Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
19 hours ago, Cool said:

Although the narrations does mention Mehdi (عليه السلام), but I have quoted all these narrations to show how Islam will become dominant in his time that he will fill the earth, the whole earth with قِسطًا وعدلًا

Sorry it doesn't. It doesn't prophesise your imam. It prophecised Muhammad bin abdullah. So try again later. 

 

19 hours ago, Cool said:

And this is the true ta'veel of verse 61:9.

Sorry again, it doesn't. The ayah didn't say prophet will fill the earth with justice and adl. Neither if t says Islam will dominate in the whole world. It just says he will manifest and prevail over other religions which he did. He debunked every religion which he could at that time. While your imam's duties is explaining the Quran and sunnah, guard the religion from corruption ( which he obviously couldn't since according to his followers his forefathers gave contradictory rulings due to taqiyyah). And he doesn't do all of this and he is hiding out of no reason. 

 

20 hours ago, Cool said:

So once again, checkmate. This is called hunting two prey with one arrow. Established the Imamate of Mehdi (عليه السلام) as well as given younthe true ta'veel of verse 61:9 & 9:33 whichever you prefer. 

You couldn't. As usual you didn't know what you were quoting. Tried to establish the imamate of shia mahdi which the narration doesn't even mention

 

18 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Hmmm, I could have sworn you said Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) were Imams.

When did I said prophet and ibrahim were not imams. 

 

18 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Who is your Imam today?

If you mean a present imam as the shia think, who guides people in religion, explain quran and sunnah. Then the answer is noone. Having no imam is better than having an imam who is hidden for 1200 years who doesn't benifit us in our religion. 

 

14 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

If i'm given a choice i'm going with b. Between the wickedness of man, his desire for this world and the thousands of years of history that prove his wickedness, we can be sure that if we need anything we need guidance.

If I was given the choice, I would chose b too. But the supposed guide doesn't benifitted us in any aspect of religion for 1200 years. That's the point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
25 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

 

15 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

If i'm given a choice i'm going with b. Between the wickedness of man, his desire for this world and the thousands of years of history that prove his wickedness, we can be sure that if we need anything we need guidance.

If I was given the choice, I would chose b too. But the supposed guide doesn't benifitted us in any aspect of religion for 1200 years. That's the point. 

Brother this is truly a belief that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has abandoned us. It is like bani isreal when Moses ﷺ   stayed an extra 10 days on the mountain and they abandoned all the was given to them. After Jesus ﷺ  there was 600 years for Mohamad ﷺ to come - between Moses ﷺ was Jesus ﷺ was 1400 years. What is the purpose of waiting for a judgement day when we could just get it over with. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has a plan, he has given us the Quran, Sunna and a pure family to guide us - and he has instructed us to hold onto them. So hold on and be patient.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry it doesn't. It doesn't prophesise your imam

lol, I have not quoted the hadith for proving anything about "my" Imam. I have just quoted you the ahadith to show you that you have an Imam named Mehdi who will fill the earth with justice as per the ahadith. And that Imam belongs to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

When he appear, he will tell you his father's name too. Until then feel the pain, it's a checkmate bro. Enjoy!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, I have not quoted the hadith for proving anything about "my" Imam. I have just quoted you the ahadith to show you that you have an Imam named Mehdi who will fill the earth with justice as per the ahadith. And that Imam belongs to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

When he appear, he will tell you his father's name too. Until then feel the pain, it's a checkmate bro. Enjoy!!!

:hahaha:. Your imamah madhab os indefendable. If there is need of an infallible guide to guide us through infallible explainations, then the infallible guide must do so. He must stop being afraid of getting killed, stop testing people, come out of his ghaybah and start doing his duties. If he didn't, then there is no need of an infallible guide at all times, which means your concept of imamah is just a philosophical mumbo jumbo and completely impractical. 

Imamah is such an impractical madhab that shia themselves couldn't apply that in their real life and had to invent a concept called wilayah faqih. According to the imamah concept, the imam is reference in wordly and religious matters. The imam who should rule the ummah must be infallible, appointed by god, most knowledgeable, perfect, best. All these are just ridiculous expectation and highly impractical which you yourself couldn't apply. Iran is lead by an fallible, chosen by people, not the best and not the most knowledgeable guy. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
22 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Imamah is such an impractical madhab that shia themselves couldn't apply that in their real life and had to invent a concept called wilayah faqih.

While you are saying this but your hadith books are saying the opposite:

كيفَ أنتم إذا نزلَ ابنُ مَريمَ فِيكُمْ و إِمامُكمْ مِنكُمْ

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : صحيح الجامع | الصفحة أو الرقم : 4591 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : صحيح | التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (3449)، ومسلم (155)

Bang!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

:hahaha:. Your imamah madhab os indefendable. If there is need of an infallible guide to guide us through infallible explainations, then the infallible guide must do so. He must stop being afraid of getting killed, stop testing people, come out of his ghaybah and start doing his duties. If he didn't, then there is no need of an infallible guide at all times, which means your concept of imamah is just a philosophical mumbo jumbo and completely impractical. 

Imamah is such an impractical madhab that shia themselves couldn't apply that in their real life and had to invent a concept called wilayah faqih. According to the imamah concept, the imam is reference in wordly and religious matters. The imam who should rule the ummah must be infallible, appointed by god, most knowledgeable, perfect, best. All these are just ridiculous expectation and highly impractical which you yourself couldn't apply. Iran is lead by an fallible, chosen by people, not the best and not the most knowledgeable guy. 

 

Wow - you destroyed him dude - annihilated . Mohamad ﷺ didn't hide in a cave, he didn't wait for the conditions to be right to spread the word, he didn't have to ask for his uncle to help him or wait for 10 years to leave Mecca and another 10 to return - he just came out swords blazing and swept all injustice aside. I mean walla what is allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) waiting for why did he need thousands of prophets, he could have fixed it all day one (astagfirallah). 

I mean truly you are lost. You leave the imam to us, you go stand under your own banner .. (17:71) Yusuf Ali: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Good Luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

When did I said prophet and ibrahim were not imams. 

If you mean a present imam as the shia think, who guides people in religion, explain quran and sunnah. Then the answer is noone. Having no imam is better than having an imam who is hidden for 1200 years who doesn't benifit us in our religion. 

You are jumping around too much. You said the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) were Imams AND also said you don't believe in Imamah.

I didn't ask you if believe in the 12 Imams but if you believe in Imamah.

I also didn't ask you if you believe in the 12th Imam but who is your Imam today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

If there is need of an infallible guide to guide us through infallible explainations, then the infallible guide must do so. He must stop being afraid of getting killed, stop testing people, come out of his ghaybah and start doing his duties.

Fallacy argument. What verse or narration demands that an Imam (عليه السلام) must be come out of ghaybah when God have not yet decide him to come out from ghaybah? The very same argument for Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) for descending is depending on the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to happen so. There is an need for Jesus (عليه السلام) to guide and judge us, does it follow that just because there is an need, then Jesus must already descend upon us?

Quote

Having no imam is better than having an imam who is hidden for 1200 years who doesn't benifit us in our religion. 

I don't know whose Imam you are talking about, for sure it is not our Imam (عليه السلام). Beneficiation is not limited to an apperant Imam (عليه السلام) who comes out of ghaybah to help us.

“…and He lavished upon you His favours, both apparent (thahir) and hidden (batin)…” (31:20).

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
29 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Fallacy argument. What verse or narration demands that an Imam (عليه السلام) must be come out of ghaybah when God have not yet decide him to come out from ghaybah? The very same argument for Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) for descending is depending on the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to happen so. There is an need for Jesus (عليه السلام) to guide and judge us, does it follow that just because there is an need, then Jesus must already descend upon us?

I don't know whose Imam you are talking about, for sure it is not our Imam (عليه السلام). Beneficiation is not limited to an active Imam (عليه السلام) who comes out of ghaybah to help us.

“…and He lavished upon you His favours, both apparent (thahir) and hidden (batin)…” (31:20).

My brother @sunni muslim hasn't read Surah Israa'. Whoever is blind in following an Imam will be blind in the Hereafter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/10/2022 at 7:22 PM, Abu Nur said:

Use your time more to Ibaadah than to waste it here. You have already demonstrated your intention and you will only waste our time.

@sunni muslim This was the most appropriate response for your question in the entire thread. But you never agreed and wasted 3 pages.

Surah Al Baqarah verse 45:

45) And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It doesn't prophesise your imam. It prophecised Muhammad bin abdullah. So

The single report which has the additional phrase (that his father’s name is the same as that of the Prophet’s father) has been probably fabricated by Abdullah Ibn al-Hasan (Muthanna -- the second) Ibn (Imam) al-Hasan (عليه السلام). Abdullah (d. 145/762) had a son named Muhammad who called him "Nafs al-Zakiyyah”and the Mahdi. (See Ibn Taqtuqa, al-Fikr fi al-Adab al- Sultaniyyah, pp 165-166). Abdullah used all his power and wealth to support the revolt of his son. Abdullah concealed his son several times during the Umayad period when there was still no danger for him. When he was asked why he did this, he said: "What an idea, their time has not come yet.”(Murooj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas’udi, v6, pp 107-108). In the first letter that Muhammad wrote to the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mansoor, he wrote: "From Muhammad Ibn Abdillah, the Mahdi, ...”(Tabari, v3, p29, Ibn Kathir V10, p85, Ibn Khaldoon, v4, p4).

 

Muhammad Ibn Abdillah started his claims at the end of the rule of the Umayad caliphs. Muhammad became powerful and tried to gain the support of the last Umayad Caliph who was Marwan Ibn Muhammad (132/750), but the Caliph did not pay attention to him:

 

Abul Abbas al-Falasti said to Marwan: "Muhammad Ibn Abdillah is striving to gain the power for he is claiming to be al-Mahdi". Marwan replied: "What does he have to do with me? (the Mahdi) is not him, nor any of his father’s descendants. He will be the son of a slave woman."

 

Sunni Reference:

 

• Maqatil al-Talibeen, by Abul Faraj al-Isbahani, Pub. in Saudi Arabia, pp 247,258

 

When Marwan said that al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) is not one of his father’s descendants, he meant the descendants of Imam al-Hasan (عليه السلام), for al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) is the descendant of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) and is son of a slave woman (umm walad). Even Marwan was aware of these traditions because of which he did not pay attention to Muhammad Ibn Abdillah. This shows that the true versions of traditions from the Prophet were wide-spread at that time.

 

There is also a possibility that the fabrication of that extra phrase was done the Abbasid Caliph, Abdullah al-Mansoor, who called his son the Mahdi:

 

Muslim Ibn Qutaybah said: "Mansoor called me and said: Muhammad Ibn Abdillah rebelled and he called himself the Mahdi. By Allah he is not. I will tell you something else which I have told no one before, and will tell no one after you. By Allah my son is not the Mahdi either,... but I did so to make a good future for him."

 

Sunni Reference:

 

• Maqatil al-Talibeen, by Abul Faraj al-Isbahani, Pub. in Saudi Arabia, pp 246-247

 

Also the Caliph al-Mansoor fabricated the following "tradition":

 

Ibn Abbas (allegedly) said: "These four are from us Ahlul-Bayt: al-Saffah, al-Mundhir, al-Mansoor, and al-Mahdi.”(Recorded by al-Hakim).

 

It is clear that by fabricating the above reports, al-Mansoor was sorting the chain of Abbasid Caliphs and included his name and the name of his son, Mahdi, among Ahlul-Bayt! Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) never uttered such words, and he himself is not among Ahlul-Bayt, let alone those Abbasid tyrants.

 

From all above it can be seen that the fabrication of the report which includes that extra phrase, could be reconciled on Muhammad Ibn Abdillah and/or the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mahdi. This is not the place to examine the Hadith critically, but merely to point out the historical background of it.

 

As I mentioned, majority of Sunni scholars rejected that single report. The following are the name of some Sunni scholars who wrote that Imam al-Mahdi has already been born, and is the and is the only son of Imam Hasan al-Askari (عليه السلام), and he is alive and in occultation, and will re-appear to establish the government of Justice. With this, they are in agreement with the Shi’a. Their names are:

 

1.Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su’aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool"

 

2.Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah”who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.

 

3.Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi’i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman”and "Kifayah al-Talib".

 

4.Shaikh Nooruddin ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.

 

5.Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"

 

6.Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia”(Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (عليه السلام), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.

 

7.Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A’imma wa Wafiyatihim"

 

8.Shaikh Abdullah Sha’rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) in his other book "Aqa’id al-Akabir".

 

9.Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha’rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha’rani’s meeting with the twelfth Imam.

 

10.Sayyid ‘Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha’rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha’rani with the twelfth Imam.

 

11.Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shi’a records.

 

12.Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab”gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.

 

13.Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.

 

14.Sayyid Jamaluddin Husayni Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar [edited out], Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab”is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:

 

The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha’ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:

 

• al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)

 

• al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)

 

• Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

 

15.al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir’at al-Asrar”(The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.

 

16.’Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns”by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.

 

17.Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada”has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.

 

18.Nasr Ibn ‘Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi’i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:

 

Qa’im Aale Muhammad (The ‘Support’ among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (S) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.

 

19.Mulla ‘Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (S) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla ‘Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.

 

20.Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya”(Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm.

 

His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (S). Particularly the view of the Shi’a seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.

 

21.Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows

 

• He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha

 

• His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim

 

• He is the last successor of the Prophet (S)

 

• He is the Last Imam of the House

 

• He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah.

This is called proving an argument definitively,   not calling a hadith weak based on one report.

Or denying because your Saudi salafi paid maulana told you so , and you believed it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hasani Samnani
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Quote

Imamah is such an impractical madhab that shia themselves couldn't apply that in their real life and had to invent a concept called wilayah faqih. According to the imamah concept, the imam is reference in wordly and religious matters. The imam who should rule the ummah must be infallible, appointed by god, most knowledgeable, perfect, best. All these are just ridiculous expectation and highly impractical which you yourself couldn't apply. Iran is lead by an fallible, chosen by people, not the best and not the most knowledgeable guy. 

not really, you've misunderstood Imamah with due respect. First Imamah doesn't include sayed khomeini, the Imam is still Imam Mahdi. Imam Mahdi is still the Imam and hujja of Allah, the only difference between him and the previous Imams is that he's not able to be seen and he is in occultation. So Imam Mahdi is still the Imam of the time, whether he is hidden or manifest.
 

As for wilayat al faqih, this is the stand in for when the Imam is in occultation. Wilayat al faqih has different levels, some believe the wali al-faqih has an extraordinary amount of power, and some believe he has less power than that, and if I'm not mistaken some believe it shouldn't be one person only but a council. However the wali al faqih is still the servant of the Imam. The wali-al-faqih must be the most qualified person, someone very knowledgable and pious. According to Ayatollah Sistani, they must at least be a grand Ayatollah, but Sayed Khomeini differed on this point. 

Therefore we get essentially the best of the ummah to lead who is chosen by an assembly of experts who know the criteria to look for in a leader

what is the alternative of ahl-sunnah? is it to not have a leader? @sunni muslim I'm genuinely curious to see your answer to this. We have a leader at least to guide us in the right direction, but what does ahlul-sunnah propose as a solution. For the ummah to just be there, merely a part of the world population until Imam Mahdi comes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
11 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

According to Ayatollah Sistani, they must at least be a grand Ayatollah, but Sayed Khomeini differed on this point. 

I think you mean marja. 'Grand Ayatullah' is just a title and doesn't have a proper definition.  

Also I don't think this was a point of difference between Sistani and Khomeini.  It was one of the criteria of the wali ul faqih during the time of Khomeini but at some point it was no longer considered to be a requirement. I don't recall that Sistani had anything to do with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

 

Quote

 

2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Also I don't think this was a point of difference between Sistani and Khomeini.  It was one of the criteria of the wali ul faqih during the time of Khomeini but at some point it was no longer considered to be a requirement. I don't recall that Sistani had anything to do with it.

Extract taken from the Istifta' (Q&A) of the Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani available on شبكة رافـد للتنمية الثقافية:

ماهي ولاية الفقيه ؟ وماهو أصلها ووجه الأستدلال عليها في القرآن الكريم وعند أهل البيت ـ عليهم السلام ـ؟

الثابت عند سماحة السيد ـ دام ظله ـ حسب الادلة الشرعية ان حكم الفقيه الجامع للشرائط المقبول لدى عامة الناس نافذ في ما يتوقف عليه نظام المجتمع .

Question: What is Wilayat Al-Faqih (Guardianship of the Jurist)? And what is its origin and the its basis from the Holy Qur'an and from AhlulBayt (عليه السلام) ?

Answer: What is fixed in the opinion of H. E the Sayyid (Long May he Live) is that in accordance to the jurisprudential reasonings; the rule of the Jurist (who holds the necessary conditions that are accepted by the majority of the general people) has authority in the areas that are associated with administering a society.

From reading the book of Ayatollah Al-Sistani, “Sharh Sheekhat Al-Faqeeh”; one would get the understanding that the Sayed accepts Wilayat Al-Faqeeh as it is described in the Holy Qur’an and legislated into implementation by the physical depart of Hujjat Allah Ibn Al-Hasan. However, the function of the Faqeeh differs quite drastically from that of Sayed AlKhomeini. It is quite evident that Ayatollah AlSistani is for the idea of a ruling Faqeeh that holds the power over all executive branches of government with no official contention by the people, but usually has a representative (such as the President) whom is elected by the people.

All of this means that the Marje rules (or advises) via the President who upholds the principles of Islam as implemented within the legislation process already. The Nation’s law must be founded on Islamic Principles first before having the Hawza advise the ruling government on how to care for social shifts and troubles. This way, the Hawza becomes the trusted mediator instead of being viewed as a source of problems. Also in his book, the character of the Faqih is very much pondered upon, and he must be a Grand Ayatollah before he even becomes “Al Wali al-Faqih”.

The implementation between this theory and the structure of the ruling government in Iran is quite very different.

(The above answer is derived from the website of Ayatullah Sistani and the Shiacat website)

 

"Also I don't think this was a point of difference between Sistani and Khomeini.  It was one of the criteria of the wali ul faqih during the time of Khomeini but at some point it was no longer considered to be a requirement. I don't recall that Sistani had anything to do with it."

I was wrong, according to wikipedia it was changed after the death of sayed Khomeini

 

Edited by VoidVortex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Sorry for the late reply. I was a little busy. 

On 8/15/2022 at 1:21 AM, Cool said:

While you are saying this but your hadith books are saying the opposite:

كيفَ أنتم إذا نزلَ ابنُ مَريمَ فِيكُمْ و إِمامُكمْ مِنكُمْ

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : صحيح الجامع | الصفحة أو الرقم : 4591 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : صحيح | التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (3449)، ومسلم (155)

Bang!!

It doesn't. All it says isa will pray behind imam mahdi. Your concept of imamah is still impractical. Try again. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 5:07 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

You are jumping around too much. You said the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) were Imams AND also said you don't believe in Imamah

It's you who is jumping around too much. Answer the questions I asked. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 5:07 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

I also didn't ask you if you believe in the 12th Imam but who is your Imam today.

I already answered that. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 5:07 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

If you mean a present imam as the shia think, who guides people in religion, explain quran and sunnah. Then the answer is noone. Having no imam is better than having an imam who is hidden for 1200 years who doesn't benifit us in our religion. 

Read this again and stop wasting my time. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 7:32 AM, Abu Nur said:

Fallacy argument

Sorry. Not a fallacy argument rather a neck breaking argument. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 7:32 AM, Abu Nur said:

What verse or narration demands that an Imam (عليه السلام) must be come out of ghaybah when God have not yet decide him to come out from ghaybah?

You don't even have a gist of what this debate is all about. The debate is whether there is a rational proof that there must be an imam. Shia says yes, and they provided rational arguments on how there must be an infallible imam at all times, I debunked that by using the same rationale that shia used. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 7:32 AM, Abu Nur said:

The very same argument for Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) for descending is depending on the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to happen so

As explained to you all atleast 10 times in that ghaybah and imamah thread by that alif guy, sunnis don't believe there must be an infallible guide at all times that's why Jesus not being present with us doesn't contradict our claim. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 7:32 AM, Abu Nur said:

I don't know whose Imam you are talking about, for sure it is not our Imam (عليه السلام). Beneficiation is not limited to an apperant Imam (عليه السلام) who comes out of ghaybah to help us.

I said benenificiation in regards to religion. Since you use rational arguments about Allah has to appoint someone infallible who would expound the religion. Imam doesn't benifit us at all in religious matters. Not in fiqh, hadith, usool, furoo nor anything. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Hasani Samnani said:

The single report which has the additional phrase (that his father’s name is the same as that of the Prophet’s father) has been probably fabricated by Abdullah Ibn al-Hasan (Muthanna -- the second) Ibn (Imam) al-Hasan (عليه السلام). Abdullah (d. 145/762) had a son named Muhammad who called him "Nafs al-Zakiyyah”and the Mahdi. (See Ibn Taqtuqa, al-Fikr fi al-Adab al- Sultaniyyah, pp 165-166). Abdullah used all his power and wealth to support the revolt of his son. Abdullah concealed his son several times during the Umayad period when there was still no danger for him. When he was asked why he did this, he said: "What an idea, their time has not come yet.”(Murooj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas’udi, v6, pp 107-108). In the first letter that Muhammad wrote to the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mansoor, he wrote: "From Muhammad Ibn Abdillah, the Mahdi, ...”(Tabari, v3, p29, Ibn Kathir V10, p85, Ibn Khaldoon, v4, p4

There is no proof of that. There is no proof that abdullah bin hasan fabricated that narrations. All you have is just assumptions. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Hasani Samnani said:

As I mentioned, majority of Sunni scholars rejected that single report.

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Hasani Samnani said:

1.Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su’aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Hasani Samnani said:

2.Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah”who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.

 

3.Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi’i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman”and "Kifayah al-Talib".

 

4.Shaikh Nooruddin ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.

 

5.Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"

 

6.Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia”(Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (عليه السلام), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.

 

7.Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A’imma wa Wafiyatihim"

 

8.Shaikh Abdullah Sha’rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) in his other book "Aqa’id al-Akabir".

 

9.Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha’rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha’rani’s meeting with the twelfth Imam.

 

10.Sayyid ‘Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha’rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha’rani with the twelfth Imam.

 

11.Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shi’a records.

 

12.Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab”gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.

 

13.Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.

 

14.Sayyid Jamaluddin Husayni Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar [edited out], Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab”is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:

 

The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha’ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:

 

• al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)

 

• al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)

 

• Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

 

15.al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir’at al-Asrar”(The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.

 

16.’Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns”by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.

 

17.Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada”has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.

 

18.Nasr Ibn ‘Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi’i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:

 

Qa’im Aale Muhammad (The ‘Support’ among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (S) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.

 

19.Mulla ‘Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (S) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla ‘Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.

 

20.Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya”(Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm.

 

His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (S). Particularly the view of the Shi’a seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.

 

21.Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows

 

• He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha

 

• His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim

 

• He is the last successor of the Prophet (S)

 

• He is the Last Imam of the House

 

• He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah

Scholars saying are not hujjah in front of an authentic hadith. In that ghadeer thread, when I quoted your scholars who believed that ghadeer is vague, you all started quoting shia hadeeths and said non masoom's statement is not a hujjah against a statement of masoom. My argument is the same. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Hasani Samnani said:

This is called proving an argument definitively,   not calling a hadith weak based on one report

This is called changing the topic. The topic was is there a intellectual necessity of imamah not who is the mahdi. Stick to the topic. 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 10:42 PM, VoidVortex said:

not really, you've misunderstood Imamah with due respect. First Imamah doesn't include sayed khomeini, the Imam is still Imam Mahdi. Imam Mahdi is still the Imam and hujja of Allah, the only difference between him and the previous Imams is that he's not able to be seen and he is in occultation. So Imam Mahdi is still the Imam of the time, whether he is hidden or manifest.

You didn't understand my point. Shia always taunted sunnis of how their concept of khilafah is against the Quran. Political leader of islam should be appointed by Allah alone. The leader should be best, the most knowledgeable and also infallible. While you know this is ridiculous and while the imam is in ghaybah, there is a need of a political leader, since you can't leave a nation without a leader, you have to appoint  yourself a leader. This is the madhab of ahlus sunnah. They believe there is no need of divine appointment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

It's you who is jumping around too much. Answer the questions I asked. 

I already answered that. 

Read this again and stop wasting my time. 

Still wondering if you've read the ayah about everyone being raised with an Imam and those who dont have one will be blind in the hereafter but so be it I suppose.

I was one of the first ones to answer your post. Imamah is needed because Allah said everyone will be raised with an Imam but if one's heart is sealed, then it is sealed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

There is no proof of that. There is no proof that abdullah bin hasan fabricated that narrations. All you have is just assumptions. 

Uhhhh bro , Abdullah ibn Hasan Muthanna is one of our Shia leaders, as I have clearly shown more than 50 Islamic scholars gave the correct name of our Imam.  

You have one weak report based on Shia sources, re Mohammed ibn Abdullah.

If that's what you want to stake your intellectual reputation on by all means go ahead bro.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

You don't even have a gist of what this debate is all about. The debate is whether there is a rational proof that there must be an imam. Shia says yes, and they provided rational arguments on how there must be an infallible imam at all times, I debunked that by using the same rationale that shia used. 

 

Yes the debate is about the rational proof about the continues of divine leadership but I did not even reply directly to it. Rather I was replying to your fallacy argument of "if needed then he must do it". 

Quote

I said benenificiation in regards to religion. Since you use rational arguments about Allah has to appoint someone infallible who would expound the religion. Imam doesn't benifit us at all in religious matters. Not in fiqh, hadith, usool, furoo nor anything. 

Anything? Do you think the Ghaybah of Yusuf was not religious benefit for Ya'quub when at the same time Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) could easily return him to his father? There is benefit there. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless us and guide us by having faith in Hidden Imam (عليه السلام) and his return. That itself is the hidden favor. I mean for sake of argument let assume that God made wajib to us to believe in Hidden Imam, the rejectors will become disobedient and possible kafirs and the believers will benefit by the faith itself! 

Quote

Allah has to appoint someone infallible who would expound the religion

That is an time when he becomes an apparent Imam (عليه السلام). 

Quote

You didn't understand my point. Shia always taunted sunnis of how their concept of khilafah is against the Quran. Political leader of islam should be appointed by Allah alone. The leader should be best, the most knowledgeable and also infallible. While you know this is ridiculous and while the imam is in ghaybah, there is a need of a political leader, since you can't leave a nation without a leader, you have to appoint  yourself a leader. This is the madhab of ahlus sunnah. They believe there is no need of divine appointment. 

 

There is an need for leader and we already have a leader. Infallible and most knowlegeable Musa (عليه السلام) did not become a non-leader when he went to ghaybah from his Ummah, rather inactive one. Then he returned and continued his active leadership. 

Quote

The leader should be best, the most knowledgeable and also infallible. While you know this is ridiculous

Very riduculous to have an divinly appointed leadership and having fallible sinfull leadership to guide us is not.

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It doesn't. All it says isa will pray behind imam mahdi

Ok, So you would have an Imam whose name will be Muhammad al-Mehdi, he will be from Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام, Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) will pray behind him and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fill the earth with قسطا و عدلا through him:

لَتُمْلَأَنَّ الأرضُ ظلمًا وعدوانًا ، ثُمَّ لَيَخْرُجَنَّ رجلٌ مِنْ أهلِ بيتِي ، حتَّى يملأَها قِسْطًا وعدلًا ، كما مُلئَتْ ظلمًا وعدوانًا

الراوي : أبو سعيد الخدري | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : صحيح الجامع | الصفحة أو الرقم : 5074 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : صحيح

Do you agree with what is being said and with these two ahadith?

Edited by Cool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
12 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

You have one weak report based on Shia sources, re Mohammed ibn Abdullah.

The hadith is authentic according to us. It is narrated in abu dawud. 

 

12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes the debate is about the rational proof about the continues of divine leadership but I did not even reply directly to it. Rather I was replying to your fallacy argument of "if needed then he must do it". 

Its your reply which is a fallacy. First you guys believe that it is obligatory upon Allah that he appoin an infallible imam at all time due to to his kindness. Because quran and sunnah doesn't have detailed rulings, so it is against God's lutf that he leave the religion without a infallible imam who could explain them and also believe at the same time that imam is also hidden for 1200 years and he didn't provided any benifit in religious matters. Shia hadith are filled with contradiction which lead to so many different fatawas of the Shia jurists. Either believe like ismailis who also believe imamah as you do and their imam is present and benifit them in religion or believe like zaidis who don't believe Allah is obliged to appoint an imam at all time. 

 

12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Anything? Do you think the Ghaybah of Yusuf was not religious benefit for Ya'quub when at the same time Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) could easily return him to his father? There is benefit there. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless us and guide us by having faith in Hidden Imam (عليه السلام) and his return. That itself is the hidden favor. I mean for sake of argument let assume that God made wajib to us to believe in Hidden Imam, the rejectors will become disobedient and possible kafirs and the believers will benefit by the faith itself! 

 

12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

There is an need for leader and we already have a leader. Infallible and most knowlegeable Musa (عليه السلام) did not become a non-leader when he went to ghaybah from his Ummah, rather inactive one. Then he returned and continued his active leadership. 

As mentioned earlier. Ahlus sunnah don't believe that there must be a prophet at all time nor did they believe that there must be an imam at all time. 

According to your authentic narrations, imams themselves couldn't guide their own followers rather they gave contradictory rulings to save themselves. 

أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ ثَعْلَبَةَ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ مَسْأَلَةٍ فَأَجَابَنِي ثُمَّ جَاءَهُ رَجُلٌ فَسَأَلَهُ عَنْهَا فَأَجَابَهُ بِخِلَافِ مَا أَجَابَنِي ثُمَّ جَاءَ رَجُلٌ آخَرُ فَأَجَابَهُ بِخِلَافِ مَا أَجَابَنِي وَ أَجَابَ صَاحِبِي فَلَمَّا خَرَجَ الرَّجُلَانِ قُلْتُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ رَجُلَانِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْعِرَاقِ مِنْ شِيعَتِكُمْ قَدِمَا يَسْأَلَانِ فَأَجَبْتَ كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا بِغَيْرِ مَا أَجَبْتَ بِهِ صَاحِبَهُ فَقَالَ يَا زُرَارَةُ إِنَّ هَذَا خَيْرٌ لَنَا وَ أَبْقَى لَنَا وَ لَكُمْ وَ لَوِ اجْتَمَعْتُمْ عَلَى أَمْرٍ وَاحِدٍ لَصَدَّقَكُمُ النَّاسُ عَلَيْنَا وَ لَكَانَ أَقَلَّ لِبَقَائِنَا وَ بَقَائِكُمْ قَالَ ثُمَّ قُلْتُ لِأَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) شِيعَتُكُمْ لَوْ حَمَلْتُمُوهُمْ عَلَى الْأَسِنَّةِ أَوْ عَلَى النَّارِ لَمَضَوْا وَ هُمْ يَخْرُجُونَ مِنْ عِنْدِكُمْ مُخْتَلِفِينَ قَالَ فَأَجَابَنِي بِمِثْلِ جَوَابِ أَبِيهِ .

Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn ‘Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.” Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih(authentic).

Rawdat al-Muttaqeen fi Sharh man la Yahduruhu al-Faqeeh vo.3 pg.44:

روضة المتقين في شرح من لا يحضره الفقيه، للمجلسي ج‏3، ص: 44 :
و في الصحيح، عن زرارة قال: كنت قاعدا عند أبي جعفر عليه السلام و ليس عنده غير ابنه جعفر عليه السلام فقال: يا زرارة إن أبا ذر و عثمان تنازعا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم فقال عثمان كل مال من ذهب أو فضة يدار به و يعمل به فيتجر به ففيه الزكاة إذا حال عليه الحول، فقال أبو ذر (أما خ ل) ما يتجر به أو دير و عمل به فليس فيه زكاة، إنما الزكاة فيه إذا كان ركازا أو كنزا موضوعا، فإذا حال عليه الحول ففيه الزكاة فاختصما في ذلك إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم قال فقال: القول ما قاله أبو ذر،
فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام لأبيه عليه السلام، ما تريد إلا أن تخرج مثل هذا فيكف الناس أن يعطفوا على فقرائهم و مساكينهم؟
فقال: إليك عني لا أجد منها بدا.

[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (عليه السلام), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”
Abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (عليه السلام) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (عليه السلام) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”]

Shia scholar al-Majlisi said in his commentary:
الظاهر أن منازعتهما صلوات الله عليهما كان لإسكات العامة بأن يقولوا إن ابنه نازع معه و لم يقبل منه لأنه ما يقول إلا ما نقل، عن آبائه عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم عن الله عز و جل. أ.هـ
“What is apparent is that their(Imams)(pbut) dispute  was to silence the ‘Amah(Sunnies) so that they may say: He quarreled with him and did not accept from him because he only reports what he heard from his fathers from the Prophet (SAWS) from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).”

You believe that it is against God's lutf to leave his religion without an infallible imam. And according to your narrations imam guide people in religion like this. What a joke. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
3 hours ago, Cool said:

Ok, So you would have an Imam whose name will be Muhammad al-Mehdi, he will be from Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام, Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) will pray behind him and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fill the earth with قسطا و عدلا through him:

لَتُمْلَأَنَّ الأرضُ ظلمًا وعدوانًا ، ثُمَّ لَيَخْرُجَنَّ رجلٌ مِنْ أهلِ بيتِي ، حتَّى يملأَها قِسْطًا وعدلًا ، كما مُلئَتْ ظلمًا وعدوانًا

الراوي : أبو سعيد الخدري | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : صحيح الجامع | الصفحة أو الرقم : 5074 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : صحيح

Do you agree with what is being said and with these two ahadith?

@SunniMuslim@sunni muslim, you deliberately left this question or forgot to respond?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, Cool said:

@SunniMuslim@sunni muslim, you deliberately left this question or forgot to respond?

Oh sorry bro. I forgot to respond. 

 

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Ok, So you would have an Imam whose name will be Muhammad al-Mehdi, he will be from Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام, Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) will pray behind him and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fill the earth with قسطا و عدلا through him:

لَتُمْلَأَنَّ الأرضُ ظلمًا وعدوانًا ، ثُمَّ لَيَخْرُجَنَّ رجلٌ مِنْ أهلِ بيتِي ، حتَّى يملأَها قِسْطًا وعدلًا ، كما مُلئَتْ ظلمًا وعدوانًا

الراوي : أبو سعيد الخدري | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : صحيح الجامع | الصفحة أو الرقم : 5074 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : صحيح

Do you agree with what is being said and with these two ahadith?

Yup,  I agree. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Oh sorry bro. I forgot to respond. 

 

Yup,  I agree. 

Then you already know what you asked in OP. Why Imamah is necessary? 

And as per the statement you agreed with, the rational reasons are as under:

1. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fill the earth with قسطا و عدلا through him:

2. Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) will descend and he will pray behind an Imam, so Imamah is necessary.

That's all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Then you already know what you asked in OP. Why Imamah is necessary? 

And as per the statement you agreed with, the rational reasons are as under:

1. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fill the earth with قسطا و عدلا through him:

2. Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) will descend and he will pray behind an Imam, so Imamah is necessary.

That's all. 

It didn't. Just because isa will pray behind him near the end of times, it doesn't mean that there is a need of infallible imam at all time to expound the religion. Nor does it take the fact that imamah is highly impractical. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

It didn't. Just because isa will pray behind him near the end of times, it doesn't mean that there is a need of infallible imam at all time 

Forget about infallibility, it is not the topic. Topic is Imamah. 

So if there is no need of Imam, what do you think of the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Was he kidding (naudobillah)?

3 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Nor does it take the fact that imamah is highly impractical. 

Imamah is highly impractical??? Ok, So you are complaining to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as to why He gave Ibrahim (عليه السلام) a covenant which is highly impractical. I can't help you here as you are moving out of the folds of Islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
39 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Because quran and sunnah doesn't have detailed rulings, so it is against God's lutf that he leave the religion without a infallible imam who could explain them and also believe at the same time that imam is also hidden for 1200 years and he didn't provided any benifit in religious matters.

the religion is more than just fiqh. the point of the Imam is not only clearing up rulings

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Forget about infallibility, it is not the topic. Topic is Imamah. 

So if there is no need of Imam, what do you think of the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Was he kidding (naudobillah)?

You  don't have a gist of what I'm saying. The point of the discussion is there must be an imam 'at all time'. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 minute ago, VoidVortex said:

the religion is more than just fiqh. the point of the Imam is not only clearing up rulings

That's true. The imam is not benifiting us in any aspect of religion, not in hadeeth, aqeedah, tafseer, nor anything

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

You  don't have a gist of what I'm saying. The point of the discussion is there must be an imam 'at all time

You don't have the courage to accept your defeat. 

So who is your Imam now? Whom you are following? Abu Hanifah or Shafi'i, or Malik or Hanbal? Who exactly is your Imam & why he is your Imam?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
10 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

The imam is not benifiting us in any aspect of religion, not in hadeeth, aqeedah, tafseer, nor anything

Does Abu Hanifah or Shafi'i or Malik or Hanbal benifiting you? Why you put Imam before their names? So they can benefit  you even after their death. 

Are you not "waiting" for Imam Mehdi? Don't you pray to Allah that may He reveal him in your life time? Don't you believe in the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Its your reply which is a fallacy. First you guys believe that it is obligatory upon Allah that he appoin an infallible imam at all time due to to his kindness. Because quran and sunnah doesn't have detailed rulings, so it is against God's lutf that he leave the religion without a infallible imam who could explain them and also believe at the same time that imam is also hidden for 1200 years and he didn't provided any benifit in religious matters. Shia hadith are filled with contradiction which lead to so many different fatawas of the Shia jurists. Either believe like ismailis who also believe imamah as you do and their imam is present and benifit them in religion or believe like zaidis who don't believe Allah is obliged to appoint an imam at all time. 

 

Irrelevant. Detailenedess and different fatwas (I have no idea where did you get that ulema have many different fatwas) have nothing to do ageinst God Lutf for not to give us already an apperent Imam who explain them when we need him. He can and He have already demostrated many times that Ghaybah is reality. That no matter how much we need, It is in the end Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who decide when to give.

“If your water were to disappear into the earth, who then can bring you gushing water?” (67:30).

Quote

As mentioned earlier. Ahlus sunnah don't believe that there must be a prophet at all time nor did they believe that there must be an imam at all time. 

I'm arguing ageinst you who think our belief is nonsense. I gave you an scenary that if we were right, there is nothing nonsense about it:

For sake of argument let assume that God made wajib to us to believe in Hidden Imam, the rejectors will become disobedient and possible kafirs and the believers will benefit by the faith itself! 

Quote

According to your authentic narrations, imams themselves couldn't guide their own followers rather they gave contradictory rulings to save themselves. 

Please, don't do this, don't try to understand our narrations with your bigot arrogant mentality, it dosent benefit you at all.

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
8 minutes ago, Cool said:

You don't have the courage to accept your defeat

Keep dreaming. 

 

8 minutes ago, Cool said:

So who is your Imam now? Whom you are following? Abu Hanifah or Shafi'i, or Malik or Hanbal? Who exactly is your Imam & why he is your Imam?

Already answered. 

On 8/14/2022 at 10:45 PM, sunni muslim said:

If you mean a present imam as the shia think, who guides people in religion, explain quran and sunnah. Then the answer is noone. Having no imam is better than having an imam who is hidden for 1200 years who doesn't benifit us in our religion. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Does Abu Hanifah or Shafi'i or Malik or Hanbal benifiting you? Why you put Imam before their names? So they can benefit  you even after their death. 

Even though they are dead. We can still benifit from them. Students of abu hanifa narrated his fiqh views, shafii, malik and ahmad themselves wrote books. While your imam doesn't benifit in anything even though according to you he is alive. All he did was collect khums at the time of his ghaybah sughra and answer some fiqh issues and nothing else. :hahaha:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
20 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

We can still benifit from them. Students of abu hanifa narrated his fiqh views, shafii, malik and ahmad themselves wrote books.

Thank you for accepting this. Now let me tell you that most of these Imams of yours were the student of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), they have learned fiqh from him and become deviated afterward as they love to be "darbari mullah". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Thank you for accepting this. Now let me tell you that most of these Imams of yours were the student of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), they have learned fiqh from him and become deviated afterward as they love to be "darbari mullah". 

Not most of those. Abu hanifa benifitted from his knowledgeknowledge but abu hanifa took his usool ul fiqh from companions of ibn masud. Malik took knowledge from people of madina, shafii and ahmad travelled a lot to acquire knowledge

Edited by sunni muslim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2022 at 4:10 PM, sunni muslim said:

Its your reply which is a fallacy. First you guys believe that it is obligatory upon Allah that he appoin an infallible imam at all time due to to his kindness. Because quran and sunnah doesn't have detailed rulings, so it is against God's lutf that he leave the religion without a infallible imam who could explain them and also believe at the same time that imam is also hidden for 1200 

 Here i like to ask the following simple questions:

1- As in the light of the verses of quran the guidance comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams. Obviously, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is in Ghayb and cannot be seen,  The prophet saw is in Ghayb presently and it cannot be seen for about 1400 years. The quran mentions us to follow the prophet and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then would you like to explain that how a muslim can follow those that are not visible to our eyes presently? Does it mean a contradiction in verses of quran?

2.  Quran is present to our eyes, but it cannot alone be understood unless we have a someone like prophet or Imam or guide.  This is inline with the concept of religion of Muslims. Then who is the guide leader at present who leads the Muslims to the true guidance?  As per your statement sunni do not need a guide, but the verse of quran states that there is a guide for every nation? Is it not a contradiction with the verses of quran?

3- The angels are performing their assigned duties but those cannot be seen by our eyes. Is there evidence that they are performing their assigned duties? Thats is necessary to get the evidence of those performing their duties though they are in Ghayb?

4- It is our believe that here is no end or cessation of the guidance by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams. There are many evidence well defined in the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

5- If you consider that the guidance from sources including Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and imams (including from 12th Imam) has been ceased,  ended or damaged / disturbed etc as we cannot see those  then please provide the textural evidence of your claim from the verse of quran and hadith of the prophet mentioning clearly that the : Guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet, quran and Imams (including 12th imams) has been ceased,  ended or damaged.

This is necessary to verify your claims for guidance about 12th imam for which there is no textural; presented yet evidence (as required above).

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...