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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Salaam,

Posting a topic after a long time :)

So a dear brother ( @sunni muslim ) asked why is the "Quran and Sunnah" not enough. This is a fair question and deserves some thought so here are somethings to think about.

  • It's important to note that whoever believes the quran is enough (Hasbona kitaballah) is wrong because authentic Sunni narrations confirm the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) specifically mentioned "Quran and Sunnah". Denying a clear edict from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) makes such a person munafiq? Why did some prominent sahaba reject this authentic edict from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and only accept Quran? Are they from the hypocrites then?
     
  • Authentic sunni narrations also tell us that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) confirmed "Quran and AhlulBayt" as well. If the Prophet said "quran and sunnah" and "quran and ahlulbayt", then why do sunnis insist on "quran and sunnah" only? Are sunnis openly rejecting another edict of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Surely if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said both, then the shia and sunni stance should be "Quran + AhlulBayt + Sunnah". Anything less would be rejecting the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), would it not?
    The shia stance on this is very clear. We take the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as confirmed/explained by the AhlulBayt. 

     
  • Did the Prophet say
    "Quran AND (Sunnah OR AhlulBayt)",
    "QURAN OR (Sunnah OR AhlulBayt)";
    "QURAN AND Sunnah AND AhlulBayt";

     
  • Let's ignore the AhlulBayt for the moment and focus on the sunnah. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said "I am leaving behind Quran and Sunnah so you don't go astray." Immediately after the demise of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Caliph Abu Bakr and subsequently Caliph Umar prohibit the narrations of sunnah, burn down written sunnah (500+ narrations at least). Did Abu Bakr and Umar purposely defy the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and in effect lead the Ummah astray. The argument put forth is that the Caliphs did not want sahaba to narrate wrong traditions. But these sahaba would have heard the narrations and seen the sunnah first hand. Surely adl-e-sahaba would mean no erroneous traditions within the first 5 yrs of the demise of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
     
  • Caliph Abu Bakr burned 500+ narrations for fear of being wrong. Could it be that he remembered the narration "Prophets down leave inheritance" incorrectly. 

This is a conundrum. If the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said "Quran and Sunnah" and Abu Bakr + Umar clearly denied the transmission of sunnah, what does it make them? How could the 2 closest sahaba reject a clear edict of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

I would love to hear some other thoughts on this topic.

P.S. @sunni muslim - I did not want to derail the other thread but our conversation was going to go in circles:

Sunni Muslim: why is "quran and sunnah" not enough
ShiaMan: because the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said "Quran and AhlulBayt"
Sunni Muslim: he said both but tell me why "quran and sunnah" is not enough
ShiaMan: errrr, because he said both???

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:
  • Authentic sunni narrations also tell us that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) confirmed "Quran and AhlulBayt" as well. If the Prophet said "quran and sunnah" and "quran and ahlulbayt", then why do sunnis insist on "quran and sunnah" only? Are sunnis openly rejecting another edict of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Surely if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said both, then the shia and sunni stance should be "Quran + AhlulBayt + Sunnah". Anything less would be rejecting the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), would it not?
    The shia stance on this is very clear. We take the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as confirmed/explained by the AhlulBayt. 

     
  • Did the Prophet say
    "Quran AND (Sunnah OR AhlulBayt)",
    "QURAN OR (Sunnah OR AhlulBayt)";
    "QURAN AND Sunnah AND AhlulBayt";

Salam brother, Thanks for adding the thread after long period of time.

I like to add the following simple words:

1-  Hadith of "Quran and Ahl alabayat" is only included in Sunni Sihah sitta that are 6 authentic books for sunni as per their belief. The other narration "Quran and Sunnah" does not exist in these 6 books.

2-  A simple result comes in this way if for the sake of analysis we take the both hadith as shown below:

             Quran and Sunnah

             Quran and Ahl albayt

 ___________________________________________

             Quran, Sunna through Ahl albayat

The hadith conclusion is Book of Allah ie quran as first sources of guidance.

The second source is that The (True) Sunna that comes through Ahl albayt alone.

The matter is clear for us.

A link is mentioned if any one like to see that how we can follow the prophet through Quran and Ahl albayt with his true sunnah:

wasalam

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And what to do if there arise a contradiction in Quran & Sunnah? For instance, the wudu mentioned in Quran as follows:

 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَينِ 

5:6

And the Sunnah is mentioned like this in their so called sahih hadith books:

1. "al-Bukhaari (163) and Muslim (241) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stayed behind us on a journey and then caught up with us, and we were late in praying ‘Asr. We started doing wudoo’ and wiping out feet, and he called out at the top of his voice: “Woe to the heels from the fire” two or three times

2. Muslim (242) narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw a man who had not washed his heels and he said, “Woe to the heels from the Fire.” 

3. Ibn Khuzaymah said: If wiping were sufficient to discharge the obligation, there would have been no warning of the Fire in this case. 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said:  

4. There are mutawaatir reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which describe his wudoo’ and state that he washed his feet. He is the one who explained the commands of Allaah. There is no report from anyone among the Sahaabah which differs from that, except from ‘Ali, Ibn ‘Abbaas and Anas, but it was narrated that they retracted that:

5. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Abi Layla said: The companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are unanimously agreed that the feet should be washed. Narrated by Sa’eed ibn Mansoor.

(Note: I am glad to see that even in their own books it is mentioned the stance of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., report that he retracted from his stance is useless for us as Imams has taught the wudu as it is mentioned in Quarn)

As the case is mentioned here, the Ahlul Sunnah has taken the sunnah from companions instead of from the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام. When it comes to wudu, it appears that none of the two weighty things are sufficient for them.

 

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Posted (edited)

Never understood this obsession that both sunni and shias have with the hadiths. A lot of the hadiths just say horrible things. Hadiths are the reason why youths in Gaza blow themselves up expecting 72 virgins waiting for them.

Hadiths are also giving ammunition to non-muslims who wants to insult Islam. Hadiths are also one of the reasons why so many muslim countries are backwards

Edited by Dubilex
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2 hours ago, Dubilex said:

Hadiths are also giving ammunition to non-muslims who wants to insult Islam. Hadiths are also one of the reasons why so many muslim countries are backwards

Salam False & fabricated Hadiths are cause of these anyway we have many Hadith about learning & education & self improvment & social improvement from Ahlulabayt (عليه السلام)  but on the other hand  there is too much false & fabricated Hadiths in Sunni books in name of Sunnah which are cause of insulting to Islam & kepping muslim countries backward  which a country likewise Iran which follows both of Quran & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) through their narration is a developing country in many aspects .

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3 hours ago, Dubilex said:

Hadiths are also one of the reasons why so many muslim countries are backwards

Strange statement.  If anything it's the lack of implementation of Islamic values and principles which has caused Muslim countries to regress. 

Which hadith instructed Gulf Arab dictators to abandon Palestine, collaborate with Israel, hoard wealth and waste money on non productive projects?

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7 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

It's a sort of self defeating argument because the sunnah would entail following the prophets actions and instructions which in turn point towards following the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) after him ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Unless all such narrations are removed, burned, destroyed that point to following the AhlulBayt.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/13/2022 at 12:56 PM, Mahdavist said:

Strange statement.  If anything it's the lack of implementation of Islamic values and principles which has caused Muslim countries to regress. 

Which hadith instructed Gulf Arab dictators to abandon Palestine, collaborate with Israel, hoard wealth and waste money on non productive projects?

It's a very common excuse to blame EVERYTHING bad on the political leaders. It's a very convenient cop out. Kinda like an obese person putting 100% blame on McDonalds for being obese, and not taking personal responsibility.

Horrendous practices which go against the Quran, such as female circumcision, honor killings and child marriages are made halal by hadiths. I don't know what Gulf leaders have to do with all of this.

The atrocities of ISIS are made halal by hadiths. ISIS didn't just appear out of nowhere. Until the ummah starts looking inward and examine their own flaws, the muslim ummah will always be in a backward state

Edited by Dubilex
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18 minutes ago, Dubilex said:

Horrendous practices which go against the Quran, such as female circumcision, honor killings and child marriages are made halal by hadiths. I don't know what Gulf leaders have to do with all of this.

If something goes against the Quran as you claim it does then it can't be 'made halal'

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

If something goes against the Quran as you claim it does then it can't be 'made halal'

Tell that to all the muslims who fanatically adheres to those anti-quran hadiths

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On 8/13/2022 at 3:39 AM, Dubilex said:

Never understood this obsession that both sunni and shias have with the hadiths. A lot of the hadiths just say horrible things. Hadiths are the reason why youths in Gaza blow themselves up expecting 72 virgins waiting for them.

Hadiths are also giving ammunition to non-muslims who wants to insult Islam. Hadiths are also one of the reasons why so many muslim countries are backwards

Brother, by the same logic because the Quran is poorly understood and it can be interpreted to say horrible things we should "gag" it. No, it is the responsibility of every muslim to make honest earnest enquiries about the interpretation logic and reason contained within hadith and Quran. This is what forums like this are all about. And when we do so with the intention to educate and be educated we are brought closer to Islam and Iman. 

That said, hadith are more complex because they have not been protected from change like the Quran. We can however reflect on their logic and reason as it pertains to the religion of islam (not the make believe designed to impugn the character of individuals by both sides). I am more convinced of the superiority of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) by Sunni text than by Shia text. Because I have had to understand the historical and political context within which islam split. 

We are muslims, our faith is based on logic and reason, not blind belief. It requires intellectual inquire to prevent things like "the father son and holy spirit", to questions the asinine logic of companions killing each other but all promised heaven and the the practices of cursing women who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) refers to as "the mothers of believers". This is a means of ensuring islam is not lost. That one man stood alone in the deserts of Iraq protesting the corruption of the faith of his grandfather can be heard today forcing us to answer questions and them to question their logic ... it is beautiful because "This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful of God" 2:2

 

Salam

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On 8/13/2022 at 4:26 PM, Mahdavist said:

Strange statement.  If anything it's the lack of implementation of Islamic values and principles which has caused Muslim countries to regress. 

Which hadith instructed Gulf Arab dictators to abandon Palestine, collaborate with Israel, hoard wealth and waste money on non productive projects?

This.

Exactlyyy.

If Muslims start implementing Islam in practical life through guidance from Quran and authentic hadith, they will automatically be able to find and abandon the false hadith.

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