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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

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32 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

The fact that companions knows the meaning of ghadeer is appointment but rejected it and put another guy of a not so powerful tribe, and then transmitted that to mass of people is utterly ridiculous.

The following report has been within Ibn Abi-Mulaykah’s incompletely transmitted Hadiths (mursal):

After the demise of the Holy Prophet, Abu-Bakr gathered people and said, ‘You are reporting about the Messenger of Allah inconsistent narrations. People coming after you will be engaged in more intense discrepancy.

Therefore, do not report anything about the Messenger of Allah, and if anyone asks you, you should refer to the Book of Allah as the arbitrator. You should thus deem lawful whatever is lawful therein and deem unlawful whatever is unlawful therein.

(Al-Dhahbiy: Tadhkirat al-Huffadh 1:32 and `Abd al-Ghaniy Abd al-Khaliq: Hijjiyyat al-Sunnah 394.)

2. It has been narrated that `Ā`ishah said, My father collected the Hadith (of the Messenger of Allah), which was five hundred texts. He spent that night so sleeplessly and restlessly that I was sad for him. I therefore asked, ‘Are you moving restlessly due to an ailment or information that you received?’

In the morning, he asked me to fetch him the collection of Hadith that he had put with me. When I fetched them, he set fire to them. As I asked for the reason, he replied, ‘I anticipated that I would die while I still have this collection among which there might be reports of a man that I deemed trustworthy while he was the opposite; therefore, I would be the narrator of such false reports.

(Al-Dhahbiy: Tadhkirat al-Huffadh 1:5, Al-Qasim ibn Muhammad (died in 1029 AH): al-I`tisam bi-Habl-illah al-Matin 1:30, and `Abd al-Ghaniy `Abd al-Khaliq: Hijjiyyat al-Sunnah 394.)

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17 minutes ago, Cool said:

You are running away from my question purposely. This question was originated from your statement that you only use weak ahadith in fiqhi matters but not in aqeedah. So what is caliphate for you? Aqeedah or Shara'i matter? If this is shara'i/fiqhi matter, that would mean you can even use weak hadith for doing the "istidlaal". You know that and that's why you are running away. 

Now after having proved this, I don't feel the need to continue this discussion. 

No one running away from anything. How to chose ulil amr is a fiqh matter. Who is the ulil amr after messenger of allah is an aqeedah issue. Abu bakr being the rightful caliph after him is proven from authentic hadith that rightly guided caliphate after messenger of Allah will be for 30 years after him. Abu bakr umar usman and ali and hasan all are proven rightly guided through that. 

 

20 minutes ago, Cool said:

Please quote where I rejected any of these two. It seems to me you are full now lol

They clearly said that the hadith ghadeer is vague. You can't prove otherwise and go on to day that they considered other ahadith to be clear proof which is irrelevant to the discussion. It's you who is full now. 

 

22 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, where was that ijma for electing the 2nd & 3rd caliph

There was. It's you who have fed up by your scholars regarding how umar and usman got elected. They say umar was elected by abu bakr and usman was elected by 6 men. This can be uttered by a guy who is unaware of history. Abu bakr first said that chose your caliph after me by yourself, umar didn't wanted to became caliph so he secluded himself from it. After that they came to abu bakr to select the leader for them. He asked everyone regarding umar, everyone got a positive view of him except one companion whom I'm not sure whether he was talha Or abdur rahman bin auf who objected that he is very harsh. They later changed their view. Then he come outside his house asking everyone that they would be pleased if he choses leader for you, they agreed and then he announced umar which everyone agreed. And regarding uthman then he is the most agreed upon caliph amongst the 4. Umar basically appointed 6 men, ali, usman, talha, zubayr, sad bin abi waqqas, and abdur rahman bin auf. Talha gave his vote to uthman, zubayr gave his vote to ali and sad gave his vote to abdur rahman. Abdur rahman didn't want to be caliph so he asked them to choose one of them, which they both agreed. Abdur rahman later spent his night and days to consult muhajireen and ansar to choose between the two, majority were in the support of uthman. That's why he gave his bayah to usman by which all of them followed without any exceptions. 

 

41 minutes ago, Cool said:

President can nominate his successor any time. Even immediate after assuming the office

They can. They do it by saying so and so is my successor. Not whoever I'm president mu cousin is also his president. Two presidents don't exist in one government. Learn sone basics of politics first. 

 

43 minutes ago, Cool said:

Illogical, see the verse above "wa ashrikhu fe amri"

Seems to me you are out of ammunition now

What ayah. 

 

44 minutes ago, Cool said:

Seems to me you are out of ammunition now 

It's you who is completely unaware of basic politics and came to debate. 

 

44 minutes ago, Cool said:

All, are you sure or should I prove you wrong once again?

According to various sources, there was a significant number of people who did not pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr immediately following the event of Saqifah.

All those sources were chainless. Basically they are from tarikh yaqoubi who rarely quote any cahin of narrations. According to you none gave bayah to ali except ammar, and some more. 

 

46 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, you are really lost.

1) Prophet nominated Ali (عليه السلام) at ghadeer by saying whomsoever I am his master this Ali is his master. Hence proved!!

2) As the ayah itself says فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ, so Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did it when he felt that he became free now and when then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commanded him by revealing ayah e balligh.

Both of these are wrong. The first is vague. Second, ayah tabligh didn't reveal at ghadeer. That's all

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37 minutes ago, Cool said:

The following report has been within Ibn Abi-Mulaykah’s incompletely transmitted Hadiths (mursal):

After the demise of the Holy Prophet, Abu-Bakr gathered people and said, ‘You are reporting about the Messenger of Allah inconsistent narrations. People coming after you will be engaged in more intense discrepancy.

Therefore, do not report anything about the Messenger of Allah, and if anyone asks you, you should refer to the Book of Allah as the arbitrator. You should thus deem lawful whatever is lawful therein and deem unlawful whatever is unlawful therein.

(Al-Dhahbiy: Tadhkirat al-Huffadh 1:32 and `Abd al-Ghaniy Abd al-Khaliq: Hijjiyyat al-Sunnah 394.)

2. It has been narrated that `Ā`ishah said, My father collected the Hadith (of the Messenger of Allah), which was five hundred texts. He spent that night so sleeplessly and restlessly that I was sad for him. I therefore asked, ‘Are you moving restlessly due to an ailment or information that you received?’

In the morning, he asked me to fetch him the collection of Hadith that he had put with me. When I fetched them, he set fire to them. As I asked for the reason, he replied, ‘I anticipated that I would die while I still have this collection among which there might be reports of a man that I deemed trustworthy while he was the opposite; therefore, I would be the narrator of such false reports.

(Al-Dhahbiy: Tadhkirat al-Huffadh 1:5, Al-Qasim ibn Muhammad (died in 1029 AH): al-I`tisam bi-Habl-illah al-Matin 1:30, and `Abd al-Ghaniy `Abd al-Khaliq: Hijjiyyat al-Sunnah 394.)

Completely irrelevant. Shia always boast how ghadeer was transmitted by hundreds of companions. 

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5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

How to chose ulil amr is a fiqh matter. Who is the ulil amr after messenger of allah is an aqeedah issue

lol, changing goal posts..Do you even know what is an aqeedah "istilahan"?  

19 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

They clearly said that the hadith ghadeer is vague

What was quote from his book wasn't clear to you? Does that mean I am rejecting him?

21 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

They can. They do it by saying so and so is my successor.

lol, What else Prophet said except this at Ghadir? Whomsoever I am his mowla, this Ali is his mowla.

22 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

What ayah. 

:hahaha: haven't you seen it? 

"wa ashrikhu fe amri" (20:32)

I think you need some rest now. 

25 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

It's you who is completely unaware of basic politics and came to debate. 

lol, are we debating on politics?

:hahaha:

26 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

All those sources were chainless. Basically they are from tarikh yaqoubi who rarely quote any cahin of narrations. According to you none gave bayah to ali except ammar, and some more. 

Even then it challenges your claim of "all".

 

27 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Both of these are wrong. The first is vague. Second, ayah tabligh didn't reveal at ghadeer. That's all

Better to see your own books. Or perhaps burn all those books who are still mentioning that the ayah e balligh was revealed just prior to Ghadir and ayah e akmaal e deen was revealed just after the nomination/delivery of that message.

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10 minutes ago, Cool said:

changing goal posts..Do you even know what is an aqeedah "istilahan

It's you who is changing the goal post every now and then. 

 

11 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, What else Prophet said except this at Ghadir? Whomsoever I am his mowla, this Ali is his mowla.

Oh god love those who love ali hate those who hate ali. A president would never say this at the time of appointment. 

 

12 minutes ago, Cool said:

haven't you seen it? 

"wa ashrikhu fe amri" (20:32)

I think you need some rest now

How does 'share my task' prove ali is prophet's successor. Don't act desperate. 

 

13 minutes ago, Cool said:

are we debating on politics?

 

13 minutes ago, Cool said:

Even then it challenges your claim of "all".

Chainless qoutes doesn't prove anything. 

 

14 minutes ago, Cool said:

Better to see your own books. Or perhaps burn all those books who are still mentioning that the ayah e balligh was revealed just prior to Ghadir and ayah e akmaal e deen was revealed just after the nomination/delivery of that message.

I have seen. Those narrations which says tabligh ayah was revealed in ghadeer is narrated by abu saeed khudri and ibn abbas. Abu saeed chain consist attiyah who is weak by majority. Ibn abbas one doesn't even have chain. And completion verse was narrated by Abu saeed which also consist attiyah aufi. 

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I understand he wants to assert hadith of ghadeer is vague for that he has quoted a few shia scholars who've considered it a hidden proof.

Maybe he's quoted them out of context i'm un aware of what they mean, but here, lets go by shia traditions and see if hadith of ghadeer is vague according to shias or not:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَالْفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَبُكَيْرِ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ وَمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ وَبُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ وَأَبِي الْجَارُودِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ ابي جعفر (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ أَمَرَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ رَسُولَهُ بِوَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَأَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ الله وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَفَرَضَ وَلايَةَ أُولِي الامْرِ فَلَمْ يَدْرُوا مَا هِيَ فَأَمَرَ الله مُحَمَّداً (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) أَنْ يُفَسِّرَ لَهُمُ الْوَلايَةَ كَمَا فَسَّرَ لَهُمُ الصَّلاةَ وَالزَّكَاةَ وَالصَّوْمَ وَالْحَجَّ فَلَمَّا أَتَاهُ ذَلِكَ مِنَ الله ضَاقَ بِذَلِكَ صَدْرُ رَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَتَخَوَّفَ أَنْ يَرْتَدُّوا عَنْ دِينِهِمْ وَأَنْ يُكَذِّبُوهُ فَضَاقَ صَدْرُهُ وَرَاجَعَ رَبَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ فَأَوْحَى الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِلَيْهِ يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ ما أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَما بَلَّغْتَ رِسالَتَهُ وَالله يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَصَدَعَ بِأَمْرِ الله تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ فَقَامَ بِوَلايَةِ علي (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَنَادَى الصَّلاةَ جَامِعَةً وَأَمَرَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُبَلِّغَ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِبَ قَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ أُذَيْنَةَ قَالُوا جَمِيعاً غَيْرَ أَبِي الْجَارُودِ وَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) وَكَانَتِ الْفَرِيضَةُ تَنْزِلُ بَعْدَ الْفَرِيضَةِ الاخْرَى وَكَانَتِ الْوَلايَةُ آخِرَ الْفَرَائِضِ فَأَنْزَلَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لا أُنْزِلُ عَلَيْكُمْ بَعْدَ هَذِهِ فَرِيضَةً قَدْ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمُ الْفَرَائِضَ

that Abu Ja’far (p.b.u.h.) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, charged His Messenger with the Mastership of Ali, and sent down to him: Your Master is only Alldh, and His Messenger and those who believe who perform the prayer and pay zakat. He decreed the Mastership of those in authority, although they (the people) did not understand what it was. Allah command Muhammad (p.b.u.h.a.h.p.) to interpret (and explain) Mastership for them as he had interpreted (and explained) prayer, zakat, fasting and hajj. When this came to him from Allah, the mind of the Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.ah.p.) became straitened by it and he became afraid lest they (the people) abandon their religion and come to deny it. So his mind was staitened and he consulted with his Lord, to Whom belong Might and Majesty; and Allah to Whom belong Might and Majesty revealed to him: O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to thee from thy Lord; for if thou cost not, thou wig not have delivered His Message. Allah will protect thee from men (al-Ma’idah, 5:67). He complied with the command of Allah, may remembrance of Him be exlated, and endorsed the Mastership of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khumm. He convened the communal prayer, and he commanded the people that those who were witnesses should inform those who were absent.”—’Umar ibn Udhaynah said: `Ali but Abu’l-Jarudsaid: ’Abu Ja’far (p.b.uh.) said: “One divine precept came down after another, and the Mastership was the last divine ordinance. And Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, sent down: Today I have completed your religion for you, and I have perfected My blessing upon you ( al-Matidah, 5 :3 ).” Abu Ja’ far (p.b.uh. ) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, said: ’I shall not send down (any ordinance) to you after this ordinance: I have completed the divine ordinances for you.’

Ref Al-Kafi

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (250/ 3)

Even if a scholar has said something ( assuming ) that is against or not inline with Hadith of Masoomeen (عليه السلام), its not a hujjah for shias. Word of Imam is a bigger proof that word of some scholars ( that you obviously twisted )

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22 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Here see Imam Ali (عليه السلام) surely had idea that he was appointed as imam at Ghadeer:

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا علي بن الحسين السعد آبادي، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن أبي الجارود زياد بن المنذر عن جابر بن يزيد الجعفي، عن جابر بن عبد الله الانصاري قال: خطبنا علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام فحمد الله وأثنى عليه، ثم قال: أيها الناس إن قدام منبركم هذا أربعة رهط من أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وآله منهم أنس بن مالك، والبراء بن عازب، والاشعث بن قيس الكندي، وخالد بن يزيد البجلي، ثم أقبل على أنس فقال: يا أنس إن كنت سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: "من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه" ثم لم تشهد لي اليوم بالولاية فلا أماتك الله حتى يبتليك ببرص لا تغطيه العمامةوأما أنت يا أشعث فان كنت سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: "من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه" ثم لم تشهد لي اليوم بالولاية فلا أماتك الله حتى يذهب بكريمتيك، وأما أنت يا خالد بن يزيد فان كنت سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: "من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه" ثم لم تشهد لي اليوم بالولاية فلا أماتك الله إلا ميتة جاهلية، وأما أنت يا براء بن عازب فان كنت سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: "من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه" ثم لم تشهد لي اليوم بالولاية فلا أماتك الله إلا حيث هاجرت منهقال: جابر بن عبد الله الانصاري: والله لقد رأيت أنس بن مالك وقد ابتلى ببرص يغطيه بالعمامة فما تستره، ولقد رأيت الاشعث بن قيس وقد ذهبت كريمتاه، وهو يقول: الحمد الله الذي جعل دعاء أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب علي بالعمى في الدنيا ولم يدع علي بالعذاب في الآخرة فاعذب، وأما خالد بن يزيد فانه مات فأراد أهله أن يدفنوه وحفر له في منزله فدفن، فسمعت بذلك كندة فجاءت بالخيل والابل فعقرتها على باب منزله، فمات ميتة جاهلية. وأما البراء بن عازب فانه ولاه معاوية اليمن فمات بها ومنها كان هاجر

Ali ibn Abi Talib (MGB) delivered a sermon, recited praises and glorifications of God. Then he stated, ‘O people! There are four individuals among the Prophet’s companions here. These four well-known companions of God’s Prophet are Anas ibn Malik , Al-Bara ibn Azib, Ash’ath ibn Qays and Khalid ibn Yazid al-Bajaly. Then Ali (MGB) turned to Anas (ibn Malik) and said, ‘O Anas! You heard God’s Prophet (MGB) say, ‘This Ali is the master of whomever I am the master of.’ However, you are not testifying to my Mastery today. May God strike you with whiteness (vitiligo ) that shall not be hidden by a turban.’And you O Ash’ath! You heard God’s Prophet (MGB) say, ‘This Ali is the master of whomever I am the master of.’ However, you are not testifying to my Mastery today. May God not take away your life before both your eyes go blind!’And you O Khalid ibn Yazid (al-Bajaly)! You heard God’s Prophet (MGB) say, ‘This Ali is the master of whomever I am the master of. O my God! Be friends with whomever is his friend, and be the enemy of whoever is his enemy.’ However, you are not testifying to my Mastery today. May God not take away your life except as it was in the Age of Ignorance!’And you O Bara ibn Azib! You heard God’s Prophet (MGB) say, ‘This Ali is the master of whomever I am the master of. O my God! Be friends with whomever is his friend, and be the enemy of whoever is his enemy.’ However, you are not testifying to my Mastery today. May God not take away your life except in the place where you emigrated from!”Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari added, “I swear by God that I saw Anas ibn Malik who had become ill with vitiligo so badly that he could never cover it up with his turban. I saw Ash’ath ibn Qays with his both of his eyes blind. He kept on saying, ‘I praise God who fulfilled the curse of Ali ibn Abi Talib (MGB) on me in this world and that Ali (MGB) did not curse me to be tortured in the Hereafter!’ Also when Khalid ibn Yazid (al-Bajaly) died, his next of kin buried him in the house. When the Kondeh tribe heard about this, they brought a horse and a camel and slaughtered both in his house as it was the common practice during the Age of Ignorance!’ And Al-Bara ibn Azib was appointed as the governor of Yemen by Muawiyah. He died in the place where he had migrated from.”

Ref: Al-Khisal

You said hadith is vague or it doesn't mean leadership, Ali himself had no clue etc...

Then why is Ali (عليه السلام) getting angry over people not testifying to a mere vague hadith that proves nothing?

( dont come up with nonsense that our books are not hujjah, i'd say your books are not hujjah for us. I quoted these to.prove hadith of ghadeer is not vague according to shias )

Again your book is not hujjah upon me. And for your kind information this report without shia exxageration is present in sunni books. He quoted this hadeeth during his khilafah when Muslims were fighting him. He didn't use ghadeer or manzila during saqifa Or during abu bakr umar and usman time. This was the method of companions like ibn abi waqqas and buraydah when someone tried to insult or criticize ali they would quote this. They never quoted this during elections even when there was no compulsion 

 

52 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

don't think your example of verse *dont raise your voices * fit here since its an order generally for everyone just like you said but paying zakat while praying isn't a general order for everyone.

It does. The ayah didn't order people to pay zakah during ruku. It says you wali is God messenger and believers who pay zakah and bow. 

 

53 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you are nothing. You don't believe so what? You can't exclude authority from wilayah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). your refusal from accepting it is no proof. Neither for you, nor for us.

I'm sorry if this sound harsh, the ayah doesn't mean leadership. Imagine in a government where x is president, someone saying that your president is x and also y. Complete nonsense. No government have  two political leaders at the same time. Prophet was the only wali amr of islamic government at that time and no one can share this. And btw paying zakah while bowing doesn't make you master of Muslims. 

 

57 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And your books are not hujjah upon us. We have authentic narrations in Ehtejaj where imam (عليه السلام) used all of those hadiths to prove his leadership and our shia books are full of it Alhumdulillah

Then don't bring the topic that in our books there is a this and that. I didn't use any of my books to prove my point. I just use common sense and boom none of you were able to give a satisfying answer. 

 

58 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Way more than one so called authentic hadith that goes against apparent meanings of hadith Al-Ghadeer.

It doesn't go against anything. It would if the prophet clearly said that ali is my successor at ghadeer. He didn't. 

 

59 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Also you have weak

 

narration that say Ayah Baligh 5:67 was revealed at Ghadeer and Hasan narration of Shahr bin Howshab from Abu Hurreira that Ayah Ikmal e deen was revealed after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said Man kunto maula at ghadeer.

Since you accepted the first narration is weak, my job is half done. Regarding the narration of shahr bin hawshab then he is saduq kaseerul ahwam as stated by ibn hajr. He is saduq but have a lot of illusions. Usool regarding these kind of narrators is that there lone narration is rejected especially if there is an authentic hadeeth by ibn abbas that this ayah revealed at arafat. 

 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

How many have transmitted hadith of ghadeer? According to shias, there are barely 104 Companions ( sunnis would bring number way down complaining they dont have chain to all and many are weak )

100 is still a lot. No hadeeth have been reported to have narrated by millions of companions. 

 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

With that low number of people out of million, it can be said they hid and when got the chance, they secretly transmitted it.

Complete nonsense. You know when it was narrated. In front of muawiya. Very safe place to narrate it according to shia. Sad bin abi waqqas never even reported it when the election after the death of umar. He had no compulsion, he could just narrate it and prove that ali is a caliph due to this and gave bayah to ali. He didn't, he gave his vote to abdur rahman bin awf. So sorry, this hadeeth is still vague. 

 

48 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I understand he wants to assert hadith of ghadeer is vague for that he has quoted a few shia scholars who've considered it a hidden proof.

Maybe he's quoted them out of context i'm un aware of what they mean, but here, lets go by shia traditions and see if hadith of ghadeer is vague according to shias or not:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَالْفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَبُكَيْرِ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ وَمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ وَبُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ وَأَبِي الْجَارُودِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ ابي جعفر (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ أَمَرَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ رَسُولَهُ بِوَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَأَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ الله وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَفَرَضَ وَلايَةَ أُولِي الامْرِ فَلَمْ يَدْرُوا مَا هِيَ فَأَمَرَ الله مُحَمَّداً (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) أَنْ يُفَسِّرَ لَهُمُ الْوَلايَةَ كَمَا فَسَّرَ لَهُمُ الصَّلاةَ وَالزَّكَاةَ وَالصَّوْمَ وَالْحَجَّ فَلَمَّا أَتَاهُ ذَلِكَ مِنَ الله ضَاقَ بِذَلِكَ صَدْرُ رَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَتَخَوَّفَ أَنْ يَرْتَدُّوا عَنْ دِينِهِمْ وَأَنْ يُكَذِّبُوهُ فَضَاقَ صَدْرُهُ وَرَاجَعَ رَبَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ فَأَوْحَى الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِلَيْهِ يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ ما أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَما بَلَّغْتَ رِسالَتَهُ وَالله يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَصَدَعَ بِأَمْرِ الله تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ فَقَامَ بِوَلايَةِ علي (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَنَادَى الصَّلاةَ جَامِعَةً وَأَمَرَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُبَلِّغَ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِبَ قَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ أُذَيْنَةَ قَالُوا جَمِيعاً غَيْرَ أَبِي الْجَارُودِ وَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) وَكَانَتِ الْفَرِيضَةُ تَنْزِلُ بَعْدَ الْفَرِيضَةِ الاخْرَى وَكَانَتِ الْوَلايَةُ آخِرَ الْفَرَائِضِ فَأَنْزَلَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لا أُنْزِلُ عَلَيْكُمْ بَعْدَ هَذِهِ فَرِيضَةً قَدْ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمُ الْفَرَائِضَ

that Abu Ja’far (p.b.u.h.) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, charged His Messenger with the Mastership of Ali, and sent down to him: Your Master is only Alldh, and His Messenger and those who believe who perform the prayer and pay zakat. He decreed the Mastership of those in authority, although they (the people) did not understand what it was. Allah command Muhammad (p.b.u.h.a.h.p.) to interpret (and explain) Mastership for them as he had interpreted (and explained) prayer, zakat, fasting and hajj. When this came to him from Allah, the mind of the Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.ah.p.) became straitened by it and he became afraid lest they (the people) abandon their religion and come to deny it. So his mind was staitened and he consulted with his Lord, to Whom belong Might and Majesty; and Allah to Whom belong Might and Majesty revealed to him: O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to thee from thy Lord; for if thou cost not, thou wig not have delivered His Message. Allah will protect thee from men (al-Ma’idah, 5:67). He complied with the command of Allah, may remembrance of Him be exlated, and endorsed the Mastership of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khumm. He convened the communal prayer, and he commanded the people that those who were witnesses should inform those who were absent.”—’Umar ibn Udhaynah said: `Ali but Abu’l-Jarudsaid: ’Abu Ja’far (p.b.uh.) said: “One divine precept came down after another, and the Mastership was the last divine ordinance. And Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, sent down: Today I have completed your religion for you, and I have perfected My blessing upon you ( al-Matidah, 5 :3 ).” Abu Ja’ far (p.b.uh. ) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, said: ’I shall not send down (any ordinance) to you after this ordinance: I have completed the divine ordinances for you.’

Ref Al-Kafi

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (250/ 3)

Even if a scholar has said something ( assuming ) that is against or not inline with Hadith of Masoomeen (عليه السلام), its not a hujjah for shias. Word of Imam is a bigger proof that word of some scholars ( that you obviously twisted )

Already debunked. No need to repeat. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It's you who is changing the goal post every now and then. 

I am still stick to my position. It is you who are calling for references, declaring ahadith or narrator as da'eef while your scholar has graded them sahih.

It is you who said you don't use weak narrations in aqa'id. Yet you came back to position that Ulil Amr is a fiqhi matter. But appointment of Abu Bakr remained the matter of aqeedah for you.

12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

How does 'share my task' prove ali is prophet's successor. Don't act desperate. 

This is called changing the goal post. While I responded to your claim that two leaders cannot exist at the same time by quoting this verse "wa ashrikhu fee amri". 

It is the dua of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) mentioned in chapter 20 verse 25 to 32 of Quran.

Haroon (عليه السلام) also became leader in the life time of Musa (عليه السلام), when Musa (عليه السلام) went to mount sina. Musa (عليه السلام) nominated him as leader of community in his life time during his absence.

But the verse "wa ashrikhu fee amri" categorically mentioning that the two were sharing the same task. One being supporting the other by carrying some of his burden. 

12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Chainless qoutes doesn't prove anything. 

Even your Sahih al-Bukhari has narrated the fact the Ali (عليه السلام) along with others never pledged allegiace to Abu Bakr. Syeda Fatima s.a who remained alive for 3months or so, after the demise of Prophet s a w, never pledged the allegiance. 

And you are claiming "all". Why you are insisting on your ignorance?

12 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Those narrations which says tabligh ayah was revealed in ghadeer is narrated by abu saeed khudri and ibn abbas. Abu saeed chain consist attiyah who is weak by majority. Ibn abbas one doesn't even have chain. And completion verse was narrated by Abu saeed which also consist attiyah aufi. 

Again lacking knowledge. Go & see Tafseer Durr al-Mansoor  v6 p383, and find what Ibn Masood have said. 

And regarding Attiya al-Aufi, there is a difference of opinion among your scholars. So again, you cannot just ignore the weak narrations, you can use them for taking the istidlaal. A lesson taught to you by me earlier. Or would you like to make it a matter of aqeedah?

Yesterday you called your Imam Tirmizi lenient in authentication, but here what your Dar ul afta says about him:

"Some scholars, however, did consider him to be ‘lenient’ in hadith-authentication (tashih), but the reality is that one can rely on his hadith authentication"

Edited by Cool
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My deepest apologies to my brothers and sisters for this crossposting, but it is in the interest of saving you from needless and futile efforts, I have already raised the point with mods.

 

Now this is only a hypothesis,  yet to be proven, but this brother's seemingly innocent posts and subsequent inflammatory and rude responses are very similar to a certain individual who was recently banned for trolling and inflammatory language in our Ghaybah and Imamah threads, maybe someone can provide the link.

 

In the face of overwhelming Quranic, Hadith, Historical and contextual evidence both posters were always dismissive of such evidence with the same trite rejoinder of....weak hadith, false  irrelevance claims, or strawman arguments. Typical Salafi and deobandi polemical modus operandi.

 

Additionally, this account was coincidentally and fortuitously opened after other account was banned.

 

However, I could be completely wrong and I acknowledge that possibility. 

 

However,  these trolling type questions, during our time of maximum emotions related to our martyrdom commemorative events and sending our condolences to our Grieving Living Imam, are indicative of a malignant type attention seeking  personality complex with a possible component Inferiority complex related to being on the wrong side of major theological matters....strictly clinically speaking. 

 

Again I will allow for myself to be completely wrong, but hypothetical evidence so far is leading to such a conclusion.

 

I was indisposed previously with our sad  commemorative events and avoided any work related and  social media for some time, but now am observing and commenting.

 

Remember brothers, our true sunnah brothers with whom we want respectful dialogue and seek commonality are highly deferential and reverential towards our  Ahlul Bayt and their position theologically.

 

Whilst there maybe differences in political,  historical and accept hadiths and significance, however well read sunnah and sufi brothers , accept Imam Ali's superiority in religious , spiritual ( the source of all silsaalaa chains), scientific, and  judicial knowledge. In fact, all three caliphs are on record acknowledging that superior knowledge and deferring to Imam Ali in such matters.

 

In fact many of our more objective non Muslim scholars hypothesize that Imam Ali's acknowledged superiority was put aside because of machiavellian political manoeuvring,  economic considerations and notorious ageism prevalent in tribal Arabia.

 

 

 

Maybe our poster could enlighten us on his specific background, sunni Tariqa or Firqa, which sunni Imams he follows since then we can provide and structure our clearly evident proofs towards his specific background and views.

 

  That is a common beginning In higher level academic discussions , otherwise it would lead one to postulate that his questions are more of a trolling exercise.

 

During such sad days this would be not considered very honourable and a futile academic excercise towards one with no hope of Salvatory Guidance from our community, and will require  divine intervention thru Allah's current Hujjah, one of the other living Imams or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

 

 

 

PS to my honourable brothers and sisters who have provided the overwhelming proofs,  Bravo for your enlightening and scholarly proofs they have been very beneficial to us who don't have such deep knowledge,  but I would hate for your valuable time to be wasted if my hypothesis is correct.

 

Edited 43 minutes ago by Hasani Samnani

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8 hours ago, Cool said:
20 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 

I am still stick to my position. It is you who are calling for references, declaring ahadith or narrator as da'eef while your scholar has graded them sahih

Again those scholars explicitely weaken the narration. They call it hasan due to additional evidences. But the part where umar congratulated ali is weak due to ali bin zaid. If you don't know about hadith basics then that's not my problem. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

This is called changing the goal post. While I responded to your claim that two leaders cannot exist at the same time by quoting this verse "wa ashrikhu fee amri". 

It is the dua of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) mentioned in chapter 20 verse 25 to 32 of Quran.

Haroon (عليه السلام) also became leader in the life time of Musa (عليه السلام), when Musa (عليه السلام) went to mount sina. Musa (عليه السلام) nominated him as leader of community in his life time during his absence.

But the verse "wa ashrikhu fee amri" categorically mentioning that the two were sharing the same task. One being supporting the other by carrying some of his burden. 

It is you who changing goal post. How di musa and haroon thing got anything to do with ghadeer. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Even your Sahih al-Bukhari has narrated the fact the Ali (عليه السلام) along with others never pledged allegiace to Abu Bakr.

Narration in sahih bukhari says he pledge allegiance after 6 month. The claim that he never pledge allegiance is a complete lie. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Syeda Fatima s.a who remained alive for 3months or so, after the demise of Prophet s a w, never pledged the allegiance. 

She didn't need to. Women don't go and give pledge of allegiance to rulers. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

And you are claiming "all". Why you are insisting on your ignorance

Calm down sir. Don't start with personal insults. You are a shia that's why will get away with all these insults in these site. If you want to play these insults insult game then dm me in Instagram. Sag_e_baghdad is my account. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Again lacking knowledge. Go & see Tafseer Durr al-Mansoor  v6 p383, and find what Ibn Masood have said. 

It's you who is lacking knowledge. Imam suyuti in durre  manthoor quoted ibn masood from the tafseer of ibn marduwayh who don't provide any chains. 

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

And regarding Attiya al-Aufi, there is a difference of opinion among your scholars.

The overwhelming majority regard him as weak narrator. Some scholars do made his tawtheeq but 4 scholars in front of 27 scholars is not counted. 

 

5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Now this is only a hypothesis,  yet to be proven, but this brother's seemingly innocent posts and subsequent inflammatory and rude responses are very similar to a certain individual who was recently banned for trolling and inflammatory language in our Ghaybah and Imamah threads, maybe someone can provide the link

I know that guy. I was watching that debate before signing up. And it was you who started the insulting language, making racial comments and even called him s**ually deviant and what not. He rattled all of you with one question. And none of you was able to answer him except narrating stories of people meeting him. 

 

5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

In the face of overwhelming Quranic, Hadith, Historical and contextual evidence both posters were always dismissive of such evidence with the same trite rejoinder of....weak hadith, false  irrelevance claims, or strawman arguments. Typical Salafi and deobandi polemical modus operandi.

Your proofs was ridiculously weak in that debate. If you think you can throw any defence and expect sunnis to get super impressed by the response, then you should stop getting involved in debates. 

 

5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

However,  these trolling type questions, during our time of maximum emotions related to our martyrdom commemorative events and sending our condolences to our Grieving Living Imam, are indicative of a malignant type attention seeking  personality complex with a possible component Inferiority complex related to being on the wrong side of major theological matters....strictly clinically speaking. 

Again personal attacks. 

 

5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Maybe our poster could enlighten us on his specific background, sunni Tariqa or Firqa, which sunni Imams he follows since then we can provide and structure our clearly evident proofs towards his specific background and views.

Sure. I'm from ahlus sunnah and i follow the hanafi madhab. 

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46 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Calm down sir. Don't start with personal insults. You are a shia that's why will get away with all these insults in these site.

I sincerely apologize for what I said. Since you have declared that you belongs to Hanafi school of thought, that indicates you are not nasibi. Hence I treat you onwards as my brother, and will deal with you with full respect. 

We have a difference of opinion in many matters. And for my Hanafi brothers, I only like to discuss the commonalities instead of differences. 

Stay blessed and I once again apologize for my words.

Wassalam!!

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Posted (edited)

Hadith Ghadeer is Vague as per sunni view?

Reply:

Since the words of the prophet of Islam are being degraded and disrespected by such ambiguous statements, I like to present my view for clarification.

Hadith:

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

…Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his Mawla, ‘Ali is his Mawla. O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

The analysis of these words in clear manner is presented below:

1.     Part First

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟

"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”

People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.

This  part is announced by the prophet saw from the verse of quran as given below:

النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ

The Prophet has more authority over the believers than themselves.  (33:6)

Further explanation of this verse can be seen from Tafseer Ibne Kaseer (sunni tafseer):

“Allah tells us how His Messenger is merciful and sincere towards his Ummah, and how he is closer to them than they are to themselves. His judgment or ruling takes precedence over their own choices for themselves, as Allah says:

فَلَا وَرَبِّكَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَجِدُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

(But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept with full submission.) (4:65) In the Sahih it says:

وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَا يُؤْمِنُ أَحَدُكُمْ حَتَّى أَكُونَ أَحَبَّ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ نَفْسِهِ وَمَالِهِ وَوَلَدِهِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, none of you truly believes until I am dearer to him than his own self, his wealth, his children and all the people.)”

 The prophet is to be loved by the believers more than their own soul.  His judgment or ruling takes precedence over their own choices for themselves. There are many verses in quran that further confirm the obedience to the prophet unconditionally like:

 The prophet has declared himself Mawla  of the believers, so the specific characteristics attributed to him are described in following verses:

 قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌ ٣١}

: Say: "If ye do love Allah follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ {٣٢}

003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

٢٠         يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ

٢٤_٥٤   قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٤٧_٣٣   ۞ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَٰلَكُمْ

008:020 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear [him].

024:054 Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn your backs, [you should know that] he is only responsible for his burden and you are responsible for your own burden, and if you obey him, you will be guided, and the Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

047:033 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not render your works void.

 ٣_١٣٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

 ٥_٩٢     وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

003:132 and obey Allah and the Messenger so that you may be granted [His] mercy.

005:092 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and beware; but if you turn your backs, then know that Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

٦٤_١٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

064:012 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تُقَدِّمُوا۟ بَيْنَ يَدَىِ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦ ۖ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌۭ

049:001 O you who have faith! Do not venture ahead of Allah and His Messenger, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.

The verses of quran are quite clear since the prophet is a Mawla of believers (by hadith) he should be loved above all by believers and he must be obeyed by believers.

 Thus the same criteria of love and obedience are defined by the verses of quran and hadith as given above for prophet as Mawla of believers.

 2- Part Second

. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه

Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his Mawla, ‘Ali is his Mawla. O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

In the light of hadith , verses of quran and necessary analysis it is mentioned that  the same criteria of love and obedience are defined for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Mawla of believers that has been given above for prophet as Mawla of believers.

This is true meaning of the word Mawla, the real interpretation of above hadith and it is our belief that Imam Ali should be obeyed after the prophet as leader by the believers.

The belief of sunna is distorted and found against the verses of quran as they only accept the love part of the hadith and reject the above criteria of obedience to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as defined above while they consider the criteria of both love and obedience for the prophet being Mawla of the believers.

 3-   If still sunna think that the hadith of Ghadeer in the light of verses of quran define that the criteria of Mawla for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is that he should be loved as friend alone without obeying him, then please quote us a verse of quran where the prophet has been mentioned that the prophet (as Mawla of believers) can only be taken as friend and he should not be obeyed.

 4- If sunna do not find any such verse of quran then it is a dominant proof that quran does mention that  the Prophet saww should be obeyed as a Leader and loved  to meet the both criteria for  Mawla, The same Principe is  true for imam Ali as Mawla of the believers by rejecting the sunni concept of Mawla.

 For us, the  Prophet who is a Leader of ummah being Mawla of  believers. Likewise Imam Al is Leader of our ummah being Mawla of believers and he should be loved and obeyed.

@Cool

 wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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38 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

For us, the  Prophet who is a Leader of ummah being Mawla of  believers. Likewise Imam Al is Leader of our ummah being Mawla of believers and he should be loved and obeyed.

Exactly!!

Furthermore, as we know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the sole owner of wilayah and our Mowla, the words used by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) :

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم

reminds me what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said:

الست بربكم

The words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), showing both the tashri'i & takwini aspects of the wilayah. And the wilayah with both of these aspects is extending towards Imam Ali a s. Both of these personalities are hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon creation & His greatest signs. 

The claim that Prophet's words about the Naba'il Azeem (عليه السلام) are vague, and our difference of opinion with this statement, reminds me the verses of Sura e Naba:

عَمَّ يَتَسَاءَلُونَ {1}

[Shakir 78:1] Of what do they ask one another

عَنِ النَّبَإِ الْعَظِيمِ {2}

[Shakir 78:2] About the great event,

الَّذِي هُمْ فِيهِ مُخْتَلِفُونَ {3}

[Shakir 78:3] About which they differ?

Thanks to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His chosen servants, for they have made the "Sirat" clear for us Alhamdolillah.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

I know that guy. I was watching that debate before signing up. And it was you who started the insulting language, making racial comments and even called him s**ually deviant and what not.

Wait a minute you know that guy, an anonymous poster with an avatar name and account.  Is he your friend? Is he kind of slow?, just asking out of curiosity.

You were watching the debate before signing up and yet you have the same exact questions and responses and styles, must be since you know him and maybe he is a friend, that's why your posts seem so similar. Even using the same language, interesting as all coincidences often are.

Anyways , luckily you have much better arguments and will not stoop to insults like some ill mannered ignorant people are prone to do, and then they deservedly get banned. We must maintain civility and manners.

Unfortunately for Alif, he had no cogent arguments, he lacked an foundational knowledge of his own madhab, he knew nothing of the sources of Shia hadith and guidance received from the Qur'an,  and from Rasoolullah and Our Al Immah AS.

As Imam Ali says , I have never argued with an ignorant fool....and won.

The insults were removed by moderator immediately, I am just curious how could know what I said, you must have been logged in at the very same time I was.

I apologized to the little kid, as my anger for our Living Imam, to whom we allow not even the suggestion of an insult,  got the better of me.

Fortunately since he was the most childish debater the whole shiachat family demolished and demoralized him with devastating  arguments, he was stuck to increasing his insults, since his debate skills were quite pathetic, and then he ran away.

After outing himself as a Salafi, as per his own words, and after the evidence filled figurative verbal beatdown he received , we all felt kind of pity for the poor little kid.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 personality complex with a possible component Inferiority complex related to being on the wrong side of major theological matters....strictly clinically speaking. 

As a physician I am not making personal attacks , I am giving a clinical appraisal conditional to the possibility of trolling behavior.  If you're not trolling,  and you accept some of the extensively delineated proofs,  it means you are engaging in a good faith academic discussion... But if like the little child who came first,  you are adamant that not one  of the proofs are sufficient  despite multiple posters and multiple definitive sources, it would  be prima facie evidence of futile debate,  where one party accepts nothing.

Then best for you read Peshawwar Nights, in  which the Shia Alim uses only  their own authentic sunni sources to demolish their own arguments, with grace and skill. All of your questions have been answered in that book. 

If you have not read it, means that you might not understand the basics foundations of Shia philosophy and theological rhetoric.a

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

How di musa and haroon thing got anything to do with ghadeer

If you don't understand the analogy and evidentiary basis of succession of previous prophets how can you understand later examples.

Haroon was the appointed successor and his brother,  just like Imam Ali was to the prophet,  do you deny the hadith of Musa relationship to Haroon.

It's obvious to anyone who has sincere intellectual reasoning,  that the prophet would not assemble all the traveling ummah, making special care to call those ahead back and ask those behind to catch up, have the Muslims build a pulpit ( which was used for official proclamations) and obvious doing this in the hot desert heat of daytime,  to raise Imam Ali's hand and declare him his successor by specifically using the term Maula ( a Lord...not with the definitive article, which could only mean Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) In a highly specific context. 

Then the companions individually and in groups offered congratulations and felicitations, including Umar,  Talha and Zubair among others.

what is very interesting in the arguments you have proferred, You say that only a select few companions sided with Imam Ali and did not give their allegiance. The number is not important,  it's the worth of those companions. For example Ammaer e yasir, His worth was was elaborated extensively by Rasoolullah.

‘Aisha  narrates that Sayyidina Rasulullah salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “‘Ammar chose the best of the two options placed before him.”[3] that means that Abu Bakr , was not the better option, Imam Ali was the true successor and due to some underhanded machiavellian politicking, the better option as per Hazarat Ammar was not chosen. 

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1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Wait a minute you know that guy, an anonymous poster with an avatar name and account.  Is he your friend? Is he kind of slow?, just asking out of curiosity

I know him means I know who you were referring to. Neither he is my friend, nor do I know him personally. I was a guest at the time the debate was started. I watched the whole debate until that moderator closed that thread. I don't know how he got banned and not you, since you said much more disgusting and racist things to him. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

You were watching the debate before signing up and yet you have the same exact questions and responses and styles, must be since you know him and maybe he is a friend, that's why your posts seem so similar. Even using the same language, interesting as all coincidences often are.

I agree that my style is similar. Coincidence maybe. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Unfortunately for Alif, he had no cogent arguments, he lacked an foundational knowledge of his own madhab, he knew nothing of the sources of Shia hadith and guidance received from the Qur'an,  and from Rasoolullah and Our Al Immah AS.

He had. He rattled you all with one simple question which none of you could answer. Ashvazdanghe provided long paragraphs which was irrelevant to the debate. His question was simple, if you believe there must be an living imam present so that he may expound, deliver, the religion then it is forbidden to him to stay in ghaybah kubra. He must come and start expounding the religion. If he didn't do that, then there is no need of an infallible guide at all time. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

The insults were removed by moderator immediately, I am just curious how could know what I said, you must have been logged in at the very same time I was

What do you mean how could I know. Your posts were visible to people. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Fortunately since he was the most childish debater the whole shiachat family demolished and demoralized him with devastating  arguments, he was stuck to increasing his insults, since his debate skills were quite pathetic, and then he ran away.

Shiachat members were rattled by his simple questions. And regarding him running away. Then I don't think so. He was there till the last. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Then best for you read Peshawwar Nights, in  which the Shia Alim uses only  their own authentic sunni sources to demolish their own arguments, with grace and skill. All of your questions have been answered in that book

I have read that. That's the most silliest book I've read. 

 

58 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

It's obvious to anyone who has sincere intellectual reasoning,  that the prophet would not assemble all the traveling ummah, making special care to call those ahead back and ask those behind to catch up, have the Muslims build a pulpit ( which was used for official proclamations) and obvious doing this in the hot desert heat of daytime,  to raise Imam Ali's hand and declare him his successor by specifically using the term Maula ( a Lord...not with the definitive article, which could only mean Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) In a highly specific context

It's obvious to anyone with intellect that no one in this whole world announce their caliphate like this. No one says whoever I'm master so and so is his master. People simply say so and so is my caliph. Your understanding of ghadeer is even grammatically wrong. In a government, only one leader could exist. Imagine a president saying whoever I'm president so and so is his president. Everyone would get confused, since two presidents can't exist at the same time. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Then the companions individually and in groups offered congratulations and felicitations, including Umar,  Talha and Zubair among others

As explained earlier, that hadeeth is weak. 

 

1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

what is very interesting in the arguments you have proferred, You say that only a select few companions sided with Imam Ali and did not give their allegiance. The number is not important,  it's the worth of those companions. For example Ammaer e yasir, His worth was was elaborated extensively by Rasoolullah

I was quoting your belief. We don't believe ammar didn't pledge allegiance to abu bakr. Neither there is a narration exists in sunni books to believe that. 

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11 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

My deepest apologies to my brothers and sisters for this crossposting, but it is in the interest of saving you from needless and futile efforts, I have already raised the point with mods.

 

Now this is only a hypothesis,  yet to be proven, but this brother's seemingly innocent posts and subsequent inflammatory and rude responses are very similar to a certain individual who was recently banned for trolling and inflammatory language in our Ghaybah and Imamah threads, maybe someone can provide the link.

Salaam brother,

In my experience, most people asking for irrefutable proof are simply doing it to get people going and have no intention of accepting it. 

Have you heard about the incident of a few 'sahaba' who hatched a plan to trip Imam Ali (عليه السلام) by seemingly asking him impossible questions to answer. First came one who asked "what animals lay eggs and what animals have babies?". Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied instantly that "animals with ears sticking out have babies and inside ears lay eggs.". Then came another and asked the same question. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave another answer. Then came a third who also asked the same question. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave yet another response and told them they can ask the same question 100 times (I dont remember the exact quantity) and he would keep giving them different answers.

The point is that people constantly visit ShiaChat and ask the same questions over and over again and we respond because TRUTH NEVER TIRES :) . The danger of not responding is that true seekers of knowledge may get ignored.

Like I told this brother, even the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) could not convince everyone to accept Islam so the onus is on him to accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the successor of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Whether he does or not actually makes no difference to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) nor to any of us.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam brother,

In my experience, most people asking for irrefutable proof are simply doing it to get people going and have no intention of accepting it. 

Have you heard about the incident of a few 'sahaba' who hatched a plan to trip Imam Ali (عليه السلام) by seemingly asking him impossible questions to answer. First came one who asked "what animals lay eggs and what animals have babies?". Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied instantly that "animals with ears sticking out have babies and inside ears lay eggs.". Then came another and asked the same question. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave another answer. Then came a third who also asked the same question. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave yet another response and told them they can ask the same question 100 times (I dont remember the exact quantity) and he would keep giving them different answers.

The point is that people constantly visit ShiaChat and ask the same questions over and over again and we respond because TRUTH NEVER TIRES :) . The danger of not responding is that true seekers of knowledge may get ignored.

Like I told this brother, even the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) could not convince everyone to accept Islam so the onus is on him to accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the successor of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Whether he does or not actually makes no difference to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) nor to any of us.

So eloquently stated. I am afraid this OP is laying a little trolling trap, just like the person who got banned did. Now we can respond, but as you notice he accepts none of your proofs, neither Quranic, Hadith, or AhlulBayt.

That demonstrates an unwillingness to allow one's eyes to open, ears to hear and mouth to utter acceptance. He refutes every proof with the typical Salafi rhetorical polemics ....that Quranic ayat doesn't mean that ( he doesn't understand the miracle of the Qur'an's deeper and deeper meanings depending on one's intellect and understanding rejecting the Mukhamat and  mutashabaeyhaat ayat), in that chain of Narrators one is weak ( the ummayad and abbasid rulers paid money to weaken certain hadith thru calumny and propaganda) , accepting none of the Imam's saying ( because true sunnies accept there madhabs had influence from Imams  but salafis alwys deny) . The true sunnies are Mohib e AhlulBayt,  because they also give importance to the prophet and his progeny...and one who does not is pseudo sunni salafi/deobandi in disguise, and there fore Soomun, Bookmun,  Omyun. But if some feel they have the ability to lift the Veils from such people, by all means go ahead.

He will end the thread saying you failed to convince him, and start a new one thinking he beat the Shia because they couldn't convince him.

But never realizing that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in his infinite mercy continues to try to guide him , and he continues to reject Allah's Bayinah.

Sad and pitiful is the feeling we are left with.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

He will end the thread saying you failed to convince him, and start a new one thinking he beat the Shia because they couldn't convince him.

But never realizing that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in his infinite mercy continues to try to guide him , and he continues to reject Allah's Bayinah.

For those who choose not to see the truth:

[Shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

Edited by ShiaMan14
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Regarding I have read that. That's the most silliest book I've read.

If the OP calls a book detailing a debate between "Prince of Preachers from Shiraz" Sultan e Waizeen , the most silliest ( shows his English is very poor ) and more importantly proofs..., given by an Alim praised by our other Alims as one of the most learned and a teachers' teacher,  ...are called silly, this posters ignorance is on the level of classic blind people of history Abu Jehl, Abu Lahab, Firaun, Nimrod, and Muawiya.  Who despite irrefutable proofs and miracles from Rasoolullah,  Musa, Ibrahim and Imam Ali, they rejected everything....whose the real Rafidah.

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

He rattled you all with one simple question which none of you could answer

Why spend multiple paragraphs defending banned member,  why so invested in someone else's arguments.

I confess to laying a trap we physicians do with patients who we feel might be confabulating and we see how far they will fall into the trap...uhhh this guy fell head over heels. I often wonder when people are dishonest with others ...do they realize when they're dishonest with themselves.

Nonetheless maybe there is a small chance he will heed Allah's guidance. If he comes to the understanding that there are no coincidences in life, the Lord who controls sub atomic particles , Matter and Anti Matter , is giving this poster a glimpse at the truth, if he chooses to reject....
 
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ


ثُمَّ كَلَّا سَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ

But it maybe too late for you child.

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7 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

So eloquently stated. I am afraid this OP is laying a little trolling trap, just like the person who got banned did. Now we can respond, but as you notice he accepts none of your proofs, neither Quranic, Hadith, or AhlulBayt.

That demonstrates an unwillingness to allow one's eyes to open, ears to hear and mouth to utter acceptance. He refutes every proof with the typical Salafi rhetorical polemics ....that Quranic ayat doesn't mean that ( he doesn't understand the miracle of the Qur'an's deeper and deeper meanings depending on one's intellect and understanding rejecting the Mukhamat and  mutashabaeyhaat ayat), in that chain of Narrators one is weak ( the ummayad and abbasid rulers paid money to weaken certain hadith thru calumny and propaganda) , accepting none of the Imam's saying ( because true sunnies accept there madhabs had influence from Imams  but salafis alwys deny) . The true sunnies are Mohib e AhlulBayt,  because they also give importance to the prophet and his progeny...and one who does not is pseudo sunni salafi/deobandi in disguise, and there fore Soomun, Bookmun,  Omyun. But if some feel they have the ability to lift the Veils from such people, by all means go ahead.

He will end the thread saying you failed to convince him, and start a new one thinking he beat the Shia because they couldn't convince him.

But never realizing that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in his infinite mercy continues to try to guide him , and he continues to reject Allah's Bayinah.

Sad and pitiful is the feeling we are left with.

 

7 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

If the OP calls a book detailing a debate between "Prince of Preachers from Shiraz" Sultan e Waizeen , the most silliest ( shows his English is very poor ) and more importantly proofs..., given by an Alim praised by our other Alims as one of the most learned and a teachers' teacher,  ...are called silly, this posters ignorance is on the level of classic blind people of history Abu Jehl, Abu Lahab, Firaun, Nimrod, and Muawiya.  Who despite irrefutable proofs and miracles from Rasoolullah,  Musa, Ibrahim and Imam Ali, they rejected everything....whose the real Rafidah.

Why spend multiple paragraphs defending banned member,  why so invested in someone else's arguments.

I confess to laying a trap we physicians do with patients who we feel might be confabulating and we see how far they will fall into the trap...uhhh this guy fell head over heels. I often wonder when people are dishonest with others ...do they realize when they're dishonest with themselves.

Nonetheless maybe there is a small chance he will heed Allah's guidance. If he comes to the understanding that there are no coincidences in life, the Lord who controls sub atomic particles , Matter and Anti Matter , is giving this poster a glimpse at the truth, if he chooses to reject....
 
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ


ثُمَّ كَلَّا سَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ

But it maybe too late for you child.

Again started with personal insults. This guy neither contribute to a debate rather come and whine about about how the other guy is this or that. Either contribute to this debate and stop whining or don't waste my time. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

 

Again started with personal insults. This guy neither contribute to a debate rather come and whine about about how the other guy is this or that. Either contribute to this debate and stop whining or don't waste my time. 

Bro it is you who wastes our time, stick to salafi boards where they argue about inane topics , you never accept any of our proofs.

If you really are knowledgeable let's see you refute one argument from Peshawar Nights,  I am sure you will be able to do...... 

So sit with your friends and talk about how bad shias are, how our Faith is spreading so fast and is so attractive to non well read Sunnies, talk about how great the mutawa of Saudi are, how you came into a deep dark pit Shias and fought your way out and laid waste to everyone with your slick arguments.

Tell Alif better never to show his face around here again, since he had to be kicked out for trying to insult our Imam ul Hujjah. That's not tolerated, despite how nice we are.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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19 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Bro it is you who wastes our time, stick to salafi boards where they argue about inane topics , you never accept any of our proofs.

If you really are knowledgeable let's see you refute one argument from Peshawar Nights,  I am sure you will be able to do...... 

So sit with your friends and talk about how bad shias are, how our Faith is spreading so fast and is so attractive to non well read Sunnies, talk about how great the mutawa of Saudi are, how you came into a deep dark pit Shias and fought your way out and laid waste to everyone with your slick arguments.

Tell Alif better never to show his face around here again, since he had to be kicked out for trying to insult our Imam ul Hujjah. That's not tolerated, despite how nice we are.

Indeed I can able to refute peshawar nights here. Post any argument here which you want to be debunked. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

Indeed I can able to refute peshawar nights here. Post any argument here which you want to be debunked. :blabla::hahaha:l

Bro you haven't been able to refute your way out a paper bag.

You will be debunking what, you have shown no significant knowledge to indicate you can debunk anything....

in the words of Willy Wonka...

You lose.....you get nothing....good day sir.:hahaha:

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On 8/10/2022 at 10:16 PM, sunni muslim said:

It's you who have fed up by your scholars regarding how umar and usman got elected. They say umar was elected by abu bakr and usman was elected by 6 men. This can be uttered by a guy who is unaware of history. Abu bakr first said that chose your caliph after me by yourself, umar didn't wanted to became caliph so he secluded himself from it. After that they came to abu bakr to select the leader for them. He asked everyone regarding umar, everyone got a positive view of him except one companion whom I'm not sure whether he was talha Or abdur rahman bin auf who objected that he is very harsh. They later changed their view. Then he come outside his house asking everyone that they would be pleased if he choses leader for you, they agreed and then he announced umar which everyone agreed.

Nice effort to fabricate the story. Unfortunately, the following hadith categorically rejects your fabricated story:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. 'Umar who said:

I was present with my father when he was wounded. People praised him and said: May God give you a noble recompense! He said: I am hopeful (of God's mercy) as well as afraid (of His wrath) People said: Appoint anyone as your successor. He said: Should I carry the burden of conducting your affairs in my life as well as in my death? (So far as Caliphate is concerned) I wish I could acquit myself (before the Almighty) in a way that there is neither anything to my credit nor anything to my discredit. If I would appoint my successor, (I would because) one better than me did so. (He meant Abu Bakr.) If I would leave You alone, (I would do so because) one better than me, i. e. the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), did so. 'Abdullah says: When he mentioned the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) I understood that he would not appoint anyone as Caliph.

(Sahih Muslim Book 33, Hadith 13)

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Cool said:

Nice effort to fabricate the story. Unfortunately, the following hadith categorically rejects your fabricated story:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. 'Umar who said:

I was present with my father when he was wounded. People praised him and said: May God give you a noble recompense! He said: I am hopeful (of God's mercy) as well as afraid (of His wrath) People said: Appoint anyone as your successor. He said: Should I carry the burden of conducting your affairs in my life as well as in my death? (So far as Caliphate is concerned) I wish I could acquit myself (before the Almighty) in a way that there is neither anything to my credit nor anything to my discredit. If I would appoint my successor, (I would because) one better than me did so. (He meant Abu Bakr.) If I would leave You alone, (I would do so because) one better than me, i. e. the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), did so. 'Abdullah says: When he mentioned the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) I understood that he would not appoint anyone as Caliph.

(Sahih Muslim Book 33, Hadith 13)

Sorry to break your heart it doesn't. I never said abu bakr didn't appoint umar. First understand what your opponent is saying then try to respond. Abu bakr chose umar as his successor, but he first discussed it with companions, they all approved except one, later he also agreed. Abu bakr asked the people if I chose someone would you agree they said yes. And he chose umar. First learn to read and then start coming to debates. There was none who objected to khilafah of umar. And same with uthman. 

Edited by sunni muslim
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5 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry to break your heart it doesn't. I never said abu bakr didn't appoint umar.

Sorry to break your heart, here are your words:

On 8/10/2022 at 10:16 PM, sunni muslim said:

Abu bakr first said that chose your caliph after me by yourself, umar didn't wanted to became caliph so he secluded himself from it

 

17 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Abu bakr chose umar as his successor, but he first discussed it with companions, they all approved except one, later he also agreed

Unfortunately, the hadith of Sahih Muslim is not agreed with this statement. And neither your two statements. Sorry to break your heart your majesty :hahaha:

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Cool said:

Sorry to break your heart, here are your words:

 

Unfortunately, the hadith of Sahih Muslim is not agreed with this statement. And neither your two statements. Sorry to break your heart your majesty :hahaha:

It doesn't. Read the full and then come. 

 

36 minutes ago, Cool said:

It's you who have fed up by your scholars regarding how umar and usman got elected. They say umar was elected by abu bakr and usman was elected by 6 men. This can be uttered by a guy who is unaware of history. Abu bakr first said that chose your caliph after me by yourself, umar didn't wanted to became caliph so he secluded himself from it. AftAfter that they came to abu bakr to select the leader for them. He asked everyone regarding umar, everyone got a positive view of him except one companion whom I'm not sure whether he was talha Or abdur rahman bin auf who objected that he is very harsh. They later changed their view. Then he come outside his house asking everyone that they would be pleased if he choses leader for you, they agreed and then he announced umar which everyone agreed.

Now read the full thing and don't waste my time. Since it is very difficult for you to understand ( which even a little toddler can understand btw) Abu bakr first said to them to chose your leader yourself, they couldn't and asked Abu bakr to select his successor, then after consultation abu bakr appointed umar. 

Edited by sunni muslim
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:hahaha: Why don't you just read what you said & quote by me again. 

45 minutes ago, Cool said:

People said: Appoint anyone as your successor. He said: Should I carry the burden of conducting your affairs in my life as well as in my death? (So far as Caliphate is concerned) I wish I could acquit myself (before the Almighty) in a way that there is neither anything to my credit nor anything to my discredit. If I would appoint my successor, (I would because) one better than me did so. (He meant Abu Bakr.) If I would leave You alone, (I would do so because) one better than me, i. e. the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), did so.

Now I have highlighted the hadith. It was people who were saying Umar to appoint successor. No consultation is mentioned here. So he replied if I would appoint my successor, I would because, one better than me did so. Again no consultation. 

Bang!!

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