The Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade

[Guest Window]

I personally am ecstatic. Your thoughts? 

[Uni Student]

Abortion in the context of American politics has always been something I felt conflicted about.

On one hand, pro-life groups often place ridiculously strict bans on abortion, such as banning the termination of epcotic pregnancies, which is wrong in Islam

 On the other hand, if I was to support pro-choice groups, I would be supporting the abortion of hundreds of thousands of second and third trimester babies (10-11% of abortions occur after 13 weeks) which is also wrong. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Uni Student

[Guest Mullah_Sadra]

1 hour ago, Uni Student said:

 On the other hand, if I was to support pro-choice groups, I would be supporting the abortion of hundreds of thousands of second and third trimester babies (10-11% of abortions occur after 13 weeks) which is also wrong. 

You would be supporting most of the other abortions as well, not just 10-11%, because most occur before 13 weeks. It is nearly unanimous consensus in Islamic law that to conduct an abortion, even before 4 months (when the soul enters to fetus), without the necessity of preserving the mother's life, is wrong. The vast majority of abortions in the US are performed for reasons other than preserving the mother's life, regardless of what trimester they occur in. 

[Guest Mullah_Sadra]

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

As muslims, this is mostly a non issue for us. Abortion outside of the allowed window, (see Abortion topics here for more info) has always been haram and will always be haram, no matter what the Supreme Court says or doesn't say. So the fact that it is now illegal in more cases than it was before, is not that relevant for us. It will be interesting to see how this 'shakes out' in the country, as to many this is a very big deal, just not to me. Get out the popcorn and get ready for a good show. There will be massive protests coming in certain states and cities, I can pretty much guarantee that. Hopefully no violence. I am hoping that, but I expect some violence at least, hopefully minimal. 

It may be a non-issue for us on a personal level, but it has certainly had consequences on the broader societies in which we live. We don't live in a bubble, and when societies in which we live openly adopt immoral policies (such as the blanket legalization of abortion), it will have effects on us all. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) brings tribulations on entire societies when they stray into immorality and oppression. Just look at this country now. I'm not saying that it's our individual faults, because as practicing Muslims we oppose 99% of immorality and injustice, but in a sense we also end up bearing the costs of it. 

[Guest June 24]

Like br Abu Hadi I dont really care about this issue that much. But I hope the effects will be that people will be more careful about sleeping around. 

[Shaheed786]

Real change has to come at a societal level, but overall the ruling is a good development. 

[ShiaChat Mod]

The Supreme Court ruling is simply saying that the Federal Government is returning the issue of abortion to each state to decide for itself.

Immediately after the ruling, Missouri Attorney General tweeted that Missouri has banned all abortions. 

 

 

[notme]

Women in Texas have already been arrested and prosecuted for miscarriage....

 

I am opposed to abortion in general, as I believe it to be the taking of a  human life, but now states can criminalize saving a woman's life. I do believe, as is appropriate according to Islam, that there are some situations in which abortion is necessary.  

Also, I don't trust politicians to make medical decisions on my or anyone else's behalf. 

 

In states like Texas and Missouri, what is the penalty for a man who causes an unwanted pregnancy? 

[Guest Abdul]

11 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

As muslims, this is mostly a non issue for us. Abortion outside of the allowed window, (see Abortion topics here for more info) has always been haram and will always be haram,

Which window are you referring to? As far as I know, all the maraja consider abortion haram even if the baby is 1 hour old so there is no window or timeframe where you can do an abortion except under certain circumstances where the women's life is in danger.

[notme]

42 minutes ago, Guest Abdul said:

Which window are you referring to? As far as I know, all the maraja consider abortion haram even if the baby is 1 hour old so there is no window or timeframe where you can do an abortion except under certain circumstances where the women's life is in danger.

 

It's not allowed unless the woman's life is in danger or she will be put into unbearable hardship, but before 4 months it isn't considered killing a person.  

As I recall, even after 4 months is permitted in the case of medical necessity.  

[Uni Student]

1 hour ago, Guest Abdul said:

Which window are you referring to? As far as I know, all the maraja consider abortion haram even if the baby is 1 hour old so there is no window or timeframe where you can do an abortion except under certain circumstances where the women's life is in danger.

 

No definitely not. Life does not begin at conception. Abortion is allowed within the first three months in the case where it would harm the mother. I believe there is disagreement in the case of a rape some marjas allow it and i believe others don’t. All abortions are haram after the first trimester.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Uni Student

[Uni Student]

47 minutes ago, notme said:

As I recall, even after 4 months is permitted in the case of medical necessity.  

Unfortunately, according to ayatollah Sistani, there is no justification for abortion after 3 months, even in the case where the mothers life is at risk. Not something I entirely agree with but that’s the fatwa

Question: Is a mother allowed to abort the feotus, if she does not want it while the soul has not yet entered it and there is no serious danger to the mother’s life?

Answer: She is not allowed to do that, except if the continuation of the pregnancy would considerably harm her health or put her in an unbearable difficulty, then it is permissible before the soul enters the feoutus (i.e. the fourth month).

Edited June 25, 2022 by Uni Student

[SoRoUsH]

It makes me quite sad and disappointed to see how Shia Muslims parrot the talking points of right-wing fascists/Republicans in America and get "ecstatic" as authoritarianism not-so-slowly-anymore becomes accepted.

It's a sad day when Shia Muslims are on the same side as white supremacists, fascists, Nazis, and bigots. 

You're cheering them on now, until the day they take your rights away; and if things continue as they are, that day will come sooner than you expect. 

I don't plan to debate or discuss this topic.

Wassalam

[Guest Abdul]

5 hours ago, notme said:

It's not allowed unless the woman's life is in danger or she will be put into unbearable hardship, but before 4 months it isn't considered killing a person.  

As I recall, even after 4 months is permitted in the case of medical necessity.  

Which Marja do you follow that says you can do an abortion and it isn't considered killing? I'm honestly curious because all the scholars I follow which follow different maraja say abortion is like killing someone even if you do it immediately.

4 hours ago, Uni Student said:

No definitely not. Life does not begin at conception. Abortion is allowed within the first three months in the case where it would harm the mother. I believe there is disagreement in the case of a rape some marjas allow it and i believe others don’t. All abortions are haram after the first trimester.

Yes, some maraja allow it for special circumstances which is in my comment. But there is no timeframe for doing it as a choice, it is not permissible.

4 hours ago, Uni Student said:

Unfortunately, according to ayatollah Sistani, there is no justification for abortion after 3 months, even in the case where the mothers life is at risk. Not something I entirely agree with but that’s the fatwa

Question: Is a mother allowed to abort the feotus, if she does not want it while the soul has not yet entered it and there is no serious danger to the mother’s life?

Answer: She is not allowed to do that, except if the continuation of the pregnancy would considerably harm her health or put her in an unbearable difficulty, then it is permissible before the soul enters the feoutus (i.e. the fourth month).

The Sayed is talking about a woman who did an abortion after 5 weeks and he said it's not allowed. 

[Abu Hadi]

On 6/24/2022 at 5:38 PM, notme said:

Women in Texas have already been arrested and prosecuted for miscarriage....

 

I am opposed to abortion in general, as I believe it to be the taking of a  human life, but now states can criminalize saving a woman's life. I do believe, as is appropriate according to Islam, that there are some situations in which abortion is necessary.  

Also, I don't trust politicians to make medical decisions on my or anyone else's behalf. 

 

In states like Texas and Missouri, what is the penalty for a man who causes an unwanted pregnancy? 

So if they arrest women for miscarriages, this is obviously wrong, horrible, and against Islam. At the same time, if I'm not mistaken, I think this was only 1 case. I'm not sure of the status of this case at this point. 

The problem may not be the law, but how it's enforced. We know that in the US, poor people and minorities are dealt with more harshly by the justice system. They don't have the same 'rights' as the rich and powerful. This is mainly because of a legacy of racism and a justice system run by 'hired gun' lawyers. The more money you have, the better lawyer you can get and the more 'rights' you have. The less money you have, the less 'rights' you have. In the US, rich people can get away with murder. Poor people spend long amounts of time in prison for traffic tickets or other minor offenses. I don't think that has anything to do specifically with abortion, except in a few number of cases. 

Now if states start prosecuting women for abortion, of course it will be poor women who don't have the option of going out of state that will be prosecuted. I haven't seen this happening yet, but if it does, my opinion might change on 'not caring' about this issue. 

[Abu Hadi]

9 hours ago, Guest Abdul said:

Which window are you referring to? As far as I know, all the maraja consider abortion haram even if the baby is 1 hour old so there is no window or timeframe where you can do an abortion except under certain circumstances where the women's life is in danger.

According to Sayyid Fadallah((رضي الله عنه)) and other marjaa, before the fetus clings to the womb of the uterus, ending the pregnancy is allowed. This 'window' is from conception to approx 6 days after conception

https://www.nichd.nih.gov/newsroom/releases/embryo#:~:text=Specifically%2C the researchers found that,the wall of the uterus.

So medications like RU-486 also called the 'morning after' pill are allowed according to this fatwa. Abortion after this point is also allowed in certain cases, see below. 

http://english.bayynat.org/FiqhLaws/Fiqh_abortionlegitimacy .htm

In accordance to the view of the late Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah: Abortion is prohibited in Islam starting from the stage in which the ovum is fertilized and becomes stuck to the wall of the womb, since at this stage the life of the fetus starts....

Edited June 25, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Hadi]

While I agree with this decision in the abstract, in the real world this decision is nothing to celebrate. Here's why.

There is no legal clarity about what constitutes 'abortion' and who can or cannot be prosecuted. It all depends on where you live and the record of the state or county prosecutor. 

For example, in the State where I live, Michigan, the State attorney general said she will not prosecute abortion even though there is a 1931 law in Michigan banning abortion which was nullified by the Roe decision but is now in effect. So 

While the State AG said she will not prosecute, no such statement was made by local prosecutors. So it is still possible to be prosecuted at the local level and there is no clarity as to what is an 'abortion'. So, for example, a women with a high risk pregnancy in which the doctor terminates the pregnancy due to extreme health risk of the mother may or may not be prosecuted. The doctor and the patient could be prosecuted and go to prison. That is why doctors in many counties in Michigan with 'activist' (Trump supporting) prosecutors are saying they will no longer be accepting patients with high risk pregnancies. They don't want to possibly go to prison or lose their license. So what will happen to these women ? Noone knows. The wealthy ones can go to other parts of the state (Wayne and Oakland counties) and rent a hotel room for the course of their pregnancy and deliver there. The poor ones are SOL. 

Also, we know that the mothers most likely to be prosecuted and go to prison are the poor and minority ones, who can't afford good lawyers. So this decision is no reason to celebrate anything. This is a really bad time to be a women with a high risk pregnancy, in areas where you may be prosecuted, and a bad time for Doctors in those areas. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help them. 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[AbdusSibtayn]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

While I agree with this decision in the abstract, in the real world this decision is nothing to celebrate. Here's why.

There is no legal clarity about what constitutes 'abortion' and who can or cannot be prosecuted. It all depends on where you live and the record of the state or county prosecutor. 

For example, in the State where I live, Michigan, the State attorney general said she will not prosecute abortion even though there is a 1931 law in Michigan banning abortion which was nullified by the Roe decision but is now in effect. So 

While the State AG said she will not prosecute, no such statement was made by local prosecutors. So it is still possible to be prosecuted at the local level and there is no clarity as to what is an 'abortion'. So, for example, a women with a high risk pregnancy in which the doctor terminates the pregnancy due to extreme health risk of the mother may or may not be prosecuted. The doctor and the patient could be prosecuted and go to prison. That is why doctors in many counties in Michigan with 'activist' (Trump supporting) prosecutors are saying they will no longer be accepting patients with high risk pregnancies. They don't want to possibly go to prison or lose their license. So what will happen to these women ? Noone knows. The wealthy ones can go to other parts of the state (Wayne and Oakland counties) and rent a hotel room for the course of their pregnancy and deliver there. The poor ones are SOL. 

Also, we know that the mothers most likely to be prosecuted and go to prison are the poor and minority ones, who can't afford good lawyers. So this decision is no reason to celebrate anything. This is a really bad time to be a women with a high risk pregnancy, in areas where you may be prosecuted, and a bad time for Doctors in those areas. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help them. 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Jazakallah. 

I also don't see anything worth celebrating in the verdict. Besides the legal loopholes that have been mentioned above, the verdict will do very little to change public morality that has been moulded by decades of 'free sex' discourse. That can't be undone with the stroke of a pen. Change has to come from a societal level, if it has to be real change. 

Let us not get confused and obfuscated about our own political and legal position on the issue, and begin to echo the right wing's position uncritically. 

[Reza]

13 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It's a sad day when Shia Muslims are on the same side as white supremacists, fascists, Nazis, and bigots. 

There are millions of conservative Americans who aren’t any of these things. You’re just throwing around inflammatory terms to divide large sectors of the country who have a different view. That’s why the country is as polarized as it is. 

13 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I don't plan to debate or discuss this topic.

Then you probably shouldn’t have posted to begin with. 

[notme]

I wonder if states that outlaw abortion will see an increase in homosexual activity, which has zero possibility of producing an unwanted pregnancy. 

I know the middle school aged kids are open to the idea, for when they are older.  

[Reza]

5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

While I agree with this decision in the abstract, in the real world this decision is nothing to celebrate.

I agree with this statement.

Simply because it will increase political polarization and distract public attention away from more serious issues, of which there are many.

After decades of the status quo, and the political exploitation of it by all sides, you wonder, why now?

[Dubilex]

15 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It makes me quite sad and disappointed to see how Shia Muslims parrot the talking points of right-wing fascists/Republicans in America and get "ecstatic" as authoritarianism not-so-slowly-anymore becomes accepted.

It's a sad day when Shia Muslims are on the same side as white supremacists, fascists, Nazis, and bigots. 

You're cheering them on now, until the day they take your rights away; and if things continue as they are, that day will come sooner than you expect. 

I don't plan to debate or discuss this topic.

 

Wassalam

 

 

 

 

And yet here you are parroting the talking points of the atheist LGBTQ movement and TikTok liberals. You're really projecting. If you believe so strongly in abortion and woke ideology, then Islam isn't for you. You're free to leave.

As for my own thoughts on this, I don't live in the US. But nonetheless, I am happy to see that there is a victory for all of us who are believers, regardless if you're muslim, christian or any other religion. Most religions out there condemns abortion. I do hope that with this victory, muslims in the US, and the west in general, will do more to fight against abortion and the LGBTQ indoctrination that is penetrating our society. As Elon Musk put it, it's a 'woke mind virus'

Edited June 25, 2022 by Dubilex

[Hameedeh]

On 6/24/2022 at 5:26 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

The Supreme Court ruling is simply saying that the Federal Government is returning the issue of abortion to each state to decide for itself.

Exactly. After the overturning of Roe v Wade, Kansas will be the first state voting on abortion, on August 2. Since the Kansas State Constitution currently protects the right to an abortion, a high YES vote on August 2 would ban abortion in the state of Kansas. 

Quote

A "yes" vote on the "Value Them Both" Amendment would remove the state's current abortion protection from the state constitution.

A "no" vote would maintain the legal precedent established in Hodes & Nauser v. Schmidt (2019) that there is a legal right to abortions in the Kansas Bill of Rights, keeping abortion legal in Kansas.

https://www.kmbc.com/article/kansas-abortion-rights-post-roe-value-them-both-amendment-vote-august/40406898

[Hameedeh]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:38 AM, notme said:

I wonder if states that outlaw abortion will see an increase in homosexual activity, which has zero possibility of producing an unwanted pregnancy. 

In the Kansas City metropolitan area, urologists have seen a dramatic increase in men seeking vasectomy. The number that a local news channel mentioned was 400% increase. 

[Hameedeh]

1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

In the Kansas City metropolitan area, urologists have seen a dramatic increase in men seeking vasectomy. The number that a local news channel mentioned was 400% increase. 

The television station updated it. 

Kansas City urologist says vasectomy consults have increased by 900% since Roe v. Wade decision

[Abu Hadi]

On 6/25/2022 at 2:01 PM, Reza said:

I agree with this statement.

Simply because it will increase political polarization and distract public attention away from more serious issues, of which there are many.

After decades of the status quo, and the political exploitation of it by all sides, you wonder, why now?

Why now is because it is possible now, whereas it wasn't possible before. You have a Supreme Court that is reliably majority right wing. That hasn't been the case for many decades. Thru a weird confluence of circumstances that is very rare, Trump got the chance to put 3 Justices on the Supreme Court, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett. That's 3 out of 9. There were 2 already there Thomas and Alito, who were right wing. So that is 5 out of 9 (the majority) who were reliable right wing votes. If those 5 vote as a block, which they have been doing over and over again, that's all you need. Its actually most of the time 6 out of 9 because Roberts usually, but not always, votes with the right wing. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[coldcow]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:50 PM, Uni Student said:

On one hand, pro-life groups often place ridiculously strict bans on abortion, such as banning the termination of epcotic pregnancies, which is wrong in Islam

This isn't true.  There was a version of a law while it was drafted that didn't account for ectopic pregnancy.  That draft has been updated and this no longer exists in the law.  However the pro-abortion crowd and media seized on it and continue to parrot it as if it's fact.  

On 6/24/2022 at 4:56 PM, Guest June 24 said:

Like br Abu Hadi I dont really care about this issue that much. But I hope the effects will be that people will be more careful about sleeping around. 

I doubt it'll decrease how often people sleep around.  However, it will hopefully encourage them to use better birth control.  THere has already been a huge increase in desire for IUDs, and other birth control.  And this is a good thing.  It'll eventually, hopefully, make people more responsible, and even if abortion remains legal everywhere, it'll make it a seldom used treatment for rare cases of genetic anomalies, threats to the mother's life, or rape/incest.  

On 6/24/2022 at 6:38 PM, notme said:

Women in Texas have already been arrested and prosecuted for miscarriage....

Do you have any links to a woman getting actually prosecuted for a true miscarriage?  Like not just being charged, but actually prosecuted?

On 6/24/2022 at 6:38 PM, notme said:

In states like Texas and Missouri, what is the penalty for a man who causes an unwanted pregnancy? 

Yes, they're forced to pay child support for that child till they're 18.  This is actually a good point to play devil's advocate.  A woman can get out of a pregnancy if she feels she isn't ready to be a mother, financially or otherwise, by aborting.  But a man can't.  I get that it's a woman's body, and this isn't an Islamic view at all, but if a man tells her "I don't want the baby, I'm not supporting it, you can abort it or take care if it all by yourself," then why can she force him to still pay child support?

On 6/24/2022 at 11:27 PM, SoRoUsH said:

It makes me quite sad and disappointed to see how Shia Muslims parrot the talking points of right-wing fascists/Republicans in America and get "ecstatic" as authoritarianism not-so-slowly-anymore becomes accepted.

It's a sad day when Shia Muslims are on the same side as white supremacists, fascists, Nazis, and bigots. 

You're cheering them on now, until the day they take your rights away; and if things continue as they are, that day will come sooner than you expect. 

I don't plan to debate or discuss this topic.

This is ridiculous.  You're taking an entire group of people and reducing them down to a small faction.  Let's be realistic here, the majority of conservatives are good people, and many of them are Christian, and many of those Christians have ethical and moral views that align far better with Islam than the left wing liberals.  

The only reason Muslims don't better align with conservatives in this country is because after 9/11 the neo-cons took a majority hold of the Republican party and started portraying Muslims as an enemy.  

Also pretty weak sauce to come throw down an opinion like that and run away not willing to debate.  

On 6/25/2022 at 11:38 AM, notme said:

I wonder if states that outlaw abortion will see an increase in homosexual activity, which has zero possibility of producing an unwanted pregnancy. 

I know the middle school aged kids are open to the idea, for when they are older.  

I doubt it.  Middle school kids are "open to the idea" because pop culture and the media and celebrities are making it seem as though it's perfectly normal to have sexual relations with anyone.  But there's also so much free and easy access to sexual content and young people of both genders are so open to it, that I doubt kids will resort to it much. 

 

There are certain Muslim countries where homosexual activity is actually quite rampant.  Both among men and women, because it's just so much easier to meet with someone of the same gender, than it is to sneak around and meet someone of the opposite.  I know a girl in Saudi who has told me some very disappointing things that she's seen/heard about.  

[notme]

4 hours ago, coldcow said:

Yes, they're forced to pay child support for that child till they're 18. 

That isn't penalty, that's natural consequences.  

4 hours ago, coldcow said:

if a man tells her "I don't want the baby, I'm not supporting it, you can abort it or take care if it all by yourself," then why can she force him to still pay child support?

He should've thought about that before he dropped his pants.  If he had lowered his gaze it never would've happened. 

[coldcow]

12 hours ago, notme said:

That isn't penalty, that's natural consequences.  

He should've thought about that before he dropped his pants.  If he had lowered his gaze it never would've happened. 

Sure, he should've thought about that.  But so should the woman.  But she can just say she doesn't want it and get it aborted.  He has no recourse.  I'm speaking from a non-Islamic perspective here.  Seems like a double standard.  If we're all about equality now, then men should be able to get out of it too.  Again,  I don't condone it.  But it's a reality.

[notme]

1 hour ago, coldcow said:

Sure, he should've thought about that.  But so should the woman.  But she can just say she doesn't want it and get it aborted.  He has no recourse.  I'm speaking from a non-Islamic perspective here.  Seems like a double standard.  If we're all about equality now, then men should be able to get out of it too.  Again,  I don't condone it.  But it's a reality.

It is an interesting legal question.  I'm pretty sure in some states he would have a claim.  It wouldn't make sense that women have to get their husband's permission to get tubal ligation, but not abortion.  

[coldcow]

2 hours ago, notme said:

It is an interesting legal question.  I'm pretty sure in some states he would have a claim.  It wouldn't make sense that women have to get their husband's permission to get tubal ligation, but not abortion.  

Don't think there's a legal requirement anywhere for a spouse to approve of a woman's tubal ligation.  Are you aware of any states that require this currently?  I think spousal consent for abortion also isn't a thing.  Unless there's a new law requiring it since RvW was repealed.  Is that a new law somewhere?

I know some doctors require consent for an abortion from the spouse.  But that makes a bit more sense if you think about it.  That's his child too.  But I don't think that's a legal requirement.  Could be wrong though.

[Abu Hadi]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:49 PM, coldcow said:

This isn't true.  There was a version of a law while it was drafted that didn't account for ectopic pregnancy.  That draft has been updated and this no longer exists in the law.  However the pro-abortion crowd and media seized on it and continue to parrot it as if it's fact.  

 

Do you have any links to a woman getting actually prosecuted for a true miscarriage?  Like not just being charged, but actually prosecuted?

 

They're not actually being prosecutes, at least for now, but doctors in states like Missouri which now have strict , non exception, abortion laws, are risking the lives of their patients now to avoid being prosecuted themselves. Here is a recent tweet from a Missource OB/GYN doctor. This is happening in many states, but this is just one example. 

The Supreme Court we have now is a right wing court. So they are pushing those ideas forward without actually thinking thru what they are doing, i.e. the consequences on the wider society of their decisions. I said before that I agree with the ruling in the abstract, but actually implementing it in society involves a whole other level of thinking and planning which has not been done. This decision was dropped on people like a hammer, without thinking or planning, and we are now seeing the consequences. Medical professionals have been dealing with medical issues involving pregnancy in a certain way for 50 years. To expect them to switch to a different way overnight without any transition period and under threat from over zelous Attorneys, Right wing activists, and Attorney generals is not a good situation. We are now beginning to see the consequences of this. 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[coldcow]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

They're not actually being prosecutes, at least for now, but doctors in states like Missouri which now have strict , non exception, abortion laws, are risking the lives of their patients now to avoid being prosecuted themselves. Here is a recent tweet from a Missource OB/GYN doctor. This is happening in many states, but this is just one example. 

The Supreme Court we have now is a right wing court. So they are pushing those ideas forward without actually thinking thru what they are doing, i.e. the consequences on the wider society of their decisions. I said before that I agree with the ruling in the abstract, but actually implementing it in society involves a whole other level of thinking and planning which has not been done. This decision was dropped on people like a hammer, without thinking or planning, and we are now seeing the consequences. Medical professionals have been dealing with medical issues involving pregnancy in a certain way for 50 years. To expect them to switch to a different way overnight without any transition period and under threat from over zelous Attorneys, Right wing activists, and Attorney generals is not a good situation. We are now beginning to see the consequences of this. 

 

Yeah, I don't buy this.  Any doctor that is doing that is either 1) Already doing that as their standard of practice, or 2) Doing it in an attempt to politicize their actions.  Believe me, I work in the medical field and know lots of doctors.  This post make no sense.  Hemoperitoneum is a medical emergency, especially in the context of a ruptured ectopic.  And you don't wait to keep checking the hemoglobin, because the hemoglobin won't drop until hours after a patient is already bleeding to death.  Waiting for unstable vitals would happen much faster than falling hemoglobin.  

There is a lot of misinformation out there.  There isn't a court in this country that would take a doctor to trial for operating on a ruptured ectopic pregnancy.  I agree that many places have laws in effect that were poorly written, but the media is manipulating this to an extreme to try and make it seem as though it's a war against women, or men are trying to kill women, take away their rights to any birth control, etc.

We've all heard of stories of women being prosecuted for miscarriages, but I have yet to see anyone actually being prosecuted.  Perhaps investigated, but I have yet to see an actual prosecution.

[Abu Hadi]

3 hours ago, coldcow said:

Yeah, I don't buy this.  Any doctor that is doing that is either 1) Already doing that as their standard of practice, or 2) Doing it in an attempt to politicize their actions.  Believe me, I work in the medical field and know lots of doctors.  This post make no sense.  Hemoperitoneum is a medical emergency, especially in the context of a ruptured ectopic.  And you don't wait to keep checking the hemoglobin, because the hemoglobin won't drop until hours after a patient is already bleeding to death.  Waiting for unstable vitals would happen much faster than falling hemoglobin.  

There is a lot of misinformation out there.  There isn't a court in this country that would take a doctor to trial for operating on a ruptured ectopic pregnancy.  I agree that many places have laws in effect that were poorly written, but the media is manipulating this to an extreme to try and make it seem as though it's a war against women, or men are trying to kill women, take away their rights to any birth control, etc.

We've all heard of stories of women being prosecuted for miscarriages, but I have yet to see anyone actually being prosecuted.  Perhaps investigated, but I have yet to see an actual prosecution.

I think the main issue is that there is no clarity about what is an 'abortion', since these states, like Missouri, have not said they 'won't' prosecute doctors for basically doing their job, i.e. ending a pregnancy that puts the mother's life at risk. If a doctor terminates a pregnancy for a sound medical reason, well, a 'sound medical reason' is sometimes not 100% clear and there can be differing opinions about what is and isn't a sound medical reason, and there are some grey areas. Attorney generals in these states are looking to 'get points' with their Trumpist base by going after 'abortion doctors', and a doctor could be labeled an 'abortion doctors' by these people for no logical or scientific reason. You know this right ? They don't need a reason to label someone. They label all Muslims as terrorists, even though there hasn't been a terrorist attack done by Muslims in the US in almost a decade and in that time there have been 10s of terrorist attacks done by right wing, white supremacist groups (yet they don't think of them as terrorists). These trumpists are not the 'brightest bulbs on the tree', most of them. So it could very easily happen that a doctor performs a medical procedure that is perfectly justified medically, in order to preserve the life and health of the mother, then afterward get's labeled an 'abortion doctor', then the AG goes after them to score political points. None of this is based on science or logic, it is purely political. Try explaining yourself to a mob. There's no way to do it because a mob doesn't listen to logic. You just have to try to run away. 

Doctors in these states realize this, and they are afraid of losing their license or being prosecuted. So they are doing things they would not normally do in order to not get labeled an 'abortion doctor'. Doctors are not stupid people, they fully realize the political environment that are living in and practicing medicine in. That is why I think, with the lack of clarity, there could be a situation where a women, or more than 1 will lose her life because of this. I think it's bound to happen if something doesn't change. That is just a guess, but I think one based on information and not ignorance. 

I grew up in a household of right wing Republicans. I know how they think. This is getting a little scary now. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[coldcow]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

even though there hasn't been a terrorist attack done by Muslims in the US in almost a decade and in that time there have been 10s of terrorist attacks done by right wing, white supremacist groups (yet they don't think of them as terrorists).

I mean there have been several attacks carried out by Muslims, or those that claim to be Muslim.  The shooting at the Navy Air Station in Pensacola by the Saudi pilot.  The shooting at a the gay night club in Orlando, the one in California by the married couple.  Then the Boston bombings were also in 2013.  I'm sure there are more.  But yes, I agree with your point.  More often than not an act carried out by a Muslim is considered terrorism, regardless of any potential mental health or other motive.  An act carried out by someone else is rarely labelled terrorism.

 

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

So it could very easily happen that a doctor performs a medical procedure that is perfectly justified medically, in order to preserve the life and health of the mother, then afterward get's labeled an 'abortion doctor', then the AG goes after them to score political points. None of this is based on science or logic, it is purely political.

But is there any evidence of this happening?  Or is it all fear mongering by the media and by celebrities and organizations like Planned Parenthood?

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

That is why I think, with the lack of clarity, there could be a situation where a women, or more than 1 will lose her life because of this.

I think what's more likely to get a woman killed is the media telling them that doctors won't save their lives if they go to the hospital.  If a patient is in need of something, the doctor will do it.  Perhaps some doctors are dumb and falling for the media sensationalism that the attorneys general are going to come after them.  But most know that if there's a legitimate reason to perform a procedure, they'll do it.  

There's a very large media and pop culture movement to convince women that abortion is a good thing and something they should use as normal birth control if they just don't feel like having a baby.  Instead, they should focus on better birth control.  I get that abortion is bound to happen, but it shouldn't be a default procedure that we turn to.  It should be used sparingly for rare circumstances. 

But that's just my observation and thinking.  

Edited July 4, 2022 by coldcow