Irrefutable weak narrations in Shia books (particularly Kutub al-Araba)

[The Alchemist]

Salaam,

 

Some shia (perhaps Akhbaris or non-Taqleedis) try their best to justify that all hadith in shia books (particularly Kutub al-Araba) are authentic. They deny ilm-ul-rijal and view it as a fabrication (bida'). When shown some weak ahadith, they try to prove that these ahadith are being misinterpreted and are infact authentic. What are those weak ahadtih which no one can claim to be authentic due to their strange matn (content)?

Members are requested to share those weak ahadith which are irrefutable.

[The Alchemist]

Al Kafi v. 8, pg. 333

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَمِيلَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْحَلَبِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) يَقُولُ اخْتِلَافُ بَنِي الْعَبَّاسِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ النِّدَاءُ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ خُرُوجُ الْقَائِمِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ قُلْتُ وَ كَيْفَ النِّدَاءُ قَالَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوَّلَ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عَلِيّاً وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ قَالَ وَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ فِي آخِرِ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عُثْمَانَ وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ.

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Fazzaal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby who said:

I heard Abu Abdullah(asws) saying: ‘The differing of the Clan of Abbas is from the inevitable, and the Call is from the inevitable, and the coming out of Al-Qaim(asws) is from the inevitable’. I said, ‘And How would be the Call?’ He(asws) said: ‘A Caller will Call out from the sky at the beginning of the day: ‘Indeed! Ali(asws) and his(asws) Shi'tes, they are the winners’. He(asws) said: ‘And a Caller will Call out at the end of the day: ‘Indeed! Usman and his Shi'tes, they are the winners’.

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by The Alchemist

[The Alchemist]

Just now, The Alchemist said:

Al Kafi v. 8, pg. 333

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَمِيلَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْحَلَبِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) يَقُولُ اخْتِلَافُ بَنِي الْعَبَّاسِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ النِّدَاءُ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ خُرُوجُ الْقَائِمِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ قُلْتُ وَ كَيْفَ النِّدَاءُ قَالَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوَّلَ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عَلِيّاً وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ قَالَ وَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ فِي آخِرِ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عُثْمَانَ وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ.

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Fazzaal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby who said:

I heard Abu Abdullah(asws) saying: ‘The differing of the Clan of Abbas is from the inevitable, and the Call is from the inevitable, and the coming out of Al-Qaim(asws) is from the inevitable’. I said, ‘And How would be the Call?’ He(asws) said: ‘A Caller will Call out from the sky at the beginning of the day: ‘Indeed! Ali(asws) and his(asws) [Edited Out]es, they are the winners’. He(asws) said: ‘And a Caller will Call out at the end of the day: ‘Indeed! Usman and his [Edited Out]es, they are the winners’.

Dhaeef (weak)

Mirat Ul Uqool, v. 26,  pg. 307

[علوي]

الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ نَصْرٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ شِمْرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ قَالَ أَرَادَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) الرُّكُوبَ إِلَى بَعْضِ شِيعَتِهِ لِيَعُودَهُ فَقَالَ يَا جَابِرُ الْحَقْنِي فَتَبِعْتُهُ فَلَمَّا انْتَهَى إِلَى بَابِ الدَّارِ خَرَجَ عَلَيْنَا ابْنٌ لَهُ صَغِيرٌ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) مَا اسْمُكَ قَالَ مُحَمَّدٌ قَالَ فَبِمَا تُكَنَّى قَالَ بِعَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) لَقَدِ احْتَظَرْتَ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ احْتِظَاراً شَدِيداً إِنَّ الشَّيْطَانَ إِذَا سَمِعَ مُنَادِياً يُنَادِي يَا مُحَمَّدُ يَا عَلِيُّ ذَابَ كَمَا يَذُوبُ الرَّصَاصُ حَتَّى إِذَا سَمِعَ مُنَادِياً يُنَادِي بِاسْمِ عَدُوٍّ مِنْ أَعْدَائِنَا اهْتَزَّ وَ اخْتَالَ .

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla’ ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Muslim from al-Husayn ibn Nasr from his father from ‘Amr ibn Shamir from Jabir who has said the following:

“Abu Ja‘far (عليه السلام) once wanted to visit one of his followers because he was ill. He [the Imam] told me to follow him and I followed him [the Imam]. When he [the Imam] arrived at his door his small son came out and Abu Jafar (عليه السلام) asked,

‘What is your name?’

He replied, ‘It is Muhammad.’

He [the Imam] asked, ‘What is your Kunyah?’

He replied, ‘It is Ali.’

Abu Ja‘far (عليه السلام) then said, ‘You have fortified yourself against Satan very intensely. When Satan hears someone calling O Muhammad, O Ali, Satan melts like lead until he hears someone calling with the names of our enemies; he becomes excited and swaggers.’”

(Source: Kitab al-Kafi, Volume 6, Name and Titles, Hadeeth #12. Graded as daeef alaa mashhoor by Sayyed Mohammad Baqer al-Majlisi)

[The Alchemist]

6 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ نَصْرٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ شِمْرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ قَالَ أَرَادَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) الرُّكُوبَ إِلَى بَعْضِ شِيعَتِهِ لِيَعُودَهُ فَقَالَ يَا جَابِرُ الْحَقْنِي فَتَبِعْتُهُ فَلَمَّا انْتَهَى إِلَى بَابِ الدَّارِ خَرَجَ عَلَيْنَا ابْنٌ لَهُ صَغِيرٌ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) مَا اسْمُكَ قَالَ مُحَمَّدٌ قَالَ فَبِمَا تُكَنَّى قَالَ بِعَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) لَقَدِ احْتَظَرْتَ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ احْتِظَاراً شَدِيداً إِنَّ الشَّيْطَانَ إِذَا سَمِعَ مُنَادِياً يُنَادِي يَا مُحَمَّدُ يَا عَلِيُّ ذَابَ كَمَا يَذُوبُ الرَّصَاصُ حَتَّى إِذَا سَمِعَ مُنَادِياً يُنَادِي بِاسْمِ عَدُوٍّ مِنْ أَعْدَائِنَا اهْتَزَّ وَ اخْتَالَ .

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla’ ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Muslim from al-Husayn ibn Nasr from his father from ‘Amr ibn Shamir from Jabir who has said the following:

“Abu Ja‘far (عليه السلام) once wanted to visit one of his followers because he was ill. He [the Imam] told me to follow him and I followed him [the Imam]. When he [the Imam] arrived at his door his small son came out and Abu Jafar (عليه السلام) asked,

‘What is your name?’

He replied, ‘It is Muhammad.’

He [the Imam] asked, ‘What is your Kunyah?’

He replied, ‘It is Ali.’

Abu Ja‘far (عليه السلام) then said, ‘You have fortified yourself against Satan very intensely. When Satan hears someone calling O Muhammad, O Ali, Satan melts like lead until he hears someone calling with the names of our enemies; he becomes excited and swaggers.’”

(Source: Kitab al-Kafi, Volume 6, Name and Titles, Hadeeth #12. Graded as daeef alaa mashhoor by Sayyed Mohammad Baqer al-Majlisi)

What is objectionable and irrefutable in this narration?

[علوي]

"When Satan hears someone calling O Muhammad, O Ali, Satan melts like lead."

Obviously Shaytan (LA) hates it when we remember the holy Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his family (a). 

[The Alchemist]

2 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

"When Satan hears someone calling O Muhammad, O Ali, Satan melts like lead."

Obviously Shaytan (LA) hates it when we remember the holy Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his family (a). 

OP is about weak narrations with objectionable content (matn) which cannot be refuted by those who reject ilm-ul-rijal.

Like narration I shared above, has objectionable content i.e. Usman and his followers are winners. This is something which rejectors of ilm-ul-Rijal cannot refute and they have to accept that the narration is unacceptable.

Edited August 29, 2022 by The Alchemist

[علوي]

15 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

OP is about weak narrations with objectionable content (matn) which cannot be refuted by those who reject ilm-ul-rijal.

Like narration I shared above, has objectionable content i.e. Usman and his followers are winners. This is something which rejectors of ilm-ul-Rijal cannot refute and they have to accept that the narration is unacceptable.

Ohh my bad I misunderstood 

[Mohamad_ali]

There have to be more than this - the Sunni books are full of black magic, lewd behavior, contradictions ... there must be Hadith that are accepted that just seem wrong in our books.

I have a view that all books outside the Quran contain fabrications to a degree - some more than others. I just cant see how the powers on both sides of the sectarian divide (i mean political powers) didnt use the scholars & imams of their time (like they use the ones in our times) to change, adjust & manipulate information. Back then, hadith was how you changed how people saw the Quran.

Thoughts?

 

[Ibn Tayyar]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:26 AM, The Alchemist said:

Al Kafi v. 8, pg. 333

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَمِيلَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْحَلَبِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) يَقُولُ اخْتِلَافُ بَنِي الْعَبَّاسِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ النِّدَاءُ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ خُرُوجُ الْقَائِمِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ قُلْتُ وَ كَيْفَ النِّدَاءُ قَالَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوَّلَ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عَلِيّاً وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ قَالَ وَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ فِي آخِرِ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عُثْمَانَ وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ.

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Fazzaal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby who said:

I heard Abu Abdullah(asws) saying: ‘The differing of the Clan of Abbas is from the inevitable, and the Call is from the inevitable, and the coming out of Al-Qaim(asws) is from the inevitable’. I said, ‘And How would be the Call?’ He(asws) said: ‘A Caller will Call out from the sky at the beginning of the day: ‘Indeed! Ali(asws) and his(asws) Shi'tes, they are the winners’. He(asws) said: ‘And a Caller will Call out at the end of the day: ‘Indeed! Usman and his Shi'tes, they are the winners’.

 

I don't see why the matn would be considered strange, since we have a similar hadith that would be graded as reliable.

Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Sa`eed narrated. He said: `Ali b. al-Hasan narrated from al-`Abbas b. `Amer b. Rabbah ath-Thaqafi from `Abdillah b. Bukayr from Zurara b. A`yan. He said:

I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام say: A Caller will call from the sky: “Verily, fulan is the ruler (amir)”, and a Caller will call: “Verily, `Ali and his Shi`a are the victorious”. I said: So who would fight the Mahdi after this? So he said: Satan will certainly call: “Verily, fulan and his Shi`a are the victorious” – a man from Banu Umayya. I said: So who will distinguish the truthful from the liar? He said: Those who relate our narrations and say it will happen prior to its occurrence will know; and know that they are rightly and righteous.

(Nu`mani’s Ghayba) 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam/the-uprising-of-the-imam

So another hadith explains that the other caller would be the Shaytan, may Allah curse him.

[The Alchemist]

7 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I don't see why the matn would be considered strange, since we have a similar hadith that would be graded as reliable.

Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Sa`eed narrated. He said: `Ali b. al-Hasan narrated from al-`Abbas b. `Amer b. Rabbah ath-Thaqafi from `Abdillah b. Bukayr from Zurara b. A`yan. He said:

I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام say: A Caller will call from the sky: “Verily, fulan is the ruler (amir)”, and a Caller will call: “Verily, `Ali and his Shi`a are the victorious”. I said: So who would fight the Mahdi after this? So he said: Satan will certainly call: “Verily, fulan and his Shi`a are the victorious” – a man from Banu Umayya. I said: So who will distinguish the truthful from the liar? He said: Those who relate our narrations and say it will happen prior to its occurrence will know; and know that they are rightly and righteous.

(Nu`mani’s Ghayba) 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam/the-uprising-of-the-imam

So another hadith explains that the other caller would be the Shaytan, may Allah curse him.

Seems fine.

Do you know any weak hadith with unacceptable and strange content?

Edited August 30, 2022 by The Alchemist

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 8/30/2022 at 7:41 PM, The Alchemist said:

Seems fine.

Do you know any weak hadith with unacceptable and strange content?

Salam

Is the hadith `` Hamar Yafur `` authentic?

he explanation of the question

 

You consider Kafi as your best book; do you know what insults have been attributed to the prophet in this book? One of these insults is the Hadith of Selsele Al-Hamar. According to this narration, the prophet talks to donkey and this donkey says a Hadith from Hazrat Nuh that had been narrated by his father. 

This Hadith proves several matters

 

1. Donkeys talk to human;

2. The donkey said to the messenger of God ' ' may the life of my father and mother be sacrificed for you! First, in spite of the existence of the companions, would there be any chance left for the donkey’s sacrificing himself for sake of the prophet. Second, suppose that this donkey has the choice over his life, will he have the choice of the life of his parents?

3. There is a thousand years time distance between Hazrat Nuh and the messenger of God whereas this donkey has narrated from Hazrat Nuh with four intermediates ( he has narrated it from his father ; his father has narrated it from his father and he has narrated it from his father); how have these donkeys lived for thousands years?

As you see, the Shias have left their wisdom and religion to such persons.

Answer

Quote

These are some examples of insults that the Sunni scientists had mentioned in their most valid books. How can 't the Sunni scientists see these insults in the most valid books? But they ridicule at the Shias because of weak narration that Kafi has said in the book ' ' Bugh and Korna ' '.  

 

Quote

The main narration

وَرُوِيَ أَنَّ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عليه السلام قَالَ: إِنَّ ذَلِكَ الْحِمَارَ [الْحِمَارِ عُفَيْر] كَلَّمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وآله فَقَالَ: بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وَ أُمِّي إِنَّ أَبِي حَدَّثَنِي عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ جَدِّهِ عَنْ أَبِيهِ أَنَّهُ كَانَ مَعَ نُوحٍ فِي السَّفِينَةِ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ نُوحٌ فَمَسَحَ عَلَى كَفَلِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَخْرُجُ مِنْ صُلْبِ هَذَا الْحِمَارِ حِمَارٌ يَرْكَبُهُ سَيِّدُ النَّبِيِّينَ وَ خَاتَمُهُمْ فَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذِي جَعَلَنِي ذَلِكَ الْحِمَار. 

It has been narrated that Amir Al-Momenin (peace be upon him) has said ' ' the prophet talked to the prophet (peace of Allah be upon him and his descendants) and said ' ' my father and mother may sacrifice for the sake of you. My father from his father and he from his grandfather and he from his father have narrated that he along with Nuh was in the ship and Nuh stood up, touched his buttock and said ' ' a donkey will come from behind this donkey that Sayad of the prophets and the last prophet will sit on it. Thank God for he has considered me the same donkey.

Al-Koleini Al-Razi, Abu Jafar Muhammad Ben Yaghub Ben Eshagh (died in 328 hejira), Al-Osul Min Al-Kafi, v 1 p 237, under hadith no9, Published by: Eslamiye, Tehran, Second Edition, 1362 hejira

Criticism and analysis

Before reason criticism and answers along with faults, we will analyze this narration in order to understand whether this narration has worth reference or not.

Introduction

 

The writer of these faults should know that we, Shias, are not like Sunni scientists that consider some of Hadith books valid absolutely and we have no right to criticize its matters.

 

 

 Analyzing the document of the narration 

As it can be found out from the main narration, this narration has been narrated from in the rest of the ninth narration from the chapters 

«بَابُ مَا عِنْدَ الْأَئِمَّةِ مِنْ سِلَاحِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وآله وَ مَتَاعِه‏»

«وَرُوِيَ أَنَّ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ...» 

And this kind of narration has no worth reasoning and it does not need all of this fuss.

If the writer of this matter had been familiar with the science of Hadith, he would not have referred to such weak narration.

Alame Majlesi (may God be well pleased with him) has said about the explanation of this narration 

 الحديث التاسع: ضعيف وآخره مرسل. 

The ninth Hadith is weak and its last part is Morsel.

Al-Majlesi Muhammad Bagher (died in 1111 hejira), Merat Al-Oghul Fi Sharh Akhbar Ale Al-Rasul, v 3 p 48, Published by: Dar Al-Kotob Al-Eslamiye, Tehran, Second Edition, 1404 hejira- 1263

Conclusion

Quote

                                               

First: the document of the narration ' ' Hamar Yafur ' ' that has been said in the book ' ' Kafi ' ' is weak and a weak narration has no worth reasoning;

 

Second: the Sunni scientists have narrated this narration in their books with document;

 

Third: talking of the messenger of God with animals in the Sunni books widely and with valid document;

 

Fourth: if narrating this narration is considered as insulting the messenger of God, the Sunni scientists have narrated it ten times in Sahih Bokhari and Moslem.

 

 People living in glass house never throw stones to others

Is the hadith `` Hamar Yafur `` authentic? (valiasr-aj.com)

 

 

 

 

 

[Ibn Murtuz]

@Ashvazdanghe You forget the "rabbit mensturates" hadith. It's unscientific because rabbits don't mensturate.

You still haven't answered my last answer in that thread

Edited September 12, 2022 by Ibn Murtuz

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

 You forget the "rabbit mensturates" hadith. It's unscientific because rabbits don't mensturate.

Salam  surly "rabbit mensturates"  ,based on scientific facts

Quote

Do Rabbits Have Periods?

If you have ever been around a rabbit, you may have wondered if they experience periods the same way that women do. Do Rabbits Have Periods?

We are here to tell you that, yes, rabbits do have periods! In this blog post, we will discuss the menstrual cycle of rabbits in detail.

3 Symptoms: Do Rabbits Have Periods| Rabbits | Rabbit | Period - Farm Animal Report

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Red Urine: Blood or Plant Pigment?

July 10, 2011 by HRS Team

It can happen any time of the year, but it’s particularly during the winter holiday season that the House Rabbit Society receives a flood of phone calls from distraught rabbit people saying that their bunny is producing “bloody urine.” Most of the time it’s not what they think it is, but understandably these people are concerned, since the facts are not widely known.

The Biology and Medicine of Rabbits and Rodents by Harkness and Wagner contains one paragraph on this topic:

“Bloody urine is rare in rabbits and rodents. Many cases of ‘bloody’ urine turn out to be porphyrin-pigmented basic urine or a sanguineous vaginal discharge associated with uterine adenocarcinoma, polyps, or abortion. Thick white urine containing reddish-orange pigment is indicative of an excess of dietary calcium.”

 

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Bloody urine in rabbits may be rare, but red urine is not. People who live with house rabbits will find this out. Diseases of Domestic Rabbits (1988) by Lieve Okerman contains two sentences on this subject:

“Red colour of the urine is sometimes observed in rabbits. It is probably caused by a plant pigment and does not affect the health of the animal.”

Red Urine: Blood or Plant Pigment? – House Rabbit Society

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Knowing the period of heat in rabbits, whether female or male, is important. This is because being in heat can determine their behavior as well as how you need to care for them. It can also make this care more difficult than usual. 

 

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This is why AnimalWised looks into the signs of heat period in rabbits for both males and females. This way we can determine why they are behaving in such a way, how long the behavior will last and what to do to make sure the rabbit is in as little distress as possible.

 

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What is being in heat

The heat period for a rabbit is the time when it is at its most fertile. This means that females will be in the most likely state to become pregnant and males will be the most readily able to inseminate them. This heat period will differ according to species.

 

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Male rabbits in heat

Some may not even be aware that male rabbits get in heat, but they do. It is not the same physiological function as in female rabbits since they have different genitalia, but they do share certain characteristics.

Female rabbits in heat

As with male rabbits, female rabbits will reach sexual maturity very soon. There are variations in a female rabbits first heat period, but it can start between 4 - 6 months of age. It also is maintained throughout their life cycle, also with periods of heightened or lessened sexual activity. Rabbits should not present any blood during the estrous cycle. If they do, it is likely a sign something is wrong and may need to be taken to the veterinarian.

Signs of Heat Period in Rabbits - Male and Female (animalwised.com)

[khizarr]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:13 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam  surly "rabbit mensturates"  ,based on scientific facts

Rabbits.. are induced ovulators. They literally physically cannot menstruate.

Can some moderator here at least keep an eye out for this sort of blatant misinformation? It's hideous.

[Hameedeh]

4 hours ago, khizarr said:

Can some moderator here at least keep an eye out for this sort of blatant misinformation? It's hideous.

Please do not report something you disagree with. Refute and bring your own evidence. 

[khizarr]

13 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Please do not report something you disagree with. Refute and bring your own evidence. 

Seriously? You can do better; this is not some kind of ethical question where I would have to agree or disagree with the next person. It's a straight-forward yes or no question about whether an animal species menstruates or not. I'll still give you the benefit of the doubt though.

https://animalpickings.com/do-female-rabbits-have-periods/

https://everythingbunnies.com/do-rabbits-have-periods/

https://peteducate.com/do-rabbits-have-periods/

 

And if you know what induced ovulator means, you'd know that that does not include menstruation. Simple as that.

[Laayla]

^^^This is SC.  You want the Big Tech police go to twitterdumb, fassadbook, and InstaHaram.

 

[ShiaChat Mod]

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

And if you know what induced ovulator means, you'd know that that does not include menstruation. Simple as that.

Rabbits can also ovulate spontaneously. That is not the point. Did you read the farm report posted by Ashvazdanghe? There is a bloody discharge mentioned.

On 9/12/2022 at 11:13 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam  surly "rabbit mensturates"  ,based on scientific facts

3 Symptoms: Do Rabbits Have Periods| Rabbits | Rabbit | Period - Farm Animal Report

 

[khizarr]

3 hours ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

There is a bloody discharge mentioned.

And "bloody discharge" or "red urine" is supposedly the same thing as menstruation? Maybe I have this all jumbled up in my own head but I am troubled by the fact that @Ashvazdanghe would not draw the distinction between the two. Did they mean it sarcastically and I'm not understanding the joke? Because if we're talking about menstruation, as in specifically the cyclic, monthly process of the lining being shed, then I'm afraid we have to accept that rabbits do not undergo this process. 

[ShiaChat Mod]

3 hours ago, khizarr said:

And "bloody discharge" or "red urine" is supposedly the same thing as menstruation? Maybe I have this all jumbled up in my own head but I am troubled by the fact that @Ashvazdanghe would not draw the distinction between the two. Did they mean it sarcastically and I'm not understanding the joke? Because if we're talking about menstruation, as in specifically the cyclic, monthly process of the lining being shed, then I'm afraid we have to accept that rabbits do not undergo this process. 

The size of a female womb is large and takes 3 to 7 days or even up to 10 days to shed blood. The size of a rabbit womb is much smaller and the amount of blood loss is very little, however, it does happen every 28 to 31 days (monthly). Please read the Farm Report link above. 

[The Alchemist]

Does shia collection contain any work like Kitab al-Mouzuat (Book identifying fabricated narrations) or Silsilah al-Mouzuah?

Edited September 16, 2022 by The Alchemist

[The Alchemist]

Just now, The Alchemist said:

Does shia collection contain any work like Kitab al-Mouzuat (Book identifying fabricated narrations) or Silsilah al-Mouzuah?

@Ashvazdanghe@ShiaChat Mod

[khizarr]

2 hours ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

however, it does happen every 28 to 31 days (monthly). Please read the Farm Report link above. 

Unbelievable. I will be honest, I was not expecting this from a mod. 

 

Did you read the links I shared? I mean, you can just type up "do rabbits menstruate?" in the search engine and save yourself some time. 

No, rabbits do not bleed every 28 days in some kind of fixed mammalian fashion, and if you know one that does, please take it to the vet at your earliest convenience. Menstruation occurs because when an egg is released, it goes on a trip to the uterus - where if it doesn't get fertilized by a sperm - the uterus, thereby, starts to shed its own lining. This process is triggered every month. If the egg is fertilized, no menstruation occurs as the uterus then requires the lining for the embryo's sustenance.

Female rabbits release hormones when they are ready to mate and only release an egg upon intercourse (or upon some mechanical intervention which is classified as "additional induction factors", not spontaneous ovulation); unlike human females who do release an egg spontaneously every month due to a cycle of hormones.

 

Do you now understand this simple fact of science or do I need to break it down a little bit more?

Edited September 16, 2022 by khizarr

[786:)]

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Sa‘d ibn ‘Abdallah from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Thaqafi from Ali ibn Mu‘alla from his brother, Muhammad from Durust ibn abu Mansur from Ali ibn abu Hamza from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. “When the Holy Prophet (s.a) was born he remained for days without milk. Abu Talib himself breast fed him and Allah sent milk through his nipples. It continued for several days until abu Talib found Halima al-Sa‘diya and the child was given to her”

Al Kaafi Volume 1: Hadith 27
 

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/111/27

[Abu Nur]

On 8/28/2022 at 9:26 PM, The Alchemist said:

Al Kafi v. 8, pg. 333

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَمِيلَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْحَلَبِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) يَقُولُ اخْتِلَافُ بَنِي الْعَبَّاسِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ النِّدَاءُ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ وَ خُرُوجُ الْقَائِمِ مِنَ الْمَحْتُومِ قُلْتُ وَ كَيْفَ النِّدَاءُ قَالَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوَّلَ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عَلِيّاً وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ قَالَ وَ يُنَادِي مُنَادٍ فِي آخِرِ النَّهَارِ أَلَا إِنَّ عُثْمَانَ وَ شِيعَتَهُ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ.

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Fazzaal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby who said:

I heard Abu Abdullah(asws) saying: ‘The differing of the Clan of Abbas is from the inevitable, and the Call is from the inevitable, and the coming out of Al-Qaim(asws) is from the inevitable’. I said, ‘And How would be the Call?’ He(asws) said: ‘A Caller will Call out from the sky at the beginning of the day: ‘Indeed! Ali(asws) and his(asws) Shi'tes, they are the winners’. He(asws) said: ‘And a Caller will Call out at the end of the day: ‘Indeed! Usman and his Shi'tes, they are the winners’.

 

This is a sahih hadith.

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن كالصحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (6 / 406)

Shaykh Baqir al-Behbudi: صحيح - Sahih al-Kafi (3 / 404)

[786:)]

@Alchemist check out the wonky Hadith I posted. Abu Talib could breastfeed supposedly. I know the sore losers in here will say “so what? What’s wrong with that? Is it not possible for Allah to do that?” But imagine if such hadith was found in Sunni books on Umar breastfeeding. Imagine how that would’ve been spun and poked fun at. Double standards keep some Shias (and Sunnis) from intellectually growing. Just know the Hadith corpus is compromised at large due to the political climate of the time. The Nusayris use Shia books to prove the divinity of Imam Ali—astaghfirullah. Just my two cents. I don’t really waste much time here anymore due to the insincerity of some members and the labeling I receive by being genuine in my criticism of certain aspects of modern day Shiism being born and raised in a Shia community. And I still identify as Shia politically but my deen is Islam—I guess that’s why I’m lableled. Fi Amanillah.

Edited September 16, 2022 by 786:)

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, 786:) said:

@Alchemist check out the wonky Hadith I posted. Abu Talib could breastfeed supposedly. I know the sore losers in here will say “so what? What’s wrong with that? Is it not possible for Allah to do that?” But imagine if such hadith was found in Sunni books on Umar breastfeeding. Imagine how that would’ve been spun and poked fun at. Double standards keep some Shias (and Sunnis) from intellectually growing. Just know the Hadith corpus is compromised at large due to the political climate of the time. The Nusayris use Shia books to prove the divinity of Imam Ali—astaghfirullah. Just my two cents. I don’t really waste much time here anymore due to the insincerity of some members and the labeling I receive by being genuine in my criticism of certain aspects of modern day Shiism being born and raised in a Shia community. And I still identify as Shia politically but my deen is Islam—I guess that’s why I’m lableled. Fi Amanillah.

Surely you will be not missed here either, cannot even behave as a decent muslim. I don't even call that you have brought much criticism but more of insulting.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Abu Nur

[ShiaChat Mod]

15 hours ago, khizarr said:

Unbelievable. I will be honest, I was not expecting this from a mod. 

Unbelievable. I will be honest, I was not expecting a member to be so arrogant against another member. Too bad that you cannot see that there are always two sides to an issue.  

[khizarr]

1 hour ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

Too bad that you cannot see that there are always two sides to an issue.  

Ah, ya salam, shiachat mods. Ya salam. It's just ridiculous that you ignored my entire post that broke this "issue" down to you in 15-year old terms, and you probably did realize that you messed up, yet - for some reason - you will still utter those old and so very original magical words "there are two sides to everything" once again. Habibi, menstruation is a yes or no question. Do human females have periods? Yes. Do whales have periods? No. Boom, done. This isn't some deep, profound philosophy here that would demand an exposition of two or more perspectives.

I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt. What other perspective should I look at this from? Please enlighten me.

 

[The Alchemist]

18 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This is a sahih hadith.

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن كالصحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (6 / 406)

Shaykh Baqir al-Behbudi: صحيح - Sahih al-Kafi (3 / 404)

You're probably referring to this:

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/483/483

But there is mistake somewhere. Here is scanned page from Mirat Ul Uqool about this hadith that says it is dhaeef and mursal.

 

Besides, this hadith is also termed dhaeef by Allama Qaryagdi in his exegesis of Rowdhat al-Kafi.

See this:  البضاعة المزجاة ; ج ۴  ص ۶۴

 

PS. I don't know what Allama Behbudi says about this hadith. I assume the reference mentioned in Thaqlayn.net is incorrect.

[Ibn Murtuz]

@Ashvazdanghe @ShiaChat Mod

https://animalpickings.com/do-female-rabbits-have-periods/

"Rabbits don’t menstruate because they are induced ovulators."

Sheep, Goat, Cattle, Horse ovulate too, are you guys now gonna say their meat is haram?

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 minutes ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

@Ashvazdanghe @ShiaChat Mod

https://animalpickings.com/do-female-rabbits-have-periods/

"Rabbits don’t menstruate because they are induced ovulators."

Sheep, Goat, Cattle, Horse ovulate too, are you guys now gonna say their meat is haram?

I don't get why you are so crazy about rabbit  anyway menstruation is not only reason for being haram which rabbit clearly doesn't has all attributes of Sheep, Goat, Cattle, Horse likewise having hooves & ability of doing Cud  so therefore logically  rabbit is haram but on the other hand Sheep, Goat, Cattle, Horse are Halal.

 

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According to Sayyed Al-Sistani : 

It is haraam to eat the meat of rabbit, elephant, bear, monkey, jerboa, mouse, snake, hedgehog, and crawling animals and insects.
https://www.sistani.org/english/book/49/2413/

@Mohammed-Mehdi

 

 

 

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

anyway menstruation is not only reason for being haram which rabbit

It is not haram but disliked.

And in the report of Abī Baṣīr from Abī ʿAbdillāh who said:

It was disliked to be eaten among land animals the meat of the rabbit, lizard, horse and mule, but it is not Ḥarām like the Taḥrīm of caracass, blood and the meat of the pig. Wasāʾil al-Shīʿa: Vol. 24, Pg. 112, No. 30108

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is not haram but disliked.

And in the report of Abī Baṣīr from Abī ʿAbdillāh who said:

It was disliked to be eaten among land animals the meat of the rabbit, lizard, horse and mule, but it is not Ḥarām like the Taḥrīm of caracass, blood and the meat of the pig. Wasāʾil al-Shīʿa: Vol. 24, Pg. 112, No. 30108

 

23 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

Rabbits don’t menstruate because they are induced ovulators."

Sheep, Goat, Cattle, Horse ovulate too, are you guys now gonna say their meat is haram?

Salam  Hadith maybe true anyway we can't judge just based on a single narration although it has mentioned in a reliable source likewise Wasāʾil al-Shīʿa which consensus of all shia Marjas from multiple hadiths form multiple sources besides of logical reasoning is that meat of rabbit in similar fashion of Lizard is Haram which only reason of accepting it Halal by sunnis is a narration which Anas has offered a slaughtered rabbit as a gift to prophet Muhammad (pbu) anyway hadith is vague whether prophet has eaten it or not which at end of hadith it has been mentioned that "Some of the people of knowledge disliked eating rabbit, they said that it menstruates." which obsession of Wahabists about permissibility of eating of meat of rabbit is due to their opposition to Shias  .

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(2)Chapter: What Has Been Related About Eating Rabbit(2)باب مَا جَاءَ فِي أَكْلِ الأَرْنَبِ ‏‏
Narrated Hisham b. Zaid:
"I heard Anas saying: 'Once we provoked a rabbit at Marr Az-Zahran. So the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) rushed after it, and I caught up to it and captured it. I brought it to Abu Talhah who slaughtered it with Marwah. He sent me with its legs - or its thighs - to the Prophet (ﷺ) so he could eat it.'" He (Hisham) said: "I said: 'He ate it?' He said:'He accepted it.'"

[Abu 'Eisa said:] There are narrations on this topic from Jubair, 'Ammar, Muhammad bin Safwan, and they say: Muhammad bin Saifi.

This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. This is acted upon according to the people of knowledge. They saw no harm in eating rabbit. Some of the people of knowledge disliked eating rabbit, they said that it menstruates.

حَدَّثَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو دَاوُدَ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَنَسًا، يَقُولُ أَنْفَجْنَا أَرْنَبًا بِمَرِّ الظَّهْرَانِ فَسَعَى أَصْحَابُ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خَلْفَهَا فَأَدْرَكْتُهَا فَأَخَذْتُهَا فَأَتَيْتُ بِهَا أَبَا طَلْحَةَ فَذَبَحَهَا بِمَرْوَةٍ فَبَعَثَ مَعِي بِفَخِذِهَا أَوْ بِوَرِكِهَا إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَكَلَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ أَكَلَهُ قَالَ قَبِلَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ وَعَمَّارٍ وَمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ صَفْوَانَ وَيُقَالُ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ صَيْفِيٍّ ‏.‏ وَهَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏ وَالْعَمَلُ عَلَى هَذَا عِنْدَ أَكْثَرِ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ لاَ يَرَوْنَ بِأَكْلِ الأَرْنَبِ بَأْسًا ‏.‏ وَقَدْ كَرِهَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ أَكْلَ الأَرْنَبِ وَقَالُوا إِنَّهَا تَدْمِي ‏.‏
Grade:     Sahih (Darussalam)        
Reference     : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1789
In-book reference     : Book 25, Hadith 2
English translation     : Vol. 3, Book 23, Hadith 1789

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1789 - The Book on Food - كتاب الأطعمة عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

 

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حَدَّثَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو دَاوُدَ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَنَسًا، يَقُولُ أَنْفَجْنَا أَرْنَبًا بِمَرِّ الظَّهْرَانِ فَسَعَى أَصْحَابُ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خَلْفَهَا فَأَدْرَكْتُهَا فَأَخَذْتُهَا فَأَتَيْتُ بِهَا أَبَا طَلْحَةَ فَذَبَحَهَا بِمَرْوَةٍ فَبَعَثَ مَعِي بِفَخِذِهَا أَوْ بِوَرِكِهَا إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَكَلَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ أَكَلَهُ قَالَ قَبِلَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ وَعَمَّارٍ وَمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ صَفْوَانَ وَيُقَالُ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ صَيْفِيٍّ ‏.‏ وَهَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏ وَالْعَمَلُ عَلَى هَذَا عِنْدَ أَكْثَرِ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ لاَ يَرَوْنَ بِأَكْلِ الأَرْنَبِ بَأْسًا ‏.‏ وَقَدْ كَرِهَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ أَكْلَ الأَرْنَبِ وَقَالُوا إِنَّهَا تَدْمِي ‏.‏

Narrated Hisham b. Zaid: "I heard Anas saying: 'Once we provoked a rabbit at Marr Az-Zahran. So the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) rushed after it, and I caught up to it and captured it. I brought it to Abu Talhah who slaughtered it with Marwah. He sent me with its legs - or its thighs - to the Prophet (ﷺ) so he could eat it.'" He (Hisham) said: "I said: 'He ate it?' He said: 'He accepted it.'"
[Abu 'Eisa said: ] There are narrations on this topic from Jubair, 'Ammar, Muhammad bin Safwan, and they say: Muhammad bin Saifi.
This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. This is acted upon according to the people of knowledge. They saw no harm in eating rabbit. Some of the people of knowledge disliked eating rabbit, they said that it menstruates.

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1789
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1789

 

Imam Ridha (عليه السلام) says: “Since the rabbit has blood similar to that of women [which is discharged during menstruation], its meat is haram.”[4]

[3] Sheikh Hurr Ameli, Wasailul-Shia, vol.24, pg.109.

[4] Ibid.

 

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Rabbit meat is haram because of the hadiths that have reached us from the imams (عليه السلام). In these hadiths it has been stated that eating rabbit meat is forbidden, and this is the reason why Islamic scholars have issued fatwas on its impermissibility. Three things can be concluded from these hadiths:

1- The rabbit is one of the animals that have undergone metamorphosis and that is why their meat is haram. The holy prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has said: “The monkey, pig, dog, elephant, wolf, mouse, rabbit...are all animals that have undergone metamorphosis and eating them isn't permissible.”[1]

There are other hadiths from the imams with the same theme. It has been said by one of the great Shia scholars, the “Shahid Thani”(the Second Martyr): “What is meant by these hadith is that the people who underwent metamorphosis and transformed, took the shape of these animals, [not that all of these animals today are actually people who have transformed into them], because people who undergo metamorphosis [as a punishment by Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))] last no longer than three days, dying afterwards.”[2]

The fact that the abovementioned were transformed into these animals, could be a signification that these animals have an inner impurity, or else what other reason could there be for choosing these animals? There are great chances that the reason for the meat of these animals being haram is their physical and/or spiritual impurities.

2- In other hadiths, it has been said that rabbit meat is haram because as with cats, rabbits have claws, and the meat of animals of prey [animals with claws] is haram.[3]

3- In another hadith, Imam Ridha (عليه السلام) says: “Since the rabbit has blood similar to that of women [which is discharged during menstruation], its meat is haram.”[4]

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