Ummul Momineen Ayesha and Mautbar Shia Ahadith

[Cool]

8 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Informative.

Can you mention reference? Is it shia source?

It was the famous incident of fadak when Abu Bakr turned down the claim of Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام). This is recorded in both Sunni & Shia Sources. 

http://kingoflinks.net/AhlAlBait/10Hrbhom/16Other.htm

 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 8/4/2022 at 8:15 PM, The Alchemist said:

According to SaheeH sunni ahadith, Ummul Momineen Ayesha repented later on for what she did (Battle of Camel).

Ref:

-> Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaibah, h # 38927

Grading:

SaheeH according Nasirudeen Albani

-> Silsilah Sahiha h #474

What does shia authentic ahadith collection say about this?

 

Besides, it is widely believed in shia community that she was killed by Muawiya. However, authentic sunni ahadith say she died a natural death. What does shia authentic ahadith say about this?

If Bibi Ayesha repented after battle of camel, she did it for face saving because in latter reports regarding her it is mentioned that it was Bibi Ayesha on whose order arrows were shot at the funeral of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and because of her Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) could not be buried near Prophet's grave.

[The Alchemist]

17 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

If Bibi Ayesha repented after battle of camel, she did it for face saving because in latter reports regarding her it is mentioned that it was Bibi Ayesha on whose order arrows were shot at the funeral of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and because of her Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) could not be buried near Prophet's grave.

Brother, that is your view. Purpose of this thread is to discuss what is view of Aima (عليه السلام) about her.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

1 hour ago, The Alchemist said:

Brother, that is your view. Purpose of this thread is to discuss what is view of Aima (عليه السلام) about her.

Brother, I read that Hazrat Ayesha obstructed imam Hasan to be buried near Prophet (PBUHHP). So, what kind of repentance was that which she did after Jamal? Did she meant by that repentance that she will not go against Ahlebait or did she just prenteded it as repentance. To me incident of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) proves latter was true. 

This is not my view it's a historical fact. And, if you are searching for Aaima's views regarding her, it wouldn't be much different then what Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) felt during funeral of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام).

Edited August 6, 2022 by Borntowitnesstruth

[The Alchemist]

6 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Brother, I read that Hazrat Ayesha obstructed imam Hasan to be buried near Prophet (PBUHHP). So, what kind of repentance was that which she did after Jamal? Did she meant by that repentance that she will not go against Ahlebait or did she just prenteded it as repentance. To my incident of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) proves latter was true. 

This is not my view it's a historical fact.

Did any of Aima (عليه السلام) talk about this incident (with authentic sanad)? Is that authentically proven?

[Borntowitnesstruth]

4 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Did any of Aima (عليه السلام) talk about this incident (with authentic sanad)? Is that authentically proven?

I read that Imam Muhammad al Baqir (عليه السلام) narrated this event. Further more, it is proved both in Shia and Sunni books that this happened as said by al-islam.org.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-it-true-that-aisha-did-not-allow-imam-hassan-as-to-be-buried-next-to-the-prophets-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-grave

[Cool]

26 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Did any of Aima (عليه السلام) talk about this incident (with authentic sanad)? Is that authentically proven?

There are many incidents, do you know their history? Starting from the martyrdom of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who according to our ahadith books, was poisoned by two. 

I don't want to go in detail and neither willing to quote any hadith because of the sensitivity of issue.

[The Alchemist]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

There are many incidents, do you know their history? Starting from the martyrdom of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who according to our ahadith books, was poisoned by two. 

I don't want to go in detail and neither willing to quote any hadith because of the sensitivity of issue.

Brother, these reports are not mautbar.

Read this:

https://thaqalayn.blog/did-the-messenger-of-allah-die-a-natural-death/

 

[The Alchemist]

1 hour ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I read that Imam Muhammad al Baqir (عليه السلام) narrated this event. Further more, it is proved both in Shia and Sunni books that this happened as said by al-islam.org.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-it-true-that-aisha-did-not-allow-imam-hassan-as-to-be-buried-next-to-the-prophets-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-grave

Thanks for sharing this brother. It's a knowledgeable post.

Zaid Alsalami is talking about shia and sunni books of history. Brother, history books of shia and sunni are also filled with stuff which neither a shia nor a sunni would ever agree. He should have mentioned specific references and better talked about their authenticity.

A single authentic hadith from any of the Aima (عليه السلام) would make the issue very clear.

[Ani]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

There are many incidents, do you know their history? Starting from the martyrdom of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who according to our ahadith books, was poisoned by two. 

I don't want to go in detail and neither willing to quote any hadith because of the sensitivity of issue.

I have heard this a lot of time but no one really wants to go further on this topic...i have heard certain scholars mentioning this as well.

Could you please elaborate and share your knowledge.

We shouldn't be scared to talk about anything...

[The Alchemist]

6 hours ago, Ani said:

I have heard this a lot of time but no one really wants to go further on this topic...i have heard certain scholars mentioning this as well.

Could you please elaborate and share your knowledge.

We shouldn't be scared to talk about anything...

Read this blog. It contains almost all narrations on the issue.

https://thaqalayn.blog/did-the-messenger-of-allah-die-a-natural-death/

[Ani]

So is this the only unreliable source about which many scholars talk about.. and many people give references only based on this explanation... ?? 

I wouldn't put it past Abu Bakr and Umar to plot something like this in their eagerness to come to power but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

 

- And Ali b. Ibrahim said these verses were revealed when one day the Holy Prophet ﷺ was at Hafsa’s place and Mariya the Copt was in his service. During that time Hafsa went out on some errand and the Prophet had relations with Mariya. When Hafsa came to know about this, she was very angry and she said: O Messenger of Allah ﷺ, you had relations with a slave girl on my bed, and on the day of my turn?” The Prophet was embarrassed at this and he said, “Cool down, I will not have relations with Mariya again. I have made her unlawful for myself.” But he told her that she must keep this matter concealed otherwise the divine curse will be upon her and the anger of the angels and the ridicule of all people. Hafsa said that she will maintain a secret. But what is the secret? The Prophet said: “It is that Abu Bakr will become the Caliph after me through injustice and oppression and after him, your father will become the Caliph.” Hafsa asked him, “Who has told you this?” The Holy Prophet ﷺ said that “the Almighty Allah has informed me about it.” Hafsa revealed it to Ayesha the same day and she mentioned it to her father. Abu Bakr came to Umar and said that “Ayesha has quoted Hafsa thus, but I don’t trust her statement, you ask Hafsa directly if this is true?” Umar came to Hafsa, “Is it true what Ayesha mentioned on your authority?” Initially Hafsa denied having said any such thing to Ayesha. Umar said, “Don’t conceal this from us if it is true, so that we may plan about it beforehand.” Hafsa said, “Yes, the Holy Prophet ﷺ mentioned thus.” Then the two men and their daughters plotted to poison the Prophet. -

[Cool]

50 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Brother, these reports are not mautbar.

Thanks for sharing this article. I don't know whether you have seen it or not!! The article do mention some sahih & mu'tabar chains.

And while the writer of this articles seems not sure of the opinion of classical shia scholars, here is what I found:

ما قاله الشيخ الطوسي ( رحمه الله ) : قبض ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) مسموماً يوم الاثنين لليلتين بقيتا من الهجرة سنة عشر

وقال الشيخ المفيد : قبض بالمدينة مسموماً

وراجع ما قاله العلامة الحلي ( رحمه الله ) حول ذلك أيضاً

But my point of view is that when we need to reach to the truth, we need to investigate all the reports whether in Sunni hadith or history books or in Shia. And there is much more material in the sunni texts than in shi'i books. 

I wish the author of thaqalayn.blog should also have taken into consideration what is mentioned in Sunni books. Like the following article has discussed:

https://www.islam4u.com/ar/shobahat/رسول-الله-صلى-الله-عليه-وآله-الشهيد-المسموم

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Ani said:

Could you please elaborate and share your knowledge.

We shouldn't be scared to talk about anything..

I am not scared to talk rather I am purposely not going into details. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Thanks for sharing this brother. It's a knowledgeable post.

Zaid Alsalami is talking about shia and sunni books of history. Brother, history books of shia and sunni are also filled with stuff which neither a shia nor a sunni would ever agree. He should have mentioned specific references and better talked about their authenticity.

A single authentic hadith from any of the Aima (عليه السلام) would make the issue very clear.

Well, brother, if two contradictory books agree on one subject, it cannot be far from truth. 

Besides that I would also like to tell you that a hadith is associated with Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (عليه السلام) wherein he narrated the event of funeral of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). 

Furthermore, even after said repentance of Hazrat Ayesha after jamal, it is narrated that when Hazrat Ayesha was told about the demise of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) she became happy. 

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/ayesha/objections-to-shia-criticisms.html

[The Alchemist]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Thanks for sharing this article. I don't know whether you have seen it or not!! The article do mention some sahih & mu'tabar chains.

And while the writer of this articles seems not sure of the opinion of classical shia scholars, here is what I found:

ما قاله الشيخ الطوسي ( رحمه الله ) : قبض ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) مسموماً يوم الاثنين لليلتين بقيتا من الهجرة سنة عشر

وقال الشيخ المفيد : قبض بالمدينة مسموماً

وراجع ما قاله العلامة الحلي ( رحمه الله ) حول ذلك أيضاً

But my point of view is that when we need to reach to the truth, we need to investigate all the reports whether in Sunni hadith or history books or in Shia. And there is much more material in the sunni texts than in shi'i books. 

I wish the author of thaqalayn.blog should also have taken into consideration what is mentioned in Sunni books. Like the following article has discussed:

https://www.islam4u.com/ar/shobahat/رسول-الله-صلى-الله-عليه-وآله-الشهيد-المسموم

Specifically, those narrations which speak about two wives of Prophet (SAWW) are weak in sanad.

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Specifically, those narrations which speak about two wives of Prophet (SAWW) are weak in sanad.

Yes, but it does not either make sense that the jews poisoned the Prophet (saws). Narrations indicates he was poisoned. We do not know by whom. And it is best to leave it that way because we could attribute a lie to persons when we don't have enough evidence to decide. 

I really don't think you are going find much any favor about these two in Shia literature. As for the khulafas we clearly have narrations ageinst them and their innovations. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Abu Nur

[The Alchemist]

7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

As for the khulafas we clearly have narrations ageinst them and their innovations. 

Please mention some authentic narrations on them too.

[Abu Nur]

This is Shia Sahih hadith on how those who fought Imam Ali (عليه السلام) became kafirs:

 

يَحْيَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُسْكَانَ عَنْ ضُرَيْسٍ قَالَ تَمَارَى النَّاسُ عِنْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ حَرْبُ عَلِيٍّ شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ قَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ حَرْبُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ عَلِيٍّ ع قَالَ فَسَمِعَهُمْ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع فَقَالَ مَا تَقُولُونَ فَقَالُوا أَصْلَحَكَ اللَّهُ تَمَارَيْنَا فِي حَرْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ فِي حَرْبِ عَلِيٍّ ع فَقَالَ بَعْضُنَا حَرْبُ عَلِيٍّ ع شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ قَالَ بَعْضُنَا حَرْبُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ عَلِيٍّ ع فَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع لَا بَلْ حَرْبُ عَلِيٍّ ع شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص فَقُلْتُ لَهُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ أَ حَرْبُ عَلِيٍّ ع شَرٌّ مِنْ حَرْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ نَعَمْ وَ سَأُخْبِرُكَ عَنْ ذَلِكَ إِنَّ حَرْبَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص لَمْ يُقِرُّوا بِالْإِسْلَامِ وَ إِنَّ حَرْبَ عَلِيٍّ ع أَقَرُّوا بِالْإِسْلَامِ ثُمَّ جَحَدُوهُ

From Durays said: ’The people were arguing before Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام). Some of them said that the people who fought `Alī (عليه السلام) were more evil than the people who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And some of them say that those who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were more evil than the people who fought `Alī (عليه السلام).’ He (Durays) said: Abū Ja`far(عليه السلام) heard them and he (عليه السلام) said: ‘What are you saying?’. So they said: ‘May Allāh keep you well, we are arguing about the people who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and about those who fought `Alī (عليه السلام)’. So some of us say the people who fought `Alī (عليه السلام) were more evil than those who fought the Messenger of Allāh (عليه السلام). And so of us say the people who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were more evil than those who fought `Alī (عليه السلام). So Abū Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: “No, rather those who fought `Alī (عليه السلام) were more evil.” So I said to him (عليه السلام): “May I be in your ransom, the people who fought `Alī (عليه السلام) were worse than those who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?” He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, I will inform you about that. Verily, those who fought the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not acknowledge Islām, and those who fought `Alī (عليه السلام) acknowledged Islām then they rejected it.”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulaynī, Al-Kāfī, ed. `Alī Akbar al-Ghaffārī, 8 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 3rd Edition, 1388 AH), vol. 8, pg. 252, hadeeth # 353

Grading:

1.     Al-Majlisī said this hadeeth is Ṣaḥīḥ (Authentic)
à Mir’āt Al-`Uqūl, 26 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 1410 AH), vol. 26, pg. 228

2.     `Āsif al-Muḥsinī said this ḥadīth has a Mu`tabar Sanad (Authentic Chain of Narrators)
à Mashra`ah Bihār al-Anwaar, (Beirut: Mu’assasah al-`Ārif lil-Matbū`āt, 2nd ed., 1426) vol. 2, pg. 56

3.     Ḥussayn al-Rāḍī said this ḥadīth has a Ṣaḥīḥ Sanad (Authentic Chain of Narrators)

----

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

4 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Please mention some authentic narrations on them too.

I give you one example of these two in the time of Prophet (saws) were hypocrise. This hadith talks about the Surah Nisa verse 108. Even Sunni Scholars refer this verse of those who were hypocrise.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الْحَسَنِ ع يَقُولُ فِي قَوْلِ اللَّهِ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى إِذْ يُبَيِّتُونَ ما لا يَرْضى‏ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ (النساء -: 108 -) قَالَ يَعْنِي فُلَاناً وَ فُلَاناً وَ أَبَا عُبَيْدَةَ بْنَ الْجَرَّاحِ

From Sulaymān al-Ja`farī said I heard Abā al-Ḥasan (عليه السلام) say about the words of Allāh (تبارك و تعالى), “When they plot by night of words which does not please Him” (Sūrah al-Nisā’: Verse 108) He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Meaning fulān (Abū Bakr), fulān (`Umar) and Abā `Ubaydah bin al-Jarrāḥ”
Source:

1.     Al-Kulaynī, Al-Kāfī, ed. `Alī Akbar al-Ghaffārī, 8 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 3rd Edition, 1388 AH), vol. 8, pg. 334, ḥadīth # 525

Grading:

1.     Al-Majlisī said this hadeeth is Ṣaḥīḥ (Authentic)
à Mir’āt Al-`Uqūl, 26 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 1410 AH), vol. 26, pg. 488

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

24 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

example of these two in the time of Prophet (saws) were hypocrise.

Yes, they are!! 

When طبيب who came to cure his wound came and said فإنك لن تعيش (you will not live), Umar immediately called Hudaifah bin Yaman (رضي الله عنه) and asked him:

هل قال الرسول اسمي بين المنافقين؟

(Did the Prophet say my name is among the hypocrites?)

Although this hadith which is mentioned in the Sunni books, mentioned that Hudaifah (رضي الله عنه). replied him in negative:

والله ما ذُكر اسمك عندي 

I remember a verse of al-Qiyamah, where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said:

بَلِ الْإِنْسَانُ عَلَىٰ نَفْسِهِ بَصِيرَةٌ

75:14] Nay! man is evidence against himself. 

He did have the بَصِيرَةٌ of himself that's why he called Hudaifah (رضي الله عنه) and asked him this question. Otherwise, he must remain like the "nafs al-mutma'innah" after listening to the news that he will not live. 

[Guest Guest Muharram]

في الكافي ج8 ص246 حديث رقم 343 حنان عن أبيه، عن أبي جعفر (ع) قال: قلت له: ما كان ولد يعقوب أنبياء؟ قال: لا ولكنهم كانوا أسباط أولاد الانبياء ولم يكن يفارقوا الدنيا إلا سعداء تابوا وتذكروا ما صنعوا وإن الشيخين فارقا الدنيا ولم يتوبا ولم يتذكرا ما صنعا بأمير المؤمنين (ع) فعليهما لعنة الله والملائكة والناس أجمعين.

This hadith (muwathaq or hasan in reliability) mentions that the Shaykhayn departed the Earth without tawbah (repentance) for what they did to Amir Al-Mu'mineen (عليه السلام), so the Imam (عليه السلام) says that the curse of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His Angels and all people is upon them.

Here are more hadiths from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) dealing with issues related to those personalities that are beloved by the other side:

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2013/10/sheikhayn-abu-bakr-umar-uthman-in-eyes.html?m=1

[Guest Bassam]

On 8/4/2022 at 3:20 PM, Abu Nur said:

Not hujjah upon us to believe such a thing. It is very hard to trust any repentance from such a personality who did so much evil toward Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and other believers. I really don't know how the Muslims she caused dead and agony is going to forgive her. 

Salam, there is no question that in life her actions caused much harm to the muslim umma, to this day. That said, and I relay this because I feel that we Muslims (Shia), who believe that there is no worldly power that could have denied Ali(عليه السلام) his place as the rightful successor to Mohamad ﷺ, must remember to tell our story than to deny theirs. Aisha (mother of believers as Allah refers to her in the Quran) must be respected. Not for her actions, her mistakes or the miscalculations she made, but for the respect and love we have for her husband Abu Qasim Rassoul-allah Mohamad ﷺ & we must follow the manners and conduct of his successor & brother Walli Allah Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام).

No matter the sins of humanity, from the first day of its existence to the final moments when we will all be judged, they will never be so great to to be greater than the Mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Only Allah knows her fait.

[Mohamad_ali]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:18 AM, layman said:

I am not sure that Hurr wanted Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) killed.  He was, yes on Yazid (la) side at the beginning.

He repented and changed before anyone get killed 

Whereas in Ayesha case, it was different situation. Killings did occurred in thousands during the battle of Jamal under her leadership.

How would repentance be effective in her case???

Can Saddam repent after he ordered to invade Iran and thousands got killed???

Wallahualam.

We can all repent no matter our actions, our sins combined will not come close to Allas Mercy. The reason we believe that Ali(عليه السلام) is the best after the prophet ﷺ is not because we think or believe or guess, its because allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mad it clear who he wants. Allah directs us, and when he tells us that he is the Judge, The Merciful, The Just then all we can do is ponder. But we will never know, so until that day we can guess, and its worse for us to guess wrong than it is to say that Allah is the best judge and only he knows.

Salam

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:15 AM, The Alchemist said:

According to SaheeH sunni ahadith, Ummul Momineen Ayesha repented later on for what she did (Battle of Camel).

Ref:

-> Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaibah, h # 38927

Grading:

SaheeH according Nasirudeen Albani

-> Silsilah Sahiha h #474

What does shia authentic ahadith collection say about this?

 

Besides, it is widely believed in shia community that she was killed by Muawiya. However, authentic sunni ahadith say she died a natural death. What does shia authentic ahadith say about this?

Is there repentance for getting 3,000 sahaba and tabaeen killed?

[SoRoUsH]

This narration may be of help: 

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ اَلْحَكَمِ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ بَكْرٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : فِي قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ آخَرُونَ مُرْجَوْنَ لِأَمْرِ اَللّٰهِ » قَالَ قَوْمٌ كَانُوا مُشْرِكِينَ فَقَتَلُوا مِثْلَ حَمْزَةَ وَ جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَشْبَاهَهُمَا مِنَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ ثُمَّ إِنَّهُمْ دَخَلُوا فِي اَلْإِسْلاَمِ فَوَحَّدُوا اَللَّهَ وَ تَرَكُوا اَلشِّرْكَ وَ لَمْ يَعْرِفُوا اَلْإِيمَانَ بِقُلُوبِهِمْ فَيَكُونُوا مِنَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَتَجِبَ لَهُمُ اَلْجَنَّةُ وَ لَمْ يَكُونُوا عَلَى جُحُودِهِمْ فَيَكْفُرُوا فَتَجِبَ لَهُمُ اَلنَّارُ فَهُمْ عَلَى تِلْكَ اَلْحَالِ «إِمّٰا يُعَذِّبُهُمْ وَ إِمّٰا يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ »

الکافي ج ۲، ص ۴۰۷

Kulayni has graded this narration as ضعیف کالموثق. The questionable person is موسی بن بکر.

Verse 9:106 has been interpreted in this narration. 

There's a group of people, who were Mushrikeen before and had killed many of the great Mu'mineen such as Hamza and Ja'far. 

Later, they entered Islam and left shirk behind. However, Iman didn't enter their hearts, and therefore, Paradise wasn't obligated for them. 

On the other hand, they were not Kuffar either, so the hellfire wasn't obligated for them. 

The affairs and the ultimate end of this group is for Allah to decide, مُرْجَوْنَ لِأَمْرِ اَللّٰهِ

 

This narration can be seen as a guide, to provide a middle-ground, and to keep us away from endless bickering. 

Just a thought!

Edited August 16, 2022 by SoRoUsH

[SoRoUsH]

Here's another helpful narration. It is graded موثق کالصحیح.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ بْنِ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَالَ: ذُكِرَ عِنْدَهُ سَالِمُ بْنُ أَبِي حَفْصَةَ وَ أَصْحَابُهُ فَقَالَ إِنَّهُمْ يُنْكِرُونَ أَنْ يَكُونَ مَنْ حَارَبَ عَلِيّاً عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ مُشْرِكِينَ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ فَإِنَّهُمْ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ كُفَّارٌ ثُمَّ قَالَ لِي إِنَّ اَلْكُفْرَ أَقْدَمُ مِنَ اَلشِّرْكِ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ كُفْرَ إِبْلِيسَ حِينَ قَالَ لَهُ اُسْجُدْ فَأَبَى أَنْ يَسْجُدَ وَ قَالَ اَلْكُفْرُ أَقْدَمُ مِنَ اَلشِّرْكِ فَمَنِ اِجْتَرَى عَلَى اَللَّهِ فَأَبَى اَلطَّاعَةَ وَ أَقَامَ عَلَى اَلْكَبَائِرِ فَهُوَ كَافِرٌ يَعْنِي مُسْتَخِفٌّ كَافِرٌ

الکافي ج ۲، ص ۳۸۴

In this narration, those who fought Ali (عليه السلام) are compared to Iblees, who committed Kufr by not prostrating, when Allah asked him to. 

A given criterion for Kufr is to remain or to continue to commit the Greater Sins (الکبائر); implying not caring for Allah's command.

If we do not know whether a person أَقَامَ عَلَى اَلْكَبَائِرِ (remained upon the Greater Sins), then we cannot be certain whether they remain Kafir or not. 

This is how I understand this narration. This narration, combined with the one before it, give us clear guidance on this and similar issues. 

[VoidVortex]

11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Is there repentance for getting 3,000 sahaba and tabaeen killed?

nothing is above God's forgiveness, but the question is will the person be given tawfeeq for repentance

[VoidVortex]

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

A given criterion for Kufr is to remain or to continue to commit the Greater Sins (الکبائر); implying not caring for Allah's command.

If we do not know whether a person أَقَامَ عَلَى اَلْكَبَائِرِ (remained upon the Greater Sins), then we cannot be certain whether they remain Kafir or not. 

Does this apply in all times. Is this the belief of the maraja. I mean there are a decent portion of muslims that engage in the major sins frequently especially lying, backbiting, zina, and especially disobedience to parents. They do these very frequently. Would the maraja' consider such a person kafir. The reason I say maraja' is because I'm wary of taking something like this directly from a hadith where ahadith can be misunderstood without the right context even if the hadith may seem black and white on the outside

[SoRoUsH]

18 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

Does this apply in all times. Is this the belief of the maraja. I mean there are a decent portion of muslims that engage in the major sins frequently especially lying, backbiting, zina, and especially disobedience to parents. They do these very frequently. Would the maraja' consider such a person kafir. The reason I say maraja' is because I'm wary of taking something like this directly from a hadith where ahadith can be misunderstood without the right context even if the hadith may seem black and white on the outside

I have read a narration about how discounting or leaving Salat is Kufr, whereas commiting Zina isn't. The reason given was that one could commit Zina because Shahwa (lust) can overpower them, whereas when one discounts prayers or leaves prayers, it's because they don't care about God's command. There's no overpowering Shahwa (شهوة) behind leaving prayers. I do not remember the grading of this narration.

It makes sense. If you know what is important and significant in our Deen and for God, and yet you willingly and without coercion of any sort, internal or external, leave it or not care for it, then clearly you're being ungrateful and openly and intentionally disobeying God. That's Kufr.

 

Needless to say, I am not a scholar. Follow your scholar, while you continuously read and study our fiqh and narrations.

Edited August 16, 2022 by SoRoUsH

[VoidVortex]

40 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

It makes sense. If you know what is important and significant in our Deen and for God, and yet you willingly and without coercion of any sort, internal or external, leave it or not care for it, then clearly you're being ungrateful and openly and intentionally disobeying God. That's Kufr.

I get what you mean. Even sodomy has been compared to kufr too

Quote

 

“Sodomy is a Greater Sin and carries punishment when a man mounts upon another man but does not penetrate. If he penetrates, it is kufr”.3

It means that one who considers sodomy legal is a Kafir, because to consider sodomy illegal is one of the requirements of faith. And one who disbelieves in any of the requirements of faith becomes a Kafir. However if anyone commits this act knowing that it is Haram is deserving of punishment which is similar to the one meted out to kuffar, and it is eternal. - greater sins

 

Quote

“I enquired regarding sodomy which is a Greater Sin from Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (‘a)”. The Imam replied:

“To press the sexual organ between the thighs in an illegal way”

I asked, “Who is the person who commits sodomy”.

Imam (‘a) replied;

“One who has disbelieved in what Allah has revealed to his Messenger (the Holy Qur’an).”4

 

however if I remember correctly there's a difference between acts of kufr and kufr itself. An act of kufr may not actually put a person outside the fold of Islam(thats what I saw a sheikh put on his insta story).

[SoRoUsH]

39 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

I get what you mean. Even sodomy has been compared to kufr too

however if I remember correctly there's a difference between acts of kufr and kufr itself. An act of kufr may not actually put a person outside the fold of Islam(thats what I saw a sheikh put on his insta story).

When one commits a sin, they're not believers (while they are commiting the sin.)

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ اِبْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ حَكِيمٍ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لِأَبِي اَلْحَسَنِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ اَلْكَبَائِرُ تُخْرِجُ مِنَ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَقَالَ نَعَمْ وَ مَا دُونَ اَلْكَبَائِرِ قَالَ رَسُولُ اَللَّهِ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ لاَ يَزْنِي اَلزَّانِي وَ هُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ وَ لاَ يَسْرِقُ اَلسَّارِقُ وَ هُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ

الکافي ج ۲، ص ۲۸۴

Not being a Mu'min does not imply one is a Kafir. When one commits a sin, such as Zina, during the act the Spirit of Faith (روح الایمان) leaves him, and when the spirit is not in one's heart, while the spirit has left the body, one is not a Mu'min. After the act, the spirit may return, Allah willing. 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ حَرِيزٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَالَ: وَ اَللَّهِ إِنَّ اَلْكُفْرَ لَأَقْدَمُ مِنَ اَلشِّرْكِ وَ أَخْبَثُ وَ أَعْظَمُ قَالَ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ كُفْرَ إِبْلِيسَ حِينَ قَالَ اَللَّهُ لَهُ اُسْجُدْ لآِدَمَ فَأَبَى أَنْ يَسْجُدَ فَالْكُفْرُ أَعْظَمُ مِنَ اَلشِّرْكِ فَمَنِ اِخْتَارَ عَلَى اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ أَبَى اَلطَّاعَةَ وَ أَقَامَ عَلَى اَلْكَبَائِرِ فَهُوَ كَافِرٌ وَ مَنْ نَصَبَ دِيناً غَيْرَ دِينِ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَهُوَ مُشْرِكٌ .

الکافي ج ۲، ص ۳۸۳

A necessary criterion for one to be Kafir is for them to remain upon الکبائر (Greater Sins). الکبائر are those for which hellfire is obligated. 

 

I made the following post a while back. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235075001-kufr-vs-shirk/

Edited August 16, 2022 by SoRoUsH

[ShiaMan14]

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

nothing is above God's forgiveness, but the question is will the person be given tawfeeq for repentance

That is a fair point but Allah forgives transgressions against Allah.

Victims have to forgive as well.

[Abu Nur]

8 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This narration can be seen as a guide, to provide a middle-ground, and to keep us away from endless bickering. 

There are some that we don't know their fate, but as for the two, we have an hasan hadith where even Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) his angels and people sends la'nah over them. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Mohamad_ali]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:30 AM, The Alchemist said:

 

Thanks for your input brother.

Most of the narrations you have mentioned are either from Sunni sources (Baladhuri, Dinawari, Ibn Jauzi) which are not hujjah on shia. Besides, these books are not reliable even to the Sunni standards. Not only this, these books are also replete with stuff which a shia would find insulting, baseless and ridiculous.

As regards the shia sources you mentioned (Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Mufid, al-Tusi), these works are not 100% authentic. Particular narrations are to be seen whether their asnaad are mautbar or not.

The story of her denial of burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) is also mentioned in al-Kafi.  Ref: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/67/3. The report is graded ضعيف by Allama Majlisi and لم يخرجه by Shaikh Behbudi. It is unreliable narration.

Thank you for the explanation, I have always thought this was "proven" true, based on written works, video commentary and post like this but you have clarified. Its hard to know who to believe, There are instances where a scholar is trying to be informative, and will throw away a line like "other sources have said this" without giving full context or full truth. Everyone is taking a shot at everyone else, because the narrative needs to be maintained.

I can almost see the "fixes & bent truths/lies" being formulated in the ruling classes mind to manipulate the wider population over the centries after the death of the prophet ﷺ- on both sides of the sectarian divide. So much of what is debated on these forums, on social media and in our communities is about extreme perspectives that have no footing in reality. All Shi'a worship Ali(عليه السلام) & hate Ayesha and Sahaba and all sunni's think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has body features, hate Ahl Albayt (عليه السلام) and killed our imams. 

We are more likely to respect the beliefs of other faiths than those within our own. Its crazy.