Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

He said for himself & for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) the word which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has used for Himself i.e., Mowla

وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

22:78

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our Mowla because of the system of Wilayah. Ali (عليه السلام) is our mowla because of the system of Wilayah. 

But how can Sunni comprehend these verses!!! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

He also doesn't have to. The prophet can say ali is your ruler after me, listen and obey him. As simple as that

That's exactly what he said. 

Listen to the words (I'm doing the translation here)

The Prophet said, 'Do I not have greater right over you than you have over yourselves'

They answered 'Yes'. 

What does that mean ? Do you love yourself, Do you obey yourself, Do you value yourself ? Are you are ruler over yourself ? 

Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) is saying I have more right than that over you. They answered yes. After that, then he said, 

'Of whosoever I am his Maula (the one who has rights over you), Ali is his Maula'. 

There is nothing more clear than that. 

tbh, the more times I read the speech of Ghadir, the more awestruck and impressed I am by the choice of words and the genius of the phrases used. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I didn't made any statement. The narration that he quoted itself says that but as usual he doesn't even know what he is quoting.

 Sure

We read in Dala’il al-Nubuwwah li-Abu Nu`aym in an authentic report:

[Al-Zuhri from `Abdullah bin Ka`b bin Malik who said: Ka`b was the first to recognize the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after the defeat of the Muslims, and after the rumors spread that Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got killed. Ka`b said: I recognized his eyes radiating from under the battle helmet, so I called in my loudest voice: “O Muslims, I bear good news; this is Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).” When they realized this they carried him to the narrow roads (for safety), with him was Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Ali, Talhah, al-Zubayr, al-Harith bin al-Simah and a group of Muslims. When he was lying in the road, Ubay bin Khalaf tracked him saying: “O Muhammad, may I perish if I don’t make you perish.” We said: “O Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) should one of us go to him and face him?” He replied: “Leave him (to me).” Then he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) leaned down and grabbed a spear from al-Harith and charged towards ibn Khalaf with such a force that we all fell back from around him like the hairs on the back of a camel fly, the spear struck ibn Khalaf sending him flying off of his horse.]

It was also reported:

[Ibn `Abbas said: Sa`d bin `Ubadah told me: A group from the companions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave him an oath of allegiance until death on the day of Uhud when the Muslims were defeated, so they were patient and they persevered and protected him with their bodies, the man among them would say: “May my self be sacrificed for yours O Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). May my face be a protection for yours O RasulAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).” Until several of them died and from these men were Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Ali, al-Zubayr, Talhah, Sa`d, Sahl bin Hunayf, ibn abi al-Aqlah, al-Harith bin al-Simah, abu Dujanah and al-Habbab bin alMundhir. Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tried climbing a large rock but could not because he carried two heavy armors, so Talhah bin `Ubaydullah carried him and supported him until he climbed it so he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Talhah has deserved it (meaning Jannah).”

True, talha, zubayr and sad bin abi waqqas also defended the prophet, talha's left hand was paralysed in that battle. 

 

I never slandered him. It was reply to you shiites, who taunt the companions who fled from the battlefield, but guess what, ammar also fled and he was not amongst the 13 companions who stayed with the prophet. If you say uthman was a coward, betrayer of the prophet, then the same allegation would be applied to ammar.

 

I already did. I provided the chain and if you can't read then that's not my problem. 

 

 

I can. 

 

Sorry it is not khabr ul ahad. It is narrated by jundub, abu saeed khudri, anas bin malik, abdullah bin masood. And it does not contain weak narrators as I will prove. 

 

Completely irrelevant. 

 

Sorry he is not abi shayba, he is ibn abi shaybah. And he is one of the most trustworthy narrators. 

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : متقن حافظ دين، ممن كتب وجمع وصنف وذاكر، وكان أحفظ أهل زمانه للمقاطيع

أبو حفص عمر بن شاهين : صدوق

أبو زرعة الرازي : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

أحمد بن حميد الجهمي : أحفظ أهل الكوفة

أحمد بن حنبل : صدوق وهو أحب إلى من عثمان

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : كوفي ثقة وكان حافظا للحديث

ابن أبي حاتم الرازي : كوفى ثقة، روى عن شريك وأبي الأحوص وعباد وهشيم

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ صاحب تصانيف

الخطيب البغدادي : كان متقنا حافظا مكثرا صنف المسند والاحكام والتفسير

الذهبي : سيد الحفاظ، إليه المنتهى في الثقة

القاسم بن سلام الهروي : ربانيو الحديث أربعة ذكره منهم، ومرة: انتهى الحديث إلي أربعة إلي: أبي بكر بن أبي شيبة، وأحمد بن حنبل، ويحيى بن معين، وعلي ابن المديني، فأبو بكر أسردهم له وأحسنهم وضعا لكتاب، وأحمد أفقهم فيه، ويحيى أجمعهم له، وعلي أعلمهم به

جعفر بن محمد الفريابي : سألت محمد بن نمير عن بني أبي شيبه فقال فيهم قولا لم أحب أن أذكره

صالح بن محمد جزرة : أحفظ من أدركنا عند المذاكرة

عبد الباقي بن قانع البغدادي : ثقة ثبت

عبد الرحمن بن يوسف بن خراش : ثقة

عبدان بن أحمد الأهوازي : كان يقعد عند الاسطوانة كثير كلهم سكوت الا أبو بكر فانه يهدر

عمرو بن علي الفلاس : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

قتيبة بن سعيد : كتبت عنه كل شىء

يحيى بن عبد الحميد الحماني : أولاد ابن أبي شيبة من أهل العلم كانوا يزاحموننا عند كل محدث

يحيى بن معين : الكوفة خراب إلا ابني أبي شيبة: أبو بكر وعثمان، ومرة: أبو بكر عندنا صدوق، ولو ادعى السماع من أجل من شريك لكان مصدقا فيه

يعقوب بن شيبة السدوسي : كان فيه تهاون بالحديث، لم يكن يفصل هذه الأشياء يعني الألفاظ

He is thiqa. 

Sorry, ishaq bin ibrahim here is ishaq bin rahawayh, one of the greatest trustworthy imams. 

أبو حاتم الرازي : العجب من إتقانه وسلامته من الغلط مع ما رزق من الحفظ وقال مرة: إمام من أئمة المسلمين

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان من سادات أهل زمانه فقها وعلما وحفظا

أبو دواد السجستاني : تغير قبل أن يموت بخمسة أشهر

أبو زرعة الرازي : ما رؤي أحفظ من إسحاق

أبو يحيى محمد بن يحيى الشعراني : ما رأيت بيد إسحاق كتابا قط وما كان يحدث إلا حفظا

أحمد بن حنبل : مثل إسحاق يسأل عنه؟ إسحاق عندنا إمام من أئمة المسلمين ، ومرة : إذا حدثك أبو يعقوب أمير المؤمنين فتمسك به

أحمد بن سعيد بن إبراهيم : لو كان الثوري وابن عيينة والحمادان في الحياة لاحتاجوا إليه

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : أحد الأئمة، ومرة: ثقة مأمون

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ مجتهد قرين أحمد بن حنبل

الذهبي : الإمام عالم خراسان

المزي : أحد أئمة المسلمين وعلماء الدين اجتمع له الحديث والفقه والحفظ والصدق والورع والزهد

زكريا بن داود الخفاف : أملى علينا أحد عشر ألف حديث من حفظه، ثم قرأها فلم يزد حرفا ولا نقصه

سعيد بن ذؤيب المروزي : ما أعلم علي وجه الأرض مثل إسحاق

عبد اللطيف بن إبراهيم بن الكيال الشافعي : إمام من أعلام الأئمة

قتيبة بن سعيد : إمام

محمد بن أسلم الطوسي : ما أعلم أحدا كان أخشي لله من إسحاق وكان أعلم الناس ولو كان سفيان الثوري في الحياة لاحتاج إلى إسحاق

محمد بن إسحاق بن خزيمة : والله لو أن إسحاق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي كان في التابعين لأقروا له بحفظه وعلمه وفقهه

وهب بن جرير البصري : أحى السنة بأرض المشرق

Sorry zakariya bin adiy is also thiqa 

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة رجل صالح

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة جليل يحفظ

ابن زبر الربعي : روى له، ونقل عن عبد الحمن بن مرزوق قوله: وما كتبت عن أحد أفضل منه

الذهبي : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

المنذر بن شاذان : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

عبد الرحمن بن يوسف بن خراش : ثقة جليل ورع

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : صالح ثقة صدوق

يحيى بن معين : لا بأس به

Sorry ubaydullah bin amr her is ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

أبو بكر البيهقي : ثقة

أبو حاتم الرازي : صالح الحديث، ثقة صدوق، لا أعرف له حديثا منكرا

أبو حفص عمر بن شاهين : ثقة

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه ربما وهم

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق ربما وهم، ومرة: كان ثقة كثير الحديث، وربما أخطأ، وكان أحفظ من روى عن عبد الكريم الجزري

محمد بن عبد الله بن نمير : ثقة

مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة، وقوله ربما وهم، اقتبسها من ابن سعد، وقد انفرد بها، فلا يعتد لها

يحيى بن معين : ثقة

Nope, both are authentic. And for your kind information, I never weakened hadith ghadeer. 

Provide the chain for your claims. And also the arabic quote. 

 

Doesn't matter, wahabis, deobandis, and barelvis all deny that ghadeer means appointment. 

 

Your 'refutation' was terrible. You provided ni evidence from scholars of jarh wa tadil, who weakened any of the narrators. While I provided statements of scholars who made tawtheeq of the narrators in the chain. So try again. 

 

First learn to read, and then try to debunk genius. Jundub in this narration is jundub bin abdullah not samura bin jundub. 

I have provided Chain from sunnah.com which there is no alternate chain for your fabricated hadith also it's clearly an Ahad hadith which also I have said you don't belive to authencity of narrators because some of them have narrated hadith of Ghadeer which you yourself  clearly have labeled ally narrator of Ghadeer as untrustworthy & non Thiqa also majority of narrators in chain of your fabricated hadith have been enemies of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which they have fabricated merits for three caliphs by order of cursed Muawiah & Ummayids & Abbasid kings which one of major factors for calling a sunni narrator in Your books is enmity with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & forging & fabricating hadiths in favor of threee caliphs  by order of cursed Ummayids & Abbasids.

your hadiths about protecting prophet Muhammad (pbu) by these person have no reliable chain which all of them have been forged by cursed Ummayids & Abbasids  becaus all of them have joined to protectors after Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) which no one except  Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام)  remained with prohet Muammad (pbu) after his injury which "abu Dujanah" (رضي الله عنه) & Talha & Zubair which story Abi waqas has been told just by sunni sources which his presence in defending prophet is controversial have joined to protectors after  Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) which without daoubt Abubakr , Umar & Uthman have ran away from battlefield so therfore clearly they have not been between protectors of prophet .

 

You clearly  have insulted to great companion Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) because he has been a loyal companion of both of prophet Muhammd (pbu) &  Amir Al muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so therfore their enemies likewise cursed  Muawiyah & rest of Ummayids & Nasibis hate Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) because his martyrdom in battle of Siffrin has shown that cursed Muawiyah has been enemy of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & mir Al muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so therefore Takfir terrorist Wahabists are insulting him in similar fashion which cursed Muawiyah  has insulted him which according sunni belief insulting to any companion likewise Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) is  equivalent to Kufr & hypocrisy which you can't judge him about his action because judging actions of comapanions has been banned by all 4 sunni school of thoughts so therefore your abusive word about him is equivalent to Kufr (dsibelief) & hypocrisy .

our Master Muhammad (s) said:

The unjust group will kill Ammar.

 

Ammar (May Allah be pleased with him) drank the cup of yoghurt. Then he continued fighting till he fell over the ground and became a martyr.

Mu'awiyah was about to fly because of happiness. Imam Ali (a) was full of sadness and sorrow. During those moments all Muslims knew the unjust group.

Quote

The Prophet (s) had told 'Ammar that he would be martyred by a group of rebels. He was over 90 years old when he fought in the Battle of Siffin and was martyred by the army of Mu'awiya.

 

Quote

Demolishion of His Tomb

On 21 Ramadan 1434 AH (28 July 2013), Takfiri groups in Syria who had taken control of Raqqa Province, demolished the tomb of 'Ammar b. Yasir and Uways al-Qarani.[27]

 

Quote

Ibn 'Abd al-Barr has quoted from Anas b. Malik that the Prophet said, "The Paradise is very anxious to embrace 'Ali, 'Ammar, Salman, and Bilal."[8]

 Ibn ʿAbd al-Barr, al-Istīʿāb, vol. 3, p. 229.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ammar_b._Yasir

Quote

The Trial

The Muslims were in a fix. They did not distinguish right from wrong. Their guide was Ammar because our Master Muhammad (s) said:

The unjust group will kill Ammar.

Amru bin al-Ass deceived the people of Sham when he said to them:

Be patient! Ammar will come to your front!

The days of the war passed, but Ammar was fighting at the front of right. He was always standing by Ali.

One day, Ammar and a believing group launched an attack. Ammar was fighting bravely. He remembered the days when he fought beside our Master Muhammad (s) . He remembered the Battles of Badr, Uhud and the other Muslims battles.

Though Ammar was fasting, he went on fighting. When the sun set, Ammar asked some water because he was thirsty. A fighter brought him a cup full of yogurt. Ammar smiled. Then he cheerfully said:

Tonight, I may die a martyr.

Some fighters asked him about the secret. He said:

My dear Allah's Apostle (a) has told me:

The unjust group will kill you. And your final food in this world will be a cup of yogurt.

Ammar (May Allah be pleased with him) drank the cup of yoghurt. Then he continued fighting till he fell over the ground and became a martyr.

Mu'awiyah was about to fly because of happiness. Imam Ali (a) was full of sadness and sorrow. During those moments all Muslims knew the unjust group.

Some soldiers in Mu'awiyah's Army were waiting for Ammar's coming to their front. But they saw him fighting bravely beside Imam Ali (a) till he became a martyr. So, they sneered at Amru bin al-Ass' claim. In the meantime, they took advantage of the dark and began coming to join the Imam's Army. They knew that it was the front of right.

The End

Ammar's martyrdom sounded at both fronts. Imam Ali's Army was in high spirits, but Mu'awiyah's Army was in low spirits.

At that night, the Imam's Army launched a wide attack against Mu'awiyah's Army. The Imam's Army was about to win victory. But Amru bin al-Ass created a new trick. He ordered the army of Sham to raise the Koran. They were demanding the Imam's Army to turn to Allah's Book.

The fights stopped. Both armies withdrew from the Valley of Siffeen. The martyrs' bodies stayed on the battlefield. The body of Ammar, aged ninety six, stayed there too.

Nowadays, when the Muslims visit that area, they can see the big shrine of that great companion, who spent all his life in striving for Islam. When Ammar became a martyr, the Muslims knew the right front during that bitter war

https://www.al-islam.org/ammar-bin-yasir-kamal-al-sayyid/ammar-bin-yasir

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
17 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It doesn't matter if we are talking about 7 th century hijaz. No one appoints their successor like this. Even your imams never appointed like this. They appointed clearly by saying this is the imam after me. 

They have just repeated divine narrations from holy prophet which any Imam has introduced next Imam after him according to divine command ehich they have received from prophet Muhammad (pbu) which prophet muhammad (pbu0 has received it from Allah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
17 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Provide the chain for your claims. And also the arabic quote. 

this has been mentioned in histrory book so it has no chain likewise hadiths also I have provided enough links anyway you refrain from accepting truth by misusing asking for chain .

 

17 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Doesn't matter, wahabis, deobandis, and barelvis all deny that ghadeer means appointment. 

You have proven that you have Wahabi although you have called yourself a Hanafi Muslim.

 

17 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry he is not abi shayba, he is ibn abi shaybah. And he is one of the most trustworthy narrators. 

Sorry in your previous posts you have called all of these narrators as weak & non Thiqa because of narrating Ghadeer hadith so you must accept just one of your calims which they have been Thiqa or not which certainly you have double standars which you call every narrator of Ghadeer as non reliable then in opposition to your claim you call anyone whiich have praised three caliph as Thiqa.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
14 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

That's exactly what he said. 

Listen to the words (I'm doing the translation here)

The Prophet said, 'Do I not have greater right over you than you have over yourselves'

They answered 'Yes'. 

What does that mean ? Do you love yourself, Do you obey yourself, Do you value yourself ? Are you are ruler over yourself ? 

Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) is saying I have more right than that over you. They answered yes. After that, then he said, 

'Of whosoever I am his Maula (the one who has rights over you), Ali is his Maula'. 

There is nothing more clear than that.

Already debunked here. 

On 8/20/2022 at 6:50 PM, sunni muslim said:

This explanation is nonsense. Imagine a president of a country saying to his people, o people am I not your president, they all say yes, then he say whoever I'm president so and so is his president. Absolutely ridiculous. People would laugh at that president for saying that. One government doesn't have two presidents at the same time. Prophet was the only leader at that time. It may be difficult for you to understand so let's take this example, imagine khamenai saying, whoever I'm supreme leader so and so is his supreme leader. Wow, makes so much sense. :hahaha:

 

16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

tbh, the more times I read the speech of Ghadir, the more awestruck and impressed I am by the choice of words and the genius of the phrases used

And to be honest. As much I read the ghadeer, my faith became stronger, that i don't base my entire religion on such a vague hadeeth. 

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I have provided Chain from sunnah.com which there is no alternate chain for your fabricated hadith also it's clearly an Ahad hadith

Sorry to break your heart, the hadith is authentic, and it is narrated by bothe bukhari and muslim, all the ' proofs that you provided fell like  a pack of cards. You provided no evidence from scholars of rijal that so and so narrator is weak or a liar. And that narration have multiple chainschains like these. 

حَدَّثَنَا مُسْلِمُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنَا وُهَيْبٌ، حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ وَلَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا مِنْ أُمَّتِي خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ، أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَلَكِنْ أَخِي وَصَاحِبِي ‏

حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، قَالَ كَتَبَ أَهْلُ الْكُوفَةِ إِلَى ابْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ فِي الْجَدِّ‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَمَّا الَّذِي قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا مِنْ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُهُ ‏"‏‏.‏ أَنْزَلَهُ أَبًا يَعْنِي أَبَا بَكْرٍ‏

So your claim that this hadith doesn't have an alternative chain is completely ridiculous.  It has more than three authentic chains from 3 different companions. Try again. 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

which also I have said you don't belive to authencity of narrators because some of them have narrated hadith of Ghadeer which you yourself  clearly have labeled ally narrator of Ghadeer as untrustworthy & non Thiqa also majority of narrators in chain of your fabricated hadith

Stop lying. I never said that any narrator who narrated the hadith ghadeer are weak and liars. 

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

enemies of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which they have fabricated merits for three caliphs by order of cursed Muawiah & Ummayids & Abbasid kings which one of major factors for calling a sunni narrator in Your books is enmity with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & forging & fabricating hadiths in favor of threee caliphs  by order of cursed Ummayids & Abbasids

There is no proof of that. It is like a kharji claiming that narrations in virtues of ali and his family are fabricated by the shia. If kharjis and nasbis are wrong in claiming that about ali then you are too. 

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

your hadiths about protecting prophet Muhammad (pbu) by these person have no reliable chain which all of them have been forged by cursed Ummayids & Abbasids  becaus all of them have joined to protectors after Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) which no one except  Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام)  remained with prohet Muammad (pbu) after his injury which "abu Dujanah" (رضي الله عنه) & Talha & Zubair which story Abi waqas has been told just by sunni sources which his presence in defending prophet is controversial have joined to protectors after  Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) which without daoubt Abubakr , Umar & Uthman have ran away from battlefield so therfore clearly they have not been between protectors of prophet

Assumptions. Prove the hadith is weak. If you can't, then don't waste my time. 

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You clearly  have insulted to great companion Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) because he has been a loyal companion of both of prophet Muhammd (pbu) &  Amir Al muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so therfore their enemies likewise cursed  Muawiyah & rest of Ummayids & Nasibis hate Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) because his martyrdom in battle of Siffrin has shown that cursed Muawiyah has been enemy of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & mir Al muminin Imam Ali (عليه

Again, I never insulted ammar. I said that in reply of you Shiites who will always boast about how companions fled from the battlefied, while ammar was also one of those who fled. If you had to say anything bad about those companions who fled, then that bad thing will also apply to ammar. Case closed. 

 

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this has been mentioned in histrory book so it has no chain likewise hadiths also I have provided enough links anyway you refrain from accepting truth by misusing asking for chain

Sorry sir. History books does have chains of narrations. Provide one or don't waste my time. 

 

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You have proven that you have Wahabi although you have called yourself a Hanafi Muslim

I didn't. Hanafis are much more harsh against the Shiites than the salafis. Sunnis whether he is hanafi shafii maliki Or whatever, don't believe that ali is appointed successor of prophet, if you can't digest that, then that's not my problem. 

 

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Sorry in your previous posts you have called all of these narrators as weak & non Thiqa because of narrating Ghadeer hadith so you must accept just one of your calims which they have been Thiqa or not which certainly you have double standars which you call every narrator of Ghadeer as non reliable then in opposition to your claim you call anyone whiich have praised three caliph as Thiqa.

I never said that. Stop lying. I said ali bin zaid is weak not anyone who narrated the hadith of ghadeer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Sunni Muslim said:

Your 12 th one has also no connection with bravery, rather he is afraid to get killed, despite having millions of followers, an entire country which is ruled by shias. What a brave man

At this point I am boycotting this example of Supreme jahilya on par with Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.

 

I said that in reply to that guy who said the same thing about abu bakr umar and usman. If that is an insult, then the guy I was replying to insulted sunni caliphs as well which is against this sites rules. 

Ansd that's not even an insult. It is mentioned in shia narrations 

Allamah al-Majlisi (d. 1111 H) copies:

إكمال الدين: ماجيلويه، عن عمه، عن البرقي، عن أيوب بن نوح، عن صفوان عن ابن بكير، عن زرارة، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: للغلام غيبة قبل قيامه، قلت:ولم؟ قال: يخاف على نفسه الذبح.

Ikmal al-Din: Majiluyah – his uncle – al-Barqi – Ayub b. Nuh – Safwan – Ibn Bukayr – Zurarah:

Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said: “The boy will have a disappearance (ghaybah) before his rise.” I said, “And for what reason?” He said, “He will fear his being slaughtered.”22

The hadith has a mu’tabar (reliable) chain, according to Ayatullah al-Muhsini.23 Here, the Twelfth Imam is referred to as “the boy” by his sixth ancestor. This reveals that the Imam was predicted to become invisible very early, as a child. Moreover, his disappearance is of two stages. This is why it is sometimes also called the two ghaybahs. However, there was no time, since he first disappeared, that he was ever visible to the general public.

Al-Majlisi again records:

إكمال الدين: العطار، عن سعد، عن ابن عيسى، عن خالد بن نجيح، عن زرارة قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: إن للقائم غيبة قبل أن يقوم قلت: ولم؟ قال: يخاف وأومأ بيده إلى بطنه.

Ikmal al-Din: al-‘Aṭṭar – Sa’d – Ibn ‘Isa – Khalid b. Najih – Zurarah:

I heard Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, saying: “Verily, there shall be a disappearance for the Qaim before he rises.” I said, “And for what reason?” He said, “He will fear” and he gestured with his hand towards his stomach.24

Then, he cited six other chains for this hadith25, and Ayatullah al-Muhsini declares its sanad to be mu’tabar (reliable).26 This one probably refers to poisoning. The Imam would be killed violently or could get poisoned if he appeared before the right time.

Shaykh al-Kulayni (d. 329 H) too reports:

وبهذا الاسناد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أبيه محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن بكير، عن زرارة قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: إن للقائم غيبة قبل أن يقوم، إنه يخاف - وأومأ بيده إلى بطنه - يعني القتل.

And with this chain – Ahmad b. Muhammad – his father, Muhammad b. ‘Isa – Ibn Bukayr – Zurarah:

I heard Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, saying:

“Verily, there shall be a disappearance for the Qaim before he rises. He will fear” - and he gestured with his hand towards his stomach – meaning (he will fear) being killed.27

Al-Majlisi comments:

موثق كالصحيح

Muwaththaq ka al-Sahih28

 

Edited by Mahdavist
Quoted post has been removed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

(Abu Bakr and Umar had no connection with valor and bravery. In such a condition, neither Abu Bakr nor Umar could be called the bravest ones. They did not perform any feat during the lifetime of the Prophet, which can make them eligible to be called the bravest ones. Leave alone being the bravest ones, how can a person like Ali ((عليه السلام).), who never fled from the battlefield and continued to often rout the enemies of Islam, should be considered inferior to those who always bolted from battles and did not even scratch the enemy of Islam.) 

This was the original comment I was referring to. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
10 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما

both of cahins are void so your favorite hadith is just a fabrication by Nasibis & rest of  enemies of Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

عِكْرِمَةَ (Ikrima) has been a liar & has inclination towar Khawarij also his contemporaries refrained from narrating from him because his too much lying about Ibn Abbas

 

Quote

Tafsir of Akramah from an Analytical Outlook

نویسنده [English]

  • Sayyed Mahdi Husayni Elmi

چکیده [English]

Apart from Ali((عليه السلام)) who enjoys a high status in tafsir of the Qur'an, his devoted disciple-Ibn Abbass-has got a lofty place in interpretation, and is also known as "Tarjuman al-Qur'an". Following Ibn Abbass, his popular disciple, Akramah, also known as Mawla Ibn Abbass, is among the most important of the Tabi'an (successors) interprters. Examining his biography and personality as well as his ideological tendency, the artcile delves into viewpoints of his contemporaries and biographers, and the fault-findings brought up against him. Then, it takes into consideration the socio-political atmosphere of Akramah's era, and a brief history of tafsir from the beginning to his time. It goes on to enumerate the features of Tabi'an's tafsir - including Akramah himself - and analyzes his resources for tafsir through a statistical analysis of exegetical narrations he has left behind. In the end, the article reminds outstanding feature of his Tafsir, numbering 15 points.

 

Quote

Ikrima  - Molay Ibn Abbas مولى ابن عباس - (25-105 A.H.) is one of the commentators of Tabiin. The author after mentioning his life history, including joining the Tabiin group, his travels and receiving awards, and the final period of his life, to the sheikhs, teachers and students of Ikrima. He mentioned and pointed out the accusations of Regalian about his character, especially being a liar and lying about Ibn Abbas, his inclination towards the Khawarij religion, contemporaries' displeasure with Ikrimah, Malik not narrating from Ikrimah.

https://jqr.isca.ac.ir/article_22361.html

10 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ

He is another great liar which he has been appointed by ibn Zubair as his speciall judge & muezzin which everybody knows that Ibn zubair & his comrades have been staunch enemies of Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which duty of أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ has been fabrication of hadith in favor of three caliphs based on great enmity of Ibn Zubair & him with Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which even Asqalani in his book "تهذيب التهذيب" has discredited عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ.

Quote

Ibn Abi Malikeh in the speech of scholars of Rijal

His name is Abd Allah bin Ubaid Allah, and the fact that he was Ibn Zubair's judge and his special muezzin is enough to discredit him (1).
Now we will refer to the hadith once again and if necessary, we will look at the narrators of its other traditions.
In the narrations of Ibn Sa'd and the narrations that Ibn Hajar narrated from him in the book "Al-Isabah", there is Waki' Ibn Jarrah, whose biography we described.

1) تهذيب التهذيب: 5 / 272

Tahzib at-tahzib - Aḥmad ibn ʻAlī Ibn Ḥajar al-ʻAsqalānī  v 5, p 272 (5/272)

http://www.al-milani.com/farsi/library/lib-pg.php?booid=3&mid=7&pgid=110

 

Quote

3- Tendency to Shi'ism of Waki
[edit]

Waki, like many Kufis, has been called inclined to Shi'ism. Ali Bin Madini says about him: «فیه تشیع قلیل».. [7] The author of Al-Zuhd, Waki , considers this small amount of tendency of Shi'ism  to be the reason for a book that Waki had written on the Manaqib of the Sahaba, and in that Manaqib, he had put Ali (عليه السلام) ahead of Uthman. He considerd this to be the religion of the people of Kufa. [8] However, his jurisprudence was based on that of Abu Hanifa, and like him, he considered eating Nabidz as halal and drank it. [9][10]

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/وکیع_بن_جراح

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

I didn't made any statement. The narration that he quoted itself says that but as usual he doesn't even know what he is quoting.

 Sure

We read in Dala’il al-Nubuwwah li-Abu Nu`aym in an authentic report:

[Al-Zuhri from `Abdullah bin Ka`b bin Malik who said: Ka`b was the first to recognize the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after the defeat of the Muslims, and after the rumors spread that Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got killed. Ka`b said: I recognized his eyes radiating from under the battle helmet, so I called in my loudest voice: “O Muslims, I bear good news; this is Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).” When they realized this they carried him to the narrow roads (for safety), with him was Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Ali, Talhah, al-Zubayr, al-Harith bin al-Simah and a group of Muslims. When he was lying in the road, Ubay bin Khalaf tracked him saying: “O Muhammad, may I perish if I don’t make you perish.” We said: “O Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) should one of us go to him and face him?” He replied: “Leave him (to me).” Then he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) leaned down and grabbed a spear from al-Harith and charged towards ibn Khalaf with such a force that we all fell back from around him like the hairs on the back of a camel fly, the spear struck ibn Khalaf sending him flying off of his horse.]

It was also reported:

[Ibn `Abbas said: Sa`d bin `Ubadah told me: A group from the companions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave him an oath of allegiance until death on the day of Uhud when the Muslims were defeated, so they were patient and they persevered and protected him with their bodies, the man among them would say: “May my self be sacrificed for yours O Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). May my face be a protection for yours O RasulAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).” Until several of them died and from these men were Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Ali, al-Zubayr, Talhah, Sa`d, Sahl bin Hunayf, ibn abi al-Aqlah, al-Harith bin al-Simah, abu Dujanah and al-Habbab bin alMundhir. Rasul-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tried climbing a large rock but could not because he carried two heavy armors, so Talhah bin `Ubaydullah carried him and supported him until he climbed it so he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Talhah has deserved it (meaning Jannah).”

True, talha, zubayr and sad bin abi waqqas also defended the prophet, talha's left hand was paralysed in that battle. 

 

I never slandered him. It was reply to you shiites, who taunt the companions who fled from the battlefield, but guess what, ammar also fled and he was not amongst the 13 companions who stayed with the prophet. If you say uthman was a coward, betrayer of the prophet, then the same allegation would be applied to ammar.

 

I already did. I provided the chain and if you can't read then that's not my problem. 

 

 

I can. 

 

Sorry it is not khabr ul ahad. It is narrated by jundub, abu saeed khudri, anas bin malik, abdullah bin masood. And it does not contain weak narrators as I will prove. 

 

Completely irrelevant. 

 

Sorry he is not abi shayba, he is ibn abi shaybah. And he is one of the most trustworthy narrators. 

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : متقن حافظ دين، ممن كتب وجمع وصنف وذاكر، وكان أحفظ أهل زمانه للمقاطيع

أبو حفص عمر بن شاهين : صدوق

أبو زرعة الرازي : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

أحمد بن حميد الجهمي : أحفظ أهل الكوفة

أحمد بن حنبل : صدوق وهو أحب إلى من عثمان

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : كوفي ثقة وكان حافظا للحديث

ابن أبي حاتم الرازي : كوفى ثقة، روى عن شريك وأبي الأحوص وعباد وهشيم

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ صاحب تصانيف

الخطيب البغدادي : كان متقنا حافظا مكثرا صنف المسند والاحكام والتفسير

الذهبي : سيد الحفاظ، إليه المنتهى في الثقة

القاسم بن سلام الهروي : ربانيو الحديث أربعة ذكره منهم، ومرة: انتهى الحديث إلي أربعة إلي: أبي بكر بن أبي شيبة، وأحمد بن حنبل، ويحيى بن معين، وعلي ابن المديني، فأبو بكر أسردهم له وأحسنهم وضعا لكتاب، وأحمد أفقهم فيه، ويحيى أجمعهم له، وعلي أعلمهم به

جعفر بن محمد الفريابي : سألت محمد بن نمير عن بني أبي شيبه فقال فيهم قولا لم أحب أن أذكره

صالح بن محمد جزرة : أحفظ من أدركنا عند المذاكرة

عبد الباقي بن قانع البغدادي : ثقة ثبت

عبد الرحمن بن يوسف بن خراش : ثقة

عبدان بن أحمد الأهوازي : كان يقعد عند الاسطوانة كثير كلهم سكوت الا أبو بكر فانه يهدر

عمرو بن علي الفلاس : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

قتيبة بن سعيد : كتبت عنه كل شىء

يحيى بن عبد الحميد الحماني : أولاد ابن أبي شيبة من أهل العلم كانوا يزاحموننا عند كل محدث

يحيى بن معين : الكوفة خراب إلا ابني أبي شيبة: أبو بكر وعثمان، ومرة: أبو بكر عندنا صدوق، ولو ادعى السماع من أجل من شريك لكان مصدقا فيه

يعقوب بن شيبة السدوسي : كان فيه تهاون بالحديث، لم يكن يفصل هذه الأشياء يعني الألفاظ

He is thiqa. 

Sorry, ishaq bin ibrahim here is ishaq bin rahawayh, one of the greatest trustworthy imams. 

أبو حاتم الرازي : العجب من إتقانه وسلامته من الغلط مع ما رزق من الحفظ وقال مرة: إمام من أئمة المسلمين

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان من سادات أهل زمانه فقها وعلما وحفظا

أبو دواد السجستاني : تغير قبل أن يموت بخمسة أشهر

أبو زرعة الرازي : ما رؤي أحفظ من إسحاق

أبو يحيى محمد بن يحيى الشعراني : ما رأيت بيد إسحاق كتابا قط وما كان يحدث إلا حفظا

أحمد بن حنبل : مثل إسحاق يسأل عنه؟ إسحاق عندنا إمام من أئمة المسلمين ، ومرة : إذا حدثك أبو يعقوب أمير المؤمنين فتمسك به

أحمد بن سعيد بن إبراهيم : لو كان الثوري وابن عيينة والحمادان في الحياة لاحتاجوا إليه

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : أحد الأئمة، ومرة: ثقة مأمون

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ مجتهد قرين أحمد بن حنبل

الذهبي : الإمام عالم خراسان

المزي : أحد أئمة المسلمين وعلماء الدين اجتمع له الحديث والفقه والحفظ والصدق والورع والزهد

زكريا بن داود الخفاف : أملى علينا أحد عشر ألف حديث من حفظه، ثم قرأها فلم يزد حرفا ولا نقصه

سعيد بن ذؤيب المروزي : ما أعلم علي وجه الأرض مثل إسحاق

عبد اللطيف بن إبراهيم بن الكيال الشافعي : إمام من أعلام الأئمة

قتيبة بن سعيد : إمام

محمد بن أسلم الطوسي : ما أعلم أحدا كان أخشي لله من إسحاق وكان أعلم الناس ولو كان سفيان الثوري في الحياة لاحتاج إلى إسحاق

محمد بن إسحاق بن خزيمة : والله لو أن إسحاق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي كان في التابعين لأقروا له بحفظه وعلمه وفقهه

وهب بن جرير البصري : أحى السنة بأرض المشرق

Sorry zakariya bin adiy is also thiqa 

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة رجل صالح

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة جليل يحفظ

ابن زبر الربعي : روى له، ونقل عن عبد الحمن بن مرزوق قوله: وما كتبت عن أحد أفضل منه

الذهبي : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

المنذر بن شاذان : ما رأيت أحفظ منه

عبد الرحمن بن يوسف بن خراش : ثقة جليل ورع

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : صالح ثقة صدوق

يحيى بن معين : لا بأس به

Sorry ubaydullah bin amr her is ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

أبو بكر البيهقي : ثقة

أبو حاتم الرازي : صالح الحديث، ثقة صدوق، لا أعرف له حديثا منكرا

أبو حفص عمر بن شاهين : ثقة

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه ربما وهم

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق ربما وهم، ومرة: كان ثقة كثير الحديث، وربما أخطأ، وكان أحفظ من روى عن عبد الكريم الجزري

محمد بن عبد الله بن نمير : ثقة

مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة، وقوله ربما وهم، اقتبسها من ابن سعد، وقد انفرد بها، فلا يعتد لها

يحيى بن معين : ثقة

Nope, both are authentic. And for your kind information, I never weakened hadith ghadeer. 

Provide the chain for your claims. And also the arabic quote. 

 

Doesn't matter, wahabis, deobandis, and barelvis all deny that ghadeer means appointment. 

 

Your 'refutation' was terrible. You provided ni evidence from scholars of jarh wa tadil, who weakened any of the narrators. While I provided statements of scholars who made tawtheeq of the narrators in the chain. So try again. 

 

First learn to read, and then try to debunk genius. Jundub in this narration is jundub bin abdullah not samura bin jundub. 

Your favorite hadith about Abubakr has not been narrated by جُنْدُبِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ jundub bin abdullah which there are multiple Jundab in Sunni narrations which you have taken wrong person just for proving your nonsense .

On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Your 'refutation' was terrible. You provided ni evidence from scholars of jarh wa tadil, who weakened any of the narrators. While I provided statements of scholars who made tawtheeq of the narrators in the chain. So try again. 

Your refutation is more terrible than mine because you , yourself deny authencity of of a narrator when you find his narration against your nonsense then in another time which that narrator confirms your nonsense then you call hi Thiqa also you have mistaken  narrators  with same name just for proving your nonsens which I have mentioned although some of these sunni narrators in your favorite hadith has been called Thiqa anyway they have mistakes in narrations or their narrations just have been neither strong nor weak 

On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

 

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق ربما وهم، ومرة: كان ثقة كثير الحديث، وربما أخطأ، وكان أحفظ من روى عن عبد الكريم الجزري

 

Muhammad ibn Saad has been thiqa  although he maybe mistaken and also : he has been Thiqa with many hadiths  , maybe I have mistaken which he learnt  & narated from عبد الكريم الجزري 

عبد الكريم الجزري  has been a loyal person to cursed Marwan ibn Hakam the wretched enemy of Amir al mumin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which in similar fashion majority of your Thiqa narrators in this hadith have been from loyal people to cursed Ummayids & Abbasids & Salafi narrators which common point between them is fabrication hadiths in favor of three caliphs by order of cursed Umayyads  & Abbasids in order of opposing with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 

Quote

عبد الكريم بن مالك الجزري

من ويكيبيديا، الموسوعة الحرة
 
 
 
 
عبد الكريم بن مالك الجزري
معلومات شخصية
مكان الميلاد إصطخر  تعديل قيمة خاصية (P19) في ويكي بيانات
تاريخ الوفاة سنة 744  تعديل قيمة خاصية (P570) في ويكي بيانات
الحياة العملية
المهنة مُحَدِّث  تعديل قيمة خاصية (P106) في ويكي بيانات
اللغات العربية  تعديل قيمة خاصية (P1412) في ويكي بيانات
 
 
تعديل مصدري - تعديل طالع توثيق القالب

عبد الكريم بن مالك أبو سعيد الجزري الحراني، تابعي ومحدث مولى بني أمية، مولى محمد بن مروان بن الحكم بن أبي العاص، وأصله من بلد إصطخر. رأى أنس بن مالك ، وعداده في صغار التابعين. توفي سنة سبع وعشرين ومائة.

https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/عبد_الكريم_بن_مالك_الجزري

Quote

عبد الْكَرِيم بن مَالك الْجَزرِي أَبُو سعيد مولى بني أُميَّة بن عَم خصيف
أَصله من اصطخر سكن حران يَرْوِي عَن سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر وَمُجاهد روى عَنهُ الثَّوْريّ وَمَالك وَأهل بَلَده مَاتَ سنة سبع وَعشْرين وَمِائَة كَانَ صَدُوقًا وَلكنه كَانَ ينْفَرد عَن الثِّقَات بالأشياء الْمَنَاكِير فَلَا يُعجبنِي الِاحْتِجَاج بِمَا انْفَرد من الْأَخْبَار وَإِن اعْتبر مُعْتَبر بِمَا وَافق الثِّقَات من حَدِيثه فَلَا ضير وَهُوَ مِمَّن استخير الله فِيهِ

http://hadithtransmitters.hawramani.com/عبد-الكريم-بن-مالك-الجزري-ابو-سعيد/

 

Quote

he may be mistaken (رُبَّمَا وَهِم)

  1. الرئيسية
  2.  
  3. معجم المصطلحات الشرعية
  4.  
  5. الإنجليزية
  6.  
  7. he may be mistaken (رُبَّمَا وَهِم)

he may be mistaken (رُبَّمَا وَهِم)

https://islamic-content.com/dictionary/word/5127/en

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 12:07 AM, sunni muslim said:

It was narrated that Rafi' atTaʼi, Abu Bakrʼs companion during the campaign of as-Salasil, said:

 

On 8/20/2022 at 12:07 AM, sunni muslim said:

رَفِيقِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ

It's a great  proof by you that these narrations have been fabricated in favor of Abubakr by enemies of Amir al muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
9 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Ansd that's not even an insult. It is mentioned in shia narrations

This is not an insult to 12th Imam also it proves that is a tradition from prophets which clearly it has been mentioned that prophet Musa (عليه السلام) has feared from killing by people of pharoah after killing one of them which it has caused his fleeing from Egypt so then absence from Bani Israel also when his staff has turned to snake for first time as sign of his prophethood so then he afraid from it & ran awy which also when he faced with magicians of Pharoah when they have performed their illusion so then he feared from misunderstanding of people which in all of them allah has given him courage & strength which in similar fashion Allah  has given courage & strength to 12th imam in similar fashion of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I didn't. Hanafis are much more harsh against the Shiites than the salafis. Sunnis whether he is hanafi shafii maliki Or whatever, don't believe that ali is appointed successor of prophet, if you can't digest that, then that's not my problem. 

I have not seen any Hanafi until now that has been harsh toward Shias but on yhe other hand there are too many Wahabists & Salafis who are pretending that they are Hanafi or Maliki or Shafii which surly your are one of these type of Wahabists .

 

12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry sir. History books does have chains of narrations. Provide one or don't waste my time. 

You have asked for chains not mine anyway my source is reliable whether you accept it or not .

12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

And to be honest. As much I read the ghadeer, my faith became stronger, that i don't base my entire religion on such a vague hadeeth. 

You call Ghadeer hadith as vague Hadeeth then you say that you have not denied it surly you need a  long term Psychotherapy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

ther is no mention about that he is Thiqa anyway you have created too many Thiqa narrators by yourself which they are Thiqa because  they have been labled Thiqa by Wahabi & Salafi scholars likewis Asqalani who all of them have had enmity toward Amir al muminin Imam ali (عليه السلام) 

some  people called him Thiqa & some people called him Majhool based on their inclition toward  their sect which surly wahabist & Salfists have called him Thiqa which in similar fashion rest of your mentioned narrators have been called Thiqa by Whabists & Salafists.

 

FACTS
English Name Ubaidullah bin Amr bin Abi Walid
Arabic Name عبيد الله بن عمرو بن أبي الوليد
Gender Male
Year of Death (CE) 796
Generation

Tabi' Tabi'een

https://isnad.io/rawi/20445

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sorry he is not abi shayba, he is ibn abi shaybah. And he is one of the most trustworthy narrators. 

I have shortened his name which I have not cahnged his name likewise you anyway he is Yhiqa which this hadith is from him

Quote

When the people pledged allegiance to Abع Bakr, Ali and Zubair were talking and consulting in Fatima's house, and this news reached Umar bin Khattab. He came to Fatima's house and said: O daughter of َAllah's Messenger! The most beloved person for us is your father, and after your father, you yourself!!! But, I swear to God, this love does not stop me if these people gather in your house, I will order  to burn down the house with people in it.

He said this sentence and went out. When Ali (عليه السلام) and Zubair returned home, the beloved daughter of Prophet said  ot Ali (عليه السلام) and Zubair said: Umar came to me and sworn that if your meeting is repeated, he will destroy the house. He will burn you, I swear to Allah! He does what he has sworn!

al-Musnaf  ,v 8 ,p 572

Arabic text

Quote


أنه حين بويع لأبي بكر بعد رسول الله ( ص ) كان علي والزبير يدخلان علي فاطمة بنت رسول الله ( ص ) فيشاورونها ويرتجعون في أمرهم ، فلما بلغ ذلك عمر بن الخطاب خرج حتي دخل علي فاطمة فقال : يا بنت رسول الله ( ص ) ! والله ما من أحد أحب إلينا من أبيك ، وما من أحد أحب إلينا بعد أبيك منك ، وأيم الله ما ذاك بمانعي إن اجتمع هؤلاء النفر عندك ، إن أمرتهم أن يحرق عليهم البيت ، قال : فلما خرج عمر جاؤوها فقالت : تعلمون أن عمر قد جاءني وقد حلف بالله لئن عدتم ليحرقن عليكم البيت وأيم الله ليمضين لما حلف عليه 

المصنف ، ج8 ، ص 572 .

 

proof of being Thiqa  for ibn abi shaybah so threfore attack of Umar to house of Lady Fatima by order of Abubakr is true.

Quote

اثبات صحیح بودن سند روایت :

ابن أبي شيه سند روايت را اين گونه نقل مي كند :

حدثنا محمد بن بشر نا عبيد الله بن عمر حدثنا زيد بن أسلم عن أبيه أسلم

=============

محمد بن بشر :

مزي در تهذيب الكمال در باره وي مي گويد :

قال عثمان بن سعيد الدارمي ، عن يحيي بن معين : ثقة .

و قال أبو عبيد الآجري : سألت أبا داود عن سماع محمد بن بشر من سعيد بن أبي عروبة فقال : هو أحفظ من كان بالكوفة .

ابو عبيد گويد : از داود سؤال كردم از روايت محمد بن بشير از سعيد بن أبي عروبه ، گفت : او از نظر حفظ از تمامي كوفيان برتر بوده است .

تهذيب الكمال ، ج24 ، ص533 .

و ابن حجر در تهذيب التهذيب مي نويسد :

و كان ثقة ، كثير الحديث .

و قال النسائي ، و ابن قانع : ثقة .

و قال ابن شاهين في " الثقات " : قال عثمان بن أبي شيبة : محمد بن بشر ثقة ثبت .

تهذيب التهذيب ، ج9 ، ص 74 .

=============

عبيد الله بن عمر بن حفص بن عاصم بن عمر بن الخطاب :

مزي در تهذيب الكمال در باره وي مي نويسد :

و قال أبو حاتم : سألت أحمد بن حنبل عن مالك ، و عبيد الله بن عمر ، و أيوب أيهم أثبت في نافع ؟ فقال : عبيد الله أثبتهم وأحفظهم وأكثرهم رواية .

و قال عبد الله بن أحمد بن حنبل : قال يحيي بن معين : عبيد الله بن عمر من الثقات .

و قال أبو زرعة ، و أبو حاتم : ثقة .

و قال النسائي : ثقة ثبت .

و قال أبو بكر بن منجويه : كان من سادات أهل المدينة و أشراف قريش فضلا و علما و عبادة و شرفا و حفظا و إتقانا .

تهذيب الكلمال ، ج19 ، ص127 .

و ابن حجر در تهذيب التهذيب مي نويسد :

قال ابن منجويه : كان من سادات أهل المدينة و أشراف قريش : فضلا و علما و عبادة و شرفا و حفظا و إتقانا . )

و قال أحمد بن صالح : ثقة ثبت مأمون ، ليس أحد أثبت في حديث نافع منه .

تهذيب التهذيب ، ج7 ، ص 40 .

=============

زيد بن أسلم القرشي العدوي :

وي از روات ، بخاري ، مسلم و بقيه صحاح سته اهل سنت است ؛ از اين رو در وثاقت اين شخص ، هيچ ترديدي وجود ندارد .

مزي در تهذيب الكمال در باره وي مي نويسد :

و قال عبد الله بن أحمد بن حنبل عن أبيه ، و أبو زرعة ، و أبو حاتم ، و محمد بن سعد ، و النسائي ، و ابن خراش : ثقة .

و قال يعقوب بن شيبة : ثقة من أهل الفقه والعلم ، و كان عالما بتفسير القرآن ، له كتاب فيه تفسير القرآن .

تهذيب الكمال ، ج10 ، ص17 .

=============

أسلم القرشي العدوي ، أبو خالد و يقال أبو زيد ، المدني ، مولي عمر بن الخطاب :

وي نيز از روات بخاري ، مسلم و بقيه صحاح ا هل سنت و از صحابه است و از آن جايي كه تمامي صحابه از ديدگاه اهل سنت ، عادل هستند ، در وثاقت وي نمي توانند ترديد كنند .

He is also from Bukhari, Muslim and other authentic narrators of Ahl as-Sunnah and from the companions, and since all the companions are righteous from the point of view of Ahl al-Sunnah, they cannot doubt his authenticity.

مزي در تهذيب الكمال مي نويسد :

أدرك زمان النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم .

و قال العجلي : مديني ثقة من كبار التابعين . و قال أبو زرعة : ثقة .

تهذيب الكمال ، ج2 ، ص530 .

http://hai.rzb.ir/p/486

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sorry, ishaq bin ibrahim here is ishaq bin rahawayh, one of the greatest trustworthy imams. 

أبو حاتم الرازي : العجب من إتقانه وسلامته من الغلط مع ما رزق من الحفظ وقال مرة: إمام من أئمة المسلمين

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان من سادات أهل زمانه فقها وعلما وحفظا

أبو دواد السجستاني : تغير قبل أن يموت بخمسة أشهر

أبو زرعة الرازي : ما رؤي أحفظ من إسحاق

أبو يحيى محمد بن يحيى الشعراني : ما رأيت بيد إسحاق كتابا قط وما كان يحدث إلا حفظا

أحمد بن حنبل : مثل إسحاق يسأل عنه؟ إسحاق عندنا إمام من أئ

 

Quote

Musnad Ishaq ibn Rahawayh

 

As in ‘Abaqat al Anwar (vol. 1 pg. 147):

 

احمد بن فضل بن محمد با كثير عن وسيلة المآل قال عن على بن ابى طالب رضى الله عنه و كرم الله وجهه ان النبى صلى الله عليه و سلم قال قد تركت فيكم ما ان اخذتم به لن تضلوا, كتاب الله سببه بيده و سببه بايديكم واهل بيتى اخرجه اسحاق بن راهويه فى مسنده من طريق كثير بن زيد عن محمد بن عمر بن على بن ابى طالب عن ابيه عن جده رضى الله عنهم

Ahmed ibn Fadl ibn Muhammad Ba Kathir has reported on the authority of Wasilat al Ma’al from ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib radiya Llahu ‘anhu that Nabi salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said:

Indeed I have left amongst you that which, if you hold onto, you will never go astray. The Book of Allah, the one end of which is in His Hand and the other is in your hand, and my Ahlul Bayt. Reported by Ishaq ibn Rahawayh in his Musnad on the authority of Kathir ibn Zaid from Muhammad ibn ‘Umar ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib from his father (‘Umar) from his grandfather (‘Ali).

 

The actual manuscript of the book Musnad Ishaq is very rare. The portion of the chain that we quoted was taken from the book ‘Abaqat al Anwar (vol. 1 page 147). The narration of this Musnad is reported from Kathir ibn Zaid al Rumi who narrates from ‘Ali radiya Llahu ‘anhu. Now let us have a look at the credibility of Kathir ibn Zaid according to the scholars of rijal.

 

Kathir ibn Zaid al Rumi

1. Ibn Abi Hatim in Kitab al Jarh wa al Ta’dil:

 

سئل يحيى بن معين عن كثير بن زيد فقال ليس بذاك القوى…فقال ابو زرعة هو صدوق فيه لين

Yahya ibn Ma’in was asked about Kathir ibn Zaid and he said, “He is not strong according to the Muhaddithin”… Abu Zur’ah said, “Truthful but he has weakness.”

https://mahajjah.com/musnad-ishaq-ibn-rahawayh/

 ishaq bin rahawayh has Wahabi belief about having a body for Allah which can descend without the Throne being vacant (empty) of him which also proves my point about his belief about creation of Quran 

Quote

image.png.f98e609129ba7ff70b3d1c692d2902b2.png

https://books.google.com/books?id=RwPnCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329&dq=ishaq+bin+rahawayh&source=bl&ots=fuRbsRpKJQ&sig=ACfU3U0AHjGfxihhYOvy4WbyiUTir5Ab8Q&hl=fa&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtm47G_dn5AhXj8LsIHXNwC_cQ6AF6BAgUEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

zakariya bin adiy is also thiqa

some people have called it Thiqa also some of them have called him Majhool (unknown) even weak (Da'if)

Quote

 

 

Quote

https://isnad.io/rijaal?page=1

On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sorry ubaydullah bin amr her is ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

Quote

Lisan al-Mizan    6    Yazid bin Ubaid Al-Lh    يزيد بن عبيد الله عن عمرو عن أبي هريرة رضي الله تعالى عنهما مجهول انتهى وفي الثقات لابن حبان    Majhool

https://isnad.io/rijaal?query=عبيد+الله+بن+عمرو&page=4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Provide the chain for your claims. And also the arabic quote. 

 

Quote
BASIC INFORMATION
Author Muhammad al-Bukhari
Book al-Tarikh al-Kabir
Chapter 2
Rajool al-Harith bin Abdullah Abu
Grade Da'if
Text

الحارث بن عبد الله أبو زهير الهمداني الخارفي الأعور الكوفي قال لنا بن يونس عن زائدة عن إبراهيم أنه اتهم الحارث كناه النضر بن شميل عن يونس بن أبي إسحاق وقال بعضهم الحارث بن عبيد وقال أبو أسامة حدثنا مفضل عن مغيرة سمعت الشعبي حدثنا الحارث وأشهد أنه أحد الكذابين

 

Quote

https://isnad.io/ism/27404?query=عبد+الله+بن+الحارث+النجراني&page=2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

both of cahins are void so your favorite hadith is just a fabrication by Nasibis & rest of  enemies of Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

عِكْرِمَةَ (Ikrima) has been a liar & has inclination towar Khawarij also his contemporaries refrained from narrating from him because his too much lying about Ibn Abbas

There is no proof of that. Ikrima being a kharji is already debunked by many scholars. 

14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

He is another great liar which he has been appointed by ibn Zubair as his speciall judge & muezzin which everybody knows that Ibn zubair & his comrades have been staunch enemies of Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which duty of أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ has been fabrication of hadith in favor of three caliphs based on great enmity of Ibn Zubair & him with Amir al Munin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which even Asqalani in his book "تهذيب التهذيب" has discredited عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ.

Sorry abdullah bin abi mulaikah is a thiqa imam which is even attested by ibn hajr asqalani. 

أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : رأى ثمانين من أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، ويروى عن ابن عباس، وابن الزبير، وعائشة، روى عنه ابن جريج، والناس

أبو زرعة الرازي : ثقة

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة

ابن أبي حاتم الرازي : ثقة

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه كثير الحديث

الدارقطني : ليس بالقوي، وهو أقدم شيخ حدث عنه الشافعي

الذهبي : لا يعرف

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة كثير الحديث

14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Your favorite hadith about Abubakr has not been narrated by جُنْدُبِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ jundub bin abdullah which there are multiple Jundab in Sunni narrations which you have taken wrong person just for proving your nonsense

It is you who is spewing nonsense. First you said that he is samura bin jundub. Ibn abi mulayka narrate from two jundubs and both of them are reliable companions, so it doesn't matter which jundub is in this narration because both jundubs from whom ibn abi mulayka narrate from are thiqa companions. 

 

14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Your refutation is more terrible than mine because you , yourself deny authencity of of a narrator when you find his narration against your nonsense then in another time which that narrator confirms your nonsense then you call hi Thiqa also you have mistaken  narrators  with same name just for proving your nonsens which I have mentioned although some of these sunni narrators in your favorite hadith has been called Thiqa anyway they have mistakes in narrations or their narrations just have been neither strong nor weak 

It's not a terrible refutation rather it is neck breaker refutation. You can't prove that any narratprs in this chain is weak by quoting any rijali scholars. I quoted many rijali scholars who made tawtheeq of the narrators of the narrations. 

 

14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Muhammad ibn Saad has been thiqa  although he maybe mistaken and also : he has been Thiqa with many hadiths  , maybe I have mistaken which he learnt  & narated from عبد الكريم الجزري 

عبد الكريم الجزري  has been a loyal person to cursed Marwan ibn Hakam the wretched enemy of Amir al mumin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which in similar fashion majority of your Thiqa narrators in this hadith have been from loyal people to cursed Ummayids & Abbasids & Salafi narrators which common point between them is fabrication hadiths in favor of three caliphs by order of cursed Umayyads  & Abbasids in order of opposing with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 

It doesn't.  Athiqa narrator who may make some mistakes here and there, he hadeeth are hasan, a narrator which is saduq who have tons of illusions, or makes a lot of mistakes, his lone narration is weak.

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

 

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

ther is no mention about that he is Thiqa anyway you have created too many Thiqa narrators by yourself which they are Thiqa because  they have been labled Thiqa by Wahabi & Salafi scholars likewis Asqalani who all of them have had enmity toward Amir al muminin Imam ali (عليه السلام) 

some  people called him Thiqa & some people called him Majhool based on their inclition toward  their sect which surly wahabist & Salfists have called him Thiqa which in similar fashion rest of your mentioned narrators have been called Thiqa by Whabists & Salafists.

Here is his tawtheeq

أبو بكر البيهقي : ثقة

أبو حاتم الرازي : صالح الحديث، ثقة صدوق، لا أعرف له حديثا منكرا

أبو حفص عمر بن شاهين : ثقة

أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة

أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة

ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه ربما وهم

محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق ربما وهم، ومرة: كان ثقة كثير الحديث، وربما أخطأ، وكان أحفظ من روى عن عبد الكريم الجزري

محمد بن عبد الله بن نمير : ثقة

مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة، وقوله ربما وهم، اقتبسها من ابن سعد، وقد انفرد بها، فلا يعتد لها

يحيى بن معين : ثقة

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I have shortened his name which I have not cahnged his name likewise you anyway he is Yhiqa which this hadith is from him

Arabic text

proof of being Thiqa  for ibn abi shaybah so threfore attack of Umar to house of Lady Fatima by order of Abubakr is true.

http://hai.rzb.ir/p/486

Completely irrelevant. 

10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

ishaq bin rahawayh has Wahabi belief about having a body for Allah which can descend without the Throne being vacant (empty) of him which also proves my point about his belief about creation of Quran 

It doesn't matter. He is a trustworthy scholars. You have dozens of narrators who are thiqa accoding to you but are from musguided sects like waqifa and fattahiya. 

 

10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Noone had weakened him or called him unknown. The narrator you are quoting is ibrahim ibn abi maymun not zakaria bin ady.

 

 

10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:
On 8/20/2022 at 2:58 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sorry ubaydullah bin amr her is ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

Quote

Lisan al-Mizan    6    Yazid bin Ubaid Al-Lh    يزيد بن عبيد الله عن عمرو عن أبي هريرة رضي الله تعالى عنهما مجهول انتهى وفي الثقات لابن حبان    Majhool

Again. The narrator you are trying to prove majhool is yazeed bin ubaydullah bin amr not ubaydullah bin amr. 

Edited by Mahdavist
Inappropriate comment removed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Where ? Can you show me where it was 'debunked' ? 

Here

21 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This explanation is nonsense. Imagine a president of a country saying to his people, o people am I not your president, they all say yes, then he say whoever I'm president so and so is his president. Absolutely ridiculous. People would laugh at that president for saying that. One government doesn't have two presidents at the same time. Prophet was the only leader at that time. It may be difficult for you to understand so let's take this example, imagine khamenai saying, whoever I'm supreme leader so and so is his supreme leader. Wow, makes so much sense

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Aql vs Qiyas

@sunni muslim Qiyas (Analogical Reasoning) is Haraam (Forbidden) in certain sects. Hanafi School of Thought founded by Abu Hanifah is well known for this and you are no exception which your 100+ posts demonstrates.

https://www.medinaminds.com/qiyas-a-classic-tool-or-classic-mistake/

Your questions in your topics demands answers that requires Aql (Deductive Reasoning) but it is self-defeating when you use Qiyas (Analogical Reasoning) to justify your stance under any means necessary. You seem to have your answers through Qiyas so why the need to berate and harass such Raafidhas from amongst the Muslim sects who are too busy with their sacred months.

Please keep shooting yourself more down on your feet. Cause you are no different than Shaytan who also used Qiyas against Allah to justify himself that he is better than Adam (عليه السلام) under any means necessary.

Followers of Ahmed ibn Hanbal founder of the Hanbali school of thought will disagree with you massively. 

Aql breeds Intellect & Wisdom. Qiyas breeds Arrogance and Ego.

Which is clearly the logically superior option?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 8/19/2022 at 2:37 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sure. 

It was narrated that Rafi' atTaʼi, Abu Bakrʼs companion during the campaign of as-Salasil, said:

I asked him about how they came to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr and he said - when telling him about what the Ansar said and what Abu Bakr said to them and what `Umar bin al-Khattab said to the Ansar when he reminded them that he had led them in prayer on the instructions of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) when he was sick They swore allegiance to me because of that and I Accepted it from them, but I was concerned that there would be turmoil that would lead to apostasy,

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَيَّاشٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي يَزِيدُ بْنُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ ذِي، عَصْوَانَ الْعَنْسِيُّ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ بْنِ عُمَيْرٍ اللَّخْمِيِّ، عَنْ رَافِعٍ الطَّائِيِّ، رَفِيقِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فِي غَزْوَةِ السُّلَاسِلِ قَالَ وَسَأَلْتُهُ عَمَّا قِيلَ مِنْ بَيْعَتِهِمْ فَقَالَ وَهُوَ يُحَدِّثُهُ عَمَّا تَكَلَّمَتْ بِهِ الْأَنْصَارُ وَمَا كَلَّمَهُمْ بِهِ وَمَا كَلَّمَ بِهِ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ الْأَنْصَارَ وَمَا ذَكَّرَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ إِمَامَتِي إِيَّاهُمْ بِأَمْرِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي مَرَضِهِ فَبَايَعُونِي لِذَلِكَ وَقَبِلْتُهَا مِنْهُمْ وَتَخَوَّفْتُ أَنْ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ تَكُونُ بَعْدَهَا رِدَّةٌ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih. Its isnad is jayyid 

What fantasy!!! Clearly "Rafi' atTa'i" had never actually heard or read any narrations about what transpired at Saqifah. Actual narrations of Saqifah will tell you that Umar nominated Abu Bakr or Abu Ubaydah bin Al-Jarrah to be elected as caliph so clearly (not)leading prayers was not a criteria and not brought up in the non-fantasy narrations of Saqifah. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

What fantasy!!! Clearly "Rafi' atTa'i" had never actually heard or read any narrations about what transpired at Saqifah. Actual narrations of Saqifah will tell you that Umar nominated Abu Bakr or Abu Ubaydah bin Al-Jarrah to be elected as caliph so clearly (not)leading prayers was not a criteria and not brought up in the non-fantasy narrations of Saqifah

First read the narration genius. Rafi' at tai narrated that from abu bakr. Abu bakr narrated what umar said. Read that clearly and  don't waste my time. 

 

Edited by sunni muslim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
5 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Debunked

 

Nabi Moosa and Nabi Haroon succession debunked?

Nabi Ayuub and Nabi Yusuf succession debunked?

Nabi Ibraheem and Nabi Ismael succession debunked? 

Nabi Suleman and Dawood succession debunked? 
 

If not out of ignorance, your using the word debunked is close to blasphemy of Quran. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you to the true Islam of Quran and Ahlulbayt!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

First read the narration genius. Rafi' at tai narrated that from abu bakr. Abu bakr narrated what umar said. Read that clearly and  don't waste my time. 

 

Easy tiger. I did read it and have read it before. To spell it out clearly to you, I am casting doubt on Rafi but perhaps you are right and Abu Bakr is culpable in creating this fantasy. Historical narrations clearly state that Umar nominated Abu Bakr or Abu Ubaydah so clearly leading prayer was not a category discussed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Noone had weakened him or called him unknown. The narrator you are quoting is ibrahim ibn abi maymun not zakaria bin ady.

 

 

19 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:
On 8/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, sunni muslim said:

Sorry ubaydullah bin amr her is ubaydullah bin amr bin abi waleed who is thiqa. 

Quote

Lisan al-Mizan    6    Yazid bin Ubaid Al-Lh    يزيد بن عبيد الله عن عمرو عن أبي هريرة رضي الله تعالى عنهما مجهول انتهى وفي الثقات لابن حبان    Majhool

Expand  

Again. The narrator you are trying to prove majhool is yazeed bin ubaydullah bin amr not ubaydullah bin amr. 

Salam this your procedure to change name of narrators for calling them as Thiqa also all of your favorit narrators has been called Thiqa by Wahabists & Salafists for their fabrications in favor of three caliphs & thier loyalty toward cursed Ummayads & Abbasid kings & having an agenda agianst Amir Al muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) anyway I accept making mistakes in reffering to narrators nevethless it doesn't mean that your narrators are Thiqa .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Easy tiger. I did read it and have read it before. To spell it out clearly to you, I am casting doubt on Rafi but perhaps you are right and Abu Bakr is culpable in creating this fantasy. Historical narrations clearly state that Umar nominated Abu Bakr or Abu Ubaydah so clearly leading prayer was not a category discussed. 

There is no proof of that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
56 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

There is no proof of that. 

Salam , sorry to debunk you from your sites & sources anyway I'm sure that you will deny it 

Quote

in history as the Day of Saqifah. On this day

Umar ibn al-Khattab said to Abu Ubaydah, "Stretch forth your hand and I will swear allegiance to you

 

Quote

Who was that strong, trustworthy man about whom `Umar lbn Al Khattaab said on his deathbed, "If Abu `Ubaidah Ibn Al-Jarraah were alive, I would have entrusted him with the caliphate, and if Allah asked me about him, I would say, I assigned the caliphate to the trustworthy of Allah and His Prophet, Abu `Ubaidah Ibn Al Jarraah.

 

Quote

After the beloved Prophet had passed away, the companions gathered to choose a successor at the Saqifah or meeting place of Banu Saaadah. The day is known in history as the Day of Saqifah. On this day, Umar ibn al-Khattab said to Abu Ubaydah, "Stretch forth your hand and I will swear allegiance to you for I heard the Prophet, peace be upon him say, 'Every ummah has an amin (custodian) and you are the amin of this ummah.' "

 

Quote

It was then that a plague hit the land of Syria, the like of which people had never experienced before. It devastated the population. Umar dispatched a messenger to Abu Ubaydah with a letter saying:

"I am in urgent need of you. If my letter reaches you at night I strongly urge you to leave before dawn. If this letter reaches you during the day, I strongly urge you to leave before evening and hasten to me.

When Abu Ubaydah received Umar's letter, he said, "I know why the Amir al-Mumineen needs me. He wants to secure the survival of someone who, however, is not eternal." So he wrote to Umar:

"I know that you need me. But I am in an army of Muslims and I have no desire to save myself from what is afflicting them. I do not want to separate from them until God wills. So, when this letter reaches you, release me from your command and permit me to stay on.''

When Umar read this letter tears filled his eyes and those who were with him asked, "Has Abu Ubaydah died, O Amir al-Mumineen?"

"No," said he, "But death is near to him."

Umar's intuition was not wrong.

 

Quote

When Umar was on his death bed, he was asked that he should nominate his successor. Umar sighed and said, "Whom should I nominate my successor? If Abu Ubaida had been alive, I would have nominated him as my successor for about him the Holy Prophet had said that he was the trustee of the Muslim community. If Salam the liberated slave of Abu Huzaifa had been alive, I would have nominated him as my successor for about him the Holy Prophet had said that among the Muslims he loved Allah most."

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/19/4/

 

https://www.alim.org/history/prophet-companion/2/

https://www.alsiraj.net/English/sahaba/html/page07.html

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/19/4/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

There is no proof of that. 

 

Quote

Abu Ubayda ibn al-Jarrah

(d. 639)

QUICK REFERENCE

(d. 639)

Companion of the Prophet and one of the ten to whom paradise was promised by him. Played an important role in the election of Abu Bakr as Muhammad's successor, and later led military campaigns in Syria. Said to have been caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab's choice as his successor, but predeceased him.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095345483

Quote

Abu 'Ubayda tried to take an oath of allegiance from 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, the Prophet's (s) uncle.

 

Quote

His Role in the Caliphate of Abu Bakr

Main article: Incident of Saqifa

After the demise of the Prophet (s), some heads of Ansar gathered in Saqifa Bani Sa'ida in order to select a caliph from among themselves. Their candidate was Sa'd b. 'Ubada. When 'Umar b. al-Khattab heard the news, he took Abu Bakr b. Abi Quhafa and Abu 'Ubayda to the Saqifa. After quarrels between Muhajirun and Ansar, Abu Bakr was finally selected as the caliph and people pledged their allegiance to him.

Although Abu 'Ubayda's role in the Incident of Saqifa is not obviously known, his cooperation with Abu Bakr and 'Umar in the Saqifa and his influential role in later events cannot be accidental.

Taking Oaths of Allegiance from Opponents of the Caliph

When Abu Bakr became the caliph, Abu 'Ubayda played a major role in taking oaths of allegiance from his opponents, and in particular, 'Ali (a). Together with Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and Mughira b. Shu'ba, Abu 'Ubayda tried to take an oath of allegiance from 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, the Prophet's (s) uncle. When Abu Bakr's caliphate was stabilized, Abu 'Ubayda administered the Treasury. He was one of the most important figures in the establishment of the caliphate.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abu_'Ubayda_al-Jarrah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
كتاب المناقب عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم
49  
Chapters on Virtues
 

(14.00)
Chapter: The Virtues Of Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, May Allah Be Pleased With Him, And His Name Is 'Abdullah bin 'Uthman, And His Nickname Is 'Atiq
(14)
باب مَنَاقِبِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ الصِّدِّيقِ رضى الله عنه واسمه عبد الله بن عثمان ولقبه عتيق
 
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Shaqiq:
"I said to 'Aishah: 'Which of the Companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) were the most beloved to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)?' She said: 'Abu Bakr.' I said: 'Then who?' She said: ''Umar.' I said: "Then who?' She said: 'Then Abu 'Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah.'" He said: "I said: 'Then who?''" He said: "Then she was silent."
 
حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الدَّوْرَقِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنِ الْجُرَيْرِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ شَقِيقٍ، قَالَ قُلْتُ لِعَائِشَةَ أَىُّ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ أَحَبَّ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ قَالَتْ أَبُو بَكْرٍ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَتْ عُمَرُ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَتْ ثُمَّ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَ فَسَكَتَتْ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏
 
Grade:  Sahih (Darussalam)    
Reference  : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3657
In-book reference  : Book 49, Hadith 53
English translation

 : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3657

 

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الدَّوْرَقِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنِ الْجُرَيْرِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ شَقِيقٍ، قَالَ قُلْتُ لِعَائِشَةَ أَىُّ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ أَحَبَّ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ قَالَتْ أَبُو بَكْرٍ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَتْ عُمَرُ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَتْ ثُمَّ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ ثُمَّ مَنْ قَالَ فَسَكَتَتْ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Shaqiq: "I said to 'Aishah: 'Which of the Companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) were the most beloved to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)?' She said: 'Abu Bakr.' I said: 'Then who?' She said: ''Umar.' I said: "Then who?' She said: 'Then Abu 'Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah.'" He said: "I said: 'Then who?''" He said: "Then she was silent."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3657
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3657

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3657

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Here

 

I already responded to that faulty analysis earliers. Let me summarize again. 

- Rasoulallah was not talking to the English people in a modern parliamentary system, nor was he talking to the people of the US (which has a president, but didn't exist at the time), nor was he talking to the people of Rome or Persia, who had a set tradition of appointing kings. 

He was talking to the Arabs of Hijaz, specifically those around the area of Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. In that context, what was said by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) at Ghadir makes perfect sense and it was completely in keeping with the precedents for leadership appointment that was used by those people at that time and in that place. 

If you want to actually refute my statement, you need to bring evidence from similar appointments that were done in Hijaz, in the 7th century, prior to that time,  in that area, and show how the manner and words used in those appointments was significantly different from the words and the manner in which Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) informed the people of the successorship of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). 

If you can't do that, you didn't refute anything. You response is merely wild speculation. 

In the absence of 'real' refutation, the statement made by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) has a clear meaning. It is in clear Arabic and it was said in a specific context, which also backs up the wording of the statement. It was understood by thousands of muslims at that time and hundreds of millions today to mean Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) is the Leader of all the muslims after Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). 

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...