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In the Name of God بسم الله

The prayer Jesus the Messiah taught

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Hi There

Jesus the Messiah taught his followers a prayer during his time on earth it is faithfully recorded in the Trustworthy Injil Matthew chapter 6

‘This, then, is how you should pray:

‘“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from the evil one.

@Nad_M says in another thread

Isnt it surprising that the Lord's prayer taught by Jesus himself (as opposed to every other prayer that others taught to say in Jesus’ name), never mentioned Jesus, nor vicarious atonement, nor him as messiah, nor him as intermediary, nor any trinity, among anything else Christological? This foundational prayer is more anti-christian than any passage one may find in the entire Bible, or the Quran. Besides the striking lack of all Christologies, it undermines the notion that temptation is the product of inherent human depravity and satanic influence. Rather it is God, who is perfectly righteous, whom the worshiper asks 

"not to lead us into temptation". 

It further destroys the Pauline concept of vicarious atonement, opening the way to forgiveness through one's own effort 

This is a very bold and interesting claim since it is a prayer which has been part of the liturgy of the Christian church since it's inception. 

I am not sure where this prayer is "anti-Christian"  It contains reference to God being Father, it refers to God's kingdom which was the core teaching of Jesus and is refered to in the teaching of the rest of the New Testament.  It calls on a life of forgivness, which is one of the key consiquenses of the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.  It recognises God's power of evil.

We also need to remember that Jesus the Messiah taught this prayer before his death and resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit on his followers, so it is bound to have a different perspective and Cristology, howeber, that does not make it anti-Christian.

This prayer has given many people strength and direction in life and faith.  I believe if we pray it with sincerity it will transform our lives as we put each request into practice with the help of God our loving Father.

Does Islam offer an equivilant prayer of worship, suplication, submission and intercession?

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6 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Does Islam offer an equivilant prayer of worship, suplication, submission and intercession?

Hi you can find many equivalent  or higher than this prayer in Shia Dua books likewise Sahifa Sajjadia & etc

https://www.duas.org/sajjadiya/sajjadiya.htm

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin

for example Supplication Against Satan

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8 minutes
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17) His Supplication Against Satan

(17) وَ كَانَ مِنْ دُعَائِهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ إِذَا ذُكِرَ الشَّيْطَانُ فَاسْتَعَاذَ مِنْهُ وَ مِنْ عَدَاوَتِهِ وَ كَيْدِهِ

His Supplication when he Mentioned Satan and Sought Refuge from him and from his Enmity and Trickery

1- O God,
we seek refuge in Thee
from the instigations of the accursed Satan,
his trickery, and his traps,
from trust in his false hopes, his promises,
his delusions, and his snares,

2- and lest he should make himself crave
to lead us away from Thy obedience
and to degrade us through our disobeying Thee,
and lest what he has shown us as beautiful be beautiful for us
and what he has shown us as detestable weigh down upon us.

3- O God, drive him away from us through Thy worship,
throw him down through our perseverance in Thy love,
and place between him and us a covering that he cannot tear away
and a solid barrier that he cannot cut through!

4- O God, bless Muhammad and his Household,
distract Satan from us with some of Thy enemies,
preserve us from him through Thy good guarding,
spare us his treachery,
turn his back toward us,
and cut off from us his trace!

5- O God, bless Muhammad and his Household,
give us to enjoy guidance
the like of his misguidance,
increase us in piety
against his seduction,
and make us walk in reverential fear
contrary to his path of ruin!

6- O God, assign him no place of entrance into our hearts
and do not allow him to make his home in that which is with us!

7- O God, cause us to recognize the falsehood with which he tempts us,
and once Thou hast caused us to recognize it,
protect us from it!
Make us see what will allow us to outwit him,
inspire us with all that we can make ready for him,
awaken us from the heedless slumber of relying upon him,
and help us well, through Thy giving success, against him!

8- O God, saturate our hearts with the rejection of his works
and be gentle to us by destroying his stratagems!

9- O God,
bless Muhammad and his Household,
turn his authority away from us,
cut off his hope from us,
and keep him from craving for us!

10- O God, bless Muhammad and his Household,
and place our fathers, our mothers, our children, our wives,
our siblings, our relatives,
and the faithful among our neighbours,
male and female,
in a sanctuary impregnable to him,
a guarding fortress, a defending cave!
Clothe them in shields protective against him
and give them arms that will cut him down!

11- O God, include in that everyone who
witnesses to Thee as Lord,
devotes himself sincerely to Thy Unity,
shows enmity toward him
through the reality of servanthood,
and seeks help from Thee against him
through knowledge of the divine sciences!

12- O God, undo what he ties,
unstitch what he sews up,
dislocate what he devises,
frustrate him when he makes up his mind,
and destroy what he establishes!

13- O God, rout his troops,
nullify his trickery,
make his cave collapse,
and rub his nose in the ground!

14- O God,
place us in the ranks of his enemies
and remove us from the number of his friends,
that we obey him not when he entices us
and answer him not when he calls to us!
We command everyone who obeys our command
to be his enemy
and we admonish everyone who follows our prohibition not to follow him!

15- O God, bless Muhammad,
the Seal of the prophets and lord of the emissaries,
and the folk of his house,
the good, the pure!
Give refuge to us, our families, our brothers,
and all the faithful, male and female,
from that from which we seek refuge,
and grant us sanctuary from that through fear of which
we seek sanctuary in Thee!

16- Hear our supplication to Thee,
bestow upon us that of which we have been heedless,
and safeguard for us what we have forgotten!
Through all this bring us into the ranks of the righteous
and the degrees of the faithful!
Amen, Lord of the worlds!

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin/17-his-supplication-against-satan

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9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi There

(I remember reading this prayer in primary school, (although the wording was a tiny bit different). We used to say "Our Father who art in Heaven...", but I always thought it was "Our Father who aren't in Heaven..." :ko::hahaha:)

Anyway, besides my pointless blabbering, even though I obviously reject the idea of the trinity and Jesus (عليه السلام) being God/God's son, but I don't think this prayer is 'anti-Christian', per se. Just because it doesn't mention Jesus being the son of God or the trinity, doesn't mean it's against it. Like the Quran doesn't mention Simon, successor of Jesus, but that in no way means that it is against him. 

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On 5/2/2022 at 5:32 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi you can find many equivalent  or higher than this prayer in Shia Dua books likewise Sahifa Sajjadia & etc

Thanks for these examples, They have some importantb requests.  However, they are not in the Qur'an - do they have the authority of scripture?

The prayer Jesus the Messiah taught is recorded in books which the Followers of Jesus see as having divine authority for life and conduct.

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On 5/2/2022 at 8:09 AM, -Rejector- said:

We used to say "Our Father who art in Heaven...", but I always thought it was "Our Father who aren't in Heaven..."

Yes the older English wording is a bit different.  I can understand why, as a Muslim, you might say "Aren't in heaven"

The idea of seeing God as Father is an amazing picture of acknowledging the community of believers "Our Father".  And also of acknowledging the protection, care and provision that God gives.  These characteristics of our loving God are so beautifully encapsulated in the phrase "Our Father"

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44 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I can understand why, as a Muslim, you might say "Aren't in heaven"

I didn't even have any interest in religion back then which makes it even funnier. I just had serious understanding issues. 

45 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

These characteristics of our loving God are so beautifully encapsulated in the phrase "Our Father"

Agreed. We see the same thing in Islam with the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Fatima Al-Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said,

"Muhammad and Ali are the two fathers of this [Muslim] nation. They sustain and support the nation. If the people obey them, they will rescue them from everlasting punishment. If the people act in harmony with their commands, they will make lawful for them the everlasting bounties."

(Source: Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 23, Pg. 259)

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On 5/3/2022 at 10:01 PM, -Rejector- said:

If the people obey them, they will rescue them from everlasting punishment.

This is a very high position to place a person.  Can a human being rescue us from the consiquenses of rejecting God?

The prayer Jesus the Messiah taught describes who The Father is,  The Father is in heaven.  This points to power and authority over all creation.  So "Our Father in heaven" talks about an intimate relationship with the powerful God - "in heaven" is not about distance or separation.

The prayer goes on and says "May your name be kept holy"  So although God can be known as Father, we are reminded to worship and come before him with awe and respect.

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14 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

This is a very high position to place a person.  Can a human being rescue us from the consiquenses of rejecting God?

It is a very high place, no doubt. But the intercession from the Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali isn't for those who reject God, it's for those who believe in God, yet they are sinners (i.e. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrianists, etc). For example, if I become an atheist, the Prophet Muhammad or Imam Ali don't need to intercede for me, and if God wills, He will put me in Hell (God forbid). However, if I'm a Muslim who believes in God but commits sins, there are many people who can intercede for me, other than the Prophet and the Imam, such as Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Imam Hussain, Imam Mahdi, and other holy personalities. 

Also bear in mind that if God wants me to go to Hell, I'm going to Hell, and no one can stop that. Like the Quran says, God is the master of the day of Judgement. All power, on that day, shall be for him. May God protect us all on that day. 

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On 5/5/2022 at 8:49 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Father is in heaven.  This points to power and authority over all creation.  So "Our Father in heaven" talks about an intimate relationship with the powerful God - "in heaven" is not about distance or separation.

Hi this is paradoxical  because  in your word you limit presence  of Father (God,Allah...) just to heaven in similar fashion of his creation but on the other hand you say that he is powerful which has no relation to distance  or separation which at start you have mentioned  him as a powerless creature  in heaven.

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On 5/1/2022 at 10:57 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I am not sure where this prayer is "anti-Christian"

We're not talking about the lack of Christological references in terms of labels, but in terms of concepts. The prayer is far removed from the ideas established by the Pauline mouvement, the creeds of the Church Fathers and later councils. Not only are those concepts absent but every sentence of the prayer clashes with mainstream Christian tenets. For example vicarious atonement, not only isnt it mentioned by name or implicitly as a concept, but in addition we have Jesus, who is supposed to be the embodiment of that notion, refuting it "forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us". No need for Jesus, forgiveness is attained through one's own efforts. The idea of vicarious atonement stems from the notion of human depravity; none may claim righteousness on his own due to a sinful nature that pollutes every deed and thought. Yet Jesus undermines that notion too; temptation isnt the product of inherent human depravity and satanic influence. Rather it is God, who is perfectly righteous, whom the worshiper asks "not to lead us into temptation". Jesus teaches his followers to begin the prayer by calling upon "our" Father who is in heaven, not to the divine son who is on earth. Nothing distinguishes Jesus from a regular believer in terms of sonship to the Father. The same fatherhood that applies to him applies to the others. It is the Father's name only that is to be hallowed, His will is to be done, and He is the Sustainer of the devotees, including Jesus "Give us today our daily bread". 

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On 5/6/2022 at 7:59 AM, -Rejector- said:

there are many people who can intercede for me,

What do you mean by intercede or intercession?  For an intercessor to be effective the person needs to have influence and position before the one they come before.

God is Holy, all powerful and separate/different from his creatures.  Our intercessor before God needs to have authority to stand in God's presence with nothing getting in the way of his pleading for us.

If the person comes with failings of their own it makes their intercession invalid because they need an intercessor themselves.  We need to be careful that we don't credit God with a disregard of the seriousness of our shameful acts and the sin we do that makes us dirty.  All the people you mention as possible intercessors, except Jesus the Messiah, never claimed to have any right in and of themselves to stand before God.  But Jesus the Messiah declared "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.  No one comes to The Father (God) but through me." (John 14:6)  In saying this he was claiming ultimate authority as the only valid intercessor on behalf of people.

On 5/6/2022 at 7:59 AM, -Rejector- said:

Also bear in mind that if God wants me to go to Hell, I'm going to Hell, and no one can stop that. Like the Quran says, God is the master of the day of Judgement. All power, on that day, shall be for him. May God protect us all on that day. 

I agree with your prayer - May God protect us on Judgment day.  How does that fit with your first comment "If God wants me to go to hell, I will go to hell"  What is the point of asking and hoping for protection if your destiny has been set by a capricious God?

I don't believe God wants anyone to go to hell.  It is completley against his character.  God's desire and aim is that all be rescued on the day of Judgment.  He calls out to us to come to him and be included in his family.  Jesus the Messiah truly interceeds for those who come to him and his intercession is effective and valid.  I have no fear of the outcome of Judgment Day because my intercessor has already opened the way and I am already accepted by God and a member of his eternal family.

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On 5/8/2022 at 1:49 PM, Nad_M said:

every sentence of the prayer clashes with mainstream Christian tenets.

The forgivness section is not about how we are forgiven but the extent to which we are forgiven.  God's forgivness is there for all who come and ask for it.  That forgiveness is provided through the sacrifice of Jesus.  But the prayer is a call to us to forgive others.  Jesus the Messiah tells the story faithfully recorded in Matthew 18:21-35  There was a servant who owed a lot to his lord and was forgiven, but later he went and didn't forgive someone who owed him a little.  The lord heard about it and removed his forgivness.

The lead us not into temptation section has nothing to do with where sin comes from - human depravity, or satan, or 'the world' - we know that God will not tempt anyone it is not his nature to do that.  So the prayer is asking God to hold back temptation or to help us to avoid it.  It is not wrong to ask God to help us not to face trials, it is human nature to want this, but in praying this prayer we are offering our lives into God's hand asking both for protection but also for the strength to overcome when God allows temptation into our life.  I know I need to ask God for help to overcome the 'whispers of the devil'.  He is a good God and will provide the strength and a way out so I will be able to avoid or not be overcome temptation.

Our Father, makes this a family prayer.  And it is often called this.  We are in God's family he is our Father, and Jesus is our elder brother he is the head in the family.  It is important that we don't take this prayer out of the context of the accounts of Jesus and his teaching in regard to the difference between his relationship with The Father and our relationship with The Father.  Both Jesus and his followers call God Father, but we call God Father as created beings subject to him, whereas Jesus the Messiah calls God Father on a completly different level as the eternal expression of God's living word.

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If the person comes with failings of their own it makes their intercession invalid because they need an intercessor themselves.  We need to be careful that we don't credit God with a disregard of the seriousness of our shameful acts and the sin we do that makes us dirty.  All the people you mention as possible intercessors, except Jesus the Messiah, never claimed to have any right in and of themselves to stand before God.  But Jesus the Messiah declared "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.  No one comes to The Father (God) but through me." (John 14:6)  In saying this he was claiming ultimate authority as the only valid intercessor on behalf of people.

Yes, but we don't believe those who intercede us need intercession because either they are infallibles or their sins have already been forgiven by God. Or it could be possible that there are somone people who need intercession before they can intercede others. 

Quote

In saying this he was claiming ultimate authority as the only valid intercessor on behalf of people.

This is the thing that I really find some of the Christian interpretation very problematic, it somehow make all the past God religions as pointless and suddenly it introduce very weird and strange beliefs that contradict the past prophets teachings. It seems now all the repetance, intercessions, salvation comes from only believing in one man.

In Islam, The salvation (of others than Muslims) does not depend on believing in our Prophet, rather, Christians will receive heven when they submit to God entirely and follow their book properly, do good deeds. Same Goes with Jews. As for intercession, They will receive Intercessions from their prophets and saints too. As for repetance, Jews, Christians will receive forgivness for their sins when they repent from their sins sincerely and ask mercy and forgivness from God.

The Jews and Christians each claim that none will enter Paradise except those of their own faith. These are their desires. Reply, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Show ˹me˺ your proof if what you say is true.”
But no! Whoever submits themselves to Allah and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
The Jews say, “The Christians have nothing to stand on” and the Christians say, “The Jews have nothing to stand on,” although both recite the Scriptures. And those ˹pagans˺ who have no knowledge say the same ˹about people of faith˺. Surely Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment regarding their dispute. Qur'an 2:111-113

Yes both the Jews and Christians dispute while both of them have book from God. Is it not enough to believe and submit entirely to God of Abraham and follow your own scripture to salvation?

Edited by Abu Nur
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22 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

What do you mean by intercede or intercession?  For an intercessor to be effective the person needs to have influence and position before the one they come before.

 

The Prophet Muhammad's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) family have a weighty position in the eyes of God. 

Quote

Following are the contents of Ziyarat-e-Jamiya Kabeer:

Allah made you reach the noblest position of glory - فَبَلَغَ اللَّهُ بِكُمْ أَشْرَفَ مَحَلِّ الْمُكَرَّمِينَ

 the highest station nearest to Allah - وَأَعْلَى مَنَازِلِ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ

and the loftiest status of the Messengers - وَأَرْفَعَ دَرَجَاتِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

where none can ever reach you - ‏حَيْثُ لاَ يَلْحَقُهُ لاَحِقٌ

nor can anyone surpass you - وَلاَ يَفُوقُهُ فَائِقٌ

 nor can anyone ever precede you - وَلاَ يَسْبِقُهُ سَابِقٌ

https://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

So they do have a position in the eyes of God.

23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If the person comes with failings of their own it makes their intercession invalid because they need an intercessor themselves.

The Prophet and his family were infallible. In their whole lives, they haven't committed any sins. It is necessary for divine leaders to be sinless because if someone saw them sinning, they're gonna think,
'If even he can't keep himself from sinning, how can I?' So the Prophet's family were purified from all sin as is mentioned in the holy Quran:
"Indeed, Allah only wishes to keep away from you all impurities, O People of the House, and to purify you with a thorough purification." [33:33]

23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We need to be careful that we don't credit God with a disregard of the seriousness of our shameful acts and the sin we do that makes us dirty

I agree. We should act and pray like we won't be forgiven, (but also not lose hope in God).

23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

All the people you mention as possible intercessors, except Jesus the Messiah, never claimed to have any right in and of themselves to stand before God.  But Jesus the Messiah declared "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.  No one comes to The Father (God) but through me." (John 14:6)  In saying this he was claiming ultimate authority as the only valid intercessor on behalf of people.

Maybe I was wrong, because I'm not sure if the Prophets before the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can give us intercession. Hopefully someone does know. Look at this narration:
"He [Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام)] said:
'So they would be coming to Abraham (عليه السلام), but he would be saying:
"I am not your Master. I said: ‘I feel sick’ [37:89]. But, I shall point you to one Allah spoke to with a speech – Moses."'
He [Imam al-Sadiq] said: ‘So they would be coming to Moses (عليه السلام), but he would be saying:
"I am not your Master. I killed a person. But, I shall point you to one who used to create by the permission of Allah, and he cured the blind and the leper by the permission of Allah – Jesus."
So they would be coming to him, by he would be saying:
"I am not your Master. But, I shall point you to one whom I gave the glad tidings with in the house of the world, Ahmad [Muhammad]."'
Then Abu Abdillah [Imam al-Sadiq] said:
‘There is none from a Prophet from the sons of Adam up to Muhammad except and they would all be beneath the flag of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).'

(Source: تفسير العّياشي 2ِ:310ِ/145)

23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I agree with your prayer - May God protect us on Judgment day.  How does that fit with your first comment "If God wants me to go to hell, I will go to hell"  What is the point of asking and hoping for protection if your destiny has been set by a capricious God?

I don't believe God wants anyone to go to hell.  It is completley against his character.  God's desire and aim is that all be rescued on the day of Judgment.  He calls out to us to come to him and be included in his family.

Perhaps I worded that wrong. What I meant to say was that if I end up being worthy of going to Hell and intercession isn't accepted for me, I will go to Hell. In other words, the intercessors have some authority on that Day, but in the end Allah has authority over them as well.

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On 5/12/2022 at 11:28 PM, Abu Nur said:

Yes, but we don't believe those who intercede us need intercession because either they are infallibles or their sins have already been forgiven by God. Or it could be possible that there are somone people who need intercession before they can intercede others. 

On 5/13/2022 at 10:10 PM, -Rejector- said:

The Prophet and his family were infallible. In their whole lives, they haven't committed any sins. It is necessary for divine leaders to be sinless because if someone saw them sinning, they're gonna think,
'If even he can't keep himself from sinning, how can I?' So the Prophet's family were purified from all sin as is mentioned in the holy Quran:
"Indeed, Allah only wishes to keep away from you all impurities, O People of the House, and to purify you with a thorough purification." [33:33]

I find the Shia teaching that there are certain people who are infallible hard to understand.  In my understanding of God and his creation, only God is infallible.  Every created being is fallible, there is no one who hasn't fallen short of the honour of God in some respect.  Making people infallible is raising them to a level of equality with God.  Even the verse you quote Q 33:33 indicates that even Al-Bayt at one time were not pure because they needed purification.

Yes you are right that if the prophet sins, it is possible people will ask "how can I keep from sinning?".  I see this as a weak argument for saying prophets need to be sinless, in fact it shows a missunderstanding of the role of a prophet.  The prophet is there as an example of a human who God uses.  If we allow him, God takes people like you and me, with all our failings and impurities, and in his grace and mercy uses us to bring him glory.  We look at the prophets and are encouraged,  We can say "If God used them, wow he can use me too.  I am not a hopeless case."

We can see too that when prophets fail, God forgives them and lifts them up.  But so often they had to live through the consiquenses of their actions.  They then become a warning for us to avoid those acts.

If we see people as becoming or being made infallible, then when we look to them for an example we are dejected and say "God has made them different from me, I don't have any hope."  An infallible person ceases to be a helpful example because they do not have the ability to sin.

A person, on the other hand, who faces temptaions and struggles just like we have, but finds through God's powerful Holy Spirit the ability to resist and overcome, gives us hope and a true example not as someone 'out there' because they are infallible, but someone touchable and like us but who was victorious.

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On 5/12/2022 at 11:28 PM, Abu Nur said:

This is the thing that I really find some of the Christian interpretation very problematic, it somehow make all the past God religions as pointless and suddenly it introduce very weird and strange beliefs that contradict the past prophets teachings. It seems now all the repetance, intercessions, salvation comes from only believing in one man.

Yes you are right this is a very challenging teaching.  I would not have used it if Jesus the Messiah hadn't made the claim himself.

Jesus the Messiah opens the way for all people to find God and enter into a relationship with him.  Yes it does make other religions pointless.  Not becasue it nulifies their good moral teaching or the example they give to live in harmoney with others and the world.  These things are valid and important.  But it says they are not enough.  An upright life, loving others, caring for the environment, even doing religious acts is not enough to provide a relationship with God.

It is only when God comes to us through the door opened by Jesus the Messiah - who called himself the Gate (John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.) that we enter that life giving, hope and joy filled relationship with Alimighty God that we are seeking.

In fact the teaching about Jesus the Messiah doesn't contradict past prophets' teaching, he was their fulfilment.  It was in Jesus the Messiah that the things they looked for and spoke about come to reality.

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15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I find the Shia teaching that there are certain people who are infallible hard to understand.  In my understanding of God and his creation, only God is infallible.  Every created being is fallible, there is no one who hasn't fallen short of the honour of God in some respect.  Making people infallible is raising them to a level of equality with God.

Well we don't believe that the Prophet's family never sinned at all, we believe that they never committed any major sin. (Major sins could be missing a prayer, drinking alcohol, committing polytheism, etc.) But we do believe that they may have committed some minor sins. 

Quote

The Prophets, the Twelve Imams, and the Daughter of the Prophet of Islam, Lady Fatima (عليه السلام), from birth to death are protected (Ma’soum) from all types of sins and tangible errors. The only part that remains is intangible errors known as ‘Tarkel-Oula’ as well as their mistakes in their external senses or what is related to their worldly personal gain or loss.
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/infallibility-mansour-leghaei

 

15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Even the verse you quote Q 33:33 indicates that even Al-Bayt at one time were not pure because they needed purification.

Notice how the verse says "keep away from you all impurities" rather than "remove from you all impurities". 

15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We can see too that when prophets fail, God forgives them and lifts them up.  But so often they had to live through the consiquenses of their actions.  They then become a warning for us to avoid those acts.

If we see people as becoming or being made infallible, then when we look to them for an example we are dejected and say "God has made them different from me, I don't have any hope."  An infallible person ceases to be a helpful example because they do not have the ability to sin.

A person, on the other hand, who faces temptaions and struggles just like we have, but finds through God's powerful Holy Spirit the ability to resist and overcome, gives us hope and a true example not as someone 'out there' because they are infallible, but someone touchable and like us but who was victorious.

This would be true if prophets (and Imams) were infallible with all types of sins, but like the paragraph I quoted earlier from Al-Islam.org, prophets and Imams do commit some minor sins. 

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On 5/19/2022 at 4:59 AM, -Rejector- said:

prophets and Imams do commit some minor sins. 

Does this bring us back to the prayer Jesus the Messiah taught?  The prayer contains the phrase:

"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us."

There is no catogary of sins i.e. "forgive us our major sins".  All sins are included.  God does not have levels of sin.  How can he?  God is all pure, and completly honourable, so anything that is less than pure - however small, or anything that dishonours him will be less than his infinte purity and honour.  A little less than infinite is the same as a lot less than infinite.

If a guest comes to my house for a meal and I offer a glass of water, do I offer a clean glass or a dirty glass?  Do I offer pure water or dirty water?  Even if a small bit of dirt remains on the glass or falls in the water I wouldn't offer it to a guest.  How much more can we offer to the Lord of the Universe our lives in a dirty container full of shameful acts and thoughts.

When we offer the guest food would we offer halal food or food with some pig meat in it?  However small an amount of pig meat we wouldn't offer it to our guest.  Even if the pan we had used to cook the food had been used previously to cook pig meat would we give it to a guest?

So I pray "Lord forgive my sins, however small, they all need dealing with"

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6 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

So I pray "Lord forgive my sins, however small, they all need dealing with"

Of course all sins are serious. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says, 
"Do not think of how small the sin is, think of Who you are disobeying."

But there is a difference between major sins and minor sins. For example, polytheism is much worse than making hasty decisions. When we categorise sins into 'major sins' and 'minor sins', we don't do that to sugar-coat how wrong the minor sins are, we do it so as to say that God's prophets and saints wouldn't dare to disobey God in such a major way. 

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15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Does this bring us back to the prayer Jesus the Messiah taught?  The prayer contains the phrase:

"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us."

Hi sinning for prphets & infallible  Imams is about shortcoming  in praying  Allah/God due conditions that is out of their control which surely  they don't commit any sin intentionally  whether Major or minor sin.

15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If a guest comes to my house for a meal and I offer a glass of water, do I offer a clean glass or a dirty glass?  Do I offer pure water or dirty water?  Even if a small bit of dirt remains on the glass or falls in the water I wouldn't offer it to a guest.  How much more can we offer to the Lord of the Universe our lives in a dirty container full of shameful acts and thoughts.

When we offer the guest food would we offer halal food or food with some pig meat in it?  However small an amount of pig meat we wouldn't offer it to our guest.  Even if the pan we had used to cook the food had been used previously to cook pig meat would we give it to a guest?

This is totally  wrong example   which prphets & infallible  Imams  offer clean  water in clean glass without a bit of dirt , which we can offer to the lord Lord of the Universe our lives in a clean container with shame of shortcoming in thanking him.

Surly nobody gives Halal  food which has been mixed with non Halal likewise pig meat because  that small amount of pig meat has made whole of Halal food into non Halal which must be purified ir throw aways.

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