Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary

[sunni muslim]

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Use your time more to Ibaadah than to waste it here. You have already demonstrated your intention and you will only waste our time.

[sunni muslim]

Just now, Abu Nur said:

Use your time more to Ibaadah than to waste it here. You have already demonstrated your intention and you will only waste our time.

Calm down sir. If you can't answer a question just say that. Don't you waste so much time discussing saqifa. 

[Abu Nur]

Just now, sunni muslim said:

Calm down sir. If you can't answer a question just say that. Don't you waste so much time discussing saqifa. 

Arrogance doesn't suit you brother. It is just a good advice for you if you pay any heed.

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Thank you for the invitation to such an important albeit short discussion.

Reason for why there must be an Imam at all times:

[Shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

This should suffice your ask for a rational and intellectual reason why an Imam is required at all times.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by ShiaMan14

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

We as Muslims believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Why do we believe in Prophethood? What are messengers? Why were they sent?

People needed hidayah and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose messengers from them to guide them and remind them of Allah.

After Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), this need of hidayah still remains as misguided people are going to come till Qayamah. Therefore need of a being, who guides by command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and helps people ( physically or spiritually ) remains.

There must be someone bro, who's Imam of time.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not even left your body without an Imam ( brain ). If brain dies, non of things can function. Imagine not having a brain and having all other body parts 100% okay. They become useless and cant function. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hasnt left your body without an imam, you think he would leave his religion/world without an imam?

[sunni muslim]

Quote scholars if you want to

[Muslim2010]

5 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Why do Shias believe in the Imams and their Imamate? - Questions Archive - IslamQuest is a reference for Islamic questions on the internet

[Ibn-e-Muhammad]

Because it is Allah's sunnah to guide humanity at all times. He wants to guide humans, with a guidance that is pristine. And since he is al-Hadi, and he has taken it upon himself to provide such a guidance for mankind. For all of time to come. The operations of nubuwwah and risalah have ended, God surely has decided to not keep sending down any more scripture, nor does he magically appear on Earth to bring us towards Islam. So there must be another way to do the job.  

[AStruggler]

Brother, I invite you to please fully read the following two links, in this order: 

1) https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani/divine-leadership-imamat

2) https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani/twelve-imams

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by AStruggler

[Cool]

17 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

I would like to extract my rational & intellectual reason from Quran al-Hakeem. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said in Quran:

اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَمِنَ الْأَرْضِ مِثْلَهُنَّ يَتَنَزَّلُ الْأَمْرُ بَيْنَهُنَّ لِتَعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا {12}

[Shakir 65:12] Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them; the decree continues to descend among them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge.

As the verse mentions the descension of "Amr", that would automatically mean that there has to be the "Sahib e Amr" on Earth. Who can act upon & according to the Amr of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

The need of the presence of "sahib e amr" is further authenticated by other verses of Holy Quran, some of them are as under:

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ {73}

[Shakir 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

While this verse mentioning the Prophets as "sahiban e amr" (bearers of the amr). So this is my rational & intellectual reason for the need of Nabuwah. 

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ {24}

[Shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

This verse specifically mentioning the Imams of Bani Isra'il who were not Prophets. They are also mentioned in 5:12 too. 

The word used in 5:12 for them is نَقِيبًا. Which comes from root ن ق ب

The word Nuqaba is the plural form of Naqib which has variety of meanings including "knowledgeable and aware of secrets", "guardianship & trust-keeping"etc. This verse points towards the fact that there exist a system of guidance where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also appoints some of His chosen servants to act as guide for their nation, as representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (in the form of bearers of divine covenant known as Imamate) & his messenger. 

In Islamic understanding, this system of guidance is known a wilayah. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) being the sole owner of wilayah, chose & appoint his sincere & devoted servants to guide people and/or to guard the religion itself and the teachings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . Hence we see in Quran the verse of Wilayah which further testify this fact:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

These "Awliya Allah" we know as Imams are the mukhlas servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), these are the truthful ones (sadiqeen), these are the purified ones, guided ones whom Satan cannot misguide & neither do they follow their low desires. They only follow & act upon the divine command, and therefore they are the true leader of Islam. 

Having said that, I have just mentioned just "one" logical & intellectual reason for the necessity of Imam being the bearer of "Amr e ilahi" which never cease to descend. 

I can write a whole book on that subject, the reasons are so many that they may need more than 1000pages to compile them all.

[Hasani Samnani]

19 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I invite shia as to provide rational and intellectual reasons as to why there must be an imam at all time. 

Now this is only a hypothesis,  yet to be proven, but this brother's seemingly innocent posts and subsequent inflammatory and rude responses are very similar to a certain individual who was recently banned for trolling and inflammatory language in our Ghaybah and Imamah threads, maybe someone can provide the link.

In the face of overwhelming Quranic, Hadith, Historical and contextual evidence both posters were always dismissive of such evidence with the same trite rejoinder of....weak hadith, false  irrelevance claims, or strawman arguments. Typical Salafi and deobandi polemical modus operandi.

Additionally, this account was coincidentally and fortuitously opened after other account was banned.

However, I could be completely wrong and I acknowledge that possibility. 

However,  these trolling type questions, during our time of maximum emotions related to our martyrdom commemorative events and sending our condolences to our Grieving Living Imam, are indicative of a malignant type attention seeking  personality complex with a possible component Inferiority complex related to being on the wrong side of major theological matters....strictly clinically speaking. 

Again I will allow for myself to be completely wrong, but hypothetical evidence so far is leading to such a conclusion.

I was indisposed previously with our sad  commemorative events and avoided any work related and  social media for some time, but now am observing and commenting.

Remember brothers, our true sunnah brothers with whom we want respectful dialogue and seek commonality are highly deferential and reverential towards our  Ahlul Bayt and their position theologically.

Whilst there maybe differences in political,  historical and accept hadiths and significance, however well read sunnah and sufi brothers , accept Imam Ali's superiority in religious , spiritual ( the source of all silsaalaa chains), scientific, and  judicial knowledge. In fact, all three caliphs are on record acknowledging that superior knowledge and deferring to Imam Ali in such matters.

In fact many of our more objective non Muslim scholars hypothesize that Imam Ali's acknowledged superiority was put aside because of machiavellian political manoeuvring,  economic considerations and notorious ageism prevalent in tribal Arabia.

 

Maybe our poster could enlighten us on his specific background, sunni Tariqa or Firqa, which sunni Imams he follows since then we can provide and structure our clearly evident proofs towards his specific background and views.

  That is a common beginning In higher level academic discussions , otherwise it would lead one to postulate that his questions are more of a trolling exercise.

During such sad days this would be not considered very honourable and a futile academic excercise towards one with no hope of Salvatory Guidance from our community, and will require  divine intervention thru Allah's current Hujjah, one of the other living Imams or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

 

PS to my honourable brothers and sisters who have provided the overwhelming proofs,  Bravo for your enlightening and scholarly proofs they have been very beneficial to us who don't have such deep knowledge,  but I would hate for your valuable time to be wasted if my hypothesis is correct.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Hasani Samnani

[lyricalsoul29]

I believe in the concept of Imamah, you can refer to Prophet Ibrahim as an example, he was appointed as an Imam (2:124), but I think you're referring to the 12 imams yeah?

after prophet demise, people were split over who to follow, those who follow Imam Ali or the other caliphs who were appointed by among themselves. I am of the belief that that such appointment isn't done by the people but through divinity. That is, if prophets are chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so does Imams. That also means that if prophets has so and so attributes, so does Imams. I mean, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen a man like the Holy Prophet to guide the ummah, you won't expect tom, dick or harry who used to worship idols or burying daughters in the backyard or conspire to kill the Holy Prophet even, to do that important task right?

Again, you can refer to the Quran for the verse "in every nation, there is a warner" (10:47)(16:35)(35:24)(40:5)(22:34-67), to me, that speaks a lot of the importance of having an Imam of the time though our Imam is in occultation thus we have marja/marji in place instead to seek advice on Islamic jurisprudence etc. so the closest thing one can do as a shia is to do tawassul/duas to hasten his reappearance but does that mean his appearance = days nearing to doomsday? 

 

I understand from the sunnis that your version of Al-Mahdi hasn't born yet which is pretty weird, how does he appears alongside with Isa ((عليه السلام))? 

 

 

 

 

[sunni muslim]

Reply to this question. Why is quran and sunnah not enough? 

[ShiaMan14]

52 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Reply to this question. Why is quran and sunnah not enough? 

reply to this question- per the most authentic hadith, did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) leave behind "quran and sunnah" or "quran and AhlulBayt"?

An honest answer will answer the OP as well.

[sunni muslim]

29 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

reply to this question- per the most authentic hadith, did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) leave behind "quran and sunnah" or "quran and AhlulBayt"?

An honest answer will answer the OP as well.

He said both. He said I'm leaving quran and sunnah in arafat and he said I'm leaving quran and ahlul bayt in ghadeer. Now answer the question. Why is quran and sunnah left by prophet isn't enough. Why there is a need for an infallible imam at all time

[ShiaMan14]

22 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

He said both. He said I'm leaving quran and sunnah in arafat and he said I'm leaving quran and ahlul bayt in ghadeer. Now answer the question. Why is quran and sunnah left by prophet isn't enough. Why there is a need for an infallible imam at all time

and yet Sahih-e-Sitta only mention "Quran and AhlulBayt". If the Quran and Sunnah were enough, why would the Prophet also say "Quran and AhlulBayt" so you answered your own question that clearly the Quran and Sunnah are not enough.

So the Prophet did deliver a sermon at Ghadeer? All this time, I thought you were denying that the Sermon of Ghadeer happened at all. What did he say?

Quran 17:71 answers why an Imam is necessary.

[Ethics]

Why do we need Imam's because without them, the message of Islam and the holy Prophet will become tainted just like all the other religions in this world.

[Guest Muhammad]

This is not the akhlāq of Rasūlullah ﷺ and his family. I advise you all to fear Allah ﷻ, be gentle with each other, and not to speak without knowledge.

[Hasani Samnani]

9 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

He said both. He said I'm leaving quran and sunnah in arafat and he said I'm leaving quran and ahlul bayt in ghadeer. Now answer the question. Why is quran and sunnah left by prophet isn't enough. Why there is a need for an infallible imam at all time

Sunni Muslim: I know that guy. I was watching that debate before signing up. 

 

Wait a minute you know that guy, an anonymous poster with an avatar name and account.  Is he your friend? Is he kind of slow?, just asking out of curiosity.

 

You were watching the debate before signing up and yet you have the same exact questions and responses and styles, must be since you know him and maybe he is a friend, that's why your posts seem so similar. Even using the same language, interesting as all coincidences often are.

 

Anyways , luckily you have much better arguments and will not stoop to insults like some ill mannered ignorant people are prone to do, and then they deservedly get banned. We must maintain civility and manners.

 

Unfortunately for Alif, he had no cogent arguments, he lacked an foundational knowledge of his own madhab, he knew nothing of the sources of Shia hadith and guidance received from the Qur'an,  and from Rasoolullah and Our Al Immah AS.

 

As Imam Ali says , I have never argued with an ignorant fool....and won.

 

The insults were removed by moderator immediately, I am just curious how could know what I said, you must have been logged in at the very same time I was.

 

I apologized to the little kid, as my anger for our Living Imam, to whom we allow not even the suggestion of an insult,  got the better of me.

 

Fortunately since he was the most childish debater the whole shiachat family demolished and demoralized him with devastating  arguments, he was stuck to increasing his insults, since his debate skills were quite pathetic, and then he ran away.

 

After outing himself as a Salafi, as per his own words, and after the evidence filled figurative verbal beatdown he received , we all felt kind of pity for the poor little kid.

 

  15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 

 personality complex with a possible component Inferiority complex related to being on the wrong side of major theological matters....strictly clinically speaking. 

 

As a physician I am not making personal attacks , I am giving a clinical appraisal conditional to the possibility of trolling behavior.  If you're not trolling,  and you accept some of the extensively delineated proofs,  it means you are engaging in a good faith academic discussion... But if like the little child who came first,  you are adamant that not one  of the proofs are sufficient  despite multiple posters and multiple definitive sources, it would  be prima facie evidence of futile debate,  where one party accepts nothing.

 

Then best for you read Peshawwar Nights, in  which the Shia Alim uses only  their own authentic sunni sources to demolish their own arguments, with grace and skill. All of your questions have been answered in that book. 

 

If you have not read it, means that you might not understand the basics foundations of Shia philosophy and theological rhetoric.

Sorry brothers and sisters but this person is not asking this questions for edification,  he is trying to insult our Imam Ul Hujjah.

He insults respected brothers and sisters and I suspect he is the same child  little Alif , who was banned before for the same issues, or one of his confidants.

He is unfortunately very rude, abrupt, will accept none of your arguments or proofs,  @ShiaMan14has already realized this in another thread on Ghadeer.

Soomun, Bookmun and Omyun.

Feel free to engage if you have lots of time to waste arguing with someone whose only aim is degradation and insults, thanks to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),  it always seems to rebound on to him.

Makr wa Makrullah,  Inallah khaiurul Makeyreen. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Hasani Samnani

[Cool]

11 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Why is quran and sunnah left by prophet isn't enough. Why there is a need for an infallible imam at all time

Salam!

For Quran & Sunnah, there has to be the need of the existence of those personalities whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted knowledge from Himself:

بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ

29:49

And who are responsible of guarding both the Quran & the Sunnah. And who knows the meanings of mohkam & mutashabeh verses of Quran and safe guards it as well as the true Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This can be done truly by those who are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the ones for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

انهم مني و انا منهم

And Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام along with the Quran are the two weighty things which protects us from going astray and which safe guards the Quran & the Sunnah.

Wassalam!!

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Cool

[sunni muslim]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Salam!

For Quran & Sunnah, there has to be the need of the existence of those personalities whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted knowledge from Himself:

بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ

29:49

And who are responsible of guarding both the Quran & the Sunnah. And who knows the meanings of mohkam & mutashabeh verses of Quran and safe guards it as well as the true Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This can be done truly by those who are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the ones for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

انهم مني و انا منهم

And Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام along with the Quran are the two weighty things which protects us from going astray and which safe guards the Quran & the Sunnah.

Wassalam!!

 

What are the duties of imams

[Cool]

5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

What are the duties of imams

Many!! It will perhaps require more than 1000 pages to compile them all.

As for the verse quoted by me earlier, some of his (ajtf) duties have been outlined already.

Wassalam!!

[sunni muslim]

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

Many!! It will perhaps require more than 1000 pages to compile them all.

As for the verse quoted by me earlier, some of his (ajtf) duties have been outlined already.

Wassalam!!

Please mention some of those

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

responsible of (1) guarding both the Quran & the Sunnah. And who (2) knows the meanings of mohkam & mutashabeh verses of Quran and safe guards it as well as the true Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

 

16 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Please mention some of those

2 are mentioned above. And I think these are related to this thread. If you want to know more about Imamate, please visit the site www.al-islam.org, you will find there lot of text books explaining the Imamate, its role/duties as well as necessity. 

[sunni muslim]

39 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

2 are mentioned above. And I think these are related to this thread. If you want to know more about Imamate, please visit the site www.al-islam.org, you will find there lot of text books explaining the Imamate, its role/duties as well as necessity. 

Post the rloss and duties here. 

[Cool]

8 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Post the rloss and duties here.

50 minutes ago, Cool said:

please visit the site www.al-islam.org

Visit the site, copy the role & duties of Imam & paste it here if you have any question. Do it yourself, we are not here to serve you your magesty.

[sunni muslim]

Just now, Cool said:

Visit the site, copy the role & duties of Imam & paste it here if you have any question. Do it yourself, we are not here to serve you your magesty.

Again I don't have time to go on sites and copy their long arguments and refute them. Answer the question or don't waste my time

[Cool]

5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Again I don't have time to go on sites and copy their long arguments and refute them. Answer the question or don't waste my time

Don't behave like fools. You think I have the time to obey your ridiculous commands? 

And mind that, you cannot refute the concept of Imamah. Any such action from your end would be tantamount to refuting the Quran & the Sunnah. Because Quran, in its samit & natiq form, is an Imam. 

The tone you are using, is demanding to respond you in the same way. 

[sunni muslim]

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Don't behave like fools. You think I have the time to obey your ridiculous commands? 

And mind that, you cannot refute the concept of Imamah. Any such action from your end would be tantamount to refuting the Quran & the Sunnah. Because Quran, in its samit & natiq form, is an Imam. 

The tone you are using, is demanding to respond you in the same way. 

If you cannot provide the duties of your imam then don't. Don't refer me to articles of shia websites. I can do that too. I can link several websites and request you to debunk that. 

 

11 minutes ago, Cool said:

And mind that, you cannot refute the concept of Imamah. Any such action from your end would be tantamount to refuting the Quran & the Sunnah. Because Quran, in its samit & natiq form, is an Imam

I can. It's the most easiest thing to debunk. 

[Cool]

19 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

I can. It's the most easiest thing to debunk

Finally, you have given me the impression that who you are. Brother @Hasani Samnani was correct about you. 

Any such effort from your end would make you a nasibi in my sight and you would automatically become a rijs. 

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

33:33

Edited August 12, 2022 by Cool

[sunni muslim]

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Finally, you have given me the impression that who you are. Brother @Hasani Samnani was correct about you. 

Any such effort from your end would make you a nasibi in my sight and you would automatically become a rijs. 

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

33:33

If rejecting imamah makes me a nasbi then so be it. 

[Cool]

8 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

If rejecting imamah makes me a nasbi then so be it. 

Try your best.

الحمد لله الذي جعل أعدائنا من الحمقى

[ShiaMan14]

4 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

If you cannot provide the duties of your imam then don't. Don't refer me to articles of shia websites. I can do that too. I can link several websites and request you to debunk that. 

 

I can. It's the most easiest thing to debunk. 

Can you please debunk 17:71?

[Shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
[Shakir 17:72] And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way.

Who will be your Imam on The Day? If you are blind in this, then you will be blind in the hereafter...per the Quran.