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Questions regarding Shii'ism

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As of late I have been trying to deep dive more into the religion. I was born as a Sunni muslim, but never really had deep knowledge regarding Islam outside of the basics. These past 2 years I have delevoped a close friendship with somebody who is a Shia muslim, and he has kept urging me to look more into Shi'ism. Out of curiousity and wanting to seek more knowledge I decided to look more into it, but it honestly has gotten me to have more questions than answers. I have asked my Shia friend regarding certain topics, but they expressed that they do not have the proper knowledge to answer my question and advised me to ask people on this website instead, who could help me with these questions. I will also be using certain statements from my friend as reference point for some of the questions.

The questions:

1. According to my friend, ''Abu Bakr & Umar (رضي الله عنه) are in hell''. I have found this to be strange because isnt the Quran explicit in stating Abu Bakr & Omar (رضي الله عنه) are in heaven because Allah approves of them in Quran 48:18 & 9:100? Considering Allah is all knowing why would he say such things if they would steal the Caliphate, and lead the majority of muslims ''astray'' according to my friend.

2. From what I have read regarding Shi'ism, Ali (رضي الله عنه) hated the 3 Rashidun Caliphs. The argument that seems to be used for this is that the election happened without him (which to be fair to the Shia side, it was controversial since Ali (رضي الله عنه) was not present at that time).

However, he named 3 of his sons after them. Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also named his son (Ali RA grandson) after Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه). Ali (رضي الله عنه) also married his daughter Um Kulthum (رضي الله عنه) (Fatima's daughter) to Omar (رضي الله عنه). Ali (رضي الله عنه) from what I have read appears to be an incredibly courageous, honest and just man (according to both the Shia & Sunni sources, so he seems like the last type of person who would not protect his daughter from marrying her mother's murderer? And Ali (رضي الله عنه) sent his sons Hassan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) to protect Uthman (رضي الله عنه), why would he do this if he did not support Uthman (رضي الله عنه) who Shi'ism alleges was the false 3rd Caliph? Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also appeared to have gotten injured protecting Uthman (رضي الله عنه).

3. According to my friend, Aisha (رضي الله عنه) deserves to be cursed, and it is completely allowed to curse her in Shia islam according to him (although he did admit that not all Shi'ites do it). But would that not go against Quran 33:6? The verse states '''The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers''', doesn't this mean that we have to view and treat all of the prophet's wives as our own mothers? And wouldn't Quran 24:10-26 prove that we are forbidden from slandering Aisha (رضي الله عنه)?

4. The Shahada that is being used within Shia Islam has me incredibly confused, because is this really how the Shahada was said by the Muslims before us? I can personally not imagine the Shahada that was said by prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), the Sahaba (رضي الله عنه), Ali (رضي الله عنه), his sons Hasan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) would mention Ali (رضي الله عنه). If somebody could please explain this I would be happy to learn  

5. The use of the Turbah also has me confused, if you were going to use a Turbah why not one from Prophet Muhammad's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) grave or where Ali (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? Why instead use a Turbah from where Husayn (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? 

6. When it comes to Sunni Hadiths, the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) expressed to not build Mosques on graves when he was fatally ill.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:529

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1330

I understand that Shia Islam does not accept Sunni hadiths as authentic. But, when looking at prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), & Omar (رضي الله عنه) graves, it appears that they are separate from the Masjid in Saudi Arabia. But all Shia Imam Graves have been turned into a Masjid and they pray facing the deceased, why so?

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10 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

According to my friend, ''Abu Bakr & Umar (رضي الله عنه) are in hell''. I have found this to be strange because isnt the Quran explicit in stating Abu Bakr & Omar (رضي الله عنه) are in heaven because Allah approves of them in Quran 48:18 & 9:100? Considering Allah is all knowing why would he say such things if they would steal the Caliphate, and lead the majority of muslims ''astray'' according to my friend.

According to our scholars, we cannot use such language about the Holy personalities of our sunni brothers. But, we believe as Shias that due to atrocities committed by Hazrat Abu Bakar and Hazrat Omer, they do not have happiness of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) with them and the verse which you have quoted mentions about "Momineen" among "Ashra-e-Mubashira" and not all of them as Allah (عزّ وجلّ) distinctly says that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is happy with Momineen and not whole Ashra-e-Mubashira.

11 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

From what I have read regarding Shi'ism, Ali (رضي الله عنه) hated the 3 Rashidun Caliphs. The argument that seems to be used for this is that the election happened without him (which to be fair to the Shia side, it was controversial since Ali (رضي الله عنه) was not present at that time).

However, he named 3 of his sons after them. Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also named his son (Ali RA grandson) after Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه). Ali (رضي الله عنه) also married his daughter Um Kulthum (رضي الله عنه) (Fatima's daughter) to Omar (رضي الله عنه). Ali (رضي الله عنه) from what I have read appears to be an incredibly courageous, honest and just man (according to both the Shia & Sunni sources, so he seems like the last type of person who would not protect his daughter from marrying her mother's murderer? And Ali (رضي الله عنه) sent his sons Hassan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) to protect Uthman (رضي الله عنه), why would he do this if he did not support Uthman (رضي الله عنه) who Shi'ism alleges was the false 3rd Caliph? Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also appeared to have gotten injured protecting Uthman (رضي الله عنه).

This following reply regarding names is from Al-islam.org

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) had many children, up to 28, with various names that were common at that time. 

When someone hears that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) named some of his sons by the name of the first three caliphs, their initial reaction a Shi'i has is "How could he name them by the names of his enemies?"

But the big question here is who said that he named them in honour of the three caliphs? Did they have some monopoly over these names? 

Absolutely not. 

Do we not have some noble people during the time of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) who had these names, like 'Uthman ibn Madh'un ((رضي الله عنه).), etc.  Especially when we have some narrations that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) had mentioned this. 

The same we can say about the name 'Umar. Maybe it was 'Amr, and not 'Umar, but even if it was 'Umar, the name itself is not a bad name. And there are numerous good people who had that name, like 'Umar ibn Abi Salamah. 

As for Abu Bakr, this is a kunyah, and it's not established that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) certainly named one of his sons by this name. 

If in this era, someone names their son Usamah, it does not mean they love Bin Laden, or if an Italian was to name their daughter Madonna (Medieval Italian name of Mary), then it does not mean they love the singer Madonna.

Maybe the Imam's wife and mother of that son had requested it, in honour of one of her family members. 

Here is a list of famous and noble companions who also had these names:

https://www.aqaed.com/faq/107/

As for Hazrat Umar's marriage with Umm-e-kulsoom. This lady has similar name like that of daughter of Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام). The wife of Hazrat Umar died in his life while daughter of Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) survived to witness karbala which happened so many years after Hazrat Umar left the world. So these two ladies were two different personalities.

11 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

3. According to my friend, Aisha (رضي الله عنه) deserves to be cursed, and it is completely allowed to curse her in Shia islam according to him (although he did admit that not all Shi'ites do it). But would that not go against Quran 33:6? The verse states '''The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers''', doesn't this mean that we have to view and treat all of the prophet's wives as our own mothers? And wouldn't Quran 24:10-26 prove that we are forbidden from slandering Aisha (رضي الله عنه)?

It does not behoves a Shia to disrespect any religious figure respected by both Shia and Sunni. However  Islam encourages us to take side with those who are just and state the truth. Hazrat Ayesha fought with Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) despite warnings of prophet. Her such action was unjust and oppressive.

11 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

4. The Shahada that is being used within Shia Islam has me incredibly confused, because is this really how the Shahada was said by the Muslims before us? I can personally not imagine the Shahada that was said by prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), the Sahaba (رضي الله عنه), Ali (رضي الله عنه), his sons Hasan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) would mention Ali (رضي الله عنه). If somebody could please explain this I would be happy to learn  

Shahada was updated with time according to its necessity because life gets changed and it is necessary that with such change there must something to address it. In the time of Prophet, shahada was limited upto Allah and prophet but when Prophet declared that he was leaving this world and declared Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, the shahada of wilaya become obligatory and those who were present during such declaration uttered such Sahada and called Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) as Mawla.

 

11 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

5. The use of the Turbah also has me confused, if you were going to use a Turbah why not one from Prophet Muhammad's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) grave or where Ali (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? Why instead use a Turbah from where Husayn (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? 

Sajdah can be made on any purified turban, it's sunnah of Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام).

 

11 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

6. When it comes to Sunni Hadiths, the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) expressed to not build Mosques on graves when he was fatally ill.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:529

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1330

I understand that Shia Islam does not accept Sunni hadiths as authentic. But, when looking at prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), & Omar (رضي الله عنه) graves, it appears that they are separate from the Masjid in Saudi Arabia. But all Shia Imam Graves have been turned into a Masjid and they pray facing the deceased, why so?

In Surah Kahf there is mention that on the death of Ashab-e-Kahf, people vowed to make a masjid upon them and Quran does not criticize such statement which makes it clear that Holy places can be built near the graves but the direction of sajdah must not be graves rather direction of Kabatullah.

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As a non-Shia I still believe the naming of his three sons, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman is too good to be true. Almost fairy tale-ish. Not saying there was enmity but the above is the other extreme.

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15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

1. According to my friend, ''Abu Bakr & Umar (رضي الله عنه) are in hell''. I have found this to be strange because isnt the Quran explicit in stating Abu Bakr & Omar (رضي الله عنه) are in heaven because Allah approves of them in Quran 48:18 & 9:100? Considering Allah is all knowing why would he say such things if they would steal the Caliphate, and lead the majority of muslims ''astray'' according to my friend.

Salam

I find it interesting that you quote verse 9:100. Because the very next verse (9:101) is exposing some of the sahaba. Have a look:

وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flOw, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. [9:100]

وَمِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُمْ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مُنَافِقُونَ ۖ وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ ۖ مَرَدُوا عَلَى النِّفَاقِ لَا تَعْلَمُهُمْ ۖ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ ۚ سَنُعَذِّبُهُمْ مَرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ
And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement. [9:101]

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

2. From what I have read regarding Shi'ism, Ali (رضي الله عنه) hated the 3 Rashidun Caliphs. The argument that seems to be used for this is that the election happened without him (which to be fair to the Shia side, it was controversial since Ali (رضي الله عنه) was not present at that time).

However, he named 3 of his sons after them. Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also named his son (Ali RA grandson) after Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه).

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/names-of-imam-ali-sons.html
Imam Ali did not name his sons after the caliphs. The caliphs don't own the freehold on those names. There were dozens of Arabs at that time who also had the names Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman. 

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

Ali (رضي الله عنه) also married his daughter Um Kulthum (رضي الله عنه) (Fatima's daughter) to Omar (رضي الله عنه). Ali (رضي الله عنه) from what I have read appears to be an incredibly courageous, honest and just man (according to both the Shia & Sunni sources, so he seems like the last type of person who would not protect his daughter from marrying her mother's murderer?

This hadith sums up the whole marriage - and why it is no virtue for Umar:

"When Umar came to make the marriage proposal, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali (عليه السلام) told him:
"She is a young girl."
Thereupon, Umar met Abbas and told him: "What is wrong with me? Do I have any defect?"
Abbas said: "Why are you saying that?"
Umar said: "I asked your nephew for his daughter‘s hand in marriage, but he has turned me down. I swear by Allah! I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand."
Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied."
(Source: Al-Kafi, 5/346 tradition number 1 and 2).

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

And Ali (رضي الله عنه) sent his sons Hassan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) to protect Uthman (رضي الله عنه), why would he do this if he did not support Uthman (رضي الله عنه) who Shi'ism alleges was the false 3rd Caliph? Hasan (رضي الله عنه) also appeared to have gotten injured protecting Uthman (رضي الله عنه).

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sent his sons to protect Uthman because he knew that he would be blamed for Uthman's murder. So he sent Hasan (عليه السلام). and Husayn (عليه السلام) to protect him so that no one could come and say that Imam Ali murdered Uthman.

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

3. According to my friend, Aisha (رضي الله عنه) deserves to be cursed, and it is completely allowed to curse her in Shia islam according to him (although he did admit that not all Shi'ites do it). But would that not go against Quran 33:6? The verse states '''The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers''', doesn't this mean that we have to view and treat all of the prophet's wives as our own mothers? And wouldn't Quran 24:10-26 prove that we are forbidden from slandering Aisha (رضي الله عنه)?

Quran 33:6 isn't talking about anything about respect. It's talking about law. It means that in the same way that we can't marry our mothers, we can't marry the Prophet's wives. Simple as that. And Quran 24:10-26 isn't even about Aisha, it's about Mariya Al-Qibtiyya.

I recommend reading Surah Al-Tahreem. Or watch this lecture about Surah Al-Tahreem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwFRkfAFl5U

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

4. The Shahada that is being used within Shia Islam has me incredibly confused, because is this really how the Shahada was said by the Muslims before us? I can personally not imagine the Shahada that was said by prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), the Sahaba (رضي الله عنه), Ali (رضي الله عنه), his sons Hasan & Husayn (رضي الله عنه) would mention Ali (رضي الله عنه). If somebody could please explain this I would be happy to learn  

After the event of Ghadeer, Bilal, the Mu'adhdhin, recited that adhan and after he said اشهد ان محمد رسول الله, he said اشهد ان علي ولي الله and the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) approved of it. 

15 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

5. The use of the Turbah also has me confused, if you were going to use a Turbah why not one from Prophet Muhammad's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) grave or where Ali (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? Why instead use a Turbah from where Husayn (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? 

Although the days of the martyrdom of the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) were extremely dismal and sorrowful, the martyrdom of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) was different. The holy Prophet and Imam Ali weren't trampled upon by horses and kicked around the burning plains under the hot sun. Imam al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said to Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام), 
"There is no day like your day, O Aba Abdillah."

Not to mention that I'm pretty certain the Saudi government isn't gonna approve of people making turbahs.

16 hours ago, mbinacut1 said:

6. When it comes to Sunni Hadiths, the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) expressed to not build Mosques on graves when he was fatally ill.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:529

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1330

I understand that Shia Islam does not accept Sunni hadiths as authentic. But, when looking at prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), & Omar (رضي الله عنه) graves, it appears that they are separate from the Masjid in Saudi Arabia. But all Shia Imam Graves have been turned into a Masjid and they pray facing the deceased, why so?

First of all, the grave of the Prophet and the first two caliphs are separate to the mosque because the wahhabis don't believe in building mosques over graves. When it comes to the Shia Imams, their graves have mosques over them because of the spiritual energy surrounding the holy body. Even if you think rationally, which prayer has a better chance of being accepted, one in a random mosque, or one in the holy shrine of the Prophet's family member? Also, look at Surah al-Kahf:

إِذْ يَتَنَازَعُونَ بَيْنَهُمْ أَمْرَهُمْ ۖ فَقَالُوا ابْنُوا عَلَيْهِمْ بُنْيَانًا ۖ رَبُّهُمْ أَعْلَمُ بِهِمْ ۚ قَالَ الَّذِينَ غَلَبُوا عَلَىٰ أَمْرِهِمْ لَنَتَّخِذَنَّ عَلَيْهِمْ مَسْجِدًا
When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them. 
[18:21]

May Allah bless you in your search for the truth.

Ma3salam.

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14 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

This hadith sums up the whole marriage - and why it is no virtue for Umar:

"When Umar came to make the marriage proposal, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali (عليه السلام) told him:
"She is a young girl."
Thereupon, Umar met Abbas and told him: "What is wrong with me? Do I have any defect?"
Abbas said: "Why are you saying that?"
Umar said: "I asked your nephew for his daughter‘s hand in marriage, but he has turned me down. I swear by Allah! I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand."
Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied."
(Source: Al-Kafi, 5/346 tradition number 1 and 2).

This hadith has some problems:

1) This hadith shows Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is searching for excuses not to accept this proposal which is wrong because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was never afraid of anyone and never liked that excuses be made rather than direct denial. 

2) The second point says that Umer threatens to say that he will setup witnesses against Imam Ali for a false charge of theft which is wrong in the sense that no one could win from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in judicial matters and those who setup such Traps were themselves vanquished and Hazrat Umer knew that. 

This hadith, therefore, looks unauthentic and wrong.

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On 5/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, mbinacut1 said:

I understand that Shia Islam does not accept Sunni hadiths as authentic.

Salam if Sunni hadiths be inline with holy Quran & be rational so then we accept authencity of Sunni hadiths which there is some examples which such type Sunni hadiths has been mentioned in Shia hadith book as narration from populace (Sunni) scholars .

Quote

 

 
 

In particular (خاصه)

 , it is a term for referring to the Shiites as opposed to the general (عامه)term referring to the Sunnis . [1]

The reason for naming the Sunnis to the public/populace is that during the life of the Shiite Imams (the first three lunar centuries) the Sunnis ruled and had all the scientific, governmental and judicial facilities at their hands. [2] The term "public/populace" عامه"" about  Sunnis has also been used in the hadiths of the Shiite Imams. [3] For example, in the Maqbulat 'Umar b. Hanzala[acceptance of Umar ibn Hanzala ]from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) , this interpretation has been used. [4]

According to Seyyed Mohsen Amin, the reason for naming "Shiites" as "special" خاصه" " is that, firstly, Shiites consider themselves more deserving of being called Sunnis than others, and secondly, Shiites are a special group among the majority of many Muslims . [5]

In the discussions related to the hadith document, if the narrators of the hadith are Sunnis, it is said that it has reached us through "public/populace", and if the narrators of the hadith are Shiites, the term "special methods" is used. [6]

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/خاصه

Quote

here is no comment about the reliability or unreliability of 'Umar b. Hanzala, but Shiite jurisprudents have accepted this hadith because of its content and the occurrence of People of Consensus in its chains of the transmitters, and issued fatwas on its basis. Thus, the hadith came to be known as "maqbula" (accepted). The hadith is cited by al-Kulayni, al-Shaykh al-Saduq, and al-Shaykh al-Tusi in the Four Books.

The hadith has two parts:

The first part of 'Umar b. Hanzala's question from Imam al-Sadiq (a) concerns the judicial authority to whom the Shi'as should refer. This part has been appealed to in order to prove wilaya al-faqih.
The second part is concerned with the ways to prefer some of the conflicting hadiths over the others. This part has been very helpful with respect to the issue of conflicting hadiths in fiqh.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Maqbulat_'Umar_b._Hanzala

 

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On 5/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, mbinacut1 said:

But, when looking at prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), & Omar (رضي الله عنه) graves, it appears that they are separate from the Masjid in Saudi Arabia. But all Shia Imam Graves have been turned into a Masjid and they pray facing the deceased, why so?

Their graves has been seperated by extremist  Wahabist which until end of Ottoman era & rulership of Sharifate of Mecca their graves have been a part of Masjid which it's common & accepted  hadith from prophet Muhammad (pbu) which he said that "Between my house & my pulpit is a garden from gardens of paradise "

Quote

“Between my house and my pulpit lies a garden from the gardens of Paradise," says a Hadith from Bukhari.
The Rawdah’s borders from the eastern side is the house of Aisha, the pulpit from its western side, the qibla from its southern side, and a parallel line to the end of Aisha’s house from the northern side.
The original size is approximately 22 meters in length and 15 meters in width.

https://www.arabnews.com/islam-perspective/news/867426

Which their grave has been in Hijaz not fake Saudi Arabia which their graves have been seperated from Masjid due to innovation of Wahabists which they have accused Shias to facing the deceased also on the other hand they have not mentioned  that Hijr Ismai'l at least is grave of prophet  Ismai'l & his mother lady Hajar (sa) which as usual Wahabists  have called a  hadith about it as weak (dha'eef) which in their opposition  all four sunni schools  of thoughts  have considered  ther grave as a part of holy Kaaba  which until now all of Saudi monarch  kings from first to last one have prayed toward this place which according  to their mindset they have faced to deceased  not holy Kaaba so therefore in similar fashion  until now based on Wahabi  mindset all muslims whether Sunni or Shia even prophet  Muhammad (pbu)  have faced to deceaseds not holy Kaaba until now .

https://www.ilinktours.com/blog/importance-of-praying-salah-in-hijr-ismail/

 

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Grave of Prophets (a)
According to hadiths and historical sources, Hajar was buried in this place after she passed away. Isma'il brought the grave of his mother higher and made a fence around it so that people would not walk on it.[8] He (a) was also buried here after he passed away.[9] According to narrations, some of his daughters and some prophets are also buried in this place.[10]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hijr_Isma'il

In similar  fashion many Sunni hadiths have mentioned  importace & reward of praying in Hijr Ismail area has been mentioned  as eqivalent to praying inside the Holy Kaaba.

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Facts about the Hijr Ismail

Listed below are some surprising facts about Hijr Ismail that highlight its importance in Islam:

Fact 1: The Grave of Prophet Ismail (عليه السلام)

During the reconstruction of the Ka’bah, the area of Hijr Ismail was left outside. According to some Islamic scholars, it was done because underneath the sacred area lies Prophet Ismail’s graves (عليه السلام) and his mother Hajra (عليه السلام).

 

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It is mentioned in various Ahadith that if a person enters into Hateem then he has entered Baitullah. Ibn-e-Abbas ((رضي الله عنه)) narrated a Hadith from Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).W), ‘offer prayer at the place of righteous people and drink the drink of virtuous people’. He was asked ‘what is the place of righteous people”’ Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).W) said, ‘under Hijr’. And when he was asked about the Drink of righteous people he said, ‘The water of Zam-Zam’.
Almost every Muslim desires to seek blessings of the Holy Makkah and Madinah during Umrah. Some are lucky enough to get this opportunity, while others stay back looking for circumstances

 

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 It is mentioned in a Hadith narrated by Hazrat Ayesha ((رضي الله عنه)), ‘if people would not have newly converted into Islam I would have reconstructed the Kaabah with two doors, one in the eastern side and one in the western direction. And I would have added a pace of six hands from Hijr into Kaabah because Quraysh removed a portion of it while its reconstruction’. Ibn-e-Umar ((رضي الله عنه)) said, ‘If Hazrat Ayesha ((رضي الله عنه)) is mentioning such hadith then it makes sense that why Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).W) never touched the side of Kaabah from Hijr (during Tawaf) because it was not contrasted on its real grounds’.

https://www.makkahtour.co.uk/blogs/the-history-and-religious-significance-of-hateem/

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Fact 2: The Dream of Abdul Muttalib

Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))’s grandfather Abdul Muttalib used to love sitting in the area of Hateem. One night while he was sleeping, he dreamt of a shadowy figure that directed him to the Zamzam well, hidden underground since the Jurhum tribe.

With a wish to pray inside the Holy Kaaba, Hazrat Aisha (رضي الله عنه) asked Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), “O Messenger of Allah! Can I not enter the House?” On which Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) replied, “Enter the Hijr Ismail or Hateem as it is part of the House.” (Sunan an-Nasa’i 2911)

  • Fact 4: Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) Stood on Hijr Ismail

According to a narration of Hazrat Jabir Bin ‘Abdullah (رضي الله عنه), it was Hijr Ismail where Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) stood while he narrated the event of Miraj to the people of Quraysh. Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said, “When the people of Quraysh did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood upon the Hijr Ismail or Hateem and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3886)

  • Fact 5: Meezab-e-Rahmah

Meezab-e-Rahmah is a channel of water that starts from the roof of the Holy Kaaba and ends at the Hateem area. It is also known as the water outlet of mercy.

 

 

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Summary – Hijr Ismail

Hijr Ismail is a semi-circular shaped area parallel to the walls of the Holy Ka’bah. It is located on the north-western side of the Kaaba. The boundaries of Hateem are made of marble. The blessings of praying inside Hateem are equivalent to that of praying inside the Holy Kaaba.

https://thepilgrim.co/hijr-ismail-hateem/

https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/7-unknown-facts-you-should-know-abou/

https://www.islamiclandmarks.com/makkah-haram-sharief/hateem-hijr-ismail

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Hijr Ismail FAQs

Which is the best spot in Hateem to offer prayers?

If pilgrims follow the conducts of the Prophet and the Imams, the area or the spot below the outlet of mercy is the right place for making supplication and prayer.

https://zamzam.com/blog/hijr-ismail/

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On 5/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, mbinacut1 said:

non of  people  in chain of narration  are authentic  persons for Shia which also in opposition  to this narrations  Aisha forcefully  have buried Abubakr  & Umar besides of grave of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) for legalizing their rulership & attaching their intercession to intercession  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu)

The Hadith: “Whoever Visits My Grave, My Intercession Is Guaranteed For Him”

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The Hadith: “Whoever Visits My Grave, My Intercession Is Guaranteed For Him”
Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad
[Excerpted from Appendix, Repudiation of the Innovators of Najd]

The hadith “Whoever visits my grave, my intercession will be guaranteed for him” (Man zâra qabrî wajabat lahu shafâ`atî)[1] is a fair (hasan) narration as concluded by Imam Abu al-Hasanat al-Lacknawi[2] and his student `Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghudda in the latter’s notes on Imam Malik’s Muwatta’ according to Muhammad ibn al-Hasan’s narration (chapter 49: On the Prophet’s – Allah bless and greet him – grave) as well as Shaykh Mahmud Mamduh,[3] although some early scholars had declared it sound (sahîh) such as Ibn al-Sakan in al-Sunan al-Sihah and `Abd al-Haqq al-Ishbili in al-Ahkam, followed by Shaykh al-Islam al-Taqi al-Subki in Shifa’ al-Siqam in view of the totality of the chains.[4] Other hadith scholars who considered it authentic are Ibn Hajar’s student the hadith master al-Sakhawi,[5] the hadith master of Madina al-Samhudi,[6] and Shaykh al-Islam al-Haytami in al-Jawhar al-Munazzam. Al-Ghassani (d. 682) did not include it in his compendium of al-Daraqutni’s weak narrations entitled Takhrij al-Ahadith al-Di`af min Sunan al-Daraqutni.[7] Some late scholars, beginning with Ibn Taymiyya, remained undecided whether to grade this hadith weak or forged.

Al-Lacknawi said about this hadith:

There are some who declared it weak [e.g. al-Bayhaqi, Ibn Khuzayma, and al-Suyuti], and others who asserted that all the hadiths on visitation of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – are forged, such as Ibn Taymiyya and his fol­lowers, but both positions are false for those who were given right understanding, for verification of the case dictates that the hadith is hasan, as Taqi al-Din al-Subki has expounded in his book Shifa’ al-Siqam fi Ziyara Khayr al-Anam.”[8]

https://sunnah.org/2012/06/03/the-hadith-“whoever-visits-my-grave-my-intercession-is-guaranteed-for-him”/

Hence, the fact that Ath-Thahabi classified this Hadeeth as Dha’eef [weak] does not contradict that he strengthens the Ahaadeeth of visiting the Prophet’s grave due to its other routes of narration that support it, as can be understood from his previous statements.

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It should be mentioned here that visiting the Prophet’s grave is something confirmed by the general saying of the Prophet  sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ): "…but you may now visit them (i.e. the graves), for it reminds you of the Hereafter.” [Ahmad and Muslim]

Therefore, visiting the Prophet’s grave is more appropriate to be included in this Hadeeth, as mentioned by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen  may  Allaah  have  mercy  upon  him. Hence, there is no controversy over this issue, in principle, whether or not these Ahaadeeth are authentic.

Nonetheless, it should be mentioned that if this visit [of the grave of the Prophet] necessitates a travel, then it should be as part of the visit of the Prophet’s mosque and not an independent visit, i.e. this travel should not be in order to visit the grave purposely. For more benefit, please refer to Fataawa 86597 and 121560.

Allaah Knows best.

https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/182221/my-intercession-will-be-guaranteed-for-the-one-who-visits-my-grave

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كتاب فضل الصلاة فى مسجد مكة والمدينة
20  
Virtues of Prayer at Masjid Makkah and Madinah
 

(5)
Chapter: The superiority of the place between the pulpit and the grave (of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)))
(5)
باب فَضْلِ مَا بَيْنَ الْقَبْرِ وَالْمِنْبَرِ
 

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Between my house and my pulpit there is a garden of the gardens of Paradise, and my pulpit is on my fountain tank (i.e. Al-Kauthar)."

 
حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، عَنْ يَحْيَى، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي خُبَيْبُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ حَفْصِ بْنِ عَاصِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَا بَيْنَ بَيْتِي وَمِنْبَرِي رَوْضَةٌ مِنْ رِيَاضِ الْجَنَّةِ، وَمِنْبَرِي عَلَى حَوْضِي ‏"‏‏.‏
 
Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 1196
In-book reference  : Book 20, Hadith 8

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1196

"The Rawdah is part of the Prophet’s mosque

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The Rawdah’s borders from the eastern side is the house of Aisha, the pulpit from its western side, the qibla from its southern side, and a parallel line to the end of Aisha’s house from the northern side.
The original size is approximately 22 meters in length and 15 meters in width.
Visitors are always keen to offer nafl prayers in Rawdah, for it is considered to be the best place, except for obligatory prayers to be better performed in the first row.
"The Rawdah is part of the Prophet’s mosque, and the prayer in it equals in reward 1,000 prayers. However, there is no doubt that the Rawdah is of more excellence because the Prophet distinguished it and did not distinguish any other parts of the mosque for being a garden from the gardens of Paradise." (Bukhari)

 

https://www.arabnews.com/islam-perspective/news/867426

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The Prophet (ﷺ) used to lean against the trunk of a palm tree  while delivering a sermon. The Ansar humbly suggested to him, “If you approve, we can make a pulpit for you.” The Prophet (ﷺ) approved it and a pulpit was made. Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) sat on this pulpit to make an address. When the Prophet (ﷺ) started using the new pulpit, the old tree yearned for him like a camel missing its calf. The Prophet (ﷺ) hugged the trunk until it had calmed down and then ordered that a ditch be dug and the trunk buried decently into it.
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stand on the third rung while delivering his sermons. When Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) became caliph, he stood on the second rung and Umar bin Khattab (رضي الله عنه) stood on the first. Caliph Usman bin Affan did as Umar (رضي الله عنه) had done for six years before he returned to the old position of the Prophet

 

https://www.islamiclandmarks.com/madinah-masjid-e-nabwi/riadhul-jannah-and-mehrab

 

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/rawdha-garden-paradise-madina

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Request from Those who have Passed away

Main article: Visiting Graves

Wahhabis say that asking Shafa'a from intercessors after their demise is impermissible since it is a polytheistic act and the dead cannot hear the living.

Answer

If some action are polytheistic, it would be polytheistic both in this world and the hereafter and there would be no difference. Moreover, death is about body, while soul is living and hearing du'as and Shafa'a and answering it is related with the soul not the body.

There are many Sunni hadiths about reciting Salawat upon the Prophet (s) and saying Salam (salutation) to him from far or near and it is clarified that the Prophet (s) hears these Salams and praises and answers to them.[33]

We Have No Rights to Ask Them

Muhammad b. 'Abd al-Wahhab says,

"If one says that, 'the Prophet (s) is given the rights to make Shafa'a and I ask him about what God has given to him'; the answer would be that God has given him the rights to make Shafa'a, but He has prohibited you from asking him and has said that, 'so do not invoke anyone along with Allah. (72:18)'"[34]

Answer Firstly, the above verse has no relation with asking for Shafa'a; and it is about the polytheists who considered independent partners for God and asked them their requests and thus such verses cannot be identified with believers.

Secondly, as it is mentioned above, the meaning of this verse and other such verses which have come with "مع" [with] is that no being should ever be considered at the same level with God, but if one believes that God has given permission to a means or mediator to do something while he considers anything done by the order of God; this would not be an act of polytheism, and it is along with monotheism, the same as when in the Qur'an, Prophet Jesus (a) attributes healing the sick, reviving the dead, and even creating a bird from mud to himself but depending on the permission of God.[35]

 

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False Intercession

False Shafa'a is that the wrongdoer acts against the law and influences the will of the lawmaker through an illegal way. Such kind of Shafa'a in this world is an act of oppression and it is impossible in the hereafter.[14] The objections to Shafa'a are mostly of this kind and this is rejected in the Qur'an as well.

The false Shafa'a originates from the belief in Tafwid (unrestricted human delegation) which is a wrong belief meaning that after creating the world, God delegated its management to others and He has no role in it and thus people would be able to make Shafa'a independently and if one can attract the intercessors' favor, he would not need God.

True Intercession

True Shafa'a as mentioned in the Qur'an which is believed by Shi'a and supported by Imams (a) is that Shafa'a in its wholeness belongs to God and no one can make Shafa'a without His permission. Prophets (a) and Imams' (a) Shafa'a never means that they have an independent role or that to be privileged by their Shafa'a, one would need to do anything other than what God has ordered. On the contrary, they would only make Shafa'a for someone, God would be pleased with,

…and they do not intercede except for someone He approves of,…
— 21:28, Qur'an

 

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False Intercession

False Shafa'a is that the wrongdoer acts against the law and influences the will of the lawmaker through an illegal way. Such kind of Shafa'a in this world is an act of oppression and it is impossible in the hereafter.[14] The objections to Shafa'a are mostly of this kind and this is rejected in the Qur'an as well.

The false Shafa'a originates from the belief in Tafwid (unrestricted human delegation) which is a wrong belief meaning that after creating the world, God delegated its management to others and He has no role in it and thus people would be able to make Shafa'a independently and if one can attract the intercessors' favor, he would not need God.

True Intercession

True Shafa'a as mentioned in the Qur'an which is believed by Shi'a and supported by Imams (a) is that Shafa'a in its wholeness belongs to God and no one can make Shafa'a without His permission. Prophets (a) and Imams' (a) Shafa'a never means that they have an independent role or that to be privileged by their Shafa'a, one would need to do anything other than what God has ordered. On the contrary, they would only make Shafa'a for someone, God would be pleased with,

…and they do not intercede except for someone He approves of,…
— 21:28, Qur'an

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Shafa'a

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Imam Ali AS never named his kids after the Caliphates the names were common. Imam Ali AS never gave his daughter to umar. We pray direction to Kabba. We believe Imam Ali AS is the successor of Prophet Muhammad SAW because there's evidence from bukhari that prophet Muhammad said Ali Mawla second I have left you 2 things the Quran & Ahlulbayt. I can list more if I wanted.

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All the Muslims have unanimously narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) that he said:

ما بين بيتي ومنبري روضة من رياض الجنة
“Between by house and my minbar (pulpit) there is a garden from the gardens of Paradise…”2

 

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The Holy Prophet (s) is reported to have said:

‘Be mindful that a grave is either a garden from the gardens of Paradise or a pit from among the pit-holes of Hell Fire…'

And Imam Zaynul 'Abideen ('a) is also reported to have said:

إن القبر روضة من رياض الجنة أو حفرة من حفر النيران
‘Surely a grave is either a garden of the gardens of Paradise or a pit among the pit-holes of Hell Fire.’3

Other traditions are clearly indicative that the graves of those who lived the lives of Prophets (upon whom be peace) and were utterly submissive to Almighty Allah, are gardens from the gardens of Paradise. Observe the following traditions:

The Holy Prophet (s) in a tradition informs 'Amaar, one of his companions, about the sanctity of the Noble Lady Fatima bint al-Asad, Imam 'Ali ('a)'s noble mother, after her demise, as follows:

 

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يا عمار إن الملائكة قد ملأت الأفق و فتح لها باب من الجنة و مهد لها مهاد من مهاد الجنة ... و قبرها روضة من رياض الجنة
“O Ammar, surely the angels have filled the horizon and have opened for her a gateway towards Paradise and have prepared for her resting place from among the resting places of paradise….and her grave is a garden from the gardens of Paradise”.4

Imam Abu 'Abdillah as-Sadiq ('a) is reported to have said:

موضع قبر الحسين (عليه السلام) منذ يوم دفن فيه روضة من رياض الجنة

The area of al-Husayn’s grave from the day he was buried has been a garden from the gardens of Paradise.’5

And Imam al-Ridha (‘a) after foretelling that the place where he would be buried would be in Toos, adds:

إن بخراسان بقعة يأتي عليها زمان تصير موضع مختلف الملائكة فلا يزال فوج ينزل من السماء و فوج يصعد إلى يوم أن ينفخ في الصور فقيل له يا ابن رسول الله و أية بقعة هذه قال هي بأرض طوس و هي و الله روضة من رياض الجنة من زارني في تل ك البقعة آان آمن زار رسول الله (ص)

Surely in Khurasan there is a spot, a time will come when it would be the place where the Angels would descend and ascend; while a group of them would descend from the heaven, another group would ascend, and this shall continue until the trumpet will be blown.

Thereupon Imam al-Ridha ('a) was asked: And which spot is this? And he said: It is in the land of Toos, and I swear by Allah it is a garden among the gardens of Paradise; and whosoever visits me in that tomb, it is as if he has visited the Messenger of Allah (s)…”6

In yet another tradition Imam al-Sadiq ('a) is reported to have said:

عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال سمعته يقول الكوفة روضة من رياض الجنة فيها قبر نوح و إبراهيم (ع) و قبور ثلاث مائة نبي...

Kufa is a garden from the gardens of Paradise: in it is the grave of Nuh (‘a) and Ibrahim (‘a) and the graves of 370 Prophets7

 

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In light of the aforesaid traditions, we can speculate what the "Rawdha" actually is. In some other traditions, however, there is a clear mention that the Rawdha referred to in the Prophetic tradition that we quoted in the beginning is the noble grave of Hadhrat Fatima Zahra ('a), who according to her will, was buried in the absence of those whom she felt did not deserve attending her burial ceremony. Observe the following traditions:

عن معاوية بن وهب قال: قلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام: هل قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله مابين بيتي ومنبري روضة من رياض الجنة؟

فقال: نعم وقال: بيت علي وفاطمة عليهما السلام مابين البيت الذي فيه النبي صلى الله عليه وآله إلى الباب الذي يحاذي الزقاق إلى البقيع

“Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) was once asked: Did the Messenger of Allah (s) say: ‘Between my house and my minbar is a garden of the gardens of Paradise’ and he responded: ‘Yes’, and added: ‘The house of ‘Ali and Fatima is between the House where the Holy Prophet resided up until the door which is parallel to the alley towards Baqi’…”8

Imam al-Ridha (‘a) was asked about the grave of Hadhrat Fatima (‘a), and he said: She was buried in her house, and when the Banu Umayya increased the area of the mosque, it became a part of the mosque.

Shaykh Sadooq (may Allah sanctify his spirit), one of the great Muslim scholars has also opted to agree with the opinion that Hadhrat Fatima (‘a) was buried in her house.

Anyways in the ambiguity of the whereabouts of Fatima ('a)'s grave there is an eternal resonance of her complain and opposition to those whom she did not allow to attend at her funeral ceremonies.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/rawdha-garden-paradise-madina

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Among those who fall into the category of “Ibn Taymiyya and his followers” on this issue:

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Ibn `Abd al-Hadi who wrote al-Sarim al-Munki fi al-Radd `ala al-Subki in violent refutation of al-Subki’s book on visitation but contradicted his own position in another book of his.[9] Shaykh Mah­mud Mamduh refuted his weakening of this hadith in great detail[10] and stated that al-Sarim al-Munki is at the root of all subsequent generalizations in weakening the hadiths that concern the desirability of visitation.[11]
the late Wahhabi shaykh `Abd al-`Aziz Bin Baz who reiter­ated Ibn Taymiyya’s imprudent verdict: “The hadiths that concern the visita­tion of the grave of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – are all weak, indeed forged”;[12]
Nasir al-Albani,[13] who claimed that the visit to the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – ranks among the innovations;[14]
and Nasir al-Jadya`, who in 1993 obtained his Ph.D. with First Honors from the University of Muhammad ibn Sa`ud after writing a 600-page book entitled al-Tabarruk in which he perpetuates the same aberrant claim.[15]
Al-Sakhawi:

The emphasis and encouragement on visiting his noble grave is mentioned in numerous hadiths, and it would suffice to show this if there was only the hadith whereby the truthful and God-confirmed Prophet promises that his intercession among other things becomes guaranteed for whoever visits him, and the Imams are in complete agreement from the time directly after his passing until our own time that this [i.e. visiting him] is among the best acts of drawing near to Allah.[16]

https://sunnah.org/2012/06/03/the-hadith-“whoever-visits-my-grave-my-intercession-is-guaranteed-for-him”/

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On 5/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, mbinacut1 said:

5. The use of the Turbah also has me confused, if you were going to use a Turbah why not one from Prophet Muhammad's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) grave or where Ali (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? Why instead use a Turbah from where Husayn (رضي الله عنه) was assassinated? 

Salam

 it is narrated that after the death and burial of the Holy Prophet (S), people used to come and carry some soil from his grave with the aim of seeking divine favors from it. ‘A’ishah got worried that the soil would get finished and hence reveal the body of the Holy Prophet. Therefore, she ordered that a wall should be raised around the Prophet’s grave.12

11.Wafa’ al-Wafa’, vol. 1, p. 52.
12.Ibid., vol. 1, p. 385.

The grave of al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is likened to the Holy Prophet’s (S)
At the beginning of this discussion, we mentioned the virtues and special qualities of the Holy Prophet’s (S) shrine and the whole area where his holy body rests. Now, we have to bring back to mind that the grave of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is just like the Prophet’s (S), because Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is a part of the Holy Prophet (S). The Holy Prophet (S) said,

«حسين منّي وأنا من حسين.»

“Al-Husayn is from me, and I am from al-Husayn.”18

18.Al-Tirmidhi, Sunan, vol. 5, p. 658; Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Al-Musnad, vol. 4, p. 174; Ibn Majah, Sunan, hadith 144.

‘Abd al-Razzaq Muqarram writes, “One of the methods that the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) have employed to manifest the oppression which Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) suffered is prostrating on soil from Karbala. This action has lots of hidden meanings.

The most important secret is that every time man’s eyes fall on the soil of Karbala as he performs his five daily prayers, he is reminded about Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) and his companions and the sacrifices they made. It is clear that remembering such role models will produce remarkable psychological and spiritual effects in man’s soul…”17

It is for this reason that we read in narrations about Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) that his clay (the soil of Karbala) removes the seven veils [hijab]. Therefore, in reality, prostration on the soil of Karbala is a secret for ascending from the earthly domain towards the Lord of lords…”16

16.Al-Ard wa al-Turbat al-Husayniyyah, pp. 32-33

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The Shi‘ahs prostrate on any kind of soil

The Shi‘ah scholars [‘ulama’] do not say that it is obligatory [wajib] to prostrate on soil from Karbala. They have said that it is permissible to prostrate on any clay, earth and dust in general. Because of the fact that the soil from Karbala has special distinctions, it is considered preferable and more desirable to prostrate on it.

 

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The superiority of some lands over other lands in the Qur’an

It can be deduced from a number of verses of the Holy Qur’an that certain lands have been blessed and have special distinctions over other lands. Allah, the Exalted, says,

﴿ إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَکَّةَ مُبارَکاً وَهُديً لِلْعالَمِينَ ﴾

“Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.”

 

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The superiority of some lands over others in hadiths

From the viewpoint of both Sunni and Shi‘ah traditions, it can be inferred that certain parts of the earth, and likewise the people dwelling therein, are endowed with qualities of either wickedness or prosperity and salvation:

1. On his own chain of transmission, Bukhari recounts that ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Umar said, “When the Holy Prophet (S) was passing through the land of Thamud, he said, ‘Do not enter lands whose owners have committed oppression against themselves so that you may not be afflicted with suffering as they were, unless you pass through while crying.’ Then, the Prophet of Allah covered his blessed head and passed through that valley quickly.”8

2. Bukhari also narrates, “‘Ali disliked performing his prayers in the valley of Babylon.”9

3. Halabi recounts, “The consensus of the Islamic community [ummah] is that this place (Medina), which contains the body of the Holy Prophet (S), is the best part of land on earth. It is even higher than the Ka‘bah (Mecca). Some say it is the most excellent part of the earth and is even higher than the Throne [‘arsh] of Allah.”10

 

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The virtues of clay from Karbala

1. Ahmad ibn Hanbal narrates from ‘Amir Shatibi, “I once accompanied ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib on a journey. He was traveling to Siffin. When he reached the valley of Naynawa, he shouted out, ‘O Aba ‘Abd Allah! Bear patiently near the River Euphrates.’ ‘Amir Shatibi says, ‘I asked him: why?’ ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) answered, ‘One day I went to visit the Holy Prophet and found him crying. I asked him, ‘O Prophet of Allah! Has anyone annoyed you? Why are you crying?’ The Holy Prophet (S) answered, ‘No one has annoyed me, but just a while ago the Archangel Gabriel left. He brought the news that al-Husayn will be martyred near the River Euphrates. Gabriel asked me if I wanted to smell the scent of that soil. I agreed. Then, he brought out a handful of soil from the place where al-Husayn will be martyred in Karbala. It was at that moment that I could not control myself and started crying.’’”20

2. Umm Salamah says, “One day, the Prophet of Allah woke up in a very disturbed state. He slept again and once more woke up in the same agitated state. He repeated this three times. When he woke up for the third time, I saw him holding red soil in his hand. He was kissing it while shedding tears. I asked him, ‘O Prophet of Allah! What is that soil?’ He said, ‘Gabriel has informed me that my son al-Husayn will be martyred in Iraq. I asked Gabriel, ‘Show me the soil where al-Husayn will be martyred’ Gabriel brought this soil and gave it to me’.”21

 

  • Al-Hakim al-Neyshaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala al-Sahihayn, vol. 3, p. 176.
  • 20.Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Al-Musnad, vol. 2, p. 60.
  • 21.Al-Hakim al-Neyshaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala al-Sahihayn, vol. 4, p. 398.

https://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/prostration-soil-karbala-land-imam-al

https://en.rafed.net/article/Prostration-on-Karbala-Soil

https://rahyafteha.ir/en/15224/prostration-on-the-soil-of-karbala-the-land-of-imam-hussains-as-martyrdom/

 

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we reveal to the discreet and free-minded researcher the secret why the turbah of the sacred land of Karbala’ is thus honored, the extent of its relationship to Allah, Praised and Exalted is He, the extent of its sanctity and that of the one to whom it is related in the light of his nearness to the Sublime One, the most High. What would you think of the sanctity of a soil that is the burial ground of someone who was killed in the Cause of Allah, of a supreme leader of His army who never flinched from defending His cause?

Surely it is the soil of one whom He loves, of one who invited others to Him, who led them to Him, who rose for His sake, who sacrificed his family and his own life and everything precious for Him, one who imperiled his blood for the sake of raising the status of His Commandments, for the dissemination of His Unity, so that His Commandments may rule, and so that His path and means may be firmly rooted.

 

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Is not a soil that symbolizes the signs of Tawhid and the defense of Tawhid to the end more worthy of prostrating upon? It surely invites one to be kind at heart, to be compassionate, to be affectionate and gentle.

 

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It is a soil fermented with the blood of the Master of the Youths of Paradise, a symbol of love for Allah and for His Messenger (P) and the trust left by Muhammad (P) among his Muslim nation as we are told by the Sunnah.

It is based upon both premises that we take out of the soil of Karbala’ such pieces to prostrate upon them just as the faqih of past generations, namely Masrooq ibn al-Ajda`, used to carry with him a block of baked clay taken out of the soil of sacred Medina to prostrate on. This man was the student of the righteous caliphate, the faqih of Medina and the teacher of the Sunnah.

 

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Far away from him to be charged of inventing a bid`a. Which of these premises causes us to really feel the pain of unfairness? Which one of them contradicts the call of the Holy Qur'an or the Sunnah of Allah and His Messenger (P)? Which one of them should we denounce and label as a bid`a? Which one of them violates reason, logic, or common-sense?

 

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Finally, such is our Husain (عليه السلام), and such is our love for him. Such is his mourning. Such is Karbala’ and its turbah: the piece of earth upon which we prostrate. Allah is our Lord, and our Sunnah and its tradition is the Sunnah of our Prophet (P) and its tradition, and to Allah does all Praise belong.

And what reason do we have not to believe in
Allah and in the truth that has come to us while
we earnestly desire that our Lord lets us join the
(ranks of) the good people?
(Holy Qur'an, 5:84)
And so that those who have been given the
knowledge may know that it is the truth from
your Lord, so that they may believe in it and
their hearts may be humbled before it. Most
surely Allah is the Guide of those who believe
in a straight path.
(Holy Qur'an, 22:54)

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/why-prostrate-karbalas-turba-yasin-t-al-jibouri

resetting body energy in islam by sojoud ( scientific experiment ) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKVsydPZjz0

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In the name of Allah.

Salamun alaikum. Welcome to shiachat islamic forum. I hope you enjoy it here.

BLESSED IS YOUR FRIEND for they admit they do not know certain things. Because, most of the time, people with less knowledge become arrogant and they suppose they know everything. So they judge and give fatwas according to their wills. A self proclaimed marja, if you will. On the other hand, this friend of yours admit, he does not know many things and he does not. We do not know either. That's why we study faith and religion. We are advised to seek knowledge from cradle to the grave. And InshaAllah we will. I wish your friend also accompanied you on shiachat. Because, like you and us, certainly he could learn a lot on this website. And I believe certain actions of his, is not that of the shia of Imam Ali. Because seeing the matters on your list, I believe he is affected by the ghulat/extremists "amongst" us.

AND BLESSED ARE YOU for you do not judge a nation (shia muslims) over what you hear about them. Rather you are meeting and talking to them with no intermediaries. So you are dodging the misinformation and disinformation out there. You are certainly one of the few believers who listen and obey Allah's order in this verse; "O you who have faith! If a fasiq (sinner/vicious person) brings you some news, verify it, lest you should visit [harm] on some people out of ignorance, and then become regretful for what you have done." (al-Hujurah, 6) I don't mean all those who spread rumours about shia muslims are fasiq themselves, but by repeating what they hear about the shias, they are joining the fasiq ones without knowing (unintentionally). And the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in a hadith which is recorded in sunni sources (I was a sunni, so I know) tells that; "It is enough falsehood for someone to speak of everything he hears." (Muslim, 8) So, most of those who spread lies about shia muslims, are those who repeat what they hear about them. And again, blessed are you, to investigate the truth about shia muslims.

And with your permission, I want to point out to you and to all of us that, first and foremost, we are all Muslims and Muslims believing in one God (tawhid) should come together as monotheists (muwahhideen) and form a united ummah (islamic wahdah/unity). And Islam is not limited to one sect, race or nation. Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Salafi etc. are all Islam and they need to be united on certain concepts such as Tawhid and Nubuwwah. This call of unity is there in the Holy Quran even to the people of the book. "Say: O people of the book! Come to a common word between us and you; that we worship no one but Allah.." See; the Holy Quran calls even the people of the book to unity, on the concept of monotheism/tawhid. And when this is the case ordered by Allah, why should we add extra conditions for unity among Muslims? Some say: "Oh no! You gotta believe in the superiority of such and such companion for us to unite!" I mean, is "Belief in the companions" one of the six articles of faith in sunni islam? No. So, why add an extra condition as an obstacle to the Islamic Unity. And by Islamic Unity, I don't mean you leaving sunnism and becoming shia or us leaving shia islam and become a sunni. Unity means you stay as what you are but act united in the social and religious platform.

So, again, Islam is not just limited to one sect, nation or tribe. And a sect (let's say sunnism) can not leave another sect of islam out and claim that they are the only people of jamaah (unity). No, that still would be and is sectarianism even though you might name it jamaah/unity. So, yes, the jamaah; i.e. people of unity are saved. But not those who ditch others and claim that they are the jamaah. Those who work for the unity of people on the common word of Tawhid are saved. And there are many shiite and sunni muslims alhamdolellah calling for unity. They will be saved.

And inshaAllah, we all do and will work for unity as ordained by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, there are some handicaps of unity. First; is the divide and conquer policy of the imperialists. Second; is the extremists of either sect (i.e. ghulat/akhbaris of shiite islam and wahhabis/takfiris of sunni islam). And Third; wait for it, is the TOOLS/AGENTS of the first group; showing you the texts, images, videos of the second groups (i.e. extremists of each other) in order to "prove" their point that; they are on the right path while the other sect is misguided. So; all these work hand in hand to undermine the Islamic Unity.

And while we (the mainstream sunni and shia muslims) are busy defending ourselves from the attacks of the extremists of the other side; we surely are kept away from diving deeper in the oceans of the irfan (gnosis) and hikmah (wisdom) and even akhlaq (morality). Such a sad reality we are in now. Anyway, as someone who has experienced a lot, may I kindly advise you to study the shia philosophy of the Islamic practices you already know and believe in; so that you dive into and benefit these oceans more. I mean you can still study islamic history and theology and decide for yourself but what I mean is your priority should be these oceans first.

I am stressing on this because I witnessed a lot of sad cases. People did not focus on their irfan/spirituality and got themselves lost in deciding who Mr. Better is (shia or sunni) while neglecting their journey and ibadah and servitude to God. So they ended up figuring out who Mr Better is according to their confined views but did not gain a single trait of the true sunni or shia of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt as.

So, I kindly suggest you carry on your daily practices while reading the "other" sect's views and philosophy behind these practices. And whether you stay a sunni, or become a shiite, or become a mixed sushi, always love the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt as.

Here are some booklet (you can download them as e-books) for you my friend and I don't know why but I assume you are such a great bookworm.

https://www.al-islam.org/radiance-secrets-prayer-muhsin-qaraati

https://www.al-islam.org/commentary-prayer-muhsin-qaraati

https://www.al-islam.org/spiritual-discourses-murtadha-mutahhari

https://www.al-islam.org/polarization-around-character-ali-ibn-abi-talib-murtadha-mutahhari

Believe me, these books won't try to convert you. I did not list the ones doing so. I mean well for your spiritual journey. And who knows maybe later, if you have some extra time, wou will read the others as well. I am always here inshaallah to accompany you my friend.

OK. Let's get back to your questions. Shall we? The shia muslim brethren here adressed your questions and I think you got the answers by now. But I want to add a few other points for these questions of yours;

On 5/19/2022 at 9:09 AM, mbinacut1 said:

1. According to my friend, ''Abu Bakr & Umar (رضي الله عنه) are in hell''. I have found this to be strange because isnt the Quran explicit in stating Abu Bakr & Omar (رضي الله عنه) are in heaven because Allah approves of them in Quran 48:18 & 9:100? Considering Allah is all knowing why would he say such things if they would steal the Caliphate, and lead the majority of muslims ''astray'' according to my friend.

3. According to my friend, Aisha (رضي الله عنه) deserves to be cursed, and it is completely allowed to curse her in Shia islam according to him (although he did admit that not all Shi'ites do it). But would that not go against Quran 33:6? The verse states '''The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers''', doesn't this mean that we have to view and treat all of the prophet's wives as our own mothers? And wouldn't Quran 24:10-26 prove that we are forbidden from slandering Aisha (رضي الله عنه)?

I don't know how your friend deduced that and claimed divine knowledge of the dwellers of heaven and hell but we don't even know whether ourselves will be in heaven or hell. So, I would not say that. No shia should. Especially when our maraji (Ayatollahs) have issued fatwas forbidding the treason/cursing to the revered figures of sunni brethren. So, it was wrong of him to say that. HE NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED. And you can show him the fatawa of maraji to do that. But if he does not care about the fatawa of maraji; you and I can deduce that he is not a mainstream usouli shia. Rather he is an akhbari, following his own whims. BUT, with all due respect; I also need to correct your beliefs as well;

A- I may be wrong about my deduction but I think you assume that all the believers who saw the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a sahabah/companion of the Prophet whereas it is not the case. If this is the case, I mean if you hold the view that, any muslim who had been in the presence of the Holy Prophet is a sahaba; I will direct you to an interesting hadith in sunni sources.

تَسُبُّوا أَصْحَابِي لاَ تَسُبُّوا أَصْحَابِي فَوَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَوْ أَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ أَنْفَقَ مِثْلَ أُحُدٍ ذَهَبًا مَا أَدْرَكَ مُدَّ أَحَدِهِمْ وَلاَ نَصِيفَهُ ‏"

Do not revile my Companions, do not revile my Companions. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if one amongst you would have spent as much gold as Uhud it would not amount to as much as one much on behalf of one of them or half of it. (Muslim, Arabic, book 44, 316)

This hadith is interestingly used by some to face the ghulat/extremist of the shia over their slenders. Though they are right and shia maraji/ayatollahs and we mainstream shiites are also right to call them not to slender the companions. Here's another fact that we can deduce from this sunni hadith.

WHO DID THE HOLY PROPHET ADRESS in this specific hadith? And on WHAT OCCASION did he do that?

I mean, did he foresee these ghulat? Or did he witness something in his lifetime and adressed the issue of that present to this present time?

The answer is the latter.

My dear brother. All the sunni history books reveal that some believers/muslims made fun of Abdullah ibn Masud (رضي الله عنه) . Abdullah bin Masud was short and very slim. And when he climbed up a palm tree, they (the very people you call sahaba/companions) saw his skinny legs and laughed and made jokes. And the Holy Prophet warned them and told them to not make fun of his companions. The hadith that strictly says "Do not revile my Companions, do not revile my Companions! By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if one amongst you would have spent as much gold as Uhud it would not amount to as much as one much on behalf of one of them or half of it." adresses the very same people sunnis call Sahaba/Companions today. So, you see, the adressees were Muslims around the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The Holy Prophet does not call them his companions. He warns them not to revile his companions one of whom was Abdullah bin Masud (رضي الله عنه).

So you see; the notion that every believer around the Holy Prophet was a companion/sahaba is wrong.

The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had lots of companions and in fact shia sources mention that there were three thousand blessed companions of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). But, most of them were forgotton because they did not get into politics. And sunnism today sadly focuses on the companions who were involved in politics only. Don't you wonder why some hadiths in sunni sources, goes like; "Abu Bakr came.. And then Umar came.. And then Uthman came.." It is clear they were all made up by the cholars of Umayyads to get people into thinking the legitimacy of whomever sits on the throne. As I said before; there were lots of truthful companions but heir stories are never shared. They are forgotton because they did not get into rivalry against Ahlulbayt in politics. But those few who were, suddenly made to the top of the companions list. Don't you wonder why all "the Ten whom Paradise was promised" were all political figures and fought one another?

So, anyway, it is clear from the historical event of muslims mocking Abdullah bin Masud (رضي الله عنه) and the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) warning them about his companions is; that not all Muslims who were in presence of the Prophet were companions. The title companions apply select few believers.

B- You are assuming that the general rules apply to all specific whereas it is not the case. Allah praises the immigrants and the helpers (muhajiroon and ansar) over what they have done. And what great traits they are indeed. (For someone to leave the beloved ones, houses, materials and homeland behind for the sake of religion. And for someone to host immigrants, share everything with them, give them houses, work and even leadership of the land). But HE does not praise the future exceptions. And it is also proven by other Quranic Verses.

O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing. (Al-Maidah, 54)

Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, and those who are with him are hard against the faithless and merciful amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in worship], seeking Allah’s grace, and [His] pleasure. Their mark is [visible] on their faces, from the effect of prostration. Such is their description in the Torah and their description in the Evangel. Like a tillage that sends out its shoots and builds them up, and they grow stout and settle on their stalks, impressing the sowers, so that He may enrage the faithless by them. Allah has promised those of them who have faith and do righteous deeds forgiveness and a great reward. (Al-Fath, 29)

It is clear from these verses that; the traits of companions of the Holy Prophet is that; they love and mercy one another and fight and do not show mercy the disbelievers. And the history tells us that there were fights amongst Muslims after the demise of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). So, it means that, some turned away from the religion and did what they did and got out of the fold of companionship. Thus, the wars. One can not claim both sides in a war, were still companions. Because the traits of companions is that they love one another.

And here are some sahih narrations in sunni sources, proving that, even the companions of the Holy Prophet might derail from the path and end up in hell.

 

أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ يَرِدُ عَلَى الْحَوْضِ رِجَالٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِي فَيُحَلَّئُونَ عَنْهُ فَأَقُولُ يَا رَبِّ أَصْحَابِي‏.‏ فَيَقُولُ إِنَّكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَكَ بِمَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ، إِنَّهُمُ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمُ الْقَهْقَرَى 

the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). (Bukhari Book 81, Hadith 174)

 

النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَيَرِدَنَّ عَلَىَّ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِي الْحَوْضَ، حَتَّى عَرَفْتُهُمُ اخْتُلِجُوا دُونِي، فَأَقُولُ أَصْحَابِي‏.‏ فَيَقُولُ لاَ تَدْرِي مَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ ‏"‏‏

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."‏ (Bukhari, Book 81, Hadith 170)

 

أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَيَرِدَنَّ عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ رِجَالٌ مِمَّنْ صَاحَبَنِي حَتَّى إِذَا رَأَيْتُهُمْ وَرُفِعُوا إِلَىَّ اخْتُلِجُوا دُونِي فَلأَقُولَنَّ أَىْ رَبِّ أُصَيْحَابِي أُصَيْحَابِي ‏.‏ فَلَيُقَالَنَّ لِي إِنَّكَ لاَ تَدْرِي مَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ ‏"

Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) surely said: Some persons from amongst my companions would turn to my Cistern; when I would see them and they would be presented to me, they would be detained in the way while coming to me. I would say: My Lord, they are my companions, they are my companions, and it would be said to me: You don't know what innovations they made after you. (Muslim, Book 43, Hadith 56)

 

أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ يَرِدُ عَلَىَّ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ رَهْطٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِي فَيُحَلَّئُونَ عَنِ الْحَوْضِ فَأَقُولُ يَا رَبِّ أَصْحَابِي‏.‏ فَيَقُولُ إِنَّكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَكَ بِمَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ، إِنَّهُمُ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمُ الْقَهْقَرَى ‏

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) surely said: "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades. (Bukhari, Book 81, Hadith 173)

 

So, you see, A- Not all the muslims who were in the presence of the Holy Prophet were companions. B- Even then, it does not guarantee that they all stayed as and continued to be companions after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) .

And if a person says that, "Even though they might have fought one another, they are all still companions. And they may be rewarded in heavens because what they did was ijtihad." And then I say, "When shia Muslims do research to find out who was right and who was wrong in order to decide which to follow; even though they might be wrong in their deductions, they still get reward and end up in heavens because what they do is also ijtihad."

One can not simply assume that "the ijtihad differences and even wars between companions can be excused and the ijtihad of the muslims in our time can not be". Rather the wrongs in our ijtihad can be excused more easily because, we are miles and centuries away from the presence of the Holy Prophet. Whereas the companions were in the presence of the Prophet and they are and will be held more accountable. Hence this verse; "...Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah. And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision." (al-Ahzab, 31) You see, the wives and companions of the Holy Prophet are and will be held more accountable, because they were in the Holy Presence of the Prophet. They saw him with their own eyes, heard his warnings with their own ears, with no intermediary. Whereas we hear him through lots of transmitters who may have made mistakes.

So, my dear friend. If a person hates Islam and Quran and the Prophet. If he has enmity towards Islam and Muslims and he swears/curses the companions, his abode is Hell. Just like Salman Rushdie, Charlie Hebdo etc. is.

However if a person, believes in Allah and the Holy Prophet and investigates the history for the sake of following the right way. Even though he might make mistakes, he will be excused. Because what he does is ijtihad.

I hope it helps. And feel free to ask any more questions.

Welcome again to shiachat.

Edited by islamicmusic
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On 5/20/2022 at 11:04 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

1) This hadith shows Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is searching for excuses not to accept this proposal which is wrong because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was never afraid of anyone and never liked that excuses be made rather than direct denial. 

Maybe Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used the reason of Umm Kulthum being a young girl because the real reason was that Umar was an evil person. But obviously the Imam didn't want to say that. 

On 5/20/2022 at 11:04 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

2) The second point says that Umer threatens to say that he will setup witnesses against Imam Ali for a false charge of theft which is wrong in the sense that no one could win from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in judicial matters and those who setup such Traps were themselves vanquished and Hazrat Umer knew that. 

Who said no one could win against Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Haven't you heard of the time when a Jew had the Imam's shield? The Imam took him to court but because he didn't have any evidence, the judge decided in favour of the Jew. Then the Jew was so shocked the the leader of the entire Muslim nation could lose a lawsuit to a Jew, and he converted to Islam. But the story shows that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) can be defeated in a lawsuit. 

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7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Maybe Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used the reason of Umm Kulthum being a young girl because the real reason was that Umar was an evil person. But obviously the Imam didn't want to say that. 

Imam was not afraid of Hazrat Umer like Prophet had declined hand of her daughter openly he could do that. 

 

7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Who said no one could win against Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Haven't you heard of the time when a Jew had the Imam's shield? The Imam took him to court but because he didn't have any evidence, the judge decided in favour of the Jew. Then the Jew was so shocked the the leader of the entire Muslim nation could lose a lawsuit to a Jew, and he converted to Islam. But the story shows that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) can be defeated in a lawsuit. 

Our narration for the event is different. In our narrations it is mentioned that the judge was weak to decide this matter and Imam criticized his decision but nevertheless accepted it reluctantly. Later on the jew admitted that he was wrong and returned the shield. So, he admitted he was wrong.

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1 hour ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Our narration for the event is different. In our narrations it is mentioned that the judge was weak to decide this matter and Imam criticized his decision but nevertheless accepted it reluctantly. Later on the jew admitted that he was wrong and returned the shield. So, he admitted he was wrong.

Salam Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has criticized judge for bad behavior  of judge with that man which judge called Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) with respect & praised him too much but on on the other hand he humilated   that man from people of book so therefor Imam Ali (عليه السلام) criticized  the judge & said to him that he must behave equally  between both of them them so when judge asked introducing  two wittness  for his claim which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stated that he has no witness for proving his claim  so therefore judge according  to law announced  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) as loser of judgment  when that man from people of book which see Imam (عليه السلام) as caliph has been obedient  toward law , he himself declared that shield belongs  to  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) which he has done this act to see that is  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) is that man that has been  predicted in Torah which by this incident  he became  sure about it , so then he accepted  Islam which also that man participated  in battle of Siffin then martyred as member of Imam's army but on the other hand that judge who has been Shuraih Al-Qadhi due to his corruption  in time of Yazid (la) has declared  that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is out of religion.

https://fa.shafaqna.com/news/679863/زره-حضرت-علی-ع-و-مرد-یهودی-به-روایت-آیت-ا/

https://www.porseman.com/article/داستان-زره-علی(ع)-نزد-مرد-مسیحی/181651

http://thaqalain.ir/زره-امام-علی-علیه-السلام-و-مرد-یهودی/

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has criticized judge for bad behavior  of judge with that man which judge called Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) with respect & praised him too much but on on the other hand he humilated   that man from people of book so therefor Imam Ali (عليه السلام) criticized  the judge & said to him that he must behave equally  between both of them them so when judge asked introducing  two wittness  for his claim which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stated that he has no witness for proving his claim  so therefore judge according  to law announced  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) as loser of judgment  when that man from people of book which see Imam (عليه السلام) as caliph has been obedient  toward law , he himself declared that shield belongs  to  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) which he has done this act to see that is  Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) is that man that has been  predicted in Torah which by this incident  he became  sure about it , so then he accepted  Islam which also that man participated  in battle of Siffin then martyred as member of Imam's army but on the other hand that judge who has been Shuraih Al-Qadhi due to his corruption  in time of Yazid (la) has declared  that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is out of religion.

https://fa.shafaqna.com/news/679863/زره-حضرت-علی-ع-و-مرد-یهودی-به-روایت-آیت-ا/

https://www.porseman.com/article/داستان-زره-علی(ع)-نزد-مرد-مسیحی/181651

http://thaqalain.ir/زره-امام-علی-علیه-السلام-و-مرد-یهودی/

 

 

Eventually, Mola Ali (عليه السلام) got back his shield.

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12 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Imam was not afraid of Hazrat Umer like Prophet had declined hand of her daughter openly he could do that. 

I never said he was afraid. I just said that maybe Imam Ali didn't want to insult Umar by saying "No, sorry, you're too evil to marry my daughter."

12 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Our narration for the event is different. In our narrations it is mentioned that the judge was weak to decide this matter and Imam criticized his decision but nevertheless accepted it reluctantly. Later on the jew admitted that he was wrong and returned the shield. So, he admitted he was wrong.

He admitted he was wrong, but that wasn't the judge's final decision. Anyway, if Umar got witnesses to say that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stole, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would have no other choice than to accept the punishment. So he allowed Umar to marry his daughter instead of Umar destroying the reputation of the Prophet's successor. 

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14 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Eventually, Mola Ali (عليه السلام) got back his shield.

Salam shield has not been important for Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) but on the other hand important matter for him has been following  rules of Islam in similar  fashion of normal people  in opposition  to his opponents who they knew themselves  higher than Islamic  law which it has caused spreading injustice  & discrimination  & racism which victims of it have been people  of book & ne non Arab Muslims especially  Iranians which it has started since era of Umar then revived by cursed Ummayids  after martyrdom  of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) which only person who accepted  applying rules of Islam & human justice between muslim rulers has been Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

Quote

This story has been narrated in historical and hadith books and the plaintiff was Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his job in judging the dispute was a kind of respect for religious minorities and respect for their civil rights, which is not only in this case, In other stories, too, such a thing has been observed from him, and the justice and observance of the civil rights of minorities by his majesty  is not surprising.

https://www.shia-news.com/fa/news/208719/موضوع-زره-امام-علی-علیه-السلام-که-در-دستان-مردی-یهودی-مشاهده-شد-چیست

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

I never said he was afraid. I just said that maybe Imam Ali didn't want to insult Umar by saying "No, sorry, you're too evil to marry my daughter."

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) already have an example before Him whereby Prophet (pbuhhp) rejected proposals for Hazrat fatima Zahra (عليه السلام) instead of finding excuses. So this is not an authentic hadith 

 

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

He admitted he was wrong, but that wasn't the judge's final decision. Anyway, if Umar got witnesses to say that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stole, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would have no other choice than to accept the punishment. So he allowed Umar to marry his daughter instead of Umar destroying the reputation of the Prophet's successor. 

Imam Ali could not produce witnesses and not that he was wrong rather judge was corrected by the Jew's restoration of shield that his decision was not correct. 

As far Hazrat umar, he already made Hazrat Abbas and Hazrat Ali witnesses of his conspiracy besides this Imam Ali knew the art of examination of witnesses. So, Hazrat umar could not afford such huge discord to face a capable opponent at bigger stage as Hazrat umer already said about incident during allegiance of hazrat Abu bakar when Imam Ali denied to pay allegiance that it was a biggest fitna and Allah turned down this fitna due to one person that was Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

The umm-e-kulsoom married to Hazrat umer died in his life while daughter of Imam Ali survived even karbala. So, you are wrong here too.

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam shield has not been important for Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) but on the other hand important matter for him has been following  rules of Islam in similar  fashion of normal people  in opposition  to his opponents who they knew themselves  higher than Islamic  law which it has caused spreading injustice  & discrimination  & racism which victims of it have been people  of book & ne non Arab Muslims especially  Iranians which it has started since era of Umar then revived by cursed Ummayids  after martyrdom  of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) which only person who accepted  applying rules of Islam & human justice between muslim rulers has been Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

https://www.shia-news.com/fa/news/208719/موضوع-زره-امام-علی-علیه-السلام-که-در-دستان-مردی-یهودی-مشاهده-شد-چیست

I know Ashvazdange that for Imam Ali, it was important to follow Islamic principles but the result of this case reveals that judge could not decide the case correctly which is proved by restoration of shield to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

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On 5/19/2022 at 11:09 AM, mbinacut1 said:

According to my friend, ''Abu Bakr & Umar (رضي الله عنه) are in hell''. I have found this to be strange because isnt the Quran explicit in stating Abu Bakr & Omar (رضي الله عنه) are in heaven because Allah approves of them in Quran 48:18 & 9:100? Considering Allah is all knowing why would he say such things if they would steal the Caliphate, and lead the majority of muslims ''astray'' according to my friend

Salam, 

You must be very careful while reading the verses of Quran. Nowhere in Quran it is mentioned that Abu Bakr and Umar are in heaven. 

لَقَدْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ فَعَلِمَ مَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ فَأَنْزَلَ السَّكِينَةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَثَابَهُمْ فَتْحًا قَرِيبًا {18}

[Shakir 48:18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory,

Here is the verse, please know that what was the reason of this allegiance? On what basis the allegiance was given?

I tell you, the allegiance was made that in case of battle with the Maccans, believers will not show their backs to them i.e., they will not flee from battle ground. How many of them have fled in the battles of Khandaq, Hunain etc? Please bother yourself to know that. 

Secondly, the history is also mentioning the fact that at this very place, Umar expressed his doubts about the Prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Now while reading the Quran, specifically the quoted verses, you must also keep your eyes on these verses too:

وَيَوْمَ يَعَضُّ الظَّالِمُ عَلَىٰ يَدَيْهِ يَقُولُ يَا لَيْتَنِي اتَّخَذْتُ مَعَ الرَّسُولِ سَبِيلًا {27}

[Shakir 25:27] And the day when the unjust one shall bite his hands saying: O! would that I had taken a way with the Messenger.

يَا وَيْلَتَىٰ لَيْتَنِي لَمْ أَتَّخِذْ فُلَانًا خَلِيلًا {28}

[Shakir 25:28] O woe is me! would that I had not taken such a one for a friend !

لَقَدْ أَضَلَّنِي عَنِ الذِّكْرِ بَعْدَ إِذْ جَاءَنِي ۗ وَكَانَ الشَّيْطَانُ لِلْإِنْسَانِ خَذُولًا {29}

[Shakir 25:29] Certainly he led me astray from the reminder after it had come to me; and the Shaitan fails to aid man.

Who was that ظالم and who he taken as friend? Who was his friend? The verse has not mentioned any name here but with the history one can reach to that zalim and his friend too. In general sense it can also be applied to everyone who abandons the teachings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and take his whims or Satan as friend.

يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتُ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا انْظُرُونَا نَقْتَبِسْ مِنْ نُورِكُمْ قِيلَ ارْجِعُوا وَرَاءَكُمْ فَالْتَمِسُوا نُورًا فَضُرِبَ بَيْنَهُمْ بِسُورٍ لَهُ بَابٌ بَاطِنُهُ فِيهِ الرَّحْمَةُ وَظَاهِرُهُ مِنْ قِبَلِهِ الْعَذَابُ {13}

[Shakir 57:13] On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say to those who believe: Wait for us, that we may have light from your light; it shall be said: Turn back and seek a light. Then separation would be brought about between them, with a wall having a door in it; (as for) the inside of it, there shall be mercy in it, and (as for) the outside of it, before it there shall be punishment.

يُنَادُونَهُمْ أَلَمْ نَكُنْ مَعَكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنَّكُمْ فَتَنْتُمْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ وَتَرَبَّصْتُمْ وَارْتَبْتُمْ وَغَرَّتْكُمُ الْأَمَانِيُّ حَتَّىٰ جَاءَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ وَغَرَّكُمْ بِاللَّهِ الْغَرُورُ {14}

[Shakir 57:14] They will cry out to them: Were we not with you? They shall say: Yea! but you caused yourselves to fall into temptation, and you waited and doubted, and vain desires deceived you till the threatened punishment of Allah came, while the archdeceiver deceived you about Allah.

فَالْيَوْمَ لَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنْكُمْ فِدْيَةٌ وَلَا مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا ۚ مَأْوَاكُمُ النَّارُ ۖ هِيَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ {15}

[Shakir 57:15] So today ransom shall not be accepted from you nor from those who disbelieved; your abode is the fire; it is your friend and evil is the resort

Who are these people? Who expressed his desire to give everything in ransom for getting rid from hellfire? Why fire was made their "Mowla"? Is there anyone whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Apostle made Mowla? Do you know the hadith of Ghadir? 

"Whomsoever I am his master, this Ali is his master"

من كنت مولا فهذا علي مولا

And do you know as to why Sunni's try to twist the meaning of Mowla when it comes to that clear command? 

Now the next verse you quoted:

وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ {100}

[Shakir 9:100] And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flOw, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement

Abu Bakr was indeed among the ones who accepted divine message in the early stage. But he disobeyed the very command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) given at Ghadir, he disobeyed Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) when Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was seriously ill and commanding them to go with Jesh e Usama. Abu Bakr was among those who were delaying to act upon Prophets orders and finally Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) expressed his anger in them. Do you know the verse which was revealed when these two (Abu Bakr & Umar) raised their voices? Here it is:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَنْ تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ {2}

[Shakir 49:2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.

See how deeds can become null & void even by raising the voice. So disobeying the very command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would mean what? Specially the command which was given at Ghadir declaring Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Mowla of believers. And the commands where He is mentioning Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his wazeer, caliph. I don't think that the disobedient ones will be counted as sabiqoon. 

I am not going to answer your every question. Just making your willingness of reaching to the truth awake, so that you study more and more with the sole intention of reaching to the truth and you will Insha Allah reach there.

Wassalam!

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1 hour ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I know Ashvazdange that for Imam Ali, it was important to follow Islamic principles but the result of this case reveals that judge could not decide the case correctly which is proved by restoration of shield to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Ruler is one of the people

Quote


Before Ali attained to the caliphate it was likely that the Umayyad governments might be converted into kingship - rather it had already been so converted. The rulers and other persons at the helm of affairs were of the view that the caliphate was their special right and only they were entitled to it on account of their belonging to a noble family. In order to strengthen their hold and establish a firm government they considered all unlawful acts like tribal bias, formation of groups, bribes etc. to be lawful.

According to them a ruler was the master of the lives, property and honour of the ruled and could exploit them in any manner he liked, without the oppressed persons having any right of protest. They viewed the common people as quadrupeds whom they could load with the heaviest burden and beat as much as they wished.

During the time of Uthman the Umayyad governors got an opportunity of despotic rule and they availed of it to their heart's content. They endeavoured to strengthen the Umayyad rule in all parts of the Islamic territories. They bribed the Shaykhs and dignitaries of the Arabian tribes heavily to win their support. They also gave full freedom to the persons in position to oppress the common man in any manner they liked.

 

Quote

Ali wrote to one of his governors as under: “Your holding this office does not entitle you to accumulate wealth or to take revenge from any person. Your only duty is that you should destroy falsehood and revive truth”.

In the eyes of Ali son of Abu Talib rulership and caliphate did not mean that the ruler should sit on the throne of dignity, strengthen his power and make his position the means of enslaving the people. He says: “Generosity and munificence is a greater source of love and affection than consanguinity and kinship. There is no greatness like meekness and no virtue like knowledge”.

 

Quote

As and when the Commander of the Faithful entrusted the rulership of a province, a territory or a city, to a person he wrote a testament and gave it to him so that he might read it out before the people. If the people of that place accepted the testament it constituted a treaty between them and the ruler which neither of them could violate. If the treaty was violated by either party it was necessary for the Imam to punish the party concerned and to remove the ruler from his office in case he happened to be the violator.

https://www.al-islam.org/voice-human-justice-sautul-adalatil-insaniyah-george-jordac

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15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) already have an example before Him whereby Prophet (pbuhhp) rejected proposals for Hazrat fatima Zahra (عليه السلام) instead of finding excuses. So this is not an authentic hadith 

Well those people didn't say to the Prophet 'if you don't marry Fatima to us, we'll get people to testify that you stole.' But even if they did, that has nothing to do with how authentic the hadith is. 

15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Imam Ali could not produce witnesses and not that he was wrong rather judge was corrected by the Jew's restoration of shield that his decision was not correct. 

As far Hazrat umar, he already made Hazrat Abbas and Hazrat Ali witnesses of his conspiracy besides this Imam Ali knew the art of examination of witnesses. So, Hazrat umar could not afford such huge discord to face a capable opponent at bigger stage as Hazrat umer already said about incident during allegiance of hazrat Abu bakar when Imam Ali denied to pay allegiance that it was a biggest fitna and Allah turned down this fitna due to one person that was Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

The umm-e-kulsoom married to Hazrat umer died in his life while daughter of Imam Ali survived even karbala. So, you are wrong here too.

So you do admit that an Umm Kulthum bint Ali married Umar. Even if it wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, why is this hadith wrong? The hadith could easily mean that Umar came to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) looking for his daughter Umm Kulthum's hand in marriage, just not Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. 

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8 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

why is this hadith wrong? The hadith could easily mean that Umar came to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) looking for his daughter Umm Kulthum's hand in marriage, just not Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. 

Salam wahabists  say that because  Amir almuminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) has given his daughter  to Umar according  to this narration  so then there was no problem  between  them even they loved each other so therefore  Shias are wrong about criticizing  Umar for beating  lady Fatima (sa) which leads to her martyrdom  & usurping right of Amir almuminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) because  Imam has given  his daughter  to Umar wilingly according  to this narration .

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Marriage to 'Umar b. al-Khattab

According to historical books, Umm Kulthum, the daughter of 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a), married 'Umar, the second Caliph.[15] They married in Dhu l-Qa'da, 17/638.[16]

In contrast, some of Shi'a scholars such as al-Shaykh al-Mufid[17] denied this marriage and Aqa Buzurg Tihrani mentioned the books which is written about its denial.[18]

 

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In Karbala

Some Maqtal books (narrative accounts of the Battle of Karbala) have reported the attendance of Umm Kulthum in the Battle of Karbala. In these books, she has been frequently mentioned beside Zaynab (a) and her sufferings have been quoted. Majlisi says, "After Imam's martyrdom, when the tents were burned, the earrings of Umm Kulthum, Husayn's (a) sister, were taken out forcibly".[19] She was a narrator of the Battle of 'Ashura and delivered a sermon in the meeting held by Ibn Ziyad in Kufa. In his book, Ibn Tayfur has quoted a sermon from Umm Kulthum which was delivered in Kufa when the Ahl al-Bayt of the Prophet (s) were held captive.[20] Also 'Allama Majlisi has quoted poems and speeches of Umm Kulthum in the meeting held by Ibn Ziyad.[21]

On the contrary, some other sources indicate that Umm Kulthum who attended the Battle of Karbala was not the daughter of Lady Fatima (a).[22] Sayyid Muhsin al-Amin says, "Imam 'Ali (a) had two daughters called Umm Kulthum, one of them was Umm Kulthum al-Kubra, the daughter of Lady Fatima (a), who passed away before the Battle of Karbala, and the other one, whose mother was a servant, attended the Battle of Karbala and delivered a sermon in Kufa. She was the wife of Muslim b. 'Aqil".[23]

 

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Event of 'Ashura and the Succeeding Events

  1. Sayyid b. Tawus says:

"When Husayn (a) bade his family a final farewell, Umm Kulthum cried out, "O Aba 'Abd Allah! Woe on us after you!" Then, Imam (a) consoled her, Zaynab (a), and Al-Rabab bt. Imri' al-QaysRabab".[30]

  1. When the Ahl al-Bayt (a) were held captive and the people of Kufa brought food for children, Umm Kulthum cried out, "O people of Kufa! It is forbidden to give alms to the Ahl al-Bayt of the Prophet (s)"[31].
  2. There is a tradition according to which when the caravan of captives entered Syria, Umm Kulthum wanted Shimr to move the heads of martyrs away so that people would be attracted to them and would look at the captives less[32].

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Umm_Kulthum_bt._al-Imam_Ali_(a)

 

 

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Well those people didn't say to the Prophet 'if you don't marry Fatima to us, we'll get people to testify that you stole.' But even if they did, that has nothing to do with how authentic the hadith is. 

 

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‘When Umar came to make the marriage proposal, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali ((عليه السلام).) told him: She is a young girl.

Thereupon, Umar met Abbas and told him: What is wrong with me? Do I have any defect?‖

Abbas said: Why are you saying that?

Umar said: ―I asked your nephew for his daughter‘s hand in marriage, but he has turned me down. I swear by Allah! I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.‘ Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.’3

In view of the above details and assuming that the narrations are true and authentic, we say: ―The opponents cannot use these narrations to base their arguments and prove their side of the story or to make us accept anything in this regard. This is because the utmost conclusion that can be drawn from these narrations is that the marriage contract took place under threat and intimidating promises. It was only after these threats that Umm Kulthum went to Umar‘s house. When Umar was killed, the Imam ((عليه السلام).) went to Umm Kulthum and took her to his house.

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On the other hand, perhaps this saying of Imam Ja‘far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) i.e., Ali ((عليه السلام).) held her hand and took her to his house is a proof of what some scholars have stated that Umar died before Umm Kulthum attained the age of puberty.

Therefore, what merit does this proposal and the imposed marriage which was characterized by threat and intimidation does it earn Umar? What defect and flaw does such a proposal and marriage exact on the Commander of the Faithful, Ali ((عليه السلام).) and the Household of the Prophet, peace be upon them? Can such a marriage be an indication of the two sides being sincere friends of each other?

When Umar threatens the Commander of the Faithful, Ali ((عليه السلام).), in the manner demonstrated by the narrations, to usurp and get this girl, how may his threats have been for usurping the caliphate which forcibly silenced the Commander of the Faithful ((عليه السلام).) and his followers compelling them to pay allegiance to him?! In fact, we can say that this usurpation was meant to eliminate the effects of that usurpation.

https://www.al-islam.org/critical-assessment-umm-kulthums-marriage-umar-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani/section-4-umars

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Well those people didn't say to the Prophet 'if you don't marry Fatima to us, we'll get people to testify that you stole.' But even if they did, that has nothing to do with how authentic the hadith is

As already explained Hazrat umar already admitted that they survived huge fitna when Imam Ali refused to pay allegiance to Hazrat Abu bakar, it is clear he could not afford another fitna and secondly Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not instructed by Prophet to have patience over every kind of oppression against him so this hadith seem unauthentic because Mola Ali wasn't afraid of umar.

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

So you do admit that an Umm Kulthum bint Ali married Umar. Even if it wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, why is this hadith wrong? The hadith could easily mean that Umar came to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) looking for his daughter Umm Kulthum's hand in marriage, just not Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. 

No, I don't admit that such umm-e-kulsoom was daughter of Imam Ali but of another person for which I invite you to listen to Majalis and know the person. Hence, this hadith is wrong. 

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12 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

So you do admit that an Umm Kulthum bint Ali married Umar. Even if it wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, why is this hadith wrong? The hadith could easily mean that Umar came to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) looking for his daughter Umm Kulthum's hand in marriage, just not Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had only one daughter named Umm-e-Kulsoom who also survived karbala. Where as Umm-e-Kulsoom married to Hazrat Umer is said to have died in his lifetime.

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@-Rejector-

To add further, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he will never be unjust to snatch away someone's right the size of which be equal to the piece held by Ant's mouth. In the light of this quote, Imam Ali:

a) could not marry his daughter to the person who angered and injured Syeda Fatima Zahra;

b) could not marry his daughter to the person who was not her equal (kuff).

c) could not marry his daughter because of a simple threat while Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not care about their threats when he (عليه السلام) buried Prophet (PBUHHP) and Lady Fatima (عليه السلام) without the presence of the three caliphs.

 

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13 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

it is clear he could not afford another fitna

Then why did he threaten?

13 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not instructed by Prophet to have patience over every kind of oppression against him so this hadith seem unauthentic because Mola Ali wasn't afraid of umar.

Yeah, actually, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did tell him to have patience over what would come after his death.

11 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had only one daughter named Umm-e-Kulsoom who also survived karbala. Where as Umm-e-Kulsoom married to Hazrat Umer is said to have died in his lifetime.

Then who's the other Umm Kulthum? 

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

To add further, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he will never be unjust to snatch away someone's right the size of which be equal to the piece held by Ant's mouth. In the light of this quote, Imam Ali:

a) could not marry his daughter to the person who angered and injured Syeda Fatima Zahra;

b) could not marry his daughter to the person who was not her equal (kuff).

c) could not marry his daughter because of a simple threat while Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not care about their threats

Umar forced Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to give him Umm Kulthum in marriage. We see that Umar married someone named "Umm Kulthum". It wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, it was another daughter named "Umm Kulthum".

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

he (عليه السلام) buried Prophet (PBUHHP) and Lady Fatima (عليه السلام) without the presence of the three caliphs.

Who said he buried the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) without the presence of the three caliphs?

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7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Who said he buried the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) without the presence of the three caliphs?

Salam It has been confirmed from Sunni source which they have not attended in burial of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

Thanks to @Muslim2010

Quote

We read in various Sunni works:

  حدثنا ابن نمير عن هشام بن عروة عن أبيه أن أبا بكر وعمر لم يشهدا دفن النبي (ص) ، كانا في الانصار فدفن قبل أن يرجعا.

Ibn Numair narrated form Hisham bin Urwah who narrated from his father (Urwa) that Abu Bakr and Umar were not present at the time of burial of the Prophet (s), they were with Ansar and He was buried before they had returned.
Al-Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 8 page 58
Kanz ul Umal, Volume 5 page 45 Hadith 14139
 

Abdullah bin Numair:  Ibn Hajar said: ‘Thiqah’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p542), Dahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Al-Kashif, v1 p604). Hisham bin Urwah: Ibn Hajar said: ‘Thiqah’ (Taqrib al-tahdib, v2 p267), Dahabi said: ‘Abu Hatim said Thiqah’ (Al-Kashif, v2 p337). Urwah bin al-Zubair: Ibn Hajar said: ‘Thiqah’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p671), Dahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kashif, v2, p18).

 

Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani and Allamah Badruddin al-Aini records:

لأنه لم يحضر ذلك لاشتغاله بأمر البيعة

‘He (Abu Bakar) didn’t attend (the funeral) because he was busy with Baya’

Why was Abu Bakr absent from the Prophet's burial?

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Then why did he threaten?

It is unauthentic hadith. If this would have happened, Imam Ali would not have cared about it like he didn't care before.

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Yeah, actually, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did tell him to have patience over what would come after his death.

He did tell him have patience but he didn't tell him to be unjust and give her daughter's hand to an oppressor.

 

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Then who's the other Umm Kulthum? 

It's not clear from narrations, it might be a fabrication as well because there is no account of her children as well.

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Umar forced Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to give him Umm Kulthum in marriage. We see that Umar married someone named "Umm Kulthum". It wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, it was another daughter named "Umm Kulthum".

Umar could not force Imam Ali as he could not force him before. The personality with the name umm-e-kulsoom married to umer was not daughter of Imam Ali. Imam Ali's daughter survived karbala but the wife of umar died in his life according to narrations.

 

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Who said he buried the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) without the presence of the three caliphs?

History says bro.

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Then why did he threaten?

It is unauthentic hadith. If this would have happened, Imam Ali would not have cared about it like he didn't care before.

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Yeah, actually, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did tell him to have patience over what would come after his death.

He did tell him have patience but he didn't tell him to be unjust and give her daughter's hand to an oppressor.

 

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Then who's the other Umm Kulthum? 

It's not clear from narrations, it might be a fabrication as well because there is no account of her children as well.

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Umar forced Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to give him Umm Kulthum in marriage. We see that Umar married someone named "Umm Kulthum". It wasn't Umm Kulthum bint Fatima, it was another daughter named "Umm Kulthum".

Umar could not force Imam Ali as he could not force him before. The personality with the name umm-e-kulsoom married to umer was not daughter of Imam Ali. Imam Ali's daughter survived karbala but the wife of umar died in his life according to narrations.

 

9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Who said he buried the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) without the presence of the three caliphs?

History says bro that three caliphs were at Saqifa and could not attend burial of prophet.

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On 5/26/2022 at 5:15 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

It is unauthentic hadith.

According to who?

On 5/26/2022 at 5:15 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

he didn't tell him to be unjust and give her daughter's hand to an oppressor.

1. He (the Prophet) didn't tell him (Imam Ali) not to.
2. Imam Ali allowing Umar to marry Umm Kulthum isn't going against the Prophet's words. 

On 5/26/2022 at 5:15 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Umar could not force Imam Ali as he could not force him before.

He can force Imam Ali in these circumstances:

1. Umar has the power over the Muslim Ummah
2. Imam Ali does not want to cause fitnah. 

On 5/26/2022 at 5:17 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

The personality with the name umm-e-kulsoom married to umer was not daughter of Imam Ali. Imam Ali's daughter survived karbala but the wife of umar died in his life according to narrations.

Agreed.

On 5/26/2022 at 5:17 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

History says bro that three caliphs were at Saqifa and could not attend burial of prophet.

You were right, my bad. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

According to who?

According to characteristics of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which are against content of the hadith.

7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Imam Ali allowing Umar to marry Umm Kulthum isn't going against the Prophet's words. 

It is going against Prophet's sunnah. Prophet (PBUHHP) rejected proposals of syeda Fatima Zahra on the basis that there were no equal among them except Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Imam Ali could also see that Hazrat Umer was not equal of her daughter. Thus, it is a fabrication added later on.

Secondly, this hadith missed one important point that for a marriage to occur, the consent of bride is essential which was not taken according to this hadith. So its futile attempt to prove its authentic.

7 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

He can force Imam Ali in these circumstances:

1. Umar has the power over the Muslim Ummah
2. Imam Ali does not want to cause fitnah. 

This might be your ideology. Where as Islam and Imam Ali disagrees with you. If Imam Ali had agreed to this, he would have paid allegiance to these three caliphs while his disassociation from them despite their forceful attitude prove them otherwise that they could not harm Imam Ali for it will start civil disturbance. Besides that Imam Ali's burial of Prophet Muhammad (pbuhhp) and Lady Fatima prove that those caliphs did not possess that much control always rather they were afraid of Imam Ali in those circumstances.

Edited by Borntowitnesstruth
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