Methodology of Ayatollah Asif Mohseni (RA)

[The Alchemist]

Ayatollah Asif Mohseni has done laborious work of grading each narration in Bihar al-Anwar in his Masharat al-Bihar al-Anwar. He has also attempted to bring all authentic ahadith in one book i.e. Majma Ahadith Moatbar. I was wondering what is his methodology in terms of classification of hadith and what are the opinions of other scholars on his books.

[Guest Hello]

@The Alchemist 

Salaam, read this: https://iqraonline.net/book-of-intellect-and-knowledge-mujam-al-ahadith-al-mutabara-ayatullah-asif-muhsini/

[The Alchemist]

What does he mean when he says a hadith is mautbar? Does he mean Hassan, Muwathiq or Saheeh?

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, The Alchemist said:

What does he mean when he says a hadith is mautbar? Does he mean Hassan, Muwathiq or Saheeh?

Yes, a mu'tabar hadith is a hadith that is either saheeh, muwathaq or hassan 

[The Alchemist]

15 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Yes, a mu'tabar hadith is a hadith that is either saheeh, muwathaq or hassan 

Wouldn't that be confusing? Hassan is nowhere equal to a saheeh tradition. There is different ruling for each type of hadith. I guess his works only adds Saheeh narrations considering the number of narrations he has included in Majma Ahadith Mautbar (only some 12900). Had he included hassan, muwathiq and qavi narrations into it, the number of narrations would have been much bigger. Have you gone through his Bahooth fil Ilm Rijal? Perhaps, that book would make it clear what did he mean by mautbar.

[Abu_Zahra]

4 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Wouldn't that be confusing? Hassan is nowhere equal to a saheeh tradition.

Not necessarily,  essentially it means he has removed weaker narrations. It is possible that he still differentiates between the types of mu'tabar narrations in his work, I haven't checked if this is the case.

[The Alchemist]

Only one reply?

Senior members (with knowledge of hadith) are requested to help.

 

@Nader Zaveri

[The Alchemist]

Does shia collection of ahadith contain only those narrations which Asif Mohseni (رضي الله عنه) mentions in Majma Ahadith Mautbar? Overall, 12900+ narrations?! Isn't that number too small?

[The Alchemist]

Has anyone else done grading of Bihar al-Anwar?

[Al-Hussayni]

 

[Muslim2010]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:35 PM, Al-Hussayni said:

 

Who is this scholar and what is the authenticity of his opinion?

[islamicmusic]

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Who is this scholar and what is the authenticity of his opinion?

It is not a scholar. It is a CIA agent working in the USA. American regime bans Iranian, Iraqi, Yemeni etc mainstream shia tv channels and websites but they provide this guy his own tv channel. He is called Allahyari or something. He sounds like an Akhbari. He has never been to Iran but he claims that all the Maraji (Ayatollahs) except the certain Shirazi in the Islamic Republic are Kuffar and that they are busy with calling djinns or something. So, basically he is a kaffir himself. And I don't know why anyone on shiachat would quote its video.

Edited September 11, 2022 by islamicmusic

[Ashvazdanghe]

9 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

He has never been to Iran

Salam has went   went to Hawza of Qom which also he has established an office of his his sattelite channel in Qom which due to his  his office in Qom has been sealed which also he has kicked out of from Hawza of Qom.

Quote

Hassan Allahiari is a young Afghan cleric who entered the seminary of Qom and initiated learning religious sciences and after some time started the Ahl al-Bayt satellite TV channel and in  first days of initiating  of channel ,the Shia Beliefs was advertised from this channel and  office of channel as well  established in the city of Qom, but at once this network in a strange turn started insulting and blaspheming the sanctities of the Sunnis to the point where he used very vulgar and obscene words that were in no way worthy of Shia and Shiite literature about the elders of the Sunnis. that it was not possible to observe this network as a family due to the rude words used by the host and founder of this network, and by adopting this method, Hassan Allahiari was rejected by the scholars and authorities of Qom and other Shia authorities, and for this reason, the office of the network in Qom was sealed which after that Marjas of Shiites in Iran were the target of the worst insults from this pseudo-cleric, and Hassan Allahiari, after closing his network's office, rejected the opinion of great Shiite scholars regarding the obligation of obeying the religious leader, and attacked the position of the religious leader and the leader of the revolution. Ayatollah Muhaqiq Kabuli  who A Initially, he was in favor of the establishment of the network, in a statement he rejected his statements, and in this network, all the efforts of those involved in the network are to create division, differences, and religious war between Shiites and Sunnis, and at the beginning, the Wahhabi networks, which exactly follow the intentions of Allahiari among the Sunnis,   Debates were held with this cleric, but even people like Molazadeh, who is famous for his obscenity in the media, also said that because Allahiari is obscene, we will not debate with him.

حسن اللهیاری کیست؟ (توضیحاتی در باره شبکه فتنه گر اهل بیت)-تبلیغ اسلام و ولایت در آغوش آمریکا و انگلیس (anhar.ir)

https://portal.anhar.ir/node/13632#gsc.tab=0

[Al-Hussayni]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:11 PM, islamicmusic said:

It is not a scholar. It is a CIA agent working in the USA. American regime bans Iranian, Iraqi, Yemeni etc mainstream shia tv channels and websites but they provide this guy his own tv channel. He is called Allahyari or something. He sounds like an Akhbari. He has never been to Iran but he claims that all the Maraji (Ayatollahs) except the certain Shirazi in the Islamic Republic are Kuffar and that they are busy with calling djinns or something. So, basically he is a kaffir himself. And I don't know why anyone on shiachat would quote its video.

That is nonsensical claim and has no proof whatsoever. He infact has a very high calible of knowledge; just listen to some of his recent in detail lectures in Urdu which go in depth in terms of citing proofs from the Quran and Sunnah of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Although having said that, he may have been somewhat hot headed in the past in some his lectures and the way he deals with certain subjects. I would advise you to watch some of his recent lectures on his urdu channel and also on his English channel. Sure, people may agree with some of his stances in terms of shia-shia issues, but you will certainly watching his stuff against the Mukhalifeen. An example:

 

[Al-Hussayni]

On 9/11/2022 at 4:26 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Who is this scholar and what is the authenticity of his opinion?

It is also not his opinion. He is literally just reading the opinion of Asif Mohseni from his own book.

[islamicmusic]

Here the filth called Allahyari is replying to a man who says Maraji are the deputies of Imam Mahdi and he calls Ayatollahs kaffir and yet you say this filth is serving shia islam:

Well, it seems Allahyari's American sponsored tv channel in Persian did not get any followers. So now this time, wearing a tie, with a "different" look of his, he adresses Arabs and Pakistanis. Well, he has always sworn at the Ayatollahs in Qum, calling them djin worshippers. Now, he aims to swear and belittle the Ayatollahs in Najaf.

I am just glad that Najaf, Jonoub, etc. became so much prominent in the Muslim World that these fools are now attacking them as well. So, it is good to know that Qom is not alone. Hizbullahis are spreading.

Edited September 13, 2022 by islamicmusic

[Al-Hussayni]

On 9/13/2022 at 1:12 AM, islamicmusic said:

Here the filth called Allahyari is replying to a man who says Maraji are the deputies of Imam Mahdi and he calls Ayatollahs kaffir and yet you say this filth is serving shia islam:

Well, it seems Allahyari's American sponsored tv channel in Persian did not get any followers. So now this time, wearing a tie, with a "different" look of his, he adresses Arabs and Pakistanis. Well, he has always sworn at the Ayatollahs in Qum, calling them djin worshippers. Now, he aims to swear and belittle the Ayatollahs in Najaf.

I am just glad that Najaf, Jonoub, etc. became so much prominent in the Muslim World that these fools are now attacking them as well. So, it is good to know that Qom is not alone. Hizbullahis are spreading.

Nothing but pure emotional slander! Well there is no doubt that Sh Allahyari has proven without the deviation of Wilayat ul faqih (Which has no basis in Quran and Sunnah) in his numerous detailed videos in various languages; most recently in English and Urdu. Actually he has a very big following, his videos have been getting alot of views and he needs to be given more of a platform. There is no doubt about the wealth of knowledge he has and the Shia community should really utilise him.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:13 AM, Al-Hussayni said:

That is nonsensical claim and has no proof whatsoever. He infact has a very high calible of knowledge; just listen to some of his recent in detail lectures in Urdu which go in depth in terms of citing proofs from the Quran and Sunnah of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Although having said that, he may have been somewhat hot headed in the past in some his lectures and the way he deals with certain subjects. I would advise you to watch some of his recent lectures on his urdu channel and also on his English channel. Sure, people may agree with some of his stances in terms of shia-shia issues, but you will certainly watching his stuff against the Mukhalifeen. An example:

 

Depth? 

Intermediate-level (Sutūh) hawza students are taught all of that, and much more. Let alone dars kharij level students, to whom he's nowhere equal. 

Very sorry brother, but merely browbeating a disciple of Muhammad Ali Mirza in an online discussion doesn't prove his deep knowledge. Even for the topic at hand, there are scholars like Maulana Aftab Jawadi of Pakistan (if you want Urdu content on Imamate, debunking the aspersions cast by the mukhalifīn) or Ayatollah Murtada Qazwini ,based in Karbala (if you are looking for content in Farsi) who have dealt with the subject far more persuasively. The former has refuted both Maulana Ishaq and Mirza, and the latter an entire array of nasibi hoodlums, the most famous being Mollah Zadeh of Mostaghileh/Vesal Farsi channel. 

I have seen his discussion with Ali ul-Ahsan Naqvi on mutah too. It was unnecessarily long, winding and even incoherent. Here again there are Shia debaters who have done a much better job than him. 

Add his takfir of major scholars and his appalling manner. Allahyari is hardly the role model he's made out to be. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Al-Hussayni said:

Sh Allahyari has proven without the deviation of Wilayat ul faqih

Salam he even  could not finish first year of basic levels in Hawza of Qom which all of what he has talked against Wilayat ul faqih is based on his affection from dugs especially cocaine which highly respected Marja  Ayatollah Mohaqiq Kabuli has disassociated from him due to his low level of knowledge & slandering all Majas by him based on his illusion that he is higher in any Marja also in similar fashion he has has insulted to all  Afghan martyrs of defenders of shrines by calling them as deviants & followers of Dajjal which in similar fashion of Nasibis he clearly has called Imam Khamenei as Dajjal which his shia followers are followers of Dajjal according to Nasibi/Wahabi doctrine against Shias .

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, Al-Hussayni said:

Allahyari has proven without the deviation

 

 

 

[The Alchemist]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:35 PM, Al-Hussayni said:

 

Ayatollah Sheikh Asif Mohseni's (رضي الله عنه) methodology is not misleading in any way. He wrote a commentary on Bihar al-Anwar. Why did he comment on those traditions found in other sources.

Besides, if you look at his magnum opus, Majma Ahadith Mautbar, you would find each narration supported with a number of sources. So, something is missing in Bihar al-Anwar, you can find that in Majma Ahadith Mautbar.

[Al-Hussayni]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:59 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Depth? 

Intermediate-level (Sutūh) hawza students are taught all of that, and much more. Let alone dars kharij level students, to whom he's nowhere equal. 

Very sorry brother, but merely browbeating a disciple of Muhammad Ali Mirza in an online discussion doesn't prove his deep knowledge. Even for the topic at hand, there are scholars like Maulana Aftab Jawadi of Pakistan (if you want Urdu content on Imamate, debunking the aspersions cast by the mukhalifīn) or Ayatollah Murtada Qazwini ,based in Karbala (if you are looking for content in Farsi) who have dealt with the subject far more persuasively. The former has refuted both Maulana Ishaq and Mirza, and the latter an entire array of nasibi hoodlums, the most famous being Mollah Zadeh of Mostaghileh/Vesal Farsi channel. 

I have seen his discussion with Ali ul-Ahsan Naqvi on mutah too. It was unnecessarily long, winding and even incoherent. Here again there are Shia debaters who have done a much better job than him. 

Add his takfir of major scholars and his appalling manner. Allahyari is hardly the role model he's made out to be. 

Many of the Hawza students are infact barely taught about Basic of shia hadith. So many of the topics that are taught in Hawza infact have nothing to do with Quran & Sunnah whatsoever. He's certainly amongst the very learned in the Shia world today and much more than many of of the individuals of the Hawza.

When you say unnecessarily long,  what do you mean exactly? Surely such detailed explanations are required! Otherwise then you'd say he barely answers in any detail.

He has even infact challenged all the scholars of the Sunni world to a debate in a series of multiple sessions yet no one has had the courage to step up because they know that they'd not stand a chance. 

Far more persuasively?  My friend you only have to look at those who get in touch with Allahyari and call him during his show to see how persuasive he actually is. Not to mention the amount of people who have converted to Tashayyu because of his lectures. Just refer to the many comments that people make in his videos..

And that's not even discrediting the work of the ones you mentioned either. They are also doing a great in terms of defending the Shia faith.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Al-Hussayni

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:50 AM, Al-Hussayni said:

Many of the Hawza students are infact barely taught about Basic of shia hadith. So many of the topics that are taught in Hawza infact have nothing to do with Quran & Sunnah whatsoever. He's certainly amongst the very learned in the Shia world today and much more than many of of the individuals of the Hawza.

When you say unnecessarily long,  what do you mean exactly? Surely such detailed explanations are required! Otherwise then you'd say he barely answers in any detail.

He has even infact challenged all the scholars of the Sunni world to a debate in a series of multiple sessions yet no one has had the courage to step up because they know that they'd not stand a chance. 

Far more persuasively?  My friend you only have to look at those who get in touch with Allahyari and call him during his show to see how persuasive he actually is. Not to mention the amount of people who have converted to Tashayyu because of his lectures. Just refer to the many comments that people make in his videos..

And that's not even discrediting the work of the ones you mentioned either. They are also doing a great in terms of defending the Shia faith.

Nope. Anyone who has even completed sath level courses will be able to tell you that he knows just as much as a run of the mill hawza graduate. 

I say 'unnecessarily long' because he spent more than half an hour on irrelevant details, such as quoting excerpts Ibn Katheer or Suyuti on why the "istimta' " in the verse of mutah means temporary marriage, only to shoot himself in the foot. The point is that a skilled Sunni debater will turn back and say that when did we ever deny that the verse was revealed about mutah? All we say is that it's now abrogated. All the Sunni debater would have to do is to ask him to quote the excerpt in full for his argument to be destroyed. What would he do then to make up for the half an hour or so that he's already wasted and lost his audience's attention? Even laymen can come up with better arguments. There are brothers like the late Toyin Olawuyi (rh) who have done great work here too, and Allahyari here is also no novelty. 

Yes, I stand by my opinion that he's not a good debater or ambassador for the madhab, and his style is abusive and off putting. If I were a Sunni I would never consider his dawah convincing. If the standard is to convert people to Tashayyu, then both Shaikh Zakzaky in Nigeria and Shaikh Hisham Salim in Palestine (both ex-Sunnis converted to Shi'ism) have converted more people, entire swathes of populations, towns after towns and villages after villages to Tashayyu, but Allahyari will probably do their takfir too because they're Rahbaris. Is he really concerned about promoting Tashayyu? Or is there some other covert agenda that he's  promoting? 

The point remains that if we're choosing someone to represent the school, atleast let's take a look at his credentials. 

[The Alchemist]

I randomly found this which asnwers OP:

Quote

Preliminary Points

[...]

Al-Muhsini makes it clear that he will not include a Hadith with weak chain except very rarely when it serves a purpose. He will be sure to also include a disclaimer about its weakness whenever he does so. The main aim after all is to include the narrations reliable by their chains, those that are termed Sahih, Hasan, Muwathaq and Qawi. And if a Matn is conflicting with the Qur’an or the intellect he promises to point this out and discuss it, and if it is contrary to a verified Sunnah or has other contradictory narrations to contend against, then detailed elaboration and resolution is left to the study of Fiqh, although he might allude to this at times.

But this is his methodology in Majma Ahadith Mautbar. Could someone confirm whether he applies the same methodology to other works of him like Ahadith Mautbar fi Jamiya Ahadith Shia & Misharat al-Bihar Anwar?

[Ashvazdanghe]

book of مشرعة بحار الأنوار Mashraʿat Biḥār al-Anwār

https://lib.eshia.ir/11772/1/3

 According to a qoute from  Shaykh Aṣif Muḥsinī

Quote

For this reason, this poor man started to write this margin and the foundation of this "مشرعه" Mashraʿa so that the average people of knowledge know that in "Bihar"; The sea of Allameh Majlisi, may Allah be pleased with him, although it is  seas of light, there is pollutions that harms its drinker, and there are wrong substances that should be avoided, and suspicious objects that make to stop  obligatory  "

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4518/7308/91092/مَشرَعَةُ-بحارالانوار

Criticizing Methodologhy of Mashraʿat Biḥār al-Anwār

1. The basis of the validation of hadiths: As mentioned above, the validation of hadiths based on trustworthiness is contrary to the famous muhaddiths and Shiite jurists, and anyone who has a little research in their works will be aware of this fact. In addition to that, this is against the wisdom of accepting news; Because in the opinion of intellectuals, the document and the speaker are not relevant, and the criterion is a kind of certainty about the correctness of the news. In the creation of this certainty, any factor can be involved, just as if a news is narrated by a trusted person, but due to some reasons, it is not worthy of acceptance, he should think about it and make further investigations. They are considered necessary. In this area, more cannot be said and for further investigation, refer to the sources presented on the previous pages.

  One of the effects of the above-mentioned bad basis is the widespread devaluing of Shia traditions, in such a way that not only should a large part of Shia traditions be ignored, but even the traditions that have a reliable document cannot be trusted; Because if we accept that, for example, 95% of the narrations of Bihar al-Anwar are not trustworthy and have no authority, we implicitly accept that tampering with Shia narrations has been very widespread, then what is the guarantee that the remaining percentage has not been tampered with? Is it acceptable that after thousands and several hundreds of years, we start refining the hadiths with a sense of responsibility, while the imams ((عليه السلام).) and their companions do not have any sense of responsibility towards the hadiths, and let the hands of forgers, superstitious and corrupt people be open to allow forgery and recitation of traditions ? The talk in this field is much more than can be included in an article, therefore, we will be satisfied with this amount. Many of the hadiths that have been rejected by the respected author are in comparison to the verses of the Qur'an, authentic Sunnah, are or reliable hadiths or   they have a proof of reason. In countless cases, a theme, although with documents that are considered weak in the term, is repeated enough to provide some kind of certainty. Is it permissible to make such a deal with Shia traditions? It is appropriate to mention the words of Vahid Behbahani, who writes to such people:

Quote

 "ثمّ اعلم: أنه قد شاع بعد صاحبی المعالم و المدارک أنهم یطرحون أخبارنا المتعتبرة التی اعتبرها فقهاؤنا القدماء، بل والمتأخرون أیضا - کما بینته وأثبته فی التعلیقة - طرحا کثیرا بسبب أنهم لایعتبرون من الأمارات الرّجالیة سوی التوثیق، وقلیل من أسباب الحسن.

 وبسبب ذلک اختل أوضاع فقههم وفتاواهم، وصار بناؤهم علی عدم ثبوت المسائل الفقهیة غالبا. وذلک فاسد، لأنّ أسباب التثبّت الظنیة موجودة فی غایة الکثرة، وحصول الظنّ القوی منها لایتأمّل فیه.

 ومرّ اعتبار الظنّ فی التثبّت کاعتباره فی ثبوت العدالة من دون تفاوت. وهذه الأسباب اعتبرها الفقهاء فی کتبهم الاستدلالیة، وأهل الرجال فی علم الرجال، فلا بدّ من معرفتها وملاحظتها، لئلا یطرح الأخبار المعتبرة الکثیرة، ولایخالف طریقة فقهاء الشیعه القدماء والمتأخرین منهم، ولا یبقی فی التحیر والتردّد فی معظم المسائل الفقهیة. "

Know that after the owner of the knowledges and the owner of the documents, it was spread that our authentic news, which were considered authentic by the ancient jurists and also by their later ones, they rejected these because they do not consider authentic except for confirmation and a little of good reasons. And because of this, the status of jurisprudence and its fatwa was disturbed, and most of the jurisprudential issues were not considered fixed, and that is not true, because there are many reasons for identifying guess, and strong guess can be obtained from them without any doubt.

  And it was mentioned that the guess resulting from investigation is the same as the guess resulting from justice, and these reasons for guess have been considered valid by the jurists in their argumentative books and the religious scholars in their science. Therefore, it is necessary to know and pay attention to these guess reasons so that they do not deny and reject many authentic reports, and do not oppose the methods of Shia jurists, both early and late, and do not fall into confusion and doubt in most jurisprudential issues.

 

Muhaqqiq Hilli in preface of  book of "معتبر " has written :

Quote

 "افرط الحشویه فی العمل بخبر الواحد حتی انقادوا لکل خبر وما فطنوا ما تحته من التناقض. فان من جملة الاخبار قول النبی(ص) "ستکثر بعدی القالَة علی" وقول الصادق(ع) "انّ لکل رجل منا رجل یکذب علیه" واقتصر بعض عن هذا الافراط فقال: کل سلیم السند یعمل به وما علم انّ الکاذب قد یصدق والفاسق قد یصدق؛ ولم یتنّبه انّ ذلک طعن فی علماء الشیعه وقدح فی المذهب اذ لا مصنّف الا وهو قد یعمل بخبر المجروح کما یعمل بخبر الواحد المعوّل وافرط آخرون فی طرف ردّ الخبر حتی احال استعماله عقلاً ونقلاً واقتصر آخرون فلم یرالعقل مانعاً. لکن الشرع لم یأذن فی العمل به وکلّ هذه الاقوال منحرفة عن السنن والتوسّط اقرب. فما قبّله الاصحاب اودلّت القرائن علی صحّته عمل به وما اعرض الاصحاب عنه اوشذّ یجب اطراحه... "

Hashviye have taken the extreme path in acting according to the single news; To the extent that they listen to any news and do not pay attention to the fact that accepting any news (unconditionally) is contradictory; This is because the Prophet said, "After me, those who lie to me will increase." And Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said: "There is an individual for each of us [Imams], who lies on him[Imam]."

  And a number of people have come short of this extreme and have said: Any hadith whose document is sound is accepted. And this group did not know that a liar sometimes tells the truth and the wicked sometimes is honest. They did not know that this method (i.e. accepting only the narration with a sound document) causes insults to the Shia scholars and weakens the religion; Because no author can be found; except that sometimes   acts preffered news   t in similar fashio of  fair news.

  And some of them have gone to extremes in rejecting the news, in such a way that they do not consider it permissible to use any news, and from the point of view of reason and transmission, they consider it impossible to act on the news correctly, and the other group, reason prevents action. They do not know about the news, but they are of the opinion that Sharia did not allow  to be acted upon the news. All these views are detours from the right path and the middle limit is right. Therefore, what the Companions have accepted, or the evidence and signs that indicate their correctness, should be followed. And what the Companions have turned away from it or what is Shaz, one should refrain from acting  on  it.

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4518/7308/91092/مَشرَعَةُ-بحارالانوار