Ghadeer khum, clear proof of appointment?

[sunni muslim]

I invite shias to prove how ghadeer khum is a clear appointment of sayyiduna ali. 

[Abu_Zahra]

https://iqraonline.net/from-the-narration-of-ghadir-to-eid-of-ghadir/

[VoidVortex]

If you know arabic and can find the book there is an entire encyclopedia about it called Al-Ghadeer by Allamah al-Amini

Al-Ghadir - Wikipedia

[sunni muslim]

8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

https://iqraonline.net/from-the-narration-of-ghadir-to-eid-of-ghadir/

 

4 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

If you know arabic and can find the book there is an entire encyclopedia about it called Al-Ghadeer by Allamah al-Amini

Al-Ghadir - Wikipedia

Post the arguement here. 

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

 

Post the arguement here. 

Brother welcome to Shiachat. 

With regard to the title of the thread as Ghadeer event, there are many threads at SC. If you like to understand the topic you may check those.

If you have any question about the hadith of Ghadeer or this event in history of islam, please do mention your understanding so that it can be responded by SC members.

wsalam

[sunni muslim]

45 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother welcome to Shiachat. 

With regard to the title of the thread as Ghadeer event, there are many threads at SC. If you like to understand the topic you may check those.

If you have any question about the hadith of Ghadeer or this event in history of islam, please do mention your understanding so that it can be responded by SC members.

wsalam

Thanks. I checked many of those. None of them had a satisfying answer as to why hadith ghadeer and hadith manzila is a clear cut proof for sayyiduna Ali's appointment. Even some of your scholars have accepted the fact that it is vague. Sharif Murtada stated:

 

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

 

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

Shia Scholar Muhaqiq al-Hilli, who was quoted by Ayatullah Ridha Ustadi in “Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399;400 :

 

الوجه الثاني : على إمامته فيجب أن يكون إماما.

أما النص عليه فقسمان جلي وخفي أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

وأما الخفي فقوله عليه السلام : (من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار.

وقوله عليه السلام : أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى.

 

Second thing: Regarding his Imamah and that he has to be an Imam. What is regarding nass upon him, there are two types: clear and hidden. As for regarding clear one  – they are proofs been narrated by later shias from their pious ancestors, till messenger (alaihi salam), from his indications, that couldn’t be interpreted (in other way)……

 

As for HIDDEN proofs that is saying of alaihi salam: “To whom ever I am mawla, Ali is his mawla. O Allah befriend with the one who will befriend with him, and be enemy with the one who is his enemy. And give a victory to the one who will support him, and humiliate to the one who will humiliate him, and make truth with him, where ever he will be”.

 

And his saying – alayhi salam – “You are for me like Haroon to Moses”. [“Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399) 

[Abu Nur]

6 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Thanks. I checked many of those. None of them had a satisfying answer as to why hadith ghadeer and hadith manzila is a clear cut proof for sayyiduna Ali's appointment. Even some of your scholars have accepted the fact that it is vague. Sharif Murtada stated:

 

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

 

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

Shia Scholar Muhaqiq al-Hilli, who was quoted by Ayatullah Ridha Ustadi in “Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399;400 :

 

الوجه الثاني : على إمامته فيجب أن يكون إماما.

أما النص عليه فقسمان جلي وخفي أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

وأما الخفي فقوله عليه السلام : (من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار.

وقوله عليه السلام : أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى.

 

Second thing: Regarding his Imamah and that he has to be an Imam. What is regarding nass upon him, there are two types: clear and hidden. As for regarding clear one  – they are proofs been narrated by later shias from their pious ancestors, till messenger (alaihi salam), from his indications, that couldn’t be interpreted (in other way)……

 

As for HIDDEN proofs that is saying of alaihi salam: “To whom ever I am mawla, Ali is his mawla. O Allah befriend with the one who will befriend with him, and be enemy with the one who is his enemy. And give a victory to the one who will support him, and humiliate to the one who will humiliate him, and make truth with him, where ever he will be”.

 

And his saying – alayhi salam – “You are for me like Haroon to Moses”. [“Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399) 

Read https://iqraonline.net/from-the-narration-of-ghadir-to-eid-of-ghadir/

That is the answer that you are not looking for. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Thanks. I checked many of those. None of them had a satisfying answer as to why hadith ghadeer and hadith manzila is a clear cut proof for sayyiduna Ali's appointment. Even some of your scholars have accepted the fact that it is vague. Sharif Murtada stated:

 

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

 

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

Shia Scholar Muhaqiq al-Hilli, who was quoted by Ayatullah Ridha Ustadi in “Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399;400 :

 

الوجه الثاني : على إمامته فيجب أن يكون إماما.

أما النص عليه فقسمان جلي وخفي أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

وأما الخفي فقوله عليه السلام : (من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار.

وقوله عليه السلام : أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى.

 

Second thing: Regarding his Imamah and that he has to be an Imam. What is regarding nass upon him, there are two types: clear and hidden. As for regarding clear one  – they are proofs been narrated by later shias from their pious ancestors, till messenger (alaihi salam), from his indications, that couldn’t be interpreted (in other way)……

 

As for HIDDEN proofs that is saying of alaihi salam: “To whom ever I am mawla, Ali is his mawla. O Allah befriend with the one who will befriend with him, and be enemy with the one who is his enemy. And give a victory to the one who will support him, and humiliate to the one who will humiliate him, and make truth with him, where ever he will be”.

 

And his saying – alayhi salam – “You are for me like Haroon to Moses”. [“Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399) 

Brothers @Qa'im @Ibn Al-Ja'abi, if you could shed some light on this matter, or refer the question to someone who can, it would be a great help.

[sunni muslim]

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Read https://iqraonline.net/from-the-narration-of-ghadir-to-eid-of-ghadir/

That is the answer that you are not looking for. 

 The answer is not there which I asked. This is theire main arguement

(Imamate is by Divine Explicit Designation and Ghadīr is the Most Important Evidence

It is imperative that I mention two points:

 

1) In the Quran, many of the Prophets (p) mentioned are father and son; such as Ibrāhīm and Ismā‘īl. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) refers to this as

 

ذُرِّيَّةًۢ بَعْضُهَا مِنۢ بَعْضٍ

 

[3:34] They are descendants of one another.

 

I do not want to argue for the legitimacy of Imamate in one progeny through this verse, because the Quran’s main emphasis is on the piety of an individual, as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself informs Prophet (p) Ibrahim: [2:124] My covenant is not extended to the wrongdoers.

 

Nevertheless, in general, the notion of being a descendant is mentioned in the Quran. Therefore, besides the notion of descendants, the most important evidence for the Shī‘a for the divine explicit appointment for Imamate of ‘Alī (a) is the event of Ghadīr. It is for this reason that the event of Ghadīr has been given utmost attention.

 

2) Furthermore, the terms Imam and Walī in the Quran have been used in the meaning of leadership and authority. The word Khalīfa has also been used for humans in general and elsewhere Prophet Dawūd (a) is also addressed as a Khalīfa of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on earth. However, in the story of Ibrahim (a), the term Imam is used:

 

إِنِّى جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا

 

[2:124] I am appointing you as a leader for mankind.

 

Another verse:

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟

 

[5:55] Your only guardians are Allah, His Messenger, and fellow believers…

 

is also further evidence that the term walī is used in this meaning. It seems the word walī is most often used in the meaning of leadership and this is something that one must pay close attention to.) 

As you can see the main arguement they have is that Allah uses wali as a leader that's why mawla in ghadeer means leader. This is also a false arguement. How do you know that wali in 5:55 means leader. Who told you that. And second of all the verse did revealed for Ali but the verse is general which includes all believers. Since the verse is in plural. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

15 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Thanks. I checked many of those. None of them had a satisfying answer as to why hadith ghadeer and hadith manzila is a clear cut proof for sayyiduna Ali's appointment. Even some of your scholars have accepted the fact that it is vague. Sharif Murtada stated:

 

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

 

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

Shia Scholar Muhaqiq al-Hilli, who was quoted by Ayatullah Ridha Ustadi in “Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399;400 :

 

الوجه الثاني : على إمامته فيجب أن يكون إماما.

أما النص عليه فقسمان جلي وخفي أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

وأما الخفي فقوله عليه السلام : (من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار.

وقوله عليه السلام : أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى.

 

Second thing: Regarding his Imamah and that he has to be an Imam. What is regarding nass upon him, there are two types: clear and hidden. As for regarding clear one  – they are proofs been narrated by later shias from their pious ancestors, till messenger (alaihi salam), from his indications, that couldn’t be interpreted (in other way)……

 

As for HIDDEN proofs that is saying of alaihi salam: “To whom ever I am mawla, Ali is his mawla. O Allah befriend with the one who will befriend with him, and be enemy with the one who is his enemy. And give a victory to the one who will support him, and humiliate to the one who will humiliate him, and make truth with him, where ever he will be”.

 

And his saying – alayhi salam – “You are for me like Haroon to Moses”. [“Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399) 

As regards appointment of a divine vicegerent, surah Baqarah verse 247 says as follows:

[Shakir 2:247] And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

This verse says that appointment of divine vicegerent is responsibility of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and not a Shura as it says that shura deemed Talut as unworthy of kingship but Allah (عزّ وجلّ) choose him as vicegerent. In the similar fashion, Prophet (PBUHHP) declared Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Mawla of all Muslims because he was the only person after Prophet (PBUHHP) who has the leadership qualities of knowledge and courage as declared by verse 247 of Surah Baqarah which was proved later on during the time of first three caliphs that whenever they faced jurisprudential and political problems which they could resolve, they requested Ali ibn Abu Talib for help. While when Imam Ali was caliph, he did not consult anyone for help. 

This, thus, proves that earlier caliphs did not possess qualities of a divine vicegerent as mentioned by Surah Baqarah and only imam Ali has those qualities. Thus, event of ghadeer was arranged to highlight the significance of Imam Ali as vicegerent and there cannot be any other meaning of it.

[Cool]

On 8/5/2022 at 8:57 PM, sunni muslim said:

I invite shias to prove how ghadeer khum is a clear appointment of sayyiduna ali. 

Salam, 

The appointment of Ali (عليه السلام) as a "Successor" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is not limited to Ghadir. You need to start with ذوالعشيرة and move to the end i.e., Ghadeer, where the official announcement was done. 

But before discussing these subjects, please enlighten us what do you mean by "appointment"? Do you think "appointment" of Khalifatullah fe al-ard ( خليفةالله في الارض) is necessary? It is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who appoint khalifah? Or it is the matter of people to appoint Khalifatullah? 

You must start with discussing the "appointment" in the first place. Because what was said by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir started from:

ألست أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم

&

من كنت مولاه

So who declared Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as

أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم ? 

Who appointed Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as مولا of believers? 

We then move towards the next part of the hadith i.e., فهذا علي مولاه

Note: As you are aware that these are the days of Ashura, most of us are busy in majalis & processions. I will most probably get back to your thread after 12th of Muharram, Insha-Allah.

Wassalam!!

[Abu Nur]

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 The answer is not there which I asked. This is theire main arguement

(Imamate is by Divine Explicit Designation and Ghadīr is the Most Important Evidence

It is imperative that I mention two points:

 

1) In the Quran, many of the Prophets (p) mentioned are father and son; such as Ibrāhīm and Ismā‘īl. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) refers to this as

 

ذُرِّيَّةًۢ بَعْضُهَا مِنۢ بَعْضٍ

 

[3:34] They are descendants of one another.

 

I do not want to argue for the legitimacy of Imamate in one progeny through this verse, because the Quran’s main emphasis is on the piety of an individual, as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself informs Prophet (p) Ibrahim: [2:124] My covenant is not extended to the wrongdoers.

 

Nevertheless, in general, the notion of being a descendant is mentioned in the Quran. Therefore, besides the notion of descendants, the most important evidence for the Shī‘a for the divine explicit appointment for Imamate of ‘Alī (a) is the event of Ghadīr. It is for this reason that the event of Ghadīr has been given utmost attention.

 

2) Furthermore, the terms Imam and Walī in the Quran have been used in the meaning of leadership and authority. The word Khalīfa has also been used for humans in general and elsewhere Prophet Dawūd (a) is also addressed as a Khalīfa of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on earth. However, in the story of Ibrahim (a), the term Imam is used:

 

إِنِّى جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا

 

[2:124] I am appointing you as a leader for mankind.

 

Another verse:

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟

 

[5:55] Your only guardians are Allah, His Messenger, and fellow believers…

 

is also further evidence that the term walī is used in this meaning. It seems the word walī is most often used in the meaning of leadership and this is something that one must pay close attention to.) 

As you can see the main arguement they have is that Allah uses wali as a leader that's why mawla in ghadeer means leader. This is also a false arguement. How do you know that wali in 5:55 means leader. Who told you that. And second of all the verse did revealed for Ali but the verse is general which includes all believers. Since the verse is in plural. 

Read the article fully. There are already clear evidences showed how the pressure of Umayyads effected and altered the meaning. As for how do we know that mawla here does not mean friend but rather as an authority. Well read the context of the event before the Man Kunto Mawla:

Then he grabbed the hand of ‘Alī and said: Do you not know that I have more authority (awla) over the believers than themselves?

They replied: Yes.

He (p) said: Do you not know that I have more authority over all the believers than themselves?

They said: Yes.

Then he grabbed the hand of ‘Alī and said: O Allah, whosoever’s mawla I am, then ‘Alī (a) is also his mawla. O Allah, love the one who loves him, and hate the one who hates him.

Source: Faḍā’il al-Ṣaḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 739; Ansāb al-Ashrāf, vol. 2, pg. 356.

---

Literally you can read that whoever consider the prophet (عليه السلام) as having more authority over them then you need to consider Ali (عليه السلام) also having more authority over them. Here Wilāyat is explained as Awlawīyyat (more authority).

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Nur

[sunni muslim]

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

As regards appointment of a divine vicegerent, surah Baqarah verse 247 says as follows:

[Shakir 2:247] And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

This verse says that appointment of divine vicegerent is responsibility of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and not a Shura as it says that shura deemed Talut as unworthy of kingship but Allah (عزّ وجلّ) choose him as vicegerent.

The debate is not about who should appoint the successor. The debate topic is whether hadith ghadeer is a clear proof of appointment of Ali or not. If it is proven that it is not clear then shia have not right to use it against sunnis to prove his appointment. 

 

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

In the similar fashion, Prophet (PBUHHP) declared Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Mawla of all Muslims because he was the only person after Prophet (PBUHHP) who has the leadership qualities of knowledge and courage as declared by verse 247 of Surah Baqarah which was proved later on during the time of first three caliphs that whenever they faced jurisprudential and political problems which they could resolve, they requested Ali ibn Abu Talib for help. While when Imam Ali was caliph, he did not consult anyone for help. 

All of this is false. Abu bakr never asked fiqh questions from Ali. There is absolutely no proof of that. Rather it was abu bakr to whom people asked. When the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed away people gathered around abu bakr and asked him how to perform the janaza and where he should be buried. Umar used to consult ali, uthman, abdullah bin abbas, and many more. I have not heard that about uthman though. 

 

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This, thus, proves that earlier caliphs did not possess qualities of a divine vicegerent as mentioned by Surah Baqarah and only imam Ali has those qualities. Thus, event of ghadeer was arranged to highlight the significance of Imam Ali as vicegerent and there cannot be any other meaning of it.

Both of these are completely different things. Nah there can be many meanings of it. But none of the meanings includes his appointment. Appointment must be clear, unambigious like 'ali is the caliph after me'. Had the prophet announced his caliphate like this, then there would be no possible way to interpret it amin any way or form

[sunni muslim]

43 minutes ago, Cool said:

The appointment of Ali (عليه السلام) as a "Successor" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is not limited to Ghadir. You need to start with ذوالعشيرة and move to the end i.e., Ghadeer, where the official announcement was done

Prophet appointing ali in dawat ul ashirah is not authentic according to us. And the topic is ghadeer but you could also include manzilah. 

 

45 minutes ago, Cool said:

But before discussing these subjects, please enlighten us what do you mean by "appointment"? Do you think "appointment" of Khalifatullah fe al-ard ( خليفةالله في الارض) is necessary? It is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who appoint khalifah? Or it is the matter of people to appoint Khalifatullah? 

As I mentioned earlier, the debate is not about whether Allah himself appoint his successors or not. But whether the hadith ghadir is clear appointment or is it vague. And I challenged the shias to prove it as a clear appointment since you believe it to be clear. 

[sunni muslim]

30 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

As for how do we know that mawla here does not mean friend but rather as an authority. Well read the context of the event before the Man Kunto Mawla:

Then he grabbed the hand of ‘Alī and said: Do you not know that I have more authority (awla) over the believers than themselves?

They replied: Yes.

He (p) said: Do you not know that I have more authority over all the believers than themselves?

They said: Yes.

Then he grabbed the hand of ‘Alī and said: O Allah, whosoever’s mawla I am, then ‘Alī (a) is also his mawla. O Allah, love the one who loves him, and hate the one who hates him.

Source: Faḍā’il al-Ṣaḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 739; Ansāb al-Ashrāf, vol. 2, pg. 356.

---

Literally you can read that whoever consider the prophet (عليه السلام) as having more authority over them then you need to consider Ali (عليه السلام) also having more authority over them. Here Wilāyat is explained as Awlawīyyat (more authority).

It still doesn't prove that. Prophet said do I have more authority over you, the companions said yes, then the prophet said whoever I am beloved friend, ali is his beloved friend, o Allah befriend those who befriend ali and hate those who hate ali. Sit perfectly with the context. Even if we consider the meaning of mawla here is master, it still doesn't prove that ali is the successor. The reason is simple. And is it is completely vague. It is because none of the companions ever understood as his appointment. They were the ones who 'usurped' the right of ali and made abu bakr their caliph. According to some shi'is the companions forgot the ghadeer event and made abu bakr the caliphwhich is complete nonsense. They forget that the companions were the ones who narrated the hadith in the first place. There can be only be two scenarios: 

1) they never understood it as a appointment.

2) they did understood it as a appointment. 

The second one is totally illogical. Because when you usurped someone's right of rulership you don't go around propagating that he was actually a successor. It's like saying that a king of an islamic state announced in front of his people that his son is his successor. But the people usurped it and make an another man their ruler. After usurping his right, they go around propagating to the public that one day the king stood up between us and announce his son as his successor. This is a ludicrous scenario which only happen in the minds of our intellectual shia brothers. The only explanation to that is they never understood that as an appointment. Heck, one of the narrators of this hadeeth is saad bin abi waqqas who loved ali and always defended him by quoting hadith ghadeer. But you know what, he never opined that Ali should be caliph in the era of the three caliphs. He didn't even gave him vote after umar got martyed, he gave his vote to abdurrehman bin auf. There was no pressure on him at that time. If the companions those who narrated the hadith, being arabs never understood it, then the ahlus sunnah are not obliged to believe the it means appointment. And you want to know the reason why the companions never understood it as appointment? Because noone in this world appoint there successor like this. Noone appoint their successor by saying whoever im master so and so as his master.People appoint there successor by simply saying. I am appointing so and so as my successor. The prophet never said clearly that ali is my successor in a clear cut way. They understood it as a command of loving ali after the dispute happens between ali and his companions.

[Cool]

6 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Prophet appointing ali in dawat ul ashirah is not authentic according to us. And the topic is ghadeer but you could also include manzilah. 

Authentic in terms of what? Prophet never mentioned Ali as his caliph? Or the event "dulasheera" itself is not authentic & doubtful?

8 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

And I challenged the shias to prove it as a clear appointment since you believe it to be clear. 

What do you say about Quran? Is it authentic or not? 

Brother, what you will do is to keep twisting the meaning of clear words like our brothers of Ahlul Sunnah do with the word "مولاه".

So I don't see this discussion as beneficial or a proper utilization of time. 

For you, isn't it sufficient to neutrally  ponder over the verses:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

5:67)

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

5:3

فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانْصَبْ

94:7

And ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to open your breast for accepting the truth mentioned in the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The whole context of the verses of al-Maida is discussed in the article referred to you by brothers. I have not something new with me. 

For me, I don't even feel the need of "hadith e ghadir" to accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Wassalam!!

[Cool]

31 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

the prophet said whoever I am beloved friend

Brother, this meaning of mowla doesn't fit here. According to your own books, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was not anyone's "friend":

لَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ خَلِيلاً وَلَكِنَّهُ أَخِي وَصَاحِبِي وَقَدِ اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ صَاحِبَكُمْ خَلِيلاً ‏"‏ ‏.‏

If I were to choose a bosom friend I would have definitely chosen Abu Bakr as my bosom friend, but he is my brother and my companion and Allah, the Exalted and Gliorious. has taken your brother and companion (meaning Prophet himself) as a friend.

So who is Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for you? A friend or a Wali whom you need to obey?

[Cool]

A common Mulsim (of any age,.of any point of time) can only be either the companion of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or either his helper. 

و ما محمد الا رسول

[Abu Hadi]

22 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

 

Post the arguement here. 

The argument rests on three premises

1) Imams / Caliphs (i.e. leaders for the entirety of the Ummah) are appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not chosen by the people.

The proof of this is in Holy Quran in at least two places, that I know of. The appointment of Talut as a 'malik' (King with authority) for Bani Israel and the appointment of Prophet Ibrahim as an Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) after he had been chose as a Prophet. 

2) Imams are chosen to guide the people in the absence of a Prophet (Nabi or Rasoul) and they have the same authority and function as a Prophet. 

There are many instances of this in Quran (Haron being appointed by Musa when he went to Mt. Sinai) as well as in Islamic history. 

3) Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) was the one chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead the people as the Imam after the passing away of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). 

The problem with these types of discussions that we have with the Sunni brothers is that they start with point #3 and try to dismiss it on a 'technicality', i.e. it doesn't appear in this book or that book or we have a certain hadith which contradicts it, even if this hadith may be suspicious. You need to start with point #1 and accept it, from Quran. Then you need to go to point #2, to see the logical necessity of having a leader and a guide in the absence of a Prophet. If you don't accept those, you will never accept #3 no matter how much evidence there is for it. 

We take the acceptance of #3 as an inductive case. In other words, we look at the totality of evidence that points to #3 being true. Ghadir needs to be looked at in the context of all the other proofs that came before it including manzila, ayat of wilayat, mubahilat, battle of Khandaq, etc, etc, then you can look at Ghadir and the revelation of 5:3 in context. If you look at the totality of the evidence, rather than just picking apart certain hadith or certain isnad, you will find the truth. If you want to look at one event in isolation and not consider what came before it or after it, you will never get to the truth. 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

It still doesn't prove that. Prophet said do I have more authority over you, the companions said yes, then the prophet said whoever I am beloved friend, ali is his beloved friend, o Allah befriend those who befriend ali and hate those who hate ali. Sit perfectly with the context. Even if we consider the meaning of mawla here is master, it still doesn't prove that ali is the successor. The reason is simple. And is it is completely vague. It is because none of the companions ever understood as his appointment. They were the ones who 'usurped' the right of ali and made abu bakr their caliph. According to some shi'is the companions forgot the ghadeer event and made abu bakr the caliphwhich is complete nonsense. They forget that the companions were the ones who narrated the hadith in the first place. There can be only be two scenarios: 

 

How can it not prove when the context have already shown that it talks about authority. What benefit does it bring to the Prophet talking about his autority over others when everyone knows it already. What make absolute sense is that he talked about the authority is because he was going to connect it with same word rooting of mawla to show that Ali (عليه السلام) also have same authority over yourselves.

As for wordings "Allah befriend those who befriend ali and hate those who hate ali." This is true because here wali (not mawla or awla) is referred to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as WaliAllah.

Quote

Even if we consider the meaning of mawla here is master, it still doesn't prove that ali is the successor.

It does. Because the context of the event is talking about Authority.

Quote

 It is because none of the companions ever understood as his appointment. They were the ones who 'usurped' the right of ali and made abu bakr their caliph. According to some shi'is the companions forgot the ghadeer event and made abu bakr the caliphwhich is complete nonsense. They forget that the companions were the ones who narrated the hadith in the first place. There can be only be two scenarios: 

1) they never understood it as a appointment.

2) they did understood it as a appointment. 

The second one is totally illogical. Because when you usurped someone's right of rulership you don't go around propagating that he was actually a successor.

They did understood his appointment nor did they forgot it (but later some of them did) but they reject it or concealed it. It is simple as that. This is something that your mind can not compherend because your narrations are full of praise of sahabah. 

It is the most illogical thing to think that the companions did not understood the appointment when everyone of them were concern about if Prophet is going to leave a leader after him.

If the companions did not understood it then you will not found Umar Congratulations Imam Ali (عليه السلام) of this event. Saying:

Umar met him (‘Alī) after that and said: Congratulations to you O son of Abū Ṭālib. Today you have become the mawla of every male and female believer.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

Here is another hadith from Bukhari:

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَامِرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا فُلَيْحٌ، عَنْ هِلاَلِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ أَبِي عَمْرَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ مَا مِنْ مُؤْمِنٍ إِلاَّ وَأَنَا أَوْلَى بِهِ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ اقْرَءُوا إِنْ شِئْتُمْ ‏{‏النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ‏}‏ فَأَيُّمَا مُؤْمِنٍ مَاتَ وَتَرَكَ مَالاً فَلْيَرِثْهُ عَصَبَتُهُ مَنْ كَانُوا، وَمَنْ تَرَكَ دَيْنًا أَوْ ضَيَاعًا فَلْيَأْتِنِي فَأَنَا مَوْلاَهُ

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I am closer to the believers than their selves in this world and in the Hereafter, and if you like, you can read Allah's Statement: "The Prophet (ﷺ) is closer to the believers than their own selves." (33.6) So, if a true believer dies and leaves behind some property, it will be for his inheritors (from the father's side), and if he leaves behind some debt to be paid or needy offspring, then they should come to me as I am the guardian of the deceased."

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2399

[Cool]

Its all depend on you @sunni muslim, how you understand the word "mowla". We only need to prove to you the correct meaning of "mowla" in hadith e ghadir. 

Here is the opinion of experts of Arabic language:

قال الفرّاء: الوليّ والمولى واحدٌ في كلام العرب. 

قال أبو منصور: ومن هذا قول رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) (أيّما امرأة نكحتْ بغير إذن مولاها) ورواه بعضهم: (بغير إذن وليّها) لانها بمعنى واحد

قال ابو الهيثم: المولى على ستة أوجه: وذكر منها: المولى الولي الذي يلي عليك أمرك

وقال ابن سلام عن يونس: قول سيدنا رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. أي: مَنْ كنت وليّه فعلي وليه.

قال الزجاج: والولاية التي بمنزلة الامارة مكسورة.

قال: والوليّ: ولي اليتيم الذي يلي أمره ويقوم بكفايته. وولي المرأة: الذي يلي عقد النكاح عليها ولا يدعها تستبد بعقد النكاح دونه

وقال ابن منظور: وليّ: في أسماء الله تعالى: الوليّ هو الناصر، وقيل: المتولي لامور العالم والخلائق القائم بها. ومن أسمائه عزّوجل: الوالي: وهو مالك الأشياء جميعها المتصرف فيها.

[sunni muslim]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Authentic in terms of what? Prophet never mentioned Ali as his caliph? Or the event "dulasheera" itself is not authentic & doubtful?

Dawat ul asheera is authentic. But shia saying that prophet appointed ali at that time is based on weak and fabricated. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

What do you say about Quran? Is it authentic or not? 

Brother, what you will do is to keep twisting the meaning of clear words like our brothers of Ahlul Sunnah do with the word "مولاه".

I'm saying that even if you take mawla as master it still doesn't prove that ali was appointed there. The reason was simple. The companions never understood that way. Read my earlier post and try answer my arguement. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

For you, isn't it sufficient to neutrally  ponder over the verses:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

5:67)

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

5:3

Both of these verses did not revealed at the time of ghadeer. There is no authentic narrations which states that. Rather the ikmal verse was recealed at arafat, atleast 7 days before ghadeer. 

[sunni muslim]

51 minutes ago, Cool said:

Brother, this meaning of mowla doesn't fit here. According to your own books, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was not anyone's "friend":

لَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ خَلِيلاً وَلَكِنَّهُ أَخِي وَصَاحِبِي وَقَدِ اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ صَاحِبَكُمْ خَلِيلاً ‏"‏ ‏.‏

If I were to choose a bosom friend I would have definitely chosen Abu Bakr as my bosom friend, but he is my brother and my companion and Allah, the Exalted and Gliorious. has taken your brother and companion (meaning Prophet himself) as a friend.

So who is Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for you? A friend or a Wali whom you need to obey?

The wording here is khaleel which is in a specific sense that God take prophet and ibrahim as his khalil. If the prophet had taken anyone as khalil in that particular sense it would be abu bakr. 

[sunni muslim]

49 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The argument rests on three premises

1) Imams / Caliphs (i.e. leaders for the entirety of the Ummah) are appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not chosen by the people.

The proof of this is in Holy Quran in at least two places, that I know of. The appointment of Talut as a 'malik' (King with authority) for Bani Israel and the appointment of Prophet Ibrahim as an Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) after he had been chose as a Prophet. 

2) Imams are chosen to guide the people in the absence of a Prophet (Nabi or Rasoul) and they have the same authority and function as a Prophet. 

There are many instances of this in Quran (Haron being appointed by Musa when he went to Mt. Sinai) as well as in Islamic history. 

All of this is completely irrelevant. I didn't ask you to prove who appoint the successor. My question is how do you think ghadeer is a clear cut indication of appointment. 

 

51 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Ghadir needs to be looked at in the context of all the other proofs that came before it including manzila, ayat of wilayat, mubahilat, battle of Khandaq, etc, etc, then you can look at Ghadir and the revelation of 5:3 in context. If you look at the totality of the evidence, rather than just picking apart certain hadith or certain isnad, you will find the truth. If you want to look at one event in isolation and not consider what came before it or after it, you will never get to the truth. 

Well even if we look at totality of evidence it still doesn't prove that ali is appointed. Mubahila and battle of khandaq doesn't talk anything about caliphate. And there is no sahih hadith which says that 5:3 revealed at ghadeer. 

 

51 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

How can it not prove when the context have already shown that it talks about authority. What benefit does it bring to the Prophet talking about his autority over others when everyone knows it already. What make absolute sense is that he talked about the authority is because he was going to connect it with same word rooting of mawla to show that Ali (عليه السلام) also have same authority over yourselves.

It doesn't. All does it prove that prophet first use his authority make a thing very serious. When the prophet sent ali at yemen. Ali (رضي الله عنه) entered into a slave girl ( which is permissable) this angered many of the sahaba and they complained at makkah. The prophet right then and there corrected them and said whoever I am mawla ali is his mawla. Since the prophet knew he was going to pass away and at the end of his life his companions became angry at ali. He made a sermon about taking care of ahlul bayt and taking ali as his beloved friend. This is similar to a king whose associates argued with one of his cousins. The king stood up, said am I not your king, they said yes, he said whoever I am beloved friend so and so is his beloved friend. That's it. As simple as that. Had the prophet wanted to make him as his successor he would simply say ali is my successor and your ruler after me. 

 

59 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

As for wordings "Allah befriend those who befriend ali and hate those who hate ali." This is true because here wali (not mawla or awla) is referred to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as WaliAllah, like how Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was WaliAllah.

Absolutely false. The wording clearly shows what that narration means. 

 

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

It does. Because the context of the event is talking about Authority

It doesn't it is absolutely vague. And I will show how. 

 

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

They did understood his appointment nor did they forgot it (but later some of them did) but they reject it or concealed it. It is simple as that. This is something that your mind can not compherend because your narrations are full of praise of sahabah. 

They didn't understand anything about his khilafah. And regarding the allegation that they concealed it is absolutely ridiculous. They were the ones who narrated it in the first place, and they were the ones who didn't supported ali according to you. It is like saying that a king appointed his son as his successor in front of all his associates, viziers etc, but after the death of that king his associates chose a man with a not so powerful tribe as the next king, but those associates also transmitted heavily the event of the king appointing his son to the normal public. This is obviously a ludicrous scenario. Usurpers don't go and spread the proofs of the appointment of the one they usurped the right to common public. Saad bin abi waqqas was one of them who transmitted this hadith. And he would defend Ali by using this hadith. And guess what he never supportes ali at the time of abu bakr. Heck, when umar appointed six men after his death, sad bin abi waqas was one of those and he didn't vote for ali, rather he voted for abdur rahman bin auf. If the companions who were born arabs never understood this as appointment, then ahlus sunnah are not obliged to believe that this hadith means appointment. As simple as that. 

 

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

the companions did not understood it then you will not found Umar Congratulations Imam Ali (عليه السلام) of this event. Saying:

Umar met him (‘Alī) after that and said: Congratulations to you O son of Abū Ṭālib. Today you have become the mawla of every male and female believer

Weak hadith. 

[Abu Nur]

Quote

It doesn't. All does it prove that prophet first use his authority make a thing very serious.

It does. The problem with this mentality is that whatever prophet says itself is already very serious. So it is nonsensical to inteprate that he demostrate his seriousness. When all the Prophet sayings and his prophethood is very serious itself. What prophet demostrate himself is the authority he have over all the belivers. Then he use it as the context to Imam Ali authority. 

Quote

When the prophet sent ali at yemen. Ali (رضي الله عنه) entered into a slave girl ( which is permissable) this angered many of the sahaba and they complained at makkah. The prophet right then and there corrected them and said whoever I am mawla ali is his mawla. Since the prophet knew he was going to pass away and at the end of his life his companions became angry at ali. He made a sermon about taking care of ahlul bayt and taking ali as his beloved friend. This is similar to a king whose associates argued with one of his cousins. The king stood up, said am I not your king, they said yes, he said whoever I am beloved friend so and so is his beloved friend. That's it. As simple as that. Had the prophet wanted to make him as his successor he would simply say ali is my successor and your ruler after me. 

This common Sunni story have been refuted many times in detail by Brother @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi. 

Quote

And regarding the allegation that they concealed it is absolutely ridiculous.

Some of them clearly concleded it:

Sa’īd b. Jubayr says:

I heard the ḥādīth Man Kunto Mawla Fa ‘Alīyun Mawla from Ibn ‘Abbās, but I concealed it. Faḍā’il al-Ṣāḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 703.

Quote

Usurpers don't go and spread the proofs of the appointment of the one they usurped the right to common public. Saad bin abi waqqas was one of them who transmitted this hadith. And he would defend Ali by using this hadith. And guess what he never supportes ali at the time of abu bakr. Heck, when umar appointed six men after his death, sad bin abi waqas was one of those and he didn't vote for ali, rather he voted for abdur rahman bin auf. If the companions who were born arabs never understood this as appointment, then ahlus sunnah are not obliged to believe that this hadith means appointment. As simple as that. 

You have this illusion of thinking if things are just as black and white. Well it is not:

When Imam 'Ali (a) was asked about people who did not pledge their allegiance to him, did not help him and did not go to battles with him, he replied: "these are people who spoiled the right path and did not promote the wrong path either".

And this includes Saad bin abi waqqas. This is hard for you to accept because it does not go along with your narrative of Sahaba and their adaale.

Quote

Weak hadith. 

 

Can you show me that  Aḥmad b. Ḥanbal used a weak hadith in this matter?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Nur

[sunni muslim]

2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

This common Sunni story have been refuted many times in detail by Brother @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi. 

Quote the refutations here. 

 

2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Some of them clearly concleded it:

Sa’īd b. Jubayr says:

I heard the ḥādīth Man Kunto Mawla Fa ‘Alīyun Mawla from Ibn ‘Abbās, but I concealed it. Faḍā’il al-Ṣāḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 703.

Provide the chain and arabic quote. 

 

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You have this illusion of thinking if things are just as black and white. Well it is not:

When Imam 'Ali (a) was asked about people who did not pledge their allegiance to him, did not help him and did not go to battles with him, he replied: "these are people who spoiled the right path and did not promote the wrong path either".

And this includes Saad bin abi waqqas. This is hard for you to accept because it does not go along with your narrative of Sahaba and their adaale.

Absolute nonsense. The narrative you are presenting that the companions understood it but rejectedit and also go out and transmit it publically is absolutely ridiculous. Had they understood it they would have conceal it which they didn't. The ghadeer incident was narrated by 120 + companions and majority of them except ammar, abu zarr and they gave their bayah to abu bakr, umar and usman. And regarding the narration of ali, that doesn't explain this issue logically and doesn't make any sense. All it says that they didn't chose the wrong path, according to you they did chose the wrong path, not giving bayah to ali and giving bayah to abu bakr umar and usman is itself a wrong path to you. So sorry sir, this narration doesn't help you in any other case. 

[Abu Nur]

17 minutes ago, sunni muslim said:

Quote the refutations here. 

 

It is a long thread and I need to find it first Insa'Allah.

Quote

Provide the chain and arabic quote.

Find it yourself: Faḍā’il al-Ṣāḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 703

Quote

Absolute nonsense. The narrative you are presenting that the companions understood it but rejectedit and also go out and transmit it publically is absolutely ridiculous. Had they understood it they would have conceal it which they didn't. The ghadeer incident was narrated by 120 + companions and majority of them except ammar, abu zarr and they gave their bayah to abu bakr, umar and usman.

 

You are confused here. What I argue is that they clearly understood the meaning but some of them reject it. It dosen't matter do they narrate it or conclead it.

Quote

And regarding the narration of ali, that doesn't explain this issue logically and doesn't make any sense. All it says that they didn't chose the wrong path, according to you they did chose the wrong path, not giving bayah to ali and giving bayah to abu bakr umar and usman is itself a wrong path to you. So sorry sir, this narration doesn't help you in any other case. 

Read it very carefully:

These are people who "spoiled the right path"

[Cool]

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Even if we consider the meaning of mawla here is master, it still doesn't prove that ali is the successor. The reason is simple. And is it is completely vague. It is because none of the companions ever understood as his appointment.

Don't say none. Because history does have recorded some wordings of people congratulating Ali (عليه السلام) in these words:

فلقيه عمر بعد ذلك فقال له : هنيئا يا بن أبي طالب أصبحت وأمسيت مولى كل مؤمن ومؤمنة 

 

فَقَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ بَخٍ بَخٍ لَكَ يَا ابْنَ أَبِي طَالِبٍ أَصْبَحْتَ مَوْلايَ وَمَوْلَى كُلِّ مُسْلِمٍ

So was Umar congratulating Ali (عليه السلام) for becoming friend of every believer?

Majority of Companions doesn't even considered Ali (عليه السلام) as their friend. That's why we have seen the tragedy of Fadak, that's why we have seen the battle of Jamal, Nehrwaan & Siffin. Those who fought with him knows the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that Ali (عليه السلام) is the "Mowla" of every believer. 

So understanding Ali (عليه السلام) as their guardian, leader, master is not expected from them either. 

So if you consider the meaning of "Mowla" as master, you automatically lose the debate. Master is the one who rule, master is the one who command, master is the one who is to be obeyed. Hence by accepting him as master, you accept him as "ulil amr". Case closed brother.

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

The wording here is khaleel which is in a specific sense that God take prophet and ibrahim as his khalil. If the prophet had taken anyone as khalil in that particular sense it would be abu bakr.

You have translated "mowla" as friend. So I need to mention you that their is another Arabic word for friend i.e khalil. Anyway, the next hadith of Bukhari used the word "mowla" and there it has its true meaning. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Cool

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

It still doesn't prove that. Prophet said do I have more authority over you, the companions said yes, then the prophet said whoever I am beloved friend, ali is his beloved friend, o Allah befriend those who befriend ali and hate those who hate ali. Sit perfectly with the context. Even if we consider the meaning of mawla here is master, it still doesn't prove that ali is the successor. The reason is simple. And is it is completely vague. It is because none of the companions ever understood as his appointment. 

1.       Meaning of Mawla as mentioned in hadith Ghadeer:

Meaning of Mawla is Master and Leader. The same word is used for the prophet saw and Imam Ali as in hadith Ghadeer.

…Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his Mawla, ‘Ali is his Mawla. O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

Meaning of Mawla:

As per the above hadith the prophet is Mawla of believers and the same is Ali Mawla of the believers. First we should look the prophet has what characteristics being Mawla of believers in order to derive its real meaning for the Imam Ali?

The Prophet is Mawla of believers;

First I make this clear that he prophet is the seal of the prophets and there is no prophet after him.

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33:21)

But he has declared himself Mawla  of the believers, so that we should find specific characteristics attributed to him in relation to the believers

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌ ٣١}

: Say: "If ye do love Allah follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ {٣٢}

003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

٢٠         يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ

٢٤_٥٤   قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٤٧_٣٣   ۞ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَٰلَكُمْ

 

008:020 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear [him].

024:054 Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn your backs, [you should know that] he is only responsible for his burden and you are responsible for your own burden, and if you obey him, you will be guided, and the Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

047:033 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not render your works void.

 ٣_١٣٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

 ٥_٩٢     وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

003:132 and obey Allah and the Messenger so that you may be granted [His] mercy.

005:092 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and beware; but if you turn your backs, then know that Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

٦٤_١٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

064:012 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تُقَدِّمُوا۟ بَيْنَ يَدَىِ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦ ۖ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌۭ

049:001 O you who have faith! Do not venture ahead of Allah and His Messenger, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.

Similarly for imam Ali being Mawla:

“Obey Allah and messenger” / (who is also mawla). So obeying the Mawla is mandatory.

Thus confirms that the meaning of Mawala as given in Ghadeer narration is leader who is to be followed/Obeyed, like for the prophet who is also Mawla of believers.  Thus confirming that Imam Ali is Mawla of believers and he is the leader after the prophet and he should be obeyed with the same authority as that of the prophet on believers.

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله

لنَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ

The Prophet has more authority over the believers than themselves.  (33:36)

Thus it confirms that Mawla has more authority over believers than themselves. This is the real meaning of Mawla who is Leader after the prophet Muhammad saw. And Imam Ali is Mawla (Leader) of believers.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Muslim2010

[sunni muslim]

22 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Find it yourself: Faḍā’il al-Ṣāḥāba, vol. 2, pg. 703

It is you who have quoted the hadith. You have to provide the chain. And next is my job. 

 

23 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You are confused here. What I argue is that they clearly understood the meaning but some of them reject it. It dosen't matter do they narrate it or conclead it.

Nay, not some of them, almost everyone of one them. And it does matter that they narrated it. If they had understood it they would not go out and make them look like usurpers. 

 

26 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

These are people who "spoiled the right path"

Its you who didn't understood it. If the companions did understood it and despite that gave bayah to abu bakr then they are in the wrong path according to you. 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, sunni muslim said:

The ghadeer incident was narrated by 120 + companions

How many of them were in battle of Jamal, in the Army of Aisha? 

Perhaps, time has veiled their memories & they came out to fight with their "mowla".  Or was it the fact that a majority of companions have disliked the chosen one of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in Chapter 47

ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَرِهُوا مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالَهُمْ

47:9

ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لِلَّذِينَ كَرِهُوا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ سَنُطِيعُكُمْ فِي بَعْضِ الْأَمْرِ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِسْرَارَهُمْ

47:26 

ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمُ اتَّبَعُوا مَا أَسْخَطَ اللَّهَ وَكَرِهُوا رِضْوَانَهُ فَأَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالَهُمْ

47:28

 

 

[sunni muslim]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Don't say none. Because history does have recorded some wordings of people congratulating Ali (عليه السلام) in these words:

فلقيه عمر بعد ذلك فقال له : هنيئا يا بن أبي طالب أصبحت وأمسيت مولى كل مؤمن ومؤمنة 

 

فَقَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ بَخٍ بَخٍ لَكَ يَا ابْنَ أَبِي طَالِبٍ أَصْبَحْتَ مَوْلايَ وَمَوْلَى كُلِّ مُسْلِمٍ

So was Umar congratulating Ali (عليه السلام) for becoming friend of every believer?

Already answered. The hadith is weak. Even if we accept it as authentic even then it is against you. It is also narrated by history that at the time of khilafah of umar, someone asked him why he put such importance to ali, he said because ali is my mawla. If we believe your interpretation that it means leader of islamic community, then the scenario would become utterly nonsensical. It is like saying that in front of a king someone insulted his close friend, and the king rebuked that man by saying, how can you insult him, he is my king. This is absolutely a ludicrous scenario. Kings Don't call others their king especially in front of a random stranger. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Majority of Companions doesn't even considered Ali (عليه السلام) as their friend. That's why we have seen the tragedy of Fadak, that's why we have seen the battle of Jamal, Nehrwaan & Siffin. Those who fought with him knows the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that Ali (عليه السلام) is the "Mowla" of every believer

They did consider him as his friend. Majority of muhajireen wal ansar didn't participated in fighting. One can count at fingers how many companions were involved in jamal and siffin. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

So if you consider the meaning of "Mowla" as master, you automatically lose the debate. Master is the one who rule, master is the one who command, master is the one who is to be obeyed. Hence by accepting him as master, you accept him as "ulil amr". Case closed brother.

No sir. I didn't lose the debate. Even if we consider it as master it still doesn't explain the fact that it is vague even according topmost shia scholars. It is so vague that none of the companions who were born arabs didn't understood the  'clear unambigious' proof and unknowingly transmitted it among the masses like it is some kind of a virtue while in actuality it was supposed to be his appointment. The reason they never understood is that no one appoint their successor using such a vague wording. Had the prophet used the clear cut simple wording like 'ali is my successor' then we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a hadith like ' ali is my successor' and arguing that it does not mean appointment. It would be impossible to interpret in any other way. And you wouldn't be even need to write lengthy articles, recording hours of video to prove that. People make their successor simply by saying so and so is my successor. Prophet using such a vague wording that his own companions never understood it is also ridiculous and an attack towards him. 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

You have translated "mowla" as friend. So I need to mention you that their is another Arabic word for friend i.e khalil. Anyway, the next hadith of Bukhari used the word "mowla" and there it has its true meaning. 

You didn't understand the point. In sahib muslim version and many other turuq of this hadith. Prophet said Allah made me and ibrahim as his khaleel, and i don't need any khaleel but if was to make one it would be abi bakr. This is what I was talking about. Prophet was talking about a special rank of khaleel which noone has in this ummah, and no one in this creation except ibrahim and prophet. 

[sunni muslim]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

1.       Meaning of Mawla as mentioned in hadith Ghadeer:

Meaning of Mawla is Master and Leader. The same word is used for the prophet saw and Imam Ali as in hadith Ghadeer.

…Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his Mawla, ‘Ali is his Mawla. O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

Meaning of Mawla:

As per the above hadith the prophet is Mawla of believers and the same is Ali Mawla of the believers. First we should look the prophet has what characteristics being Mawla of believers in order to derive its real meaning for the Imam Ali?

The Prophet is Mawla of believers;

First I make this clear that he prophet is the seal of the prophets and there is no prophet after him.

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33:21)

But he has declared himself Mawla  of the believers, so that we should find specific characteristics attributed to him in relation to the believers

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌ ٣١}

: Say: "If ye do love Allah follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ {٣٢}

003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

٢٠         يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ

٢٤_٥٤   قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٤٧_٣٣   ۞ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَٰلَكُمْ

 

008:020 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear [him].

024:054 Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn your backs, [you should know that] he is only responsible for his burden and you are responsible for your own burden, and if you obey him, you will be guided, and the Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

047:033 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not render your works void.

 ٣_١٣٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

 ٥_٩٢     وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

003:132 and obey Allah and the Messenger so that you may be granted [His] mercy.

005:092 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and beware; but if you turn your backs, then know that Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

٦٤_١٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

064:012 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تُقَدِّمُوا۟ بَيْنَ يَدَىِ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦ ۖ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌۭ

049:001 O you who have faith! Do not venture ahead of Allah and His Messenger, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.

Similarly for imam Ali being Mawla:

“Obey Allah and messenger” / (who is also mawla). So obeying the Mawla is mandatory.

Thus confirms that the meaning of Mawala as given in Ghadeer narration is leader who is to be followed/Obeyed, like for the prophet who is also Mawla of believers.  Thus confirming that Imam Ali is Mawla of believers and he is the leader after the prophet and he should be obeyed with the same authority as that of the prophet on believers.

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله

لنَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ

The Prophet has more authority over the believers than themselves.  (33:36)

Thus it confirms that Mawla has more authority over believers than themselves. This is the real meaning of Mawla who is Leader after the prophet Muhammad saw. And Imam Ali is Mawla (Leader) of believers.

Read my earlier post as to why this hadith is vague. 

[Muslim2010]

2 hours ago, sunni muslim said:

Read my earlier post as to why this hadith is vague. 

Which hadith you are mentioning? Hadith Ghadeer is a narrated by many chains and all of the companions present at ghadeer understood it and greeted Imam Ali for being Mawla of believers.

Do you really understand that the prophet is Mawla of believers and he has more right over the believers? Do you deny the relevant verse of quran? (The Prophet has more authority over the believers than themselves.  (33:36))

The prophet has declared himself Mawla  of the believers, so that we should find specific characteristics attributed to him in relation to the believers:

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌ ٣١}

: Say: "If ye do love Allah follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ {٣٢}

003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

٢٠         يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ

٢٤_٥٤   قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٤٧_٣٣   ۞ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَٰلَكُمْ

008:020 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear [him].

024:054 Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn your backs, [you should know that] he is only responsible for his burden and you are responsible for your own burden, and if you obey him, you will be guided, and the Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

047:033 O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not render your works void.

 ٣_١٣٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

 ٥_٩٢     وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

003:132 and obey Allah and the Messenger so that you may be granted [His] mercy.

005:092 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and beware; but if you turn your backs, then know that Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

٦٤_١٢   وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

064:012 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to communicate in clear terms.

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تُقَدِّمُوا۟ بَيْنَ يَدَىِ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦ ۖ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌۭ

049:001 O you who have faith! Do not venture ahead of Allah and His Messenger, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.

The verses of quran are quite clear since the prophet is a Mawla of believers (by hadith) he must be obeyed.

Do you deny that the above verses of quran?

wasalam

Edited August 7, 2022 by Muslim2010