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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

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sunni muslim

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1 minute ago, Abu Hadi said:
19 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 

I already responded to that faulty analysis earliers. Let me summarize again. 

- Rasoulallah was not talking to the English people in a modern parliamentary system, nor was he talking to the people of the US (which has a president, but didn't exist at the time), nor was he talking to the people of Rome or Persia, who had a set tradition of appointing kings

 

5 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

He was talking to the Arabs of Hijaz, specifically those around the area of Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. In that context, what was said by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) at Ghadir makes perfect sense and it was completely in keeping with the precedents for leadership appointment that was used by those people at that time and in that place. 

If you want to actually refute my statement, you need to bring evidence from similar appointments that were done in Hijaz, in the 7th century, in that area, and show how the manner and words used in those appointments was significantly different from the words and the manner in which Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) informed the people of the successorship of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). 

And i already refuted your point by quoting your narrations how imams appoint their successors. All your refutatiin was that prophet was both rasool and imam. And it still doesn't matter. Prophet could easily say ali is the imam after me. Or I appointed ali as his successor. If he said that clearly, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a clear hadith like ali is my successor. I challenge you to provide any historical evidence whether from Arabia or any other country that any political leader ever appointed his successor by saying whoever I'm moula so and so is his maula. 

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1 minute ago, sunni muslim said:

 

And i already refuted your point by quoting your narrations how imams appoint their successors. All your refutatiin was that prophet was both rasool and imam. And it still doesn't matter. Prophet could easily say ali is the imam after me. Or I appointed ali as his successor. If he said that clearly, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a clear hadith like ali is my successor. I challenge you to provide any historical evidence whether from Arabia or any other country that any political leader ever appointed his successor by saying whoever I'm moula so and so is his maula. 

You never told me, what word would you prefer he used. The word 'successor' is an English word, so he couldn't have used that one. Which Arabic word would you prefer ? 

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1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

I challenge you to provide any historical evidence whether from Arabia or any other country that any political leader

قال الصديق رضي الله عنه وأرضاه: لقد علمت يا سعد! أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال وأنت قاعد: (قريش ولاة هذا الأمر، فبر الناس تبع لبرهم، وفاجر الناس تبع لفاجرهم)، وهذا قانون وضعه صلى الله عليه وسلم (قريش ولاة هذا الأمر)

See ولاة here and understand مولاه of ghadir e khum. 

وَلاهُ

ـِ ( يَلِيه ) وَلْياً: دنا منه وقرب.

( وَلِيَهُ ) ـِ ( يَلِيهِ ) وَلْياً: وَلاه. وـ الشيء، وعليه، وِلاية: ملك أمره وقام به. وـ فلاناً، وعليه: نصره. وـ فلاناً: أحبَّه. وـ البلد: تسلَّط عليه. فهو والٍ. ( ج ) وُلاة. والمفعول: مَوْلِيّ عليه.

And then understand the phrase:

انت ولي كل مومن من بعدي

The hadith quoted by Abu Bakr to Sa'ad for reminding him that this امر (i.e., leadership/governance) belongs to Quraish is itself a proof that they all have complete understanding of the word مولاه. 

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There are sunni sources that specifically say that Rasullulah (sawas) appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, not just the event at Ghadir Khum, period. Go look at the story about when the verse of "warn thy kin" was revealed and he specifically said Imam Ali (عليه السلام) shall be my successor. But many of you continue to beat around the bush.

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Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah al Ansari,  the well known hadith al qudsi.... the renowned Hadith al Kisaa is very very clear. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directd his blessings and protection on the AhlulBayt.

Then Rasoolullah clearly delineating his choice of Imam Ali as a Khalifa and Wasee  clearly and unequivocally. This hadith using then Bahth Al Firsiti method in hadith science of validation....is quite indisputable....it has been tramitted by many different transmitters.

But let me guess....we will be able to find one gentleman who despite a preponderance of the evidence against his case, he will still try to dispute such  hadith.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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21 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Khalifa

Khalifa is not a standalone word. It needs to be understood in context. If the Prophet would have said 'Ali is the Kalifa', then that was it, I think this would have been less clear than what was actually said. For the following reasons

1. We are talking about a time in Islamic History when the Institution of Caliphate had not been established. People were familiar with the term as it is used in the Holy Quran, and also how it is used in the Arabic language, but this word can have a variety of meanings, just like Maula. 

Khalifa or Khalifah (Arabic: خليفة) is a name or title which means "successor", "ruler" or "leader". It most commonly refers to the leader of a Caliphate, but is also used as a title among various Islamic religious groups and others. Khalifa is sometimes also pronounced as "kalifa". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalifa#:~:text=Khalifa or Khalifah (Arabic%3A خليفة,also pronounced as "kalifa".

Also, if you consult a reputable Arabic / English Dictionary like this one, 

http://www.tyndalearchive.com/TABS/Lane/

You will see that the verb form (khaf - lam - fa) has various derived forms. 

You understand the main meaning of this word to be 'successor after the Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) because of your perspective. You are living at a time long after Ghadeer, when the institution of Caliphate has long been established and the precedent has been set. To understand the word, how those at Ghadir understand it, you need to place yourself in their position. They knew Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and before him the leaders of their various tribes that they were from. That's all they knew. Those leaders took various titles, and some probably used the title of Khalifa, but some used other titles also. There was no such a thing at that time as the 'Caliphate of Abu Bakr', the 'Caliphate of Umar', etc. This time was before those took place. 

Here is the main point, which I have been trying to make. 

AT THE TIME OF GHADEER, THERE WASN'T A STANDALONE, ONE WORD IN ARABIC THAT ENCOMPASSED THE MODERN CONCEPT OF CALIPHATE 

That is why Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) referred to Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as his Caliph, his Wasi, Maula, like Haron is to Musa, the "Gate" to the City of Knowledge, etc. All these are variations on the same theme, and using these various phrases at different times was meant to build up the concept of Imamate in the minds of the Ummah. The title Caliph is only referring to temporal power and authority, whereas we believe the position of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) was more comprehensive than that. 

So if I was at Ghadeer, I would have gotten a general sense of the word 'Khalifa' as leader, but I also would have got the same meaning from the word 'Maula' as it was used in that context. In fact, I think in this context, Maula is actually more clear, and I think many brothers and sisters here would agree with me on that point, I also have heard many of my Sunni brothers agreeing with this. You might not, but many do. 

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2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

So if I was at Ghadeer, I would have gotten a general sense of the word 'Khalifa' as leader, but I also would have got the same meaning from the word 'Maula' as it was used in that context

Excellent points as always Brother Abu Hadi.

But if you were at Ghadeer, you would have be to give Bayaah to Imam Ali, recognizing his successorship and his obvious worth.

There are those among us, those that insist more could have been done to ensure Imam Ali's position after the prophet.

He called 70,000 people to give bayah Imam Ali, so they could not say later we never heard anything about this event.....and despite all this and the number of statements made by Rasoolullah,  they still did whatever to gain power and money and prestige. 

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14 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Khalifa

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“I am the chief of the prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al-Mahdi.”

(Source: Fara’id al-Simtayn, (by Sunni scholar Ibrahim ibn Muhammad ibn Himaway al-Juwayni), Beirut 1978, p. 160)

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Certainly my caliphs and my legatees and the Proofs of Allah upon His creatures after me are twelve. The first of them is my brother and the last of them is my [grand]son.”

He was asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who is your brother?”

He said, “Ali ibn Abi Talib.”

(Source: Fara’id al-Simtayn, Beirut 1978, p. 160)

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We do a dis-service at times when we only say, "Man Kanto mawla fa haza Ali-un-mawla".

In the prior statement, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) actually describes the meaning and context of the word mawla thereby leaving no doubt about what he meant about Ali (عليه السلام).

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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22 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

 

But let me guess....we will be able to find one gentleman who despite a preponderance of the evidence against his case, he will still try to dispute such  hadith.

I think it will take a huge amount of fake research since the Hadith al Kisa is Mutawatir, to try to disprove it,  will require finding some of the well known  paid hadith narrators. 

More than 60 major sunni authors have labeled it as a true hadith.

But just like Ghadeer, their versions always seem to cut out the speech of  Rasoolullah, the tent being set up for Bayah, the congratulations and felicitations offered by all the companions for three straight days.

The other issue is that like most of our sunni brother, sadly they always get the abbreviated versions, their narrators always seem to remove the part that is clear and important to determine Rasoolullah's successor....ironic isn't it.

It's almost like there was a Official Government policy to erase these events from the history books.

However,  the truth is still revealed to the true believers.

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18 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

We do a dis-service at times when we only say, "Man Kanto mawla fa haza Ali-un-mawla".

In the prior statement, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) actually describes the meaning and context of the word mawla thereby leaving no doubt about what he meant about Ali (عليه السلام).

 

Ahsant.

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said: ‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying:

Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm:

“Isn`t it Allah Who is closer (awla [from the same root as 'mawla']) to the believers?”

They said: "Yes."

He said: "O Allah, if I am a person's mawla then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, take as friends those who take him as a friend, and take as enemies those who take him as an enemy.”

A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.`
A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

(SUNNI SOURCE: Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952, Book 5: Musnad 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib. GRADE: SAHIH because of corroborating evidence] (Darussalam))
https://sunnah.com/ahmad:950

There. Allah isn't our friend, He's our master. So now that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave us context of the word 'mawla', we know that when he said 'man kunto mawla fahaaza aliyyun mawlah', the translation is 'of whoever I am the master, Ali is the master'.

It's really not that hard to figure out. 

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