Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

[sunni muslim]

Twelver :- it is obligatory upon Allah to appoint an imam at all times. 

Sunni :- why? 

Twelver:- One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam

Sunni:- then where he is? 

Twelvee:- um ah, they guide by the command of allah. 

sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf

Twelver :- um ah it's the rijs in you which is keeping you away from ahlul bayt, um ah silence is the best reply to a fool, um ah khidr and isa, um ah, your lineage  bla bla bla

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by sunni muslim

[Guest Leadership: Man vs God]

45 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Why are you making fun of 1200 years ghaybah of our imam, prophet (عليه السلام) was in ghaybah for  40 years of his life 

               -- shia

Literally, people taking twelvers seriously is beyond me 

Don't you dare make fun of the event of Saqifa along with our Sunni Islamic Caliphate system through the Ummayyads and Abbasids that has nothing to do with establishing Leadership/Governance for the community bounded by the religion of Allah you self-righteous, hypocritical, Kaafir, Raafidha Shia Muslims. DIE ALREADY you Raafidha minorities causing fitnah within our poor and innocent communities in the majority.

                   -- sunni

Literally, people taking sunnis from all schools of thought, especially the Saalafis seriously are beyond me.

Hope you get my point.

It doesn't hurt to research and understand through all schools of thought of a religion, be they from the majority or minority. Be they Orthodox or Heretical. Truth of God doesn't care which side it takes. But it seems like not only does it hurt you, but you wish to take offense from all of this that you deem it bulls**t in the grand scheme of things.

Listen, if you wish to argue, at least argue in good faith because you have done quite the opposite against your Raafidha opponents throughout. Otherwise, don't bother and leave them alone.

It's understandable if you hate such Raafidhas with a burning passion to the point of committing genocide and creating pogroms upon them in Sunni Islamic nations to save your community, but that's not really helping the image of the truthfulness of Islam to the ignorant masses now is it.

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Literally, people taking twelvers seriously is beyond me 

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Yusuf Ali

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. (6:125)

[Muslim2010]

Sunni:   I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Shia: Before going ahead i need to know what intellectual capacity do you have to understand the basic concepts described in the verses of quran and the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Sunni: The Immama is false and the occultation is false and contradictory to it.

Shia: Right please inform me why the first caliph was chosen after the prophet at saqeefa against the prophet sunna? When the prophet has left as per sunni no successor after him?

Sunni: No your concept of Imam is false and ocultation is contradictory to it.

Shia: Why the first caliph after the prophet chose the second caliph as his successor? and the prophet did not leave the nation with a successor? 

Sunni: Shia concept of immamat is false and my caliphate is true. The ocultation is contradictory to the immamah . I cannot accept it.

Shia: Why the selection of the third caliph was made by a shura of 6 persons? Why the condition of the acceptance of the innovations made in the religion by first two caliphs was included in addition to quran and Sunna? 

Sunni: I do not know , my concept of the caliphate selection is true and my claiph remains infront of us to guide but yours concept of Imamamt though describe in verses of quran for Ibrahim (عليه السلام) but i do not take it. My imam is only the prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Shia: Why the selection of 4th caliph was made openly by all the people instead of using any sword at saeefa, or appointment by the second caliph or shrua of 6 persons?

Sunni: I like my concept of caliphate is true as all the companions are just and they are going to paradise, yes some of them killed others by sword but for me they are all righteous and just / Adil. Your concept of following i imams from the family of the prophet is false and ocultation is not believed by me.

Shia: thus the above small specimen shows such sunni do not have any intellectual capacity to get and absorb the concept described in the verses of quran or hadith of the prophet s..aw.

wasalam

Edited October 6, 2022 by Muslim2010

[ShiaMan14]

12 hours ago, Guest Leadership: Man vs God said:

Is there a person mentioned in the Quran before the advent of Muhammad and the 12 Imams who is not a Prophet of God per say, but is an Imam for his community by God through a Prophet?

The closest entity I could think of would be this Zulqarnain mentioned in the Quran where he is not a Prophet of God, but is a Righteous King who might've been chosen by God through an unnamed Prophet of God from that era of time to be the Imam of his community while the unnamed Prophet of God living in Zulqarnain's time served as a priestly advisor for him to rule over the community. The closest identity of Zulqarnain might be Cyrus the Great who was simply a man who championed monotheism and not a Prophet of God, but he might've been chosen by God through an unnamed Prophet of God from his era of time (possibly Prophet Zoroaster and his descendent prophets after him since Zoroastrianism is technically monotheistic during Cyrus the Great's era) to be an Imam for his community.

But what do I know for sure. The whole thing about Zulqarnain along with Cyrus the Great might as well be speculation at best with not enough decisive evidence to corroborate with the history Mankind currently has in place.

What about Hz. Khidr? Hz Musa was asked to follow him and Hz Khidr was not a prophet (although there is no consensus on this).

 

12 hours ago, Guest Leadership: Man vs God said:

I do understand the Shia position when it comes to Leadership guiding the community bounded under a religion. Your understanding of "Imamate" is essentially a Divinely Appointed Leader chosen by God through a Prophet. I think the issue that @sunni muslim might be going through is that when reading the Quran and understanding the context revolving around Abraham being an Imam for his community is that he was a Prophet as well. So maybe for some Muslims in order for that individual to be an Imam for that community bounded by a religion from God, he has to be a Prophet (be it nabi or rasul) as well. Reading the stories of the previous scriptures only affirms Prophets (be they rasul or nabi) as Imams strictly speaking unless I'm overlooking a verse.

However, if that same Prophet chose someone who is not a Prophet to be an Imam for the community is where the issue arises.

For some people, to be an Imam you have to be a Prophet of God as well like Abraham and Jesus. So far in Shia Islam, I see more of a dualism position here where a person can be an Imam chosen by God through a Prophet after his eventual passing, but not necessarily be a Prophet of God. Ali ibne Abu Talib was not a Prophet of God, but he is an Imam according to Shia Islam from God through Muhammad based on the Tradition of Ghadeer-e-Khum.

Whereas for some people they can't accept this dualism position of Imamate, and are more willing to believe that a person has to be both an Imam and a Prophet of God based on how far the Quran is telling the story of the past generations before the advent of Muhammad. Unless there is proof that both the position of Prophethood and Imamate are separate and distinct from one another in the Quran, all I see is that a Prophet can be an Imam as well so maybe they must go together and must never be separated. If Prophethood dies with Muhammad, then so should Imamate.

 

There a number of ayahs in the Quran that mention "good" imams and "bad" imams as in "these imams will lead you astray" or "these will cause you to go to hell.." That alone is sufficient to understand that Prophethood and Imamate are separate "offices". What do you think?

 

 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Why are you making fun of 1200 years ghaybah of our imam, prophet (عليه السلام) was in ghaybah for  40 years of his life 

               -- shia

Literally, people taking twelvers seriously is beyond me 

Shia: Hz. Khidr has been alive for 2,500+ years.
Sunni: Alhumdulillah

Shia: Hz. Isa has been alive for 2,000+ years.
Sunni: Alhumdulillah

Shia: A rock ran away with Musa's clothes.
Sunni: Of course. I love rocks

Shia: 12th Imam is alive for 1,200+ years.
Sunni: Oh no, this is kufr. I am going to go blow up a mosque......aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhh

That about sums up sunni (il)logic.

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Twelver :- it is obligatory upon Allah to appoint an imam at all times. 

Sunni :- why? 

Twelver:- One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam

Sunni:- then where he is? 

Twelvee:- um ah, they guide by the command of allah. 

sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf

Twelver :- um ah it's the rijs in you which is keeping you away from ahlul bayt, um ah silence is the best reply to a fool, um ah khidr and isa, um ah, your lineage  bla bla bla

 

For all the rhetoric, at the end of the day your most prolific narrator of hadith is:

[Guest 12345]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf

Salam,

So, it goes against God's lutf (kindness/grace) to leave a divinely chosen leader/Imam in hiding, but ending Prophethood with out a successor isn't?

I really hope you see the contradiction here, brother.

[Irfani313]

7 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

Salam,

So, it goes against God's lutf (kindness/grace) to leave a divinely chosen leader/Imam in hiding, but ending Prophethood with out a successor isn't?

I really hope you see the contradiction here, brother.

[layman]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:10 PM, sunni muslim said:

It is the twelver who can't understand the concept of imamah. First the shia say there must be an imam at all times to become a guide in religious matters so that the Quran and sunnah transmit to us without any mistake.  They believe that the imam must be infallible because he is the sole representative of Islam and sole expounder of it. Then they also believe that for some mysterious reason the imam went into occultation for 1200 years, within which shia couldn't benifit from him anything in religious matters. Nor in hadith, nor in quranic sciences, fiqh, not in anything. This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. 

 

Exactly. You just destroyed the concept of imamah yourself. This is what we are trying to make you understand. There is no need of an infallible imam at all times which is in contrast to your concept of imamah, that there must be an imam at all times to guide the humanity. 

Guidance comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to us through whatever means Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will it to happen.  Prophet or Imams are mean. The guidance from Prophet or Imam can be obtained not necessary through be physically present in front of us.

We, as muslims believe in Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as the Prophet and he is no way physically present.  But, we feel guided to hold on a belief in Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Most muslims read physical Quran, but the guidance received from it differ.  Some don't even received guidance after reading the physical Quran in front of us.

Islam emphasizes on having spiritual link to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Imams.  This where the real guidance comes to believers.  Spiritual guidance has no limits and it reaches to anyone who is willing to have trust in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Imams.

Those who have spiritual guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Imams will perform Salah (prayer) with different understanding than those who has no spiritual link.

If the current "Imam is present and hidden physically", it will not be any issue to receive guidance.  It is readily available to everyone.  It is us who are not ready.  Tawheed, Nubuwwah and Imamah are present and hidden physically.  Even Baitullah is hidden, even though physically there is cube structure in Makkah (called Kaaba).

@sunni muslimyou are physically present but the real you are hidden.  Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and those who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allowed know the real you!

Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was made Imam to mankind...was him made available to all mankind or his Imamah was made available to mankind?

Wallahualam

[ShiaMan14]

[Muslim2010]

22 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

For all the rhetoric, at the end of the day your most prolific narrator of hadith is:

Brother have you not mentioned a less count of cats in this picture? Can more cats be added in this picture? Added Just for clarification please. 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Muslim2010

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother have you not mentioned a less count of cats in this picture? Can more cats be added in this picture? Added Just for clarification please. 

 

hahaha. You are right. I chose 3 for 3 reasons:

1) There are 3 shaitans

2) Keeping this one to myself

3) Arabic doesnt just have single and plural, but it has single, double and plural....so 3 kittens implies lots of kittens.

[Hasani Samnani]

Ok you guys @ShiaMan14 and @Muslim2010 are killing it ...

The guy has turned tail and run...just like certain sahaba as soon as they saw an actively swinging sword.

It doesn't help that @Irfani313is also piling on.

@layman , Allah has give you great sabr, but at this point i would suggest you give it up bro. 

The reason for the pile on is that the above brothers and others have brought Quranic ayat, Mutawatir hadith,  Hadith al Qudsi, , numerous sunni sources and the guy can't seem to comprehend and continue just attempts pathetic trolling.

I gave up like 4  pages ago  and two trolling topics ago but he persisted   even after getting banned as a different avatar.

It's obvious that Allah is trying to open his heart and ( hence his constant visits to a Shia website),  his eyes and ears,  but he has them furiously shut and fingers in his ears.

If you're so adamant in your belief system stick to ummah.com or something., why keep trolling Shia sites.

Summun, Bookmun and Omyun.

Inshallah there will come a time when he finally gets it, ...but I think he's just a little kid, who was given no guidance by his parents and was likely thrown Into a horrible one room madressa. There some Saudi sponsored Sheikh introduced to the most vile of the anti Shia screeds available and he latched on like a little.....uhh... uhhh... kitten.

We still pray for his Hadayat.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Hasani Samnani

[Abu Nur]

From the recent article of iqraonline.net. Sheik Mufeed (رضي الله عنه) answer:

Epistle Seven: There is No Need for a Hidden Imām Because His Existence is Like Non-Existence: No One Is Able to Meet with Him and He Cannot Establish God’s Laws. He Cannot Guide Anyone, Enjoin Good/Forbid Evil, or Call Towards Jihād.

Occultation does not contradict the need of having someone who is the guardian of the Sharī’ah and the creed. Can you not see that the Shī’ah themselves have taken up the responsibility for dissemination of religious teachings, such that he himself does not need to do so? The same applies to administering corporal punishments and application of religious edicts; sometimes, the representatives of the Imāms are given the discretion to implement them. This same logic applies to the issue of jihād; in fact, this applied even in the times of the Prophets, who had appointed deputees to command their batallions.

Therefore, whenever there is someone who stands up to represent the creed on the Imām’s behalf, the immediate responsibility is alleviated from the Imām (عليه السلام) and he may remain covert.[22] In contrast, when all individuals refuse to do so and become perverse in their religious duties, he must re-appear to assume the responsibility for himself.

It is precisely because of this reason that his existence becomes rationally necessary; his non-existence or demise would preclude him from protecting the religion and therefore it is reprehensible.

Secondly, given that the Imām has gone into occultation due to the threat of enemy forces, the culpability for the non-implementation of the creed and the stagnation of its edicts falls on these oppressors themselves. However, if God caused the Imām to die or eliminated him, the responsibility for the deviation of the ummah would fall upon God the Almighty Himself. It is of course completely unacceptable that God should precipitate ruination or cause disorder.[23]

 

Epistle Nine: The Imamites Profess That God Almighty Has Hidden the Imām Out of His Providence and They Believe That As Long as God Continues To Test Mankind, He Will Always Carry Out What Is Prudent For their Guidance and He Will Never Leave Their Religious Needs Unmet. This Directly Contradicts Their Claim that the Imām is the Completion of Religious Guidance and that He is the Securer of God’s Plan.

Al-Mufīd answers that what is in the public’s best interest (al-maṣlaḥah) varies with the situation and is not homogenous. Rather, when a wise individual carefully analyzes a situation seeking the best outcome, his plan will change in accordance with the circumstances. He proposes the example of God in holding his creation to task in recognizing his Unity and belief in his Prophets; by default, this is what is in their best interests. However, if they are constrained such that their lives would be threatened by openly declaring monotheism, it becomes their best interest to conceal this belief from others.                                 

This applies equally for the presence of the Imāms; they are in the public’s advantage so long as the nation obeys them and supports them; however, if the nation should turn their backs on the Imāms and seek to annihilate them, the nation’s best interest is in the occultation of the Imām.

Al-Mufīd then remarks that the Mu’tazilites, the Murji’ites, the Zaydites, and the Jabarites[26] all believe that the ummah’s best interest dictates selecting an Imām, however they relent that in the setting of oppression one is considered excused from doing so and the social interest (al-maṣlaḥah) is to abstain from selecting an Imām. He exclaims that the double standard is quite shocking here: while these adversaries make this allowance for themselves, they deem it contradictory when the Imamites propose the same in reference to the occultation.

As al-Mufīd states, God has allowed the occultation to take place, and this implies that this is the wiser decision and that it is more fitting for the management of worldly and religious affairs.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:32 AM, Zaidism said:

There is no faulty reasoning, absolute uprightness = not falling into any major sin, and not contradicting the decisive of the Quran, and what is Mutawwatir from the Sunnah.

How absolute uprightness is excluded from minority sins?

Quote

You act as if any similarity with Sunnism is somehow a failure in creed, rather it is indictive of how terribly reactionary your sect is. 

Not any, but those that clearly contradict the teaching of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). And no, it does not mean it is terribly reactionary in our sect, but how terribly different Sunnis are from the truth.

Quote

This is the tradition of Allah with those who have passed, do you deny that the sons of Israel inherited Prophethood, and scripture in particular members, and in the community?

The inheritance of prophethood is not something that is choosed by people but rather by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself. In the same method we believe that Imamah is only choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And the verse of 2:124 is the condition.
 

Quote

This inheritance culminated with the community of the Ahl al-Bayt, the sons of Lady Fatima (upon her be blessings, and peace). Allah, the Exalted, says: {Then We caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself [i.e., sins], and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allāh. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty}.

This interpretation is simple that talks about the Ummah of the Prophet. It is divided by three groups.  It is very weird logic to think that this verse indicate that three groups can have Imamah and one of them is the wrongdoers or he who wrongs himself, when the verse of 2:124 says no wrongdoer can inherit the Imamah.

Quote

Since you concede that the Imam does not guide, we then move to our follow up question which is what is your evidence that he even exists? As you may know, the Imam is not a necessary existent, rather he is contingent. Therefore, to appeal to the logical necessity of the Imam as your Salaf have done is not viable, this will be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt if you choose to take this route. 

The evidence of his existence is exactly how you found out companions x,y, z exist in past. History, narrations etc.

Quote

You cannot appeal to mystery, as you are making a tall claim by saying our salvation depends upon believing in Twelve designated Imams. At the very least, if you wish to go against the consensus of your scholar, and what is (falsely) attributed by Mass-transmission (from the Ghulat) to our great Imams of guidance al-Baqir, al-Sadiq, and the other greats from the sons of Imam Husayn who have suffered enough from your fabricated attributions. 

I'm not making such a claim.

Quote

Then, you will say that we are upon clear misguidance for rejecting them. 

Indeed. Misguidance and salvation is two different things.

Quote

You see how the matter instantly goes back to guidance, as you don't have a Nass to provide that designates your Imams.

Of course we have. Can you name one of our Imam (عليه السلام) that did not have any Nass?

Quote

You have conceded that your Imamah lacks active service to the Ummah, and once again have emphasized your agreement with me that it is bereft of guidance.

That is incorrect. From Sheikh Mufeed:

Occultation does not contradict the need of having someone who is the guardian of the Sharī’ah and the creed. Can you not see that the Shī’ah themselves have taken up the responsibility for dissemination of religious teachings, such that he himself does not need to do so? The same applies to administering corporal punishments and application of religious edicts; sometimes, the representatives of the Imāms are given the discretion to implement them. This same logic applies to the issue of jihād; in fact, this applied even in the times of the Prophets, who had appointed deputees to command their batallions.

Therefore, whenever there is someone who stands up to represent the creed on the Imām’s behalf, the immediate responsibility is alleviated from the Imām (عليه السلام) and he may remain covert.[22] In contrast, when all individuals refuse to do so and become perverse in their religious duties, he must re-appear to assume the responsibility for himself.

It is precisely because of this reason that his existence becomes rationally necessary; his non-existence or demise would preclude him from protecting the religion and therefore it is reprehensible.

Secondly, given that the Imām has gone into occultation due to the threat of enemy forces, the culpability for the non-implementation of the creed and the stagnation of its edicts falls on these oppressors themselves. However, if God caused the Imām to die or eliminated him, the responsibility for the deviation of the ummah would fall upon God the Almighty Himself. It is of course completely unacceptable that God should precipitate ruination or cause disorder.[23]

Quote

Sure:

Quran: Calls to establishing Hudud, and Shariah. No Imam present to do so.

History: No Imami denomination argued for 12 Imams until the creed was crystallized.

Pragmatism: No guidance, no benefit.

Hadith: No Hadith that designates 12 Imams.

Reason: Contradiction, and inconsistency.

Quran: Calls to establishing Hudud, and Shariah. No Imam present to do so.

And if there is no Imam present, it does not mean that establishing of Hudud, and Shariah is vanished and can not be still used in our time. They are just limited.

History: No Imami denomination argued for 12 Imams until the creed was crystallized.

We know about the narration of twelve successors but no one knew who are they but after the final one of them they were know.

Pragmatism: No guidance, no benefit.

False.

Hadith: No Hadith that designates 12 Imams.

If you mean that the sect to be correct then we need to have an hadith that tells all the Imams names, then such statement is logically invalid. Just because there is no hadith to mention their names it does not means that all the 12 that is designated are false.
 

---

Anyway my time is very limited, if you want to respond then do so, InshaAllah I will have time to read it. But I know very well your discussion in past and they are always very long and I really don't have time for it right now.

 

[Abu Nur]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:07 PM, sunni muslim said:

First get educated on the topic of imamah in order to debate me on this topic rather than wasting my time. Read any of your books of usool, and read the definition there. It says there must be an imam at all times to clarify as it is against Allah's lutf according to the shia. It is against their intellect that God will leave mankind without an imam at any given time.  According to them, there can be no time that earth can be without an infallible imam, so that he may clarify the religion, as it is against Allah's lutf that he will leave his religion without an infallible imam at any given time. So it does mean that he need to be present at all time. How the heck will he clarify when he is out of touch with humanity and muslims can't even ask him anything. the fact is that you don't even know a damn thing about this topic and you keep spewing the same nonsense here. If leaving this religion without an imam, and leave it in the hands of fallible people is against God's lutf, then leaving it with an hidden imam who could neither benifit us in the matters of religion, heck we can't even ask him a fiqh issue, is also against God's lutf. Go ask your marja that you follow, ask him whether shia believe that there is a need of imam at all time Or not, and ask him what is the intellectual reason for that. 

It amaze me how you are still repeating this and cannot see the faultiness in your statement. You are really not that bright at all. How can you be bright with your arrogance of "5 second of thinking".

Edited October 9, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

How can you be bright with your arrogance of "5 second of thinking

He is now in a learning process, trying to think from his qalb instead of his brain .

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 It is against their intellect that God will leave mankind without an imam at any given time

He has a very poor knowledge of Shia Islam & Imamah as well. He think that God is going to compel people and forcefully impose Imamah of His chosen ones on them. 

So he is unable to comprehend the meaning of criteria of "Lutf". So why people's not accepting Ali (عليه السلام) as their Imam, not against God's lutf? What if Imam of time is there but people go and ask the religious & fiqhi matters from others, is that against God's luft or not, if not why?

Ask him what is lutf and he will race away from here for months for having his 5 seconds of thinking "with brain".

[Irfani313]

47 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Ask him what is lutf and he will race away from here for months for having his 5 seconds of thinking "with brain".

Isn’t this the latmiyah of our Sunni bothers in general? Why Sunni religion sucks the analytical abilities and critical thinking out of the people’s brains. Even some reverts who turn to Sunni religion, become analytical dead and leave all of their inquisition behind that made them from XYZ to Sunni in the first place.

Is this the rigid dogma of the two books besides Quran, the sahar of the Samri that they forged in Saqifah, the magical whims of the lady of the camels, or the glitter of the gold of sufyanis??? 
 

Genuinely curious!!! 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Irfani313

[Zaydism]

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

How absolute uprightness is excluded from minority sins?

Minor sins are unintentional misdeeds that don’t result in corruption in society, and religion. However, persistence on minor sins is also damning.  

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Not any, but those that clearly contradict the teaching of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). And no, it does not mean it is terribly reactionary in our sect, but how terribly different Sunnis are from the truth.

It’s interesting how you mention the “teachings of the Ahlulbayt” but how these teachings evolve, and conflict, and how to this day even between Uṣūlīs there is a starking difference in approaching these “teachings”. 

Nonetheless, show me how they contradict these “teachings” I will show you through an authentic Ḥadīth how the Imām contradicts you, and then you will say Taqīyya. 
 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The inheritance of prophethood is not something that is choosed by people but rather by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself. In the same method we believe that Imamah is only choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And the verse of 2:124 is the condition.

Yes, and Allāh chose the sons of Lady Fāṭima collectively for the Imāmah. 
 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The evidence of his existence is exactly how you found out companions x,y, z exist in past. History, narrations etc.

Not quite, the reason is because these “companions” you’re referring to are those who came out saying Ḥasan ʿAskarī has a son, the people say that they never saw him having a son, and they say even his father denied having a son. Proof? His estate after his death was distributed among his family, because he didn’t have anyone to inherit him - if he had a son, his son would have inherited him. You cannot say history, or narrations because this is a Taqīyya movement, the Imām - according to you - was lying to the people, and deceiving them (god forbid). This is because if he is asked whether he was an Imām, he would say no. If he was asked whether he had a son, he would say no. What we are left with his testimony of some  individuals who had close relations with the Abbasids, who get this are engaged in Taqiyya too! They’re not really aides of the Abbasids although they’re treasurers, bodyguards, soldiers, and advisors. Rather, they’re just undercover agents sent by an Imām who denies sending them, and they say he is also doing Taqiyyah when you ask me. 
 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Of course we have. Can you name one of our Imam (عليه السلام) that did not have any Nass?

The proof of there not being Naṣṣ, and how later Ḥadīths which come after the fact do not establish said Naṣṣ is the confusion of the Shīʿa after the death of each Imām, even those “Khawāṣ” as they were unsure who the Imām was after al-Ṣādiq. I will demonstrate this now easily, show me a Naṣṣ for Imām Kāẓim, and I will show you Zurāra, Hishām b. Sālim, and al-Ṭaq not knowing who the Imām is after al-Ṣādiq.

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

That is incorrect. From Sheikh Mufeed:

Occultation does not contradict the need of having someone who is the guardian of the Sharī’ah and the creed. Can you not see that the Shī’ah themselves have taken up the responsibility for dissemination of religious teachings, such that he himself does not need to do so? The same applies to administering corporal punishments and application of religious edicts; sometimes, the representatives of the Imāms are given the discretion to implement them. This same logic applies to the issue of jihād; in fact, this applied even in the times of the Prophets, who had appointed deputees to command their batallions.

Therefore, whenever there is someone who stands up to represent the creed on the Imām’s behalf, the immediate responsibility is alleviated from the Imām (عليه السلام) and he may remain covert.[22] In contrast, when all individuals refuse to do so and become perverse in their religious duties, he must re-appear to assume the responsibility for himself.

It is precisely because of this reason that his existence becomes rationally necessary; his non-existence or demise would preclude him from protecting the religion and therefore it is reprehensible.

Secondly, given that the Imām has gone into occultation due to the threat of enemy forces, the culpability for the non-implementation of the creed and the stagnation of its edicts falls on these oppressors themselves. However, if God caused the Imām to die or eliminated him, the responsibility for the deviation of the ummah would fall upon God the Almighty Himself. It is of course completely unacceptable that God should precipitate ruination or cause disorder.[23]

al-Mufīd couldn’t even agree with his own teacher al-Ṣadūq when it comes to creed, this is why he wrote a work called Taṣḥīḥ al-Iʿtiqādāt wherein he corrects the ʿAqīda of Ṣadūq, and explains the correct twelver ʿAqīda. Therefore, this answer is completely invalid, and don’t forget that the deputies Mufīd mentioned, the third one went to the Qomī school to get his ʿAqīda checked, and get this they were people who believed in Jabr, and Tashbīh. Since Mufīd mentions deputies, why don’t you follow the “3rd deputy” of your occult Imām and start believing the Kufr of the Salafis that Allāh has a literal shin, or our actions are pre-determined. Brother, you have nothing to stand on, you need to understand this fact. I am genuinely astonished how your school even survived to this day, due to the sheer incoherence of it. 
 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

And if there is no Imam present, it does not mean that establishing of Hudud, and Shariah is vanished and can not be still used in our time. They are just limited.

Brother, limited for over 1188 years? Is this how desperate we’ve become to defend the unjustifiable occultation? They haven’t vanished, of course. The point is, you have nobody to implement them, and you already conceded there is no guidance, so really what are you even believing in? 

1. No Naṣṣ 

2. No guidance 

3. No Sharīʿa

4. No historical evidence (to even try to deny this is to deny your own theological underpinnings which maintain that the Imām did trick the people into thinking he didn’t have a son).

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

We know about the narration of twelve successors but no one knew who are they but after the final one of them they were know.

It’s a solitary report, it has come in contradicting forms, it is from the Sunni corpus and doesn’t exist in the Zaydī corpus. Moreover, nobody used this supposed report until after the occultation, why did the twelvers what for so long? Why couldn’t they use it against Waqifiyah, Zaydīyya, Fathiyya, Ismailiyya, etc.

 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

False.

In other words, you concede the point since you have no substantial rebuttal to it. 
 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

If you mean that the sect to be correct then we need to have an hadith that tells all the Imams names, then such statement is logically invalid. Just because there is no hadith to mention their names it does not means that all the 12 that is designated are false.

Yes it does, because at one point in history the ʾIsmāʿīlīs were Twelvers. Also, you need to understand that you have zero justification against Zaydis, because we don’t narrate that solitary report - which even if we did, you can’t use it in matters of Uṣūl al-Dīn by consensus!

 

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Anyway my time is very limited, if you want to respond then do so, InshaAllah I will have time to read it. But I know very well your discussion in past and they are always very long and I really don't have time for it right now.

Please take the time to read it, and reflect on it. Someone who admires Ibn Sīna as yourself should appreciate clear logical, and deductive arguments. You should know the behemoth of contradiction, and inconsistency that your school is and I invite you to the true school of the Ahl al-Bayt. This is so you may enjoy in the reward of defending the household of the Prophet, and in raising their banner at a time when their supporters have lessened. What an honor it is, isn’t it? 

[Hasani Samnani]

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

15 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

We know about the narration of twelve successors but no one knew who are they but after the final one of them they were know.

It’s a solitary report, it has come in contradicting forms, it is from the Sunni corpus and doesn’t exist in the Zaydī corpus

Brother i don't understand all the animus towards usulis or twelvers of any grouping. 

Imams Baqir (عليه السلام) ,  Jafer e Sadiq (عليه السلام) , Musa Kazim ( AS) and  Ali Reza (عليه السلام) all had immense respect for the knowledge,  aqueedah, love for justice,  incredible Quranic knowledge of Zayd Ibn Ali Zainul Abedin.

He was said to be most like Imam Ali in appearance, mannerisms and nature among his brothers.

Why instead of looking for differences and disagreements...why not find our commonalities. Considering we are already a minority sect and your a minority ( the biggest minority in Shia after twelvers) within...it seems kind of self defeating to make attacks on each others faith.

We have so many similarities to highlight. 

I think Shia chat should be all inclusive all Shia ney Ali.

We can consider the splintering of our ways is really a family dispute,  and with most family disputes it's best to keep these dispute low profile , and not allow our enemies ....and Allah knows we have enough of those from western govs, Salafi butchers,  zionist criminals, ....

I think we should join forces and  gang up on the Ismailis.....or the bohras...... we could kick the sh@$ out of those  sixers wusses....

don't you agree...? fivers and twelvers Unite!!

 

I was being facetious to make a point , I loved the fact that our bohra brothers and us attended majalis together in our hotel in Arbaeen and we discussed many common community and social problems afterwards.....

We are tied together By Imam Ali, Hadrat Fatima and Imam Husain...those three I am sure would hate to see their grandchildren fighting... or even arguing needlessly....

Honestly we should fight against the above mentioned true enemies...

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ (7)

Sahih International: And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide.

(Quran 13:7)

Look into Tafsir (specifically the Tafsir of Ibn Jarir al-Tabari because he is ur best) on what the guide is and who he is. After that we can walk some baby steps.

Also look at the verse where Allah says he has established a Caliph on the Earth.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Ansar Shiat Ali

[Cool]

I am surprised to see as to why Sunni's asking about the necessity of Imamah from us while their own books contain Sahih ahadith like these:

1-

رواه مسلم في صحيحه كتاب الإمارة ج6 ص 22 : " من مات وليس في عنقه بيعة مات ميتة جاهلية ".

2-

في مسند أحمد ج4 ص 96 : " من مات بغير إمام مات ميتة جاهلية ".

3-

في كتاب السنة لابن أبي عاصم ص 489 : " من مات وليس عليه إمام مات ميتة جاهلية ".

So whatever they want to destroy with their "5 seconds of thinking with brain" is nothing but their own intelligence. 

That is ridiculous indeed!!

Edited October 14, 2022 by Mahdavist
Inappropriate comment removed

[Muslim2010]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:53 AM, Irfani313 said:

I admire it brother