his life, suddenly became a knife wielding fanatic ready to lay down his life to kill a long forgotten pornographer and known sexual deviant.

The setting had not even the simplest of metal detectors, the man who had 3 million a yr in security was suddenly left alone , nearest armed LEO was off stage, I wonder if Rushdie will ever realize he was used and then setup like a sacrificial Lamb to be slaughtered.

Most recently US govt is losing leverage in JPCOA negotiations,  Israel is looking for another reason to get Litani River water,  and all of a sudden a complete nobody comes and provides a reason for anti Iranian and Anti South Lebanon( read Hezbullah) with UK papers with well researched articles and crafted headlines ready in 48 hours, to provide leverage for ....etc

 

While the virtue signaling on "our terrible barbarity"  is on full display,  sadly.

Realize as FDR said, if you read the newspaper headlines,  it's something we wanted you to read,  hence banning of PressTV, and RT and many other channels and outlets in the fake free press countries.

It's also these fake beacons of freedom who imprison Assange, and John Kirikaou who are complete hypocrites, who slaughter Shias with a satanic glee,  that we are supposed to impress by condemning our Marjae, who have given their lives to our Imam and Allah's Deen.

After reading this research that is now considered a fact,

https://www.globalresearch.ca/53-admitted-false-flag-attacks/5432931

I'm open to the idea that all this might be a false flag operation from either the Iranian Government, The US Government, The CIA, or The Israeli Intelligence to deceive the public from the bigger picture though I could be wrong for all I know. But it is fascinating to know the reality of False Flag Attacks.

Throughout the news and Twitter, stories of Rushdie's recovery have been strangely quick for something that is to be considered throughout the news as "serious" and "critical" injuries to the point of the strong possibility that he may not be able to talk. It's almost as if the people behind the scenes trying to help recover Rushdie knew already where exactly he will get stabbed so they could apply the proper treatment at haste. Consider me skeptical of how the medical field works, but wouldn't this take a much longer time of recovery for Rushdie's "serious and critical wounds" reported throughout the news? For an old man in his mid 70s he's making quite a hasty recovery for such "serious and critical wounds"

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/14/1117437519/salman-rushdie-condition-stabbing-recovery

"

Salman Rushdie, the renowned author who was brutally attacked two days ago, is slowly recovering after suffering stab wounds in the neck and chest, his family says.

"Though his life changing injuries are severe, his usual feisty & defiant sense of humour remains intact," the author's son, Zafar Rushdie, wrote in a statement on Twitter on Sunday.

The novelist was taken off a ventilator and able to speak "a few words," according to his son. However, Rushdie remains in critical condition, he added, and will stay in the hospital to receive "extensive ongoing medical treatment."

"

Perhaps you can say the news is just being hyperbolic about this issue, but still he's making quite an odd hasty recovery after such a seemingly brutal attack. Almost as if he isn't all THAT hurt though still serious injuries.

I'm beginning to have my doubts about Hadi Matar as his sentences is being considered way too light for someone who just attempted MURDER at broad daylight. To the point that the US court might just put him in jail and sooner than later he will be bailed as if nothing ever happened. Shouldn't he be put in Life Imprisonment given his status as a Muslim who tried to carry the Fatwa against Rushdie? Why do I get the feeling that all this is just an elaborate stage. A play, that is concocted by someone from the higher ups as a false flag operation to frame another nation for further negotiations, sanctions, or just straight up justifying themselves as victims in order to conquer other nations.

USA has a pretty long history of lying to the point of carrying out false flag operations in order to start wars.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2018/april/17/false-flags-are-real-us-has-a-long-history-of-lying-to-start-wars/

Perhaps this is what US will now move forward justifying themselves as victims in order to wage war at Iran.

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20 hours ago, Ethics said:

We live in an intertwined world. Of course the only time we should fight back is to defend ourselves or our lands. But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) prohibits violence in any other situation.

Salam at least you agree that that this is at least a two way highway or more than that  which  action of anyone whether good or bad in any place of world affects others in other side of world which due that evil deed of Rushdie has affected ouselves & our lands  which also according to both of of Sunni & Shia narrations  our prophet (pbu) has higher staus than all of us so defending him in any price is higher or at least is in similar  fashion of defending  ourselves or our lands.

Quote

The Prophet is closer to the faithful than their own souls, and his wives are their mothers. The blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah than the [other] faithful and Emigrants, barring any favour you may do your comrades. This has been written in the Book. (6)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/33:6

Quote

"... I am among Ahlul-Bayt whom Allah has made their love obligatory for any Muslim when He revealed to His Prophet (S): "Say: I don’t ask you any wage except to love my near kin. And if anyone earns any good We shall give Him an increase of good (Qur’an 42:23).”

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/reward-loving-ahlul-bayt

On 8/15/2022 at 10:29 AM, Ethics said:


No matter if the world starts burning all the qurans, insulting the prophets and imams, desecrating the kaaba and the holy shrines.. THE RELIGION OF ALLAH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL. For Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) sacrificed everything for it, and for Our Holy Imam (عليه السلام) being by our side.

sorry at laest it sounds for me likewise this "They said, ‘O Moses, we will never enter it so long as they remain in it. Go ahead, you and your Lord, and fight! We will be sitting right here.’ (24) " which I have concluded from your word that you think just by being silent in any case of insulting & mocking Islam & prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams (عليه السلام) &  desecrating the kaaba and the holy shrines so then only it's duty of Allah to protect all of them but respectfully in oppositin to you during emerging Daesh/ISIS in Syria & Iraq & their zionists plans for  insulting & mocking  Imams (عليه السلام) &  desecrating  the holy shrines It has been proven we must also engage in defending from  Islam & prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams (عليه السلام) &   the kaaba and the holy shrineswhich after showing our strong will & sacrifice for defending all of them so then we will have support of Allah in our side against all enemies of Islam which it has been proven in our fights with zionists in 33 day war & insimilar fashion in our fight with Daesh/ISIS as zionists with muslim disguise .

Quote

They said, ‘O Moses, we will never enter it so long as they remain in it. Go ahead, you and your Lord, and fight! We will be sitting right here.’ (24) He said, ‘My Lord! I have no power over [anyone] except myself and my brother, so part us from the transgressing lot.’ (25) He said, ‘It shall be forbidden them for forty years: they shall wander about in the earth. So do not grieve for the transgressing lot.’ (26)

IUVM ARCHIVE | Holy Shrine Defenders

In 2006, the Israeli regime launched a military attack against Lebanon. Israel’s purpose in this attack was to destroy Hezbollah and change the composition of Lebanon's population.

Israel killed more than one thousand Lebanese citizens. 30% of the victims were children.

Hezbollah retaliated to defend the Lebanese people, and they inflicted heavy damages on Israel:

Economic damage: $ 3.5 billion
Damage to the Chamber of Commerce: $ 1.4 billion
One fourth of jobs experienced the risk of bankruptcy
Number of soldiers killed: 121
Number of soldiers wounded: 1,244
More than 4,000 missiles struck the occupied territories
20 Merkava tanks were destroyed
One Sa'ar 5-class corvette was sunk
One helicopter was shot down
The decades-long myth of the Zionist regime's invincibility was shattered
 

http://english.khamenei.ir/d/2020/08/15/3/23219.jpg

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/7858/Damages-inflicted-on-the-Israeli-regime-in-the-33-Day-War

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:24

 

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11 hours ago, It's me hello said:

The perception of Islam is changed. If you actually want Islam to grow, then you have to appeal to people. You don't appeal to people with modern sensibilities by stabbing your opponents to death for speech.

Salam people with modern sensibilties have admired KSA for beheading & crucification of Shias in public which most modern nation of world is America which it shows completly supports KSA in any case of beheading & crucification of Shia muslims 

11 hours ago, It's me hello said:

The shias have been slaughtered because they were too afraid to stab a second-rate author to death? Give a comparable example, I'm actually unaware of anything like this happening.

one example is Shia Muslims in KSA & Yemen which KSA beheads , crucifies & bombs them based on books of lesser than a "second-rate author"

11 hours ago, It's me hello said:

The perception of Islam is changed. If you actually want Islam to grow, then you have to appeal to people. You don't appeal to people with modern sensibilities by stabbing your opponents to death for speech.

this is clear in holy Quran which perception of it as as source of Islam has not been changed nevertheless perception of people is changing everytime which want to appeal whole of people  of world which it's totally & practically impossible because either prohet Muhammad (pbu) or Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have not tried to appeal all of people which insimilar fashion Imam Mahdi (aj) won't try to appeal all of people because at any era some people will love them & some people will hate them until judgment day .

Quote

Never will the Jews be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you followed their creed. Say, ‘Indeed it is the guidance of Allah which is [true] guidance.’ And should you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you will not have against Allah any guardian or helper. (120)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:120

12 hours ago, Ibn-e-Muhammad said:

Pacifism is the belief that all wars and violence are unjustifiable and every dispute should be settled by peaceful means. 

I don't think I have ever advocated for anything like that. 

This is practically & rationally is wrong definition of Pacifism because although  prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) have been best  example of pacifists in world but they have had to engage in bloody wars which for some people it has been unjustifiable violence also in similar fashion  Imam Mahdi (aj) as person who will bring totall pacifism to world  , so right after his reappearnce he will be engaged in wars with Muslims because he can't appeal them so therfore he will show a level of violnce to enemies of Allah so then himself which even some of his loyal followers will criticize him for his brutality  against enemies of Allah & himself.

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3 hours ago, It's me hello said:

A lot of people in this thread believe that the stabbing was a good thing, so why would they have any incentive to believe it's a false flag? Also the fact that so many Muslims support this kind of thing makes it improbable that it was a false flag.

We don't support stabbing act but on the other hand we support reviving Fatwa of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) about punishing a clear enemy of Allah & Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Islam nevertheless we belive that public stabbing & showing a bad image from islam & Muslims  has been wrong which it can be a false falg too so therfore degrading of punishing open enemy of Allah & Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Islam into just a bloody stabbing by anyone is totally false .

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The Reward of Loving Ahlul-Bayt

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ألا ومن مات على حب آل محمد ، مات على السنة

And verily he who dies with love of the family of Muhammad, has died on Sunnah.

 ألا ومن مات على بغض آل محمد جاء يوم القيامة مكتوب بين عينيه "آيس من رحمة الله"

And no doubt! The one who dies with the HATE of the family of Muhammad, will arrive in the day of judgment while it is printed on his forehead that he is desperate from the Mercy of Allah.

ألا ومن مات على بغض آل محمد ، مات كافرأ 

Behold! He who dies with the hate of the family of Muhammad, has died unbeliever.

ألا ومن مات على بغض آل محمد ، لم يشم رائحة الجنة

And verily he who dies with the hate of the family of Muhammad, will never hear the smell of Paradise.

Sunni references:

• Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din Muhammad Ibn Umar al-Razi, Pub. in Egypt (1357/1938), under commentary of verse 42:23, Part 27, pp. 165-166.

• Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari

• Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha’labi

***

Fakhr al-Razi and others mentioned the above tradition under the commentary of the following verse of Qur’an, in which Allah tell his Messenger:

"(O Prophet) tell (people) I don’t ask you any wage (in return for my prophethood) except to love my near kin. And if anyone earns any good We shall give Him an increase of good (in return for it)”(Qur’an 42:23).

قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ

It has been widely reported by the Sunni commentators of the Holy Qur’an that:

Ibn Abbas narrated: When the above verse (42:23) was revealed, the companions asked: "O’ the Messenger of Allah! Who are those near kin whose love Allah has made obligatory for us?”Upon that the Prophet (S) said: "‘Ali, Fatimah, and their two sons.”He (S) repeated this sentence thrice.

Sunni references:

1. Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Part 27, pp 165-166

2. Tafsir al-Tha’labi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

3. Tafsir al-Tabari, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, under verse 42:23

4. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

5. Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, under commentary of verse 42:23

6. Tafsir al-Baidhawi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

7. Tafsir al-Kalbi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

8. al-Madarik, in connection with verse 42:23

9. Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p25

10. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,

11. al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p259

12. Shawahid al-Tanzeel, Hakim Hasakani, al-Hanafi, v2, p132

13. Many others such as Ibn Abi Hatam, al-Tabarani, etc.

Then the Prophet (S) continued:

"Verily Allah has dedicated my wage (of prophethood) to love of my Ahlul-Bayt, and I shall question you about it on the day of judgment."

Sunni references:

• Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p26

• al-Sirah, by al-Mala

 

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/reward-loving-ahlul-bayt

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, It's me hello said:

A lot of people in this thread believe that the stabbing was a good thing, so why would they have any incentive to believe it's a false flag? Also the fact that so many Muslims support this kind of thing makes it improbable that it was a false flag.

False flags are very rare, in reality, though they do happen. To plan and carry out a false flag requires an extreme amount of planning and resources, which are out of reach for most except the very wealthy and powerful. You can't assume something is a false flag without evidence. There is no evidence that I have seen that this is a false flag. 

The IRI has denied any connection to this attack, and I would tend to believe that since they have nothing to gain from it at this point, being they are in a very sensitive phase of negotiations with the P5+1 over the reinstatement of the 2015 nuclear deal. It could have been someone on the other side Mossad/CIA/MI6 trying to use this attack to scuttle the deal. But again, there is no evidence for that, so we can't assume that is the case. 

We can only see it for what it is, at this point. A brother who believes it is his duty to carry out the fatwa of Imam, so that's what he did. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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