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Ummul Momineen Ayesha and Mautbar Shia Ahadith

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Posted (edited)

:bismillah:

:salam:

According to SaheeH sunni ahadith, Ummul Momineen Ayesha repented later on for what she did (Battle of Camel).

Ref:

-> Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaibah, h # 38927

Grading:

SaheeH according Nasirudeen Albani

-> Silsilah Sahiha h #474

What does shia authentic ahadith collection say about this?

 

Besides, it is widely believed in shia community that she was killed by Muawiya. However, authentic sunni ahadith say she died a natural death. What does shia authentic ahadith say about this?

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3 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

According to SaheeH sunni ahadith, Ummul Momineen Ayesha repented later on for what she did (Battle of Camel).

Ref:

-> Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaibah, h # 38927

Grading:

SaheeH according Nasirudeen Albani

-> Silsilah Sahiha h #474

What does shia authentic ahadith collection say about this?

 

Besides, it is widely believed in shia community that she was killed by Muawiya. However, authentic sunni ahadith say she died a natural death. What does shia authentic ahadith say about this?

Not hujjah upon us to believe such a thing. It is very hard to trust any repentance from such a personality who did so much evil toward Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and other believers. I really don't know how the Muslims she caused dead and agony is going to forgive her. 

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27 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Not hujjah upon us to believe such a thing. It is very hard to trust any repentance from such a personality who did so much evil toward Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and other believers. I really don't know how the Muslims she caused dead and agony is going to forgive her. 

Thanks for your input.

Hurr (رضي الله عنه) wanted to get Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) killed. But he repented and changed his side and now he is remembered with good words.

Its not Hujjah on Shia to follow Sunni sources. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what authentic (mautbar asnaad) shia sources say about her. What did Imams (عليه السلام) say about her in authentic shia narrations?

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Posted (edited)

I do not know the authenticy of the following shia narration:

From Abdullah ibn Ata, from Abi Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali (عليه السلام), he said: Ali (عليه السلام) said: "May Allah curse the People of the Camel." So a man said to Him: "Oh Commander of the Faithful, except whoever was a believer from them." So He (عليه السلام) said: "Woe unto you, there was no believer from them."

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1463_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٣٢/الصفحة_320

Perhaps our brother @SoRoUsH could help us here, Insha'Allah. 

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9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I do not know the authenticy of the following shia narration:

From Abdullah ibn Ata, from Abi Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali (عليه السلام), he said: Ali (عليه السلام) said: "May Allah curse the People of the Camel." So a man said to Him: "Oh Commander of the Faithful, except whoever was a believer from them." So He (عليه السلام) said: "Woe unto you, there was no believer from them."

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1463_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٣٢/الصفحة_320

Perhaps our brother @SoRoUsH could help us here, Insha'Allah. 

This narration is not authentic.

Grading:

-> Gair Mautbar

Source:

-> Mashrat al-Bihar al-Anwar, Ayatollah Asif Mohseni, vol #2, pg# 52

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Then she again came out of her mule, denying the burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) beside his grandfather. There was a whole story, arrows being thrown over his coffin. 

Perhaps some would say she repented again.

Brother, not everything that is famous must be authentic. In fact, many stories, which are famous, are not authentic.

I have heard this story too that she ordered arrows being thrown over Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). But, is it authentic? Please, mention authentic shia sources mentioning this story.

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6 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

But, is it authentic? Please, mention authentic shia sources mentioning this story.

Salam, 

It is quite difficult to find whether this incident happened or not. What I am sure of is the fact that there happened a dispute at the time of burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

His body was taken to the house of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aisha denied his burial. She came out riding her mule and there were soldiers with her too. And arrows were pointed at the coffin of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) on the order of Marwan bin alHakam (L). 

Here are some references:

“Tell the mother of believers that by God, we have not washed the stains of the bloodshed in the battle of the camel yet. Does she now want to start a battle of the mule?” (Baladhuri in Ansab al-Ashraf, vol. I, page 431)

"Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkira Khawasu’l-Umma, p.122; Allama Mas’udi, author of Muruju’z-Dhahab, in Isbatu’l-Wasiyya, p.136; Ibn Abi’l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju’l-Balagha, vol. IV, p.18, reporting from Abu’l-Faraj and Yahya Bin Hasan, author of Kitabu’n-Nasab; Muhammad Khwawind Shah in his Rauzatu’s-Safa, and many others have written that when the corpse of Imam Hasan was being transported to Medina, Ayesha, mounted on a mule and accompanied by a group of the Bani Umayya and their slaves, stopped the group with Imam Hasan’s body. They said that they would not let Imam Hassan be buried by the side of the Holy Prophet.

According to the report of Mas’udi, Ibn Abbas said: “It is strange of you, Ayesha! Was not the Day of Jamal, that is, your entering the battlefield mounted on a camel, sufficient for you? Now should the people also keep in memory the Day of Baghl (mule)?
Mounted on a mule, you have stopped the bier of the son of the Holy Prophet. One day mounted on a camel, another mounted on a mule, you have torn asunder the modesty of the Holy Prophet of Allah. Are you determined to destroy the Light of Allah? But surely Allah perfects His light however unpleasant it is to the polytheists; verily, we are Allah’s and to Him shall we return.”

I have seen some reports where it is mentioned that the last will of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) to Imam Hussain a s was that to bury him beside Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some even say that Imam (عليه السلام) recommended Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to avoid confrontation if people deny his burial. 

So keeping in view what we have is historical records, we do know such incident happened, if arrows are not being thrown at the coffin by Banu Umaiyyah, they did aim arrows towards the people of Bani Hashim, to show their violent  intentions. 

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"When Banu Hashim carried the coffin of Imam al-Hasan (a) toward the grave of the Prophet (s), Marwan and a group of the Umayyads took up arms and blocked the way

(Mufīd, al-Irshād, vol. 2, p. 18; Balādhurī, Ansāb al-ashrāf, vol. 3, p. 64-65; Dīnawarī, Akhbār al-ṭiwāl, p. 221; Ṭūsī, al-Amālī, p. 160-161.)

Even Sheikh Mufid has mentioned a hint of violent Ummayad intentions. According to Ibn Shahr Ashub, the Umayyads shot many arrows toward the body of Imam al-Hasan (a), seventy of which hit the Imam’s body.

(Ibn Shahr Ashūb, al-Manāqib, vol. 4, p. 44)

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14 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Thanks for your input.

Hurr (رضي الله عنه) wanted to get Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) killed. But he repented and changed his side and now he is remembered with good words.

Its not Hujjah on Shia to follow Sunni sources. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what authentic (mautbar asnaad) shia sources say about her. What did Imams (عليه السلام) say about her in authentic shia narrations?

I am not sure that Hurr wanted Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) killed.  He was, yes on Yazid (la) side at the beginning.

He repented and changed before anyone get killed 

Whereas in Ayesha case, it was different situation. Killings did occurred in thousands during the battle of Jamal under her leadership.

How would repentance be effective in her case???

Can Saddam repent after he ordered to invade Iran and thousands got killed???

Wallahualam.

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21 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam, 

It is quite difficult to find whether this incident happened or not. What I am sure of is the fact that there happened a dispute at the time of burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

His body was taken to the house of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aisha denied his burial. She came out riding her mule and there were soldiers with her too. And arrows were pointed at the coffin of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) on the order of Marwan bin alHakam (L). 

Here are some references:

“Tell the mother of believers that by God, we have not washed the stains of the bloodshed in the battle of the camel yet. Does she now want to start a battle of the mule?” (Baladhuri in Ansab al-Ashraf, vol. I, page 431)

"Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkira Khawasu’l-Umma, p.122; Allama Mas’udi, author of Muruju’z-Dhahab, in Isbatu’l-Wasiyya, p.136; Ibn Abi’l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju’l-Balagha, vol. IV, p.18, reporting from Abu’l-Faraj and Yahya Bin Hasan, author of Kitabu’n-Nasab; Muhammad Khwawind Shah in his Rauzatu’s-Safa, and many others have written that when the corpse of Imam Hasan was being transported to Medina, Ayesha, mounted on a mule and accompanied by a group of the Bani Umayya and their slaves, stopped the group with Imam Hasan’s body. They said that they would not let Imam Hassan be buried by the side of the Holy Prophet.

According to the report of Mas’udi, Ibn Abbas said: “It is strange of you, Ayesha! Was not the Day of Jamal, that is, your entering the battlefield mounted on a camel, sufficient for you? Now should the people also keep in memory the Day of Baghl (mule)?
Mounted on a mule, you have stopped the bier of the son of the Holy Prophet. One day mounted on a camel, another mounted on a mule, you have torn asunder the modesty of the Holy Prophet of Allah. Are you determined to destroy the Light of Allah? But surely Allah perfects His light however unpleasant it is to the polytheists; verily, we are Allah’s and to Him shall we return.”
 

I have seen some reports where it is mentioned that the last will of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) to Imam Hussain a s was that to bury him beside Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some even say that Imam (عليه السلام) recommended Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to avoid confrontation if people deny his burial. 

So keeping in view what we have is historical records, we do know such incident happened, if arrows are not being thrown at the coffin by Banu Umaiyyah, they did aim arrows towards the people of Bani Hashim, to show their violent  intentions. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

"When Banu Hashim carried the coffin of Imam al-Hasan (a) toward the grave of the Prophet (s), Marwan and a group of the Umayyads took up arms and blocked the way

(Mufīd, al-Irshād, vol. 2, p. 18; Balādhurī, Ansāb al-ashrāf, vol. 3, p. 64-65; Dīnawarī, Akhbār al-ṭiwāl, p. 221; Ṭūsī, al-Amālī, p. 160-161.)

Even Sheikh Mufid has mentioned a hint of violent Ummayad intentions. According to Ibn Shahr Ashub, the Umayyads shot many arrows toward the body of Imam al-Hasan (a), seventy of which hit the Imam’s body.

(Ibn Shahr Ashūb, al-Manāqib, vol. 4, p. 44)

Thanks for your input brother.

Most of the narrations you have mentioned are either from Sunni sources (Baladhuri, Dinawari, Ibn Jauzi) which are not hujjah on shia. Besides, these books are not reliable even to the Sunni standards. Not only this, these books are also replete with stuff which a shia would find insulting, baseless and ridiculous.

As regards the shia sources you mentioned (Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Mufid, al-Tusi), these works are not 100% authentic. Particular narrations are to be seen whether their asnaad are mautbar or not.

The story of her denial of burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) is also mentioned in al-Kafi.  Ref: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/67/3. The report is graded ضعيف by Allama Majlisi and لم يخرجه by Shaikh Behbudi. It is unreliable narration.

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12 minutes ago, layman said:

I am not sure that Hurr wanted Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) killed.  He was, yes on Yazid (la) side at the beginning.

He repented and changed before anyone get killed 

Whereas in Ayesha case, it was different situation. Killings did occurred in thousands during the battle of Jamal under her leadership.

How would repentance be effective in her case???

Can Saddam repent after he ordered to invade Iran and thousands got killed???

Wallahualam.

Whether her repentence is accepted or not, that is a different case.

My questions were: What do Imams (عليه السلام) say about her?

Is it authentically proven that she was murdered on orders of Muawiya?

What does authentic shia ahadith say about her last days and the narration of her repentence?

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1 hour ago, The Alchemist said:

these works are not 100% authentic. Particular narrations are to be seen whether their asnaad are mautbar or not.

Brother, it is impossible that so many Shia & Sunni sources are quoting any incident which never happened. So something did happee and what I can understand is that there may not be the incident of "throwing" arrows but there certainly were some confrontation which caused the Ummayads to draw weapons and aim the arrows towards Banu Hashim. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Cool said:

Brother, it is impossible that so many Shia & Sunni sources are quoting any incident which never happened. So something did happee and what I can understand is that there may not be the incident of "throwing" arrows but there certainly were some confrontation which caused the Ummayads to draw weapons and aim the arrows towards Banu Hashim. 

 

Brother, this is not a fine criteria to ascertain the truth if many many (shia/sunni) sources quote it. A wrong report is a wrong report even if quoted for dozens of times. In fact, shia & sunni sources contain many many narrations quoted in several books yet they are maudhu (fabrications) let alone dhaeef (weak).

As regards Ummayads drawing weapons at Banu Hashim, isn't it a different issue? We are talking about wife of Prophet (SAWW) and sister of Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), a close companion of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Edited by The Alchemist
typo
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6 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

We are talking about wife of Prophet (SAWW) and sister of Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه),

Ok, here what I have found in Tarik e Damishq by ibn Asakir:

روى ابن عساكر في (تاريخ مدينة دمشق 31 / 287), بسنده عن أبي عتيق, قال : سمعت جابر بن عبد الله يقول : شهدنا حسن بن علي يوم مات, فكادت الفتنة أن تقع بين حسين بن علي و مروان بن الحكم, وكان الحسن قد عهد إلى أخيه أن يدفن مع رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) فان خاف أن يكون في ذلك قتال, فليدفن بالبقيع, فأبى مروان أن يدعه, و مروان يومئذ معزول, يريد أن يرضي معاوية بذلك, فلم يزل مروان عدوا لبني هاشم حتى مات. 
قال جابر : فكلّمت يومئذ حسين بن علي فقلت : يا أبا عبدالله اتق الله فإنّ أخاك كان لا يحب ما ترى, فادفنه بالبقيع مع أمّه ففعل. 

 

And this is mentioned in wasa'il ashshia by Hurr al-Amili:

الحر العاملي في (وسائل الشيعة 1 / 35 / ط آل البيت) : لمّا توفّي الحسن (عليه السلام) مسموما, و خرج به أخوه الحسين (عليه السلام) ليجدد به العهد بقبر جدّه (صلى الله عليه وآله), خرجت عائشة على بغلة شهباء يحف بها بنو أمية، وهي تصيح : لا تدخلوا بيتي من لا أحب، إن دفن الحسن في بيتي لتجز هذه, و أومأت إلى ناصيتها. 
وليت شعري ألم تسمع أم المؤمنين قول جدّه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) في حقه : اللهم إنّي أحبه و أحب من يحبّه (صحيح مسلم 4 / 1882 و 2421, تاريخ دمشق لإبن عساكر ترجمة الإمام الحسن 37). 
وقوله (صلى الله عليه وآله) : اللهم إنّ هذا إبني و أنا أحبّه, فأحبّه و أحبّ من يحبّه ( كنز العمّال 13 / 652 و 37653, ومجمع الزوائد 9 / 176 ). 
وقوله (صلى الله عليه وآله) : من سرّه أن ينظر إلى سيّد شباب أهل الجنة، فلينظر إلى الحسن ( البداية والنهاية 8 / 35 ). 

The following is reported by Ya'qoobi:

 (تاريخ اليعقوبي 2 / 225) : و قيل : إن عائشة ركبت بغلة شهباء، وقالت : بيتي لا آذن فيه لأحد. فأتاها القاسم بن محمد بن أبي بكر، فقال لها : يا عمّة ! ما غسلنا رؤوسنا من يوم الجمل الأحمر، أتريدين أن يقال يوم البغلة الشهباء ؟ فرجعت

And I can share more references as well.

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8 minutes ago, Cool said:

Ok, here what I have found in Tarik e Damishq by ibn Asakir:

روى ابن عساكر في (تاريخ مدينة دمشق 31 / 287), بسنده عن أبي عتيق, قال : سمعت جابر بن عبد الله يقول : شهدنا حسن بن علي يوم مات, فكادت الفتنة أن تقع بين حسين بن علي و مروان بن الحكم, وكان الحسن قد عهد إلى أخيه أن يدفن مع رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) فان خاف أن يكون في ذلك قتال, فليدفن بالبقيع, فأبى مروان أن يدعه, و مروان يومئذ معزول, يريد أن يرضي معاوية بذلك, فلم يزل مروان عدوا لبني هاشم حتى مات. 
قال جابر : فكلّمت يومئذ حسين بن علي فقلت : يا أبا عبدالله اتق الله فإنّ أخاك كان لا يحب ما ترى, فادفنه بالبقيع مع أمّه ففعل. 

 

And this is mentioned in wasa'il ashshia by Hurr al-Amili:

الحر العاملي في (وسائل الشيعة 1 / 35 / ط آل البيت) : لمّا توفّي الحسن (عليه السلام) مسموما, و خرج به أخوه الحسين (عليه السلام) ليجدد به العهد بقبر جدّه (صلى الله عليه وآله), خرجت عائشة على بغلة شهباء يحف بها بنو أمية، وهي تصيح : لا تدخلوا بيتي من لا أحب، إن دفن الحسن في بيتي لتجز هذه, و أومأت إلى ناصيتها. 
وليت شعري ألم تسمع أم المؤمنين قول جدّه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) في حقه : اللهم إنّي أحبه و أحب من يحبّه (صحيح مسلم 4 / 1882 و 2421, تاريخ دمشق لإبن عساكر ترجمة الإمام الحسن 37). 
وقوله (صلى الله عليه وآله) : اللهم إنّ هذا إبني و أنا أحبّه, فأحبّه و أحبّ من يحبّه ( كنز العمّال 13 / 652 و 37653, ومجمع الزوائد 9 / 176 ). 
وقوله (صلى الله عليه وآله) : من سرّه أن ينظر إلى سيّد شباب أهل الجنة، فلينظر إلى الحسن ( البداية والنهاية 8 / 35 ). 

The following is reported by Ya'qoobi:

 (تاريخ اليعقوبي 2 / 225) : و قيل : إن عائشة ركبت بغلة شهباء، وقالت : بيتي لا آذن فيه لأحد. فأتاها القاسم بن محمد بن أبي بكر، فقال لها : يا عمّة ! ما غسلنا رؤوسنا من يوم الجمل الأحمر، أتريدين أن يقال يوم البغلة الشهباء ؟ فرجعت

And I can share more references as well.

Thanks for making effort to find these references.

Brother, can you help determining which of references you quoted are saheeh?

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1 minute ago, The Alchemist said:

Thanks for making effort to find these references.

Brother, can you help determining which of references you quoted are saheeh?

I think what you shared of al-Kafi was sahih too because how can Allama Majlisi declares it da'eef when he himself quoted the same in his Bihar:

العلامة المجلسي في (بحار الأنوار 44 / 154) عن كتاب الخرائج: انه روي أن الصادق (عليه السلام) قال : لمّا حضرت الحسن بن علي (عليه السلام) الوفاة, بكى بكاء شديداً وقال : إني أقدم على أمر عظيم, وهول لم أقدم على مثله قط, ثم أوصى أن يدفنوه بالبقيع, فقال : يا أخي احملني على سريري إلى قبر جدي رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) لأجدّد به عهدي, ثم ردّني إلى قبر جدّتي فاطمة بنت أسد فأدفني, فستعلم يا ابن أم, أن القوم يظنون أنكم تريدون دفني عند رسول الله, فيجلبون في منعكم, وبالله أقسم عليك أن تهرق في أمري محجمة دم .
فلمّا غسلّه وكفّنه الحسين (عليه السلام) وحمله على سريره, وتوجّه إلى قبر جدّه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ليجدّد به عهداً, أتى مروان بن الحكم ومن معه من بني أمية فقال : أيدفن عثمان في أقصى المدينة, ويدفن الحسن مع النبي ؟ لا يكون ذلك أبداً, ولحقت عائشة على بغل وهي تقول : مالي ولكم ؟ تريدون أن تدخلوا بيتي من لا أحب .
فقال ابن عباس لمروان بن الحكم, لا نريد دفن صاحبنا, فإنه كان أعلم بحرمة قبر رسول الله من أن يطرق عليه هجما, كما طرق ذلك غيره, ودخل بيته بغير إذنه, انصرف فنحن ندفنه بالبقيع كما وصّى .

Actually this incident is mentioned by so many historians that there is no doubt that such incident never happened.

What we can doubt on, is only that whether arrows were thrown at the coffin or not. 

Even the website of Ayatullah Sistani mentions all these references.

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Posted (edited)

This time a sahih asnaad from Tarik e Damishq:

عن عباد بن عبد الله بن الزبير قال سمعت عائشة تقول يومئذ هذا الأمر لا يكون أبدا يدفن ببقيع الغرقد ولا يكون لهم رابعا والله انه لبيتي أعطانيه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) في حياته وما دفن فيه عمر وهو خليفة إلا بأمري وما آثر علي عندنا بحسن

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3169_تاريخ-مدينة-دمشق-ابن-عساكر-ج-١٣/الصفحة_0?pageno=293#top

This is also quoted by Dahabi.

Edited by Cool
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Another aspect came to my sight in this story is that Aisha was not the legal heir of the house of Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not gave that house to Aisha.

It is narrated by Tabari that at the time of his demise, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said this:

روى الطبري أنه (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: "إذا غسلتموني وكفنتموني فضعوني على سريري في بيتي هذا على شفير قبري". (تاريخ الطبري ج3 ص193)

He never said في بيت عائشة . Had the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave the ownership of house to each of his wife, the house of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would be non-existent. 

No wise person would say this while the Quran mention this:

"يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لا تَدْخُلُوا بُيُوتَ النَّبِيِّ إِلا أَن يُؤْذَنَ لَكُمْ" (الأحزاب: 54).

Who was the legal heir of houses of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? This is yet another question.

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45 minutes ago, Cool said:

I think what you shared of al-Kafi was sahih too because how can Allama Majlisi declares it da'eef when he himself quoted the same in his Bihar:

العلامة المجلسي في (بحار الأنوار 44 / 154) عن كتاب الخرائج: انه روي أن الصادق (عليه السلام) قال : لمّا حضرت الحسن بن علي (عليه السلام) الوفاة, بكى بكاء شديداً وقال : إني أقدم على أمر عظيم, وهول لم أقدم على مثله قط, ثم أوصى أن يدفنوه بالبقيع, فقال : يا أخي احملني على سريري إلى قبر جدي رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) لأجدّد به عهدي, ثم ردّني إلى قبر جدّتي فاطمة بنت أسد فأدفني, فستعلم يا ابن أم, أن القوم يظنون أنكم تريدون دفني عند رسول الله, فيجلبون في منعكم, وبالله أقسم عليك أن تهرق في أمري محجمة دم .
فلمّا غسلّه وكفّنه الحسين (عليه السلام) وحمله على سريره, وتوجّه إلى قبر جدّه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ليجدّد به عهداً, أتى مروان بن الحكم ومن معه من بني أمية فقال : أيدفن عثمان في أقصى المدينة, ويدفن الحسن مع النبي ؟ لا يكون ذلك أبداً, ولحقت عائشة على بغل وهي تقول : مالي ولكم ؟ تريدون أن تدخلوا بيتي من لا أحب .
فقال ابن عباس لمروان بن الحكم, لا نريد دفن صاحبنا, فإنه كان أعلم بحرمة قبر رسول الله من أن يطرق عليه هجما, كما طرق ذلك غيره, ودخل بيته بغير إذنه, انصرف فنحن ندفنه بالبقيع كما وصّى .

Actually this incident is mentioned by so many historians that there is no doubt that such incident never happened.

What we can doubt on, is only that whether arrows were thrown at the coffin or not. 

Even the website of Ayatullah Sistani mentions all these references.

Bihar al-Anwar is majority dhaeef. Mentioning of an incident by so many historians does not make it saheeh.

Can you send links of Ayatollah Sistani's website talking about the issue? What is his verdict on this?

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37 minutes ago, Cool said:

This time a sahih asnaad from Tarik e Damishq:

عن عباد بن عبد الله بن الزبير قال سمعت عائشة تقول يومئذ هذا الأمر لا يكون أبدا يدفن ببقيع الغرقد ولا يكون لهم رابعا والله انه لبيتي أعطانيه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) في حياته وما دفن فيه عمر وهو خليفة إلا بأمري وما آثر علي عندنا بحسن

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3169_تاريخ-مدينة-دمشق-ابن-عساكر-ج-١٣/الصفحة_0?pageno=293#top

This is also quoted by Dahabi.

May be brother @SoRoUsH can help us which of the references (including this one) are saheeh.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Can you send links of Ayatollah Sistani's website talking about the issue? What is his verdict on this?

Here is another link, it has also quoted the detailed references. I have closed the window of Ayatullah Sistani' s link. Will share later.

https://www.aqaed.com/faq/1159/

 

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3 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

May be brother @SoRoUsH can help us which of the references (including this one) are saheeh.

 

Yes, He is the right person, have grasp on ilm ul rijal as well as Arabic.

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1 hour ago, The Alchemist said:

May be brother @SoRoUsH can help us which of the references (including this one) are saheeh.

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Yes, He is the right person, have grasp on ilm ul rijal as well as Arabic.

سلام

I am not the right person. I am neither an expert in Ilm ul-Rijal or in Arabic. 

My focus has always been on The Four Books, and a few other books by Sheikh Tusi. 

Matters of Tarikh (history) are evaluated differently from matters of narrations (أحادیث). The latter are a guide to how we ought to behave and act in this world (normative), whereas the former is about what happened in the past (descriptive). 

Yes, there can be overlaps, however, the intention behind these domain may be different. 

I have not ventured out of أحادیث into the the realm of Tarikh/history, and even within the domain of narrations, I keep my focus on only a few books. 

With that in mind, I can say that I looked into the Khabar/خبر from Tarikh e Damishq, and I didn't find anything like it in The Four Books and the other books by Tusi. The narrators seem to be majhool. 

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. If you find any narrations in our Hadith books (not history books), I may be able to be more helpful.

Lastly, to repeat myself, I am neither an expert in Arabic nor Ilm ul-rijal.

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Posted (edited)

أَبِي رَحِمَهُ اَللَّهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا  سَعْدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَنْ  عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ  مَسْعَدَةَ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ

جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ قَالَ: قَالَ مَرْوَانُ بْنُ اَلْحَكَمِ لَمَّا هَزَمَنَا عَلِيٌّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ بِالْبَصْرَةِ رَدَّ عَلَى اَلنَّاسِ أَمْوَالَهُمْ مَنْ أَقَامَ بَيِّنَةً أَعْطَاهُ وَ مَنْ لَمْ يُقِمْ بَيِّنَةً حَلَّفَهُ قَالَ فَقَالَ لَهُ قَائِلٌ يَا أَمِيرَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ اِقْسِمِ اَلْفَيْءَ بَيْنَنَا وَ اَلسَّبْيَ قَالَ فَلَمَّا أَكْثَرُوا عَلَيْهِ قَالَ أَيُّكُمْ يَأْخُذُ أُمَّ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ فِي سَهْمِهِ فَكَفُّوا 

علل الشرایع ج ۲، ص ۶۰۳

Here's Saheeh narration, where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refers to Aisha as أم المومنین.

The same narration with a weak sanad exists in تهذیب الاحکام.

 

The term أم المومنین, Mother of Believers, in this context, and probably many other contexts, should be understood in terms of practical rulings regarding one's mother. For example, after the Battle of Jamal, as a war booty, was it permissible to own Aisha? No. Was it permissible to have intercourse with Aisha, as a war booty, or slave? No

Her position was like a mother for all believers. You can never own your mother, as a slave or otherwise, or have intercourse with your mother, even if your mother was divorced and single. 

That's how I see it. 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

The term أم المومنین, Mother of Believers, in this context, and probably many other contexts, should be understood in terms of practical rulings regarding one's mother. For example, after the Battle of Jamal, as a war booty, was it permissible to own Aisha? No. Was it permissible to have intercourse with Aisha, as a war booty, or slave? No

does war booty and slaves apply when battling muslims? I know its the case when battling non muslims but does this still apply when battling muslims?

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

does war booty and slaves apply when battling muslims? I know its the case when battling non muslims but does this still apply when battling muslims?

Good question. I'm not sure. From this narration, we can see that (many of) Imam Ali's men must have expected the division of war booty amongst them. So, it must not have been obvious that it is not permissible. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام), however, silenced them, and gave back most of the booty to their original owners. 

So, either Imam's Ali's men didn't consider their enemies as Muslims or they didn't know the correct ruling or, due to the circumstances, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) determined that most of the booty must be returned to their owners. I don't know.

Edited by SoRoUsH
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I don't know how authentic it is (ie whether hassan or muwaththaq or Sahih) but there is a narration in a biography of Imam al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) written by Shaykh Mufeed (rh) which he uses to rebut the Fattahiyyah and the Ismailiyyah over the matter of his Imamate (by all accounts it appears authentic, otherwise the very purpose of doing istidlal on it would be defeated). A companion of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) visits his house and sees al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) as a child; al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) informs the companion that the boy -child is his successor; al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) then speaks to the companion and disapproves of him having named his daughter 'Humayra' (another name for Aisha), saying that 'we (the Ahlul Bayt (as)) do not like this name. '

Qara'in such as these indicate that the Imams (عليه السلام) didn't view her favourably. 

Salam

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I

1 minute ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I don't know how authentic it is (ie whether hassan or muwaththaq or Sahih) but there is a narration in a biography of Imam al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) written by Shaykh Mufeed (rh) which he uses to rebut the Fattahiyyah and the Ismailiyyah over the matter of his Imamate (by all accounts it appears authentic, otherwise the very purpose of doing istidlal on it would be defeated). A companion of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) visits his house and sees al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) as a child; al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) informs the companion that the boy -child is his successor; al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) then speaks to the companion and disapproves of him having named his daughter 'Humayra' (another name for Aisha), saying that 'we (the Ahlul Bayt (as)) do not like this name. '

Qara'in such as these indicate that the Imams (عليه السلام) didn't view her favourably. 

Salam

I can't recall the exact reference now, apologies. 

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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Lastly, to repeat myself, I am neither an expert in Arabic nor Ilm ul-rijal.

My mistake brother!! Pardon me.

The way you quote ahadith & Arabic text of ahadith gave me this impression. 

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Aisha testified before his father, along with Umar Al-Khattab that she heard Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saying:

نحن معاشر الأنبياء لا نورث

Upon listening that Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام) said: 

هذا أول شهادة زور شهدا بها في الإسلام

This is my meezan, she witnessed against whom?

Throwing a lie on Prophet was a big crime? Or helping his father with false testimony just to deny the claim of Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام) was a big crime? Or fighting war with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was a big crime? Or denying the burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was a big crime? 

We don't really need to judge anyone with these sort of historical records. But these records do effect our emotions as we love for the sake of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and we hate for the sake of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

أنا حرب لمن حاربكم ، وسلم لمن سالمكم

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Aisha testified before his father, along with Umar Al-Khattab that she heard Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saying:

نحن معاشر الأنبياء لا نورث

Upon listening that Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام) said: 

هذا أول شهادة زور شهدا بها في الإسلام

This is my meezan, she witnessed against whom?

Informative.

Can you mention reference? Is it shia source?

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