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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

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sunni muslim

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30 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Come on, you have been very biased by choosing Letter 6 and trying to interpret that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) consider them to be valid. If you are unbiased then you will also see that Sermon 3 is very contradiction with your interpretation of Letter 6.

No, brother, I am not being biased. I have quoted from the same book that you are quoting sermon 3 from, right?

Surely, the onus is on you to explain the both narrations.  I can quote  a few from the same source strengthening my view. Just saying the Nahjul Balagha is not a Shia book won't do. It's the narrations of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). Shia sites promote it a lot!

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons  https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

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25 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

No, brother, I am not being biased. I have quoted from the same book that you are quoting sermon 3 from, right?

Surely, the onus is on you to explain the both narrations.  I can quote  a few from the same source strengthening my view. Just saying the Nahjul Balagha is not a Shia book won't do. It's the narrations of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). Shia sites promote it a lot!

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons  https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

What is this, pick and interpret whatever we want to as long it satisfy our belief? I pointed clearly out that you come here with claiming to be unbiased and pick your (sunnis) favorite letter then ignore totally the sermon 3 that contradict clearly your interpretation or any interpretation that favors the three and their event of Saqifa. To be unbiased, you need to consider that too. If you read it, it is self evident without me to need to explain it to you.

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Imāmah is necessary to establish the Sharīʿa, to rule by the Book of Allāh, and the Sunnah of His Messenger ﷺ. Twelvers are unable to fulfill the purpose of Imāmah, so they have reengineered it to be a matter which is mystical, and messianic.

Unable is very wrong word to use when both of us have very different definition of the principle of Imamah. You guys are unbelievable to turn something that was originally divine choosed by God and turned the whole concept to opposite of it, becoming resemble of Sunni khalifa system.

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A Sunni caliphate is unlike a Zaydī Imāmah, since the conditions of a Zaydī Imāmah are - in a nutshell - the absolute uprightness of the Imām. Whereas, Sunnis don’t necessitate the same stringent conditions that Zaydīs maintain. 

You didn’t answer the question, I understand that our views in Imāmah differ. Yours serves nothing, and this is an objective fact that even your scholars attest to. 

As for “in principle” what exactly is that principle you’re referring to, because if one were to peruse all your works of Uṣūl they would find that Imāmah is fundamentally for the sake of guidance. 

With the occultation you have failed on guidance, and you have failed in leadership. The only reason anyone is a Shīʿī to begin with is because they think being a Shīʿa is being Pro-ʿAlid, and advancing Amīr al-Muʾminīn ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib. 

With your Imāmah you are sitting on straws, and that is putting it lightly. 

History is against you, the Qurʾān is against you, reason is against you, pragmatism is against you, Ḥadīth is against you. You have no leg to stand on. 
 

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5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!!

Salam you multiple times have repeated it due to your wrong interpretation form letter 6 of Nahjul Balagha which your nonsense have been refuted multiple time  anyway you repeat it again & again because you think that we have forgotten previous answers to your nonsense anyway surly any Shia has not called any of three caliph as their Imam which in similar fashion Sunnis have not called them as Imams which sunnis only have accepted their caliphate so therefore cursed Umayyads  & Abbasids  have called Shias as Rafida/Rafidis  due to rejection of authority & caliphate so then Imamate of three caliphs  which they have fabricated that narrations that rejection of caliphate of three caliphs is equal to disbelief (Kufr) which still now Wahabists  in similar fashion of  cursed Umayyads  & Abbasids have called shias as Rafida/Rafidis due to rejection of authority & caliphate so then Imamate of three caliphs because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) of  letter 6 of Nahjul balagha & in similar fashion rest of infallible Imams have not considered them as legitimate Imams .

5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Indeed, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) is worthy of being addressed as an Imam.

All Sunni scholars will agree with this. This is an honorary title for the people of great learning and knowledge. Just as Sunnis address Imam Bukhari, Imam Shafi’i, Imam Muslim, Imam Abu Hanifah etc etc (may Allah have Mercy on them).  This Imamate is not in sense that Shias take it to be.   

Imam Jaffar Sadiq (عليه السلام)  have guided people to truth & paradise but on the other hand  your fake Imams have guided people to falshood & hell so therefore you are right that  Imamate to falshood & hell doesn't sense about Shia Imams.

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7 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times (to explain religious text)

You are talking about one month, it appears that Sunni's are unable to comprehend for centuries what does it means where Quran says يهدون بامرنا although they translate it quite well :

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

32:24)(Sahih International) And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs.

The duties of Imam is not limited to explaining the religious texts, we have mentioned it many times earlier on this thread. 

8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Why he is in occultation? Because "he" feels it necessary to go into occultation? Because "he", for any xyz reason, deem it appropriate to go into occultation? Or his occultation is because of the divine command? 

If his occultation is because of divine command, then his appearance will also be in accordance with the divine command. That's in accordance with the concept of يهدون بامرنا. How little do you reflect!

8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

A kid like you always demand moon for playing انوکھا لاڈلا کھیلن کو مانگے چاند

What you think is destroyed, is perfectly stable and standing firmly, with millions of believers accepting that truth. What has been kept away from Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام، is "rijs". And we are thankful to you for showing us the level of your contamination. 

 

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Rafidi

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At the Time of Mu'awiya

In a letter to 'Amr b. al-'As, Mu'awiya called the companions of Marwan in opposing Imam Ali (a), "Rafida of Basra". From this report, it can be understood that whoever opposes the government, whether it be the government of truth or falsehood, he is called Rafida. Also, since Mu'awiya called his own followers Rafida, it can be concluded that it was not a negative title that time.[5]

Ibn A'tham reported a letter from Mu'awiya to 'Amr b. al-'As, in which Mu'awiya called the companions of Imam Ali (a) "Rafida of Basra".[6]

 

 

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At the Time of Imam al-Baqir (a)

In al-Mahasin, al-Barqi mentioned two hadiths, according to both, this term was common at the time of Imam al-Baqir (a), before the Uprising of Zayd. Abu l-Jarud says: a man told Imam al-Baqir (a): O the son of the apostle of Allah, people call us Rafidi. The Imam pointed to himself and said, "I am Rafidi too" and he repeated it three times.[7] Abu Basir says, I told Imam al-Baqir (a): may I be your sacrifice! by labeling us with a name the governors have legitimated all kinds of confiscation, prosecution, and killing of us. The Imam said: which label? I said: Rafidi; the Imam said: "seventy persons refused the participation in the army of Pharaoh and joined Moses, in comparison to the rest of Israelites they had a firmer faith in Moses and they loved Aaron more than others did; so Moses called them Rafidi, then it was revealed to Moses: record them in Torah by the same title (Rafidi) as I have chosen this name for them." Then the Imam said: "Allah has given you the same name."[8]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Rafidi

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5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

“Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.”  Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Refusal to Pay Allegiance

The only question which I want to clarify in this article is whether Ameerul Momeneen ((عليه السلام).) had paid allegiance to the Caliphs? Traditions and historical records from the Ahle Tasannun show that till Janabe Zahra (s.a.) was alive, she did not consent to Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) giving allegiance to Abu Bakr. After six months, when Janabe Zahra (s.a.) expired and the people stopped honouring Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) as before, he paid allegiance to Abu Bakr. History however gives us three proofs which contradict this version.

The First Argument

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The first instance is when Umar had formed a committee to select a caliph after him. This has been called “Shura” in history. Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).), Usman, Talhah, Zubair, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqaas and Abdur Rahman Ibn Auf were members of this committee....................................................

 

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Here, it should be mentioned that Abdur Rahman Ibn Auf was the brother-in-law of Usman. Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqaas and Abdur Rahman Ibn Auf were cousins and from the same family of Bani Makhzum. Looking at the tribal bias present among the Arabs, it is unthinkable that Sa’d would oppose Abdur Rahman or that Abdur Rahman would ignore Usman. In this way, three votes were already in Usman’s favour including the deciding vote of Abdur Rahman.

 

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Now, only Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) and Usman remained. For two days continuously, Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) presented such strong arguments proving his rights that all were dumb-founded.

 

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The actual aim of installing Usman as Caliph seemed to be getting foiled. In the night, Abdur Rahman Ibn Auf visited Amr al-Aas and narrated the delicate situation to him. Amr al-Aas suggested to him: “Tomorrow morning, you present the Caliphate to Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) on the condition that he would act according to the book of Allah, the way of the Prophet (S) and the method of the Caliphs. Ali ((عليه السلام).) would not accept the method of the Caliphs. Thereafter, you put the same conditions before Usman and he will gladly accept. Instantly, you pay allegiance to him.” At that time Abdur Rahman expressed his reservations that what if Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) accepted these conditions? Amr al-Aas replied that he will never accept the method of the Caliphs.

 

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As predicted, the same occurred on the third day. Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) flatly refused to accept the method of the previous Caliphs. The same conditions were put before Usman. He gladly accepted and was installed as the Caliph.

 

The Second Argument

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After meeting Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).), Umar Ibn Sa’d wrote to Ibn Ziyad that Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).) has agreed to return to Madinah or go to any border state and live like a common man or go to Yazid and after giving him the oath of allegiance accept his decision. (The third condition was added by Umar Ibn Sa’d himself and is not supported by any other historical document).

 

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This clearly indicates that neither Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) had paid allegiance to any one nor is Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).) going to do so. Had Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) given allegiance, Shimr would have definitely replied that since Ali ((عليه السلام).) has previously given allegiance, Husain ((عليه السلام).) too would follow suit.

 

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Also, this statement of Umar e Sa’d also refutes the third option (which he had added from his side) in his letter to Ibn Ziyad that Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).) is ready to pay allegiance to Yazid (l.a.). Now, in his argument with Shimr, he mentioned the fact that Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).) will never accept submission.

The Third Argument

Now let us analyse the (Sunni) view in relation to the allegiance. This view clearly states that neither Janabe Zahra (s.a.) has herself paid allegiance to Abu Bakr and Umar nor did her husband.

Whether Janabe Zahra (s.a.) knew the Imam of her time or not? If Abu Bakr was the Imam of the time then by refusing allegiance to him how can she be the leader of the women of Paradise?

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The virtues and merits of Janabe Zahra (s.a.) are an integral belief of all Muslim sects. She is a part of the Holy Prophet (S) and the leader of all the women as well as of the women of the Paradise. Yet, she has not given allegiance to Abu Bakr while the Holy Prophet (S) remarked, “One who dies without recognising the Imam of his time he dies the death of Jaahiliyyah (disbelief).”

It is also worth noting that according to Shia belief,

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both Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) and Janabe Zahra (s.a.) were infallible. Neither paid allegiance to Abu Bakr for six months. This proves that near them the Caliphate of Abu Bakr was baseless and only by refusing allegiance to him they can remain on the path of truth. If refusal of allegiance was the correct thing for six months, how can giving the allegiance become the correct thing after six months? If paying allegiance was the right thing to do, then why Janabe Zahra (s.a.) opposed it throughout her life and Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) stayed away from it for six months.

 

Conclusion

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It is clear that refusing allegiance is a completely separate matter from that of giving correct advice when asked for. Avoiding bloodshed in-spite of opposition is again a separate issue altogether.

It is now beyond doubt that Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) hadn’t paid allegiance. Why did he then give correct advice when asked for on various occasions? Among the many reasons for this is the saying of the Holy Prophet (S) that, “When advice is sought from a person then he should be true”.

Thus, correct advice should be given. Also, these advices used to be given for the benefit of the Islamic Ummah. As the true Imam, it was the duty of Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) that he protects the interest of the Ummah.

As for avoiding bloodshed

 

6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Indeed, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) is worthy of being addressed as an Imam.

 

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Zaid Ibn Khalid referred to Imam Jafar Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) the objection of some people that why Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).) avoided fighting if was on the truth? He ((عليه السلام).) replied that to fight in absence of reliable supporters is the responsibility given only to one person and that is the Holy Prophet of Islam (S). He is supposed to wage a war all alone even in the absence of supporters as is mentioned in the Holy Quran:

“Fight then in Allah’s way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself. . . ” Surah Nisaa, 4:Verse 84

For other people Allah mentions that:

“And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day– unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company– then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.” Surah Anfaal, 8: Verse 16

 

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Finally, Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said,

“Ali ((عليه السلام).) did not have a group which would help him in this. Hence waging a war was not his responsibility. If he had a group of supporters he would definitely have done so.”2

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ali-ibn-abi-talib-and-allegiance-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

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5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

1. Imāmah is necessary to establish the Sharīʿa, to rule by the Book of Allāh, and the Sunnah of His Messenger ﷺ.

2. Twelvers are unable to fulfill the purpose of Imāmah, so they have reengineered it to be a matter which is mystical, and messianic

Salam!!

1. This is half truth. Mentioning the tashri'i role of Imam only. 

2. Twelvers emphasize on tashri'i as well as takwini role of Imams. Tashri'i role are solely dependent on the امر of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). As He is the absolute guide and He guides whomever He wills to guide. And He leaves whomever He wills to leave in the darkness of misguidance. 

As for the takwini role of Imam, his existence is necessary for the existence of rest of the creation as mentioned in many ahadith. 

If you want to differ with this explanation, the best thing we can exercise is "waiting", so wait and we too are waiting. Neither Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has forced you to believe on Imamah of 12 infallible Imams, nor are we forcing you. But at least try to concentrate on exploring what do we mean by "takwini role of Imam".

Shake your intellect a bit, what is that which has kept the humanity and rest of the creation intact even after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)? A sajdah of the purified member of Aal e Muhammad عليهم السلام or something else? Where the امر of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) descend if there is no صاحب امر? Who is the اولى الامر now and what does Ulil Amr even means? Who is witness over you now? 

وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ

22:78

Wassalam!!

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8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

Salam you oppose way of Sahabas because prominent Sahabas who both of shias & sunnis  have respected & followed them have not given allegiance to Abubakr which according to Sunni doctrine you must follow Sahabs without thinking because Sunni doctrine is based on following them without using your brain even for 1 minute .

 

List of Sahaba not giving bay'ah to Abu Bakr


*Abu Dharr al-Ghifari
*Miqdad ibn Aswad
*Ammar ibn Yasir
*Khalid ibn Sa`id A Shi'i-Sunni dialogue on al-Islam.org [http://al-islam.org/murajaat/80.htm] ]
*Buraida Aslami
*Miqdad ibn Umar

Banu Hashim

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*Ali Gave bayh a short time later. Bukhari|5|59|546] The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, section [http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume2/chap50.htm Reign of Abubeker; A.D. 632, June 7.] ] Shi'a encyclopedia [http://www.al-islam.org/Organizations/Aalimnetwork/msg00166.html] quoting from Ibn Qutaybah, Muhammad al-Bukhari, Massudi, Ibn Abu al-Hadid] Ibn Qutaybah, vol. 1, p.29; quoted in Ayoub, 2003, 18 [http://islamichistory.wordpress.com/files/2006/12/the-succession-to-muhammad-web-edition.ppt] ] Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, vol. 3, p.208; Ayoub, 2003, 21 [http://islamichistory.wordpress.com/files/2006/12/the-succession-to-muhammad-web-edition.ppt] ] Imamate: The Vicegerency of the Prophet by Sa'id Akhtar Rizvi, quoting Ibn Qutaybah on [http://www.al-islam.org/ Al-islam.org] [http://www.al-islam.org/imamate/3.htm] ] muslim|19|4352]


*Fatima bint Muhammad- daughter of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
*Hassan ibn Ali (AS)-son of Fatima and Ali (عليه السلام)
*Hussain ibn Ali (AS)- son of Fatima and Ali (عليه السلام)
*Zainab bint Ali (AS)- daughter of Fatima and Ali(عليه السلام)
*Umm Kalthum bint Ali (AS)-Daughter of Fatima and Ali (عليه السلام)
*`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib
*Fadl ibn Abbas
*`Abd Allah ibn `Abbas
*The rest of the Banu Hashim [A man asked al-Zuhri, “Did Ali not give his oath of allegiance for six months?” “No, nor anyone of the Banu Hashim until Ali rendered his,” he replied. Source: History of the Prophets and Kings, Volume 9, pages 196, 197. State University of New York Press, 1993. Translated by Ismail K. Poonawala]

 

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Banu Asad

 


*Zubayr ibn al-Awwam

Ansars

 


*Abu Ayyub al-Ansari
*Jabir ibn Abd-Allah
*Uthman ibn Hunaif
*Hudhaifa ibn Yaman
*Khuzaima ibn Thabit
*Abu'l-Hathama ibn Tihan
*Sahl ibn Hunaif
*Farwah ibn `Amr ibn Wadqah al-Ansari

Banu Khazraj

 


*Sa'd ibn Ubaida To be with the Truthful by Muhammad al-Tijaniquoting Sahih Bukhari on [http://www.al-islam.orgAl-islam.org] [http://www.quran.al-islam.org/truthful/2.htm] ]
*Ubay ibn Ka'b

 

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Uncategorized

 


*Salman the Persian Peshawar Nights on Al-Islam.org [http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/7.2.html] ] Tarikh al-Yaqubias quoted in Peshawar Nights on [http://www.al-islam.orgAl-islam.org] [http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/7.2.html] ]
*Uthman ibn Hunaif Tarikh al-Yaqubias quoted in Peshawar Nights on [http://www.al-islam.orgAl-islam.org] [http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/7.2.html] . Alsoa list composed of sources such as Ibn Hajar Asqalani and Baladhurieach in his Ta'rikhMuhammad Bin Khawind Shah in his Rauzatu's-SafaIbn Abdu'l-Birr in his Isti'ab ]
*Zayd ibn Arqam
*Al-Bara ibn Azib
*Qais ibn Sa'd

 

Detailed list

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/4049328

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8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

20. Instructions for good administration.

Ali ((عليه السلام)) ruled the Muslim nation only for five years, because of satanic plots and intrigues against him. Civil wars, mutiny, and false accusations of the murder of Osman. Ali ((عليه السلام)) was not allowed to establish the universal ideal government of perfect justice. (Gist from Nahjol Balagha)

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) has given instructions to rulers for the good administration of a country. A summary of these rules is as follows:

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a) There should be a permanent leader as a representative of God. He should be strictly just and pious and implement the laws from the book of God, the holy Quran; he should be valiant, wise, and well aware of all conditions of his time. Vali e Faqih is a permanent leader as representative of Imam e Asr (A.F)

b) Rulers should be kind and loving towards their subjects & not wrathful. Anger and vengeance do not assist good administration. Rulers and officers should win confidence as friends and benefactors of their subjects or subordinates. Rulers should be tolerant of the mistakes of their subjects.

c) Muslims should be treated as brothers, and non-Muslims as human beings with due justice

d) The best persons should be selected as secretaries for civil, judicial, and military services irrespective of age and period of service.

e) At first, appointments should be made on probation, to assess the ability and potentialities of the employees

f) Confidential and reliable staff should report the activities and behavior of officers.

g) Officers should be well paid to prevent bribery and corruption.

h) Persons who committed atrocities and torture in the service of oppressive rulers should not be employed in service. Advisors of rulers should be kind-hearted, truthful, and honest.

i) One’s duties towards God and mankind should not be waived off; lest favoritism should make one unjust (e.g. the third khalifa Osman was killed because of favoritism for Bani Omayyads). All officers should exercise their power and experience in matters related to them and should not be dictated by their favorite subordinates.

j) Merchants and traders should be well patronized but they should be prevented from black marketing, hoarding, and making excessive profits.

k) Farmers make a country wealthy (by the production of cereals, fruits, grains, vegetables, sugar, etc and also by the production of eggs & poultry and lambs and cattle & so on) Farmers should be provided with all facilities.

l) Handicrafts should be encouraged to eliminate poverty. Industries should be established.

m) The poor, disabled, and orphans should never be humiliated or treated with contempt. They should be given easy access and all help.

n) Avoid bloodshed; no one should be killed unless prescribed in the Islamic law by God.

o) Promises and terms of a treaty should always be respected.

 

https://shiastudies.com/en/11195/11195/

http://shiastudies.com/en/3727/golden-words-of-the-leader-of-the-believers-imam-ali-a-s/

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9 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

Justice

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Justice

Fu¤ayl ibn al-Ja`d reports: The main reason the Arabs did not support Imam `Ali was the wealth. He never preferred an Arab to a non-Arab or an aristocrat to an ordinary man. He never compromised with the chiefs of tribes nor with the kings. That is why the people abandoned `Ali and joined Mu`awiyah. `Ali complained to Malik Ashtar of his companions, failure to support him and the escape of some of them to Mu`awiyah. Malik Ashtar too would say, “O Amir al-Mu’minin! Some people cannot tolerate your justice, for they are the people of the world! May Allah pave the way for your justice, oppress your enemies, disperse them, foil their plan and break their unity against you: Surely He is Aware of what they do.”

In response, `Ali said, “As for our just acts, Allah says:

مَنْ عَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلِنَفْسِهِ وَمَنْ أَسَاءَ فَعَلَيْهَا وَمَا رَبُّكَ بِظَلَّامٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ (46)

Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against it; and your Lord is not in the least unjust to the servants. (41: 46)

As for your opinion that justice is hard for them hence they abandoned us, Allah knows that they did not leave us for any injustice. They left us for worldly riches, a world which they will leave and on the Judgment Day. They will be questioned whether they fought for the world or Allah! As for saying that we do not give away to them from the public fund, we cannot give them more than what they deserve. Allah says:

كَم مِّن فِئَةٍ قَلِيلَةٍ غَلَبَتْ فِئَةً كَثِيرَةً بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ (249)

How often has a small party vanquished numerous hosts by Allah’s permission, and Allah is with the patient. (2:249).

Allah commissioned Muhammad as a prophet with a small number of people around him but they increased in number and honored them while they were humiliated before. If Allah wills, He will support us, remove our problems and sorrows. I approve of your union which pleases Allah. You are the most benevolent and trustworthy of them with me, Allah willing.”[14]

 

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Justice in The Court

Once a plaintiff lodged a complaint before Umar ibn al-Khattab, the Caliph of those days. Both parties of litigation should appear before the court and lay their complaints. The one against whom the complaint was lodged was Imam `Ali ((عليه السلام)). Convoking both parties, Umar went and sat down on the seat of judgment. According to the Islamic law, both parties ought to station next to each other and the principle of equality before the Tribunal should be respected. Accordingly, the Caliph called out the plaintiff by name and beckoned him to stand up in a peculiar place before the judge. Then he turned to `Ali and said, “O Abu’l-Hasan! Place yourself next to your plaintiff.” On hearing these words, `Ali became apparently angry.” The caliph said, “O `Ali, you do not want to stand next to your adversary.” `Ali said, “No, that is not the reason for my anger; the reason is that you have not entirely respected the norms of justice, for you called me respectfully by my nickname Abu’l-Hasan but you called the other person by his ordinary name.” Umar hugged the Imam and kissed him between the eyes saying, “May my father be your ransom! Allah guided us with your mediation and brought us out of darkness into light through you.”[10]

Examples of Imam `Ali’s ((عليه السلام).) Moral Virtues

https://www.erfan.ir/english/47782.html

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9 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

Salam,

I had a few quick questions, if you don't mind.

1. What is your view on the Prophet's (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ) infallibility, or lack of? Is it complete? Or, is it limited to the propagation of religion?

2. From the time of Adam (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) to the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ), was there always a "guide" on earth?

3. If you answered "Yes" to number 2, shouldn't the burden of proof fall on you to prove that it's not the case any more? So, I have to ask what changed?

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Sunnis have narrated from ‘Abdullah bin Mas‘ud that he said, “I asked the Prophet of Allah, ‘Who will bathe you after your demise?’ The holy Prophet replied, ‘Every Prophet is given a bath by his Wasi.’ I asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah! Who is your Wasi?’ He replied, ‘‘Ali bin Abi-Talib.’ I asked, ‘O Prophet of Allah! How long will he live after you?’ He said, ‘Thirty years as Yusha‘ ibn Nun the legatee of Musa and Safra daughter of Shu‘ayb revolted against him (Yusha‘) and had said, ‘I am more entitled than you to be ruler of The Israelites.’ Yusha‘ fought her, destroyed her army and arrested her. After capturing her he behaved nicely with her and in this way the daughter of so and so will along with thousands of men of my Ummah revolt against ‘Ali. ‘Ali will defeat her army, make her captive and will behave nicely to her after arresting her.’ This verse has come in that connection:

(O Wives of the Prophet). Remain seated in your house and...... do not come out in a style of olden day ignorance. And said that olden day ignorance means coming out in the field like Safra daughter of Shu‘ayb.”

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-musa-and-harun

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Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 

Twelver :- Imamah is an intellectual necessity. We all know how quran and sunnah does not contain detailed rulings, so our intellect says that Allah should  send an infallible imam alongside quran and sunnah at all times who would explain religious rulings, protect it, explain us quran and sunnah. How could sunnis even ask this. How could sunnis believe that Allah could leave this religion without an infallible guide so that Muslims get the perfect, free from mistake, pure version of Islam and perfect guidance in fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer etc. Seriously believing otherwise of the twelver imamah is an insult to intellect and is against Allah's kindness. How can Allah leave this religion in the hands of fallible people who could unintentionally destroy the correct version of Islam. 

Sunni :- then why did Allah deprive humanity from direct contact of the imam for 1200 years for some mysterious reason who could explain them their religion instead he leave his religion in the hands of fallible ayatullahs. 

Twelver :- ah um well guidance is of two types, tashrii and takwini, um ah you are a wahabi umawi nasbi um ah it's the rijs in you which is not enabling you to understand um ah saqifa um ah a kid like you always demand the moon for playing bla bla bla. 

May Allah shower his blessings upon his beloved prophet, his family and his companions. 

 

Edited by sunni muslim
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19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

A Sunni caliphate is unlike a Zaydī Imāmah, since the conditions of a Zaydī Imāmah are - in a nutshell - the absolute uprightness of the Imām. Whereas, Sunnis don’t necessitate the same stringent conditions that Zaydīs maintain. 

You didn’t answer the question, I understand that our views in Imāmah differ. Yours serves nothing, and this is an objective fact that even your scholars attest to. 

As for “in principle” what exactly is that principle you’re referring to, because if one were to peruse all your works of Uṣūl they would find that Imāmah is fundamentally for the sake of guidance. 

With the occultation you have failed on guidance, and you have failed in leadership. The only reason anyone is a Shīʿī to begin with is because they think being a Shīʿa is being Pro-ʿAlid, and advancing Amīr al-Muʾminīn ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib. 

With your Imāmah you are sitting on straws, and that is putting it lightly. 

History is against you, the Qurʾān is against you, reason is against you, pragmatism is against you, Ḥadīth is against you. You have no leg to stand on. 
 

Exactly, these twelvers accept any excuse given by their scholars for occultation

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On 10/2/2022 at 4:36 PM, sunni muslim said:

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

Did you seriously use a bomb reference as a sunni? 

What is it about your creed and suicide-bombings?

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6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 

Twelver :- Imamah is an intellectual necessity. We all know how quran and sunnah does not contain detailed rulings, so our intellect says that Allah should  send an infallible imam alongside quran and sunnah at all times who would explain religious rulings, protect it, explain us quran and sunnah. How could sunnis even ask this. How could sunnis believe that Allah could leave this religion without an infallible guide so that Muslims get the perfect, free from mistake, pure version of Islam and perfect guidance in fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer etc. Seriously believing otherwise of the twelver imamah is an insult to intellect and is against Allah's kindness. How can Allah leave this religion in the hands of fallible people who could unintentionally destroy the correct version of Islam. 

Sunni :- then why did Allah deprive humanity from direct contact of the imam for 1200 years for some mysterious reason who could explain them their religion instead he leave his religion in the hands of fallible ayatullahs. 

Twelver :- ah um well guidance is of two types, tashrii and takwini, um ah you are a wahabi umawi nasbi um ah it's the rijs in you which is not enabling you to understand um ah saqifa um ah a kid like you always demand the moon for playing bla bla bla. 

May Allah shower his blessings upon his beloved prophet, his family and his companions. 

 

I like what you did here...looks like you are emulating someone on ShiaChat.

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6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Exactly, these twelvers accept any excuse given by their scholars for occultation

Really? Dude, you believe a rock stole Hz.Musa's clothes and left him naked.

You take the Father of Kittens as your most profilic narrator of ahadith. Meow, meow... :D

Edited by ShiaMan14
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7 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 

Twelver :- Imamah is an intellectual necessity. We all know how quran and sunnah does not contain detailed rulings, so our intellect says that Allah should  send an infallible imam alongside quran and sunnah at all times who would explain religious rulings, protect it, explain us quran and sunnah. How could sunnis even ask this. How could sunnis believe that Allah could leave this religion without an infallible guide so that Muslims get the perfect, free from mistake, pure version of Islam and perfect guidance in fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer etc. Seriously believing otherwise of the twelver imamah is an insult to intellect and is against Allah's kindness. How can Allah leave this religion in the hands of fallible people who could unintentionally destroy the correct version of Islam. 

Sunni :- then why did Allah deprive humanity from direct contact of the imam for 1200 years for some mysterious reason who could explain them their religion instead he leave his religion in the hands of fallible ayatullahs. 

Twelver :- ah um well guidance is of two types, tashrii and takwini, um ah you are a wahabi umawi nasbi um ah it's the rijs in you which is not enabling you to understand um ah saqifa um ah a kid like you always demand the moon for playing bla bla bla. 

May Allah shower his blessings upon his beloved prophet, his family and his companions. 

 

Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 

Twelver :- here are 3 ayahs that prove it

Sunni : I will ignore those ayahs because they disagree with my narrative. What else you got?

Twelver :- so The Book of Allah is not sufficient for you?

Sunni : only when convenient - hasbona kitaballah selectively.

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 

Twelver :- here are 3 ayahs that prove it

Sunni : I will ignore those ayahs because they disagree with my narrative. What else you got?

Twelver :- so The Book of Allah is not sufficient for you?

Sunni : only when convenient - hasbona kitaballah selectively.

Nice try. Try again. 

And also, your concept of imamah is still false. And imamah and ghaybah are still contradictory beliefs. 

Edited by sunni muslim
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9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Really? Dude, you believe a rock stole Hz.Musa's clothes and left him naked.

Just have the time to response to this one. Really? At times some ‘players’ are so keen to score a goal that in the heat of moment they score an own goal!!!!!! And then still feel gratified that they managed to get on the score sheet!!!!! :woot:

Similar hadith can be found in your Shi'a book:

في تفسير على بن إبراهيم حدثني أبى عن النضر بن سويد عن صفوان عن أبى بصير عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام ان بنى إسرائيل كانوا يقولون ليس لموسى ما للرجال، و كان موسى إذا أراد الاغتسال ذهب الى موضع لا يراه فيه أحد، فكان يوما يغتسل على شط نهر و قد وضع ثيابه على صخرة، فأمر الله عز و جل الصخرة فتباعدت عنه حتى نظر بنوا إسرائيل اليه فعلموا ان ليس كما قالوا، فأنزل الله: يا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسى‏

From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) that the Banī Isrā`īl used to say Mūsa that he was not like (other) men. Mūsa (عليه السلام) wanted to wash himself, and he went to a place where no one from the people can see him. And it was day, and he was washing himself on the shore of a river and he placed his clothes on a rock. And Allāh commanded the rock to run away from him until the Banū Isrā`īl saw him, and they knew he is not like what they said, and Allāh revealed, “O ye who believe! Be not as those who slandered Moses, but Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, and he was well esteemed in Allah's sight”. (Verse 69 Surah al-Ahzab) Source: al-Qummi, Tafseer, (Qum: Daar al-Kitaab, 3rd ed., 1404), vol. 2, pg. 197

Now you did not know that Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) (Keep in mind that you take him to be an infallible Imam, so you cannot doubt or contradict his sayings) and prominent Shia scholars are in agreement with the hadith which you were mocking at. You can confirm with Shia scholars of the references given from the Shias books.  “Roarrrr” “Roarrrr” :D

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5 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Nice try. Try again. 

And also, your concept of imamah is still false. And imamah and ghaybah are still contradictory beliefs. 

You still haven't answered who is the Imam you will be raised with on the Day of Judgement or have you resigned to the fact that you will be raised blind?

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31 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Just have the time to response to this one. Really? At times some ‘players’ are so keen to score a goal that in the heat of moment they score an own goal!!!!!! And then still feel gratified that they managed to get on the score sheet!!!!! :woot:

Similar hadith can be found in your Shi'a book:

في تفسير على بن إبراهيم حدثني أبى عن النضر بن سويد عن صفوان عن أبى بصير عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام ان بنى إسرائيل كانوا يقولون ليس لموسى ما للرجال، و كان موسى إذا أراد الاغتسال ذهب الى موضع لا يراه فيه أحد، فكان يوما يغتسل على شط نهر و قد وضع ثيابه على صخرة، فأمر الله عز و جل الصخرة فتباعدت عنه حتى نظر بنوا إسرائيل اليه فعلموا ان ليس كما قالوا، فأنزل الله: يا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسى‏

From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) that the Banī Isrā`īl used to say Mūsa that he was not like (other) men. Mūsa (عليه السلام) wanted to wash himself, and he went to a place where no one from the people can see him. And it was day, and he was washing himself on the shore of a river and he placed his clothes on a rock. And Allāh commanded the rock to run away from him until the Banū Isrā`īl saw him, and they knew he is not like what they said, and Allāh revealed, “O ye who believe! Be not as those who slandered Moses, but Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, and he was well esteemed in Allah's sight”. (Verse 69 Surah al-Ahzab) Source: al-Qummi, Tafseer, (Qum: Daar al-Kitaab, 3rd ed., 1404), vol. 2, pg. 197

Now you did not know that Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) (Keep in mind that you take him to be an infallible Imam, so you cannot doubt or contradict his sayings) and prominent Shia scholars are in agreement with the hadith which you were mocking at. You can confirm with Shia scholars of the references given from the Shias books.  “Roarrrr” “Roarrrr” :D

I hope you realize that we dont accept all hadith as sahih.

Verse 69 of Surah Ahzab doesn't refer to this miracle rock story but refers to the incident where Qarun accused Hz. Musa of adultery and was proven wrong - the slander was adultery that was disproven, not Musa's private parts.

Secondly, a Prophet of Allah is the Allah's authority on Earth. Musa had authority over the rock and not the other way around, so no Musa did not run after a magical rock.

Anything else?

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47 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You still haven't answered who is the Imam you will be raised with on the Day of Judgement or have you resigned to the fact that you will be raised blind?

Indeed. Because it is irrelevant to the debate. Stick to the topic and try to answer the obvious contradiction between twelver shia imamah and ghaybah instead of questioning irrelevant questions. The topic is 'is there an intellectual necessity of imamah' not 'who is the imam of sunni muslims'. 

And the answer to that question is prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is the greatest imam of mankind. 

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On 10/3/2022 at 5:10 AM, Zaidism said:

A Sunni caliphate is unlike a Zaydī Imāmah, since the conditions of a Zaydī Imāmah are - in a nutshell - the absolute uprightness of the Imām. Whereas, Sunnis don’t necessitate the same stringent conditions that Zaydīs maintain. 

There is no absolute uprightness of fallible human beings, so this itself is a faulty reasoning. Because a fallible human being can not be an absolute in good character. If it was just uprightness then it would make more sense, but that itself would be not much different from Sunnis either. And don't ignore other similarities with Sunnis.

Second how did Imamah turned from divine choosed by God (like wilayah of Imam Ali (as)) to the hands of fallible ones?

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You didn’t answer the question, I understand that our views in Imāmah differ. Yours serves nothing, and this is an objective fact that even your scholars attest to. 

As for “in principle” what exactly is that principle you’re referring to, because if one were to peruse all your works of Uṣūl they would find that Imāmah is fundamentally for the sake of guidance. 

Then you clearly don't comprehend what our scholars attest to. How it is so hard for you or any of these Sunnis understand that the concept of Ghaybah of Imam who is not active itself is a possibility (even demonstrated, like the absence of Musa (عليه السلام) from his community). Do you understand that logically it is not impossible or contradiction of God Will or God System?

Where it says in Qur'an that to be an Imam, they must be always actively serving, guiding and present? Rather it says they only follow the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This will open two possible scenarios, active or non-active. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decided to postpone, then there is no logical contradiction in His decision.

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History is against you, the Qurʾān is against you, reason is against you, pragmatism is against you, Ḥadīth is against you. You have no leg to stand on. 

If you want to show that they are, then start to show proof, because your statement will be just meaningless itself.

Edited by Abu Nur
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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Yes! just accept that it is in your books too on the authority of Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him). Your not accepting it won't rub it off your books :grin:

being in a book doesn't make it right nor do I have to believe it. I am not bound by sunni (il)logic.

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2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Indeed. Because it is irrelevant to the debate. Stick to the topic and try to answer the obvious contradiction between twelver shia imamah and ghaybah instead of questioning irrelevant questions. The topic is 'is there an intellectual necessity of imamah' not 'who is the imam of sunni muslims'. 

And the answer to that question is prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is the greatest imam of mankind. 

you answered the question yourself. 

You asked: Is there an intellectual necessity of imamah?

I asked: Who is your Imam?

You answered: Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Clearly there is an intellectual necessity for imamah because you just accepted you have an Imam in Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Now, the question of who is the Imam now, is it 12 imams, 9 imams, 6 imams, 4 imams is a different topic.

It only took 2 months and some hundred posts to reach this conclusion :) 

Edited by ShiaMan14
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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

being in a book doesn't make it right nor do I have to believe it. I am not bound by sunni (il)logic.

So, it got into your books on the authority of Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) and and prominent Shia scholars agreed to it by Shia(il)logic!!!! :D I know it hurts to score an own goal :cry: Now you are trying to wiggle out from this. Now that you have scored it, enjoy it.  You over smartly tried to throw a pie on others but it landed on your own face. Just tasted it.

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Sahih books have a very great effect in their head that sometimes they forget this.

Have you ever seen them hitting their heads!  

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