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In the Name of God بسم الله

The possible overturning of Roe vs. Wade is a great thing (IMO)

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Personally, I think the possible overturn of Roe Vs. Wade is an excellent thing. Islam does not allow you to kill your children in the second or third trimester unless the mother’s life is in danger. Far-left liberals abuse their “right” to abortion, and they know this.

It’ll be interesting what post roe vs wade will look like. Maybe it’ll teach idiots who want to sleep around to not have unprotected sex. You have sex, deal with the consequences of a possible baby. Adoption, not abortion. I’m also looking forward to the stripping of so-called LGBTQ “right” to same-sex marriage. 
 

Your thoughts?

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Posted (edited)

As far as I know, no US state has ever allowed second or third trimester abortions, except in medical emergencies.  

Islam does not allow abortion, but the unborn is consdered a person around 4 months.  In the state where I live, abortion is legal up to the 14th week, which is 3rd month since the weeks count from 2 weeks before conception.  

I am personally opposed to abortion, but I'm more opposed to oppression and abuse.  

 

7 hours ago, Guest Window said:

I’m also looking forward to the stripping of so-called LGBTQ “right” to same-sex marriage. 

I'm sorry you've been hurt by gay people marrying each other.  May you find comfort and healing.  

Edited by notme
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11 hours ago, Guest Window said:

Personally, I think the possible overturn of Roe Vs. Wade is an excellent thing. Islam does not allow you to kill your children in the second or third trimester unless the mother’s life is in danger. Far-left liberals abuse their “right” to abortion, and they know this.

It’ll be interesting what post roe vs wade will look like. Maybe it’ll teach idiots who want to sleep around to not have unprotected sex. You have sex, deal with the consequences of a possible baby. Adoption, not abortion. I’m also looking forward to the stripping of so-called LGBTQ “right” to same-sex marriage. 
 

Your thoughts?

I echo your thoughts. Honestly I'm surprised that this even managed to happen given the flood of support for abortions from the left and right. 

4 hours ago, notme said:

I'm sorry you've been hurt by gay people marrying each other.  May you find comfort and healing.  

A Muslim hates haram. Do not passive aggressively give her slack for disliking that which Allah, the One who created marriage, has forbidden. Especially since this sister has revealed to us in the recent past that she's dealing with some serious life problems a bit of tact is obligated onto you.

 

@window 

I think it's curious how none of this is anything new under the sun. Every motion presented and supported by left was already in practice thousands of years ago, by the definition of the word you can't call anything they do "liberal." We dealt with the LGBT in the city of Lot, we dealt with people who killed babies in the Prophet's era, sex  work was an accepted and respectable profession in the Prophet's era, nothing is liberal about any of this. Somehow in the past we managed to civilize ourselves, and now we're regressing to be like apes as our morals crumble. I ask Allah to protect us and our children from the shaitan.

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14 hours ago, Guest Window said:

Islam does not allow you to kill your children in the second or third trimester unless the mother’s life is in danger.

which marja is this according to? I believe Ayatollah Sistani allows this only in the first trimester. If the mother's life is at risk in the later stages then as far as I am aware he does not allow abortion

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1 hour ago, Uni Student said:

which marja is this according to? I believe Ayatollah Sistani allows this only in the first trimester. If the mother's life is at risk in the later stages then as far as I am aware he does not allow abortion

Prove it or delete. Protecting a life overrides basically everything. 
This is slanderously wrong misinformation. 

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4 minutes ago, kadhim said:

Prove it or delete. Protecting a life overrides basically everything. 
This is slanderously wrong misinformation. 

As I said I may be wrong.

Question: Is a mother allowed to abort the feotus, if she does not want it while the soul has not yet entered it and there is no serious danger to the mother’s life?

Answer: She is not allowed to do that, except if the continuation of the pregnancy would considerably harm her health or put her in an unbearable difficulty, then it is permissible before the soul enters the feoutus (i.e. the fourth month).

Does the last line of this fatwa in bold mean that it is not permissible after the first trimester?

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Fatwa of Ayatollah Khamenei

Q12. What is the ruling in the matter of abortion itself? Is the ruling different if keeping the baby poses a danger to the mother’s life?
A. Aborting the fetus is ḥarām by Islamic law. It is not permissible at any count, barring pregnancy which poses danger to the mother’s life. In this case, there is no objection to terminating the pregnancy before the soul has entered the fetus. Should the spirit enter the fetus, it is not permissible to abort it, even if the pregnancy spells danger to the mother’s life, except in the event where carrying on with the pregnancy could prove fatal to both the fetus and the mother, and there is no way to save the baby’s life but it is possible to save the mother’s life through abortion.
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I guess it makes sense if all lives are seen as equal, then definitely killing a life to save one is worse than possibly having a life die to save the other. 

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3 hours ago, Guest A display name said:

Should the spirit enter the fetus, it is not permissible to abort it, even if the pregnancy spells danger to the mother’s life, except in the event where carrying on with the pregnancy could prove fatal to both the fetus and the mother, and there is no way to save the baby’s life but it is possible to save the mother’s life through abortion.

It’s unclear what exactly the distinction he is trying to make here is. 

Before viability (24 weeks+), a threat to the mother by definition endangers the fetus as well because there is no way to support a fetus before that without the mother. Before viability there is no way to save the fetus but the mother can be saved. So these two cases are inseparable  before viability. 

After viability I guess the option of an emergency C-section and NICU support appears as an alternative to abortion if the mother is endangered, assuming she is well enough for the surgery. Although the earlier that happens before full term, the harder it is for the pre-term baby. I’m sure a lot of mothers-to-be in this sort of difficult situation would be willing to trade a reasonable amount of risk to themselves, and even a somewhat unreasonable level of risk to themselves, to give their baby the best shot at life. But that sort of risk trade-off is really best made on a case by case basis by the mother-to-be in consultation with her physicians. 

The Khamenai fatwa I still am not fully satisfied with—it seems to give more weight to the baby than the woman—but it starts to give reasonable room to deal with the ethical complexity of reality. It shows an attempt at balance. 

The Sistani fatwa on the other hand is just … bad. Sistani is really not a good reference on medical ethics. 

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16 hours ago, notme said:

Islam does not allow abortion

We don't want women resorting to coat hangers like in the bygone era—neither do we want people killing fetuses willy-nilly due to sexual carelessness—the sickness of abortion on demand has even spilled over to Muslim-majority countries like Turkey and Tunisia—Islam takes a balanced approach with regards to abortion (as it does to all things in general)—Life is scared and should be safeguarded but under certain extenuating circumstances (i.e. rape, incest etc.) it is allowed.

5 hours ago, Guest A display name said:

Should the spirit enter the fetus, it is not permissible to abort it, even if the pregnancy spells danger to the mother’s life, except in the event where carrying on with the pregnancy could prove fatal to both the fetus and the mother

With regard to the life of the mother, Muslims generally and universally agree that the mother's life takes precedence over the life of the baby—this is because the mother's life is considered actual and existent while the fetus' life is seen as merely "potential"—Sayyid Khamenei's fatwa is indeed an unusual break from the norm—the consensus among Twelver jurists is that abortion is allowed when it has been medically substantiated that the life of the mother is in danger—SOURCE: Hedayat, K. M.; Shooshtarizadeh, P.; Raza, M. (2006). "Therapeutic abortion in Islam: Contemporary views of Muslim Shi'i scholars and effect of recent Iranian legislation". Journal of Medical Ethics. 32 (11): 652–657.

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Actually I was mistaken.  The state where I live allows abortion up to the 25th week.  I knew a child who was born at 25 weeks.  

This is the latest that any state allows which has a codified llimit.  I'm opposed to aborting a 25 week old baby except in cases of medical emergency in which no other option is reasonable.  

In cases where the pregnancy is less than 3 months, abortion is still a tragedy, but it might be needed in some cases..I do not trust government to make medical decisions.  I don't fully trust doctors either but I trust them a lot more than politicians. 

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On 5/10/2022 at 12:56 AM, Uni Student said:

As I said I may be wrong.

Question: Is a mother allowed to abort the feotus, if she does not want it while the soul has not yet entered it and there is no serious danger to the mother’s life?

Answer: She is not allowed to do that, except if the continuation of the pregnancy would considerably harm her health or put her in an unbearable difficulty, then it is permissible before the soul enters the feoutus (i.e. the fourth month).

Does the last line of this fatwa in bold mean that it is not permissible after the first trimester?

Salam, 

In a thread I made some years ago, we discussed this problem. The above mentioned fatwa relates to the situation when there is no danger to the mother's life. Where there is danger, he forbids it based on obligatory precaution i.e. his followers have to turn to another marja in that regard. 

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7 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Salam, 

In a thread I made some years ago, we discussed this problem. The above mentioned fatwa relates to the situation when there is no danger to the mother's life. Where there is danger, he forbids it based on obligatory precaution i.e. his followers have to turn to another marja in that regard. 

So he absolves himself of responsibility? 

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My ex-husband, a "good Sayyid Shia man from a good family" threatened to poison me to induce an abortion because he wanted a son, not a daughter, after the 20th week when I got the ultrasound and the doctor could tell she was a girl.   

My point is that there are ways that people will take, outside of sanitary and safe medical environments, if they feel that they need an abortion.  We can counsel, but I don't think we should criminalize, because women will die, and dead women don't generally carry babies to term. 

(Obviously without consent of the woman, it would be criminal assault.)

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, notme said:

So he absolves himself of responsibility? 

No, he (ha) says that given all the rational and textual evidence before him, and after applying all the relevant principles, he cannot decide either for or against a particular ruling for the situation with absolute certainty and conviction, but leaning on the side of caution, such and such is his ruling, so his followers can either act on the precaution or turn to some other marja, whom they consider the next most knowledgeable. 

He's not absolving himself of responsibility; he's just not fully sure if such and such is the ruling in the given situation, and advising caution while leaving the option to get a second opinion. 

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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On 5/9/2022 at 3:55 PM, notme said:

I'm sorry you've been hurt by gay people marrying each other.  May you find comfort and healing.  

Every good Muslim is hurt by such immoral act. Are you not hurt by this act? If not then perhaps you are not aware of its harsh consequences. I do not know what benefit is in your mind which is caused by this act while we see that it only results in destruction of person and family.

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2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Every good Muslim is hurt by such immoral act. Are you not hurt by this act? If not then perhaps you are not aware of its harsh consequences. I do not know what benefit is in your mind which is caused by this act while we see that it only results in destruction of person and family.

Ok.  

There are far worse things in the world that need attention than what two consenting adult strangers are doing in private. 

First let's focus on abolishing racism, misogyny, capitalism, and other forms of oppression in our Muslim communities before we start worrying about others.  

I'm sure there's a hadith equivalent to Jesus's (عليه السلام) advice to remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about someone else's speck. 

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5 hours ago, notme said:

Ok.  

There are far worse things in the world that need attention than what two consenting adult strangers are doing in private. 

First let's focus on abolishing racism, misogyny, capitalism, and other forms of oppression in our Muslim communities before we start worrying about others.  

I'm sure there's a hadith equivalent to Jesus's (عليه السلام) advice to remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about someone else's speck. 

This is not a lesser evil than others. This needs to be criticized equally like other evils are. I am wondering why you take it as if its less dangerous thing while we are watching how idiots come to streets and support this menace without knowing that they are nurturing it and spreading this disease causing boys to appear like girls and girls appearing like boys while there is rant that women don't men as its thing of past.

Have you not read ahadith which say that the time near the end of occultation men will dress like women and women like men and men will be after men and women after women. These are great mischieves upon which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has promised punishments. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2022 at 6:55 AM, notme said:

As far as I know, no US state has ever allowed second or third trimester abortions, except in medical emergencies.  

Islam does not allow abortion, but the unborn is consdered a person around 4 months.  In the state where I live, abortion is legal up to the 14th week, which is 3rd month since the weeks count from 2 weeks before conception.  

I am personally opposed to abortion, but I'm more opposed to oppression and abuse.  

 

I'm sorry you've been hurt by gay people marrying each other.  May you find comfort and healing.  

The generally accepted position amoung the supporters of Roe is that a baby or fetus is only a 'person' once the baby is viable outside the womb. This usually happens sometime in the late second or third trimester. 

The generally accepted position of those who oppose Roe, i.e. the Christian groups and their allies, is that a baby is a 'person' at conception. As Muslims, and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), we have a position that is different from both of these. 

The unborn is considered a 'person' when the soul enters. This happens when the 'ovum is fertilized and becomes stuck to the wall of the uterus' (See below for the opinion of Sayyid Fadlallah((رضي الله عنه)). Most marjaa' have a similar opinion and this is based on Quran and clear teachings of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). This 'sticking' usually occurs approx 6 days after fertilization. 

In the uterus, the cells continue to divide, becoming a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst. The blastocyst implants in the wall of the uterus about 6 days after fertilization.

Source: 

https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/women-s-health-issues/normal-pregnancy/stages-of-development-of-the-fetus#:~:text=In the uterus%2C the cells,%2C usually two (twins).

See also

https://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/Article?contentid=329&language=English

 

Here is the view of Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه)

In accordance to the view of the late Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah: Abortion is prohibited in Islam starting from the stage in which the ovum is fertilized and becomes stuck to the wall of the womb, since at this stage the life of the fetus starts. Thus, abortion is prohibited because life should be respected from its very beginning. We mean by life here, the life in its normal circumstances that are found in the mother's body.

There are two jurisprudential views regarding abortion:

Firstly: "If pregnancy would cause the woman a severe and abnormal danger, rather than the normal dangers that are due to pregnancy, or if pregnancy would cause her a serious difficulty that she could not tolerate, in this case, some religious jurists, including our teacher, Sayyed Abu Al-Kasim El-Khoei, permit abortion on the basis of the Quranic rule: “and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion” (22:78). We agree with him on this ruling because continuing the pregnancy would cause a real danger and a serious damage to the woman's body, while Allah did not impose on man any harmful or difficult ruling.

Secondly: "If the pregnancy puts the mother's life in real danger, some religious jurists, such as Sayyed El-Khouei, permit the woman to protect herself even through undergoing abortion and we agree with them because the problem here is not a matter of a primary killing, rather it is a matter of protecting oneself. Some describe this case by saying that it is like when you are sleeping and an imprudent person throws himself on you with all his weight, and thus he constitutes a danger on your life in which you cannot save yourself except by pushing him away in a way that he may die. In this case, it is permissible for you to do so in order to defend yourself". On the other hand, Some religious jurists say that they are waiting till Allah rules on this issue and they do not give any opinion regarding it.

But, if both, the mother and her fetus are in danger, in this case, the mother has the right to protect herself by undergoing abortion and no one else has the right to do so, whether the doctor, the child's guardian or the religious scholar, except if the latter permits so in a ruling. It is also permissible for the doctor to abort her if her life would be saved from the absolute danger and there should not be any precautionary ruling on this matter.

But, if the woman who became pregnant as a result of committing adultery or by a temporary marriage (Mutaa or another kind of marriages), sees that the pregnancy puts her in a difficulty and danger from the society she lives in, in this case, it is permissible for her to abort herself. Thus, if continuing the pregnancy puts her life in a danger, or brings her a big shame that is usually unbearable, abortion is permissible but on condition that the fetus should not be in a stage in which he is considered to be given the spirit, unless if the woman's life is in an absolute danger.

Besides, it is impermissible to abort the child who is born as a result of adultery, just because he is an illegitimate child and there is no justification for that, except in one case, that is if the mother is afraid for her life, such as if her parents might kill her.

In some cases, it is permissible for the woman to undergo abortion. Hence, if we consider that she was raped, abortion is prohibited if that causes her only a bad feeling. But, if that may also cause a social disgrace that is usually unbearable due to the social circumstances; in this case, abortion is permissible on condition that the fetus is not considered to be given the spirit. In other cases, a woman may be raped or deceived and thus she became pregnant and would be killed, in this case, it is permissible for her to undergo abortion to save her life.

Source: 

http://english.bayynat.org/FiqhLaws/Fiqh_abortionlegitimacy .htm

So our view, as Muslims, follwers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), and our marjaa' is different from Roe vs Wade, i.e. that abortion is allowed up to x number of weeks regardless of circumstances. At the same time, a total ban on abortion and criminal prosecution based on this total ban is also something we are against. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Posted (edited)

Salam, 

Before the discussion gets derailed towards something else, let me state an observation on the question of legislation and its presence or absence. 

Since the inception of liberal democratic governance, experience has shown that legality and public morality have between them a complicated relationship at best. Yes, laws do speak something about the morals of the concerned society, and they also have an impact on public conscience and behavior, but still, a linear cause-effect relationship cannot be construed between them, nor should it be thought that laws alone can regulate popular morality. Murder, racism, tax-evasion are all legal offences, but racial hate crimes and discrimination are systemically entrenched, honour killings and revenge murders  also continue to have social sanction to an extent, and the lawyers, lawmakers,bureaucrats and the legal system itself help people evade taxes and launder money (the 'trust' and 'charity' provisions). Closer home, we know that alcohol, interest on money/usury and pre-marital romantic involvements between men and women (girlfriends/boyfriends) are strictly prohibited by our faith, yet people keep finding excuses to engage in these sins. 

The point is, while laws make something legally difficult or easier to do, they do little to influence public morality. This law to, even if it is struck down, will make abortion after a certain time frame difficult of course, but don't expect that people won't find ways to bypass the legal prohibition,or that it will cause any substantial dent in the pro-abortion/free-sex discourse. You are up against an enemy who is too formidable to be taken on by these piecemeal measures. If you want to really see substantive change, you will have to engage with the popular socio-political discourse, where your detractors have already captured the narrative. Traditional Christian and Jewish groups are doing this already. It's time that the Muslims started doing this too, rather than being politically and intellectually lazy and blaming everything on the 'evil West'; Orthodox Christians and Jews are also a 'Western' constituency, and their intellectuals and  activists are doing their job. It's about time you did the same too. Only then can you even expect to get a hearing. Not by merely hammering things through legislation, or celebrating a law being struck down. 

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

The generally accepted position amoung the supporters of Roe is that a baby or fetus is only a 'person' once the baby is viable outside the womb. This usually happens sometime in the late second or third trimester. 

The generally accepted position of those who oppose Roe, i.e. the Christian groups and their allies, is that a baby is a 'person' at conception. As Muslims, and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), we have a position that is different from both of these. 

The unborn is considered a 'person' when the soul enters. This happens when the 'ovum is fertilized and becomes stuck to the wall of the uterus' (See below for the opinion of Sayyid Fadlallah((رضي الله عنه)). Most marjaa' have a similar opinion and this is based on Quran and clear teachings of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). This 'sticking' usually occurs approx 6 days after fertilization. 

In the uterus, the cells continue to divide, becoming a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst. The blastocyst implants in the wall of the uterus about 6 days after fertilization.

Source: 

https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/women-s-health-issues/normal-pregnancy/stages-of-development-of-the-fetus#:~:text=In the uterus%2C the cells,%2C usually two (twins).

See also

https://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/Article?contentid=329&language=English

 

Here is the view of Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه)

In accordance to the view of the late Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah: Abortion is prohibited in Islam starting from the stage in which the ovum is fertilized and becomes stuck to the wall of the womb, since at this stage the life of the fetus starts. Thus, abortion is prohibited because life should be respected from its very beginning. We mean by life here, the life in its normal circumstances that are found in the mother's body.

There are two jurisprudential views regarding abortion:

Firstly: "If pregnancy would cause the woman a severe and abnormal danger, rather than the normal dangers that are due to pregnancy, or if pregnancy would cause her a serious difficulty that she could not tolerate, in this case, some religious jurists, including our teacher, Sayyed Abu Al-Kasim El-Khoei, permit abortion on the basis of the Quranic rule: “and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion” (22:78). We agree with him on this ruling because continuing the pregnancy would cause a real danger and a serious damage to the woman's body, while Allah did not impose on man any harmful or difficult ruling.

Secondly: "If the pregnancy puts the mother's life in real danger, some religious jurists, such as Sayyed El-Khouei, permit the woman to protect herself even through undergoing abortion and we agree with them because the problem here is not a matter of a primary killing, rather it is a matter of protecting oneself. Some describe this case by saying that it is like when you are sleeping and an imprudent person throws himself on you with all his weight, and thus he constitutes a danger on your life in which you cannot save yourself except by pushing him away in a way that he may die. In this case, it is permissible for you to do so in order to defend yourself". On the other hand, Some religious jurists say that they are waiting till Allah rules on this issue and they do not give any opinion regarding it.

But, if both, the mother and her fetus are in danger, in this case, the mother has the right to protect herself by undergoing abortion and no one else has the right to do so, whether the doctor, the child's guardian or the religious scholar, except if the latter permits so in a ruling. It is also permissible for the doctor to abort her if her life would be saved from the absolute danger and there should not be any precautionary ruling on this matter.

But, if the woman who became pregnant as a result of committing adultery or by a temporary marriage (Mutaa or another kind of marriages), sees that the pregnancy puts her in a difficulty and danger from the society she lives in, in this case, it is permissible for her to abort herself. Thus, if continuing the pregnancy puts her life in a danger, or brings her a big shame that is usually unbearable, abortion is permissible but on condition that the fetus should not be in a stage in which he is considered to be given the spirit, unless if the woman's life is in an absolute danger.

Besides, it is impermissible to abort the child who is born as a result of adultery, just because he is an illegitimate child and there is no justification for that, except in one case, that is if the mother is afraid for her life, such as if her parents might kill her.

In some cases, it is permissible for the woman to undergo abortion. Hence, if we consider that she was raped, abortion is prohibited if that causes her only a bad feeling. But, if that may also cause a social disgrace that is usually unbearable due to the social circumstances; in this case, abortion is permissible on condition that the fetus is not considered to be given the spirit. In other cases, a woman may be raped or deceived and thus she became pregnant and would be killed, in this case, it is permissible for her to undergo abortion to save her life.

Source: 

http://english.bayynat.org/FiqhLaws/Fiqh_abortionlegitimacy .htm

So our view, as Muslims, follwers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), and our marjaa' is different from Roe vs Wade, i.e. that abortion is allowed up to x number of weeks regardless of circumstances. At the same time, a total ban on abortion and criminal prosecution based on this total ban is also something we are against. 

Glad that you brought this up, brother. These are the nuances that get lost when we dive into polemics without factoring in what our own understanding of the issue at hand is first. That's why more important than taking sides in these polemics is to be aware of our own legal position in the matter. 

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On 5/9/2022 at 4:38 PM, kadhim said:

Wow. I dug into this deeper to confirm, and was unpleasantly surprised to find this is actually accurate. I stand corrected.

Wow.

That is just … malevolently awful. Shameful. Astaghfirullah.

I make tabarrrah of that fatwa. 

That is just disqualifyingly bad. 

This is actually really surprising. I don't necessarily disagree, with the idea that there may be some option available in instance of rape or death of the mother. But 3 months is actually a pretty long time. At 2 months a fetus has a head, arms, legs, eyes and feet and a heart beat etc.

This is surprising.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Dubilex said:

Can't believe there are people calling themselves "muslims" and yet supports gay marriage and abortions. Obviously, they're not muslim countries and we need to respect the laws and customs of the land. But to actively support the atheistic LGBT movement that wants to groom your kids, impose their illusion of 100+ genders, that's completely against Islam. Not to mention supporting killing babies in the womb. Woke left will never get satisfied. Next up, I guarantee they want to have the right to kill infants

I don't know what it will take for muslims to realise that the woke left aren't our allies. They pay lip service to muslims, but their end goal is to indoctrinate and groom your kids away from Islam. Apparently all it takes for the woke left to get muslims on their side is to put some palestinian flags on their Twitter profile and write "Free Palestine!" on their social media

Brothers @Borntowitnesstruth , @guest 2025 and @Dubilex

Our Prophet (S) foretold all of this. The signs are not even some distant dystopian imagination anymore, they are here and in our face. 

In these times, holding on to our deen will be like holding on to burning coal. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give those of who are steadfast on His deen the will, strength and patience to keep fighting till our last breaths, to go down fighting, and to die upon the message of the Thaqalayn, so that when we see the Prophet (S) on the Day of Accounting, we can beg for his intercession by saying, "Ya Rasoolallah, we weren't around when the people of Ta'if flung stones at you, but we were around when the kuffar and the munafiqeen were flinging stones at your religion; we stood in the way to defend it and incurred wounds in the process; take us wretched sinners under your mantle! "

Every ridicule, every insult that is hurled at you should be worn as a badge of honour. It is medal for your gheerah for the deen. Don't let it die down. Sufficient is the faith in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , His Prophet (SAWA), and his Purified Progeny (AMS). 

For them is the world to win and its people to please. For us are Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the hereafter. 

'And from the darkness as it spreads' [113:3]

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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2 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

What's with this satanic attempt to twist the Quran to appease the LGBT? Do people like you think that by repeating this satanic and stupid opinion that it will prevail over the truth? How blind are you to deny that the people of Lot were even homosexuals?

Don't moralize to me, you defender of evil. The akhlaq of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) extends to all, even them. But the forbiddance of evil is incumbent upon you, you and those like you are transgressors.

So the akhlaq of Imam Ja'far (a) taught you to label me as a defender of evil and a transgressor? How ironic.

Anyhow, I doubt you have even read the chapter of Lot because if homosexuality was the only thing you took away from it, you're quite behind in your understanding of Arabic and the Qur'an. If you're going to criticize something, at least be aware of the different approaches. But you're not going to do that, are you? Because for you, if a text seemingly criticizes a man having sex with another man, then apparently that applies to any man having sex with any other man. Did you ever consider the fact that these hooligans were husbands to women, father to children, that they were what we call "heterosexuals", and - despite that - they were often indulging in sex with other men (usually without their consent) just because it was exotic and they liked to sexually experiment? Maybe the Qur'an was actually criticizing that instead of a man simply falling in love with another man or a woman holding hands with another woman. Next time you read the Qur'an, try to understand certain things like scenarios and human fitra. Because if you're gonna sit here and say "well, Islam has the solution to all human problems", but can't provide a solution for some of the most basic desires that humans face, your views are not going to add up and you're just going to have to resort to attacking people on a personal level instead of having an intelligent discussion. 

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19 hours ago, notme said:

Ok.  

There are far worse things in the world that need attention than what two consenting adult strangers are doing in private. 

First let's focus on abolishing racism, misogyny, capitalism, and other forms of oppression in our Muslim communities before we start worrying about others.  

I'm sure there's a hadith equivalent to Jesus's (عليه السلام) advice to remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about someone else's speck. 

This downplays the effect that the LGBT movement is having on the religion, its followers, and especially its youth. Capitalism isn't destroying Islam, Western sexual ethics is

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2 hours ago, Uni Student said:

Capitalism isn't destroying Islam, Western sexual ethics is

I disagree, but it's so off topic, I'm going to suggest we just agree to disagree on this for now.  

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23 hours ago, Ibn-e-Muhammad said:

So the akhlaq of Imam Ja'far (a) taught you to label me as a defender of evil and a transgressor? How ironic.

Anyhow, I doubt you have even read the chapter of Lot because if homosexuality was the only thing you took away from it, you're quite behind in your understanding of Arabic and the Qur'an. If you're going to criticize something, at least be aware of the different approaches. But you're not going to do that, are you? Because for you, if a text seemingly criticizes a man having sex with another man, then apparently that applies to any man having sex with any other man. Did you ever consider the fact that these hooligans were husbands to women, father to children, that they were what we call "heterosexuals", and - despite that - they were often indulging in sex with other men (usually without their consent) just because it was exotic and they liked to sexually experiment? Maybe the Qur'an was actually criticizing that instead of a man simply falling in love with another man or a woman holding hands with another woman. Next time you read the Qur'an, try to understand certain things like scenarios and human fitra. Because if you're gonna sit here and say "well, Islam has the solution to all human problems", but can't provide a solution for some of the most basic desires that humans face, your views are not going to add up and you're just going to have to resort to attacking people on a personal level instead of having an intelligent discussion. 

Didn't even bother reading that wall of satanic trash that you wrote. Don't want to do wudhu again after exposing my eyes to verbal najasa.

Quite the shame what people will try to do to the religion of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). You should have seen what the ummah did in the 20th century, as they tried to twist and conform Islam to communism. Now this is simply the next chapter and I hope it is the last or one of the last.

Quote

 

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا تُفْسِدُوا۟ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." 2:11

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5 hours ago, Uni Student said:

This forum has been having way too many unfruitful discussions revolving around LGBT issues lately :furious:

People who only engage in homosexual physical interactions have no need for abortion.  

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6 hours ago, Uni Student said:

This forum has been having way too many unfruitful discussions revolving around LGBT issues lately :furious:

What does that have to do with Roe vs Wade ? 

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15 hours ago, Ibn-e-Muhammad said:

The world does not revolve around you, Guest 2025. Sure, I was addressing you, but just in case you didn't notice, there are thousands of people here besides you who might stumble across my comments one day and gain a different perspective.

You are the type that refuses to have a thoughtful exchange, but clearly loves to exchange on a personal level. If you don't have time, do not respond. Otherwise, stop lying about not having time, because it seems to me that you do have all the time in the world to act holier-than-thou. So much for following Sayeda Fatima (s).

Dear "reformer",

With a heavy heart I am sorry to inform you that I have, as with your other posts, popped your satanic trash comment into the bin. Maybe I'll read it later when I'm in the mood for a laugh. Go waste someone else's time, this is quite frankly beneath me.

 

8 hours ago, Uni Student said:

This forum has been having way too many unfruitful discussions revolving around LGBT issues lately :furious:

Well someone has to prepare the stage for dajjal, right? Let's thank these diligent puppets of shaitan who, knowingly or unknowingly, are hastening the appearance of the Imam of the Zaman (عليه السلام). They're laughable now, but in the future the status quo will change, and you will hear sheikhs on mimbars saying the people of Lot weren't actually  homosexuals. People forgot that the shaitan has been actively scheming and plotting to ruin us since the creation of the first human, dedicating his life to leading as many humans astray as possible. But I think someone needs to have a word with him though because all this bid3a happens to be perfectly Islamic, is that guy even doing anything anymore?

Who knew that, all along, the ancient religion of Fatimatul Zahraa (عليه السلام) just happened to fit modern neo-liberalism like a hand to a glove? Throughout the centuries all of these clashing ideologies have come and gone, but finally at long last Islam is reunited with its long lost pair. 

We will be put through many filters in the end of times, to distinguish the true believers. Maybe I'll get sifted out in a future filter, probably one of hunger or fear, but I am proud that I and some of the brothers and sisters here did not get sifted out of this particular filter. I won't die on level 1.

But hey, no hard feelings for them. I'm sure we'll laugh about all this in the upcoming Shiachat pride parade.

 

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Posted (edited)

Cleaned up Off Topic posts. 

 

There is some posts going around that assert that Sayyid Sistani allows abortion up to four months. This is absolutely false, here are the facts from his website. 

https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01121/

 

Question: I have a medical illness, and have become pregnant recently, under what circumstances is an abortion allowed?

Answer: Abortion is not allowed after the implantation of the [fertilized] ovum [on the lining of the womb], except if the mother’s life is in danger, and in this case, it would be permissible to abort the foetus as long as the soul has not entered into it (i.e. before the end of 4 months); after the entering of the soul, it is not permissible, as an obligatory precaution.

So the 'morning after pill' (prostaglandin) would be allowed if it is taken a few hours possibly up to a few days after intercourse, since it takes 6 to 10 days for the event of implantation to occur. Any other type of procedure or medication to end the pregnancy after that point (implantation) is haram, except in certain cases, posted above and in previous posts. This is according to all marjaa' that I am aware of, including Sayyid Sistani and Sayyid Fadallah((رضي الله عنه)). If brothers and sisters would like further details on the cases that are exception, please consult your marjaa. Sayyid Sistani has a Q&A on this issue in Englsih at the link above. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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