Jordan Peterson's Message To The Muslim World

[Northwest]

13 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

No, islamic patriarchy is not the red pill. 

@mahmood8726 In your view, then, how does it differ? (Please try to be specific and offer more than a variation of “It’s Islamic, theirs is Christian” or “‘brown’ vs. ‘white’”...) Some other people here seem to exaggerate the differences because they want “white” and/or non-Muslim women to revolt against their anti-Islamic husbands, so they use “feminist” or “pro-woman” rhetoric while selling a similar substitute in practice. My perception could be wrong, however, and by no means am I opposed to patriarchy, be it Islamic or otherwise.

[mahmood8726]

2 hours ago, Northwest said:

@mahmood8726 In your view, then, how does it differ? (Please try to be specific and offer more than a variation of “It’s Islamic, theirs is Christian” or “‘brown’ vs. ‘white’”...) Some other people here seem to exaggerate the differences because they want “white” and/or non-Muslim women to revolt against their anti-Islamic husbands, so they use “feminist” or “pro-woman” rhetoric while selling a similar substitute in practice. My perception could be wrong, however, and by no means am I opposed to patriarchy, be it Islamic or otherwise.

The red pill movment being pushed in the west, more specifically by the manosphere, has its issues, it goes into extreemes. 

They have an overt obsession over women having to be traditional and men being the sole breadwinner of the house. They fallaciously think that a marriage with 2 incomes will mostly fail, which is true to a certain extent, but they seem to have no nuance on this, atleast the ones I watched years ago such as andrew tate, the 2 podcast guys and this eastern European guy with black glasses(forgot their names).

In Islam, more specifically shia islam, traditional marriages are encouraged, it is the best way to have a marriage where the man is the sole breadwinner of the house. However, by no means is it obligatory on a woman to be traditional. In shia islam, it's up to the husband and wife to divide house chores and the husband should be grateful If the wife decided to be traditional, because she's under no obligation to do so, this has been reiterated a lot of times by people like sayed khamenaei for example. It's not the end of the world if your wife is earning money and focuses a little bit on her career. 

 

Another problem they have is they talk constantly about women having to marry young and not go for a career at all. Which again, Islam encourages women to focus on marriage instead of a career, but it's by no means the end of the world if a woman is older in the marriage and decided to chase a career, this mentality that she's screwed if she does so and her chances of finding a husband are slim to none and she will very likley live with cats in her 30s is exaggerating reality, the statistics might look more and more bleak, but these people need to touch grass. 

 

The red pill also has no issues with marital r*pe, in islam it's a crime, yes the angels curse the woman if she refuses to have s*x for an invalid reason, but it's still a sin in islam to force yourself on her. The red pill don't seem to have an issue with it. Although some do, so it doesn't apply to the entire manosphere. 

 

Another problem is they have this an exaggerated beleif on polygamy, where they have 0 issues with hookup culture for men because men are diffirent. This should be obvious why islam is against this, especially the pump and dump mentality.

 

Another problem is their beleif in men having total be absolutely stoic, which again has some merits in islam, men should be stoic unlike their wives to a certain extent, but there is also limits, if you cry infront of your wife for something extreem in your life, she's not going to automatically see it as a turnoff, this is ridicilous. Men should just try and not cry as much as their wives or "open up" a lot and it should be fine

 

You might have noticed a pattern, the redpill movment takes things that are promoted by islam, but to the extreeme most of the time.

 

They also have a habit of twisting statistics like the feminists do. One example is on male suicide. Feminists use that statistic to promote male emasculation and to tell men to not be stoic at all or barely be stoic and just "open up", which is catastrophic advice. The red pill uses that statistic to claim that they're all commiting suicide because men are very opressed. When in reality women actually attempt suicide more than men, they just fail more at commiting suicide than men because they don't muster the courage (or rather stupidity and recklessness) to shoot themselves with a gun. 

 

The red pill basically has this obsession over statistics and "human nature" and it leads to this toxic game of opression Olympics between the red pill and feminists on which gender has it worst, not realizing there is truth and nonsense in both of their ideologies. 

Point is, the red pill focuses on "hard facts and human nature" and see the world as if they're a cold machine and feminists focus too much on virtue signaling to the point that their ideology just doesn't fit reality. 

 

 

Edited March 21 by mahmood8726

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 3/21/2025 at 2:55 AM, Northwest said:

In its context, can you give one or more examples of justifiable assertiveness by women—that orthodox Islam would also approve of?

Fadak. 

Sayyida Zaynab's role in and after Karbala. 

On 3/21/2025 at 2:55 AM, Northwest said:

But isn’t Islamic patriarchy similar to the kind that is being advocated by some anti-feminist Western men? (In particular, men having total or near-total control over women’s assets, including income, as well as marriage and divorce...)

No. They are not the same. 

The wife's personal property, mobile or immobile, and her disposable income are entirely her own, and the husband has no say in how she spends them. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

19 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

The red pill movment being pushed in the west, more specifically by the manosphere, has its issues, it goes into extreemes

It is a fallout of third wave feminism and the incel phenomenon. 

[Eddie Mecca]

On 9/5/2022 at 6:49 AM, Northwest said:

I think that Muslims should stop relying on tropes to criticise traditionalist white Christians while siding with liberal-globalist “Jewish” NGOs

Islam is the religion or way of the middle path...so it can share commonalities with left-wing and right-wing modalities and simultaneously opposes both...similarly, socialism and capitalism are both capable with Islam in certain areas or spheres...Islam's flexibility leaves the door open for adaptability of foreign ideas, inventions etc....or adoption of methods or never-before-seen civic protocols or new governing techniques, practices etc. albeit within an Islamic framework 

Edited March 25 by Eddie Mecca

[Northwest]

1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Islam is the religion or way of the middle path...so it can share commonalities with left-wing and right-wing modalities and simultaneously opposes both...

@Eddie Mecca As policies multiculturalism and open borders are not intrinsic to Islam. I see little of either in certain Arab states. (To be fair, I think that many “Muslim” migrants come to the West for reasons other than Islam.)

1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

similarly, socialism and capitalism are both capable with Islam in certain areas or spheres...

Socialism and capitalism are distinct ideologies, not methods, so they are not compatible with Islam.

1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Islam's flexibility leaves the door open for adaptability of foreign ideas, inventions etc....

Historically this was the case, but not so much today. If anything I see the opposite: a lot of xenophobic opposition to anything and everything that comes from the “white man.”

[Northwest]

On 3/22/2025 at 12:01 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

No. They are not the same. 

The wife's personal property, mobile or immobile, and her disposable income are entirely her own, and the husband has no say in how she spends them. 

@AbdusSibtayn Do you think that allowing wives financial discretion has in any way contributed to today’s low fertility-rates? After all, women who have access to cash are more likely to exercise independence in other ways as well, perhaps in part by delaying or foregoing marriage.

On 3/21/2025 at 4:46 PM, mahmood8726 said:

The red pill movement being pushed in the west...has its issues, it goes into extremes.

@mahmood8726 But as you admitted, the “red pill” is not exactly inconsistent with Islam, so “extremism” is a rather arbitrary barometer. Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that some Muslims are envious of non-Muslim traditionalists, so they encourage female rebellion among the latter.

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 minutes ago, Northwest said:

Do you think that allowing wives financial discretion has in any way contributed to today’s low fertility-rates? After all, women who have access to cash are more likely to exercise independence in other ways as well, perhaps in part by delaying or foregoing marriage.

Hi financial discretion of wives has no correlation with fertility-rate which in similar fashion having access to cash by women has no correlation with delaying or foregoing marriage  which these barriers in marriage mostly relates to Socials or capitalism even communism which sees women just as work force  not column of making a family which all them want women a part of small gears of their system as cheaper workforce than men not as maine column of house & family.

Edited March 25 by Ashvazdanghe

[Eddie Mecca]

18 minutes ago, Northwest said:

Socialism and capitalism are distinct ideologies, not methods, so they are not compatible with Islam.

Islam is compatible with socialism both ideologically and methodologically...same can be said of capitalism...for example, Abu Bakr introduced a guaranteed minimum standard of income which granted each man, woman and child ten dirhams annually (this was later increased to twenty dirhams)...Abū Dharr al-Ghifārī (Allah be pleased with him) is seen by some academics as the forefather of so-called Islamic socialism...this is because he protested against the accumulation of wealth by the Umayyad ruling class during Uthman's reign and stressed the equal redistribution of wealth...both ideologies (socialism and Islam) attempt to create societies where resources and wealth are evenly distributed and dispersed and no one is left behind... socialism is a kinder and nobler ideology because it has loftier aims and objectives...socialism attempts to meet the needs of society rather than merely generating profit for the individual or private corporation...when wealth is spread out evenly, and basic necessities are met, then humanity can focus on its primary aim and purpose...namely, spiritual evolution and ascendency...you keep getting hung up on modern-day labels and you keep catapulting contemporary constructs back into time...viewing society as a simple collective predates Zionist NGOs and Jewish philanthropies...it goes back to the time of Noah   

[Eddie Mecca]

51 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

socialism is a kinder and nobler ideology because it has loftier aims and objectives

NOTE: I meant to say here that socialism is kinder and nobler than capitalism...not Islam

[mahmood8726]

2 hours ago, Northwest said:

Socialism and capitalism are distinct ideologies, not methods, so they are not compatible with Islam.

islam is more similar to Socialism, to the point I've seen some people claim "islamic is Socialism but with god" 

2 hours ago, Northwest said:

Historically this was the case, but not so much today. If anything I see the opposite: a lot of xenophobic opposition to anything and everything that comes from the “white man.”

In the Arab world??? Not a chance, most of them love imitating westerners and want to live like them.

If there is xenophobia in muslim countries, its towards brown people to the point where most of the islamic world the notion of having more pale/white skin is seen as a prestigious and a nice thing, rather than having a tan/browner skin like in the west, it's the polar opposite. 

Edited March 25 by mahmood8726

[mahmood8726]

10 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

NOTE: I meant to say here that socialism is kinder and nobler than capitalism...not Islam

Islam has more similarities to socialism than with capitalism from what ive seen. I've seen knowledgeable mumins actually claim "socialism is Islam but without god" and the mumins i know who claimed this, are not leftists by any means. 

[Eddie Mecca]

16 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

In the Arab world??? Not a chance, most of them love imitating westerners and want to live like them.

If there is xenophobia in muslim countries, its towards brown people to the point where most of the islamic world the notion of having more pale/white skin is seen as a prestigious and a nice thing, rather than having a tan/browner skin like in the west, it's the polar opposite. 

You took the words right out of my mouth...I was about to comment and say something similar 

16 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

islam is more similar to Socialism, to the point I've seen some people claim "islamic is Socialism but with god" 

Rather they should say, "socialism is Islam without God" because Islam came first...Islam obviously predates socialism 

Edited March 25 by Eddie Mecca

[mahmood8726]

2 hours ago, Northwest said:

@mahmood8726 But as you admitted, the “red pill” is not exactly inconsistent with Islam, so “extremism” is a rather arbitrary barometer. Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that some Muslims are envious of non-Muslim traditionalists, so they encourage female rebellion among the latter.

from what I typed, it should be evident that the red pill is not compatible with islam at all, when it goes to these extreemes (which is not vague I even gave examples), it outright violates basic islamic rulings such as the pump and dump mentality for example. It's just that our definitions of traditionalism differ to a certain extent. 

 

I'll give you another example, the red pill, or some of them atleast, don't want women to be able to divorce them, this is mainly due to catholic influence, you've seen it with this red pill girl who is an athletic person, she advocated for not allowing women to divorce and not being allowed to vote because of millitary conscription laws and she's not the only one advocating for this. This is incompatible with islam, although it's discouraged to divorce, women are well beyond their rights to divorce and I don't remember islam having a this weird mentality on voting. 

Its like with femenism, Islam has many things that are in femenism, but it's by no means compatible with femenism because femenism goes into the other extreeme for its solutions towards helping women. 

Edited March 25 by mahmood8726

[mahmood8726]

16 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

from what I typed, it should be evident that the red pill is not compatible with islam at all, when it goes to these extreemes (which is not vague I even gave examples), it outright violates basic islamic rulings such as the pump and dump mentality for example. It's just that our definitions of traditionalism differ to a certain extent. 

 

I'll give you another example, the red pill, or some of them atleast, don't want women to be able to divorce them, this is mainly due to catholic influence, you've seen it with this red pill girl who is an athletic person, she advocated for not allowing women to divorce and not being allowed to vote because of millitary conscription laws and she's not the only one advocating for this. This is incompatible with islam, although it's discouraged to divorce, women are well beyond their rights to divorce and I don't remember islam having a this weird mentality on voting. 

Its like with femenism, Islam has many things that are in femenism, but it's by no means compatible with femenism because femenism goes into the other extreeme for its solutions towards helping women. 

@Northwest i finished editing the comment, incase you're interested because I see you saw it before I finished editing it, I added another example and more clarification at the bottom. 

[Northwest]

On 3/25/2025 at 7:21 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi financial discretion of wives has no correlation with fertility-rate which in similar fashion having access to cash by women has no correlation with delaying or foregoing marriage

@Ashvazdanghe Then why are fertility-rates so low not only in the postmodern West, but also in Iran? Births per women there have barely meet replacement-levels since the late 1990s. Why do many women in Iran no longer wish to bear children?

[Northwest]

On 3/25/2025 at 9:27 AM, mahmood8726 said:

In the Arab world??? Not a chance, most of them love imitating westerners and want to live like them.

@mahmood8726 I think, based on years of observation, that the Arab world maintains a schizophrenic attitude toward Westerners and/or the West. On the one hand it actively courts Western investment and technology, yet on the other it foments xenophobic attitudes toward the “white” (and “brown”) Other. I think there is a strong inferiority-complex at work, besides racial attitudes. The Arab world both envies and loathes the “white” West at the same time: being dependent on the West and lacking a sense of agency, yet at once detesting a seeming necessity. (One can see a similar phenomenon at work in the Sunni/Salafi preachers who excoriate the West yet insist that they, despite forming a majority among Muslims, need Western aid to fight the “Shias.”) The following observations seem to bolster my contention:

On 3/25/2025 at 9:27 AM, mahmood8726 said:

If there is xenophobia in muslim countries, its towards brown people to the point where most of the islamic world the notion of having more pale/white skin is seen as a prestigious and a nice thing, rather than having a tan/browner skin like in the west, it's the polar opposite.

^ In addition, perhaps they dislike the fact that the West, historically, has tried to be “whiter” than the Arabs, given that they, like the onetime Western imperialists, associated whiteness with the ruling caste and its contributions. So they fact that now they are dependent on “inferior” whites rather than “true” whites (Arabs) galls them. (At any rate this would be consonant with anti-black racialism as well.) I could be wrong about all this, however.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 3/25/2025 at 11:33 AM, Northwest said:

Do you think that allowing wives financial discretion has in any way contributed to today’s low fertility-rates? After all, women who have access to cash are more likely to exercise independence in other ways as well, perhaps in part by delaying or foregoing marriage.

I don't know. 

[mahmood8726]

59 minutes ago, Northwest said:

@mahmood8726 I think, based on years of observation, that the Arab world maintains a schizophrenic attitude toward Westerners and/or the West.

Trust me they don't, I've been there and many of them even worship Western culture. 

59 minutes ago, Northwest said:

On the one hand it actively courts Western investment and technology, yet on the other it foments xenophobic attitudes toward the “white” (and “brown”) Other.

Towards brown yes, towards white no. Arabs don't even know what "white" means. They think they're white and they're the same ethnicity as europeans but just diffirent culture. Especially in the Levant. 

59 minutes ago, Northwest said:

I think there is a strong inferiority-complex at work, besides racial attitudes. The Arab world both envies and loathes the “white” West at the same time: being dependent on the West and lacking a sense of agency, yet at once detesting a seeming necessity. (One can see a similar phenomenon at work in the Sunni/Salafi preachers who excoriate the West yet insist that they, despite forming a majority among Muslims, need Western aid to fight the “Shias.”) The following observations seem to bolster my contention:

I think you're confusing things here. Even with the salafi preachers. Their issue is cultural, as in they hate the immorality taking place in the west, such as open lgbt, hookup culture, alcoholism, etc... Given the west is the culture that secularised the world and turned the world more godless and less religious and more careless about taking religions seriously, it's not a suprise. 

 

As a matter of fact, many scholars say that the system of the west is the anti christ, the dajjal and I can see why they say this. 

 

 

The inferiority complex comes from the technological advancements of the west, that's about it, they dislike that a hedonistic culture developed these very useful technologies and now they control the world.  If Muslim Spain took over the world and made the entire world Muslim, you would see many muslims supporting it, just like they support the ottoman empire despite it being run by turks and not arabs. 

59 minutes ago, Northwest said:

^ In addition, perhaps they dislike the fact that the West, historically, has tried to be “whiter” than the Arabs, given that they, like the onetime Western imperialists, associated whiteness with the ruling caste and its contributions. So they fact that now they are dependent on “inferior” whites rather than “true” whites (Arabs) galls them. (At any rate this would be consonant with anti-black racialism as well.) I could be wrong about all this, however.

Yeah I will be honest this is too much of a stretch, as I said in the Arab world they don't even have a concept of "white", they just call westerners "foreigners" because of their diffirent culture. 

Edited April 1 by mahmood8726

[Northwest]

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

Trust me they don't, I've been there and many of them even worship Western culture.

@mahmood8726 Your knowledge of the region is better than mine, but I still suspect that the “worship,” while real, is very selective. I will admit that I have never been to the MENA, yet I am indirectly familiar with the Arab diaspora in Europe and the States. There is a serious yet unacknowledged problem with Arab criminality, much of it linked to Wahhabi–Salafi terrorism and anti-white racism. Of course, the degeneracy of the postmodern West, itself intolerable, makes the situation even worse, but neither side is willing to acknowledge its faults.

In my experience, many people tend to be rather shallow and hollow. They are driven by elemental instincts and complexes. Both Western and Eastern (pseudo-)“culture,” be it postmodern or otherwise, is fundamentally suicidal, based on a worship of death and destruction. This is the essence of many ideologies, creeds, and movements, yet it is rooted in irrational, primordial drives—i.e., the sex, the will to power, fight-or-flight. It is also fatalistic. There is a lot in common between Western materialism and Wahhabi–Salafi extremism.

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

Towards brown yes, towards white no. Arabs don't even know what "white" means. They think they're white and they're the same ethnicity as europeans but just diffirent culture. Especially in the Levant.

You could be right, but this is the Internet, so I don’t know whether you’re telling the truth. (You don’t have to trust me either.)

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

I think you're confusing things here. Even with the salafi preachers. Their issue is cultural, as in they hate the immorality taking place in the west, such as open lgbt, hookup culture, alcoholism, etc... Given the west is the culture that secularised the world and turned the world more godless and less religious and more careless about taking religions seriously, it's not a suprise.

This is in fact one of the very reasons as to why I became interested in Islam and eventually found my way here. (Remarkably, I say this as a fairly “secular”—by orthodox religious standards—but disaffected individual with very strong spiritual leanings.) Having grown up in the U.S. and relocated to Europe, I have seen so much ugliness—on all levels—that I feel suffocated, at least on a “spiritual” level. Entire societies are literally “drugged”: unbalanced in so many ways.

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

As a matter of fact, many scholars say that the system of the west is the anti christ, the dajjal and I can see why they say this.

To be honest, I think this is true of mankind’s history. Today is but the nadir of a very low career. The so-called “Western” disease is now globalised, too.

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

The inferiority complex comes from the technological advancements of the west, that's about it, they dislike that a hedonistic culture developed these very useful technologies and now they control the world.

I have often wondered whether in fact technological advancement and social degeneration work synergistically, at least to some extent. The former does seem to exacerbate some of the latter.

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

If Muslim Spain took over the world and made the entire world Muslim, you would see many muslims supporting it, just like they support the ottoman empire despite it being run by turks and not arabs.

I don’t know. Muslim history is as filled with racism, sectarianism, and ethnocentrism as that of any other group. (As a Shia, you obviously know this, given the history of Sunni domination.)

3 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

Yeah I will be honest this is too much of a stretch, as I said in the Arab world they don't even have a concept of "white", they just call westerners "foreigners" because of their diffirent culture. 

^ We both have different levels and kinds of experience, so I am not saying that yours is entirely wrong, but I also have to go by my own, taking into account its shortcomings as well.

Edited April 1 by Northwest

[Northwest]

On 4/1/2025 at 11:16 PM, Northwest said:

In my experience, many people tend to be rather shallow and hollow. They are driven by elemental instincts and complexes. Both Western and Eastern (pseudo-)“culture,” be it postmodern or otherwise, is fundamentally suicidal, based on a worship of death and destruction. This is the essence of many ideologies, creeds, and movements, yet it is rooted in irrational, primordial drives—i.e., the sex, the will to power, fight-or-flight. It is also fatalistic. There is a lot in common between Western materialism and Wahhabi–Salafi extremism.

^ @mahmood8726 Did you take offence? (I probably did not express myself very well.) When I said this, I was not referring to Islam per se, but to modernity and its consequences, both of which are evident worldwide. Islam was not always like this, but a lot of it has been affected. At any rate, I would be interested in hearing your feedback—along with anyone else’s, for that matter.

[mahmood8726]

7 hours ago, Northwest said:

^ @mahmood8726 Did you take offence? (I probably did not express myself very well.) When I said this, I was not referring to Islam per se, but to modernity and its consequences, both of which are evident worldwide. Islam was not always like this, but a lot of it has been affected. At any rate, I would be interested in hearing your feedback—along with anyone else’s, for that matter.

No i was just busy with stuff. 

[mahmood8726]

On 4/1/2025 at 5:16 PM, Northwest said:

I don’t know. Muslim history is as filled with racism, sectarianism, and ethnocentrism as that of any other group. (As a Shia, you obviously know this, given the history of Sunni domination.)

Still wont change that muslims will follow a muslim power if it was technologically advanced. If anything, their racism towards the spanish will be less than that towards the turks, because turks originated from central asia, whilst the people of the levant and north africa regularly interracted with europeans and saw them as the same people as them. This concept of "white people" would have been foreign to them and it still is in much of the arab world. 

[mahmood8726]

On 4/1/2025 at 5:16 PM, Northwest said:

@mahmood8726 Your knowledge of the region is better than mine, but I still suspect that the “worship,” while real, is very selective. I will admit that I have never been to the MENA, yet I am indirectly familiar with the Arab diaspora in Europe and the States. There is a serious yet unacknowledged problem with Arab criminality, much of it linked to Wahhabi–Salafi terrorism and anti-white racism. Of course, the degeneracy of the postmodern West, itself intolerable, makes the situation even worse, but neither side is willing to acknowledge its faults.

Salafi extreemism, maybe, but anti white racism, as I said, not really. Unless youre talking about some arabs in the west who grew up as leftists and might have a small tendency to be "anti white", but other than that not really. Unless youre conflicting anti american with anti white? But thats hardly anti white as americans could be non white and many terror attacks didn't really discriminate. 

 

Many of these terrorist groups like isis had 0 issues indoctrinating and recruiting white europeans too, you remeber these white europeans with long hair joining isis back in 2014-15? Some of them even went high in their ranks.

On 4/1/2025 at 5:16 PM, Northwest said:

In my experience, many people tend to be rather shallow and hollow. They are driven by elemental instincts and complexes. Both Western and Eastern (pseudo-)“culture,” be it postmodern or otherwise, is fundamentally suicidal, based on a worship of death and destruction. This is the essence of many ideologies, creeds, and movements, yet it is rooted in irrational, primordial drives—i.e., the sex, the will to power, fight-or-flight. It is also fatalistic. There is a lot in common between Western materialism and Wahhabi–Salafi extremism.

I honestly dont see the similarity to be fair. 

 

Edited April 12 by mahmood8726