Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

[sunni muslim]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

How it is so hard for you or any of these Sunnis understand that the concept of Ghaybah of Imam who is not active itself is a possibility (even demonstrated, like the absence of Musa (عليه السلام) from his community). Do you understand that logically it is not impossible or contradiction of God Will or God System?

It is the twelver who can't understand the concept of imamah. First the shia say there must be an imam at all times to become a guide in religious matters so that the Quran and sunnah transmit to us without any mistake.  They believe that the imam must be infallible because he is the sole representative of Islam and sole expounder of it. Then they also believe that for some mysterious reason the imam went into occultation for 1200 years, within which shia couldn't benifit from him anything in religious matters. Nor in hadith, nor in quranic sciences, fiqh, not in anything. This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. 

 

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Where it says in Qur'an that to be an Imam, they must be always actively serving, guiding and present?

Exactly. You just destroyed the concept of imamah yourself. This is what we are trying to make you understand. There is no need of an infallible imam at all times which is in contrast to your concept of imamah, that there must be an imam at all times to guide the humanity. 

[Debate follower]

The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course 285 Al-Baqarah

There is NO mention of belief in IMAMS/IMAMATE! – a core Belief in Shia Islam.

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger will be in the company of those blessed by Allah: the prophets, the people of truth, the martyrs, and the righteous—what honourable company! 69 An-Nisa

There is NO mention of belief in IMAMS/IMAMATE! – a core Belief in Shia Islam.

[ShiaMan14]

35 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

So, it got into your books on the authority of Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) and and prominent Shia scholars agreed to it by Shia(il)logic!!!!  I know it hurts to score an own goal  Now you are trying to wiggle out from this. Now that you have scored it, enjoy it.  You over smartly tried to throw a pie on others but it landed on your own face. Just tasted it.

Not sure where you are getting this from but I am not denying this episode is mentioned in Shia books. 

I am clearly and categorically saying it is false and I do not believe it to be true. There is no need to wiggle out because I dont believe it to be true but sunnis believe wholeheartedly in this magical rock.

You should go back and re-read what I wrote. If I made fun of sunnis for having the narration in their books, then you could make fun of me because it is in shia books. However I said "you believe it to be true" so now you will have to prove that I believe this narration to be true AND then I will try to wiggle out of it. I can't believe I have to help you to make fun of me.

[Cool]

40 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course 285 Al-Baqarah

There is NO mention of belief in IMAMS/IMAMATE! – a core Belief in Shia Islam.

Salam!!

What has been revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his Lord mentions that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) took test from Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and after he cleared the test, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made him the Imam. He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned Imamate as "His covenant" which shall not reach to the unjust. 

What has been revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his Lord also mentions that God made some people Imams who guide people in accordance with divine command. 

What has been revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his Lord also mentions that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Wali of believers and His Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and those who establish prayers and pay the zakat in the state of ruku.

What has been revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his Lord also mentions the obligatory obedience to "Ulil Amr". And the same book also mentions clearly whom we should not obey. 

What has been revealed from his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Lord also mention the verse 22:78

 وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

 Solve the puzzle now "Millata Abikum Ibrahim" in this verse and "Wa min thurriyyati" of 2:124

"Huwa ijtabakum" in this verse and "La yanalo aahde (My covenant) alzalimeen" in 2:124

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
 

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ {24}

[Shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

13:7 ] You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

What has been revealed from his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Lord also mentions that we must be with the truthful ones:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ {119}

[Shakir 9:119] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

What has been revealed from his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Lord also mentions the divinely certified Sadiqeen too in the verse of Mubahila:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 

[Debate follower]

56 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Not sure where you are getting this from but I am not denying this episode is mentioned in Shia books. 

I am clearly and categorically saying it is false and I do not believe it to be true. There is no need to wiggle out because I dont believe it to be true but sunnis believe wholeheartedly in this magical rock.

You should go back and re-read what I wrote. If I made fun of sunnis for having the narration in their books, then you could make fun of me because it is in shia books. However I said "you believe it to be true" so now you will have to prove that I believe this narration to be true AND then I will try to wiggle out of it. I can't believe I have to help you to make fun of me.

To start with, you didn’t know that this material was in your own books attributed to the good Imam as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) supported by two eminent scholars!!!!

So had a dig at ‘other side’s expense.

I am not saying that you are wiggling out of what you believe. That’s not the issue. Maybe I am in same boat as you. You were trying to have a (good) laugh at Sunni’s expense but just found that you have scored own goal!!!  Even brother Abu Nur, who normally is very staid got into the ‘mood’.

58 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

If I made fun of sunnis for having the narration in their books

By saying “if”, are trying to wiggle out that you were not trying make of fun of Sunnis - Meow, meow... 

I don’t have to prove that you believe this narration to be true, your stance already showed what you believe.

It’s okay, things do happen and now done and dusted. Cheer up

16 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam!!

Wa 'alaykum brother Cool - I hope all's well with you and your very dear family.  In sha Allah I'll respond later. Tired zzz

[sunni muslim]

Funny how the topic of this thread shifted from imamah to a completely irrelevant topic. When you can't defend a core belief which is very weak, just change the topic. 

Btw, the narration quoted by 'debate follower' is authentic according to shia standards. Challenge me if you want me to prove that it is authentic if you want. Some random guy believing it is not true doesn't hold any worth. By that logic shia shouldn't quote fabricated stories of house burning of sayyeda fatima, because sunnis don't believe it to be true. 

And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by sunni muslim

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It is the twelver who can't understand the concept of imamah. First the shia say there must be an imam at all times to become a guide in religious matters so that the Quran and sunnah transmit to us without any mistake.  They believe that the imam must be infallible because he is the sole representative of Islam and sole expounder of it. Then they also believe that for some mysterious reason the imam went into occultation for 1200 years, within which shia couldn't benifit from him anything in religious matters. Nor in hadith, nor in quranic sciences, fiqh, not in anything. This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. 

This is the problem, you keep repeating this same arguments over and over again thinking that they will bring any value to discussion, but they do not even address the main point. It is very your faulty conclusion and thinking about some of our concept that keeps you be in this same loop.

"All times" does not mean that an Imam needs to be an active and present to guide us, but rather that it is sufficient that  there will be always an divine Imam in earth. For example:

“I heard abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) saying, ‘Would there remain no one on earth except two persons one of them would certainly be the person with Divine authority.”

It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing. Because we believe in Divine Imamah, infallibility is part of it yes, and because the command is with God hand then the occultation of the Imam is more reasonable to happen than with some fallible sinful man. This is because here God directly have the matter of decision to represent his prophets and imams in the earth. So it does not make it mysterious nor silly.

If you have any sincerity to even understand our concept of Imamah, then occulation is not the problem.

Quote

This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. 

You verily are an thickheaded man who think he demonstrated an argument that contradicts at same time.

Quote

Exactly. You just destroyed the concept of imamah yourself. This is what we are trying to make you understand. There is no need of an infallible imam at all times which is in contrast to your concept of imamah, that there must be an imam at all times to guide the humanity. 

This is hilarious. You really don't listen at all, you really are something.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Have you ever seen them hitting their heads!  

Not literally hitting, just shift of sense of reality.

 

[Guest 12345]

Here is an interesting tradition that might highlight the necessity of an Imam, - which from the Shia perspective is to preserve the true Islam - from Sunni sources:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Hadith Number 206.

https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_9_88.php

Narrated by Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman
The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."

Why would Muslims possibly have multiple Imams, if we have the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ)?

[sunni muslim]

Twelvers :- Islam was sent down to mankind in order to rectify them and to give them a set of principles of action and belief to follow in order that they may attain success and in order that they may be tested. One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam.

Also twelvers :- It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing.

 

What a silly madhab indeed.

 

 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

To start with, you didn’t know that this material was in your own books attributed to the good Imam as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) supported by two eminent scholars!!!!

Why don't you search how many times this topic has been discussed on SC and see if commented on it to figure out if I knew about this narration existing in shia text.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I am not saying that you are wiggling out of what you believe. That’s not the issue. Maybe I am in same boat as you. You were trying to have a (good) laugh at Sunni’s expense but just found that you have scored own goal!!!  Even brother Abu Nur, who normally is very staid got into the ‘mood’.

By saying “if”, are trying to wiggle out that you were not trying make of fun of Sunnis - Meow, meow... 

I can't believe I have to piece things together for you so much.

I am not wiggling out of making fun of sunnis because I am making fun of sunnis. Spelling it out for you...I am making fun of sunnis for believing in something stupid. I am not making fun of sunnis (in this case) for having something stupid in their books. That's another fun topic for another day just not this topic. If needed, I can draw a diagram for you (now I am making fun of you).

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Btw, the narration quoted by 'debate follower' is authentic according to shia standards. Challenge me if you want me to prove that it is authentic if you want. Some random guy believing it is not true doesn't hold any worth. By that logic shia shouldn't quote fabricated stories of house burning of sayyeda fatima, because sunnis don't believe it to be true. 

This silly topic has been discussed on SC several times. Want to pick it up there?

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it. 

So Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not your Imam anymore?

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction,

Imam is needed to be present in order to clarify, but it does not mean that he must be present currently. There is no statement that says we must have an active and present Imam all the time to guide us. Rather it is God who chooses if he want to change the status of Imam from passive to active.

Quote

The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam.

Aww, now it is about Adl. So how do you reach to conclusion using this that it logically necessitate that God need always to give us an active imam to guide us? Do we not have eras and places where there was not such a imam who guide? God is the faulty one here? Did we have guidance in Age of Ignorance? God said: and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it. And did he save them before Muhammad (saws)? Yes for one group and no for other group. This is the principle that God can send whomever He wants an present Imam who actively guides group x or y. But he can also make them not actively guide groups x and y either.

Understand that there is difference between having an Imam and Imam being active to guide. In our concept there is no an necessity that he must be present and actively to guide even if he is badly needed.

Ask yourself, Christians (and even Muslims) are waiting for the guidance of Jesus (عليه السلام), God took him to ghaybah (absence) and one day he will come back and guide the mankind. Is Isa (عليه السلام) active or passive Imam? Is Isa ghaybah mystery and silly?

 

Quote

Also twelvers :- It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing.

Exactly.

Quote

What a silly madhab indeed.

Silly statement from silly man.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Abu Nur

[ShiaMan14]

3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

To start with, you didn’t know that this material was in your own books attributed to the good Imam as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) supported by two eminent scholars!!!!

Here you go:

The funny thing that same thing happened 6 years ago...hehehe.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ShiaMan14

[Debate follower]

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Why don't you search how many times this topic has been discussed on SC and see if commented on it to figure out if I knew about this narration existing in shia text.

I had done my search on SC before my post for your kind information. That’s the reason I posted nearly 10 hours after your post. The last discussion on this was in 2015. In fact, it was brother Abu Nur who had told the OP that this is also in Shia literature.

Quote

 

Really? Dude, you believe a rock stole Hz.Musa's clothes and left him naked.

You take the Father of Kittens as your most profilic narrator of ahadith. Meow, meow...

 

Let any fair-minded person read the above. They will definitely conclude that you were having a dig and implying Sunni’s have ‘objectionable’ narrations in their books. And the second sentence confirms the mood you were in.  If you were not aware that this narration is in Shia literature too, then your dig gets acceptable as a banter within debate. But by you knowing that this is also in Shia narrations, that too, attributed to the great Imam as-Sadiq (may Allah have mercy on him), your challenge implied as if this is only Sunni narration. This was unfair, smacks of unfair tactics. What if he didn’t know that it is also in your books. Surely, you would have played this around him upsetting his debate.  Tactics, tactics – games people play.

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I can't believe I have to piece things together for you so much.

I am not wiggling out of making fun of sunnis because I am making fun of sunnis. Spelling it out for you...I am making fun of sunnis for believing in something stupid. I am not making fun of sunnis (in this case) for having something stupid in their books. That's another fun topic for another day just not this topic.

Now, you are patronising! I didn’t mean that you making fun of Sunnis on the general. At that point you were having a dig. Similarly, you have a lot of stupid stuff in your hadith literature which you won’t touch with a barge pole. And I would feel silly to ask you if you believed in it. It would me more embarrassing for me ask you if you believed it, well knowing that the same material in ‘my’ own books! Get the gist?

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

If needed, I can draw a diagram for you (now I am making fun of you).

Of course, I can take that. Diagram? Surely, provided that you are good at drawing.

There is a saying: “When you have dug yourself in a hole, stop digging. 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Let any fair-minded person read the above. They will definitely conclude that you were having a dig and implying Sunni’s have ‘objectionable’ narrations in their books. And the second sentence confirms the mood you were in.  

Wow. Your reading comprehension is really limited. I literally said I was making fun of objectionable sunni beliefs. Further explanation of why I said belief and not books because Shia and sunni books have objectionable materials but we easily reject the false or absurd narrations whereas sunnis think that if a hadith is in Bukhari or Muslim then it MUST be true so the real problem is BELIEVING false narrations.

Yes, I was in the mood to mock @sunni muslim. I find him amusing and can't take him seriously.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I had done my search on SC before my post for your kind information. That’s the reason I posted nearly 10 hours after your post. The last discussion on this was in 2015. In fact, it was brother Abu Nur who had told the OP that this is also in Shia literature.

Clearly along with comprehension, you lack research skills as well. I already posted a link to a post from Oct 4 2016 on this topic.

Back to school youngling.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

. But by you knowing that this is also in Shia narrations, that too, attributed to the great Imam as-Sadiq (may Allah have mercy on him), your challenge implied as if this is only Sunni narration. This was unfair, smacks of unfair tactics. What if he didn’t know that it is also in your books. Surely, you would have played this around him upsetting his debate. Tactics, tactics – games people play.

Still NO. The challenge is that sunnis believe this to be true whereas we dont.

His debate was completed when he admitted believing in Imamah on Pg3 (I think) and then again admitted to having the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his Imam.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

 

Now, you are patronising! I didn’t mean that you making fun of Sunnis on the general. At that point you were having a dig. Similarly, you have a lot of stupid stuff in your hadith literature which you won’t touch with a barge pole. And I would feel silly to ask you if you believed in it. It would me more embarrassing for me ask you if you believed it, well knowing that the same material in ‘my’ own books! Get the gist?

The difference is as shias we reject the objectionable BUT sunnis are forced into accepting objectionable materials simply because it is in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim. Get the gist?

Just to be clear, I am making fun of him, you and objectionable sunni beliefs simultaneously

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Of course, I can take that. Diagram? Surely, provided that you are good at drawing.

There is a saying: “When you have dug yourself in a hole, stop digging. 

Okay youngling, you will get a diagram tomorrow.

To show you how far ahead I am from you and sunni dude, I specifically chose the Musa narration and then mentioned Kitty-Daddy because this absurd narration comes from him in Bukhari. Be honest, had you connected the dots?

Now go to sleep, we will continue schooling tomorrow.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by ShiaMan14

[Zaidism]

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

There is no absolute uprightness of fallible human beings, so this itself is a faulty reasoning. Because a fallible human being can not be an absolute in good character. If it was just uprightness then it would make more sense, but that itself would be not much different from Sunnis either. And don't ignore other similarities with Sunnis.

There is no faulty reasoning, absolute uprightness = not falling into any major sin, and not contradicting the decisive of the Quran, and what is Mutawwatir from the Sunnah. 

You act as if any similarity with Sunnism is somehow a failure in creed, rather it is indictive of how terribly reactionary your sect is. 

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Second how did Imamah turned from divine choosed by God (like wilayah of Imam Ali (as)) to the hands of fallible ones?

This is the tradition of Allah with those who have passed, do you deny that the sons of Israel inherited Prophethood, and scripture in particular members, and in the community? 

We are held by evidence, the Prophet provided Nass for Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, and then he designated the community of his progeny through Hadith Thaqalayn. This is quite consistent with the Quran, as we see Allah saying: {And indeed, We sent Noah and Abraham and reserved prophethood and revelation for their descendants. Some of them are ˹rightly˺ guided, while most are rebellious} [57:26].

This inheritance culminated with the community of the Ahl al-Bayt, the sons of Lady Fatima (upon her be blessings, and peace). Allah, the Exalted, says: {Then We caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself [i.e., sins], and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allāh. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty}.

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Then you clearly don't comprehend what our scholars attest to. How it is so hard for you or any of these Sunnis understand that the concept of Ghaybah of Imam who is not active itself is a possibility (even demonstrated, like the absence of Musa (عليه السلام) from his community). Do you understand that logically it is not impossible or contradiction of God Will or God System?

Since you concede that the Imam does not guide, we then move to our follow up question which is what is your evidence that he even exists? As you may know, the Imam is not a necessary existent, rather he is contingent. Therefore, to appeal to the logical necessity of the Imam as your Salaf have done is not viable, this will be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt if you choose to take this route. 

You cannot appeal to mystery, as you are making a tall claim by saying our salvation depends upon believing in Twelve designated Imams. At the very least, if you wish to go against the consensus of your scholar, and what is (falsely) attributed by Mass-transmission (from the Ghulat) to our great Imams of guidance al-Baqir, al-Sadiq, and the other greats from the sons of Imam Husayn who have suffered enough from your fabricated attributions. 

Then, you will say that we are upon clear misguidance for rejecting them. 

To that I will say, what exactly am I misguided from as a Zaydi? You see, I can demonstrate the misguidance of Sunnis, Twelvers, Ismailis, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Polytheists, Agnostics, etc. for rejecting the Ahl al-Bayt who are embodied by the Zaydiyyah. 

I assure you, you will not be able to highlight the guidance which we are missing out on, and you have already capitulated to this reality from the beginning. You see how the matter instantly goes back to guidance, as you don't have a Nass to provide that designates your Imams. How can you provide such a Nass when even Zurarah had no access to it. 

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Where it says in Qur'an that to be an Imam, they must be always actively serving, guiding and present? Rather it says they only follow the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This will open two possible scenarios, active or non-active. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decided to postpone, then there is no logical contradiction in His decision.

You have conceded that your Imamah lacks active service to the Ummah, and once again have emphasized your agreement with me that it is bereft of guidance.

As expected, your only option is to appeal to mystery. I will not mention how it contradicts Hadith Thaqalayn as it is tied to guidance, rather I will address your presupposition. 

You say they follow the command of Allah, however, with such a statement you are presuming they are designated by Allah. Where is your evidence for their designation? 

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

If you want to show that they are, then start to show proof, because your statement will be just meaningless itself.

Sure:

Quran: Calls to establishing Hudud, and Shariah. No Imam present to do so.

History: No Imami denomination argued for 12 Imams until the creed was crystallized.

Pragmatism: No guidance, no benefit.

Hadith: No Hadith that designates 12 Imams.

Reason: Contradiction, and inconsistency.

[Cool]

8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

When you can't defend a core belief which is very weak, just change the topic. 

lol, We actually don't even feel the need to defend the very concept which is mentioned in Quran & in your own books. Here is what your scholars say about the Imamate:

"Imamate is not an Islamic fundamental for us; rather it is one of obligatory commandments, unlike the Shiah that consider it as an Islamic principle. Some have defined Imamate as the leadership of the public in worldly and religious issues. However, a better definition of it is the caliphate of Prophet Muhammad (S) in establishing the religion and maintaining the Muslims’ unity. Obeying such a caliph is then obligatory for all the Muslims."

(Sharhul Mawaqif, Vol 8, p. 344.

Sheikh Abdur Rahman Lahiji)

This will take us back to the discussion of the successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and to the subject "Ulil Amr". 

You have invented/elected your Imams and either ignored or either disliked what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have selected for you. It is nothing but a clear defiance, a deviance as well. 

More interesting is that according to your own books, the Caliphs or Imams after Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will be 12 (please see the variants of hadith narrated by Jabir bin Samura). And even more interesting is that your books even mention the character Mehdi ajtf, who will be mentioned as Imam of Muslims in your own books. 

How funny is that you, even then, questioning the necessity of Imamate.  

 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

the Prophet provided Nass for Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, and then he designated the community of his progeny through Hadith Thaqalayn.

What!!

Where does hadith al Thaqalayn gave you the impression that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) designated or authorized the community to elect or select an Imam from Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام?

So you become Imam less after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). While his only son al-Sajjad (عليه السلام) was leading the imprisoned caravan. You become Imam less till Zayd al-Shaheed reached to his maturity and stood against the zalimeen. 

It appears that the saqifa of Sunni's happened in Saqifah bani Sa'ada but the Saqifah of Zaidiyyah happened when Zayd al-Shaheed decided to stand against oppression. 

[sunni muslim]

18 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Imam is needed to be present in order to clarify, but it does not mean that he must be present currently. There is no statement that says we must have an active and present Imam all the time to guide us. Rather it is God who chooses if he want to change the status of Imam from passive to active

First get educated on the topic of imamah in order to debate me on this topic rather than wasting my time. Read any of your books of usool, and read the definition there. It says there must be an imam at all times to clarify as it is against Allah's lutf according to the shia. It is against their intellect that God will leave mankind without an imam at any given time.  According to them, there can be no time that earth can be without an infallible imam, so that he may clarify the religion, as it is against Allah's lutf that he will leave his religion without an infallible imam at any given time. So it does mean that he need to be present at all time. How the heck will he clarify when he is out of touch with humanity and muslims can't even ask him anything. the fact is that you don't even know a damn thing about this topic and you keep spewing the same nonsense here. If leaving this religion without an imam, and leave it in the hands of fallible people is against God's lutf, then leaving it with an hidden imam who could neither benifit us in the matters of religion, heck we can't even ask him a fiqh issue, is also against God's lutf. Go ask your marja that you follow, ask him whether shia believe that there is a need of imam at all time Or not, and ask him what is the intellectual reason for that. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by sunni muslim

[ShiaMan14]

16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course, I can take that. Diagram? Surely, provided that you are good at drawing.

There is a saying: “When you have dug yourself in a hole, stop digging. 

Here you go son. there are multiple levels of mocking in this in the blue section. Pop quiz tomorrow.

[Muslim2010]

20 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it. 

Hard head struggling by keeping the eyes closed from the truth described in the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Muslim2010

[sunni muslim]

30 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Here you go son. there are multiple levels of mocking in this in the blue section. Pop quiz tomorrow.

Sorry to break your heart, the narration he is quoting is authentic according to your rijal standards. All the narrators are thiqa (trustworthy) according to your rijali scholars like najashi and tusi. Try again. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by sunni muslim

[Guest 12345]

4 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry to break your heart, the narration he is quoting is authentic according to your rijal standards. Try again. 

Salam

Proof?

Thanks!

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry to break your heart, the narration he is quoting is authentic according to your rijal standards. All the narrators are thiqa (trustworthy) according to your rijali scholars like najashi and tusi. Try again. 

it was debunked in 2016 and earlier.

I can't take you seriously because you flip-flop too much. take a stand brother.

[sunni muslim]

25 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

it was debunked in 2016 and earlier.

I can't take you seriously because you flip-flop too much. take a stand brother.

If it is debunked in 2016 then post the refutation here. And its you who changed the topic. You shifted the topic from imamah to a completely different topic. 

And it's me who can't take you seriously. Like I was ignoring you for a long time because I don't reply to such "intellectual" responses that you make but it's like you need some dose. So listen, regardless I accept prophet as my imam or not, it still doesn't support anything that you believe. Whenever I say 'imamah is false' I'm talking about shia concept of imamah which says there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness. Even a five year old can understand this, that when I say 'imamah is false' then I'm talking about shia concept of imamah. That's why I wasn't replying to you, since I don't waste my time debating 'geniuses' like you who can't even understand this. Me believing prohet Muhammad, prophet ibrahim as an imam or not, doesn't support anything of your concept. 

If the shia believe that there must be an imam at all times to convey, protect, deliver, clarify, expound the religion, then the imam couldn't leave this religion and go into hiding for some mysterious reason for 1200 years, while in the meantime shia differ so much among themselves in fiqh issues. If imamah is true, then ghaybah is false, if ghaybah is true then imamah is false. Read this post 2-3 times, memorize every word of this post, understand that the logic is air-tight, cry yourself to sleep and stop wasting my time. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by sunni muslim

[Guest 12345]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

If it is debunked in 2016 then post the refutation here. And its you who changed the topic. You shifted the topic from imamah to a completely different topic. 

And it's me who can't take you seriously. Like I was ignoring you for a long time because I don't reply to such "intellectual" responses that you make but it's like you need some dose. So listen, regardless I accept prophet as my imam or not, it still doesn't support anything that you believe. Whenever I say 'imamah is false' I'm talking about shia concept of imamah which says there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness. Even a five year old can understand this, that when I say 'imamah is false' then I'm talking about shia concept of imamah. That's why I wasn't replying to you, since I don't waste my time debating 'geniuses' like you who can't even understand this. Me believing prohet Muhammad, prophet ibrahim as an imam or not, doesn't support anything of your concept. 

If the shia believe that there must be an imam at all times to convey, protect, deliver, clarify, expound the religion, then the imam couldn't leave this religion and go into hiding for some mysterious reason for 1200 years, while in the meantime shia differ so much among themselves in fiqh issues. If imamah is true, then ghaybah is false, if ghaybah is true then imamah is false. Read this post 2-3 times, memorize every word of this post, understand that the logic is air-tight, cry yourself to sleep and stop wasting my time. 

Salam,

With all due respect brother, you highlighted the wrong part, I have underlined your "true" argument.

The issue of contention, as it appears to me, is that you assume that a hidden Imam (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) is a logical inconsistency and a necessary tenant in Imamah.

Many SC members have mentioned that the Imam (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) in hiding doesn't take away from his position, and have provided instances of the Prophets being away from their followers for an extended time.

Let's not forget, at the same time, the Sunni brothers/sisters are fine with the possibility of guidance ending with death of the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ), as the legal/Islamic framework has already been established. Furthermore, we are about 1400+ years apart from the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ), yet still benefit from his guidance.

If the foundation has been laid, does the Imam (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) need to take an active role? How active are you expecting the Imam (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) to be?

[ShiaMan14]

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

If it is debunked in 2016 then post the refutation here. And its you who changed the topic. You shifted the topic from imamah to a completely different topic. 

I posted a link to it in this thread.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

And it's me who can't take you seriously. Like I was ignoring you for a long time because I don't reply to such "intellectual" responses that you make but it's like you need some dose. So listen, regardless I accept prophet as my imam or not, it still doesn't support anything that you believe. Whenever I say 'imamah is false' I'm talking about shia concept of imamah which says there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness. Even a five year old can understand this, that when I say 'imamah is false' then I'm talking about shia concept of imamah. That's why I wasn't replying to you, since I don't waste my time debating 'geniuses' like you who can't even understand this. Me believing prohet Muhammad, prophet ibrahim as an imam or not, doesn't support anything of your concept. 

If the shia believe that there must be an imam at all times to convey, protect, deliver, clarify, expound the religion, then the imam couldn't leave this religion and go into hiding for some mysterious reason for 1200 years, while in the meantime shia differ so much among themselves in fiqh issues. If imamah is true, then ghaybah is false, if ghaybah is true then imamah is false. Read this post 2-3 times, memorize every word of this post, understand that the logic is air-tight, cry yourself to sleep and stop wasting my time. 

Oh man this is so confusing - shia concept of Imamah is false; sunni concept of Imamah is right.

But then you confuse the matter further in that either Imamah is true or Ghaybah is true which is different from imamah is false. Wouldn't it be true that if Imamah is false then ghaybah would automatically be false too?

Is your problem Imamah or ghaybah?

You also didn't state that you believed in Imamah just not how the shias believe in it.

Your initial post should have clarified most of this - you proposed a 1/2 baked hypothesis and are blaming me for poking holes in it.

Lastly, why so angry? Was it something I wrote?

[Guest Leadership: Man vs God]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

If it is debunked in 2016 then post the refutation here. And its you who changed the topic. You shifted the topic from imamah to a completely different topic. 

And it's me who can't take you seriously. Like I was ignoring you for a long time because I don't reply to such "intellectual" responses that you make but it's like you need some dose. So listen, regardless I accept prophet as my imam or not, it still doesn't support anything that you believe. Whenever I say 'imamah is false' I'm talking about shia concept of imamah which says there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness. Even a five year old can understand this, that when I say 'imamah is false' then I'm talking about shia concept of imamah. That's why I wasn't replying to you, since I don't waste my time debating 'geniuses' like you who can't even understand this. Me believing prohet Muhammad, prophet ibrahim as an imam or not, doesn't support anything of your concept. 

If the shia believe that there must be an imam at all times to convey, protect, deliver, clarify, expound the religion, then the imam couldn't leave this religion and go into hiding for some mysterious reason for 1200 years, while in the meantime shia differ so much among themselves in fiqh issues. If imamah is true, then ghaybah is false, if ghaybah is true then imamah is false. Read this post 2-3 times, memorize every word of this post, understand that the logic is air-tight, cry yourself to sleep and stop wasting my time. 

Interesting dilemma that you think you are in the right while the Shias are always wrong and will be wrong in the afterlife always. Especially when you have used Qiyas throughout to justify your stance against this issue along with the Ghadeer-e-Khum Tradition.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Shia concept of "Imamate" which is basically stating that when guiding a community bound by the religion of God, God Himself gets to decide through his Prophets who will be the leader for the community bound by the religion of God. Not the people themselves.

Now, how does God get to decide that and how would the Shias know that with certainty. What rules are they using? What criteria and virtues are they judging amongst the community of Muhammad where God chose a particular individual through Muhammad to be the Imam of the Muslim community?

To the Shias it all boils down to the tradition of Hadith Al-Kisa and Ghadeer-e-Khum where Muhammad himself appointed Ali as the next leader in line after his eventual passing of this world.

And after Ali comes his grandsons Hassan and Hussain being the Imam through the sayings of Ali in Shia Hadiths and narrations.

Basically if Shias can expound more so on the chain of narrations corroborating within their own Hadith Literatures of the fact that Hussain ibn Ali said, "Zain-ul-Aabideen will the Imam after me" from Narrator X. And Zain-ul-Abideen said, "My son Muhammad Baqir will be the next Imam after me" from Narrator Y, then the whole Twelver Shia sect may have something credible on their hands to stand on their own terms against the man-made Sunni Caliphate System.

As for the 12th Imam in occultation (ghaybat), do you not believe in ghaybat? Jesus is in occultation (ghaybat) along with Khidr. Do you not believe in Jesus being in occultation? You might as well believe that he's crucified in this world and died the death of a false prophet since you seem like you don't believe in the concept of ghaybat. It's not that farfetched to believe in a concept where this so called 12th Imam is in occultation alongside Jesus and Khidr. Have you read about the 12th Imam and why he went in Occultation given how much of the Sunni Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate System has spread amongst the Muslim Community at that time that most of the Imams Shias believe in from Zain-ul-Aabideen and beyond were placed in house arrest at best or locked in dungeons for worst. Why? To ensure that a person like Hussain ibn Ali never resurface from among his progeny in this world to oppose the Leadership and Governance of the Muslim Community afterwards given the tragic event of Karbala.

Bottom line is this. man-made leaders are always corrupt and will be corrupt through all that power they are exercising upon the ignorant community due to their fallible nature. Never trust Man-Made Leadership Systems when bounded by the religion of God. Trust in God who will appoint a Leader for you to follow His religion.

This is all about the question who gets to decide to be a Leader for the community when bounded by a religion. Do people get to decide their leaders or does God decide who gets to be the leader for the community bounded by a religion through his prophets?

[Cool]

7 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness.

Let me rephrase this quoted text to show what is the actual belief of Shias:

1. there must be an infallible imam at all time (Necessary)

2. to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion (Conditional with the clause يهدون بامرنا)

What makes #1 necessary is mentioned in the following ahadith:

1-

عن الإمام الباقر(عليه السلام)، قال: (لو أنّ الإمام رُفع من الأرض ساعة لماجت بأهلها، كما يموج البحر بأهله)

الكافي 1: 179 الحديث (12) كتاب الحجّة، باب أنّ الأرض لا تخلو من حجّة.

2-

وروي عنه (عليه السلام) أنّه قال: (لو بقيت الأرض يوماً واحد بلا إمام لساخت الأرض بأهلها، ولعذّبهم الله بأشدّ عذابه.. إنّ الله تبارك وتعالى جعلنا حجّة في أرضه وأماناً في الأرض لأهل الأرض، لن يزالوا بأمان من أن تسيخ بهم الأرض ما دمنا بين أظهرهم، فإذا أراد الله أن يهلكهم ثمّ لا يمهلهم ولا ينظرهم، ذهب بنا من بينهم ورفعنا إليه، ثمّ يفعل الله تعالى بهم ما شاء وأحبّ)

إكمال الدين وإتمام النعمة: 204 الحديث (14) الباب الحادي والعشرون

3-

عن أمير المؤمنين(عليه السلام) قال: (لا تخلو الأرض من قائم لله بحجّة، إمّا ظاهر مشهوراً، وإمّا خائفاً مغموراً)

نهج البلاغة لمحمّد عبده 4: 37 (147) ومن كلام له(عليه السلام) لكميل بن زياد

The following verse of Quran is in agreement with the above ahadith:

 وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُعَذِّبَهُم وَأَنتَ فِيهِم

(الأنفال:33)

Here is another hadith:

روي عن جابر بن يزيد الجعفي، قال: ((قلت لأبي جعفر محمّد بن علي الباقر (عليهما السلام): لأيّ شيء يحتاج إلى النبيّ(صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) والإمام؟ فقال: (لبقاء العالم على صلاحه، وذلك أنّ الله عزّ وجلّ يرفع العذاب عن أهل الأرض إذا كان فيها نبيّ أو إمام؛ قال الله عزّ وجلّ: (( وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُعَذِّبَهُم وَأَنتَ فِيهِم ))

And this one too:

وقال النبيّ(صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم):

النجوم أمان لأهل السماء، وأهل بيتي أمان لأهل الأرض، فإذا ذهبت النجوم أتى أهل السماء ما يكرهون، وإذا ذهب أهل بيتي أتى أهل الأرض ما يكرهون

علل الشرائع 1: 123 العلّة التي من أجلها يحتاج إلى النبيّ والإمام(عليهما السلام)

And what makes # 2 conditional, is already mentioned. There are aqli evidences for it too which even a five years old kid can understand. But people without intellect cannot understand it in anyway as not using the intellect itself necessitates the rijs for such person (according to 10:100) and this rijs would definitely takes him away from the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام 

 

[ShiaMan14]

4 hours ago, Guest Leadership: Man vs God said:

Interesting dilemma that you think you are in the right while the Shias are always wrong and will be wrong in the afterlife always. Especially when you have used Qiyas throughout to justify your stance against this issue along with the Ghadeer-e-Khum Tradition.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Shia concept of "Imamate" which is basically stating that when guiding a community bound by the religion of God, God Himself gets to decide through his Prophets who will be the leader for the community bound by the religion of God. Not the people themselves.

Now, how does God get to decide that and how would the Shias know that with certainty. What rules are they using? What criteria and virtues are they judging amongst the community of Muhammad where God chose a particular individual through Muhammad to be the Imam of the Muslim community?

To the Shias it all boils down to the tradition of Hadith Al-Kisa and Ghadeer-e-Khum where Muhammad himself appointed Ali as the next leader in line after his eventual passing of this world.

And after Ali comes his grandsons Hassan and Hussain being the Imam through the sayings of Ali in Shia Hadiths and narrations.

Basically if Shias can expound more so on the chain of narrations corroborating within their own Hadith Literatures of the fact that Hussain ibn Ali said, "Zain-ul-Aabideen will the Imam after me" from Narrator X. And Zain-ul-Abideen said, "My son Muhammad Baqir will be the next Imam after me" from Narrator Y, then the whole Twelver Shia sect may have something credible on their hands to stand on their own terms against the man-made Sunni Caliphate System.

As for the 12th Imam in occultation (ghaybat), do you not believe in ghaybat? Jesus is in occultation (ghaybat) along with Khidr. Do you not believe in Jesus being in occultation? You might as well believe that he's crucified in this world and died the death of a false prophet since you seem like you don't believe in the concept of ghaybat. It's not that farfetched to believe in a concept where this so called 12th Imam is in occultation alongside Jesus and Khidr. Have you read about the 12th Imam and why he went in Occultation given how much of the Sunni Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate System has spread amongst the Muslim Community at that time that most of the Imams Shias believe in from Zain-ul-Aabideen and beyond were placed in house arrest at best or locked in dungeons for worst. Why? To ensure that a person like Hussain ibn Ali never resurface from among his progeny in this world to oppose the Leadership and Governance of the Muslim Community afterwards given the tragic event of Karbala.

Bottom line is this. man-made leaders are always corrupt and will be corrupt through all that power they are exercising upon the ignorant community due to their fallible nature. Never trust Man-Made Leadership Systems when bounded by the religion of God. Trust in God who will appoint a Leader for you to follow His religion.

This is all about the question who gets to decide to be a Leader for the community when bounded by a religion. Do people get to decide their leaders or does God decide who gets to be the leader for the community bounded by a religion through his prophets?

Thank you for this lengthy explanation. Others have also tried to explain things to him but when the heart is sealed, it is sealed. If I took him seriously I would have argued that Allah, Heaven, Angels, Hell, Shaitan, Grave are among a few things other things that are ghayab.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was in occultation (ghayab) the first 40 years of his life; he was in occultation during hijra and even left a naib in his absence.

Furthermore, Allah promised Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that Imamah would be in his progeny. There was no caveat about Hz Ismael (عليه السلام) or Hz Ishaq (عليه السلام) only inheriting this responsibility neither was there a term limit on how long this would hold therefore Imamah would be in the progeny of Ibrahim until the end of time.

With that said, Imamah ended in the progeny of Ishaq with Hz Isa (عليه السلام) who didn't die but went into occultation - Allah kept his promise. Similarly, the promise in Ismael's progeny couldn't end with the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) because he was martyred. The rank of Imamah continued through Imam Ali (عليه السلام) until the 12 Imam who also went into occultation like Isa - thus retaining Allah's promise to Ibrahim that Imamah would remain in his progeny until the end of time.

BUT I can't take @sunni muslim seriously so I choose mockery.

[Guest Leadership: Man vs God]

56 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Thank you for this lengthy explanation. Others have also tried to explain things to him but when the heart is sealed, it is sealed. If I took him seriously I would have argued that Allah, Heaven, Angels, Hell, Shaitan, Grave are among a few things other things that are ghayab.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was in occultation (ghayab) the first 40 years of his life; he was in occultation during hijra and even left a naib in his absence.

Furthermore, Allah promised Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that Imamah would be in his progeny. There was no caveat about Hz Ismael (عليه السلام) or Hz Ishaq (عليه السلام) only inheriting this responsibility neither was there a term limit on how long this would hold therefore Imamah would be in the progeny of Ibrahim until the end of time.

With that said, Imamah ended in the progeny of Ishaq with Hz Isa (عليه السلام) who didn't die but went into occultation - Allah kept his promise. Similarly, the promise in Ismael's progeny couldn't end with the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) because he was martyred. The rank of Imamah continued through Imam Ali (عليه السلام) until the 12 Imam who also went into occultation like Isa - thus retaining Allah's promise to Ibrahim that Imamah would remain in his progeny until the end of time.

BUT I can't take @sunni muslim seriously so I choose mockery.

I do understand the Shia position when it comes to Leadership guiding the community bounded under a religion. Your understanding of "Imamate" is essentially a Divinely Appointed Leader chosen by God through a Prophet. I think the issue that @sunni muslim might be going through is that when reading the Quran and understanding the context revolving around Abraham being an Imam for his community is that he was a Prophet as well. So maybe for some Muslims in order for that individual to be an Imam for that community bounded by a religion from God, he has to be a Prophet (be it nabi or rasul) as well. Reading the stories of the previous scriptures only affirms Prophets (be they rasul or nabi) as Imams strictly speaking unless I'm overlooking a verse.

However, if that same Prophet chose someone who is not a Prophet to be an Imam for the community is where the issue arises.

For some people, to be an Imam you have to be a Prophet of God as well like Abraham and Jesus. So far in Shia Islam, I see more of a dualism position here where a person can be an Imam chosen by God through a Prophet after his eventual passing, but not necessarily be a Prophet of God. Ali ibne Abu Talib was not a Prophet of God, but he is an Imam according to Shia Islam from God through Muhammad based on the Tradition of Ghadeer-e-Khum.

Whereas for some people they can't accept this dualism position of Imamate, and are more willing to believe that a person has to be both an Imam and a Prophet of God based on how far the Quran is telling the story of the past generations before the advent of Muhammad. Unless there is proof that both the position of Prophethood and Imamate are separate and distinct from one another in the Quran, all I see is that a Prophet can be an Imam as well so maybe they must go together and must never be separated. If Prophethood dies with Muhammad, then so should Imamate.

Is there a person mentioned in the Quran before the advent of Muhammad and the 12 Imams who is not a Prophet of God per say, but is an Imam for his community by God through a Prophet?

The closest entity I could think of would be this Zulqarnain mentioned in the Quran where he is not a Prophet of God, but is a Righteous King who might've been chosen by God through an unnamed Prophet of God from that era of time to be the Imam of his community while the unnamed Prophet of God living in Zulqarnain's time served as a priestly advisor for him to rule over the community. The closest identity of Zulqarnain might be Cyrus the Great who was simply a man who championed monotheism and not a Prophet of God, but he might've been chosen by God through an unnamed Prophet of God from his era of time (possibly Prophet Zoroaster and his descendent prophets after him since Zoroastrianism is technically monotheistic during Cyrus the Great's era) to be an Imam for his community.

But what do I know for sure. The whole thing about Zulqarnain along with Cyrus the Great might as well be speculation at best with not enough decisive evidence to corroborate with the history Mankind currently has in place.

[Cool]

14 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

BUT I can't take @sunni muslim seriously so I choose mockery.

You did the right thing as he uses a lot of his "brain" for thinking and not using the right tool for understanding things (يفقهون & يعقلون)

14 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

but when the heart is sealed, it is sealed.

 وَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لاَ يَفْقَهُونَ

9:87) and a seal is set on their hearts so they do not understand.

What he said on other thread is this:

"It's core belief is imamah which can be destroyed by nothing but 5 seconds of thinking with brain"

[sunni muslim]

Why are you making fun of 1200 years ghaybah of our imam, prophet (عليه السلام) was in ghaybah for  40 years of his life 

               -- shia

Literally, people taking twelvers seriously is beyond me