Another Mut'a Thread

[Taleb]

Assalamu alaykum,

Sorry to bore you with another Mut'a thread, but I'm interested in having a mature discussion on the ethics of Mut'a, and wanted to hear some educated male and female views.

Jurisprudentially, Mut'a isn't in question. All Fuqahaa' agree that it is Halal, and indeed advise youth who have not yet found spouses to utilise it to avoid falling into Zina.

Now, the majority of religious youth do not frequent the sorts of places that one might find someone who is open to a short-term, no strings attached sexual relationship - places like bars or clubs. The reality is that the majority of Mut'a that happens is between young men and women from our community, perhaps in and around universities. This can occur in a number of ways - perhaps the young man and woman start out as friends and then something more develops, or perhaps they begin dating in secret, with permanent marriage on both of their minds. Naturally, there are women who fall outside these categories - for instance divorcees - but I am speaking about the majority of young men and women who are engaged in Mut'a marriages.

Here lies, in my view, the ethical issue:

Typically, a young Muslim woman who agrees to a Mut'a marriage has done so because she is in love with the young man - she naively believes that she will end up marrying the young man anyway, so no harm done. Or perhaps she is afraid of losing this man that she's in love with, so feels she must engage in a physical relationship to keep him interested. I'm sure there are many other similar motivations, but very few would be open to a no-strings attached physical relationship. This can come about in a number of ways. Perhaps, at worst, the man is simply lying - he has no intention of marrying this woman and seeks sexual gratification but makes assurances that he will marry her. But at the very least, even if no one has lied, most men will be aware that even if they are genuinely in love and would like to marry this young lady, there is a significant chance that this won't happen and therefore there is a very real and likely risk that the young lady will suffer as a result of this relationship, both socially (in terms of her reputation or ability to find a spouse in the future) and emotionally (in terms of her own feelings and psychological wellbeing). 

Whilst it may be technically permissible for a young man to lead a young lady on, there is an ethical problem here. How can a young man, who is trying to avoid haram, engage in a Mut'a marriage with a young lady knowing that it will likely cause her both emotional and social harm? 

Very interested to hear your mature thoughts on this issue, preferably from an ethical, spiritual Akhlaqi perspective rather than a Fiqhi one.

[realizm]

I think you said it all brother. 

On a practical point of view -my point of view though- , Mut`a marriage should be reserved to soon to be married official couples who seek to preserve themselves from zina before living together under the same roof. 

Now, going back to roots. In the past, early of Islam, it was indeed practiced, but at that time it was also common to interact with females from your servants. Ironically it seems there was less taboo and shame around that topic.

For example Qur'an praises believing servant women, and apparently allow their owners to have activity with them. But it also allows them to marry them to third party believers when needed. My point is, a woman was maybe not eternally bound to one man all her life, and this is verified throughout the divorce laws of Shari`a where a woman may even be obliged to marry another man in order to be able to go back to her initial husband. 

We, throughout centuries, have added a very heavy dimension to marriage, and that is virginity, or even untouchedness. Mut`a itself violates that notion of untouchedness, where in a family it would be `aib that a girl even talks to a man privately, even respecting shar`i standards. 

No wonder then that mut`a remains in secrecy. 

As for cases of widows, divorcees etc may occur but I think they are a minority, and also once you are known as a divorcee or widow, that taboo of virginity is naturally removed. 

[kadhim]

Everyone really needs to be honest about reality with this. That includes community leaders, people in the community, parents, and young people. A lot of the issues come down to fantasy thinking out of tune with reality, and then they wonder why there are issues. There are issues because of lack of honesty and courage with reality.

Reality # 1: Permanent marriage ages are trending toward older ages. Most people don’t get permanently married in their late teens and early 20s like they used to. Late 20s, early 30s is more common, a fair proportion of the time even mid 30s and beyond. It’s neither good nor bad, it’s just a reality of living in complex, high-information modern societies. It takes a while to get set and ready for marriage materially, and also just to know who you are in the world enough to be psychologically ready for marriage. It’s a reality. Now, that’s not to say there is nothing the community can’t do to make it easier to get married earlier; there are lots of self-imposed barriers like over expensive weddings, inflated maher and groom asset demands, etc. But working on these things is just going to help hold it more to mid to late 20s. It’s not going to take it back where it once was.

Reality # 2: It’s just not healthy or realistic to expect these young people to be well-behaved and celibate until late 20s to mid 30s. It’s not natural. People get bent in damaging ways inside when you deny nature en masse to that extent. 

Reality # 3: The idea of supporting early marriages in late teens is well-intentioned and there are some anecdotal success stories, but it’s not a realistic mass solution. It takes a lot of parental support to a level that isn’t often realistic, and if everyone did this, there are just going to be a lot of divorces as people mentally change so much over that late teens to late 20s time frame. A lot happens in modern society in that time frame maturity wise. Sometimes people will stay in synch. But mostly it’s not realistic.

Reality # 4: Virginity is ultimately not important, and our community, for lack of a better word, fetishizes it too much. Yes, let’s value sex as something that should only happen within a defined relationship, but let’s not give virginity an outsized importance that isn’t really founded in our sources. Combining reality #2 with reality # 4, it is not realistic to expect young people to show up for a permanent marriage in their late 20s to mid 30s as virgins. And yes people, this equally applies to girls. So let’s stop worrying about it or asking about it or making demands about it at that point. Either create an environment where people can discuss their pasts and it’s no big deal. Or don’t ask. Don’t tell. 

Reality # 5: Muta’a is designed to be a short-term relationship where the horizon in mind by default is the end of the contract, possibly less if things don’t work out, and that’s OK. There are times when it is useful to go into a muta’a with the mutual pre-intention to make it a convenient bridge to something bigger, and that’s fine. But even then, you need to be realistic and understand there is a risk you will discover it doesn’t work, regardless. And in general it’s not a realistic expectation. If you were 100% certain you wanted to marry permanently, and not still figuring it out, you would just do that. We should just accept this flexible gift God has given to us and accept that a real valid relationship can have a finite horizon in the two people’s minds, and just enjoy that without having to self-delude and pretend it’s something else to talk oneself into it. People who are by biological and sharii standards, adults, have the fitri need for companionship and physical intimacy, even they are not yet socially or culturally ready for a permanent relationship, and it’s OK to just admit that and be fine with that. 

Reality # 6: If you’re a parent, and your child is beyond a certain age, be it 18, 19, 20, 21, and there are no realistic prospects of your now adult child being able to settle into a permanent marriage that will plausibly work, and you nevertheless refuse to give them your blessing to pursue what makes sense to them as adults in terms of seeking halal relationships to make them happy, then this is a failure of love bordering on abuse. You don’t own your kid at that age. They are their own person, responsible for their lives for good and bad. If they are old enough to start a legal company, join the army, or God forbid go to jail for their mistakes, they are old enough to choose to have a muta’a if that’s what they want. If they want to have a few Islamic boyfriends/girlfriends before settling down because that’s what is realistic, that’s their lives. And as long as it’s within sharii boundaries, what is the objection? 

I think deep down we all know these things. I’ve been witnessing these conversations for 20 years now, and there’s always a bit of naïveté and self-delusion involved. It’s way way past time to just be honest about this stuff. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by kadhim

[notme]

First marriage, I was not Muslim. We had a church and a legal marriage.  Husband, due to mental health issues, became dangerous. It took two years to get divorced, and I had to choose between heating my house and paying the divorce lawyer. 

Lesson learned: no legal entanglements. 

Second marriage, Islamic marriage only, no legal complications.  Husband did not fulfill obligation to support and my mortgage was foreclosed.  Additionally, he was an abusive narcissist.  When i finally got the courage for it, the divorce only took less than a year, but it required me to threaten blackmail, because he refused for a long time.  

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.  

Having been trapped in bad marriage and forced to extract myself by whatever means were available, I've been willing to give up the requirement of financial support in exchange for easier extraction, should it ever become necessary. My husband and I have a long term mutah. Functionally, it's no different from any other marriage.  Hopefully I'll never have to find out how difficult it is to get out. 

I've already decided if my now-husband dies or leaves or turns psycho, I don't plan to marry again.  Being married is no guarantee of connection anyway, and connection is all we are all really seeking anyway.  

[Zainabb]

3 hours ago, notme said:

First marriage, I was not Muslim. We had a church and a legal marriage.  Husband, due to mental health issues, became dangerous. It took two years to get divorced, and I had to choose between heating my house and paying the divorce lawyer. 

Lesson learned: no legal entanglements. 

Second marriage, Islamic marriage only, no legal complications.  Husband did not fulfill obligation to support and my mortgage was foreclosed.  Additionally, he was an abusive narcissist.  When i finally got the courage for it, the divorce only took less than a year, but it required me to threaten blackmail, because he refused for a long time.  

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.  

Having been trapped in bad marriage and forced to extract myself by whatever means were available, I've been willing to give up the requirement of financial support in exchange for easier extraction, should it ever become necessary. My husband and I have a long term mutah. Functionally, it's no different from any other marriage.  Hopefully I'll never have to find out how difficult it is to get out. 

I've already decided if my now-husband dies or leaves or turns psycho, I don't plan to marry again.  Being married is no guarantee of connection anyway, and connection is all we are all really seeking anyway.  

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.

I kinda agree with you on thus point but why didn't you go for khula?

[Zainabb]

3 hours ago, notme said:

First marriage, I was not Muslim. We had a church and a legal marriage.  Husband, due to mental health issues, became dangerous. It took two years to get divorced, and I had to choose between heating my house and paying the divorce lawyer. 

Lesson learned: no legal entanglements. 

Second marriage, Islamic marriage only, no legal complications.  Husband did not fulfill obligation to support and my mortgage was foreclosed.  Additionally, he was an abusive narcissist.  When i finally got the courage for it, the divorce only took less than a year, but it required me to threaten blackmail, because he refused for a long time.  

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.  

Having been trapped in bad marriage and forced to extract myself by whatever means were available, I've been willing to give up the requirement of financial support in exchange for easier extraction, should it ever become necessary. My husband and I have a long term mutah. Functionally, it's no different from any other marriage.  Hopefully I'll never have to find out how difficult it is to get out. 

I've already decided if my now-husband dies or leaves or turns psycho, I don't plan to marry again.  Being married is no guarantee of connection anyway, and connection is all we are all really seeking anyway.  

Really appreciate the fact that you stood for yourself by calling off your marriage many girls' can't do it

[notme]

16 hours ago, Zainabb said:

I kinda agree with you on thus point but why didn't you go for khula?

I told you in the other topic it doesn't work like that. 

15 hours ago, Zainabb said:

Really appreciate the fact that you stood for yourself by calling off your marriage many girls' can't do it

I've stood alone all my life.  Anyone can, if they must.  

[notme]

It's good that mutah is an available option.  Nobody should be pressured to do it if they don't want to.  Neither should it be relegated to gossip and dirty secrets. Mutah is marriage and it is halal for men and for women (obviously). Our societies need to stop being so prudish and stop condemning those who exercise their halal options to remain chaste while fulfilling the human urge to connect.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by notme
Typo

[Zainuu]

How much muta?

Shiachat has really taught me that muta stands the most hot topic in the shia muslim community in the west. Fair enough. But in that case, create a consolidated thread on muta and put that somewhere on shiachat, where it is visible to everyone.

End these discussions once and for all. It would help people in refraining to share their personal life when they are vulnerable and at the same time will get a good answer.

 

Wassalaam

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless everyone. May allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect your faith, make it firm and increase it through knowledge and wisdom.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Zainuu

[notme]

@Zainuu personal stories make it real.  Why do you object to knowing people's marriage experiences? Isn't marriage a societal matter? 

[Zainuu]

15 minutes ago, notme said:

personal stories make it real.

Salaam sister,

Yes they do. I agree.

15 minutes ago, notme said:

Why do you object to knowing people's marriage experiences?

Good or bad. Worst or fine. This is their personal life. If they are comfortable sharing it, no problem. But encouraging such discussions is not a good thing.

*NAHJ UL BALAGHA*

Saying 2:
1. He who is greedy is disgraced.
2. He who discloses his hardship will always be humiliated.
3. He who has no control over his tongue will often have to face discomfort.

See the second point of the above saying.

Why not create some case scenarios out of all the marriage experiences received on shiachat?

The one who shares will feel bad, uncomfortable and might become sad after sharing his/her experience.

Marriage is a social issue, so discuss it in a social way and try to make out a conclusion or a solution out of it instead of creating endless threads where everytime some xyz has to share his story in front of everyone.

 

Marriage is a personal matter too. Do care about the zeal (ghayrat) and honor of the people.

 

Also, encourage people to refer to Quran, Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

Wassalam

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless everyone and solve all the problems faced by believing men and women.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Zainuu

[Taleb]

Many thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts - I appreciate the time you've taken to write long, thought-out responses. 

@kadhim and @notme, you've both shared mature, practical uses of Mut'a. As you've both shown, it can be a valuable arrangement that allows for healthier relationships.

However, to try and hone in a little more - my question is around the ethical position of the man in a young (say university age) Mut'a arrangement. I won't agree or disagree about whether an ideal society would be less prudish - there would certainly be merits but it would also introduce a slew of fresh challenges. Regardless of where you stand in that discussion, let;s ground our discussion in the real context we live in today - most young women would not agree to Mut'a unless they thought there was a very real prospect of permanent marriage at the end of it. Sometimes very naively, sometimes because of how society presents women's bodies and value, sometimes because they have been manipulated and lied to - the list goes on. 

I'm not trying to discuss whether Mut'a is ethical in all cases - it is very clear, as both @kadhim and @notme have wonderfully articulated, that there are some highly ethical applications. I want to discuss whether in a young couple secret relationship situation, if whilst the relationship may be entirely Halal from a Fiqhi standpoint, it is ethical and in the spirit of the Akhlaq that our religion wants to instil?

In essence, my question can be boiled down to simply 'if something is Halal, is it ethical'? And more widely, should young men be practising Mut'a if they feel it is to the detriment of the young lady, whether that's psychologically or socially? Should a young man be blasé about how his actions might affect a young lady's future marital prospects and whether she's left with a broken heart, provided he isn't doing anything Haram? Let's assume that the young man in this case has not lied - perhaps he has intentionally withheld the truth - i.e. not explicitly indicated that he's intending to permanently marry - or perhaps he simply doesn't know either way - or perhaps even he genuinely loves and intends on trying to marry this woman but has yet to actually take active steps towards this (thereby opening the very real possibility that no marriage occurs if his parents refuse etc). 

 

I hope that clarifies the question - apologies for writing so much! It's just that this is a situation that is absolutely rampant in our communities and one that I've seen repeated, again and again. I've pondered on this question and wanted the opportunity to discuss it with others. 

[Uni Student]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:23 PM, Taleb said:

The reality is that the majority of Mut'a that happens is between young men and women from our community, perhaps in and around universities. This can occur in a number of ways - perhaps the young man and woman start out as friends and then something more develops, or perhaps they begin dating in secret, with permanent marriage on both of their minds. Naturally, there are women who fall outside these categories - for instance divorcees - but I am speaking about the majority of young men and women who are engaged in Mut'a marriages.

How many of these marriages among young people are actually valid though? Majority of those young sisters have never been married, and the majority of their fathers would not give permission for such a thing. Not to mention the hadiths advising younger women away from mutah.

As a whole I think there is no point in young people spending their energy chasing mutah because of the number of barriers and obstacles they have to get through. In my eyes, even with all the obstacles that society  has placed in front of permanent marriage, it is still an easier thing to attain than mutah even in the West (assuming that ahle kitab are out of the equation).

[notme]

@Taleb openness and honesty should always be used.  You can't have a respectable respectful relationship without them.  And even if the man and woman agree to a set period with no expectation of anything further, either of them could develop attachment and change their mind.  If both do, great.  If only one does, it's sad, but a little heartbreak is survivable. As long as there is informed consent between two adults (and wali if applicable) what happens happens. 

[Zainuu]

49 minutes ago, Taleb said:

if something is Halal, is it ethical'?

Not necessarily. Example: Eating non-veg and good food is halal and valid. At the same time, eating it within extremely poor people who can't afford such food is unethical. You need to care about how they feel.

Again, I would repeat what I say. SC hides a chunk of beautiful discussions and threads where wonderful topics were discussed and wonderful points were brought. But they get lost in the crowd of millions of threads. If anyone considers, the team (on a side note) must work upon this problem so that those discussions can be taken out to provide answers of questions already answered. It will help everyone and a lot of time and effort will be saved.

 

Anyways, coming back to my point, Sister @starlight once in a thread discussed how Islam is not just equal to fiqh. Islam is way beyond that. Fiqh just defines the boundaries. There is also akhlaq (ethics) in Islam. Ethical values in Islam restrict the individuals more and more and encourage them to take the best decisions. You can pray Dhuhr at the time of adhaan. But you can also pray (maybe) 2 hours later. Fiqh says this is valid. Akhlaq says "no boy, pray at the right time." 

57 minutes ago, Taleb said:

And more widely, should young men be practising Mut'a if they feel it is to the detriment of the young lady, whether that's psychologically or socially?

Depends person to situation to situation. It is makrooh to have mutah with a virgin young woman. Socially or psychologically, she is not an infant. She has also a guardian to discuss this with. Who are men to decide what is psychologically good or bad for a woman?

I didn't get your last question. And I remotely assume that I have answered it.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and clear all your doubts about religion.

[Taleb]

3 hours ago, Zainuu said:

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and clear all your doubts about religion.

Assalamu Alaykum,

 

Azizi I don't have any doubts on this issue Alhamdulillah, I have a personal opinion but I was interested in discussing it with the knowledge brothers and sisters on this forum. 

 

4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Who are men to decide what is psychologically good or bad for a woman?

Of course - but men are accountable to themselves on the repercussions of their actions. 

3 hours ago, Uni Student said:

How many of these marriages among young people are actually valid though?

A number of Marji' have different views on this issue - for instance Seyyid Sadiq Rouhani is of the opinion that no permission whatsoever is needed. 

[kadhim]

8 hours ago, Taleb said:

In essence, my question can be boiled down to simply 'if something is Halal, is it ethical'? And more widely, should young men be practising Mut'a if they feel it is to the detriment of the young lady, whether that's psychologically or socially? Should a young man be blasé about how his actions might affect a young lady's future marital prospects and whether she's left with a broken heart, provided he isn't doing anything Haram? Let's assume that the young man in this case has not lied - perhaps he has intentionally withheld the truth - i.e. not explicitly indicated that he's intending to permanently marry - or perhaps he simply doesn't know either way - or perhaps even he genuinely loves and intends on trying to marry this woman but has yet to actually take active steps towards this (thereby opening the very real possibility that no marriage occurs if his parents refuse etc). 

Two things. 

One, the two young people need to be realistic and go in with the understanding that if it’s a temporary contract, the assumption for both should be that it will end at or before that time. If they discover they love each other deeply and want to continue a life together, wonderful. But if it’s a temporary union it doesn’t make sense to make assumptions beyond what you agreed upon. That’s the reasonable way to think about a contract. 

Two, I think we need to stop thinking about women as fragile little china teacups. It’s patronizing. It’s paternalistic. If they are adults, late teens or early 20s, educated, even working in their own jobs, they can make their own decisions and handle the consequences. 

[kadhim]

22 hours ago, notme said:

First marriage, I was not Muslim. We had a church and a legal marriage.  Husband, due to mental health issues, became dangerous. It took two years to get divorced, and I had to choose between heating my house and paying the divorce lawyer. 

Lesson learned: no legal entanglements. 

Second marriage, Islamic marriage only, no legal complications.  Husband did not fulfill obligation to support and my mortgage was foreclosed.  Additionally, he was an abusive narcissist.  When i finally got the courage for it, the divorce only took less than a year, but it required me to threaten blackmail, because he refused for a long time.  

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.  

Having been trapped in bad marriage and forced to extract myself by whatever means were available, I've been willing to give up the requirement of financial support in exchange for easier extraction, should it ever become necessary. My husband and I have a long term mutah. Functionally, it's no different from any other marriage.  Hopefully I'll never have to find out how difficult it is to get out. 

I've already decided if my now-husband dies or leaves or turns psycho, I don't plan to marry again.  Being married is no guarantee of connection anyway, and connection is all we are all really seeking anyway.  

Sorry you had to go through all this. 

Happy to see you’re through to the other side. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

Wa alaikas salam, 

In this specific case, the ethical dilemma stems from the combined problem of the potential of its abuse, the naivetë of some young women, and the dishonesty of some young men engaging in the practice. 

These problems nearly disappear when we factor in the mandatory requirement of the wali's permission for unmarried, young women. The college-going naive damsel might not see through the sweet promises of the young deceiver who is courting her; her experienced father/grandfather who has seen the world might very much be able to. Usually, decisions of such magnitude are collective ones, which implies that the wali consults other family members as well. The rush of hormones and deep romantic elation may lead the young lady wayward, but the probability of several family elders being duped by a young, manipulative con -artist is nearly zero. In a way this is a double-edged sword since the young men and women have to trade some of their liberty for security. But the pros are as real as the cons. 

The Shariah has its own intricate but effective means of check -and -balance; many of the sinister implications of mutah emanate from the sad reality that we have come to see it as something clandestine and to be done on the sly; not something that is serious and very much a public affair having spiritual and legal concomitants. No wonder this warped perception of mutah as some sort of religiously-endorsed fling between two hormonal youngsters (and not something serious that involves the larger society) has become embedded within the minds of our youth as well. As brother @Uni Student very importantly mentioned, in most cases the parties concerned are not even aware of the fiqhi necessities involved- the naive damsel does not know that she is supposed to secure the consent of a father who doesn't share her romantic delusions and doesn't view her suitor from her rose-tinted lens, nor does the young manipulator know that he has to circumvent the firewall of a father (and by extension, other elders of the family) who are not as gullible, inexperienced, and swayed by the effect of hormones as the young lady whom he is courting is. Once the protective wall of the wali's supervision is removed, there remains solely an easy prey and an astute predator. The rest is a foregone conclusion. 

I have this rule of thumb- the further away from the Sunnah, the nearer to trouble. Hopefully this can act as our lodestone in the case under consideration too. 

[kadhim]

Lodestone. Smh.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:11 PM, notme said:

I told you in the other topic it doesn't work like that. 

I know that khula might make you to compensate your husband or forfeit your Mehar wholly or partially but you could have applied for khula on the ground that your husband was abusive, so why didn't you apply?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Borntowitnesstruth

[kadhim]

1 hour ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I know that khula might make you to compensate your husband or forfeit your Mehar wholly or partially but you could have applied for khula on the ground that your husband was abusive, so why didn't you apply?

Khula still depends on the husband assenting to the divorce. The giving back property is just a sweetener for the deal.  In the real world, there are awful people who will refuse for the sake of being difficult. 

In theory, a marja can annul a marriage, but that doesn’t always work, and even when it does, it takes a long time. Local a’lims are too often no help at all, and will tend to push the woman to stay, sometimes even in clear cases of abuse. 

It’s stacked. That’s what happens when you systematically block half the population from positions of authority in the community.

[notme]

5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I know that khula might make you to compensate your husband or forfeit your Mehar wholly or partially but you could have applied for khula on the ground that your husband was abusive, so why didn't you apply?

It doesn't work like that.  Why y'all assuming I don't know what I'm talking about? I would have been willing to pay back, if it had been an available option. This dude just wanted control. Narcissism is surprisingly common. I'm certain I'm not the only one. 

Ladies, use extreme caution when marrying. You will be forced to trust him to do what is right even if he proves that he will not.  

[Borntowitnesstruth]

18 hours ago, notme said:

It doesn't work like that.  Why y'all assuming I don't know what I'm talking about? I would have been willing to pay back, if it had been an available option. This dude just wanted control. Narcissism is surprisingly common. I'm certain I'm not the only one. 

Ladies, use extreme caution when marrying. You will be forced to trust him to do what is right even if he proves that he will not.  

I am sorry to know that.

[Hameedeh]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:21 AM, notme said:

I've already decided if my now-husband dies or leaves or turns psycho, I don't plan to marry again. 

Sister, I understand exactly how you feel now and agree with you on this.

However, you are a young woman and your children could benefit from having a father figure in their future. Please never say never. 

[notme]

33 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Please never say never. 

If it makes you feel better, I've said this before and later changed my mind.  

I do ok on my own though. 

[Irfani313]

On 5/3/2022 at 11:35 AM, kadhim said:

Khula still depends on the husband assenting to the divorce. The giving back property is just a sweetener for the deal.  In the real world, there are awful people who will refuse for the sake of being difficult. 

In theory, a marja can annul a marriage, but that doesn’t always work, and even when it does, it takes a long time. Local a’lims are too often no help at all, and will tend to push the woman to stay, sometimes even in clear cases of abuse. 

It’s stacked. That’s what happens when you systematically block half the population from positions of authority in the community.

Agree with everything except the last part. 
 

What you said above is the symptom, not the cause.
 

Our Fuqaha and the Fiqhi eco-system of divorce, separation, & Khula hasn’t evolved with time coupled with the lack of man/woman-power of jurists to handle the volume, and modern family complexities. Iran might be an exception. 
 

A petition to Najaf and Qom is in order to establish (encourage) separate, institutionalized, and accessible bodies of jurists at least in the sizeable Shia population countries, where shia are not in the ruling seat, such as in Pak, India, Afg, Leb, Iqi etc. It needs to be done with the mandate of the local courts, and supported by legislation in order to not make it a competing courts vs. the regional civil courts.
 

It has to be visibly more than what is currently there, otherwise Pak and India already have Shia family law as part of legal penals, it’s just outdated as I mentioned. 
 

Work needs to be done, it needs systematic design and implementation, and definitely not on the scale of simplicity of SC ulema. 

[kadhim]

1 hour ago, Irfani313 said:

Agree with everything except the last part. 
 

What you said above is the symptom, not the cause.
 

Our Fuqaha and the Fiqhi eco-system of divorce, separation, & Khula hasn’t evolved with time coupled with the lack of man/woman-power of jurists to handle the volume, and modern family complexities. Iran might be an exception. 
 

A petition to Najaf and Qom is in order to establish (encourage) separate, institutionalized, and accessible bodies of jurists at least in the sizeable Shia population countries, where shia are not in the ruling seat, such as in Pak, India, Afg, Leb, Iqi etc. It needs to be done with the mandate of the local courts, and supported by legislation in order to not make it a competing courts vs. the regional civil courts.
 

It has to be visibly more than what is currently there, otherwise Pak and India already have Shia family law as part of legal penals, it’s just outdated as I mentioned. 
 

Work needs to be done, it needs systematic design and implementation, and definitely not on the scale of simplicity of SC ulema. 

Oh, if you want to broaden the scope and look at the failures of authority all the way up, I can talk all year about that. It’s all broken on a fractal level. For sure. 

[Muhammed Ali]

On 4/27/2022 at 12:23 AM, Taleb said:

Very interested to hear your mature thoughts on this issue, preferably from an ethical, spiritual Akhlaqi perspective rather than a Fiqhi one.

Akhlaq should not be separate from fiqh. It's a rational error. Even knowledgeable scholars can make rudimentary rational errors.

This means the fiqh is wrong.

For those of you who believe that fiqh and akhlaq are separate things: Can you explain how to determine if a teaching of Ahlulbayt [a] falls under either category?

When a hadith say something is bad, how do you know if it is haraam/makrooh or simply bad akhlaq?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Muhammed Ali

[Muhammed Ali]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:21 AM, notme said:

Lesson learned: men have all the power when it comes to divorce.  

Having been trapped in bad marriage and forced to extract myself by whatever means were available, I've been willing to give up the requirement of financial support in exchange for easier extraction, should it ever become necessary. My husband and I have a long term mutah. Functionally, it's no different from any other marriage.  Hopefully I'll never have to find out how difficult it is to get out.

A flawed law is justified because another flawed law exists? 

Not all women are in your financial and social situation whereby it is desirable to do a long term mutah. For them a rectification in the original law is better. 

Quote

use extreme caution

Humans are terrible at judging character. This can lead to them overreacting and accusing whole groups of people of possibly having the same negative traits that they found in certain people that they considered good. What is needed is a better approach in assessing character.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Muhammed Ali

[notme]

@Muhammed Ali I agree with all you've said except I don't understand what you mean when you mention flawed laws.