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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

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7 hours ago, Cool said:

For me, I don't even feel the need of "hadith e ghadir" to accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

You are right brother we do have verses of quran that explicitly define the virtues of ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) including Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and there are hadith that explicitly define that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is caliph of every believer mentioned in sunni sources.

These are just sufficient to accept his caliphate announced by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even many companions turned away from him the demise of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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Posted (edited)

Forty Hadith on Ghadir Khum: https://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadith-ghadir-mahmud-sharifi

An Analysis Part 1: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-1
 

An Analysis Part 2: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-2

An Analysis Part 3 (specifically in Sunni Hadith): https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-3

Extra Analysis on Ghadir:

How do you prove that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was imam and khalifa after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?
http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1162


Appointment of Imam Ali and the third ayah of Surah Al-Ma’idah:
http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa8258



Much Deeper Dive in Sunni Hadith and Literature on Imamate (on Left menu -> Caliphate -> Ghadir):
http://al-hadi.us/religion/index_i.html

Edited by Ethics
Sources.
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As-sallamu Alaykum

The succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after Prophet Muhammad (S) is not just based on Ghadir Khumm - Wikipedia, but also recognized in Hadith of position - WikipediaHadith Yawm al-Dar - WikiShiaHadith of warning - WikipediaHadith al-Thaqalayn - Wikipedia and many others. Hence, Ghadir Khumm is only one of the significant events to elevate the status of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as a notable figure to succeed after Prophet Muhammad (S) eventually. Moreover, it requires a logical and reasonable understanding of who would be best/trusted at carrying the traditions, virtues and experiences of someone so renowned, their family or friend. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is, after all, the closest to Prophet Muhammad (S) than anyone as his cousin and son-in-law through a blessed marriage with Bibi Fatima (sa) and eventually bore the Prophet's beloved grand-children Imam Hasan and Husayn (عليه السلام). He had been under the Prophet's tutelage since childhood and was among the first to become a Muslim or be honored with a banner. Although, this skewed view by some who underappreciate Imam Ali as insignificant and even slander his character, when there's so much bestowed and protected of his reputation through Prophet Muhammad (S). While in that same breath, there's the notion of over-appreciation of the Sahabah ((رضي الله عنه)) over him and any of the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام). Sometimes, we shall be realistic and honest with circumstances and not be blinded by politicized agendas. There was no guarantee that even the select companions were perfect or righteous, nor was there anything denoting their promised succession over the eminent office of the Ahl al-Bayt at least after the Prophet (S), whether alluded to or even mentioned through Al-Quran or Ahadith by the Prophet himself.

History shows the calamity established by the self-appointed Shura-based Caliphates after Prophet Muhammad (S). However, from the start there's been recurring disputes, that began with the black Thursday incident where the Prophet (S) astaghfirullah was apparently delirious on his death-bed and wasn't allowed to write https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_Pen_and_Paper, then there's the incident of the heated and haste Saqifa election, with the deliberate exclusion of the Muhajirun and Imam Ali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqifah, then the refusal of Bay'ah by some Sahabah (رضي الله عنه) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahabah_who_did_not_give_bay%27ah_to_Abu_Bakr, then the aggressive confrontation at Bibi Fatima's (sa) house over Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) refusal for Bay'ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Fatima%27s_house, then the usurping of Faqak for which Bibi Fatima (sa) died angry, refused bay'ah and supported Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Sermon of Fadak - Wikipedia, then the ban on Hadith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_Umar%27s_ban_on_hadith, then the brutal genocidal invasion of Zoroastrian Empire of Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Zoroastrians#:~:text=The%20notably%20large%2Dscale%20persecution,forced%20conversions%20and%20sparse%20violence, then the revolt against the immense Corruption and Nepotism of the 3rd Caliph Assassination of Uthman - Wikipedia...

Yet, I haven't even begun on Umayyad and Abbasids Caliphates, which are far worse...

Hence, the weighty Ahl al-Bayt are as revered by the Prophet as they were in Al-Quran and Ahadith. Compared, they would appear more righteous and less shrouded by such mishaps; indeed, they are meant to guard the Ummah. On the other hand, the extreme saintship and many excuses to cover up some of the companion mishaps by believing that they are entirely righteously guided, devoid of faults, and even better than Ahl al-Bayt are purely biased, ignorant, and wrong. They've made obvious mistakes recorded in history because, after all, they are humans, and it should be okay to accept that. I cannot imagine how is it that Bibi Fatima's (sa) resting place is unknown or that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and their sons (عليه السلام), who were persecuted by the ruling caliphates, are not even near the resting place of the Prophet (S)? But it just so happens that the Caliphs are. Or the fact that the collected literature from hafiz's like Bukhari or Muslim fails to even narrate among Imam Ali (عليه السلام) let alone any of the pious Ahl al-Bayt themselves, compared to the mountains and mountains of narrations by the companions only. Therefore, there needs to be critical thinking, not bias, by shrouding and denouncing historical events. 

Regardless, this is my two cents on this ordeal and why I'm inclined towards Shi'ism. The immense assessment is the crux of amassing a diverse amount of Ilm. So finally, we can rationally deduce through proper context when referring to the event of the final farewell, Ghadir Khumm. 

To begin, it is one of the greatest parallel/frequent (Mutawatir) traditions in the History of Islam related to this sermon of the Prophet (S).

The Farewell Pilgrimage

Ten years after the migration, the Messenger of Allah ordered to his close followers to call all the people in different places to join him in his last pilgrimage. On this pilgrimage he taught them how to perform the pilgrimage in a correct and unified form. This was first time that the Muslims with this magnitude gathered in one place in the presence of their leader, the Messenger of Allah. On his way to Mecca, more than seventy thousand people followed Prophet (S). On the fourth day of Dhul-Hajjah more than one hundred thousand Muslims had entered Mecca.

Revelation Of Verse 5:67

On the 18th of Dhul-Hajjah, after completing his last pilgrimage (Hajjatul-Widaa), Prophet was leaving Mecca toward Medina, where he and the crowd of people reached to a place called Ghadir Khum (which is close to today’s Juhfah). It was a place where people from different provinces should say Good bye to each other and take different routes for their home. In this place, the following verse was revealed:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ...”(Qur’an 5:67).

Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

(2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

(3) Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

(4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

(5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

(6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

(7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

(8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

(9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

(10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

(11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

(12) and many more such as Ibn Mardawayh, etc...

The last sentence in the above verse indicates that the Prophet (S) was mindful of the reaction of his people in delivering that message but Allah informs him not to worry, for He will protect His Messenger from people.

The Speech

Upon receiving the verse, the Prophet (S) stopped on that place (the pond of Khum) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered.

He ordered Salman (رضي الله عنه) to use rocks and camel toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement. It was around noon time in the first of the Fall, and due to the extreme heat in that valley, people were wrapping their robes around their feet and legs, and were sitting around the pulpit, on the hot rocks.

On this day the Messenger of Allah spent approximately five ours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Qur’an, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech. The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:

The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

Some of the Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297 ... And hundreds more. Please see part 3 for more classified references (traditionists, historians, and commentators).

The above was just a part of speech of the Prophet (S). For a more detailed speech of the Prophet, please see the end of this part.

Revelation Of Verse 5:3

Immediately after the Prophet (S) finished his speech, the following verse of Holy Qur’an was revealed:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)

Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
(8) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
(9) Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authority Abu Sa’id Khudri.

... and more.

The above verse clearly indicates that Islam without clearing up matter of leadership after Prophet was not complete, and completion of religion was due to announcement of Prophet’s immediate successor.

Oath Of Allegiance

After his speech, the Messenger of Allah asked every body to give the oath of allegiance to ‘Ali (عليه السلام) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him the oath were Umar, Abu Bakr, and Uthman. It is narrated that Umar and

Abu Bakr said:

"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women."

Sunni references:

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(3) Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
(4) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
(5) Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
(6) al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
(7) al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
(8) Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
(9) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra ... and more.

The Number Of People In Ghadir Khum

It was Allah’s will that an increased popularity is associated with this tradition via the tongs of narrators and over the times. So that there is a standing proof for the guiding Imam (peace be upon him). Allah ordered His Prophet (S) to notify people at a time of crowded populous so that all become the narrators of the tradition, while they exceeded a hundred thousand.

Narrated by Zaid Ibn Arqam: Abu al-Tufail said: "I heard it from the Messenger of Allah, and there was no one (there) unless he saw him with his eyes and heard him with his ears."

Sunni reference:

(1) al-Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, p21;

(2) al-Dhahabi said it is sahih (authentic), as said in:

(3) History of Ibn Kathir, v5, p208

It is also narrated that:

"The Messenger of Allah called at the height of his voice."

Sunni reference: Manaqib al-Khawarizmi, by al-Khawarizmi, p94

"There were with the Messenger (S) from the companions, Arabs, residents around Mecca and Medina one hundred and twenty thousand (120,000) and they are those who were present in the Farewell Pilgrimage and heard this speech."

Sunni reference: Manaqib, by Ibn al-Jawzi

Revelation Of Verse 70:1-3

Some Sunni commentators further claim that the first three verse of the chapter of al-Ma’arij (70:1-3) was revealed when a dispute arose after Prophet reached Medina. It is recorded that:

On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward ‘Ali and said: "‘Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came to Medina and went to the Messenger of Allah (S) and said to him: "You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Mecca and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `’Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from You?”The Prophet (S) said: "By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, Mighty and the Glorious."

On hearing this Harith turned back and proceeded towards his she-camel saying: "O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.”

He had not reached his she-camel when Allah, who is above all defects flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following verses:

"A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent.”(70:1-3)

Sunni references:

(1) Tafsir al-Tha’labi, by Is’haq al-Tha’labi, commentary of verse 70:1-3 from two chain of narrators.
(2) Noor al-Absar, by Shablanji, p4
(3) al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p25
(4) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v2, p214
(5) Arjah al-Matalib
(6) Nazhat al-Mujalis from al-Qurtubi

The Events That Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) Reminded The Tradition

Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام), in person, reminded others who witnessed the event of Ghadir and the tradition of the Messenger of Allah; these are some of the events:

- On the day of Shura (Election Day for Uthman)
- During the days of Uthman’s rule
- The Day of Rahbah (year 35) where 24 companions stood up and swore that they attended and heard the tradition of the Prophet (S) first hand, of whom were the warriors of Badr.
- The Day of Jamal (the War of Camel, year 36) where he reminded Talha.
- The Day of the Riders where 9 witnesses testified.

About the Battle of Camel, al-Hakim and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and others recorded that:

We were in the camp of ‘Ali on the day of Battle of Camel, where ‘Ali sent for Talha to talk to him (before the beginning of war). Talha came forward, and ‘Ali told him: I adjure you by Allah! Didn’t you hear the Messenger of Allah (S) when he said: `Whoever I am his MAWLA, this ‘Ali is his MAWLA. O God, love whoever loves him, and be hostile to whoever is hostile to him’?”Talha replied: "Yes.”‘Ali said: "Then why do you want to fight me?”

Sunni reference:

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 169,371
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, on the authority of Ilyas al-Dhabbi
- Muruj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas’udi, v4, p321
- Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p107

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal recorded in his Musnad that:

Abu Tufayl narrated that He (‘Ali) gathered the people in the plain of Rahbah (on year 35 AH) and adjured in the name of Allah every Muslim male present there who had heard the proclamation of al-Ghadir from the Messenger of Allah (S) to stand up and testify what they had heard from the Messenger on the Day of Ghadir.

Thereupon thirty (30) stood up and gave evidence that the Prophet grasped ‘Ali’s hand and said to the audience: "He (‘Ali) has superior authority over those who believe me to have superiority over their lives. O Allah! Love him who loves him and hate him who hates him.”

Abu Tufayl says that it was in a state of great mental agitation that he left the plain of Rahbah, the Muslim masses had not complied with the tradition. He therefore called on Zaid Ibn Arqam and told him what he heard from ‘Ali. Zaid told him not to entertain any doubt about it for he himself had heard the Messenger of Allah uttering those words.

Sunni reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p370 also:

Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abu Laylah said: I witnessed ‘Ali administering an oath to the people in the plain of Rahbah. ‘Ali said: "I adjure those of you in the name of Allah who heard the Messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir saying `’Ali is the Mawla of whom I am Mawla’ to stand up and to testify. He who was not an eyewitness doesn’t need to stand up.”Thereupon twelve (12) such companions who had participated in the Battle of Badr stood up. The occasion is still fresh in my memory.

Sunni references:

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p119, see also v5, p366

- Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 21,103, narrated similar to above on the authority of three others: Umayah Ibn Sa’d, Zaid Ibn yathigh, and Sa’id Ibn Wahab.

It is also recorded that:

When ‘Ali said to Anas: "Why don’t you stand up and testify what you heard from the Messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir?”He answered, "O Amir al-Mumineen! I have grown old and do not remember.”Thereupon ‘Ali said: "May Allah mark you with a white spot (of leprosy; Alphosis) unconcealable with your turban, if you are intentionally withholding the truth.”And before Anas got up from his place he bore a large white spot on his face, Thereafter Anas used to say, "I am under the curse of the righteous servant of Allah."

Sunni references:

(1) al-Ma’arif, by Ibn Qutaybah, p14, in the account of Anas among disabled persons.
(2) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p199, where he testifies to the above anecdote, as he says: "All stood up except three persons who came under the curse of ‘Ali."
(3) Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v5, p27

A More Detailed Speech Of Prophet At The Pond Of Khum

Messenger of Allah said:

"Praise belongs to Allah. We ask Him for help, and we believe in Him, and to Him we trust. We seek refuge to Him from the evil of our souls and the sins of our deeds. Verily there is no guide for the one whom Allah leaves in stray, and there is non who leads astray the one whom Allah has guided."

"O People! Know that Gabriel came down to me several times bringing me an order from the Lord, the Merciful, that I should stop at this place and inform you. Behold! It is as if the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call."

"O Folk! Don’t you witness that there is no deity but Allah, Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, Paradise is truth, Hell is truth, is truth, resurrection is truth, and that the Hour shall certainly arrive, and Allah shall raise people from the graves?"

People replied: "Yes, we believe in them."

He continued: "O People! Do you hear my voice (clearly)?”

They said: Yes".

The Prophet said: "Behold! I am leaving among you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to both of them, you shall never go astray after me. Each of these two surpasses the other in its grandeur."

A person asked: "O Messenger of Allah, what are those two precious things?"

The Prophet replied: "One of them is the Book of Allah and the other one is my select progeny (Itrat), that is family (Ahlul-Bayt). Beware of how you behave them when I am gone from amongst you, for Allah, the Merciful, has informed me that these two (i.e., Qur’an and Ahlul-Bayt) never separate from each other until they reach me in Heaven at the Pool (of al-Kawthar). I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. Once more! I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt.”

"Behold! I am your predecessor at the Pool (of Paradise) and I shall be a witness against you. Thus be careful how you treat these two precious things after me. Do not precede these two for you will perish, and do not stay away from them for you will perish."

"O People! Don’t you know that I have more authority upon you than yourself?”People cried and said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allah.”Then prophet repeated: "O Folk! Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People said again "Yes, O Messenger of Allah.”Then Prophet said: "O People! Surely God is my Master, Whoever and I am the master of all believers.”Then he grasped the hand of ‘Ali and raised it and said: I am his master, ‘Ali is his master (repeating three times). O God! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to him. Help those who help him. Forsake those who forsake him. And keep the truth with him wherever he turns (i.e., make him the axis of the truth)."

"‘Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother, my executor (Wasi), and my successor (Caliph), and the leader (Imam) after me. His position to me is the same as the position of Haroon (Aaron) to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me. He is your master after Allah and His Messenger."

"O Folk! Verily Allah has appointed him to be your Imam and ruler. of him is obligatory for all Immigrants (Muhajirin) and Helpers (Ansar) and those who follow them in virtue, and on the dwellers of the cities and the nomads, the Arabs and the non-Arabs, freeman and the slave, the young and the old, the great and the small, the white and the black.”

"His commands should be obeyed, and his word is binding and his order is obligatory on everyone who believes in one God. Cursed is the man who disobeys him, and blessed is the one who follows him, and he who believes in him is a true believer. His WILAYAH (belief in his mastery) has been made obligatory by Allah, the Powerful, the Exalted."

“O Folk! Study the Qur’an. Reflect on its clear verses and do not presume the meaning of the ambiguous verses. For, by Allah, nobody can properly explain them to you its warnings and its meanings except me and this man (i.e., ‘Ali) whose hand I am lifting up in front of myself."

"O People! This is the last time that I shall stand in this assembly. Listen to me and obey and submit to the command of Lord. Allah, He is your Lord and God. After Him, His prophet, who is addressing you, is your master. Then after me, this ‘Ali is your master and your leader (Imam) according to Allah’s command. Then after him leadership will continue through some selected individuals in my descendants till the day you meet Allah and His Prophet."

"Behold! Certainly you shall meet your Lord and He will ask you about your deeds. Beware! Do not become infidels after me by striking the necks of one another. Lo! It is incumbent upon those who are present to inform what I said to those who are absent for perhaps the informed one might comprehend it (understand it) better than some of the present audience. Behold! Haven’t I conveyed the Message of Allah to you? Behold! Haven’t I conveyed the Message of Allah to you?”People replied: "Yes.”The Prophet said: "O God! Bear witness."

References:

- A’alam al-Wara, pp 132-133

- Tadhkirat al-Khawas al-Ummah, Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 28-33

- al-Sirah al-Halabiyyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p273

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6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

The hadith is weak

Should I quote you which of your scholars deem it authentic?

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

. It is also narrated by history that at the time of khilafah of umar, someone asked him why he put such importance to ali, he said because ali is my mawla. If we believe your interpretation that it means leader of islamic community, then the scenario would become utterly nonsensical.

First of all, this new statement of Umar you have quote, proving your earlier statement wrong that the hadith mentioning "bakhun bahun" is weak.

Secondly, this hadith is obviously weak because it is said by a person who attacked the house of Ali (عليه السلام), threatened to burn its door or perhaps have broken its door. He is among the two main culprits of Saqifah and Syeda Fatima s.a departed angry from this world with these two. See how non-sense is what you are mentioning. 

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Majority of muhajireen wal ansar didn't participated in fighting. One can count at fingers how many companions were involved in jamal and siffin. 

This further proves that they didn't consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as their friend neither they have accepted him as their Caliph. Otherwise they were obligated to obey & help the "Ulil Amr", they have to be with the truthful one according to divine command "كونو مع الصادقين". 

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Even if we consider it as master it still doesn't explain the fact that it is vague

Perhaps it is in the dictionary of Ahlul Sunnah that the master is the one who is being ruled. Master is the one who is being commanded & master is the one who is obligated to obey. 

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This is what I was talking about. Prophet was talking about a special rank of khaleel

And what I was saying is a simple thing i.e., Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is no one's "friend". Either you translate the word khaleel as friend or translate mowla as friend. 

و ما محمد الا رسول

 And the two ahadith of Bukhari specifically quoted to prove you that from your own books. So you have no other way left except to accept mowla as master/guardian.

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

that it is vague even according topmost shia scholars.

I have seen you done the mistake by quoting Syed Murtaza :

 

On 8/6/2022 at 9:23 PM, sunni muslim said:

أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

I once again advise all the brothers of ahlul sunnah to not use statements of shia scholars against themselves otherwise you will be doomed. 

And by the way, know that I am also a student of Syed Murtaza, applying his methodology & guidance in this discussions. If you have studied him you would have known that from my very  first comment on this thread. 

Anyway, I would like to tell you that Syed Murtaza mentioned many نص جلي of Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his book. Here is what he said along with the references of your books:

1.

إنه سيد المسلمين وإمام المتقين وقائد الغر المحجلين

Ref:

أخرجه الحاكم في المستدرك ٣ / ١٣٧ وقال: هذا حديث صحيح الاسناد، والمتقي في كنز العمال ٦ / ١٥٧ وقال: أخرجه البارودي وابن قانع والبزاز والحاكم وأبو نعيم، والهيثمي في مجمع الزوائد ٩ / ١٢١ وقال: رواه الطبراني في الصغير

 

2.

هذا ولي كل مؤمن ومؤمنة بعدي

Ref: 

في مسند أبي داود الطيالسي ٣ / ١١١ " إن عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " فيه ١١ / ٣٦٠ " أنت ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " وروي بهذا المضمون في مسند أحمد ٤ / ٤٣٧ و ٥ / ٣٥٦ وحلية الأولياء ٦ / ٢٩٤، وخصائص النسائي ص ١٩ و ٢٣ وكنز العمال ٦ / 159 و 396

 

3. 

سلموا على علي بإمرة المؤمنين

Ref:

شرح نهج البلاغة لابن أبي الحديد 1 / 12 وابن عساكر (ترجمة امير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) عن بريدة الاسلمي أمرنا رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) أن نسلم على علي بإمرة المؤمنين...

4.

هذا خليفتي فيكم من بعدي فاسمعوا له و أطيعوا

Ref:

هذا الحديث هو حديث يوم الدار أخرجه الطبري في التاريخ 2 / 321 واحمد في المسند 1 / 111 / 159، والحاكم في المستدرك 3 / 132 والحلبي في السيرة1 / 381، والسيوطي في جمع الجوامع 6 / 397 عن ابن إسحاق وابن جرير وابن ابي حاتم وابن مردويه وابي نعيم والبيهقي

Syed Murtaza not only memtioned the above, but he also argued that the following ahadith:

علي مني وأنا منه

النسائي في الخصائص ص 16 بلفظ (ان عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدى)، والترمذي 2 / 297، و احمد في المسند ج 4 / 136، 437.

علي مع الحق والحق مع علي

اللهم ائتني بأحب خلقك إليك يأكل معي من هذا الطائر

جامع الترمذي ج 2 / 299، خصائص النسائي / 5 المستدرك 3 / 13، تاريخ بغداد 3 / 171.

etc., are referring the الأفعال والأقوال الظاهرة of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which non of our opponent can deny and Ali (عليه السلام) was in the stage of اولى in the place of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) well before the declaration made at Ghadir by stating الست اولى بالمومنين من انفسهم. 

This is the اتمام حجت for you, Now verify these references and accept the wilayah of Amir al-Mo'mineen Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام)

 

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19 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

The debate is not about who should appoint the successor. The debate topic is whether hadith ghadeer is a clear proof of appointment of Ali or not. If it is proven that it is not clear then shia have not right to use it against sunnis to prove his appointment. 

First of all, it is clear from the arrangement of gadheer that what importance it bears. It is narrated in various accounts that number of people who attended the ghadeer were 150,000 ashab. Secondly, there are poetical verses of Hassan ibn Sabit through which meaning of this event is clear, he says:  "Ali: Get up, I selected you for succession and guidance of people after me. Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority, and you loving him heartily, follow him". 

besides this there is plenty of material on this site to prove that at khum-e-Ghadeer Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appointed as leader in all spheres of life after prophet. 

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ghadir-tradition-expressive-evidence-guardianship

19 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

All of this is false. Abu bakr never asked fiqh questions from Ali. There is absolutely no proof of that. Rather it was abu bakr to whom people asked. When the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed away people gathered around abu bakr and asked him how to perform the janaza and where he should be buried. Umar used to consult ali, uthman, abdullah bin abbas, and many more. I have not heard that about uthman though. 

In a letter to Abu bakr, Khalid ibn Walid, one of the generals of the army of Islam, asked concerning “a certain man living on the fringes of the Arab world who marries as women marry” Abu Bakr assembled a number of the companions, among whom was also ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, to decide on how to punish this man. ‘Ali said, “This iniquity was committed not by previous nations excepting only one. That nation was afflicted with what you already know.17 I assume that you should burn him with fire.” Thus Abu Bakr wrote to Khalid that the man should be burnt.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-taqrib/volume-2-number-3-winter-2008/imam-ali-caliphs-their-relationship-interaction/imam-ali

This is just one event, I have read events where Hazrat Abu Bakar was left speechless by emissaries of foreign religion and he resorted to Imam Ali for help. 

As regards Usman, Imam Ali helped him during a political upheaval which emerged during caliphate of Hazrat Usman.

20 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Both of these are completely different things. Nah there can be many meanings of it. But none of the meanings includes his appointment. Appointment must be clear, unambigious like 'ali is the caliph after me'. Had the prophet announced his caliphate like this, then there would be no possible way to interpret it amin any way or form

Refer to first paragraph where poetical verses of Hazrat Hassan ibn Sabit are narrated which tells meaning of Mawla at Ghadeer khum.

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16 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Which hadith you are mentioning? Hadith Ghadeer is a narrated by many chains and all of the companions present at ghadeer understood it and greeted Imam Ali for being Mawla of believers.

The hadith which says that they congratulated ali is weak. There are basically 2 chains of that. First chain include ali bin zaid who is weak. Secong one have shahri bin hawshab who is saduq yakhtee kaseeran. 

 

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16 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

You are right brother we do have verses of quran that explicitly define the virtues of ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) including Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and there are hadith that explicitly define that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is caliph of every believer mentioned in sunni sources.

These are just sufficient to accept his caliphate announced by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even many companions turned away from him the demise of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

None of the companions turned away from him. They were the one who narrated the ahadith of ghadeer and manzila in the first place which you consider a 'clear' proof. They just never understood it to be appointment because it is absolutely vague. Clear cut proofs look like these ' ali is my successor and you ruler after me'. This how people appoint their successor genius. Not like the ahadith which you quote. 

 

15 hours ago, Ethics said:

Forty Hadith on Ghadir Khum: https://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadith-ghadir-mahmud-sharifi

An Analysis Part 1: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-1
 

An Analysis Part 2: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-2

An Analysis Part 3 (specifically in Sunni Hadith): https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/ghadir-khum-part-3

Extra Analysis on Ghadir:

How do you prove that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was imam and khalifa after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?
http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1162


Appointment of Imam Ali and the third ayah of Surah Al-Ma’idah:
http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa8258



Much Deeper Dive in Sunni Hadith and Literature on Imamate (on Left menu -> Caliphate -> Ghadir):
http://al-hadi.us/religion/index_i.html

Post the arguements here. I don't have time to go to each websites and refute hundred of mistakes there. I am a human after all. 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

The succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after Prophet Muhammad (S) is not just based on Ghadir Khumm - Wikipedia, but also recognized in Hadith of position - WikipediaHadith Yawm al-Dar - WikiShiaHadith of warning - WikipediaHadith al-Thaqalayn - Wikipedia and many others. Hence, Ghadir Khumm is only one of the significant events to elevate the status of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as a notable figure to succeed after Prophet Muhammad (S) eventually. Moreover, it requires a logical and reasonable understanding of who would be best/trusted at carrying the traditions, virtues and experiences of someone so renowned, their family or friend. 

Hadith of position is more vague than ghadeer. Hadith yaum al dar is authentic in general but the part which says prophet appointed ali is weak and fabricated. Hadith thaqalayn doesn't say about appointment. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

Ali (عليه السلام) is, after all, the closest to Prophet Muhammad (S) than anyone as his cousin and son-in-law through a blessed marriage with Bibi Fatima (sa) and eventually bore the Prophet's beloved grand-children Imam Hasan and Husayn (عليه السلام). He had been under the Prophet's tutelage since childhood and was among the first to become a Muslim or be honored with a banner. Although, this skewed view by some who underappreciate Imam Ali as insignificant and even slander his character, when there's so much bestowed and protected of his reputation through Prophet Muhammad (S). While in that same breath, there's the notion of over-appreciation of the Sahabah ((رضي الله عنه)) over him and any of the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام). Sometimes, we shall be realistic and honest with circumstances and not be blinded by politicized agendas. There was no guarantee that even the select companions were perfect or righteous, nor was there anything denoting their promised succession over the eminent office of the Ahl al-Bayt at least after the Prophet (S), whether alluded to or even mentioned through Al-Quran or Ahadith by the Prophet himself

Totally irrelevant. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

History shows the calamity established by the self-appointed Shura-based Caliphates after Prophet Muhammad (S). However, from the start there's been recurring disputes, that began with the black Thursday incident where the Prophet (S) astaghfirullah was apparently delirious on his death-bed and wasn't allowed to

Again, totally irrelevant. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

then there's the incident of the heated and haste Saqifa election, with the deliberate exclusion of the Muhajirun and Imam Ali

You don't understand the point. The reason for saqifa was thatbnone of the companions were able to understand that ghadeer was an appointment. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

the 18th of Dhul-Hajjah, after completing his last pilgrimage (Hajjatul-Widaa), Prophet was leaving Mecca toward Medina, where he and the crowd of people reached to a place called Ghadir Khum (which is close to today’s Juhfah). It was a place where people from different provinces should say Good bye to each other and take different routes for their home. In this place, the following verse was revealed:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ...”(Qur’an 5:67).

Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

(2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

(3) Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

(4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

(5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

(6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

(7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

(8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

(9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

(10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

(11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

(12) and many more such as Ibn Mardawayh, etc

The Hadith which states that this verse was revealed in ghadeer is weak. Attiyah aufi is considered weak by overwhelming majority of Hadith scholars. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه

As mentioned earlier. The Hadith is vague. Read my earlier posts as to why this Hadith is vague. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

Immediately after the Prophet (S) finished his speech, the following verse of Holy Qur’an was revealed:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)

Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
(8) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
(9) Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authority Abu Sa’id Khudri

The Hadith is also weak. Attiyah audi is weak according to the majority. 

 

14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

body to give the oath of allegiance to ‘Ali (عليه السلام) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him the oath were Umar, Abu Bakr, and Uthman. It is narrated that Umar and

Abu Bakr said:

"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women."

Sunni references:

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(3) Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
(4) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
(5) Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
(6) al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
(7) al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
(8) Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
(9) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra ... and more

This is also weak. Ali bin zaid and shahr bin hawshab are weak. 

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14 hours ago, Abu Ehsan said:

Some Sunni commentators further claim that the first three verse of the chapter of al-Ma’arij (70:1-3) was revealed when a dispute arose after Prophet reached Medina. It is recorded that:

On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward ‘Ali and said: "‘Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came to Medina and went to the Messenger of Allah (S) and said to him: "You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Mecca and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `’Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from You?”The Prophet (S) said: "By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, Mighty and the Glorious."

On hearing this Harith turned back and proceeded towards his she-camel saying: "O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.”

He had not reached his she-camel when Allah, who is above all defects flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following verses:

"A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent.”(70:1-3)

Sunni references:

(1) Tafsir al-Tha’labi, by Is’haq al-Tha’labi, commentary of verse 70:1-3 from two chain of narrators.
(2) Noor al-Absar, by Shablanji, p4
(3) al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p25
(4) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v2, p214
(5) Arjah al-Matalib
(6) Nazhat al-Mujalis from al-Qurtubi

Absolute fabrication. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

Should I quote you which of your scholars deem it authentic?

Please do so. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

First of all, this new statement of Umar you have quote, proving your earlier statement wrong that the hadith mentioning "bakhun bahun" is weak

And the Hadith which you quoted that umar congratulated ali is also weak. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

Secondly, this hadith is obviously weak because it is said by a person who attacked the house of Ali (عليه السلام), threatened to burn its door or perhaps have broken its door. He is among the two main culprits of Saqifah and Syeda Fatima s.a departed angry from this world with these two. See how non-sense is what you are mentioning

Umar attacking Ali's house is weak, saqeefah happened because Hadith ghadeer is weak, and syeda getting angry on him is false, syeda fatima was basically angry on abu bakr who is neither the topic of debate. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

This further proves that they didn't consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as their friend neither they have accepted him as their Caliph. Otherwise they were obligated to obey & help the "Ulil Amr", they have to be with the truthful one according to divine command "كونو مع الصادقين". 

It doesn't. They didn't fight on neither side because they heard the prophet whenever you see fitna then break your swords and don't participate. They just don't want to kill muslims. They had nothing against ali. They used to defend ali whenever a kharji Or a nasbi insulted him. They were the ones who narrated Ali's virtues. Doesn't look like what an enemy would do. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

Perhaps it is in the dictionary of Ahlul Sunnah that the master is the one who is being ruled. Master is the one who is being commanded & master is the one who is obligated to obey.

Quote my full argument then try to answer it sir. Don't half quote the arguments and try to answer. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

And what I was saying is a simple thing i.e., Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is no one's "friend". Either you translate the word khaleel as friend or translate mowla as friend. 

و ما محمد الا رسول

 And the two ahadith of Bukhari specifically quoted to prove you that from your own books. So you have no other way left except to accept mowla as master/guardian

Again, quote my full argument and then try to answer. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

I once again advise all the brothers of ahlul sunnah to not use statements of shia scholars against themselves otherwise you will be doomed. 

And by the way, know that I am also a student of Syed Murtaza, applying his methodology & guidance in this discussions. If you have studied him you would have known that from my very  first comment on this thread. 

Anyway, I would like to tell you that Syed Murtaza mentioned many نص جلي of Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his book. Here is what he said along with the references of your books:

Are you unaware of how debate goes, sharif murtaza is not a hujjah upon me. In debates people quote the opponent's books against them, that does not mean that everything which is written in it is a hujjah upon us. When you quote sunni books against sunnis, do you believe in everything which is written in it. Sharif murtaza believed that ghadeer and manzila is not explicit and that's the point of this debate. 

And let see what he quote as nass jali. 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

 

إنه سيد المسلمين وإمام المتقين وقائد الغر المحجلين

Ref:

أخرجه الحاكم في المستدرك ٣ / ١٣٧ وقال: هذا حديث صحيح الاسناد، والمتقي في كنز العمال ٦ / ١٥٧ وقال: أخرجه البارودي وابن قانع والبزاز والحاكم وأبو نعيم، والهيثمي في مجمع الزوائد ٩ / ١٢١ وقال: رواه الطبراني في الصغير

Hadith is fabricated. Scholars don't rely on him in authentication of Hadith. 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

هذا ولي كل مؤمن ومؤمنة بعدي

Ref: 

في مسند أبي داود الطيالسي ٣ / ١١١ " إن عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " فيه ١١ / ٣٦٠ " أنت ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " وروي بهذا المضمون في مسند أحمد ٤ / ٤٣٧ و ٥ / ٣٥٦ وحلية الأولياء ٦ / ٢٩٤، وخصائص النسائي ص ١٩ و ٢٣ وكنز العمال ٦ / 15

Hadith is authentic. But 'after me' would be rejected according to usool of Hadith. Jafar bin sulayman is an extremist shia. And the ruling upon such narrators is that when they relates a Hadith which promotes their aqeedah is rejected. 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

 

سلموا على علي بإمرة المؤمنين

Ref:

شرح نهج البلاغة لابن أبي الحديد 1 / 12 وابن عساكر (ترجمة امير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) عن بريدة الاسلمي أمرنا رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) أن نسلم على علي بإمرة المؤمنين

Ibn abil hadeed is not a sunni rather a shi'i mutazili, and please provide the chain from ibn asakir. His tarikh is extremely large collection. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

 

هذا خليفتي فيكم من بعدي فاسمعوا له و أطيعوا

Ref:

هذا الحديث هو حديث يوم الدار أخرجه الطبري في التاريخ 2 / 321 واحمد في المسند 1 / 111 / 159، والحاكم في المستدرك 3 / 132 والحلبي في السيرة1 / 381، والسيوطي في جمع الجوامع 6 / 397 عن ابن إسحاق وابن جرير وابن ابي حاتم وابن مردويه وابي نعيم والبيهقي

This hadeeth is also fabricated. 

 

12 hours ago, Cool said:

علي مني وأنا منه

النسائي في الخصائص ص 16 بلفظ (ان عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدى)، والترمذي 2 / 297، و احمد في المسند ج 4 / 136، 437.

علي مع الحق والحق مع علي

اللهم ائتني بأحب خلقك إليك يأكل معي من هذا الطائر

جامع الترمذي ج 2 / 299، خصائص النسائي / 5 المستدرك 3 / 13، تاريخ بغداد 3 / 171.

These three ahadith don't talk about khilafah. Only a man with a high level of intellect can tell about how saying ali is with haq and haq is with ali, proves his appointment. 

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4 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

. Secondly, there are poetical verses of Hassan ibn Sabit through which meaning of this event is clear, he says:  "Ali: Get up, I selected you for succession and guidance of people after me. Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority, and you loving him heartily, follow him

This Hadith is chainless

 

4 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

In a letter to Abu bakr, Khalid ibn Walid, one of the generals of the army of Islam, asked concerning “a certain man living on the fringes of the Arab world who marries as women marry” Abu Bakr assembled a number of the companions, among whom was also ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, to decide on how to punish this man. ‘Ali said, “This iniquity was committed not by previous nations excepting only one. That nation was afflicted with what you already know.17 I assume that you should burn him with fire.” Thus Abu Bakr wrote to Khalid that the man should be burnt.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-taqrib/volume-2-number-3-winter-2008/imam-ali-caliphs-their-relationship-interaction/imam-ali

This is from your books not ours. So it's not a hujjah upon us. And sunnis don't consider burning, a punishment for homosexuals. 

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Guest NewGuy

As can be seen from my name, I am new to this and don't have any credentials. However, I want to learn so please correct any mistakes I make. Also, salam to everyone who has commented so far.

I believe what the Sunni brother is asking is that, without looking at any other historical context, is it possible to be 100% certain that the event of Ghadir Khum demonstrates the appointment of a ruler after the prophet (عليه السلام)? Just as he has quoted other scholars saying, I don't believe it is possible to be 100% certain. Without looking at any history or context and just looking at the hadith, you will find that there are a few possibilities. Either Ali (عليه السلام) is stated to be the friend of the prophet (عليه السلام) and all the believers, the master of all the believers, or the successor. Since 3 possibilities can come out of this, it is not 100% certain that this event alone would demonstrate any sort of authority. I believe that is the answer to your question without needing all this back and forth. 

Now, where the back and forth comes in is the following: we never look at an event without historical context and logic. And thus the debate that has been going on for a long long time will probably never be conclusively decided until some divine intervention concludes it. In the end, a lot of people use logic to decide what is right or wrong in cases like this. We all agree that islam is a perfect religion and the prophet (عليه السلام) is the most perfect human ever sent. Keeping that in mind, some peoples logic dictates that there is no problem with the prophet (عليه السلام) not leaving behind any leader and having his ummah choose for X, Y, and Z reason. Others believe that this is illogical for X, Y, and Z reason. In the end, it is impossible to make a conclusive statement just from this event alone. I hope that answers the question. 

Also, history is very divided if what you said is correct. According to other Sunnis, the reason people were unhappy with Ali wasn't because of what you stated, but because of an issue related to money. 

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Hello Brother, you are looking at this the wrong way. Something like Ghadeer can never be definitively proved because if it were then we would all be shia right?

 

Instead, use the character of Imam Ali and the other 11 imams that followed him and use the character of Abu Bakr and the other caliphs that followed him and decide upon yourself which man was the rightful successor.

You will find that some of the caliphs were known to be corrupt, selfish, hypocritical, heavy drinkers, adulterers and secular, whereas every single imam was known to be pure. In fact, Imam Ali al-Rida (Eight Imam) rejected an offer to take over the caliphate.

Ma’mun [Caliph at the time] said, ‘I thought of deposing myself from the caliphate, appointing you [Ali al-Rida] instead of my self and pledging my allegiance to you’. The Imam replied, ‘You are either the rightful leader or you are not. If this caliphate rightfully belongs to you and if this caliphate is a divine caliphate, then you have no right to take off the garb that Allah has chosen for you and give it to someone else.

And if it does not belong to you then you still do not have the right to give it out. Why should you give something that is not yours to someone else? This means that the caliphate does not belong to you. You must announce like Mu‘awiyah, the son of Yazid that I am not rightful and inevitably denigrate your father just as he denigrated and say, ‘My fathers put this garb on unrightfully. I also wore it unrightfully throughout these times, I will therefore leave.’ You must not say I am handing over and entrusting the caliphate.’

The Imam completely rejected the offer. Now this is how someone with the blood of prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) would respond. Most people would have accepted the offer, in fact, the Shia at the time wanted him to accept the offer, but he did not. Another one of many example is the story below of Imam Al-Hadi (tenth Imam):

On a dark night, Mutawakkil’s [Caliph at the time] guards stormed Imam al-Hadi’s residence. Word had reached the Abbasid ruler that weapons and letters from loyal supporters were hidden in the Holy Imam’s home. The guards barged in and searched the premises for any sign of dissidence. They initially found nothing of the sort…

But then the guards opened the door of a closed off room, only to find the Holy Imam… Their gazes rested upon the devout master – who was dressed in wool, sitting on the sand and gravel, and directing himself toward the Almighty while reciting verses from the Holy Scripture. Reminded of their orders [To bring the Imam to the Caliph], the guards carried Imam al-Hadi off to Mutawakkil.

“We did not find anything in his house; and we found him facing the qiblah (direction of prayer), reading the Quran.” explained the guards. Mutawakkil had been drinking alcohol when the Holy Imam was brought before him. The corrupt ruler offered the Holy Imam his drink (which is forbidden by Islam). Imam al-Hadi refused, saying, “By God, never has it mixed with my flesh and blood at all, so excuse me.”

 

It is so clear by simply comparing Mutawakkil to Imam al-Hadi who the rightful successor of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is. To sum up: 

It is obligatory for the people of faith (Muslims) to act upon the Qur’an and Sunnah, and to refrain from what they prohibit. The Holy Prophet (S) said:

"I leave behind two weighty things among you: The Book of Allah (Quran) and my Progeny (Descendants), my Ahl Al-Bayt [Referring to the Imam Ali, Hassan and Husayn] If you adhere to those two you shall not go astray. And know that these two shall not separate till they meet me at Hauz (Kauthar)" (Sahih Muslim, Hadith: 2408).

Read about the lives of the imams and you will be shown the correct path. May allah guide us all.

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3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Please do so. 

After 12th of Muharram.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

And the Hadith which you quoted that umar congratulated ali is also weak. 

It cannot be weak. When there is a sahih hadith, according to your scholars, which mentions:

 

سلموا على علي بإمرة المؤمنين

So companions, including Abu Bakr & Umar congratulated Imam Ali (عليه السلام). And there as was poetry of Hassan bin Thabit in the history books.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Hadith is authentic. But 'after me' would be rejected according to usool of Hadith.

You know you are set free to reject everything & every truth which dismisses your creed. So reject "after me" in this and then twist the meaning of "mowla" to defend every lie.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This hadeeth is also fabricated

I am in no mood to laugh tonight. 

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

These three ahadith don't talk about khilafah. Only a man with a high level of intellect can tell about how saying ali is with haq and haq is with ali, proves his appointment. 

None of these three were quoted to prove appointment. They were quoted to mention this:

16 hours ago, Cool said:

are referring the الأفعال والأقوال الظاهرة of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which non of our opponent can deny and Ali (عليه السلام) was in the stage of اولى in the place of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) well before the declaration made at Ghadir by stating الست اولى بالمومنين من انفسهم. 

 

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

sharif murtaza is not a hujjah upon me.

That's why I have given you the references of "your" books & "your" scholars which I think are hujjah upon you. 

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Quote my full argument then try to answer it sir.

Again, I am in no mood to laugh tonight.

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

They didn't fight on neither side because they heard the prophet whenever you see fitna then break your swords and don't participate

Wow, what a great piece of reasoning!!

As they have not heard from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that Ali (عليه السلام) is their "mowla". Neither they heard from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that Ali is with haqq & haqq is with Ali. And nor were they aware of the verse of "Ulil Amr" which obligated them to obey and help the rightful & truthful caliph. 

Even the martyrdom of Ammar (رضي الله عنه) is not sufficient for you people to recognize the haqq & declare it. Mixing truth & falsehood is a common practice of our Sunni brothers and the clear evidence of this is their declaration of Muawiyah's rebellious behavior as his "ijtihadi mistake" and then granting him one goodness. 

 

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1 حسن: رواه أحمد “4/ 281″، وفي “فضائل الصحابة” “1042” وابن ماجه “116”، وابن أبي عاصم في “السنة” “1363” من طريق حماد بن سلمة، به.
قلت: إسناده ضعيف، فيه علي بن زيد بن جدعان، وهو إن كان ضعيفا، فقد تابعه أبو هارون العبدي، وهو ضعيف ضعفه جمع من العلماء، فالحديث حسن بمتابعته.

1- Hasan/Good: Narrated by Ahmad 4/281, and in Fadail-us-Sahaba 1042, and Ibn Maja 116, and Ibn Abi Asim in al-Sunnah 1363 with Chain of Hamad bin Salma

I say:- This Chain is Weak, and it has Ali bin Zaid bin Juda’an, and he was weak. And He is followed by Abu Haroon al A’badi, and He is weak, weakened by Scholars. So the Hadeeth is Hasan/Good due to following

Those who have weakened the chain, have mainly criticized Ali bin Zaid bin Juda’an. The narration which has been mentioned in Musnad Ahmad, has also been present in Sunan Ibn Maja, and the Narration goes like this

 حدثنا علي بن محمد حدثنا أبو الحسين أخبرني حماد بن سلمة عن علي بن زيد بن جدعان عن عدي بن ثابت عن البراء بن عازب قال MEDIA-H1.GIFأقبلنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في حجته التي حج فنزل في بعض الطريق فأمر الصلاة جامعة فأخذ بيد علي رضي الله عنه فقال ألست أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم قالوا بلى قال ألست أولى بكل مؤمن من نفسه قالوا بلى قال فهذا ولي من أنا مولاه اللهم وال من والاه اللهم عاد من عاداه

You can see that Ali bin Zaid bin Juda’an is present in this Narration, though the congratulation part is missing. And what is more interesting here is, that Sheikh Albany included this Narration in his Sahih Sunan Ibn Maja, 1/56, Narration 115 & Termed it Saheeh/Authentic

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23 minutes ago, Cool said:

It cannot be weak. When there is a sahih hadith, according to your scholars, which mentions:

It is. Ali bin zaid is weak. 

 

23 minutes ago, Cool said:

When there is a sahih hadith, according to your scholars, which mentions:

 

سلموا على علي بإمرة المؤمنين

Provide the chain. Then we will see whether it is sahih Or not. 

 

24 minutes ago, Cool said:

You know you are set free to reject everything & every truth which dismisses your creed. So reject "after me" in this and then twist the meaning of "mowla" to defend every lie.

I weaken that part due to principles of hadeeth. If you don't understand any of that then that's not my problem. 

 

25 minutes ago, Cool said:

And there as was poetry of Hassan bin Thabit in the history books

It is chainless. 

 

25 minutes ago, Cool said:

I am in no mood to laugh tonight

It is fabricated. Provide the chain of the narration if want it to be proven. 

 

26 minutes ago, Cool said:

That's why I have given you the references of "your" books & "your" scholars which I think are hujjah upon you

And all those 'references' turn out to be weak and fabricated. Nice work 

 

27 minutes ago, Cool said:

Again, I am in no mood to laugh tonight.

Indeed, try to fully quote the argument then try to answer. 

 

28 minutes ago, Cool said:

Neither they heard from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that Ali is with haqq & haqq is with Ali.

Weak Hadith. Weak Hadith are not hujjah in aqeedah. 

 

28 minutes ago, Cool said:

Even the martyrdom of Ammar (رضي الله عنه) is not sufficient for you people to recognize the haqq & declare it. Mixing truth & falsehood is a common practice of our Sunni brothers and the clear evidence of this is their declaration of Muawiyah's rebellious behavior as his "ijtihadi mistake" and then granting him one goodness

Completely irrelevant

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6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

 

1 حسن: رواه أحمد “4/ 281″، وفي “فضائل الصحابة” “1042” وابن ماجه “116”، وابن أبي عاصم في “السنة” “1363” من طريق حماد بن سلمة، به.
قلت: إسناده ضعيف، فيه علي بن زيد بن جدعان، وهو إن كان ضعيفا، فقد تابعه أبو هارون العبدي، وهو ضعيف ضعفه جمع من العلماء، فالحديث حسن بمتابعت

The muhaqqiq clearly said that isnad is weak. The hadeeth in general hasan due to additional chains but the part of congratulation is weak. 

 

7 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You can see that Ali bin Zaid bin Juda’an is present in this Narration, though the congratulation part is missing. And what is more interesting here is, that Sheikh Albany included this Narration in his Sahih Sunan Ibn Maja, 1/56, Narration 115 & Termed it Saheeh/Authentic

Sorry. I am not a salafi. We don't consider albani as a hujjah

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

The muhaqqiq clearly said that isnad is weak. The hadeeth in general has an due to additional chains but the part of congratulation is weak. 

 

Sorry. I am not a salafi. We don't consider albani as a hujjah

Yes it means some Sunnis authenticity it and others weaken it, depending on what group you belong.

If your original purpose is to bring our scholar opinion to tell that this event does not show anything about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) succession then you really have failed. For sake of argument let say that they really mean it, we still have our Imams (عليه السلام) who clearly point out that this event is talking about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) succession.

If you try to show that Event of Ghadir by itself does not talk about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sucession then you have failed to show any logical reason why so. Last time you said that the reason why the Prophet demonstrated his authority is because of the serious of matter and I clearly gave valid reason why such a thing is not so. But you clearly ignore it.

Edited by Abu Nur
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4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes it means some Sunnis authenticity it and others weaken it, depending on what group you belong.

Nobody authenticated the Hadith of umar congratulating ali. Those who authenticated it ruled it hasan li ghayrihi and they were talking abou Hadith ghadeer in general not the congratulating part. 

6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If your original purpose is to bring our scholar opinion to tell that this event does not show anything about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) succession then you really have failed

Sorry sir i didn't failed. My purpose was to point out that the Hadith was vague. I quote your scholars to further prove my point. 

 

7 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If you try to show that Event of Ghadir by itself does not talk about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sucession then you have failed to show any logical reason why so

I proved that very beautifully that how it was weak, and none of you dare to fully quote the arguement and try to reply it. 

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

. Last time you said that the reason why the Prophet demonstrated his authority is because of the serious of matter and I clearly gave valid reason why such a thing is not so. But you clearly ignore it

I didn't answer it because my previous post already had the answer to that. I also gave the example. Try and read that. 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Sorry sir i didn't failed. My purpose was to point out that the Hadith was vague. I quote your scholars to further prove my point. 
I proved that very beautifully that how it was weak, and none of you dare to fully quote the arguement and try to reply it. 

You quoted our scholars that mostly never meant what you are trying to prove. This Shia Sahih narration itself prove that The Prophet appointed The Wilayah of Imam Ali and also explained it to people!

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَ الْفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَ بُكَيْرِ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ وَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ وَ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ وَ أَبِي الْجَارُودِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع قَالَ أَمَرَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ رَسُولَهُ بِوَلَايَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ- إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَ يُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَ فَرَضَ وَلَايَةَ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ فَلَمْ يَدْرُوا مَا هِيَ فَأَمَرَ اللَّهُ مُحَمَّداً ص أَنْ يُفَسِّرَ لَهُمُ الْوَلَايَةَ كَمَا فَسَّرَ لَهُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَ الزَّكَاةَ وَ الصَّوْمَ وَ الْحَجَّ فَلَمَّا أَتَاهُ ذَلِكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ ضَاقَ بِذَلِكَ صَدْرُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ تَخَوَّفَ أَنْ يَرْتَدُّوا عَنْ دِينِهِمْ وَ أَنْ يُكَذِّبُوهُ فَضَاقَ صَدْرُهُ وَ رَاجَعَ رَبَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ فَأَوْحَى اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ إِلَيْهِ- يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ ما أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَ إِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَما بَلَّغْتَ رِسالَتَهُ وَ اللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَصَدَعَ بِأَمْرِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ فَقَامَ بِوَلَايَةِ عَلِيٍّ ع يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَنَادَى الصَّلَاةَ جَامِعَةً وَ أَمَرَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُبَلِّغَ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِبَ

From Zurārah, al-Fudayl bin Yasār, Bukayr bin A`yan, Muhammad bin Muslim, Burayd bin Mu`āwiyah, and Abī Jarūd from Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: “Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) commanded his Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with wilāyah of `Alī, and revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) – “Only Allāh, His Messenger, and those believers who establish al-Salāh and pay al-Zakāh.’ (5:55) He has made wilāyah of the Ulil Amr fard (mandatory), and they (the people) did not know who they were. Allāh commanded Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he explains to them al-Wilāyah like he has explained to them al-Salāh, al-Zakāh, al-Sawm, al-Hajj. So when this came to him from Allāh, He tightened with that the Messenger of Allāh’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chest, and he became frightened that people will apostate from their religion and they would (accuse) him of lying, and his chest became tightened, and he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) returned to his Lord (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ), and Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) revealed (wahy) to him - ‘O Messenger, convey what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so, it will be as though you have not conveyed My message. Allāh protects you from men.’ (5:67). So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) executed the command of Allāh (تعالى), and he mentioned and established the wilāyah of `Alī (عليه السلام) on the day of Ghadīr, and he called for a congregational salāh and commanded the people to convey what they witnessed to the absentees (i.e. convey the news of Wilāyah of `Alī to those who are not present)”

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I didn't answer it because my previous post already had the answer to that. I also gave the example. Try and read that. 

How can it answer when I already answered your example of how it is no logically valid. 

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I proved that very beautifully that how it was weak, and none of you dare to fully quote the arguement and try to reply it. 

The event is not weak. For sake of argument, you came to prove us about this event, because it is not hujjah upon us your narration, then what do you think you can prove us Shias about this event when we have many sahih narrations that show this event is about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sucession? 

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15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The event is not weak. For sake of argument, you came to prove us about this event, because it is not hujjah upon us your narration, then what do you think you can prove us Shias about this event when we have many sahih narrations that show this event is about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sucession? 

I did not provide any narration from my book. I proved it was vague based on logic which you cannot refute. 

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On 8/5/2022 at 10:57 AM, sunni muslim said:

I invite shias to prove how ghadeer khum is a clear appointment of sayyiduna ali. 

There are numerous threads on this topic so why not another one!

Would you mind listing may be 8-10 types of criteria that would satisfy this curiosity? Otherwise it could be a wild goose chase where ppl will keep bringing proof and you will keep rejecting it.

Keep in mind after 13 years in Mecca, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) could only convince a handful of arabs to accept Islam so the onus is not on us to convince you but for you to find your own truth.

Along those lines, there is Ali (عليه السلام) who was the first to accept Islam (is that a criterion?) and also Abu Sufiyan who never really accepted Islam other than by his lips. Where you fall on this scale of truth acceptance is really up to you.

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22 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You quoted our scholars that mostly never meant what you are trying to prove.

They meant what I was trying to prove. They clearly said that ghadeer and manzila is nass khadi meaning hidden proof. 

24 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَ الْفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَ بُكَيْرِ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ وَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ وَ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ وَ أَبِي الْجَارُودِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع قَالَ أَمَرَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ رَسُولَهُ بِوَلَايَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ- إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَ يُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَ فَرَضَ وَلَايَةَ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ فَلَمْ يَدْرُوا مَا هِيَ فَأَمَرَ اللَّهُ مُحَمَّداً ص أَنْ يُفَسِّرَ لَهُمُ الْوَلَايَةَ كَمَا فَسَّرَ لَهُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَ الزَّكَاةَ وَ الصَّوْمَ وَ الْحَجَّ فَلَمَّا أَتَاهُ ذَلِكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ ضَاقَ بِذَلِكَ صَدْرُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ تَخَوَّفَ أَنْ يَرْتَدُّوا عَنْ دِينِهِمْ وَ أَنْ يُكَذِّبُوهُ فَضَاقَ صَدْرُهُ وَ رَاجَعَ رَبَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ فَأَوْحَى اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ إِلَيْهِ- يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ ما أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَ إِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَما بَلَّغْتَ رِسالَتَهُ وَ اللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَصَدَعَ بِأَمْرِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ فَقَامَ بِوَلَايَةِ عَلِيٍّ ع يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَنَادَى الصَّلَاةَ جَامِعَةً وَ أَمَرَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُبَلِّغَ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِبَ

From Zurārah, al-Fudayl bin Yasār, Bukayr bin A`yan, Muhammad bin Muslim, Burayd bin Mu`āwiyah, and Abī Jarūd from Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: “Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) commanded his Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with wilāyah of `Alī, and revealed to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) – “Only Allāh, His Messenger, and those believers who establish al-Salāh and pay al-Zakāh.’ (5:55) He has made wilāyah of the Ulil Amr fard (mandatory), and they (the people) did not know who they were. Allāh commanded Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he explains to them al-Wilāyah like he has explained to them al-Salāh, al-Zakāh, al-Sawm, al-Hajj. So when this came to him from Allāh, He tightened with that the Messenger of Allāh’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chest, and he became frightened that people will apostate from their religion and they would (accuse) him of lying, and his chest became tightened, and he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) returned to his Lord (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ), and Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) revealed (wahy) to him - ‘O Messenger, convey what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so, it will be as though you have not conveyed My message. Allāh protects you from men.’ (5:67). So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) executed the command of Allāh (تعالى), and he mentioned and established the wilāyah of `Alī (عليه السلام) on the day of Ghadīr, and he called for a congregational salāh and commanded the people to convey what they witnessed to the absentees (i.e. convey the news of Wilāyah of `Alī to those who are not present

Your book is not any hujjah upon me. And the fact that prophet was 'scared ' naudhobillah is utter nonsense. Whoever read his seerah knows that he never cared about anyone when he was preaching the truth. Heck, even meraj refutes your claim. When the prophet proclaimed his prophethood, his followers were tortured immensely, then at 9 year after prophethood, he claim that he had gone through 7 heavens and meet his Lord. He was not afraid of his followers of apostasizing, proclaiming that he went to aqsa 7 heavens, in a short period in night in front of his followers who was getting tortured, some of their parents got killed but he was afraid to appoint his cousin as his successor. Nice joke. Try again later. 

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10 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Repeat it here, what logic?

Sure here it is 

On 8/7/2022 at 10:50 PM, sunni muslim said:

Even if we consider it as master it still doesn't explain the fact that it is vague even according topmost shia scholars. It is so vague that none of the companions who were born arabs didn't understood the  'clear unambigious' proof and unknowingly transmitted it among the masses like it is some kind of a virtue while in actuality it was supposed to be his appointment. The reason they never understood is that no one appoint their successor using such a vague wording. Had the prophet used the clear cut simple wording like 'ali is my successor' then we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a hadith like ' ali is my successor' and arguing that it does not mean appointment. It would be impossible to interpret in any other way. And you wouldn't be even need to write lengthy articles, recording hours of video to prove that. People make their successor simply by saying so and so is my successor. Prophet using such a vague wording that his own companions never understood it is also ridiculous and an attack towards him. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Your book is not any hujjah upon me. And the fact that prophet was 'scared ' naudhobillah is utter nonsense. Whoever read his seerah knows that he never cared about anyone when he was preaching the truth. Heck, even meraj refutes your claim. When the prophet proclaimed his prophethood, his followers were tortured immensely, then at 9 year after prophethood, he claim that he had gone through 7 heavens and meet his Lord. He was not afraid of his followers of apostasizing, proclaiming that he went to aqsa 7 heavens, in a short period in night in front of his followers who was getting tortured, some of their parents got killed but he was afraid to appoint his cousin as his successor. Nice joke. Try again later. 

You are really a joke. You really demonstrate that you have little capacity of comprehending things. Do you think that here Prophet is fearing the people or that the he is fearing of his Ummah for apostasy? This is another event and another case of fear:

‘Uqbah ibn ‘Āmir (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said: "I fear two things for my Ummah: the Qur’an and milk. As for milk, they seek the countryside, follow desires, and neglect the prayers. As for the Qur’an, the hypocrites learn it to argue with the believers by means of it."  Sahih/Authentic. - [Ahmad]

I quoted the hadith not for you but refuting your argument of "They meant what I was trying to prove. They clearly said that ghadeer and manzila is nass khadi meaning hidden proof."

How it is hidden when I just showed you a clear narration on Ghadir that have nothing to do with hidden Proof? If some of our scholars really thought that Ghader is a hidden proof then they are wrong because it goes against the Shia Sahih hadiths. But mostly Sunnis always misquote or misunderstand their arguments.

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5 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This Hadith is chainless

Firstly, my question is that why was such a huge arrangement of ghadeer was made by prophet (pbuhhp). What your logic says about it? Secondly, Where did you get that this Hadith is chainless about Hasan ibn Sabit? 

 

5 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

This is from your books not ours. So it's not a hujjah upon us. And sunnis don't consider burning, a punishment for homosexuals. 

This is not from our books. Tarikh-e-Yaqubi is a historical book and it's not know whether it's shia or sunni. However, I will give you further examples where Hazrat Abu Bakar sought help of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

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31 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Even if we consider it as master it still doesn't explain the fact that it is vague even according topmost shia scholars. It is so vague that none of the companions who were born arabs didn't understood the  'clear unambigious' proof and unknowingly transmitted it among the masses like it is some kind of a virtue while in actuality it was supposed to be his appointment. The reason they never understood is that no one appoint their successor using such a vague wording. Had the prophet used the clear cut simple wording like 'ali is my successor' then we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a hadith like ' ali is my successor' and arguing that it does not mean appointment. It would be impossible to interpret in any other way. And you wouldn't be even need to write lengthy articles, recording hours of video to prove that. People make their successor simply by saying so and so is my successor. Prophet using such a vague wording that his own companions never understood it is also ridiculous and an attack towards him. 

 

This nonsense does not work at all for us Shias because we have narrations that the Prophet (saws) explained his succession clearly. This argument can only work with Sunni narrations when they don't find anything about the succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in their books.

The first lines of Ghadeer itself are self evident that Prophet is talking about authority. This is something you try to deny it by saying it means seriousness. What a joke.

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Heck, one of the narrators of this hadeeth is saad bin abi waqqas who loved ali and always defended him by quoting hadith ghadeer. But you know what, he never opined that Ali should be caliph in the era of the three caliphs.

Sa‘d b. Waqqāṣ tells Mu‘āwīyah that ‘Alī is more deserving to be a ruler than him, upon which Mu‘āwīyah asks why. Sa‘d says: Because the Messenger of Allah said, Man Kunto Mawla Fa ‘Alīyun Mawla. Ansāb al-Ashrāf, vol. 5, pg. 87-88.

 

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15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You are really a joke. You really demonstrate that you have little capacity of comprehending things. Do you think that here Prophet is fearing the people or that the he is fearing of his Ummah for apostasy? This is another event and another case of fear:

‘Uqbah ibn ‘Āmir (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said: "I fear two things for my Ummah: the Qur’an and milk. As for milk, they seek the countryside, follow desires, and neglect the prayers. As for the Qur’an, the hypocrites learn it to argue with the believers by means of it."  Sahih/Authentic. - [Ahmad

It's you who can't comprehend  things. You are saying that the prophet was scared of announcing ali's caliphate because he was scared that people may apostasize. I am saying that announcing that he went to aqsa and above seven heavens to his followers who have been tortured severely is much more worthy of being afraid of their apostasy. But he didn't care about anything he preached the truth without caring if someone apostasize or not. 

18 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Firstly, my question is that why was such a huge arrangement of ghadeer was made by prophet (pbuhhp). What your logic says about it?

Already explained. Read my earlier posts about what happened. 

 

19 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Secondly, Where did you get that this Hadith is chainless about Hasan ibn Sabit

The Hadith has no chain. That's why it is chainless. 

 

11 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

This nonsense does not work at all for us Shias because we have narrations that the Prophet (saws) explained his succession clearly. This argument can only work with Sunni narrations when they don't find anything about the succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in their books.

 

11 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The first lines of Ghadeer itself are self evident that Prophet is talking about authority. This is something you try to deny it by saying it means seriousness. What a joke

It's your arguement which was joke. Out of all companions who were born arabs, didn't understood that ghadeer means appointment, selected an another guy for rulership, and then go on heavily transmit it among the masses thinking it is somekind of a virtue, and the intelligent shia understood it to be appointment. Any guy who first read that Hadith without shia further explainings, he couldn't even understand how this is appointment. 

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5 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Sa‘d b. Waqqāṣ tells Mu‘āwīyah that ‘Alī is more deserving to be a ruler than him, upon which Mu‘āwīyah asks why. Sa‘d says: Because the Messenger of Allah said, Man Kunto Mawla Fa ‘Alīyun Mawla. Ansāb al-Ashrāf, vol. 5, pg. 87-88.

 

Sorry to break you heart. Ansab ul asraf is filled with weak and fabricated narrations. Instead what the authentic narrations says is that muawiya criticized ali, then sad bin abi waqqas quoted the two Hadith which is manzila, and ghadeer. And that's what the companions did. They would quote this Hadith when someone tries to abuse ali, but they didn't quote this Hadith when discussion for caliphate is going on. None of the companions quoted ghadeer at the time of saqifa Or after umar nominated 6 men, they quoted it when someone criticized ali. 

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"من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار"
'Whoever follows me must follow him [Ali] oh god be guardian over those who follow him, be an enemy to those who take him [Ali] as an enemy, aid those who aid him, hinder those who hinder him and let justice commence wherever he commences'

This sentence made me contemplate much about Ali ((عليه السلام)) and his status even though I was never raised as a Shia. 
I don't see how anyone could read it and not be convinced of Ali ((عليه السلام)) 's status and significance; for the prophet has honoured him and only him with such words.  

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On 8/8/2022 at 2:18 PM, sunni muslim said:

 

Abu Bakr – ‘Amr b. Sa’d Abu Dawud al-Hafri – Sharik – al-Rakin – al-Qasim b. Hisan – Zayd b. Thabit:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “I AM LEAVING BEHIND AMONG YOU the two khalifahs after me: the Book of Allah and my bloodline, my Ahl al-Bayt. Both shall never separate from each other until they meet me at the Lake-Font.”

Allamah al-Albani declare

It is a sahih hadith.

https://www.al-islam.org/khilafah-ali-over-abu-bakr-toyib-olawuyi/preface

Hadith

The verse

"Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)"

was revealed to the Prophet (S) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered ‘Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O’ Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification.”Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?”the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

What you say now?

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1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

It's you who can't comprehend  things. You are saying that the prophet was scared of announcing ali's caliphate because he was scared that people may apostasize. I am saying that announcing that he went to aqsa and above seven heavens to his followers who have been tortured severely is much more worthy of being afraid of their apostasy. But he didn't care about anything he preached the truth without caring if someone apostasize or not. 

Don't you understand that it is more of concern of his care of his Ummah that if he says this many people will reject it. So he postponed it till Allah send the verse of Qur'an:

‘O Messenger, convey what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so, it will be as though you have not conveyed My message. Allāh protects you from men.’ (5:67).

Why in the world Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) need to tell the prophet "convey what is revealed to you" and "If you do not do so" if he don't care about others. It is more logical that he had an concern about this issue but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) calmed him down and commanded that no matter what you need to convey it and so did he do so.

I really don't see what Aqsa argument have to do with what is worthy to be afraid.

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It's your arguement which was joke. Out of all companions who were born arabs, didn't understood that ghadeer means appointment, selected an another guy for rulership, and then go on heavily transmit it among the masses thinking it is somekind of a virtue, and the intelligent shia understood it to be appointment. Any guy who first read that Hadith without shia further explainings, he couldn't even understand how this is appointment. 

 

Here we go again Sunni narrative based on Sunni mindset with Sunni history. In Shia Narrative and Hadiths, The Ghadeer was an appointment. The Shia narrative also say that many of them apostated and that Abu Bakr and Umar were hypocrisy, so do you think a hypocrisy man will narrate this narration in Saqifah?

If you want to not be biased, then do not quote Sunni or Shia narrative but focus on the context of hadith itself

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Sorry to break you heart. Ansab ul asraf is filled with weak and fabricated narrations. Instead what the authentic narrations says is that muawiya criticized ali, then sad bin abi waqqas quoted the two Hadith which is manzila, and ghadeer. And that's what the companions did. They would quote this Hadith when someone tries to abuse ali, but they didn't quote this Hadith when discussion for caliphate is going on. None of the companions quoted ghadeer at the time of saqifa Or after umar nominated 6 men, they quoted it when someone criticized ali. 

 

Is the narration weak and fabrication? Is the narration of "‘Alī is more deserving to be a ruler than him" weak and fabricated? 

Edited by Abu Nur
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