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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

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2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It is not. It is just your imagination that sunnis don't follow the ahlul bayt. We don't restrict ahlul bayt to ali, fatima, hasnayn. We have a broader concept of ahlul bayt. 

 

Whatever that concept is it is wrong. It is absolutely clear that the Ahl Albayt are these 5 - The Rasooll ﷺ Ali, Fatima, Hassan & Hussein (asj). This is agreed unanimous among serious religious scholars across the islamic schools of thought Sunni and Shia. No wives, no father in law, no second cousin or uncle - just these 5.

I do not pretend to know what all Sunni's follow, but I can assume that the vast majority will repeat your mantra - we love the AhlAlbayt, and we know you do. Too many Shi'a are the same as you, they love but don't follow their instruction or manners.But the command from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not the Prophet ﷺ or the Sahaba or Ali (عليه السلام) or anyone else but from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is; follow - 1. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), 2. The Prophet ﷺ & 3. Ali(عليه السلام). The the prophet ﷺ said to you hold onto the book and my family - we just agreed this.

I didn't make this up, its in YOOUR books and ours and the QURAN. The book that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to the Prophet and said to him READ. Now if he has to read it and he is better than all of humanity, then brother you need to read it and trust it and believe it and follow it with honesty. This is for your salvation not mine. Don't be afraid of what you find, there is no fear in the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has blessed you and that blessing is going to be your biggest burden - you have the intellect to process, the capacity to understand and the iman to find the right path -  do you have the courage to follow it.

If you're not here to learn and understand and grow then what, so you can argue with a bunch of Kuffar, Taquyyi weilding, raffidi shia who are going to move you away from the right path. Im sure you have better things to do in service of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I also have a concern how can I follow the sunnah supposedly narrated by ahlul bayt when they narrated something like this. 

Oh my, you got us. Though I have to tell you I am ever so greatfull for our scholars. Here is what they say generally agree on. And yes some believe all of them but every group has their extremists;

Probable issuance of most of the hadiths and the reliability of those with reliable chains of transmitters: the most popular view among Shiite Usuli jurists is that, except for a FEW mutawatir hadiths, other hadiths in al-Kafi are only probably attributed to the Infallibles (a), and they are reliable only if their chains of transmitters fulfill certain conditions, although there are disagreements over these conditions

See it is generally recognised that the Hadith, any of them Sunni and Shia, are the work of men, fallible men. The Quran is protect by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), these books are not. We don't need to elevate the status of anyone with them nor do we need to lower others in them. The Sunni hadith are an attempt to lower the Prophet ﷺ , make allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "reachable, human ... the christian influence is clear", and remove the AhlAlbayt (hardly mentioned let alone used as sources). Hadith & companions been smashed into your heads so hard you forgot Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his messenger ﷺ.

Just find out who you should be following, then solve how you should follow them. This is below you, petty arguments - he said she said. Nothing to hide, take it or leave it its up to you. Isn't that funny, because we are the ones being accused of putting things between us and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Come over brother, it will be easier to find the right path together than separately.

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2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Your books have much disgusting thing ya akhi.

Thank you for not offering a rebuttal to my statement, it shows that you accept the clear proofs. But we know that these works are not perfect, they are written by men who are prone to error in a era very different to the one where information is easy to acquire and who where subject to political and sectarian pressure.

And in that, you have answered the question you originally posed; Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary? It is precisely for this reason, the word of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can not be left to fallible men, like those who wrote these Hadith books, like the ones elected before the body of Allah Messenger ﷺ was cold and buried, like the ones who banned what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made permissible, like the ones who plundered the umma and put their kin in power. Like the ones appointed who would later go onto slaughter the family of Allahs Messenger ﷺ. The reason we need an imamah is the reason you and I need imamah, to practice the religion allah sent to his messenger ﷺ free from the Fallibility of even the best intentioned of men.

Salam

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10 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

There is no proof of that. And for your kind information, there is no consensus regarding this issue. Consensus of shia scholars are not any hujjah. If you have guts then say khadija the wife of the prophet, and zainab bint ali the sister of hussain are not ahlul bayt, if you believe only these 5 are ahlul bayt. 

your own books, im not giving you ref, if you care to find them you will find them, if you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing then again I ask you, why are you hear? to argue?

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12 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

f you want me to convert to shiism the so called true path, then sorry.

you dont convert to Shiaism, you you just accept that There is no god but Allah, That Mohammad ﷺ is the Messenger of Allah and Ali(عليه السلام) is your imam after the prophet ﷺ  - its not hard, 3:61 Brother - Allah has made it so easy for you. The Hadith and Hussein (عليه السلام) and the detail, your a bright guy you will work out - we tend to be a little less :"crazy ". There is no conversion Brother, your a Muslim, walla I hope your heart is pure and Allah knows best. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Tafsir Al-Qommi 2/172-173

This is from WikiShia:

Distortion of the Story

By gossiping about this marriage, hypocrites and polytheists affronted the Prophet (s). In order to damage the Prophet's reputation, some hypocrites gossiped that the Prophet's desire for Zaynab caused the separation between Zayd and her.[24]24 They narrated various incoherent and sometimes contradictory stories in this regard. Some exegetes of the Qur'an mentioned these stories in their commentaries on the 37th verse of Quran 33.[25].[26]

Studying the accounts about this event indicates that the first/seventh century exegetes, most probably made up these accounts based on the story of David and Uriya in the Old Testament.[27] Ibn Hajar pointed that some narrators of these accounts are unreliable.[28] However, Bosworth has explained the story of the Prophet's marriage to Zaynab based on these biased accounts.[29]

Your struggling to find anything worthwhile. We, Shia't Ali (عليه السلام) have already addressed this one beautifully so non muslims can't take advantage of the Prophets ﷺ . If you have more I'd be more than happy to see them. Simply because in the process of studying them I am educated about the events and characteristics of the Prophets ﷺ life and it helps paint a clearer picture for me. This brother strengthens my Iman and further cements my believe that "imamah is essential" - I am on the right path Nshallah. For that I thank you - "be like a rose that gives its fragrance even to the hand that crush it" Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) 

 

Edited by Mohamad_ali
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

And in that, you have answered the question you originally posed; Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary? It is precisely for this reason, the word of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can not be left to fallible men,

Absolute nonsense. God did leave religion in the hands of fallible men. Even the shia hadith of the ' infallibles are narrated by fallible men who belong to misguided sects according to you. Shia claim that the religion cannot be trusted to fallible people, and the deen of the imams are transmitted by fallible, and those ahadith are collected by deviant. What a joke. 

If there is a need of an infallible imam at all times to guard this religion, explain and clarify the Quran and sunnah, then the imam of the time has no excuse to stay in his ghaybah, he must come out, and start benifitting us in religion, if he doesn't, then there is no need of an infallible imam at all time, and shia fundamental belief of imamah is just philosophical nonsense. 

19 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

like the ones elected before the body of Allah Messenger ﷺ was cold and buried, like the ones who banned what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made permissible,

Sorry to break your heart. Imam hasan also divorces a lot according to your authentic narrations. A nasbi can say the same thing about hasan what you are saying about the companions. 

19 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

like the ones who plundered the umma and put their kin in power

Sorry, if putting one's kon into power, then surely ali is also involved in this. Abu bakr and umar never put their relatives into power. Heck, umar didn't appointed said bin zaid in the 6 men shura, despite him being one of the 10 promised paradise, just because he was the husband of umar's sister. Usman and ali did put their relatives into powers. Ali appointed abdullah bin abbas, ubaydullah bin abbas, qutham bin abbas and many more. 

 

19 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

The reason we need an imamah is the reason you and I need imamah, to practice the religion allah sent to his messenger ﷺ free from the Fallibility of even the best intentioned of men.

And, the imam of our time, doesn't benifit us in any matter, whether religious or worldy matter. 

 

19 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

you dont convert to Shiaism, you you just accept that There is no god but Allah, That Mohammad ﷺ is the Messenger of Allah and Ali(عليه السلام) is your imam after the prophet ﷺ  - its not hard, 3:61 Brother - Allah has made it so easy for you. The Hadith and Hussein (عليه السلام) and the detail, your a bright guy you will work out - we tend to be a little less :"crazy ". There is no conversion Brother, your a Muslim, walla I hope your heart is pure and Allah knows best. 

I will never. There is no proof of that ali is the appointed imam after the prophet. There is not absingle sahih report in our corpus that clearly says ali is the successor after me. 

 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

 

 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I can't believe in a madhab which says there must be an infallible guide at all times to expound the sunnah and then also believe that the infallible guide is hidden 1200 years ago. I don't believe in such type of nonsense. 

1- As per history of Islam 11 earlier Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were killed and martyred by the oppressors of the  ummah and tyrant rulers. Thus Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept back his last sign keeping away from our eyes in occultation period. The same is true for the prophet Esa (عليه السلام) that is alive and away from our eyes.

When Imam Mahdi is permitted by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to appear to our eyes he will come out and the prophet Esa as will also come and he will say prayer behind imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the ultimate authority that permits guidance for the nation or a person and even the prophet has assigned responsibility to deliver the message only. Likewise the Imam Mahdi has been kept away from our eyes for this test and trial period of the ummah so that the believers and who do not believe in the right guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as defined in the hadiths  can be segregated.

2- Even the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is in ghayb for 1400 years and he cannot be seen by our eyes and the guidance function has not stopped as it is mentioned in quran and sunnah. Do you deny the guidance function by the prophet?

Thus the angels cannot be seen as they are in ghayb yet they perform their assigned tasks. The property of not being seen does not affect their tasks completion. Do you deny the functions by angels?

The same aspect is true for leader /12th imam and he cannot be seen for more than 1200 years but guidance function has not been ceased as he is performing his duties like angels perform his duties and cannot be seen. This is complete in conformance to the concept defined in the verses of quran.

3- It is our belief that here is no end or cessation of the guidance by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams. There are many evidence well defined in the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), as quoted the given link:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235077613-guidance-functions-including-guidance-from-12th-imam-al-mahdi/

4-  The physical disappearance from our eyes for 12th Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) is agreed because he is in occultation but the guidance from unseen as per the verses of quran is continuously present. As mentioned / detailed in above post by verses of  Quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that the guidance functions by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through the prophets, quran and imams is intact:

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ

أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَىٰ هُدًى مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful. (2:2 - 5)

The ghayb unseen does not include 12th imam but all the prophets, imams,  ahl albayt, companions of the prophets  who have passed and are hidden from our eyes, the angels, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  all are in ghayb.

Are all of these with their functions  denied by  sunnis as they cannot be seen?

5- If you consider that the guidance from sources including Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams (including from 12th Imam) has been ceased,  ended or damaged / disturbed etc as we cannot see those  then please provide the textural evidence of your claim from the verse of quran and hadith of the prophet mentioning clearly that the : Guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and Imams (including 12th imams) has been ceased,  ended or damaged.

This is necessary to verify your claims for guidance about 12th imam for which there is no textural; presented yet evidence (as required above).

6- There is no verse of quran mentioning the end or discontinuation or damage of the guidance function quoted so far from your side. Thus it stands as a dominant proof the guidance of imams including 12th Imam is continued though in occultation,. You are spreading just false assumptions and mere conjectures without any evidence from the verses of quran for  12th imam guidance being non existence.  

The principle of discontinuation or damage of the guidance functions of imams is not proven by the quran which is the book of guidance & wisdom and there is no proof more than its verses. 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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18 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:
18 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 

1- As per history of Islam 11 earlier Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were killed and martyred by the oppressors of the  ummah and tyrant rulers. Thus Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept back his last sign keeping away from our eyes in occultation period. The same is true for the prophet Esa (عليه السلام) that is alive and away from our eyes

Again this is utter nonsense. They were killed because  at that banu abbas and corrupt leaders was in the authority. It is not the case now. Now the followers of the 12th one rule a entire country, they have soldiers to fight, military weapons and what not. If despite this, he wants to stay in ghaybah, then there is no need of infallible guide at all time to expound the religion and clarify the rulings, the imam has not benifitted you shias I  anything, not in fiqh not in hadith, not in taseer, nasikh wal mansookh no nothing. If there is no need of infallible guide at all times then the fundamemtal belief of shia is false. 

 

23 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Likewise the Imam Mahdi has been kept away from our eyes for this test and trial period of the ummah so that the believers and who do not believe in the right guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as defined in the hadiths  can be segregated

This is a contradiction. You believe that it is against Allah's lutf that he leave this religion without any infallible guide. If you say that ghaybah is a test then it is also against Allah's lutf, that he made it obligatory upon him to appoint a imam to explain the religion and then start testing the believers by making the hujjah go into occultation. 

27 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Even the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is in ghayb for 1400 years and he cannot be seen by our eyes and the guidance function has not stopped as it is mentioned in quran and sunnah. Do you deny the guidance function by the prophet?

 

28 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thus the angels cannot be seen as they are in ghayb yet they perform their assigned tasks. The property of not being seen does not affect their tasks completion. Do you deny the functions by angels?

The same aspect is true for leader /12th imam and he cannot be seen for more than 1200 years but guidance function has not been ceased as he is performing his duties like angels perform his duties and cannot be seen. This is complete in conformance to the concept defined in the verses of quran

Stop humiliating yourself in front of me. Your imam is doing his job in while in ghayb. He is expounding the religion and clarifying the details of the religion in ghayb. Nice joke. 

Your belief is that there must be an imam at all time to expound the religion, and clarify the rulings of quran and sunnah. The imam is not doing this. That means your concept of imamah is false. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The physical disappearance from our eyes for 12th Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) is agreed because he is in occultation but the guidance from unseen as per the verses of quran is continuously present. As mentioned / detailed in above post by verses of  Quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that the guidance functions by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through the prophets, quran and imams is intact:

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ

أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَىٰ هُدًى مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful. (2:2 - 5)

All these ayaat doesn't prove anything regarding your imam. There is no verse which says that there is a 12th imam who is guiding. 

 

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

If you consider that the guidance from sources including Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams (including from 12th Imam) has been ceased,  ended or damaged / disturbed etc as we cannot see those  then please provide the textural evidence of your claim from the verse of quran and hadith of the prophet mentioning clearly that the : Guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and Imams (including 12th imams) has been ceased,  ended or damaged

Lol. First prove from the direct verse of quran Or hadith of the prophet that the 12 th imam is guiding the shia while being in ghayb before asking your opponent to prove otherwise. 

 

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The principle of discontinuation or damage of the guidance functions of imams is not proven by the quran which is the book of guidance & wisdom and there is no proof more than its verses

Nah. The concept that the 12 th imam is guiding the shias itself is not proven from quran, sunnah Or even intellect. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

 

 

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3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Absolute nonsense

You have no logical reason for your comment. It is a premeditated answer. You asked a question for which you don’t have the capacity to receive an answer. That is not to say that this topic or conversation is not a good one, I appreciate it for having given me and deeper insight into my own beliefs. What I mean to say is thank you, there is hassana for me in this.

As for the answer to your question, you are fortunate because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only judges us in accordance to our understanding. That you can’t comprehend the answer is hassana for you. If you do comprehend that may Allah open your heart to the truth. 
 

Salam

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@Muslim2010

@sunni muslim believes in imamah and doesn't believe in at the same time.

The Quran is explicit in stating that everyone will be raised with an Imam and those who don't have one will be blind in the hereafter.

At the very least, we believe in an Imam who is in occultation.

@sunni muslim has no imam at all so my brother is guaranteeing being raised blind in the hereafter and perhaps blind spiritually blind in this life too.

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14 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

umar didn't appointed said bin zaid in the 6 men shura, despite him being one of the 10 promised paradise, just because he was the husband of umar's sister. Usman and ali did put their relatives into powers. Ali appointed abdullah bin abbas, ubaydullah bin abbas, qutham bin abbas and many more. 

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/19/4/

This is totally wrong because according to Sunnis & last words of Umar , he wanted to appoint Abu Ubaida Jarrah or Salam the liberated slave of Abu Huzaifa as his successor which due their death before his death so then he ordered that a council appoint his xuccessor which he appointed people in council in order to become sure that they will appoint anyone except Amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as next caliph  which also according to Sunni sources he has not wanted that anyone from his family would became his successor which Said bin Zaid has been too old also he didn't want to praticipate in politics which also ther is few reports he has been against appointing cursed Muawiah & rest of cursed Ummayads as governors of Shaam (Syria) by Umar & Abubakr.

You have reapeate abusive language multiple times against Amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & against great companions likewise Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) & Abdullah bin abbas)(ra), Ubaydullah bin abbas, Qutham bin abbas (رضي الله عنه) due to their support from Amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which Amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has appointed them as governors due to request of people from him because they have been most respected people from Family of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which everyone have wanted them due to their good charactristic & being wellknown by good reputation in muslim community although Ubaydullah bin abbas has betrayed to Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) which his betrayal as commander of army of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) has forced him to accept peace agreement with cursed Muawiah (la) , but on the other hannd Uthman has appointed his relatives from cursed Ummayids likewise cursed Muawyah & cursed Mrawan in Hakam into power against order of prophet Muhammad (pbu) about not appointing Tulaqa' in power  which it has against will of muslim community which at the end has been lead to killing of Uthman .

 

Quote

When Umar was on his death bed, he was asked that he should nominate his successor. Umar sighed and said, "Whom should I nominate my successor? If Abu Ubaida had been alive, I would have nominated him as my successor for about him the Holy Prophet had said that he was the trustee of the Muslim community. If Salam the liberated slave of Abu Huzaifa had been alive, I would have nominated him as my successor for about him the Holy Prophet had said that among the Muslims he loved Allah most."

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/19/4/

Quote

Some one said, "I propose the name of your son Abdullah for the office."

Thereupon Umar said:

"May God curse you for tempting me to nepotism by nominating my son when I am going to meet my Creator. The Caliphate is an affair affecting the entire Muslim community, and I would not like to make it an hereditary office in my family. I swear it by God that I never coveted the caliphate for myself. Therefore what I never coveted for myself I would not like to pass on to my family. If the caliphate is something good then by holding the office for the last ten years, I have had the blessing for my family.

 

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/19/4/

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The Bias of Council

Some say it was predictable that the council would elect Uthman. As Imam Ali (a) had anticipated, Sa'd would not disagree with his cousin Abd al-Rahman. On the other hand, Abd al-Rahman, who was Uthman's brother-in-law[8] would vote for him. Concerning these factors, even if both Talha and Zubayr were Imam Ali (a)'s advocates, it would be useless; since Abd al-Rahman was a supporter of Uthman.[9]

Sa'd stated he had the same vote with Abd al-Rahman, whatever he decides. Zubayr gave up nominating for the caliphate in favor of Imam Ali (a). Abd al-Rahman announced he was not seeking a caliphate. Talha, who was Abu Bakr's cousin and Imam Ali (a)'s opponent, gave up nominating in favor of Uthman. Therefore, the only candidates were Imam Ali (a) and Uthman,[10] meaning 'Abd al-Rahman's vote became crucial and notable.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Six-Member_Council

About Qutham ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه)

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Mu'awiya's Conspiracy

In 39/659 when Qutham was the ruler of Mecca, Mu'awiya sent Yazid b. Shajara al-Rahawi to Mecca in order to perform hajj rituals and receive pledges of allegiance for Mu'awiya. He ordered Yazid to oust 'Ali's (a) ruler of Mecca and manager of hajj (that is, 'Ubayd Allah b. 'Abbas or, on another account, Qutham b. 'Abbas). However, Imam 'Ali (a) learned about Mu'awiya's conspiracy and sent an army led by Ma'qil b. Qays to Hijaz. Qutham called people of Mecca to resist Yazid b. Shajara, but no one helped him. Thus, in order to protect Bayt al-Mal and his life, he decided to leave Mecca until Imam 'Ali (a)'s army arrived. But the well-known SahabiAbu Sa'id al-Khudri, advised him to stay in the city. With a unanimous agreement of people and seniors of Mecca, Shayba b. 'Uthman al-'Abdari was selected as the manager of hajj ceremonies. He finished the hajj rituals of 39/659 together with people. After the hajj rituals, Ma'qil b. Qays arrived near Mecca and chased Yazid b. Shajara. They arrested some people from Yazid's army and took them to Kufa.[14]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Qutham_b._al-Abbas_b._Abd_al-Muttalib

Ubaydullah bin abbas

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Political and Military Positions of 'Ubayd Allah

The Period of Imam 'Ali (a)

During the period of the Prophet (s), 'Ubayd Allah was not old enough to be assigned a political or military task. He is said to be a supporter of Imam 'Ali (a). 'Ali (a) appointed him as Amir al-Hajj (commander of hajj pilgrims) for three consecutive years from 36/657 to 38/659. In the third year, a military skirmish was about to take place between him and Yazid b. Shajara al-Rahawi who was appointed by Mu'awiya as Amir al-Hajj. However, they eventually made a compromise and agreed that Shayba b. 'Uthman undertake the position of Amir al-Hajj.[6]

 

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The Period of Imam al-Hasan (a)

After the martyrdom of Imam 'Ali (a), 'Ubayd Allah supported the caliphate of Imam al-Hasan (a). In that period, letters were exchanged between Imam al-Hasan (a) and Mu'awiya, asking each other to give up the caliphate. 

 

 

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. Imam al-Hasan (a) appointed 'Ubayd Allah as the commander of the army and told him: "this army consists of the best warriors, reciters of the Qur'an, and the companions of Amir al-Mu'minin (a)". He sent the army to combat Mu'awiya and asked him to stay there until the Imam (a) and the rest of the army joined them. However, 'Ubayd Allah joined Mu'awiya after being bribed.[9] Al-Baladhuri provided another account of 'Ubayd Allah joining Mu'awiya. According to him, 'Ubayd Allah joined Mu'awiya after finding out that al-Hasan b. 'Ali (a) was reluctant to stay a caliph.[10] However, remarks by Qays b. Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was appointed as the commander of the 12000-army after 'Ubayd Allah's escape imply that 'Ubayd Allah was not a brave and reliable commander. In these remarks, Qays said that 'Ubayd Allah, his father, 'Abbas, and his brother, 'Abd Allah b. 'Abbas, were not loyal to the Prophet (s) and Imam 'Ali (a).[11]

Some sources have not pointed, however, to 'Ubayd Allah's commandership of Imam al-Hasan's (a) army, only citing Qays b. Sa'd as the commander. According to these sources, Imam al-Hasan (a) removed Qays from the rule of Azerbaijan and appointed him as the commander of the army, and appointed 'Ubayd Allah as the ruler of Azerbaijan.[12] However, according to al-Tabari's account, 'Ali (a) had appointed Qays as the commander of a 40,000-army and sent him to Azerbaijan. However, Qays postponed the mission until 'Ali (a) was martyred. When Imam al-Hasan (a) became the caliph, he was reluctant to go to war and he knew that Qays was willing to combat the army of Syria. Thus, he removed Qays from the commandership of his army and replaced him with 'Ubayd Allah b. 'Abbas. Since 'Ubayd Allah was aware of Imam al-Hasan's (a) view, he joined the army of Mu'awiya.[13] This account is inconsistent with other accounts according to which Imam al-Hasan (a) commissioned 'Ubayd Allah to combat the army of Mu'awiya and then appointed Qays as his successor and conditioned every action on consultation with Qays.[14]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ubayd_Allah_b._al-Abbas_b._Abd_al-Muttalib

Abdullah bin abbas (رضي الله عنه)

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ʿAbd Allāh b. al-ʿAbbās (Arabic: عبد اللّه بن العباس) (b. 3 BH/619-20 - d. 68/687-8), commonly known as Ibn ʿAbbās, was the cousin of the Prophet (s) and Imam 'Ali (a) and one of the companions of the Prophet (s)Imam Ali (a)Imam al-Hasan (a), and Imam al-Husayn (a).

Although Ibn 'Abbas believed that Imam 'Ali (a) was the rightful caliph after the Prophet (s), he cooperated with the Three Caliphs. He was in Imam 'Ali's army during the Battles of JamalSiffin, and Nahrawan. He was appointed as the governor of Basra by Imam 'Ali (a). After Imam 'Ali's (a) martyrdom, he supported Imam al-Hasan (a). In Imam al-Hasan's (a) funeral, he stopped Banu Hashim and Banu Umayya from fighting.

He warned Imam al-Husayn (a) about traveling to Karbala and did not accompany him on that trip.

Many hadiths have been narrated from him in both Shi'a and Sunni sources. An exegesis of Qur'an, attributed to him, has been published many times. He is the ancestor of the Abbasid Caliphs.

 

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During Imam Ali's Reign

Ibn Abbas participated in the Battles of JamalSiffin, and Nahrawan.[9] He was one of the commanders in Imam Ali (a)'s army.[10] In the event of Hakamiyya, Imam (a) suggested him as the hakam (his approved arbiter) but Khawarij rejected him.

Most of his political activities refers to the period of Imam Ali (a)'s Caliphate. He was appointed as the governor of Basra, Iraq,[11] and Imam Ali (a) wrote letters to him (two of which have been mentioned in Nahj al-balagha: the letters number 18 and 66).[12]

According to some historical accounts, in the last days of Imam Ali (a)'s Caliphate, he was accused of stealing from treasury (bayt al-mal) so he left Basra and went to Mecca.[13] However, many scholars believed that these reports are dubious.[14]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abd_Allah_b._al-Abbas

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History of The Caliphs

Rasul Ja'fariyan

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Imam ‘Ali’s Imamate

Imam ‘Ali alongside the Prophet

In the first version of the book, we proportionately and briefly discussed about Imam 'Ali (a)'s role in the changes of Prophet's significant time. Imam's position and his reliability to the Messenger (S) is briefly discussed. Imam 'Ali (a) had the honor to be brought up in the house of Messenger (S).1

In this regard, a great deal of attractive narrations collected by Ibn Abi al-Hadid exist. Among them, in a narration by Zayd Ibn 'Ali Ibn Husayn, he said that in that time the Messenger made meat and date soft by putting it in his mouth for being easily eaten and then it was put in Imam 'Ali's mouth.2 Imam 'Ali (a) was the first one who believed in the Messenger (S) due to this kinship.

He said, “No one but the Messenger took me the lead in prayer.”3

 

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He said, “No one but the Messenger took me the lead in prayer.”3

Nahj al-Balaghah, sermon 131

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O My God! I am the first who leaned (towards Thee) and who heard and responded (to the call of Islam). No one preceded me in prayer (salat) except the Prophet.

اللَّهُمْ إِنّي أَوَّلُ مَنْ أَنابَ، وَسَمِعَ وَأَجَابَ، لَمْ يَسْبِقْنِي إِلاَّ رَسُولُ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) بِالصَّلاَةِ.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/history-caliphs-rasul-jafariyan/imam-alis-imamate

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-131-o-people-differing-minds-and-divided-hearts

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15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

in the 6 men shura,

 

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One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

About Umar 

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It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

فَيَا عَجَباً!! بَيْنَا هُوَ يَسْتَقِيلُها في حَيَاتِهِ إِذْ عَقَدَهَا لاخَرَ بَعْدَ وَفَاتِهِ ـ لَشَدَّ مَا تَشَطَّرَا ضَرْعَيْهَا ! ـ فَصَيَّرَهَا في حَوْزَة خَشْنَاءَ، يَغْلُظُ كَلْمُهَا، وَيَخْشُنُ مَسُّهَا، وَيَكْثُرُ العِثَارُ فِيهَا وَالاْعْتَذَارُ مِنْهَا، فَصَاحِبُهَا كَرَاكِبِ الصَّعْبَةِ، إِنْ أَشْنَقَ لَهَا خَرَمَ، وَإِنْ أَسْلَسَ لَهَا تَقَحَّمَ، فَمُنِيَ النَّاسُ ـ لَعَمْرُ اللهِ ـ بِخَبْط وَشِمَاس، وَتَلَوُّن وَاعْتِرَاض.

 

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Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

فَصَبَرْتُ عَلَى طُولِ الْمُدَّةِ، وَشِدَّةِ الْمحْنَةِ، حَتَّى إِذا مَضَى لِسَبِيلِهِ جَعَلَهَا في جَمَاعَة زَعَمَ أَنَّي أَحَدُهُمْ. فَيَاللهِ وَلِلشُّورَى! مَتَى اعْتَرَضَ الرَّيْبُ فِيَّ مَعَ الاْوَّلِ مِنْهُمْ، حَتَّى صِرْتُ أُقْرَنُ إِلَى هذِهِ النَّظَائِرِ! لكِنِّي أَسفَفْتُ إِذْ أَسَفُّوا، وَطِرْتُ إِذْ طَارُوا، فَصَغَا رَجُلُ مِنْهُمْ لِضِغْنِه، وَمَالَ الاْخَرُ لِصِهْرهِ، مَعَ هَن وَهَن. إِلَى أَنْ قَامَ ثَالِثُ القَوْمِ، نَافِجَاً حِضْنَيْهِ بَيْنَ نَثِيلهِ وَمُعْتَلَفِهِ، وَقَامَ مَعَهُ بَنُو أَبِيهِ يَخْضَمُونَ مَالَ اللهِ خَضْمَ الاْبِل نِبْتَةَ الرَّبِيعِ، إِلَى أَنِ انْتَكَثَ عَلَيْهِ فَتْلُهُ، وَأَجْهَزَ عَلَيْهِ عَمَلُهُ، وَكَبَتْ بِهِ بِطْنَتُهُ.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

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Allegiance paid to ‘Ali

مبايعة علي (عليه السلام(

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At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like a herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur’an, 28:83)

فَمَا رَاعَنِي إلاَّ وَالنَّاسُ إليَّ كَعُرْفِ الضَّبُعِ، يَنْثَالُونَ عَلَيَّ مِنْ كُلِّ جَانِب، حَتَّى لَقَدْ وُطِىءَ الحَسَنَانِ، وَشُقَّ عِطْفَايَ، مُجْتَمِعِينَ حَوْلي كَرَبِيضَةِ الغَنَمِ. فَلَمَّا نَهَضْتُ بِالاْمرِ نَكَثَتْ طَائِفَةٌ، وَمَرَقَتْ أُخْرَى، وَفَسَقَ [وقسط] آخَرُونَ كَأَنَّهُمْ لَمْ يَسْمَعُوا اللهَ سُبْحَانَهُ يَقُولُ: (تِلْكَ الدَّارُ الاخِرَةُ نَجْعَلُهَا للَّذِينَ لاَ يُريدُونَ عُلُوّاً في الاَرْضِ وَلاَ فَسَاداً وَالعَاقِبَةُ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ(،

Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat.

بَلَى! وَاللهِ لَقَدْ سَمِعُوهَا وَوَعَوْهَا، وَلكِنَّهُمْ حَلِيَتَ الدُّنْيَا في أَعْيُنِهمْ، وَرَاقَهُمْ زِبْرِجُهَا! أَمَا وَالَّذِي فَلَقَ الْحَبَّةَ، وَبَرَأَ النَّسَمَةَ، لَوْلاَ حُضُورُ الْحَاضِرِ، وَقِيَامُ الْحُجَّةِ بِوُجُودِ النَّاصِرِ، وَمَا أَخَذَ اللهُ عَلَى العُلَمَاءِ أَلاَّ يُقَارُّوا عَلَى كِظَّةِ ظَالِم، وَلا سَغَبِ مَظْلُوم، لاَلقَيْتُ حَبْلَهَا عَلَى غَارِبِهَا، وَلَسَقَيْتُ آخِرَهَا بِكَأْسِ أَوَّلِها، وَلاَلفَيْتُمْ دُنْيَاكُمْ هذِهِ أَزْهَدَ عِنْدِي مِنْ عَفْطَةِ عَنْز!

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

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15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Usman and ali did put their relatives into powers.

 

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O Usman! Nothing stops me from you, except your bigotry and love for your people and family (Umayyads)

 

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Ibn Qutaybah ابن قتیبه  also writes about the event of Shura in his "Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa"الامامة و السیاسة»  quoting Omar Ibn Khattab: "O Saad! I swear to God, nothing will stop me from making you my successor, except your harshness. In addition, you are a man of war [and not a man of caliphate]. And O Abdul Rahman! There is nothing to prevent you [succession], except that you are [in arrogance] the pharaoh of this nation. And O Zubair! Nothing prevents you, except that you are a believer when you are happy and a disbeliever when you are angry. And there is nothing to prevent Talha, except his self-righteousness and arrogance, and the fact that if he becomes ruler, he will put his seal on his wife's finger. And O Usman! Nothing stops me from you, except your bigotry and love for your people and family (Umayyads). And O Ali! Nothing will stop me from you, except your temptation to caliphate; But if the government is entrusted to you, you are the most worthy person of the people to clearly establish the truth and the straight path.[7]

 الإمامة والسیاسة: ج ۱ ص ۴۳

Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa : v1 p43

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Umar's prediction of Uthman's caliphate
Ibn Sa'd, in Tabaqat, quoted Sa'id ibn al-As (Umayyad) (al-Umawī) as saying: Saeed bin Aas asked Umar to increase the area of his house to make it bigger. The caliph promises him that he will fulfill his wish after praying the next morning. Umar kept his promise and went with Saeed in the morning and... [Saeed himself says:] Khalifa drew a line with his feet and increased the size of my house. But I said: O Commander of the Faithful, give me more, because my Ahl al-Bayt, both small and large, has increased. Umar said: This is enough for you for now and keep this secret that after me someone will succeed to the caliphate who will respect your kinship and fulfill your needs!

Saeed says: When Umar's caliphate period came to an end and Uthman obtained the position of caliphate from Umar's council, he won my pleasure from the very beginning and fulfilled my request competently.[8]

 طبقات ابن سعد،۵: ۲۰- ۲۲، چاپ اروپا

Tabaqat al-Kubra of Ibn Sa'd , 5:20-22  (Vol 5 . p20-22) printed in Europe

 

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Umar's opinion about the members of the Caliphate Council

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Ya'qubi writes: "It was narrated from Ibn Abbas who said: It was late at night when Omar Ibn Khattab knocked on the door of my house and said: Come out with us so that we can guard the area around Medina." So, He came which the whip was on his neck and bare feet until he reached the Ghargad cemetery. He lay down on his back and hit the soles of his feet with his hand and sighed heavily. I said to him: O Commander of the Faithful! What made you do this? He said: God's order, O Ibn Abbas! I said: If you want, I will tell you about your inner secret. He said: O skilled speaker! Start that when you say, you say good. I said: You remembered the caliphate and to whom you want to move it. He said: You are right.

 

 

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I said to him: Why are you oblivious to Abd al-Rahman bin Auf? He said: He is a miser. This work is worthy of someone who is an extravagant giver and tireless withholder. I said: What about Sa'ad bin Abi Waqqas? He said: He is a weak believer . I said: What about Talha bin Obaidullah? He said: He is a man who seeks greatness and praise. He gives away his property in order to get another property. He is boastful and arrogant. I said: Zubair bin Awam - who is the knight of Islam - what? He said: One day he is a human and one day he is a devil. He is very rich and lives for a pint, from dawn to noon, until he misses his prayer.

 

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I said: What about Uthman bin Affan? He said: If he becomes the ruler, he will put the son of Abi Mu'it and the Umayyads on the shoulders of the people and give them God's property, and I swear to God, if he becomes the ruler, he will do this, and if he does, the Arabs will attack him. until they kill him in his house! and became silent

 Muhammad al-Yaqoubi Tarikh al-Yaqubi 

 

 تاریخ الیعقوبی: ج ۲ ص ۱۵۸ ؛ تاریخ المدینة: ج ۳ ص ۸۸۲ والفتوح: ج ۲ ص ۳۲۵ والاستیعاب: ج ۳ ص ۲۱۵

Tarikh al-Yaqubi v2 p 158 | Tarikh al-Madinah; v 3 p 882 & Futuh [Futuh al-Buldan of the Baladhuri]:  v2 p 325 & Al-Isti'ab [fi Ma'rifah al-AsHab] : v3 p 215

 

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Umar's opinion about Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Umar :I swear to God, Ali, your cousin, is the most deserving of people for the caliphate; But the Quraysh will not tolerate him, and if he becomes their ruler, he will take them by absolute right so that they will not find any escape from him, and if he does so, they will break their oath and fight with him." [6]

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Then he said: O Ibn Abbas! Skip [these words]. Do you see a place for your lord [Ali]? I said: Why should he be far from the caliphate with all his virtue, experience, kinship and knowledge? He said: By God, he is as you said, and if he takes over the government of the Muslims, he will lead them and follow the clear path, except that he has some characteristics: joking in the assembly, self-determination, and reprimanding of People although of his little age. I said: O Commander of the Faithful! Why didn't you consider him young in the battle of Khandaq, when he stepped forward to fight against Amr bin Abd-Wud, [Abd-Wudi], before whom the brave men were nailed and the elders retreated, and also in the battle of Badr, that Sometimes he would cut his opponents in half, and why did you not overtake him in converting to Islam, when the Quraysh had surrounded you!? Umar said: Ibn Abbas, that's enough! Do you want to do to me what your father and Ali did to Abu Bakr on the day of his arrival?! I didn't want to make him angry. Therefore, I became silent. He said: O Ibn Abbas! I swear to God, Ali, your cousin, is the most deserving of people for the caliphate; But the Quraysh will not tolerate him, and if he becomes their ruler, he will take them by absolute right so that they will not find any escape from him, and if he does so, they will break their oath and fight with him." [6]

 تاریخ الیعقوبی: ج ۲ ص ۱۵۸ ؛ تاریخ المدینة: ج ۳ ص ۸۸۲ والفتوح: ج ۲ ص ۳۲۵ والاستیعاب: ج ۳ ص ۲۱۵

Tarikh al-Yaqubi v2 p 158 | Tarikh al-Madinah; v 3 p 882 & Futuh [Futuh al-Buldan of the Baladhuri]:  v2 p 325 & Al-Isti'ab [fi Ma'rifah al-AsHab] : v3 p 215

https://wiki.ahlolbait.com/شورای_شش_نفره_خلافت

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Umar's opinion about the caliphate of Bani Hashem


One day Ibn Abbas went to Omar. Omar said to him: "O Ibn Abbas; Do you know what prevented the caliphate from reaching you after the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))? Ibn Abbas says: I didn't like to answer him, I said to him: If I don't know, will the caliph inform me? 

Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) you said: Quraysh did not like prophethood and caliphate to be in the same family, Allah the Almighty says: "«ذَلِکَ بَاَنَّهُم کَرِهُوا مَا اَنزَلَ اللهُ فَاَحبَطَ اَعمَالَهُم»: They did not like what God revealed, and all of their actions  disappeared.  That is because they disliked what Allah revealed, so He rendered worthless their deeds. (9)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/47:9

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People did not like prophethood and caliphate to gather in your family, so that you can boast about it to others, and Quraysh chose the caliphate for himself, and he thought correctly and succeeded. I said, O Commander of the Faithful (that is, Umar), if you allow me to speak and keep your anger away from me, should I speak about this? Umar said: Tell me! I said: You say that the Quraish chose a caliph for themselves and thought correctly and succeeded. If the Quraish's choice was in accordance with the Lord's choice, the Quraish did a good deed and it was not debatable and would not have been envied (but unfortunately, the Quraish's choice It was not in harmony with God's choice) and that you said: Quraysh did not like prophethood and caliphate to be in the same family, God the Almighty says: "«ذَلِکَ بَاَنَّهُم کَرِهُوا مَا اَنزَلَ اللهُ فَاَحبَطَ اَعمَالَهُم»: They did not like what God revealed, and all of their actions  disappeared.  That is because they disliked what Allah revealed, so He rendered worthless their deeds. (9)

 

 

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Umar continued and said: I have heard that you are saying: Caliphate was taken away from us due to envy and oppression. Ibn Abbas said: But the fact that it was taken from us out of oppression, this issue is clear to everyone, and as for what you said out of envy, Adam (peace be upon him)our ancestor  has been  jealoused , and we are also his children who We have been   jealoused [by others]. Umar said: Hihat, hihat, I swear to God, envy will never disappear from the hearts of you Bani Hashim. Ibn Abbas said: O Commander of the Faithful, slow down! The hearts that God has cleansed from pollution are described as envy, because the heart of the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is also one of the hearts of Bani Hashim. Umar said: Get away from me, O Ibn Abbas! Ibn Abbas said: I will do this. When I wanted to get up, he was ashamed of me, and said: O Ibn Abbas, sit in your place. I swear to God, I respect your rights, and I love what makes you happy." [4]

 تاریخ این اثیرج۲ص۶۳-۶۵دار صادر؛ تاریخ طبری ج ۲ ص ۵۷۷

Tarikh Ibn Athir v2 p 63-65 | Tarikh (history) of Tabari v2 p 577

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Is Ibn Qutaybah The Author of Al-Imamah Wa Al-Siyasah?

Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Husayni al-Qazwini

Reviewing the Objection

Quote

When Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) found a group of people [that had gathered] near ʿAli (may Allah bless his face) who had fallen back on pledging allegiance to him [i.e. Abu Bakr], he sent ʿUmar to them. He came and called them out while they were in the house of ʿAli but they refused to come out. ʿUmar then called for wood [to be brought] and said: “by the One who [holds] ʿUmar’s soul in His Hands, if you do not come out I will burn this house along with whoever is in it”. And it was said to him: “Oh Abu Hafs (ʿUmar), even if Fatimah is in the house?!” And he (ʿUmar) said: “Even if!”

So they came out and pledged allegiance except for ʿAli. ʿAli then declared by saying: “I vowed that I would not leave or put on my cloak over my shoulder [in order to leave the house] until I [finished] compiling the Qur’an”

Then Fatimah (may Allah be pleased with her) [went and] stood by the door of the house and said: “there is no one among people whose presence to me is worse than your [ʿUmar] presence. You left the funeral of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) while you [took] the matter [of the khilafah] and cut it [into pieces] among yourselves while you did not seek to consult us nor did you return us our right.”

See: al-Dinawari, Abu Muhammad ʿAbd Allah b. Muslim b. Qutaybah (d. 276/889). al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah, ed. Khalil al-Mansur (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-ʿIlmiyah, 1418/1997), I: 16; Shiri edition, I: 30; Zayni edition, I: 19.

قال وإن أبا بكر رضي الله عنه تفقد قوما تخلفوا عن بيعته عند علي كرم الله وجهه فبعث إليهم عمر فجاء فناداهم وهم في دار علي فأبوا أن يخرجوا فدعا بالحطب وقال والذي نفس عمر بيده لتخرجن أو لأحرقنها على من فيها فقيل له يا أبا حفص إن فيها فاطمة فقال وإن فخرجوا فبايعوا إلا عليا فإنه زعم أنه قال حلفت أن لا أخرج ولا أضع ثوبي على عاتقي حتى أجمع القرآن فوقفت فاطمة رضي الله عنها على بابها فقالت لا عهد لي بقوم حضروا أسوأ محضر منكم تركتم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم جنازة بين أيدينا وقطعتم أمركم بينكم لم تستأمرونا ولم تزدوا لنا حقا.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ibn-qutaybah-author-al-imamah-wa-al-siyasah-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al-qazwini

 

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16 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Usman and ali did put their relatives into powers.

Amir al-Mu'minin's opinion about the Caliphate Council

Quote


Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said to those from Bani Hashim who were with him: "If between you people  are followed from  your tribe(Quraysh) , the emirate will never reach you." Abbas saw him. [Ali,(as)] said to him: "[Caliphate] has been taken from us!" He said: How do you know? He said: Uthman has been placed next to me and [Umar] said: Be with the majority and if two people are satisfied with one person and the other two are satisfied with another person, then be with the group in which Abd al-Rahman bin Auf is among them. Sa'ad does not oppose his cousin Abdur Rahman, and Abdur Rahman has a causal relationship with Osman. [They] do not oppose each other. So, either Abd al-Rahman hands over the caliphate to Uthman, or Uthman hands it over to Abd al-Rahman. And even if two other people are with me, it is of no use to me".[13]

 تاریخ الطبری: ج ۴ ص ۲۲۹، الکامل فی التاریخ: ج ۲ ص ۲۲۱، تاریخ المدینة: ج ۳ ص ۹۲۵، العقد الفرید: ج ۳ ص ۲۸۵

Tarikh (history of) Tabari : v 4 p 229 , Al Kamel fi Tarikh ( The Complete History (Arabic: الكامل في التاريخ, al-Kāmil fit-Tārīkh): v 2 p 221 ,

Tarikh al-Madinah :v3 p 925 ,  al-ʿIqd al-Farīd (The Unique Necklace, Arabic: العقد الفريد) : v3 p 285

https://wiki.ahlolbait.com/شورای_شش_نفره_خلافت

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Question: Why did Imam Ali (عليه السلام) participate in the council of six people?
Short answer:

The method of forming and appointing the members of the six-member council was planned in such a way that the caliphate would not reach Ali ((عليه السلام).), but because Imam ((عليه السلام).) considered himself worthy of the caliphate, he felt it necessary to participate in that meeting and with reasoning, He proved his rightness; In addition, Ali ((عليه السلام).) did not want to be accused of creating division and opposition, or not to say that if his majesty had participated in that assembly, they would have given him his right.
 

Quote

Detailed answer:
The way of forming the council of six people was as it was predicted, the caliphate would not reach Ali (as); Because Talha was from the "Tayim" tribe and Ayesha's cousin. That is, from the same tribe that Abu Bakr belonged to, and they had no desire for Ali (عليه السلام).
Saad bin Abi Waqqas, his mother was from the Umayyad tribe, and his uncles and relatives were killed by Ali (عليه السلام) in the wars of Islam against disbelief and polytheism, and for this reason, he even during the caliphate of Ali (عليه السلام) did not pledge allegiance to him which  and Umar bin Saad, the great criminal of Karbala and Ashura incident, is his son. Therefore, his grudge against Ali (عليه السلام) was for sure and for this reason, he was not inclined towards Ali (عليه السلام). Another person is Abd al-Rahman bin Auf, who was also the son-in-law of Uthman; Because he has been Umm Kulthum's the Osman's siste husband .
As a result, only Zubair, who was interested in Ali (عليه السلام), took the side of him and the rest of the votes were cast in favor of Uthman.
Ali (عليه السلام) has expressed the same story in a concise manner in the sermon of Shagshaqiyyah (the third sermon of Nahj al-Balagha). said:
"فَصَغا رَجُلٌ مِنْهُمْ لِضِغْنِهِ وَ مالَ الاْخَرُ لِصِهْرِهِ، مَعَ هَن وَ هَن"; (Finally, one of them (members of the council) turned away from me because of his grudge, and the other prioritized kinship over the truth and became interested in another (Osman) because of his son-in-law, in addition to other reasons that are not pleasant to mention). 1)
In addition to that, Umar clearly listed disadvantages for Talha, Saad bin Abi Waqqas, and Abd al-Rahman bin Auf, which in fact makes them unfit for the caliphate.
He said about Talha: The Messenger of God was displeased with you because of what you had said in the story of the veil (Hijab) verse. (2)
He said to Saad bin Abi Waqqas: You are a man of war who does not qualify for caliphate and managing the affairs of the people. (3)
He also said to Abd al-Rahman bin Auf: You are a weak man and a weak man like you is not worthy of this position. (4)
With these words, he apparently gave these people the right to vote, to choose one from Ali (عليه السلام) and Uthman; But with a calculated arrangement, he tipped the scales in favor of Osman.
Perhaps it was on this basis that the political experts predicted in advance that the government would not reach Ali (عليه السلام) and forbade him from participating in the council meeting.
According to Tabari's narration, Ibn Abbas said to Ali (as): Do not enter this council! Amir Mominan (عليه السلام) replied:

I don't want they see any opposition from my side.


Ibn Abbas said: «إِذاً تَرى ما تَکْرَهُ» (In this case, you will see what is not pleasing to you). (5)
Amir Mu'minan Ali (عليه السلام) considered himself worthy of caliphate and imamate, so he felt it necessary to participate in that meeting and he proved his rightness by reasoning and did the same. But once again that mysterious plan worked and the people lost the leadership of Ali (عليه السلام).
In addition to that, Ali (عليه السلام) did not want to be accused of creating division and opposition, and lest they say that if his majesty had participated in that assembly, they would have given him his right. He saw benefit particpating in that council. (6)

 

 

Quote

Tarikh (history of) Tabari : v 3 p 293 | Tarikh Ibn Athir | (Kamil)  Al Kamel fi Tarikh ( The Complete History ) v3 p 68

Ibn Abi l-Hadid Sharh Nahj al-balagha (Commentary on Nahj al-balagha) , v1 , p 184-186

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=42&lid=0&catid=null&mid=323496

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Posted (edited)

I present following facts to assess & conclude the discussion made  in this thread extended to 5 pages:

1.      Verses of Quran

Sr No.

Posted by Sunnis

  Posted by                   Shia          (without repetition)

No. of verses of quran

0

27

Thus the understanding of the verses of quran by Shia presented in the thread dominantly proves that the principle of Shia imams  mentioned in quran.

2.      Hadith of prophets and imams

Sr No.

Posted by Sunnis

Posted by Shia

(without repetition)

No. of hadith

3

25

Similarly through the hadith of the prophet, the understating of Shia has been confidently presented in the thread to dominantly prove the concept of Shia Imams from progeny of the prophet inline with the hadith thaqlyn.

3.      Claims without evidence

Sr No.

By Sunnis

By Shia

No. of claims without Evidences of verses of Quran and hadith

Endless claims

0

 The endless claims of sunni have been made  that are not justified by the verses of quran and hadith in the thread as No evidence was presented by them to substantiate their claims.

 Shia have well proven their concepts of Imams with the verses of quran and requisite hadith.         (s. no. 1 & 2)

Conclusion

Shia  have presented their views inline with verses of quran and hadith and these are well established and well proven principles regarding the Shia twelve Imams.

Sunnis views presented are just base less conjectures and false claims without any evidence and these are against the defined verses of quran and  hadith.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

17:71) Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

وَمَن كَانَ فِي هَذِهِ أَعْمَى فَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ أَعْمَى وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلاً

17:72) And whoever is blind here (in this world), shall also be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the Way.

اللھم صلی علی محمد و آل محمد و عجل فرجھم

wasalam

@Cool @Ashvazdanghe @ShiaMan14 

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

I present following facts to assess & conclude the discussion made  in this thread extended to 5 pages:

1.      Verses of Quran

Sr No.

Posted by Sunnis

  Posted by                   Shia          (without repetition)

No. of verses of quran

0

27

Thus the understanding of the verses of quran by Shia presented in the thread dominantly proves that the principle of Shia imams  mentioned in quran.

2.      Hadith of prophets and imams

Sr No.

Posted by Sunnis

Posted by Shia

(without repetition)

No. of hadith

3

25

Similarly through the hadith of the prophet, the understating of Shia has been confidently presented in the thread to dominantly prove the concept of Shia Imams from progeny of the prophet inline with the hadith thaqlyn.

3.      Claims without evidence

Sr No.

By Sunnis

By Shia

No. of claims without Evidences of verses of Quran and hadith

Endless claims

0

 The endless claims of sunni have been made  that are not justified by the verses of quran and hadith in the thread as No evidence was presented by them to substantiate their claims.

 Shia have well proven their concepts of Imams with the verses of quran and requisite hadith.         (s. no. 1 & 2)

Conclusion

Shia  have presented their views inline with verses of quran and hadith and these are well established and well proven principles regarding the Shia twelve Imams.

Sunnis views presented are just base less conjectures and false claims without any evidence and these are against the defined verses of quran and  hadith.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

17:71) Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

وَمَن كَانَ فِي هَذِهِ أَعْمَى فَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ أَعْمَى وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلاً

17:72) And whoever is blind here (in this world), shall also be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the Way.

اللھم صلی علی محمد و آل محمد و عجل فرجھم

wasalam

@Cool @Ashvazdanghe @ShiaMan14 

Imamah is still false. Cry as much as you want

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1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Imamah is still false. Cry as much as you want

@sunni muslim said the above and the below in the same thread

On 8/12/2022 at 11:21 AM, sunni muslim said:

  And this task - that is, the task of clarifying and following up on the application - may be carried out by the Prophet or Messenger in addition to his informative character, as is the case with Ibrahim (peace be upon him), who was granted the Imamate after granting him prophecy and message, and as is the case with our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him and his family). ) who was a messenger and imam at the same time, because in addition to the task of reporting - the task of clarification and follow-up on the application.

   With this point of view, the time of the Imamate may extend beyond the life of the Prophet and the Messenger, because there is a need to clarify the rest of the rulings in the Sharia, and to follow up on their application, which could not be explained and applied in the era of the Messenger.)

https://alrasd.net/arabic/islamicheritagee/628

So basically, there is a need of an imam at all time, because there is a need to clarify the rest of rulings in the sharia, and to follow up on their application, which couldn't be explained or applied in the era of the messenge. Why doesn't the 12th imam clarify rest of rulings and follow up on their application, explain the Quran and sunnah in an infallible way so that we could benifit from him in the religion. Why is he in major occultation for 1200 years. 

I mean take a stand brother.

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On 8/23/2022 at 10:06 PM, sunni muslim said:

Imamah is still false. Cry as much as you want

The Acknowledgement That Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) Was Worthy for the Position of the Imamate Accord-ing to the Scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah

Question: Are there any scholars from amongst the Ahl al-Sunnah who have specifically considered Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) as being worthy of the Imamate?

1- Abū Zakarīyā Muḥyī al-Dīn ibn Sharaf Nūrī (d. 676 Hijrī Qamarī): The scholars have consensus on his Imamate, his dignity, and his high rank over others. ‘Umar ibn Abī al-Muqadam has said: Whenever I would look at Ja‘far ibn Muḥammad, I would know that he is from the progeny of the prophets.[1]

[1] Tahdhīb al-AsmāÞ wa al-Lughāt, vol. 1, p. 155: «واتفقوا على امامته وجلالته وسیادته. قال عمر بن ابى المقدام: کنت اذا نظرت إلى جعفر بن محمّد علمت انّه من سلالة النبیین»

Quote
Detailed answer:

Some of the scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah have out rightly mentioned their belief in the Imamate of Imam Ṣādiq (‘a). They include the following individuals:

1- Abū Zakarīyā Muḥyī al-Dīn ibn Sharaf Nūrī (d. 676 Hijrī Qamarī): The scholars have consensus on his Imamate, his dignity, and his high rank over others. ‘Umar ibn Abī al-Muqadam has said: Whenever I would look at Ja‘far ibn Muḥammad, I would know that he is from the progeny of the prophets.[1]

2- Shams al-Dīn Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad ibn ‘Uthmān Dhahabī (d. 748): Ja‘far Ṣādiq was a man of high rank from the leaders (Imams) of knowledge. He was more worthy for the caliphate than Abū Ja‘far Manṣūr.[2] In another place, he has said: Ja‘far possessed many excellent virtues, and he was well suited for the caliphate due to his greatness, his virtues, his knowledge, and his nobility.[3]

3- Ṣalāḥ al-Dīn Ṣafadī (d. 724): Ja‘far ibn Muḥammad ibn ‘Alī ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib (may God be pleased with him) - he was famously known as Ṣādiq. He was an Imam, a guide towards guidance, and from the city of Medina… He possessed many excellent virtues and he was well suited for the caliphate due to his knowledge, his greatness, and his nobility.[4]

4- Muḥadith Muḥammad Khawājah Pārsāī Bukhārī (d. 822): Abū ‘Abdillah, Ja‘far Ṣādiq (may God be pleased with him) is from the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt[5]

5- Mullā ‘Alī Qārī (d. 1014): Ja‘far ibn Muḥammad… there is a consensus on his Imamate, his honor, and his greatness over others.[6]

6- Aḥmad ibn Shihāb al-Dīn Khafājī (d. 1069): Ja‘far Ṣādiq Abū ‘Abdillah…the scholars have a consensus on his Imamate, his honor, and his greatness over others…[7]

7- Ṣāliḥ ibn Muḥammad Ḥijāzī: He has written the following in an article on Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) – He was a sign from the signs of Islam and a master from the masters of the Muslims… He was an Imam of the Muslims, who in spite of the differences found within the Muslims and all the different groups, was agreed upon as an Imam and his restraint in the face of desires and his trustworthiness were all well known. They have praised him and they love him due to his virtue, his asceticism, and his nearness in lineage to the Prophet of God (ṣ)… He was the head of teaching and spreading knowledge and a great number of scholars were taught by him…[8][9]

Footnote: [1] Tahdhīb al-AsmāÞ wa al-Lughāt, vol. 1, p. 155: «واتفقوا على امامته وجلالته وسیادته. قال عمر بن ابى المقدام: کنت اذا نظرت إلى جعفر بن محمّد علمت انّه من سلالة النبیین»

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=23&lid=1&catid=29382&mid=319049

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Traditions Narrated from Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) in the Books of the Ahl al-Sunnah

By looking at the books of tradition which the Ahl al-Sunnah have compiled, we can see numerous traditions narrated from Imam Ṣādiq (‘a). We will list a few of these below as examples:

4- He is also narrated to have said: Anger is the key to every wickedness.[6]

[6] Rabī al-Abrār, p. 173: «الغضب مفتاح کلّ شرّ»

10- He is narrated to have said: Whenever a pious believer becomes angry, his anger does not take him past the boundaries of truth, and whenever he becomes content, his contentment does not take him towards what is false.[12]

[10] IsÝāf al-Rāghibīn, p. 252: [12] Ibid: «المؤمن اذا غضب لم یخرج عن حقّ، و اذا رضى لم یدخله رضاه فی باطل»

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1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 

Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 

Well I really don't know how much is your capacity to comprehend that your argument itself have really no intellectual reason to be true. We have already shown this but you keep ignoring this very basic understanding that even if Imam is needed does not mean he must be in active to benefit us.

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 8/27/2022 at 7:41 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

The Acknowledgement That Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) Was Worthy for the Position of the Imamate Accord-ing to the Scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah

Question: Are there any scholars from amongst the Ahl al-Sunnah who have specifically considered Imam Ṣādiq (‘a) as being worthy of the Imamate?

1- Abū Zakarīyā Muḥyī al-Dīn ibn Sharaf Nūrī (d. 676 Hijrī Qamarī): The scholars have consensus on his Imamate, his dignity, and his high rank over others. ‘Umar ibn Abī al-Muqadam has said: Whenever I would look at Ja‘far ibn Muḥammad, I would know that he is from the progeny of the prophets.[1]

[1] Tahdhīb al-AsmāÞ wa al-Lughāt, vol. 1, p. 155: «واتفقوا على امامته وجلالته وسیادته. قال عمر بن ابى المقدام: کنت اذا نظرت إلى جعفر بن محمّد علمت انّه من سلالة النبیین»

Indeed, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) is worthy of being addressed as an Imam.

All Sunni scholars will agree with this. This is an honorary title for the people of great learning and knowledge. Just as Sunnis address Imam Bukhari, Imam Shafi’i, Imam Muslim, Imam Abu Hanifah etc etc (may Allah have Mercy on them).  This Imamate is not in sense that Shias take it to be.   

Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!!

“Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.”  Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

 إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى

 Any unbiased person can clearly see that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is using the word IMAM for his 3 predecessors (Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them).

Now refer to Arabic version – the actual words uttered by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him).

“If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

He used the word IMAM – Well knowing all the meanings and implications of this word.

Now, choice is yours – which Imamate did Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) imply?

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10 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Indeed, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may Allah have Mercy on him) is worthy of being addressed as an Imam.

All Sunni scholars will agree with this. This is an honorary title for the people of great learning and knowledge. Just as Sunnis address Imam Bukhari, Imam Shafi’i, Imam Muslim, Imam Abu Hanifah etc etc (may Allah have Mercy on them).  This Imamate is not in sense that Shias take it to be.   

Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!!

“Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.”  Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

 إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى

 Any unbiased person can clearly see that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is using the word IMAM for his 3 predecessors (Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them).

Now refer to Arabic version – the actual words uttered by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him).

“If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

He used the word IMAM – Well knowing all the meanings and implications of this word.

Now, choice is yours – which Imamate did Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) imply?

Come on, you have been very biased by choosing Letter 6 and trying to interpret that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) consider them to be valid. If you are unbiased then you will also see that Sermon 3 is very contradiction with your interpretation of Letter 6.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Imāmah is necessary to establish the Sharīʿa, to rule by the Book of Allāh, and the Sunnah of His Messenger ﷺ. Twelvers are unable to fulfill the purpose of Imāmah, so they have reengineered it to be a matter which is mystical, and messianic.

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