Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

US Supreme Court allows public school teachers to lead prayers

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Moderators
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Salam maybe you can talk with manager(s) in order to you can lead prayer for all Muslim girls  from all classes in an specific class or room .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam maybe you can talk with manager(s) in order to you can lead prayer for all Muslim girls  from all classes in an specific class or room .

The state where I live is a "right to work" state, which means exactly the opposite of what it sounds like.  It means I don't have the protection of a workers' union and I can be fired for any or no reason without notice.  

I'm not going to ask. 

But if some Christian teacher starts, I might follow their lead and facilitate student-led prayers. 

In general though, as a follower of a minority religion, this is a very bad thing.  It means my own children are likely to be peer pressured into praying to Jesus.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, notme said:

The state where I live is a "right to work" state, which means exactly the opposite of what it sounds like.  It means I don't have the protection of a workers' union and I can be fired for any or no reason without notice.  

I'm not going to ask. 

But if some Christian teacher starts, I might follow their lead and facilitate student-led prayers. 

In general though, as a follower of a minority religion, this is a very bad thing.  It means my own children are likely to be peer pressured into praying to Jesus.  

If it won't put your life or health at risk in a significant way, I think you should do it. I used to teach at a public school, before I changed careers. If I was still teaching there, I would do it. If you are going to do it, you need to be sure that these are Muslim students, they are doing it voluntarily, and it is appropriate, i.e. it is at a time for Salat. I'd be interested to see what would happen. It might not go the way you think. It also might go that way, or something you never thought would happen may happen. You never know until you try. 

I have done Salat, sometimes by myself, sometimes with my kids at many public places in the US. I have prayed at the airport gate (more than once), in the middle of Disneyland, at many public parks, in the Mall, at the Michigan Supreme Court, etc. I always had in the back of my mind that something bad might happen. Nothing bad ever happened. I think if more muslims would just pray wherever they happen to be at Salat time (Muslims who live in Western Countries), people would get used to seeing it and they would know what it is and wouldn't be afraid of it. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Does anyone know whether teachers in US are required to recite the flag pledge? I don't mind standing respectfully, but if I'm expected to recite I'm going to have a problem with that.  I don't swear to nations or symbols and this is both. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
9 hours ago, notme said:

Does anyone know whether teachers in US are required to recite the flag pledge? I don't mind standing respectfully, but if I'm expected to recite I'm going to have a problem with that.  I don't swear to nations or symbols and this is both. 

Since a student cannot be compelled to recite the pledge of allegiance to the American flag (if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical or other grounds), I would think you don't need to recite the pledge. I would tell them to 'please stand at attention and behave' then walk to the back, as if you are watching them. They wouldn't see that you did not recite the pledge. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
12 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I have done Salat, sometimes by myself, sometimes with my kids at many public places in the US. I have prayed at the airport gate (more than once), in the middle of Disneyland, at many public parks, in the Mall, at the Michigan Supreme Court, etc.

The place where prayers are performed must fulfil seven conditions.

The first condition: it must be permissible to use [i.e. it must not be usurped], based on obligatory precaution.

Ruling 854. Performing prayers on property whose benefit belongs to someone else without the consent of the one who benefits from the property is ruled as being the same as performing prayers on usurped property. For example, if in a rented house the landlord or someone else performs prayers there without the consent of the tenant, then based on obligatory precaution his prayers are invalid.

Ruling 864. Performing prayers on someone else’s property is permitted only when the owner clearly gives his consent to do so, or he says something that indicates he has given permission – such as giving someone his consent to sit and sleep on his property, by which it can be understood that he has given permission for prayers to be performed there as well – or, when one derives confidence by some other way that the owner consents.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/5418/

 

Even though these are public areas, are you certain that your prayers there are valid?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, EiE said:

The place where prayers are performed must fulfil seven conditions.

The first condition: it must be permissible to use [i.e. it must not be usurped], based on obligatory precaution.

Ruling 854. Performing prayers on property whose benefit belongs to someone else without the consent of the one who benefits from the property is ruled as being the same as performing prayers on usurped property. For example, if in a rented house the landlord or someone else performs prayers there without the consent of the tenant, then based on obligatory precaution his prayers are invalid.

Ruling 864. Performing prayers on someone else’s property is permitted only when the owner clearly gives his consent to do so, or he says something that indicates he has given permission – such as giving someone his consent to sit and sleep on his property, by which it can be understood that he has given permission for prayers to be performed there as well – or, when one derives confidence by some other way that the owner consents.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/5418/

 

Even though these are public areas, are you certain that your prayers there are valid?

These are public areas. You don't need permission to pray in a public area. You need permission if it is private property and not used for any public purposes, like a private residence or private business. Although places like Disneyland and Malls are private businesses, i.e. they are not public lands, permission is implied because they give customers permission to gather there, walk there, exercise there, picnic there, etc. So unless Salat is specifically prohibited by them, which it isn't (I checked, lol), it is allowed. This is the ruling of all marjaa that I know of. The above is talking about private residences or private businesses or private lands  which are not generally used for public gatherings.  Also, in the US, government buildings are public property, and thus public spaces. They are owned by the citizens of the country and the state collectively. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

@EiE to add to what @Abu Hadi said, the US has non-discrimination laws regarding privately owned businesses which are open to the public.  If a place is open to the public and you aren't interfering with their business (praying in front of the cashier station? lol) they can't stop you. At worst, if they specifically prohibit loitering, you could be asked to leave on grounds of loitering.

Unless otherwise specified, in places open to the public, there is implicit permission to pray. In publicly owned areas such as parks or libraries, if you are a taxpayer or dependent of a taxpayer, you partially own it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

 

Quote

Sheikh tusi(رضي الله عنه) by his document from  imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) 

Sheikh Tusi in Tahzeeb narrates from Sama'a bin Mehran that I asked Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) about the Imamate of women, he said: There is no problem (Tusi, Bita: 3/31).

»عن المرأة تؤمّ النساء؟ فقال لا باس به»33

From a woman who leads women praying? Hazrat said: There is no problem.

A woman does not lead for men. There is no problem with his imamate for women, in this case she should not stand in front of them, but stand in the middle and pray with them.

حر عاملی، 1396: 5/408Hur Ameli

»لاتؤم المرئة الرجال و تصلی بالنساء و لا تتقدمهن، تقوم وسطا بینهن و یصلین بصلاتها. «19

The meaning of "Tawm Wasta"" تقوم وسطا" is to stand in the middle of the first row.

19. دعائم الاسلام، ج 152/1; مستدرک الوسائل، ج 468/6. Mustadrak al Wasai'l v6  p 486

 

Quote

In another hadith, Kulaini narrates from Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام).) that if there was no man to lead women, one of the women should stand in front and in the middle, and the other women should stand on her right and left hand, so that the Imam is in the middle. (Ibid).

https://jh.isca.ac.ir/article_530.html

https://www.farsnews.ir/news/13950723000774/امامت-زن-برای-زن-در-نماز-جماعت-از-منظر-مذاهب-فقهی

 

Sunni viewpoint

Quote

Sunni scholars have mentioned the following two narrations as proof of this view:

1. Ayesha, Umm Salma and Ata have narrated from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)):

"»إن المرأة تؤمّ النساء" 28

A woman can lead for women.

2. Dar Qutani has narrated from Umm Varqa that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) allowed her to lead the women of her household.

"اذن لها ان تؤمّ نساء دارها"

Umm Varqa, nicknamed "Shaheedah", was one of the reciters and teachers of the Qur'an in the era of the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) sometimes visited her with his companions and called her "martyrشهیده".

When the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) played the war song, Umm Varqa said to the Prophet: Allow me to come to war at your feet and treat the wounded and nurse the sick, maybe Allah will grant me martyrdom. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said to him:

"قرّى فى بیتک فانّ الله یرزقک الشهاده" 29

Stay in your house, God will make martyrdom your destiny.

It is stated in Al-Asabahالاصابه: Umm Warqa asked the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) for permission to have a muezzin call the call to prayer in her house and she would lead the prayer in congregation.

The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) gave her permission. And in another tradition, it is stated: The Prophet himself appointed a muezzin for her. 30

3. Shia scholars have also referred to the same narration of Umm Varaqah and mentioned:

Because the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) allowed Umm Varqa to lead the congregation of women in her house, and appointed a muezzin for her, the leadership of women is permissible for women. 31

https://jh.isca.ac.ir/article_530.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 6/30/2022 at 3:55 AM, notme said:

I somewhat get what this right- wing  meme is trying to insinuate. 

But why would a Muslim teacher lead non-Muslim students in prayer? They don't understand this. 

Wassalam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
23 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I somewhat get what this right- wing  meme is trying to insinuate. 

But why would a Muslim teacher lead non-Muslim students in prayer? They don't understand this. 

It's not a right wing meme. Right wingers want evangelical theocracy. 

Maybe the students are Muslim.  Why are you assuming they aren't? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
9 minutes ago, notme said:

It's not a right wing meme. Right wingers want evangelical theocracy. 

Well, the 'occupy Democrats' written in small font below the main caption suggested so, as also the words "this will all be over very quickly". The impression that it gave was conservative Christians being worried about Muslim teachers insidiously proselytizing among students, bringing an end to the dominant Christian demographic. 

12 minutes ago, notme said:

Maybe the students are Muslim.  Why are you assuming they aren't? 

This was based on my initial assumption. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

I have no problem with prayer in school.  So long as individuals aren't forced to pray, or forced to pray a certain way.  

That being said, I fully agree that if one person is allowed to lead a prayer a certain way, then anyone should be allowed to lead a prayer a certain way.  Just like any other right protected by the law.  That same right must be equally protected for all.  If you can't deal with someone else, then you don't deserve it yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
20 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

But why would a Muslim teacher lead non-Muslim students in prayer? They don't understand thi

Salam at least non-Muslim students will try some muslim rituals which will have posotive impact on them which in similar fashion few religious christian  schools have have a day for meeting a mosque as "A Mosque with Open Doors" activity which it  only  has been  limited to few Christian schools which by this program ordinary common  schools & students can have a chance of receiving  posotive understanding from Islam even they don't understand it .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...