Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Men and women can't be friends.

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

This is my response to reading the thread

 

 

I'm astonished after reading some of the replies, which claim that the guy wanting his finance to give up her non-mahram "friends" is a red flag, but that the finance having non-mahram "friends" is not.

Professionalism should not be confused with friendship. In nature, men and women are not meant to be friends, we were created to be attracted to each other, not compadres.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest barbery

Agreed. Maybe these people's definition of friend differs from ours. We mean chums that you joke with and spend time with when it's not necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

It's out of the question, even without taking religion into consideration 

Aside from professionalism / common courtesy there is no way a man could have a platonic relationship with a woman or vice versa

It's simple, if you want to have a relationship that transcends the boundaries of professionalism with somebody you will have to invest heavily in said relationship.
and you can't form such a bond with someone of the opposite sex without some serious emotional investment, must I elaborate?

How would anyone think that it's acceptable for their spouse to be emotionally invested in someone who is not a muharram محرم?
Their bond will most certainly have an effect on your marital bond  
  
It's not just a red-flag, it's a hard no 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

If the prohibition is based on potential for romantic or physical attraction, would you conclude that a Muslim who is attracted to their own gender may not have any friends at all? That hardly seems reasonable! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, notme said:

would you conclude that a Muslim who is attracted to their own gender may not have any friends at all?

I'm not answering your question, (because I don't have one), but I thought this was somewhat related.

وَقُل لِلمُؤمِناتِ يَغضُضنَ مِن أَبصارِهِنَّ وَيَحفَظنَ فُروجَهُنَّ وَلا يُبدينَ زينَتَهُنَّ إِلّا ما ظَهَرَ مِنها ۖ وَليَضرِبنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلىٰ جُيوبِهِنَّ ۖ وَلا يُبدينَ زينَتَهُنَّ إِلّا لِبُعولَتِهِنَّ أَو آبائِهِنَّ أَو آباءِ بُعولَتِهِنَّ أَو أَبنائِهِنَّ أَو أَبناءِ بُعولَتِهِنَّ أَو إِخوانِهِنَّ أَو بَني إِخوانِهِنَّ أَو بَني أَخَواتِهِنَّ أَو نِسائِهِنَّ أَو ما مَلَكَت أَيمانُهُنَّ أَوِ التّابِعينَ غَيرِ أُولِي الإِربَةِ مِنَ الرِّجالِ أَوِ الطِّفلِ الَّذينَ لَم يَظهَروا عَلىٰ عَوراتِ النِّساءِ ۖ وَلا يَضرِبنَ بِأَرجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعلَمَ ما يُخفينَ مِن زينَتِهِنَّ ۚ وَتوبوا إِلَى اللَّهِ جَميعًا أَيُّهَ المُؤمِنونَ لَعَلَّكُم تُفلِحونَ

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful. [24:31]

Tafseer:

Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Al Fazl Bin Shazaan, and Abu Ali Al Ashary, from Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Safwan Bin Yahya, from Ibn Muskan, from Zurara who said,

"I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about the Words of Allah, Mighty and Majestic: "or the male servants not having need (of women)" [24:31] – up to the end of the Verse.
He said: ‘The fool (الاحمق) who does not (feel the need to) go to the women.'"

(Source: Al Kafi – V 5 – The Book of Marriage Ch 157 H 1)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
11 hours ago, notme said:

If the prohibition is based on potential for romantic or physical attraction, would you conclude that a Muslim who is attracted to their own gender may not have any friends at all? That hardly seems reasonable! 

Is your question directed towards my argument?
if yes, than I don't understand how it relates (or challenges) my point.
Considering the extreme narrative (same-sex attraction is too vague a topic to bring up) I don't see how this is a valid question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
3 hours ago, Traveller_ said:

Is your question directed towards my argument?
if yes, than I don't understand how it relates (or challenges) my point.
Considering the extreme narrative (same-sex attraction is too vague a topic to bring up) I don't see how this is a valid question.

I don't understand your lack of understanding.  

IF the reason men and women can't be friends is because there is potential for attraction, does that also mean that a person who sufferers from same-sex attraction should not have any friends of any gender? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

or the male servants not having need (of women),

 

13 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

"I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about the Words of Allah, Mighty and Majestic: "or the male servants not having need (of women)" [24:31] – up to the end of the Verse.
He said: ‘The fool (الاحمق) who does not (feel the need to) go to the women.'"

Can u explain brother? i did not get it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I think you want to beware of absolutist thinking about this. 

Listen. If you are really attracted to someone, maybe it’s not healthy to try to be a Platonic friend with that person until that sort of thing fades or moves to someone else. Especially if you have the sort of mind that will continue to spin fantasies and false hopes or deep down think that the friendship will magically blossom into something else. That honestly almost never happens outside of romantic movies, so you’re doing a disservice to both of you if you pursue a friendship with that secretly spinning inside. It becomes false pretences. 

But if you’re mature people and legitimately neither of you is the other’s type, why not? 

Everything comes down to intention. 

I will say another thing. For men especially, this is definitely something that gets easier as you age. As things simmer down a bit and you gain the maturity to see women as full and equal human beings like yourself and learn to just relate on that level. 

It is quite possible and valid. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)

I haven't had any friends locally in ages. Decades.

I do have a few internet friends.

Before I was Muslim, most of my friends were male. I don't know how to relate to women. 

And it's unlikely that anyone will ever convince me that men and women can't be just friends, like two normal human beings. 

 

Edit: well, now I've made myself sad thinking about it. 

 

Edited by notme
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
18 hours ago, notme said:

I don't understand your lack of understanding.  

IF the reason men and women can't be friends is because there is potential for attraction, does that also mean that a person who sufferers from same-sex attraction should not have any friends of any gender? 

How should this case be taken into account? same-sex attraction is quite rare and just because this particular hypothesis is possible doesn't mean it should be accounted for, it's only brought up for the sake of arguing.

Let's suppose someone is attracted to a friend from the same sex, I must say I can only imagine it to be either awkward for the person they're attracted to or at least less than comfortable (assuming they were told that a same-sex friend find them attracted). That's not even taking into account the religious aspect of it.
Therefore I wouldn't be comfortable lowering my guard around such a person and our relationship would be superficial, not on based on friendship. 

Same-sex attraction is a muddy topic to get into in the first place.

Back to the original topic. I would like to bring two things into attention here:
A- men and women communicate differently.
B- men and women seek to fulfil different needs.

It's harder for a man to communicate with a woman than it is the other way around. It is also less rewarding too, to be quite frank with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
53 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

A- men and women communicate differently.
B- men and women seek to fulfil different needs.

And then there are those who are different. It's way more common than you realize. Women with ADHD or autism, for example, have an easier time communicating with and relating to men than to neurotypical women. There are also men who relate better to women.  Islam discourages isolation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

assuming they were told that a same-sex friend find them attracted

Why would the friend tell them? 

Why would a person tell their opposite gender friend that they find them attractive? It will likely ruin the friendship.  

Edited by notme
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

But even not considering people who are different from the majority, why can't men and women just treat each other as human beings? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 4/26/2022 at 6:42 AM, Diaz said:

 

Can u explain brother? i did not get it

I'm no scholar, but I think it means that sisters don't need to wear a hijab around men who 'do not (feel the need to go to the women).'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
15 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

I'm no scholar, but I think it means that sisters don't need to wear a hijab around men who 'do not (feel the need to go to the women).'

You mean it’s ok for sisters not to wear hijab infront of gays?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
3 hours ago, Diaz said:

You mean it’s ok for sisters not to wear hijab infront of gays?

There is a difference between jurisprudence and someone saying "I'm no scholar, but". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 4/26/2022 at 6:51 PM, notme said:

And then there are those who are different. It's way more common than you realize. Women with ADHD or autism, for example, have an easier time communicating with and relating to men than to neurotypical women. There are also men who relate better to women.  Islam discourages isolation. 

Such women and men must find ways to accommodate and accept that they are a deviation from the normal. 
I never mentioned isolation. 

On 4/26/2022 at 6:51 PM, notme said:

Why would the friend tell them? 

Why would a person tell their opposite gender friend that they find them attractive? It will likely ruin the friendship.  

Why would he/she not tell them? is deceiving them and pretending to be just a friend only to pull a complete 180 the right thing? or are they supposed to keep catering for someone who doesn't reciprocate their feelings and most likely thinks less of then? 
 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:44 PM, notme said:

But even not considering people who are different from the majority, why can't men and women just treat each other as human beings? 

So, if I don't agree to befriend a specific person .. does that mean that I am dehumanizing them? surely you don't befriend every person you come across, don't you have a certain criteria for who should and shouldn't be your friend?

As I said, men and women should treat each other with the common courtesies they deserve, the common courtesies that human beings deserve yet often times aren't treated with. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
29 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

accept that they are a deviation from the normal. 

Believe me, they know.  And yet, somehow, they're still very human. 

29 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

Why would he/she not tell them? is deceiving them and pretending to be just a friend only to pull a complete 180 the right thing?

What? This is utterly baffling. Is this how people think? You don't have to say everything that pops into your head! They ARE "only" a friend! 

(Though "only" a friend is, to me, far more valuable than an object of attraction. I don't know how others feel, but my friends are rare and valued.) 

29 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

So, if I don't agree to befriend a specific person .. does that mean that I am dehumanizing them?

Again, what?

How did you arrive at this from what I said? I can't see the point from which you made this leap.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
21 minutes ago, notme said:

Believe me, they know.  And yet, somehow, they're still very human. 

What? This is utterly baffling. Is this how people think? You don't have to say everything that pops into your head! They ARE "only" a friend! 

(Though "only" a friend is, to me, far more valuable than an object of attraction. I don't know how others feel, but my friends are rare and valued.) 

Again, what?

How did you arrive at this from what I said? I can't see the point from which you made this leap.  

Have you read the entire comment? 

I should also clarify something, I meant that one should let them know, not necessarily by words but in a tactful, mature way so as to ascertain your feelings.
Anything is better than hiding one's intentions, even if it had to be uttered in words uncomfortably.

no one is entitled to mutual attraction, but it is a simple matter of fact that one can't maintain an ordinary friendship with unrequited one-sided feelings. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
16 minutes ago, Traveller_ said:

no one is entitled to mutual attraction, but it is a simple matter of fact that one can't maintain an ordinary friendship with unrequited one-sided feelings. 

Maybe this has been your experience. 

I assure you, it's very possible, especially given that attraction is transient, while friendship is permanent unless you break it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 4/25/2022 at 7:25 AM, notme said:

If the prohibition is based on potential for romantic or physical attraction, would you conclude that a Muslim who is attracted to their own gender may not have any friends at all? That hardly seems reasonable! 

In such case, I feel they have more urgent matters to address than who they are friends with.
Because this is not how we were created, something is clearly wrong if somebody feels this way about someone of the same gender.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 10:42 PM, Diaz said:

 

Can u explain brother? i did not get it

On 4/25/2022 at 9:09 AM, -Rejector- said:

"I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about the Words of Allah, Mighty and Majestic: "or the male servants not having need (of women)" [24:31] – up to the end of the Verse.
He said: ‘The fool (الاحمق) who does not (feel the need to) go to the women.'"

(Source: Al Kafi – V 5 – The Book of Marriage Ch 157 H 1)

 

If my memory serves me well, this refers to males that don't have sexual organs, which, if I'm not mistaken, was the norm for servants back in the day. Hopefully, another more knowledgeable member will be able to provide a more detailed response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...