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Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Cool said:

:hahaha: Why don't you just read what you said & quote by me again. 

Now I have highlighted the hadith. It was people who were saying Umar to appoint successor. No consultation is mentioned here. So he replied if I would appoint my successor, I would because, one better than me did so. Again no consultation. 

Bang!!

I read that. 

Umar didn't want to appoint successor whether by himself nor by consulting. Abu bakr did that. Prophet didn't did that. Umar wanted to follow prophet.

Sorry it still doesn't prove anything. Try again later. 

Edited by sunni muslim
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32 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry it still doesn't prove anything. Try again later

:hahaha:

"Qadhi Abu Ya’la al-Farra al-Hanbali states in his Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah (The Rules of Governance):

It is permissible for a Caliph to appoint a successor without the approval of those in power…without the backing and presence of the prominent figures of the community. The logical reason behind this is that appointing someone a successor to the throne is not appointing his Caliph, or else, there will be two Caliphs; thus there is no need for the influential people to be present."

There are reasons for these sort of ahkaam in your fiqh. I can quote much more. So go to bed now and have some sleep. But before that, take the following history too where Abu Bakr is showing his will to people and commanding them to pledge allegiance to Umar:

"After writing in his will that Umar (رضّى الله عنه) was to be the Caliph, he asked Uthman (رضّى الله عنه) to read the will outloud to the people (i.e. the masses)"

At another place Abu Bakr's words are preserved:

"Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) said to the people:

Nor have I appointed (as Caliph) a relative.”

(The History of al-Tabari, Vol.11, p.147)

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Umar didn't want to appoint successor whether by himself nor by consulting. Abu bakr did that. Prophet didn't did that. Umar wanted to follow prophet.

Do you consider Abubakr was more knowledgeable than the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? He appointed his successor but the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not know that he should appoint his successor to avoid the ummah going astray?

This is illogical and against the verses of quran and hadith that define the prophet  most knowledgeable in the nation.

But the prophet has defined in clear words to follow Quran and Ahl albayt to follow the prophet by his true sunna coming from Ahl alabayt.

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Cool said:

Qadhi Abu Ya’la al-Farra al-Hanbali states in his Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah (The Rules of Governance):

It is permissible for a Caliph to appoint a successor without the approval of those in power…without the backing and presence of the prominent figures of the community. The logical reason behind this is that appointing someone a successor to the throne is not appointing his Caliph, or else, there will be two Caliphs; thus there is no need for the influential people to be present."

When did I said it is impermissable to do so. It is permissable but umar still doesn't wanted to do that since the prophet didn't appointed anyone. Abi bakr after consultation to prominent companions did. Umar wanted to follow prophet who was better than abu bakr. 

 

20 hours ago, Cool said:

There are reasons for these sort of ahkaam in your fiqh. I can quote much more. So go to bed now and have some sleep. But before that, take the following history too where Abu Bakr is showing his will to people and commanding them to pledge allegiance to Umar:

I know all of that. Don't try to teach me. Learn from me. You don't know the heck what you're even quoting. 

 

20 hours ago, Cool said:

At another place Abu Bakr's words are preserved:

"Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) said to the people:

Nor have I appointed (as Caliph) a relative.”

(The History of al-Tabari, Vol.11, p.147

Where did I deny abu bakr appointed umar as his successor. First learn to read. 

 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Do you consider Abubakr was more knowledgeable than the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

No

 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

He appointed his successor but the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not know that he should appoint his successor to avoid the ummah going astray?

Prophet didn't obliged his caliphs to not appoint anyone his caliph. A guy who doesn't follow a particular mustahab sunnah doesn't become an opposer of sunnah. Prophet coloured his hair and beard and commanded his followers to do. If anyone doesn't colour his hair or beard his entire life, it doesn't mean that he oppose the sunnah. Prophet never appointed members of bani hashim as governors, but ali did that. He appointed ubaydullah bin abbas, abdullah bin abbas, qutham bin abbas and many more as governors. So according to your logic, ali was more knowledgeable than the prophet. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Prophet didn't obliged his caliphs to not appoint anyone his caliph.

Here your statements are just contradictory and against the verses and hadith of quran that mentions the prophet as most knowledgeable, he did not know to appoint a successor but a non knowledgeable person was knowing it to do for avoiding it the ummah from going astray? What an illogical belief coming out from contradictory statements of sunnah?

If the prophet did not appoint the caliph / successor then by appointing a successor after him the companions have gone against the prophet sunnah of leaving the ummah without any successor? Why the companions at their own violated this sunnah?

But the reality is whatever you try to twist the meaning of truth coming from hadith ghadeer for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor and Mawla of the believers the certain truth comes out that there was no way left for the companions to bring the event of saqeefa in action, thus they went against the defined sunnah of the prophet declaring Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as mawala of believers and his successor.

We are just presenting the evidences and our views only inline with the verses of quran and hadith, its only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that opens someones hearts to the truth or not.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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13 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Here your statements are just contradictory and against the verses and hadith of quran that mentions the prophet as most knowledgeable, he did not know to appoint a successor but a non knowledgeable person was knowing it to do for avoiding it the ummah from going astray? What an illogical belief coming out from contradictory statements of sunnah?

If the prophet did not appoint the caliph / successor then by appointing a successor after him the companions have gone against the prophet sunnah of leaving the ummah without any successor? Why the companions at their own violated this sunnah?

But the reality is whatever you try to twist the meaning of truth coming from hadith ghadeer for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor and Mawla of the believers the certain truth comes out that there was no way left for the companions to bring the event of saqeefa in action, thus they went against the defined sunnah of the prophet declaring Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as mawala of believers and his successor.

We are just presenting the evidences and our views only inline with the verses of quran and hadith, its only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that opens someones hearts to the truth or not.

wasalam

Read the full argument and then try to refute. Don't act like 'cool'. 

 

35 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Prophet didn't obliged his caliphs to not appoint anyone his caliph. A guy who doesn't follow a particular mustahab sunnah doesn't become an opposer of sunnah. Prophet coloured his hair and beard and commanded his followers to do. If anyone doesn't colour his hair or beard his entire life, it doesn't mean that he oppose the sunnah. Prophet never appointed members of bani hashim as governors, but ali did that. He appointed ubaydullah bin abbas, abdullah bin abbas, qutham bin abbas and many more as governors. So according to your logic, ali was more knowledgeable than the prophet

Read this in full and then try to debunk. 

Peace. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Read the full argument and then try to refute. Don't act like 'cool'. 

Read this in full and then try to debunk. 

Peace. 

Checkmate for the one who has been debunked in this thread.

:hahaha::NH:

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

When did I said it is impermissable to do so. It is permissable but umar still doesn't wanted to do that since the prophet didn't appointed anyone. Abi bakr after consultation to prominent companions did. Umar wanted to follow prophet who was better than abu bakr. 

This is known as turning oneself into a pretzel to justify others actions, which are indefensible and incomprehensible. 

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

I know all of that. Don't try to teach me. Learn from me. You don't know the heck what you're even quoting

Don't try to teach me, learn from me , on how to be debunked in a devastating and demoralizing way.

58 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Checkmate for the one who has been debunked in this thread.

:hahaha::NH:

wasalam

Some people are just gluttons for punishment.

Must be some people have masochistic tendencies. 

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Here your statements are just contradictory and against the verses and hadith of quran .

What an illogical belief coming out from contradictory statements of sunnah?

What's new brothers , this is his modus operandi ....on ...every...single ...thread..

We might need to open a remedial course in Mantaq, that's Logic for those who conscientiously avoiding Mantaq completely in their arguments.

This thread is rapidly becoming hilariously surreal. It's great fun to watch people  try fight their way out of a paper bag of their own design.:hahaha:

We came, we attempted debunking,  and rapidly got debunked ourselves. Keystone cops and three stooges are missing members I think.

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22 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Prophet didn't did that

And you're telling people to learn to read, that first requires writer to learn to write brother. 

We are happy to offer remedial courses at our own expense in reading,  writing,  Mantaq .

I suspect may need  intro courses also in

  • Ilm al-Hadith (traditions)
  • 'Ilm ar-Rijal (evaluation of biographies)
  • Lugha (language studies)
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1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

When did I said it is impermissable to do so. It is permissable but umar still doesn't wanted to do that since the prophet didn't appointed anyone.

lol, I quoted the fatwa of Abu Ya'la just to show you that it was the Sunnah of Abu Bakr to appoint caliph without being discussing the matter with anyone:

21 hours ago, Cool said:

It is permissible for a Caliph to appoint a successor without the approval of those in power…without the backing and presence of the prominent figures of the community.

Abu Bakr did this. And the hadith of Sahih Muslim further testify this fact. 

Bang!! :hahaha:

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

I know all of that. Don't try to teach me. Learn from me. You don't know the heck what you're even quoting. 

And what should I learn from you Your Majesty? 100 meter sprint :hahaha:

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Where did I deny abu bakr appointed umar as his successor. First learn to read.

Your Majesty!! It is you who need to learn on urgent basis. I was talking with reference to your claim that Abu Bakr did the consultation prior to nominating Umar as his successor.

Here is a new version, even this version too deny what you have mentioned earlier on this thread:

"When Abu Bakr felt his own death approaching, he gathered his closest friends and advisers around him and informed them that their allegiance to him was over. Abu Bakr hoped that these men would choose his successor from among themselves. However, after much discussion Abu Bakr’s companions returned to him and asked him to choose for them for they trusted his choice beyond question. Abu Bakr chose Umar.
Some of the men around Abu Bakr voiced their concern that Umar, known to be a very harsh and tough man would be too hard on the people. Abu Bakr responded by saying that he considered Umar to be the best among them."

https://www.arabnews.com/umar-ibn-al-khattab-commander-faithful

It seems to me that there are 1000 mouths and there are 1000 stories. Everyone has fabricated his own story. But history & your own hadith categorically refutes every fabricated story 

Bang!!

I now request you your majesty to take some rest and make a new thread and a new target for debunking. 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, I quoted the fatwa of Abu Ya'la just to show you that it was the Sunnah of Abu Bakr to appoint caliph without being discussing the matter with anyone

And the fatwa didn't said anything about abu bakr. Try again. 

 

2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Abu Bakr did this. And the hadith of Sahih Muslim further testify this fact. 

Bang!! :hahaha:

Sahih muslim didn't include the fact that he consulted. Not being mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't happened genius. It would contradict if sahih muslim says that abu bakr didn't consult anyone. 

 

5 minutes ago, Cool said:

And what should I learn from you Your Majesty? 100 meter sprint :hahaha:

Fiqh, hadith, rijal everything. And also most importantly, staying on topic. The topic was is ghadeer vague or not. 

 

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

Here is a new version, even this version too deny what you have mentioned earlier on this thread:

"When Abu Bakr felt his own death approaching, he gathered his closest friends and advisers around him and informed them that their allegiance to him was over. Abu Bakr hoped that these men would choose his successor from among themselves. However, after much discussion Abu Bakr’s companions returned to him and asked him to choose for them for they trusted his choice beyond question. Abu Bakr chose Umar.
Some of the men around Abu Bakr voiced their concern that Umar, known to be a very harsh and tough man would be too hard on the people. Abu Bakr responded by saying that he considered Umar to be the best among them."

https://www.arabnews.com/umar-ibn-al-khattab-commander-faithful

It doesn't contradict what I said. It just doesn't include details such abu bakr consulting his companions. Not containing details doesn't mean the details never happened. 

 

7 minutes ago, Cool said:

It seems to me that there are 1000 mouths and there are 1000 stories. Everyone has fabricated his own story. But history & your own hadith categorically refutes every fabricated story

:blabla:

The topic was ghadeer. Ghadeer khum was absolutely vague and none of the companions understood it to be appointment. And hadith manzila was even more vague than that. Answer my arguments as to why this hadith is vague. Obviously you couldn't. And first learn what you're quoting. You neither can prove and none in this thread could prove why it is a clear proof for appointment. Had the prophet wanted to choose a successor, he would have said ali is my successor. He didn't. Your claim that prophet was afraid to announce Ali's wilayah is the most ridiculous argument. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2022 at 2:41 PM, sunni muslim said:

Indeed I can able to refute peshawar nights here. Post any argument here which you want to be debunked

Challenge accepted brother

Bold are my words

 

From Peshawar Night's 

Well-Wisher: That ‘Ali attained the rank of prophethood can be proven by the reference to the Hadith of ‘Manzila’ (Tradition Regarding Ranks), which has been unanimously narrated in more or less the same words. The last of the Holy prophets repeated a number of times and in different congregations: "Are you not content that you are to me what Aaron was to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me?" On other occasions he said to his followers: "‘Ali is to me as Aaron was to Moses."

Res Ipsa Loquitur 

Ali was a brother and successor to the prophet.

Since the prophet speaks with authority from  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Ali was the haroon like successor, and who was given control of administrative duties, justbas Haroon was given when Musa was away.

Not anyone else was given such admin duties ....and not as extensively documented, one hadith where many different companions led prayer is hardly even close in documentation.

 

Hafiz: The authenticity of this hadith has not been proven. Even if it were proven to be true, it would be a single narration and therefore unacceptable.

 

Authenticity of hadith of manzila from the usual sources

 

Well-Wisher: In providing information regarding the genuineness of this hadith, I will refer to your books. It is not a single narration. It has been authenticated by your own distinguished ulama’, like Suyuti, Hakim Nishapuri, and others, who have proved its reliability with unanimous sources. Some of them are the following:

 

(1) Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Volume III, the Book of Ghazawa, Qazwa Tabuk, p. 54, and in his book Bida'u'l-Khalq, p. 180;

 

(2) Muslim ibn Hajjaj in his Sahih, printed in Egypt, 1290 A.H., Volume II, under the heading, "The Merits of ‘Ali;" pages 236-7;

 

(3) Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal in ‘Musnad’, Volume I, "Grounds for Naming Husain," pages 98, 118, 119; and footnote of the same book, Part 5, page 31;

 

(4) Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i in ‘Khasa'isi'l-Alawiyya’, page 19;

 

(5) Muhammad ibn Sura Tirmidhi in his Jami';

 

(6) Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, Volume II, page 507;

 

(7) Ibn Hajar Makki in ‘Sawa'iq Muhriqa’, chapter 9, pages 30 and 34,

 

(8) Hakim Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah Nishapuri in ‘Mustadrak’, Volume III, page 109;

 

(9) Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in ‘Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa’, page 65;

 

(10) Ibn Abd Rabbih in ‘Iqdu'l-Farid’, Volume II, page 194;

 

(11) Ibn Abdu'l-Birr in ‘Isti'ab’, Volume 2, page 473;

 

(12) Muhammad ibn Sa'd Katib Waqidi in ‘Tabaqatu'l-Kubra’;

 

(13) Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi in ‘Tafsir Mafatihu'l-Ghaib’;

 

(14) Muhammad ibn Jarir Tabari in his ‘Tafsir’; as well as in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

 

(15) Sayyid Mu'min Shablanji in Nuru'l-Absar, page 68;

 

(16) Kamalu'd-Din Abu Salim Muhammad ibn Talha Shafi'i in ‘Matalibu's-Su'ul’, page 17;

 

(17) Mir Sayyid ‘Ali ibn Shahabu'd-Din Hamadani in ‘Mawaddatu'l-Qurba’, towards the end of Mawadda 7;

 

(18) Nuru'd-Din ‘Ali ibn Muhammad Maliki Makki, known as Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, in ‘Fusulu'l-Muhimma’, pages 23 and 125;

 

(19) ‘Ali ibn Burhanu'd-Din Shafi'i in ‘Siratu'l-Halabiyya’, Volume II, page 49;

 

(20) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in ‘Yanabiu'l-Mawadda’,

 

(21) Mulla ‘Ali Muttaqi in ‘Kanzu'l-Ummal’, Volume VI pages 152-153;

 

(22) Ahmad ibn ‘Ali Khatib in ‘Ta'rikh Baghdad’;

 

(23) Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in ‘Manaqib’;

(24) Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad Khawarizmi in ‘Manaqib’;

 

(25) Ibn Athir Jazari ‘Ali ibn Muhammad in ‘Usudu'l-Ghaiba’;

 

(26) Ibn Kathir Damishqi in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

 

(27) Ala'u'd-Daula Ahmad ibn Muhammad in ‘Urwatu'l-Wuthqa’;

 

(28) Ibn Athir Mubarak ibn Muhammad Shaibani in ‘Jami'u'l-Usul’;

 

(29) Ibn Hajar Asqalani in ‘Tahdhibu't-Tahdhib’;

 

(30) Abu'l Qasim Husain ibn Muhammad Raghib Isfahani in ‘Muhadhiratu'l-Udaba'’, Volume II page 212.

 

Many other eminent scholars of yours have narrated this grand ‘hadith’ with slight variations in words from many of the companions of the Holy Prophet, such as:

 

(1) ‘Umar ibn Khattab,

 

(2) Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas,

 

(3) Abdullah ibn Abbas,

 

(4) Abdullah ibn Mas'ud,

 

(5) Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari,

 

(6) Abu Huraira,

 

(7) Abu Sa'id Khudri,

 

(8) Jabir ibn Sumra,

 

(9) Malik ibn Huwairi's,

 

(10) Bara'a ibn 'Azib,

 

(11) Zaid ibn Arqam,

 

(12) Abu Rafi',

 

(13) Abdullah ibn Ubai,

 

(14) Abu Suraiha,

 

(15) Hudhaifa ibn Assad,

 

(16) Anas ibn Malik,

 

(17) Abu Huraira Aslami,

 

(18) Abu Ayyub Ansari,

 

(19) Sa'id ibn Musayyab,

 

(20) Habib ibn Abi Thabit,

 

(21) Sharhbil ibn Sa'd,

 

(22) Umm Salma (wife of the Holy Prophet),

 

(23) Asma bint Umais (wife of Abu Bakr),

 

(24) Aqil ibn Abi Talib,

 

(25) Mu'awiya ibn Abu Sufyan, and a host of other companions. In short, all of them have related with slight variation of words that the Holy Prophet (S) said: "O ‘Ali, you are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me."

Are all these great ulama’ - and there are many I have not mentioned - not sufficient to prove that this hadith has been unanimously accepted as true? Would you now confirm that you were under a misunderstanding?

,Since you assume an attitude of doubt in regard to the veracity of this hadith, you should consult Kifayatu't-Talib fi Manaqib al-’Ali Ibn Abu Talib, chapter 7, compiled by Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, who is one of the most prominent ulama’ of your sect. After quoting six hadith in praise of ‘Ali, this author comments (page 149) on this hadith as follows:

 

"This is a hadith whose authenticity has been acknowledged by all. It has been narrated by the most learned Imams and Huffaz (those who know the Qur'an by heart), like Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Muslim ibn Hujjaj in his Sahih, Abu Dawud in his Sunan, Abu Isa Tirmidhi in his Jami', Abu Abdu'r-Rahman in his Sunan, Ibn Maja Qazwini in his Sunan. All of them have unanimously acknowledged its authenticity. Hakim Nishapuri has said that this hadith has entered the stage of continuity."

 

I'm sure that I needn't present further evidence to show that this hadith is genuine.

Please debunk Away.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Are you not content that you are to me what Aaron was to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me?"

This hadith is authentic and rather mutawatir. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

On other occasions he said to his followers: "‘Ali is to me as Aaron was to Moses

This version is weak. It is related in tarikh damishq, and many other sources. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Well-Wisher: That ‘Ali attained the rank of prophethood can be proven by the reference to the Hadith of ‘Manzila’ (Tradition Regarding Ranks), which has been unanimously narrated in more or less the same words. The last of the Holy prophets repeated a number of times and in different congregations: "Are you not content that you are to me what Aaron was to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me?" On other occasions he said to his followers: "‘Ali is to me as Aaron was to Moses."

 

Hafiz: The authenticity of this hadith has not been proven. Even if it were proven to be true, it would be a single narration and therefore unacceptable.

 

Authenticity of hadith of manzila from the usual sources

 

Well-Wisher: In providing information regarding the genuineness of this hadith, I will refer to your books. It is not a single narration. It has been authenticated by your own distinguished ulama’, like Suyuti, Hakim Nishapuri, and others, who have proved its reliability with unanimous sources. Some of them are the following:

 

(1) Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Volume III, the Book of Ghazawa, Qazwa Tabuk, p. 54, and in his book Bida'u'l-Khalq, p. 180;

 

(2) Muslim ibn Hajjaj in his Sahih, printed in Egypt, 1290 A.H., Volume II, under the heading, "The Merits of ‘Ali;" pages 236-7;

 

(3) Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal in ‘Musnad’, Volume I, "Grounds for Naming Husain," pages 98, 118, 119; and footnote of the same book, Part 5, page 31;

 

(4) Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i in ‘Khasa'isi'l-Alawiyya’, page 19;

 

(5) Muhammad ibn Sura Tirmidhi in his Jami';

 

(6) Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, Volume II, page 507;

 

(7) Ibn Hajar Makki in ‘Sawa'iq Muhriqa’, chapter 9, pages 30 and 34,

 

(8) Hakim Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah Nishapuri in ‘Mustadrak’, Volume III, page 109;

 

(9) Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in ‘Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa’, page 65;

 

(10) Ibn Abd Rabbih in ‘Iqdu'l-Farid’, Volume II, page 194;

 

(11) Ibn Abdu'l-Birr in ‘Isti'ab’, Volume 2, page 473;

 

(12) Muhammad ibn Sa'd Katib Waqidi in ‘Tabaqatu'l-Kubra’;

 

(13) Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi in ‘Tafsir Mafatihu'l-Ghaib’;

 

(14) Muhammad ibn Jarir Tabari in his ‘Tafsir’; as well as in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

 

(15) Sayyid Mu'min Shablanji in Nuru'l-Absar, page 68;

 

(16) Kamalu'd-Din Abu Salim Muhammad ibn Talha Shafi'i in ‘Matalibu's-Su'ul’, page 17;

 

(17) Mir Sayyid ‘Ali ibn Shahabu'd-Din Hamadani in ‘Mawaddatu'l-Qurba’, towards the end of Mawadda 7;

 

(18) Nuru'd-Din ‘Ali ibn Muhammad Maliki Makki, known as Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, in ‘Fusulu'l-Muhimma’, pages 23 and 125;

 

(19) ‘Ali ibn Burhanu'd-Din Shafi'i in ‘Siratu'l-Halabiyya’, Volume II, page 49;

 

(20) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in ‘Yanabiu'l-Mawadda’,

 

(21) Mulla ‘Ali Muttaqi in ‘Kanzu'l-Ummal’, Volume VI pages 152-153;

 

(22) Ahmad ibn ‘Ali Khatib in ‘Ta'rikh Baghdad’;

 

(23) Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in ‘Manaqib’;

(24) Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad Khawarizmi in ‘Manaqib’;

 

(25) Ibn Athir Jazari ‘Ali ibn Muhammad in ‘Usudu'l-Ghaiba’;

 

(26) Ibn Kathir Damishqi in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

 

(27) Ala'u'd-Daula Ahmad ibn Muhammad in ‘Urwatu'l-Wuthqa’;

 

(28) Ibn Athir Mubarak ibn Muhammad Shaibani in ‘Jami'u'l-Usul’;

 

(29) Ibn Hajar Asqalani in ‘Tahdhibu't-Tahdhib’;

 

(30) Abu'l Qasim Husain ibn Muhammad Raghib Isfahani in ‘Muhadhiratu'l-Udaba'’, Volume II page 212.

 

Many other eminent scholars of yours have narrated this grand ‘hadith’ with slight variations in words from many of the companions of the Holy Prophet, such as:

 

(1) ‘Umar ibn Khattab,

 

(2) Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas,

 

(3) Abdullah ibn Abbas,

 

(4) Abdullah ibn Mas'ud,

 

(5) Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari,

 

(6) Abu Huraira,

 

(7) Abu Sa'id Khudri,

 

(8) Jabir ibn Sumra,

 

(9) Malik ibn Huwairi's,

 

(10) Bara'a ibn 'Azib,

 

(11) Zaid ibn Arqam,

 

(12) Abu Rafi',

 

(13) Abdullah ibn Ubai,

 

(14) Abu Suraiha,

 

(15) Hudhaifa ibn Assad,

 

(16) Anas ibn Malik,

 

(17) Abu Huraira Aslami,

 

(18) Abu Ayyub Ansari,

 

(19) Sa'id ibn Musayyab,

 

(20) Habib ibn Abi Thabit,

 

(21) Sharhbil ibn Sa'd,

 

(22) Umm Salma (wife of the Holy Prophet),

 

(23) Asma bint Umais (wife of Abu Bakr),

 

(24) Aqil ibn Abi Talib,

 

(25) Mu'awiya ibn Abu Sufyan, and a host of other companions. In short, all of them have related with slight variation of words that the Holy Prophet (S) said: "O ‘Ali, you are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me."

Are all these great ulama’ - and there are many I have not mentioned - not sufficient to prove that this hadith has been unanimously accepted as true? Would you now confirm that you were under a misunderstanding?

,Since you assume an attitude of doubt in regard to the veracity of this hadith, you should consult Kifayatu't-Talib fi Manaqib al-’Ali Ibn Abu Talib, chapter 7, compiled by Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, who is one of the most prominent ulama’ of your sect. After quoting six hadith in praise of ‘Ali, this author comments (page 149) on this hadith as follows:

 

"This is a hadith whose authenticity has been acknowledged by all. It has been narrated by the most learned Imams and Huffaz (those who know the Qur'an by heart), like Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Muslim ibn Hujjaj in his Sahih, Abu Dawud in his Sunan, Abu Isa Tirmidhi in his Jami', Abu Abdu'r-Rahman in his Sunan, Ibn Maja Qazwini in his Sunan. All of them have unanimously acknowledged its authenticity. Hakim Nishapuri has said that this hadith has entered the stage of continuity."

 

I'm sure that I needn't present further evidence to show that this hadith is genuine.

Please debunk Away.

 

Why should I debunk it. Ahlus sunnah doesn't believe that hadith manzila is weak or fabricated. The hadith doesn't prove anything regarding Ali's appointment. All it shows are the merits of ali which we never denied. 

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1 minute ago, sunni muslim said:

This hadith is authentic and rather mutawatir. 

 

This version is weak. It is related in tarikh damishq, and many other sources. 

 

Why should I debunk it. Ahlus sunnah doesn't believe that hadith manzila is weak or fabricated. The hadith doesn't prove anything regarding Ali's appointment. All it shows are the merits of ali which we never denied. 

do you have any sort of equivalent hadith for another caliph?

guess not , weak sauce bro

You said you can debunk 

8 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:
On 8/12/2022 at 2:41 PM, sunni muslim said:

Indeed I can able to refute peshawar nights here. Post any argument here which you want to be debunked

Guess another example of the brave debunked getting debunked .

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1 minute ago, Hasani Samnani said:

do you have any sort of equivalent hadith for another caliph?

We have. Even better than it. 

 

1 minute ago, Hasani Samnani said:

You said you can debunk

Indeed I said I will debunk. But i don't debunk shias in which I agree with them. Sunnis and shias agreed in the merits of ali in the opposition of khawarij and nawasib. 

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Let's try again  debunk master 

Well-Wisher: I am not merely talking. My argument is completely logical. The companions broke their pledge a number of times. They broke the fealty for which the Prophet of Allah had commanded them; the most important was the pledge and fealty at Ghadir al-Khum.

Ghadir Hadith and its nature

All the Shi’as and Sunni ulama’ acknowledge that, in the 10th of the Hijra year, the Prophet of Allah, returning from his last pilgrimage, gathered together all his companions at Ghadir al-Khum on the 18th of Dhi'l-Hijja. Some of those who had gone ahead were called back by order of the Holy Prophet and those who had lagged behind were awaited.

Most of your ulama’ and the historians and the Shi’as sources give the figure of 70,000 people there, and some of your other ulama’, for instance Tha'labi in his Tafsir, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkirat'u- Khasa'isi'l-Umma fi Ma'rifati'l-A'imma and others have written that there were 120,000 people gathered there.

The Holy Prophet ordered a pulpit to be prepared. He mounted the pulpit and delivered a long sermon, a greater part of which contained the virtues and merits of the Commander of the Faithful. He recited most of the verses, which had been revealed in praise of ‘Ali and reminded the people of the Holy rank of the vicegerency of the Commander of the Faithful. Then the Holy Prophet said, "O you people! Have I not the greater claim than you have on your lives?" The reference is to the Holy verse

"The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves." (33:6)

The crowd with one voice shouted "Certainly, O messenger of Allah!" Then the Holy Prophet declared: "Of whomsoever I am the maula, (master) this ‘Ali is his maula." After this he raised his hand and prayed to Allah. "O Allah, be you a friend to him who is a friend to him (that is, ‘Ali) and be an enemy to him who is an enemy to him (‘Ali). Help him who helps him and forsake him who forsakes him.

Then a tent was pitched by order of the Holy Prophet who ordered the Commander of the Faithful, ‘Ali to sit in the tent. The whole umma was commanded to offer bai'at (allegiance) to ‘Ali. The Holy Prophet said that he gave this instruction in compliance with the command of Allah. The first one to offer allegiance on that day was ‘Umar. Then Abu Bakr, Uthman, Talha, and Zubair followed suit, and all these people continued offering allegiance for three days (i.e., while the Holy Prophet remained there).

Hafiz: Can you believe that an event of such importance occurred as claimed by you and that none of the prominent ulama’ have reported it?

Well-Wisher: I did not expect such a statement from you. The Ghadir al-Khum affair is as clear as day and no one but a bigoted and obstinate person would invite ignominy by denying such an event. This important matter has been recorded by all your pious ulama’ in their authentic books. I should like to mention here some of the names of the authors and their books so that you may know that all your eminent ulama’ have relied on this hadith.

1. Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi - Tafsir al-Kabir Mafatihu'l-Ghaib.

2. Imam Ahmad Tha'labi - Tafsir al-Kashfu'l-Bayan.

3. Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti - Tafsir al-Durru'l-Manthur.

4. Abu'l-Hasan ‘Ali Ibn Ahmad Wahidi Nishapuri - Asbabu'n- Nuzul.

5. Muhammad Ibn Jarir Tabari - Tafsiru'l-Kabir.

6. Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ma Nazal Mina'l-Qur'an fi ‘Ali and Hilyatu'l-Auliya.

 

7. Muhammad Ibn Isma'il Bukhari - Ta'rikh, Vol.1, p.375.

 

8. Muslim Ibn Hajjaj Nishapuri - Sahih, Vol.2, p.325.

 

9. Abu Dawud Sijistani - Sunan.

 

11. Hafiz Ibnu'l-Iqda - Kitabu'l-Wilaya.

 

12. Ibn Kathir Shafi'i Damishqi - Ta'rikh.

 

13. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal - Vol.4, pp.281&371.

 

14. Abu Hamid Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Al-Ghazali - Sirru'l-Alamin.

 

15. Ibn Abdu'l-Birr - Isti'ab.

 

16. Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i - Matalibu's-Su'ul, p.16.

 

17. Ibn Maghazili Faqih Shafi'i - Manaqib.

 

18. Nuru'-d-Din Ibn Sabbagh Maliki - Fusulu'l-Muhimma.

 

19. Husain Ibn Mas'ud Baghawi - Masabihu's-Sunna.

 

20. Abu'l-Mu'ayyid Muwafiq Ibn Ahmad Khatib Khawarizmi - Manaqib.

 

21. Majdu'd-Din Ibn Athir Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Shaibani -am'u'l-Usul.

 

22. Hafiz Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Ahmad Ibn ‘Ali Nisa'i - Khasa'isu'l-Alawi and Sunan.

 

23. Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi - Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch. IV.

 

24. Shahabu'd-din Ahmad Ibn Hajar Makki - Sawa'iq Muhriqa and Kitabu'l-Manhu'l-Malakiyya, particularly Sawa'iq, Part 1, p.25. In spite of his extreme fanaticism, he says: "This is a true hadith; its veracity cannot be doubted. Verily it has been narrated by Tirmidhi, Nisa'i and Ahmad, and if studied, its sources are sound enough."

 

25. Muhammad Ibn Yazid Hafiz Ibn Maja Qazwini - Sunan.

 

26. Hafiz Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Hakim Nishapuri-Mustadrak.

 

27. Hafiz Sulayman Ibn Ahmad Tabrani - Ausat.

 

28. Ibn Athir Jazari - Usudu'l-Ghaiba.

 

29. Yusuf Sibt Ibn Jauzi - Tadhkiratu'l-Khasa'isu'l-Umma, p. 17.

 

30. Abu ‘Umar Ahmad Ibn Abd Rabbih - Iqdu'l-Farid.

 

31. Allama Samhudi - Jawahiru'l-Iqdain.

 

32. Ibn Taimiyya Ahmad Ibn Abdu'l-Halim - Minhaju's-Sunna.

 

33. Ibn Hajar Asqalani - Fathu'l-Bari and Tahdhibu't-Tahdhib.

 

34. Abdu'l-Qasim Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar Jarullah Zamakhshari - Rabiu'l-Abrar.

 

35. Abu Sa'id Sijistani - Kitabu'd-Darayab Fi hadithi'l-Wilaya.

 

36. Ubaidullah Ibn Abdullah Haskani - Du'atu'l-Huda Ila Ada Haqqi'l-Muwala.

 

37. Razin Ibn Mu'awiya Al-Abdari - Jam Bainu's-Sahihi's-Sitta.

 

38. Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi says in Kitabu'l-Arba'in that the whole Community unanimously confirms this hadith.

 

39. Muqibili - hadithu'l-Mutawatira.

 

40. Suyuti - Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa.

 

41. Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamadani - Mawaddatu'l-Qurba.

 

42. Abul Fath Nazari - Khasa'es'u'l-Alavi

 

43. Khwaja Parsa Bukhari - Faslu'l-Khitab

 

44. Jamaluddin Shirazi - Kitabu'l-Araba'in

 

45. Abdul Ra'ufu'l-Manavi - Faizu'l-Qadir fi 

 

46. Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i - Kifayatu't-Talib, Part. 1

 

47. Yahya Ibn Sharaf-Nauvi - Tehzibu'l-Asma wa'l-Lughat

 

48. Ibrahim ibn Muhammad Hamwaini - Fara'adu's-Simtoun

 

49. Qazi Fazlullah ibn Ruzhahan - Ibtalu'l-Batil

 

50. Shamsuddin Muhammad ibn Ahmad Sharbini - Siraju'l-Munir

 

51. Abul Fath Shahristani Shafi'i - Milal wa'n-Nihal

 

52. Hafiz Abu Bakr Khatib Baghdadi - Tarikh

 

53. Hafiz Ibn Asakir abul Qasim Damishqi - Tarikh-i-Kabir

 

54. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mutazali - Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha

 

55. Ala'uddin Samnani -Urwatu'l-Wuthqah

 

56. Ibn Khaldun - Muqaddima

 

57. Molvi ‘Ali Muttaqi Hindi - Kanzu'l-Ummal

 

58. Shamsuddin Abul Khair Damishqi - Asnu Matalib

 

59. Syed Sharif Hanafi Jurjani - Sharh-i-Mawaqit

 

60. Nizamuddin Nishapuri - Tafsir-i-Ghara'ibu'l-Qur'an

 

 

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Just now, sunni muslim said:

And the fatwa didn't said anything about abu bakr. Try again. 

Its the seerah of your Shekhain from which you deduce your religious laws. Even the 6 member committee presented the seerah of shekhayn as term before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which he refused and said I only rule by the book of Allah & Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Here is what your history books wrote:

"Abdul-Rahman took his hand and said: “Would you give me your Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger and the (actions) of Abu Bakr and Umar?”

Ali replied: “By Allah no, but on my own exertion of that and my knowledge” – (i.e. I would give you my Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger according to my own exertion of that and my knowledge of them.) “As for the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar, I do not adhere myself to them but exert my own opinion.”

Abdul-Rahman then released his hand and called: “Come to me O Uthman!” He took his hand as he stood on the spot where Ali stood earlier and said to him: “Would you give me your Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger as well as the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar?” Uthman replied, “By Allah yes.” Upon this Abdul-Rahman looked up to the roof of the mosque with his hand clutching that of Uthman and said: “O Allah! Hear and witness; O Allah, I have put what was in my neck of that (matter) in the neck of Uthman.”

3 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Sahih muslim didn't include the fact that he consulted. Not being mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't happened genius. It would contradict if sahih muslim says that abu bakr didn't consult anyone

lol, so your own books become vague for you now :hahaha:

Do you have Bay'ah on your neck? If yes, who is that? According to your Sahih Hadith:

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Whoever dies while having no Bay’ah on his neck he dies the death of the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah).

According to your scholars, this hadith  makes it Fard Al-‘Ain (individual duty) for all Muslims to have a Bay’ah on their neck whether they are in Dar ul-Islam or outside.

Bang!!

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

We have. Even better than

with the same depth of proof , really...why didn't you prove it then.

bring it on bro and lets see you debunk the ghadir hadith as requested , looks like Rasoolullah was so clear that he made sahaba make bayat....this the reason for the ridda wars, the tribes of Arabia has knowledge of the illegitimacy of the machiavellian regime,  and being Bedouin Arabs of honour,  then felt ones word was a bond.

 

I realize it's hard to get past the cognitive dissonance that sets In once ones entire belief foundation is demolished.

 I feel empathy for you brother, truly.

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2 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Let's try again  debunk master

Sure. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Well-Wisher: I am not merely talking. My argument is completely logical. The companions broke their pledge a number of times. They broke the fealty for which the Prophet of Allah had commanded them; the most important was the pledge and fealty at Ghadir al-Khum.

Absolutely false. Noone gave pledge of allegiance to ali. All those ahadith are weak and fabricated. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

All the Shi’as and Sunni ulama’ acknowledge that, in the 10th of the Hijra year, the Prophet of Allah, returning from his last pilgrimage, gathered together all his companions at Ghadir al-Khum on the 18th of Dhi'l-Hijja. Some of those who had gone ahead were called back by order of the Holy Prophet and those who had lagged behind were awaited

That's true. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Most of your ulama’ and the historians and the Shi’as sources give the figure of 70,000 people there, and some of your other ulama’, for instance Tha'labi in his Tafsir, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkirat'u- Khasa'isi'l-Umma fi Ma'rifati'l-A'imma and others have written that there were 120,000 people gathered there.

That's false. Thalabi tafseer is filled with fabrications and sibt ibn jawzi is an extremist shia as mentioned by dhahabi in his meezan ul aitedal. And the claim that there were 120000 companions at ghadeer is utterly ridiculous. They were returning to medina and only companions who lived in medina were only there. Meccans stayed where they were, yemenis went back to yemen. It's the shia who differed as to how many companions were there. Ayyashi claimed there were 10000 al-'Ayyashi, Vol.1, P.332, at other places he claimed there were 12000. Tabrasi claimed there were 70000 (ihtijaj vol 1 p56) 

 

12 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

He mounted the pulpit and delivered a long sermon, a greater part of which contained the virtues and merits of the Commander of the Faithful.

True. 

 

15 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

He recited most of the verses, which had been revealed in praise of ‘Ali and reminded the people of the Holy rank of the vicegerency of the Commander of the Faithful

This is false. Prophet didn't recite any quranic verse which was supposedly revealed in praise of ali. 

 

16 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Then the Holy Prophet said, "O you people! Have I not the greater claim than you have on your lives?" The reference is to the Holy verse

"The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves." (33:6)

The crowd with one voice shouted "Certainly, O messenger of Allah!" Then the Holy Prophet declared: "Of whomsoever I am the maula, (master) this ‘Ali is his maula." After this he raised his hand and prayed to Allah. "O Allah, be you a friend to him who is a friend to him (that is, ‘Ali) and be an enemy to him who is an enemy to him (‘Ali

This is authentic. No problem. 

 

16 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Help him who helps him and forsake him who forsakes him

This a weak addition. There is no authentic chain of these additional words. 

 

17 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Then a tent was pitched by order of the Holy Prophet who ordered the Commander of the Faithful, ‘Ali to sit in the tent. The whole umma was commanded to offer bai'at (allegiance) to ‘Ali. The Holy Prophet said that he gave this instruction in compliance with the command of Allah. The first one to offer allegiance on that day was ‘Umar. Then Abu Bakr, Uthman, Talha, and Zubair followed suit, and all these people continued offering allegiance for three days (i.e., while the Holy Prophet remained there

This is false. Noone gave bayah to ali on that day. As mentioned earlier, there is only two narrations which says umar congratulated ali. One is weak due to ali bin zaid and second one is fabricated due to it's matn which says that ikmal verse was revealed on ghadeer which is in contrast with an agreed upon hadith of ibn abbas that this verse was revealed in arafat. 

21 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Hafiz: Can you believe that an event of such importance occurred as claimed by you and that none of the prominent ulama’ have reported it?

This sunni hafiz is either extremely ignorant or it is just a fictional character. None of the ahlus sunnah denied that hadith. Nor did ahlus sunnah denie the merits of ali. 

 

23 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Well-Wisher: I did not expect such a statement from you. The Ghadir al-Khum affair is as clear as day and no one but a bigoted and obstinate person would invite ignominy by denying such an event. This important matter has been recorded by all your pious ulama’ in their authentic books. I should like to mention here some of the names of the authors and their books so that you may know that all your eminent ulama’ have relied on this hadith.

1. Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi - Tafsir al-Kabir Mafatihu'l-Ghaib.

2. Imam Ahmad Tha'labi - Tafsir al-Kashfu'l-Bayan.

3. Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti - Tafsir al-Durru'l-Manthur.

4. Abu'l-Hasan ‘Ali Ibn Ahmad Wahidi Nishapuri - Asbabu'n- Nuzul.

5. Muhammad Ibn Jarir Tabari - Tafsiru'l-Kabir.

6. Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ma Nazal Mina'l-Qur'an fi ‘Ali and Hilyatu'l-Auliya.

 

7. Muhammad Ibn Isma'il Bukhari - Ta'rikh, Vol.1, p.375.

 

8. Muslim Ibn Hajjaj Nishapuri - Sahih, Vol.2, p.325.

 

9. Abu Dawud Sijistani - Sunan.

 

11. Hafiz Ibnu'l-Iqda - Kitabu'l-Wilaya.

 

12. Ibn Kathir Shafi'i Damishqi - Ta'rikh.

 

13. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal - Vol.4, pp.281&371.

 

14. Abu Hamid Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Al-Ghazali - Sirru'l-Alamin.

 

15. Ibn Abdu'l-Birr - Isti'ab.

 

16. Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i - Matalibu's-Su'ul, p.16.

 

17. Ibn Maghazili Faqih Shafi'i - Manaqib.

 

18. Nuru'-d-Din Ibn Sabbagh Maliki - Fusulu'l-Muhimma.

 

19. Husain Ibn Mas'ud Baghawi - Masabihu's-Sunna.

 

20. Abu'l-Mu'ayyid Muwafiq Ibn Ahmad Khatib Khawarizmi - Manaqib.

 

21. Majdu'd-Din Ibn Athir Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Shaibani -am'u'l-Usul.

 

22. Hafiz Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Ahmad Ibn ‘Ali Nisa'i - Khasa'isu'l-Alawi and Sunan.

 

23. Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi - Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch. IV.

 

24. Shahabu'd-din Ahmad Ibn Hajar Makki - Sawa'iq Muhriqa and Kitabu'l-Manhu'l-Malakiyya, particularly Sawa'iq, Part 1, p.25. In spite of his extreme fanaticism, he says: "This is a true hadith; its veracity cannot be doubted. Verily it has been narrated by Tirmidhi, Nisa'i and Ahmad, and if studied, its sources are sound enough."

 

25. Muhammad Ibn Yazid Hafiz Ibn Maja Qazwini - Sunan.

 

26. Hafiz Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Hakim Nishapuri-Mustadrak.

 

27. Hafiz Sulayman Ibn Ahmad Tabrani - Ausat.

 

28. Ibn Athir Jazari - Usudu'l-Ghaiba.

 

29. Yusuf Sibt Ibn Jauzi - Tadhkiratu'l-Khasa'isu'l-Umma, p. 17.

 

30. Abu ‘Umar Ahmad Ibn Abd Rabbih - Iqdu'l-Farid.

 

31. Allama Samhudi - Jawahiru'l-Iqdain.

 

32. Ibn Taimiyya Ahmad Ibn Abdu'l-Halim - Minhaju's-Sunna.

 

33. Ibn Hajar Asqalani - Fathu'l-Bari and Tahdhibu't-Tahdhib.

 

34. Abdu'l-Qasim Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar Jarullah Zamakhshari - Rabiu'l-Abrar.

 

35. Abu Sa'id Sijistani - Kitabu'd-Darayab Fi hadithi'l-Wilaya.

 

36. Ubaidullah Ibn Abdullah Haskani - Du'atu'l-Huda Ila Ada Haqqi'l-Muwala.

 

37. Razin Ibn Mu'awiya Al-Abdari - Jam Bainu's-Sahihi's-Sitta.

 

38. Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi says in Kitabu'l-Arba'in that the whole Community unanimously confirms this hadith.

 

39. Muqibili - hadithu'l-Mutawatira.

 

40. Suyuti - Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa.

 

41. Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamadani - Mawaddatu'l-Qurba.

 

42. Abul Fath Nazari - Khasa'es'u'l-Alavi

 

43. Khwaja Parsa Bukhari - Faslu'l-Khitab

 

44. Jamaluddin Shirazi - Kitabu'l-Araba'in

 

45. Abdul Ra'ufu'l-Manavi - Faizu'l-Qadir fi 

 

46. Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i - Kifayatu't-Talib, Part. 1

 

47. Yahya Ibn Sharaf-Nauvi - Tehzibu'l-Asma wa'l-Lughat

 

48. Ibrahim ibn Muhammad Hamwaini - Fara'adu's-Simtoun

 

49. Qazi Fazlullah ibn Ruzhahan - Ibtalu'l-Batil

 

50. Shamsuddin Muhammad ibn Ahmad Sharbini - Siraju'l-Munir

 

51. Abul Fath Shahristani Shafi'i - Milal wa'n-Nihal

 

52. Hafiz Abu Bakr Khatib Baghdadi - Tarikh

 

53. Hafiz Ibn Asakir abul Qasim Damishqi - Tarikh-i-Kabir

 

54. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mutazali - Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha

 

55. Ala'uddin Samnani -Urwatu'l-Wuthqah

 

56. Ibn Khaldun - Muqaddima

 

57. Molvi ‘Ali Muttaqi Hindi - Kanzu'l-Ummal

 

58. Shamsuddin Abul Khair Damishqi - Asnu Matalib

 

59. Syed Sharif Hanafi Jurjani - Sharh-i-Mawaqit

 

60. Nizamuddin Nishapuri - Tafsir-i-Ghara'ibu'l-Qur'an

 

 

What this guy said is true. Ghadeer event is authentic. Shia just mix up ghadeer event with weak and fabricated reports. We agree with you scholar in this part. As mentioned earlier, I don't debunk Shiites in which I agree with them. 

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4 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Let's try again  debunk master

Exactly which Ghadeer narration we are talking about and from which historical lenses we are looking from? 

If you look at shia ghadeer narration, well there is no vague at all about the leadership. We have narration that majority apostated because they did not supported Imam Ali leadership but later they returned. 

But it is possible from sunni version to be vague if you think that the Prophet did not established an context that talks about authority (when he clearly did) in their ghadeer narration. Sunni Muslim says that sahaba did not understood ghadeer as appointment of leadership but that is only supported from Sunni narrative and their historical narrative. 

I really don't see any point in this discussion, because the OP will just refute using his sunni narrative. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Absolutely false. Noone gave pledge of allegiance to ali. All those ahadith are weak and fabricated

No one, more grammar nazi I realize, but gives you more credibility.

forgive me but there are 60 references , your calling a hadith weak or fabricated is hardly a debunking,  in fact your inability to negate all the references proves our argument profoundly.

You made three examples , the bayah is quoted more than 60 times, read the Arabic brother and the peshawar nights...the setting : first agreed to debate where your own prominent ulema insisted on only accepted sunni sources , if we go into Shia sources we risk referencing in the hundreds.

It would be helpful to peruse the book, unless you're afraid your misconceptions might be shaken to the core. People with no fear , have no problem reading books anti thetical to their beliefs. I have read most of the anti Shia screeds, since I am unafraid and have my Imam on my side,  even though you fail to acknowledge his existence and his help for his followers.

I don't consider myself a loyal follower yet, but continue to aim that way.

Fear should never be part of our muslim eeman.

 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

with the same depth of proof , really...why didn't you prove it then.

If you think that i would show you hadith in which peophet appointed abu bakr as his successor, then you misunderstood me. We don't believe abu bakr was appointed by the prophet. I meant that we have hadith which is greater in terms of merit. 

Jundub reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I am innocent before Allah of taking any of you as my best friend. Verily, Allah Almighty has taken me as His best friend, just as he took Abraham as His best friend. If I were to take anyone of my nation as a best friend, it would have been Abu Bakr. Verily, those before you would take the graves of their prophets and righteous as places of prayer. Do not take graves as places of prayer. I forbid you from doing so.”

 

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 532

 

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim

 

عن جندب عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ إِنِّي أَبْرَأُ إِلَى اللَّهِ أَنْ يَكُونَ لِي مِنْكُمْ خَلِيلٌ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى قَدِ اتَّخَذَنِي خَلِيلاً كَمَا اتَّخَذَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ خَلِيلاً وَلَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا مِنْ أُمَّتِي خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ خَلِيلاً أَلاَ وَإِنَّ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ كَانُوا يَتَّخِذُونَ قُبُورَ أَنْبِيَائِهِمْ وَصَالِحِيهِمْ مَسَاجِدَ أَلاَ فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُوا الْقُبُورَ مَسَاجِدَ إِنِّي أَنْهَاكُمْ عَنْ ذَلِكَ

 

532 صحيح مسلم كتاب المساجد ومواضع الصلاة باب النهي عن بناء المساجد على القبور واتخاذ الصور فيها والنهي عن اتخاذ القبور مساجد

Allah taking prophet and ibrahim is a greater relation than that of musa and haroon. 

51 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

bring it on bro and lets see you debunk the ghadir hadith as requested

I already debunked. I already proved that it is vague. Try answer those arguments if you can. 

 

51 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

looks like Rasoolullah was so clear that he made sahaba make bayat

As mentioned earlier this a weak hadeeth. 

 

51 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

this the reason for the ridda wars, the tribes of Arabia has knowledge of the illegitimacy of the machiavellian regime,  and being Bedouin Arabs of honour,  then felt ones word was a bond.

 

There is no proof of that. If arabs fighting abu bakr is a proof that he is an illegitimate caliph then the same thing would be applied to ali as 1/3 of Muslims fought him, and many of those who fought him considered him an unbeliever. 

 

51 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

I realize it's hard to get past the cognitive dissonance that sets In once ones entire belief foundation is demolished.

Nah bro. It was me who demolished your foundation which is imamah in an another thread. It is easier to debunk imamah which is just filled with philosophical mumbo jumbo than to drink water. 

 

54 minutes ago, Cool said:

Its the seerah of your Shekhain from which you deduce your religious laws

 

54 minutes ago, Cool said:

Even the 6 member committee presented the seerah of shekhayn as term before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which he refused and said I only rule by the book of Allah & Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Here is what your history books wrote:

"Abdul-Rahman took his hand and said: “Would you give me your Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger and the (actions) of Abu Bakr and Umar?”

Ali replied: “By Allah no, but on my own exertion of that and my knowledge” – (i.e. I would give you my Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger according to my own exertion of that and my knowledge of them.) “As for the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar, I do not adhere myself to them but exert my own opinion.”

Abdul-Rahman then released his hand and called: “Come to me O Uthman!” He took his hand as he stood on the spot where Ali stood earlier and said to him: “Would you give me your Bay’ah according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger as well as the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar?” Uthman replied, “By Allah yes.” Upon this Abdul-Rahman looked up to the roof of the mosque with his hand clutching that of Uthman and said: “O Allah! Hear and witness; O Allah, I have put what was in my neck of that (matter) in the neck of Uthman.”

This is false. This is the actual narration. فَقَالَ: إِنِّي قَدْ سَأَلْتُ عَنْكُمَا وَعَنْ غَيْرِكُمَا، فَلَمْ أَجِدِ النَّاسَ يَعْدِلُونَ بِكُمَا، هَلْ أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ فَقَالَ: اللَّهُمَّ لا، وَلَكِنْ عَلَى جَهْدِي مِنْ ذَلِكَ وَطَاقَتِي.

فَالْتَفَتَ إِلَى عُثْمَانَ، فَقَالَ: هَلْ أَنْتَ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ قَالَ: اللَّهُمَّ نَعَمْ

[…I have asked about you both and about the others, and I found that the people hold you both in the highest regard and do not view anyone as being equal to you. He said:”Do you O `Ali accept that I offer you the Bay`ah, that you may work in accordance to the book of Allah, the Sunnah of his Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and the deeds of Abu Bakr and `Umar?” `Ali said: “By Allah no, but I will do an effort to fulfill what you said.” He turned towards `Uthman and said: “Do you accept that I offer you the Bay`ah, that you may work in accordance to the book of Allah, the Sunnah of his Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and the deeds of Abu Bakr and `Umar?” He said: “By Allah, yes.”…]

All he said that he would try to fulfil what you said. Neither he opposed them. 

54 minutes ago, Cool said:

Do you have Bay'ah on your neck? If yes, who is that?

Nope. There is no ruler whom should we give bayah in this day and age. And especially we don't give bayah to a hidden ruler who was last seen in a cellar 1200 years ago. 

 

54 minutes ago, Cool said:

According to your scholars, this hadith  makes it Fard Al-‘Ain (individual duty) for all Muslims to have a Bay’ah on their neck whether they are in Dar ul-Islam or outside.

They made it fard when there would be ruler to whom we can give bayah, they didn't made fard to give bayah to a hidden 'hujjah' whom we are not even sure that whether he is alive or not. 

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10 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

But it is possible from sunni version to be vague if you think that the Prophet did not established an context that talks about authority (when he clearly did) in their ghadeer narration

Bro there is no Sunni version, it was only one version transmitted in entirety, the doctored versions and removal of important parts happend later.

Just like taking out certain phrases at Sula  Hudaibbiya and negative editing and cropping to suit political machiavellian intrigues.

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4 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

No one, more grammar nazi I realize, but gives you more credibility

Noone gives you credibility. One narration if appeared in 60 mooks doesn't make it authentic. First learn hadith science before talking to me. I gave the proofs about how that hadith was weak so many times. Ali bin zaid is weak and shahr bin hawshab is saduq kaseedul ahwaam. In actuality there is only two chains of that narration which appeared in 60 books. If khabar ul ahad appeared in 100 + books, does that make that narration mutawatir. If your answer is yes, then there is now worth talking to you since you are unaware of basic hadith terminologies

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1 minute ago, sunni muslim said:

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 532

uhhh bro...your 59 references short. Not really the same weight with only one reference. 

Khalil is in relating Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Ibrahim, terms of love.

I hope you're not conflating a title of friendship as a means to successorship, thats kind of laughable,  in a weak hadith of only one sahih sitta,  rejected by so many others and declared as unacceptable.

 

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17 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Exactly which Ghadeer narration we are talking about and from which historical lenses we are looking from? 

If you look at shia ghadeer narration, well there is no vague at all about the leadership. We have narration that majority apostated because they did not supported Imam Ali leadership but later they returned. 

But it is possible from sunni version to be vague if you think that the Prophet did not established an context that talks about authority (when he clearly did) in their ghadeer narration. Sunni Muslim says that sahaba did not understood ghadeer as appointment of leadership but that is only supported from Sunni narrative and their historical narrative. 

I really don't see any point in this discussion, because the OP will just refute using his sunni narrative. 

Exactly. That is what I wanted the shia to understand. Shia should stop using ghadeer as clear proof to sunnis since sunnis have a completely different version of ghadeer. 

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Just now, Hasani Samnani said:

I hope you're not conflating a title of friendship as a means to successorship, thats kind of laughable,  in a weak hadith of only one sahih sitta,  rejected by so many others and declared as unacceptable.

 

As I mentioned earlier. 

8 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

If you think that i would show you hadith in which peophet appointed abu bakr as his successor, then you misunderstood me. We don't believe abu bakr was appointed by the prophet. I meant that we have hadith which is greater in terms of merit

I already mentioned what I meant by that statement that we have better than that. 

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2 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Noone gives you credibility. One narration if appeared in 60 mooks doesn't make it authentic

first learn the language you argue in bro,  the correct grammar is  no one, if it appeared in 60 Books is the correct terminology, using language correctly gives you credibility. 

Wrong the hadith is not based on Two narrations and there is historical evidence of Imam Ali asking those who gave bayah if they forgot their pledges , even non muslim PHD scholars IN Islamic History acknowledge the bayyah, but write that political manoeuvring and machiavellian intrigue was responsible for denying bayah as not applicable to current circumstances hence Hazrat Ammars and many more principled sahaba known for truth and choosing the right option everytime realized the Haq of Imam Ali was taken by illegitimate means.

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6 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

first learn the language you argue in bro,  the correct grammar is  no one

Thank you. No one gives you credibility. One narration if appear in 60 books doesn't make it authentic. Thanks again for pointing out the mistake. 

 

9 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

there is historical evidence of Imam Ali asking those who gave bayah if they forgot their pledges

This narration which says imam Ali asking those who gave bayah if they forgot their pledges. Please provide the chain. We will then see if it is a historical evidence or not. 

 

10 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

even non muslim PHD scholars IN Islamic History acknowledge the bayyah, but write that political manoeuvring and machiavellian intrigue was responsible for denying bayah as not applicable to current circumstances hence Hazrat Ammars and many more principled sahaba known for truth and choosing the right option everytime realized the Haq of Imam Ali was taken by illegitimate means

Wow, non Muslim phd scholars, what a reference. Non Muslims are not hujjah in deen ya akhi. Non Muslim phd scholars also believe that umar was one of the greatest administrators and ruler of all time. Wanna believe that. 

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3 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Please provide the chain. We will then see if it is a historical evidence or not. 

 

Chains of narration are for hadith regarding prophets saying and sunnah.

Historical evidence comes from history books. 

5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Wow, non Muslim phd scholars, what a reference

once again I will explain simple Debate skills, when there is subjectivity because as you call some Shia authors and we say sunnah authors,  then reference is given to those more "objective" authorities who have no reason to have assumption biases.

it's a classical educated debate technique,  have you won many debates or studied such techniques , and arguing with sibling or parents  and winning,  doesn't count.

Maybe in college,  university,  grad school, salafi madressa maybe ??

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15 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

umar was one of the greatest administrators and ruler of all time. Wanna believe that. 

If I were to use Machiavelli's The Prince as a reference or the current 48 laws of power,  he was a genius.

Using one daughter as  apolitical pawn.... smart, using anothers daughter as a political pawn  bordering on genius....

Pushing a weak scared older man to accept a post he was not interested in ...smart,  maneuvering him to then declare you a successor despite wide spread opposition of sahaba...genius 

He did spread the empire even if it was based on treasury based acquisitions. He ignored poor lands and concentrated on rich areas or popular trade routes, common thinking for Arab Bedouins.

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3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Exactly. That is what I wanted the shia to understand. Shia should stop using ghadeer as clear proof to sunnis since sunnis have a completely different version of ghadeer. 

I for one don't use Ghadeer as clear proof to sunnis about Imam Ali's successorship to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Ghadeer was the culmination of the proof which started from Hz Ali (عليه السلام) being the first Muslim to being announced the successor at Da'wat dhu'l-'Ashira to the countless and immeasurable services he provided Allah and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) during the lifetime of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

can you please provide the most authentic sunni reference to Sermon of Ghadeer?

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11 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This is false. This is the actual narration. فَقَالَ: إِنِّي قَدْ سَأَلْتُ عَنْكُمَا وَعَنْ غَيْرِكُمَا، فَلَمْ أَجِدِ النَّاسَ يَعْدِلُونَ بِكُمَا، هَلْ أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ فَقَالَ: اللَّهُمَّ لا، وَلَكِنْ عَلَى جَهْدِي مِنْ ذَلِكَ وَطَاقَتِي.

فَالْتَفَتَ إِلَى عُثْمَانَ، فَقَالَ: هَلْ أَنْتَ مُبَايِعِي عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ، وَسُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ، وَفِعْلِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ؟ قَالَ: اللَّهُمَّ نَعَمْ

 

Salam ther is no difference in both of hadith except some differences in translation anyway this time you must provide the chain of hadith to prove yourself.

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11 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Jundub reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I am innocent before Allah of taking any of you as my best friend. Verily, Allah Almighty has taken me as His best friend, just as he took Abraham as His best friend. If I were to take anyone of my nation as a best friend, it would have been Abu Bakr. Verily, those before you would take the graves of their prophets and righteous as places of prayer. Do not take graves as places of prayer. I forbid you from doing so.”

 

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 532

 

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim

 

عن جندب عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ إِنِّي أَبْرَأُ إِلَى اللَّهِ أَنْ يَكُونَ لِي مِنْكُمْ خَلِيلٌ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى قَدِ اتَّخَذَنِي خَلِيلاً كَمَا اتَّخَذَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ خَلِيلاً وَلَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا مِنْ أُمَّتِي خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ خَلِيلاً أَلاَ وَإِنَّ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ كَانُوا يَتَّخِذُونَ قُبُورَ أَنْبِيَائِهِمْ وَصَالِحِيهِمْ مَسَاجِدَ أَلاَ فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُوا الْقُبُورَ مَسَاجِدَ إِنِّي أَنْهَاكُمْ عَنْ ذَلِكَ

 

532 صحيح مسلم كتاب المساجد ومواضع الصلاة باب النهي عن بناء المساجد على القبور واتخاذ الصور فيها والنهي عن اتخاذ القبور مساجد

Allah taking prophet and ibrahim is a greater relation than that of musa and haroon. 

provide the chain which surly you can't provide a reliable chain for it .

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