What if it's true?

[Dave follower of The Way]

I have posted some of the events in the life of Jesus the Messiah as recorded faithfully by reliable witneses and reporters.  What is the consiquence to us if these events really happened?

Peter, a close friend and follower of Jesus the Messiah during his time on earth, sumarised the events like this (Acts chapter 2)

Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. ²³ This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. ²⁴ But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

³² God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. ³³ Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

What is our response to these events, what difference will it make?

[Ashvazdanghe]

Hi our response  is that he has not been crucified  by anyone  according  to holy Quran.

[Nad_M]

During the years when Jesus was growing up, many people believed that the End Times necessary for the appearance of the warrior king Messiah per the HB had already arrived, and that this liberator would soon organize a revolt against the hated Romans and drive them out of the country. There were many claimants to the role before, and after Jesus. The Romans were fully aware of this and were constantly on the look out for rebel leaders and their accomplices in a time where uprisings against the state were more frequent in Palestine than any other part of the Empire. 

So from an objective viewpoint, it would make Jesus just another failed messiah. His death wouldnt imply anything from what was retrospectively claimed as regards his nature and the theological significance of his execution (atonement and freedom from the cursed law of the HB)

As regards the testimonies, the NT itself shows in Matt26,Jn18 that the disciples did not witness anything but Jesus' arrest by the Romans, and among the disciples only Peter saw Jesus' questionning by the high priest at the courtyard. None of the disciples saw or were present at Jesus' alleged public beating, humiliation and crucifixion.

Something worthy to note at this point is that the prophet Muhammad, had he been the Quran's author, had nothing to gain and everything to lose in terms of credibility and hope of acceptance among the Christians by making such a claim. Every Christian around him and beyond believed he was crucified, and every Jew, as is depicted from their self-convicting sarcasm in the Quran, were more than ready to take upon themselves the guilt of his execution. It was to them a kind of cynical slap in the face of their Christian age-long oppressors. The Quran here, in a matter of paramount significance to its audience, as it does in other places, does not seek to accomodate any group of people at the expense of the Truth.

[Irfani313]

Quran: Sura an-Nisa 

…and for their saying, ‘We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of Allah’—though they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but so it was made to appear to them. Indeed those who differ concerning him are surely in doubt about him: they do not have any knowledge of that beyond following conjectures, and certainly, they did not kill him. (157) Indeed, Allah raised him up toward Himself, and Allah is all-mighty, all-wise. (158)

 

 

[Leslie P]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:00 PM, Nad_M said:

During the years when Jesus was growing up, many people believed that the End Times necessary for the appearance of the warrior king Messiah per the HB had already arrived, and that this liberator would soon organize a revolt against the hated Romans and drive them out of the country.

<snip>

The Quran here, in a matter of paramount significance to its audience, as it does in other places, does not seek to accomodate any group of people at the expense of the Truth.

This is a particularly thought provoking post.

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During the years when Jesus was growing up, many people believed that the End Times

<snip>

So from an objective viewpoint, it would make Jesus just another failed messiah. His death wouldnt imply anything from what was retrospectively claimed as regards his nature and the theological significance of his execution (atonement and freedom from the cursed law of the HB)

I would agree with this, but then add a follow up question. Why did the disciples, from the very first, say that Jesus had been crucified and killed? It was a huge no-no in C1 Judaism to say your Messiah had been killed, and ordinarily would mean your guy wasn't the Messiah.

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As regards the testimonies, the NT itself shows in Matt26,Jn18 that the disciples did not witness anything but Jesus' arrest by the Romans, and among the disciples only Peter saw Jesus' questionning by the high priest at the courtyard. None of the disciples saw or were present at Jesus' alleged public beating, humiliation and crucifixion.

There were witnesses including a disciple. John 19:25-27 “Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” Mothers tend to be pretty clear on whether it's their son on the cross or not.

If Jesus wasn't crucified and then resurrected, how do we explain the rise of the Early Church with the beliefs that it had?

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:38 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi our response  is that he has not been crucified  by anyone  according  to holy Quran.

@Irfani313 Thanks for your comment.  Peter was sure that he was a witness not only of the death of Jesus but also of his resurrection

On 4/19/2022 at 10:08 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

He also knew that the people listening to him had see the events of Jesus the Messiah's life and knew about his death

On 4/19/2022 at 10:08 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

It would seem that in oppostion to eye witnesses both followers of Jesus and also those who didn't, we have one verse from the Qur'an which is notoriously hard to interpret.

Why does Islam suggest that Jesus the Messiah didn't die - what advantage is it to the islamic faith to undermine the bases of the growth and formation of Christianity.  What makes Jesus special or even a prophet if his predictions of his own death were false and turned out to be lies?  How can Islam uphold Jesus the Messiah as a prophet if his core teaching is shown to be in error?

The resurrection, as a historical fact, is an event which gives us reason to trust God in the face of death.  Death is something we must all face.  Does Islam have an answer to the power of death? 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Dave follower of The Way

[Nad_M]

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Why did the disciples, from the very first, say that Jesus had been crucified and killed?

The Quran depicts the whole matter appearing as if the Jews had succeeded in their evil, murdering plots because, among other reasons, Jesus was missing, or as the Quran says God "tawaffa" him, purified him and made him ascend to Heaven. This instead prevented the humiliation that wouldve happened if his enemies got to the body. If they presented it to the people in a humiliated state, leading to a psychological victory for the Israelites 

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4:158"Allah took him up to Himself". 

They couldnt even kill him, nor could they damage his body and God states He would raise him up to himself, meaning that not only his body wouldnt be humiliated but it would be honored by God instead.

God thus lifted Jesus up and did not leave a trace of him with them yet even without proof for their claims, the Israelites that wanted him dead managed to start a rumor that quickly spread and was believed. The resulting confusion was similar to that of the rumor of the prophet Muhammad's death during the battle of Uhud 3:144.

Roman crucifixions occured daily and by the hundreds, of any agitators to the point that they would sometimes run out of wood for the crosses. The accusing Jews could easily pass off their boastful claims as fact in those circumstances, regardless of whether they truly believed their own claim or not. This rumor spread among both friends and foes. It is entirely possible at this point that not only the Jews were unaware of Jesus' true whereabouts, but neither were his followers. The confusing absence of a prophet has been a means of testing the followers left behind, whether they would remain on the clear path outlined by the prophet when he was in their midst, maintain his directives, or start innovating in the religion and go back to their sinful ways. This occured with Moses, as he retreated away from his people to receive revelation, just as it did with Muhammad when many fell into despair during the battle of Uhud, and later when he died 

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3:144"And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels?" 

Whether Jesus' followers were aware or not of his true whereabouts, the fact is innovation progressively crept into the community that believed in him, just as the Israelites that knew exactly where Moses was and what he was doing, and yet re-introduced idol worship into the religion just within 40 days of his absence. It is thus meaningless to argue that the corruptions the Quran denounces in regards to Jesus' teachings were introduced early on following the end of his earthly stay. Had Moses and Aaron not quickly and violently corrected the corruptions to their teachings, executing the guilty by the thousands, nothing would have prevented the same kind of falsehood to be passed off as "genuine teachings" of Moses, as was done with Jesus 

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5:117"I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness". 

Jesus did not have the occasion to do as Moses and Aaron did very early on so as to prevent the lies attributed to them from becoming "orthodoxy". However, if they escaped Jesus condemnation, it does not mean God was unaware of their evil doings. 

These innovations might have initiated among Jesus' close circle, through re-interpretations of his teachings, or among the wave of new converts that supplanted them. To this new, outter circle, the claim that he was captured and killed resonnated as closer to the truth and a more honest assessment of his disappearance.

His gruesome death became an attractive narrative of heroism and martyrdom not only for the sake of his followers but for the entire human race. Prior to Jesus becoming God, the pagans scoffed at the notion of a human savior dying a cursed death then resurrecting. But the later introduction and spread of the deviant notion of Jesus' divinity made the Christian religion fit more easily into their paradigm. 

As the Quran says in the context of Jesus' supposed divine sonship 

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9:30"they immitate the saying of those who disbelieved before".

Gentiles of the region believed in Mithraism, a religion already spread all throughout Europe and Asia minor centuries prior to the birth of Christianity. Among such beliefs is the death and resurrection of Osiris. Those ritually sharing in that death and resurrection through baptism had their sins remitted. The pagan Roman authorities thus welcomed the new religion seeing it was in congruence with centuries of tradition of dying and/or mutilated savior gods. 

As the early church father Justin Martyr conceded

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"when we say...Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified, died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propose nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you consider sons of Zeus".

The sect that "won" and became "orthodoxy" achieved victory by political rather than epistemic means. The dominant branch was but one among many early, conflicting Christian sects, as even reflected in Paul's letters and the desperate struggles he had with them to maintain control of his own congregations. The process was not a difficult one considering Mithraism's tendancy to accommodate with other rival cults, throughout its vast geographical spread, before and after Christianity. Christianity of course wasnt that accomodating, doing everything to supplant it due to the disturbing similarities. Many Church Fathers (Justin, Origen, Tertullian) attempted rationalizing Mithraism's similarities with their religion; "satanic imitations" being the standard explanation. The fine details of those similarities are now lost due to the Christian destructions of all "mithraes" they could put their hands on as well as persecute its followers. The task of reconstructing which themes Mithraism absorbed from Christianity so as to embellish its own narrative, versus what actually pre-dated Christianity, becomes a speculative task. But the presence of such vehement defenses by church authorities reveals their major embarrasement, their discomfort at their opponents' accusations of plagiarism. Instead of engaging their critics in debate, these church fathers and other Christian "orthodox" writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries slandered their opponents with exaggerated or even false charges, shunned them or socially intimidiated them. This pattern of engaging their critics is in itself revealing of their own insecurities.

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

There were witnesses including a disciple.

These witnesses are not the ones to whom the gospels are ascribed. It isn't even known who authored the gospels so as to ascertain the truthfulness of their testimony as to who saw what.

While there is mention in Jn19:25-27 of a "disciple" being near Jesus at the cross, there is no proof that this unnamed disciple mentionned by John's Gospel's writer (mentionned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) is John the son of Zebedee.

That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels dont mention a "disciple whom Jesus loved". So that "beloved disciple" who witnessed the crucifixion is the John who authored the gospel that holds his name, yet that "beloved disciple" fails to mention the spectacular transfiguration of Jesus, and the talking cloud, of which he was only 1 of 3 eyewitnesses Matt17:1-13,Mk9:2-13?

That is not to mention that "beloved disciple"'s silence of other events of which he was the privileged eyewitness, leaving instead others who werent present to those events to testify in his place. Incidents such as the raising of Jairus' daughter Mk5:37-42 or Jesus' ascencion Lk24:33-51.

There are various theories on the identity of that unknown and unnamed male disciple "whom Jesus loved" that allegedly stood near Jesus on the cross. According to the NT, he was one of the unknown eyewitnesses who recounted the event to the several unknown writers of the Gospel of John, as attested by the text

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Jn21:24"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true".

Who are "we" and who is the one whose testimony is believed to be true?

The NT sometimes speaks of "disciples" without them being necessarly those among his inner circle of 12. For example Paul says the resurrected Jesus firstly appeared to Peter then to the twelve 1Cor15:15 at a time when Judas was already dead Matt27:5, and his successor had not yet been chosen Acts1:26. The other Gospels also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross. They only mention a group of women watching the scene from a distant place.

Accepting this for argument's sake, unlike his male followers, these women would probably have been allowed to watch without being arrested, provided that they didnt try to interfere. Execution sites were guarded by Romans who would certainly not allow access to the followers and accomplices of one who was supposedly executed for being a political agitator that could threaten the state Matt27:37,Mk15:26,Lk23:38,Jn19:19-22. It isnt even known how Jesus - or any other victim of this brutal Roman execution method - was affixed to the cross. The earliest artistic depictions of Jesus’ death were made centuries after the fact, long after the Roman Empire had turned Christian and outlawed this punishment.

Also, there are very few archaeological remains of crucifixion as a practice in general. In fact the only known solid piece of physical evidence is a 1st century C.E. heel-bone pierced by a nail, found in 1968 in a Jewish tomb in Jerusalem. The piercing doesnt even follow the image of crucifixion made famous in Christian iconography.

[Nad_M]

1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Why does Islam suggest that Jesus the Messiah didn't die - what advantage is it to the islamic faith to undermine the bases of the growth and formation of Christianity.

The Quran, as already said, does not seek to accommodate anyone at the expense of truth. In 4:157-8 it answer the Jews' mockeries about having succeeded in killing a supposed prophet of God. It refutes their arrogance and reiterates Allah's unchanging way concerning the prevailing of His messengers/rusul.

According to this divine pattern, certain messengers sent with clear proofs for their arguments and warnings of destruction leads God to implement these threats upon the rejecters once the deadline is reached 58:20-21,48:22-23,36:26-32,40:51,77,43:42. The Messenger, along with those that are with the Messenger are saved, and those that are not perish or are forcefully subjugated. Among these messengers are Nuh, Hud, Ibrahim, Salih, Shuayb, Musa, Jesus and Muhammad.

The Quran dismisses whatever way the disbelievers attempted at Jesus' life, including their desire to crucify him as was common in those days, and they did attempt many ways 5:110 including stoning him. The object of the verses therefore isnt to deny the crucifixion specifically, nor to delve into the Christian, unbiblical dogmas surrounding it, such as it being the necessary atonement for mankind's supposed sins and inherited depravity from Adam.

These strange concepts are indirectly addressed and refuted in verses establishing the principles of non-transmission of sins and individual accountability. The object of these verses is rather to negate the idea that Jesus' opponents succeeded in murdering him by any means, just like they were now attempting with the Ishmaelite prophet. Should they have succeeded it would have defeated God's word and promise concerning the truthfulness of His prophets and their warnings.

Jesus, the messenger sent with an undeniable manifestation of the Truth as well as clear warnings of destruction to befall his rejecters, was protected by Allah like others before him. 

God would console his messenger, just as was done with his predecessors, those sent with an undeniable manifestation of the Truth, that they will be protected. Just as Jesus and Ibrahim were preserved from any harm and humiliation when seized by their opponents 21:68-71,29:24,37:97-8, Muhammad was rescued from the harm and the constant plotting of his enemies 5:67,8:30,33:37 like Salih before him 27:47-53. Allah promised Moses and his brother Aaron, reassuring them prior to their encounter with the greatest tyrant of the earth 

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40:45,28:35"We will strengthen your arm through your brother and grant you both supremacy so they will not reach you. [It will be] through Our signs; you and those who follow you will be the predominant".

 

1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

How can Islam uphold Jesus the Messiah as a prophet if his core teaching is shown to be in error?

His teachings, as depicted by the authors of the gospels are internally inconsistent and depict him as a false prophet and failed messiah. That is clear in light of the HB messianic requirements that are well known.

According to the Quran, Allah defeated his enemies' conspiracies to allow Jesus the fullfilment of his mission. Whether from the moment his remarkable prophetic experience began while still an infant, until he attained the peak of his physical maturity toward the end of his ministry, he was in Allah's protection

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3:46,5:110"and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments".

When his time finally came and the transmission of his message fulfilled, Allah saved him from the hands of his enemies by lifting him up. Jesus was not sent on a suicide mission and neither did he want to purposefully die as a human offering, something God explicitly abhors in both the HB, which he upheld to the letter as well as his early followers after him, and the Quran.

According to Islam, Jesus therefore succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey. His mission was deep, intricate, far reaching and much more elaborate, pertinent, consistent and beautiful than what is attributed to him by the Greek authors. By relating the essential landmarks of his prophetic mission as well as the basis of the message he was commanded to faithfully transmit, saved his honor both physically and spiritually by clearing him of those that slandered him, attributed false teachings to him, corrupted his message, contrary to the disastrous Christian depiction that is made of him; his humiliating ending at the hands of his opponents, his teachings that were misappropriated and assimilated into the religion of a pagan entity, by unknown pagans whose inventions surrounding Jesus' life events dont stand to historical scrutiny, and neither to any cursory reader of the HB from where they attempted finding a theological basis for their perversions.

This painstaking, sketchy endeavour is the result of Christians attempting to reconstruct Jesus as a heroic figure after his death, just as pagans in those times deified their dead emperors or called the living ruler "son of god", creating events that did not happen; Jesus' pre-existence, his co-creation of the universe with God, his miraculous birth, miracles, arrest, trial, crucifixion, resurrection, post-resurrection appearances, and reunion with God his Father were all the inventions of story tellers trying to restrospectively fit Jesus within both the Jewish messianic tradition and the writers' own greco-roman religious background. Islam, the religion of all prophets is a religion of success. Unlike the meaningless, devastating, disgraceful, helpless death of the invented central figure of Christianity, neither Muhammad nor Jesus were failures.

Whether Jesus' message survived now or not is irrelevant. The success of a prophet's mission of being the faithful conveyor of his God's message is independant of whether his addressees hearken his calls, mend their ways, preserve his message or attempt to kill him. All prophets attest to this reality. Prophets are not sent to cause forceful spiritual reform. Their duty is only to deliver the warnings and glad tidings, as here stated by the prophet Hud

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11:57"But if you turn back, then indeed I have delivered to you the message with which I have been sent to you, and my Lord will bring another people in your place, and you cannot do Him any harm; surely my Lord is the Preserver of all things". 

It is then up to the people themselves to hearken the calls and act accordingly. If they do it is for their own benefit, if not it is their own loss. Both outcomes have no bearing on the truthfulness of a prophet or the accomplishment of his mission.

 

1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Death is something we must all face.  Does Islam have an answer to the power of death?

God has power over all things, including death. 

[Irfani313]

8 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

@Irfani313 Thanks for your comment.  Peter was sure that he was a witness not only of the death of Jesus but also of his resurrection

He also knew that the people listening to him had see the events of Jesus the Messiah's life and knew about his death

It would seem that in oppostion to eye witnesses both followers of Jesus and also those who didn't, we have one verse from the Qur'an which is notoriously hard to interpret.

Why does Islam suggest that Jesus the Messiah didn't die - what advantage is it to the islamic faith to undermine the bases of the growth and formation of Christianity.  What makes Jesus special or even a prophet if his predictions of his own death were false and turned out to be lies?  How can Islam uphold Jesus the Messiah as a prophet if his core teaching is shown to be in error?

The resurrection, as a historical fact, is an event which gives us reason to trust God in the face of death.  Death is something we must all face.  Does Islam have an answer to the power of death? 

Between Peter (May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless his soul) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), I’ll pick Allah’s words. 
 

Besides in Islam, we need two to four witnesses of upright Muslims to accept a testimony. Peter (May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless his soul) was the only one there if indeed it was true.  
 

Resurrection is totally Islamic concept, and every Muslim believes in it wholeheartedly, what we don’t ascribe to is the made up story of early, mid, or late Christians about Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام). 
 

Just to keep it simple, I’ll present you something that my Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) presented to the Christians visiting him from Yemen, “if Jesus is the son of God on account of his miraculous birth without a father, then what do you say about Adam, who had neither a mother nor a father?”

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/22/2022 at 10:57 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Why does Islam suggest that Jesus the Messiah didn't die - what advantage is it to the islamic faith to undermine the bases of the growth and formation of Christianity.  What makes Jesus special or even a prophet if his predictions of his own death were false and turned out to be lies?  How can Islam uphold Jesus the Messiah as a prophet if his core teaching is shown to be in error?

The resurrection, as a historical fact, is an event which gives us reason to trust God in the face of death.  Death is something we must all face.  Does Islam have an answer to the power of death? 

Hi he has not predicted his deat at that era soo his prediction is not false which it will be occure in endtimes after reappearance of Imam Mahdi(aj)  , Islam undermines any deviation in original teachings whether in Christanity or Judaism or Islam which current christanity & Judaism & majority of Islamic sects has no relation to original divine teachings which Islam confirms core  teachings of Jesus the Messiah as a prophet but on the other hand shows fallacy of people who have called themselves as his followers but they have ignored core teachings of Jesus the Messiah as a prophet then they called their fabrication & deviation as christanity.

In Islam every living creature will face death on it's proper time.

[Leslie P]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Nad_M said:

The Quran depicts the whole matter appearing as if the Jews had succeeded in their evil, murdering plots because, among other reasons, Jesus was missing, or as the Quran says God "tawaffa" him, purified him and made him ascend to Heaven.

<snip>

Also, there are very few archaeological remains of crucifixion as a practice in general. In fact the only known solid piece of physical evidence is a 1st century C.E. heel-bone pierced by a nail, found in 1968 in a Jewish tomb in Jerusalem. The piercing doesnt even follow the image of crucifixion made famous in Christian iconography.

Thank you for your very extensive reply. A lot of work must have gone into that. I do have a few thoughts on what you wrote:

Mithraism is completely different to Christianity, and the theory that Christianity derived from it is long abandoned in serious academic circles. We know little about it; what we do know about it is substantially different to Christianity, and there is no evidence of either copying from the other in C1. Indeed, Paul is full of the Jewish root of Christianity, and is very unpleasant about getting involved with any other religions.

The church fathers you quote as talking about similarity, were complaining that later Mithraism, which was constantly changing, had stolen from Christianity.

 

I'm not needing any particular theory on who the authors of the Gospels are. What we do know is that Jesus' mother, aunt, Mary Magdalene and the 'disciple Jesus loved' all witnessed the crucifixion, and were close enough to talk to Jesus. With witnesses that strong we can take it as a fixed point that Jesus was crucified, unless one is committed for some other reason to saying it only appeared that way (as I understand it that's your position?).

Which then leads to the interesting question of why the disciples claimed that Jesus was resurrected. They get a good write-up in the Quran, so it's not deception. Every shred of the extensive evidence tells us that they believed this from the very beginning. The disciples who witnessed the actual events maintained control of the church (Acts 1:21,22; Galatians 2:9 etc). The body disappearing is a necessary, but not sufficient, explanation for their claim the Jesus was resurrected.

So I think we're still looking for that elusive reason why the disciples claimed Jesus was resurrected.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Excerpts from the contradictions mentioned in these texts 
Now some of the contradictions in these texts are expressed to clarify this issue:

 

• Number of women
• Stone and Angel
• Problem three days and three nights

 

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Number of women
According to Matthew, they are only Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Jacob's mother).

Mark says there are three of them: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jacob, and Salome.

But Luke quotes more than this: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women who were with them.

But John mentions only Mary Magdalene, who, according to the texts of  Gospels ,Christ has casted out seven demons from her body.

 

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Stone and Angel
According to Matthew, the stone was moved by the angels, and after the women arrived, a great earthquake occurred and the angel was sitting on the stone outside the tomb.

But Mark says that when the women arrived at the tomb, they saw that the stone had been removed before they arrived. In Mark's account, there is no great earthquake, and the angel is sitting inside the tomb, not as Matthew narrated outside the tomb.

Luke also reports that the stone was rolled before the women arrived, but unlike Matthew and Mark, it does not mention the angel at all. According to him, after the women were amazed by the story of the stone, they saw two angels (not an angel) sitting inside the tomb (not outside it).

But in the narration of John, Mary Magdalene reaches the tomb when the stone is rolled from the tomb and there is no trace of an angel. He saw nothing and then rushed to Peter and John and returned with them to the tomb, but they saw no sign of Christ or the angel. When Peter and John were leaving, Mary looked at the tomb and saw the angel[s] sitting one on top and the other on the  down !!

 

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Problem three days and three nights
In addition to the earlier objections to the Gospels, Christ told his disciples about his crucifixion, death, and resurrection, that is, that he would rise from the dead after three days and three nights, but the truth is that Christ remained in the grave for only two nights and one day. ; Because his burial took place on Friday evening and his resurrection at dawn on Sunday.

In addition to all these contradictions, John states that Christ's disciples were unaware of Christ's resurrection from the dead, that is, that Christ did not inform them. Thus, according to Luke, the disciples denied the women's statement about the resurrection of Christ. John also says of Peter and John, And yet they understood not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

The conclusion to be drawn from the narrations is that either the news of Christ's death, cross, and resurrection is not true (as many Christian scholars have emphasized), or we must say that John says that the disciples of Christ, especially his guardian Peter, were unaware of his resurrection. Is wrong. [7]

http://pajoohe.ir/رستاخیز-عیسی-Resurrection-of-Jesus__a-42314.aspx

[Ashvazdanghe]

1. The resurrection of Jesus; Physical or spiritual?
2.  

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The resurrection of Jesus; Physical or spiritual?
One of the fundamental problems that has occupied the Christian church and its thinkers is the answer to the question of whether the resurrection of Jesus was physical or spiritual.

The reason for this question is that according to Christian theology, Jesus was a god who died on the cross to atone for human sins. This purpose was achieved by giving him life; But after death, is there any reason why Jesus should still be a God who confines himself to a limited and incapable body?

But we have to see how the Bible itself speaks about this. The last chapter of the Gospels tells the story of Jesus' resurrection. In these narrations it is clearly stated that Jesus rose from the earth with his body, because the women who came there found the tomb empty and the angels who were there also emphasized that Jesus is not in the tomb. [8]

So according to the text of the Gospels, the theological problem facing the Christian theologians is that now that Jesus has made atonement by giving his life, what is the need to limit his infinite God in the body of Jesus?

The answer to this question has become a major controversy among the Christian churches.

 

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Easter
In general, it can be said that there are many objections to the resurrection of Christ, but the general Christian community has accepted this event and every year on the anniversary of Christ's resurrection, they celebrate Easter, which is the most important holiday in the church calendar; Although less famous than Christmas.

Easter is celebrated on the anniversary of the Jewish Passover, the anniversary of the Israelites' exodus from Egypt. [9] The date of Easter changes every year, and the dates of many other Christian holidays are determined by the day of Easter. Christians believe that  revitalization or resurrection of Christ shows that death is not the end of everything. On this day, many Christians go to church to thank God for  life and livng of Christ. Church bells are rung for this occasion and are decorated with flowers such as white lilies associated with Easter. The colors in the churches are changed to white and gold because they are considered the best colors.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Mithraism is completely different to Christianity, and the theory that Christianity derived from it is long abandoned in serious academic circles. We know little about it; what we do know about it is substantially different to Christianity, and there is no evidence of either copying from the other in C1. Indeed, Paul is full of the Jewish root of Christianity, and is very unpleasant about getting involved with any other religions.

The church fathers you quote as talking about similarity, were complaining that later Mithraism, which was constantly changing, had stolen from Christianity

One of the evidences that strengthens the borrowing of this belief from the ancient and polytheistic religions is the existence of many contradictions in the narrations of the four Gospels. Contradictions that accept all around it, despite theological justifications, seem contrary to wisdom.

After quoting the Gospels about the resurrection of Christ, at first glance the intensity of the differences between the texts becomes clear to the reader that he does not doubt that these texts are not revelatory, because if we acknowledge one, we must deny the other. This is the point that reason and logic confirm.

http://pajoohe.ir/رستاخیز-عیسی-Resurrection-of-Jesus__a-42314.aspx

https://translate.google.com/?sl=fa&tl=en&text=http%3A%2F%2Fpajoohe.ir%2Fرستاخیز-عیسی-Resurrection-of-Jesus__a-42314.aspx&op=translate

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Paul is full of the Jewish root of Christianity, and is very unpleasant about getting involved with any other religions.

 

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Paul also interprets some verses of the Torah with the resurrection of Jesus:

And ye shall say unto the children of Israel, Every year on the tenth day of this month, every family shall prepare a lamb of them: and on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month shall all the children of Israel sacrifice the lambs. Eat unleavened bread and bitter vegetables. "You will be obligated forever." (Exodus 12: 3-18)

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3. Speak ye to all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for a house:.............

.....8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roasted with fire; and unleavened bread, and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

https://biblics.com/en/bible/webster-bible-translation/old-testament/exodus/12/3-18

In interpreting these verses of the Exodus, Paul introduces Christ as the sacrifice and lamb of Passover:

7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.w 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened breadx of sincerity and truth.

https://biblia.com/bible/niv/1-corinthians/5/7-9

 

 

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There are two points to consider in Paul's interpretation: first, that the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and deliverance from Egyptian bondage is the new life and resurrection of Jesus Christ of the New Testament;Second, Jesus Christ is the sacrificial lamb of passover that symbolizes life and eternal life

The interpretation of the Old Testament in Paul's view, whether emphasizing that Christian theology is rooted in the Old Testament or reflecting his emphasis on faith and the rejection of the law, is the "resurrection of Christ" for Paul to be resurreection of all in Christ:

20 But in fact fChrist has been raised from the dead, gthe firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as hby a man came death, iby a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For jas in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1-corinthians/15/20-23

https://urd.ac.ir/fa/cont/9363/در-باب-پولس-و-رستاخیز-عیسی-مسیح

[Nad_M]

On 4/24/2022 at 4:29 PM, Leslie P said:

Mithraism is completely different to Christianity, and the theory that Christianity derived from it is long abandoned in serious academic circles.

Christianity hasn't derived from it, but from Judaism. However the non-Jewish elements, including divine sonship, resurrection, consumption of the gods were all concepts that preceded and were contemporary to Christianity. These were the beliefs of the majority of converts from the Greco-Roman world. This notion has not been discarded by scholarship, including in the anti-mythicist camp. As to what came first, see my previous comments. The claims of the gospel writers as to who saw what isn't strong evidence, for the reasons previously mentioned. I've also explained why it is more probable to say that the crucifixion and resurrection were retrospectively applied to Jesus, irrespective of what Islam says. The disciples, as the Quran says were under Jesus' control while he was among them, but when he left, they were on their own.  

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Nad_M said:

They couldnt even kill him, nor could they damage his body and God states He would raise him up to himself, meaning that not only his body wouldnt be humiliated but it would be honored by God instead.

Why is Islam so concerned with arguing that Jesus didn't die.  The context of the verse in question is about the Jews killing the prophets

155  Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.

What makes Jesus someone who God wants to save from death?  The Trustworthy Injil is clear that it is not in deceptivly removing Jesus from earth that God and Jesus are honoured.  In fact that would be a dishonerable act; a lie and a deception.  It is in allowing Jesus to humbly serve and pass through death to be raised from death that both God and Jesus are honoured and victory is won over evil and death.

A hymn which the early followers of Jesus used clearly expresses this position recorded in Philippians chapter 2

⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

⁶ who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
⁷ rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
⁸ And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death –
        even death on a cross!

⁹ Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
¹¹ and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Nad_M said:

the fact is innovation progressively crept into the community that believed in him

On 4/26/2022 at 10:59 AM, Nad_M said:

The disciples, as the Quran says were under Jesus' control while he was among them, but when he left, they were on their own.  

The fact of the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah shows that he lived among his disciples for 50 days after his resurrection teaching and guiding them in the truth of who he was and what had happened.  Inovation did not creep in as Jesus was present with them to teach, explain and guide.

You also suggest that they were left on their own.  The Trustworthy Injil is clear that this is not the case.  The Holy Sp[irit, God's very being came and lived in each follower of Jesus guiding directing amnd teaching.

Jesus the Messiah talking about the work of the Holy Spirit said, faithfully recorded by an eye witness (John chapter 16)

¹³ But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. ¹⁴ He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Jesus the Messiah is saying that his followers would continue to be led into truth as the Holy Spirit lives in them.

The Holy Spirit is still living and working in the followers of Jesus the Messiah to guide into truth and empower them to live for God.  Anyone who calls on God through Jesus the Messiah will receive the Holy Spirit.  Jesus the Messiah, through the Holy Spirit is alive and well in his followers today.

[Irfani313]

Here’s why Brother Dave, because dear Christians can’t seem to accept the fact that the pure Christianity had been adulterated by the likes of Paul (original Saul) the Roman-Jewish agents who turned the pure Islamic teachings of Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) upside down, into a Roman pagan belief system of god and son, statues, wine/alcohol, no laws, no way of life, open to new editions every decade till 2000 years later, this is what Christianity looks like, that the religion whose major leader, Jesus son of pure Mary (عليه السلام) who won’t eat more than half a meal a day, would come to a pope or leaders clad in silks, velvets, golds, and feeding people wine in Eucharist, driving and living in luxury, supporting modern war economies, capitalism exploits, and slavery.
 

From Islamic perspective, true message of Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) died at the infancy because his Sharia didn’t had curators like the ones Allah gave to Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in the form of his progeny, the holy Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 
 

Pauline Christianity or Pauline theology (also Paulism or Paulanity),^[2] otherwise referred to as Gentile Christianity,^[3] is the theology and form of Christianity which developed from the beliefs and doctrines espoused by the Hellenistic-JewishApostle Paul through his writings and those New Testament writings traditionally attributed to him. Paul's beliefs were rooted in the earliest Jewish Christianity, but deviated from this Jewish Christianity in their emphasis on inclusion of the Gentiles into God's New Covenant, and his rejection of circumcision as an unnecessary token of upholding the Mosaic Law.^[3][4][5]

[Nad_M]

4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

In fact that would be a dishonerable act; a lie and a deception

It does not say that it was made to appear that Jesus died on the cross, in a purposeful divine plan to confuse his contemporaries. The Quran answers in 4:157-8 the Jews' mockeries about having succeeded in killing a supposed prophet of God. It refutes their arrogance and reiterates Allah's unchanging way concerning the prevailing of His messengers/rusul. See earlier post.

4:157-158 then states that those who differ on what is stated in the verse about Jesus not having being killed are in shakkin/suspicion about that very statement. It then goes on to say why Christians entertain shakkin/suspicion about the Quranic statement that Jesus was not killed: they have formed a wrong conclusion about events that they themselves had no knowledge about and are following nothing but a conjecture, started by those Bani Israel contemporaries and enemies of Jesus. Some claimed to have killed him and others that they crucified him yet they had no body to prove their lies, no trace of Jesus was ever found.

This devastating defeat was retrospectively written as a divinely planned victory since before the universe's creation. IT was then put in writing by several unknown authors whom nobody knows, who attributed their works to Jesus' close disciples yet these disciples are reported to have fled the scene at Jesus' arrest. Add to this the fact that not even a single historian exists, attesting to the wonderful and cataclysmic events surrounding the crucifiction that were allegedly witnessed by an entire city. The NT itself testifies to the fact that his close circle, let alone the rest of his followers never approached the dead body and could not therefore burry it. This is all explained in an earlier post.

Christians speaking of the Quran's depiction of Jesus as deception should look closer to their own writings. 

Isnt it surprising that the Lord's prayer taught by Jesus himself (as opposed to every other prayer that others taught to say in Jesus’ name), never mentioned Jesus, nor vicarious atonement, nor him as messiah, nor him as intermediary, nor any trinity, among anything else Christological? This foundational prayer is more anti-christian than any passage one may find in the entire Bible, or the Quran. Besides the striking lack of all Christologies, it undermines the notion that temptation is the product of inherent human depravity and satanic influence. Rather it is God, who is perfectly righteous, whom the worshiper asks 

"not to lead us into temptation". 

It further destroys the Pauline concept of vicarious atonement, opening the way to forgiveness through one's own effort 

"forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us".

[Dawid Das]

its not about true or not its about spirituality. most christians are not spiritual like 90% of them. when you see spirituality you know you are in the truth. being religious dorsn't mean you are spiritual. spirituality>>>>>>>>>>religious.

if you are truly spiritual nothing on earth will faze you.

[Leslie P]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:59 AM, Nad_M said:

Christianity hasn't derived from it, but from Judaism. However the non-Jewish elements, including divine sonship, resurrection, consumption of the gods were all concepts that preceded and were contemporary to Christianity. These were the beliefs of the majority of converts from the Greco-Roman world. This notion has not been discarded by scholarship, including in the anti-mythicist camp. As to what came first, see my previous comments......The disciples, as the Quran says were under Jesus' control while he was among them, but when he left, they were on their own.  

Thanks for the reply. I do have a couple of questions to ask.

You seem to paint this picture of disciples unable to control their church, and of converts from paganism completely changing the mission, teaching and human status of Jesus. Yet the NT has the disciples applying tight control within a well established leadership structure. As examples: Peter needing God's direct orders over admitting Gentiles in Acts 10,11; Paul's instructions on communion discipline (1 Cor 11); his robust clarification over resurrection (1 Cor 15); the pillars of the church (Gal 2:9); the Jerusalem council (Acts 15).

The historical evidence, in multiple sources and forms, of Paul's letters and Acts tell us very clearly that the messages of resurrection, divinity and the origin of communion (5 sources!) were taught from the very earliest years of Christianity.

My first question is this: Against all of that that overwhelming evidence, you state that these things came in from outside at a late stage, long after the events, with converts from paganism. What evidence do you have for that claim?

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The claims of the gospel writers as to who saw what isn't strong evidence, for the reasons previously mentioned. I've also explained why it is more probable to say that the crucifixion and resurrection were retrospectively applied to Jesus, irrespective of what Islam says.

Rereading what you've written, I'm not sure what you're referring to, I'm afraid.

It's just not possible to read the NT without finding references to OT Judaism soaking the pages. The writers quote the OT, and talk about promises made in a very Jewish context coming true.

So my second question is, why do you think the Jewish Early Church were actually taking their beliefs from paganism, rather than Judaism and what they had seen with their own eyes?

[Nad_M]

The church was so well under control that within the same generation of the disciples, this Jewish sect of the Nazarenes, whose distinction from mainstream judaism was only in the belief that Jesus was the messiah, turned upon its heels, abandoned Jewish law, adopted concepts unheard of anywhere in Judaism? Once more, these changes didnt occur "at a later stage" but very early on, as explained in a previous post. 

There is a reason why "the writers" including Paul do not quote the Hebrew Bible in this NT where Judaism is "soaking the pages". They quote from the Greek Septuagint which was hated by the rabbis as it represented the Hellenization of many Jews of the time. 

The "Jewish Early Church" very early on became irrelevant due to Paul's efforts at supplanting it, dismissing Jewish law as obsolete, reinterpreting core semitic concepts of God so as to appeal to his pagan audience. Paul's main problem was to convince his Jewish audience that the messiah's death, without accomplishing any of the messianic criteria, instead of being a failure was actually a necessity. He did so by introducing the doctrine of total depravity, making all humans de facto sinners and therefore in need of an atoning sacrifice. His addressees however already believed in the resurrection of the dead, in a just God who forgave the sins of a penitent heart. Nothing was missing in their system that Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection could fix. Paul's redeeming hero was a redundancy to them, so he was obviously met with fierce resistence wherever he preached his unscriptural ideas. This led him to eventually turn to the gentiles among whom he found a much more favorable audience.

All this is evident from a cursory reading of the NT and the writings of Paul.

That is how Christianity was shaped, using its target audience's sensitivities all the while toning down to the maximum its Jewish heritage.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Nad_M

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, Nad_M said:

yet they had no body to prove their lies, no trace of Jesus was ever found.

This is true! and why?  Because Jesus who died rose again from the dead.  He conquered death and defeated everyone's ultimate enemy - Death.  I asked before does Islam have an answer to death?

You say no body was found.  If someone died in Jesus' place wouldn't his body been available and it would still resemble Jesus?  It could then have been produced to disprove the accounts of the resurrection.

On 4/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, Nad_M said:

yet these disciples are reported

You discredit the Gospel accounts at one hand then use the same gospels to try and prove your arguments.  Eather you use them or you can't refer to them at all.

On 4/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, Nad_M said:

The NT itself testifies to the fact that his close circle, let alone the rest of his followers never approached the dead body and could not therefore burry it.

The Gospel accounts are clear that The close friends of Jesus watched the body being buried

Matthew 27 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

Mark 15 ⁴⁷ Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph saw where he was laid.

Luke 23 ⁵⁵ The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it.

Joseph of Arimathea is named in all of the accounts - obviously someone who could testify to the truth or otherwise of the events.

A number of historians and journalists have investigated the accounts of the crusifixtion and the resurrection and although were initially sceptical have arrived at the conclusion that the gospel accounts are convincingly true.

We are still left with the existance of the Christian community very close to the date of Jesus' death and resurrection.  This community grew and spread throughout the Roman empire very quickly dispite being persicuted.  This community were prepared to face death and tourcher because they belived that Jesus was God who had conquered death and hell and in rising from the dead had opened the way to an intimate relationship with God which empowered and transformed.

People today still meet the risen Jesus and and find his transforming power brings restoration and confidence in the face of death and percecution.

[Nad_M]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Nad_M said:

Jesus did not have the occasion to do as Moses and Aaron did very early on so as to prevent the lies attributed to them from becoming "orthodoxy". However, if they escaped Jesus condemnation, it does not mean God was unaware of their evil doings. 

These innovations might have initiated among Jesus' close circle, through re-interpretations of his teachings, or among the wave of new converts that supplanted them. To this new, outter circle, the claim that he was captured and killed resonnated as closer to the truth and a more honest assessment of his disappearance.

I would like to add the following.

Jesus is portrayed as fearing death and wanting to avoid it Jn7:1,11:54,Luke 22:42. He begged God (himself) 3 times, putting his forehead to the ground, to take his soul before experiencing suffering and death in Matt26:38. He does not want to experience what he was about to go through but nevertheless submits his will to that of the father, whether he decides to make him bear the cup of suffering or not 

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"Yet not My will, but Yours be done". 

Clearly, had he been given the choice, he would have refused "dying for the sins of mankind" despite having supposed foreknowledge of the divine plan of salvation since the beginning of creation, a plan which he himself sketched together with his divine partners. It also shows one of the co-equal partners submitting his will to another. Yet we never see the reverse, with the Father obediently submitting his will to the Son or the Holyspirit. That "hesitation" from Jesus cannot be attributed to his human nature as he himself states that it is his soul that feared and doubted Matt26:38. Then, when on the cross Jesus grieves for God's abandoning him. Even Revelations5 which is sometimes quoted to defend the notion of a predetermined divine masterplan of salvation through Jesus, is in fact speaking in eschatological terms, just as the whole book does. It speaks of the salvation of some people after events of great tribulation, ie the end of times. Then we have Heb5:7 throwing in the ambiguous statement that Jesus' prayers were heard and accepted by God, and this includes the desperate cry to "let this cup pass from" him. The realization of his prayer, his inability to take on the full brunt of the "sins of mankind" came in the form of Simon of Cyrene who relieved Jesus from his cross and carried it half way till Golgotha Matt27:31-33. 

This embarrassing change to the divine master plan of salvation forced another author in Jn19:17-18 to have Jesus carrying his own cross, the symbol of mankind's sins, all the way until he reached Golgotha where he was crucified. The cross in fact was not a Christian symbol until the 6th century. Could the whole "Simon of Cyrene" tale be orthodoxy's early response to a story popularised by certain gnostics that it was not Jesus but Simon who had been nailed to the cross?

 

The predictions Jesus makes as regards his impending death on the other hand are portrayed as willful self-sacrifice. In these versions, we see other inconsistencies. When he tells his disciples, several times and explicitly how he would die, they are taken by complete surprise when the events unfold Matt16,17,20,Mk8,9,10,Lk9,18. Not once are they depicted, following his supposed death, as patiently waiting his predicted resurrection after just 3 days. Neither are they depicted recalling the secret miracle once it unfolds. Even when he appeals to prophecies at the third and last prediction of his death 

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Lk18:34"The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about".

 Clearly, there was a general atmosphere of confusion as to Jesus' disappearance, a confusion which the writers could not deny as it corresponded to the reality they knew about and witnessed. But, because they were writing from the lens that he was crucified, they had to retrospectively paint this confusion as a misunderstanding by the disciples of Jesus' clear predictions. Between Jesus' desire to avoid death, his repeated predictions as to his willful execution, the misunderstandings of the disciples, the story line lacks consistency and seems muddled.

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:30 PM, Nad_M said:

Jesus is portrayed as fearing death and wanting to avoid it Jn7:1,11:54,Luke 22:42. He begged God (himself) 3 times, putting his forehead to the ground, to take his soul before experiencing suffering and death in Matt26:38. He does not want to experience what he was about to go through but nevertheless submits his will to that of the father, whether he decides to make him bear the cup of suffering or not 

Thank you for drawing attention to this acount - When you read this in the context of the whole Gospel acount of Jesus the Messiah and his life and teaching you see that it fits with the person Jesus the Messiah was.  He was a real human with real feelings and aprihensions, like you and me.  In the face of the suffering he was about to go through he acknowledged to God what was on his heart and yet subited to the road that he had chosen to tread.  When I am facing pain and hardship, I can learn from this example and be honest to God about my fears but also submit to him knowing his will is best.

On 5/2/2022 at 8:30 PM, Nad_M said:

That "hesitation" from Jesus cannot be attributed to his human nature as he himself states that it is his soul that feared and doubted Matt26:38.

Your understanding of the humanity and divity of Jesus is the problem here not the fact that Jesus talked about his "soul".  It is not Jesus' soul that made him divine.  Every human has a soul.  So Jesus the Messiah had a soul like evryone else.  Jesus by nature was human and also by nature was God, but we see here in the accounts of the garden and the cross Jesus the Messiah willingly submiting to the plan of redemtion and deliverence.  A plan we can all take advantage of as we seek to find a solution to the shame we face before the Holy and righteous God.

On 5/2/2022 at 8:30 PM, Nad_M said:

Clearly, there was a general atmosphere of confusion

Yes you are right - the disciples were looking for a victorious King Messiah figure who would defeat the Romans in battle.  So Jesus talking about death and resurrection did not make sence.  At the time of the crusifixtion their dreams were shatered.  The confusion you talk about is very realistic and is in fact one of the reasons to see the gospel acounts as authentic as they don't put the subsiquent leaders of the church in a good light.

However Jesus rose from the dead and the disciples were transformed by his appearences and teaching and subsiquently by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts chapter 1 ³ After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

We too, today, can meet the risen Jesus and know his power to transform our muddled thinking by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Nad_M]

13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Yes you are right - the disciples were looking for a victorious King Messiah figure who would defeat the Romans in battle.  So Jesus talking about death and resurrection did not make sence.

I would argue that this confusion was similar to Moses' 40 days absence during which his followers were tested. The Nazarenes, like the calf-worshiping Jews failed the test. As the rumours of Jesus' death started by his enemies became widespread, his disillusioned followers retrospectively painted the whole thing as a divine masterplan, with all the Christologies that ensued. Those among them that maintained Jewish law were sidelined by Paul's movement very early on, and within just 2 generations the little remnant of Judaism within the Jesus sect was erased. It was supplanted by a wave of converts from the greco-roman world who found in this transformed and readapted original Jewish sect, a favorable echo for their own beliefs, naming this new religion, Christianity.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Nad_M

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 5/4/2022 at 10:54 AM, Nad_M said:

The Nazarenes, like the calf-worshiping Jews failed the test.

This is an interesting perspective - You are equating the worship of Jesus with the worship of an idol.  This would be understandable if those first followers of Jesus were not monotheists.  But although, as you say, the grekk background belivers soon out numbered the Jewish background believers, we see no argument in the stories of Acts about the person of Jesus.  In fact the first followers, including Paul, honoured Jewish tradtions by worshiping in the Temple and in synagogues, and by teaching from the Jewish scriptures.

When you study Greek and Roman mythology, unlike your comment, you find very little that echos their myths in the stories and beliefs about Jesus.  Jesus was not a powerful, promiscuous, angry demigod.  His life was one of purity, humility and suffering, caring for the poor and marginalised, seeking obscurity rather than fame.

His divinity didn't come as his humanity was purged out of him.  He is seen as pre-existant before all time.  There is no point where he came into existance by some "divine promiscuity" (God forbid).  His suffering and death, therefore, did not remove his humanity making him able to join the pathanon of gods in 'heaven'.  Rather, he carried that humanity through death to resurrection and ascension to 'the heavenly realms'.  See this hymn to Jesus from Ephesians chapter 1

¹⁹ [That you may know God's] incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength ²⁰ he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, ²¹ far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. ²² And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, ²³ which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

My OP asking "What if it is true?" finds an answer in this hymn writen only 30 years after Jesus death and resurrection.

[Nad_M]

On 5/5/2022 at 5:52 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

This is an interesting perspective - You are equating the worship of Jesus with the worship of an idol.

No i am equating the departure of the Nazarenes from the way of Jesus, which includes strict observance of Jewish law, to the departure of the Israelites from the way of Moses during his 40 days absence.

Both corruptions occurred very early on following a prophet's absence, the difference with Moses being that the transgressors were executed while in Jesus' case it was impossible since he had left this world.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:22 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

This is an interesting perspective - You are equating the worship of Jesus with the worship of an idol.  This would be understandable if those first followers of Jesus were not monotheists.  But although, as you say, the grekk background belivers soon out numbered the Jewish background believers, we see no argument in the stories of Acts about the person of Jesus.  In fact the first followers, including Paul, honoured Jewish tradtions by worshiping in the Temple and in synagogues, and by teaching from the Jewish scriptures.

Hi worshiping any creature whether human or no human even worshiping any prophet likewise of prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) is equal to worshiping of an idol , which according to holy Quran both prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) & his mother lady Mary (sa) will disassociate from anyone who have worshiped them instead of God/Allah .

 Anyway  you must think which you are following  religion of   prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) or a religion which  Paul has introduced  in name of Christanity .

 

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Verse 55 of Aal-i Imraan states that the followers of Prophet Jesus (a) are superior amongst all the disbelievers. If this is the case, then why should we not follow his religion so that on the Day of Resurrection, we may be considered superior amongst all the disbelievers?

 

This verse is addressing both Christians and Muslims. The message it wishes to convey is that the Jews are, until the Day of Resurrection, inferior to whoever that considers following Prophet Jesus (a) obligatory upon themselves. Note that this includes both Christians, who hold the message of Prophet Jesus (a) as the cornerstone of their faith, and Muslims, who hold the Prophet (a) in high esteem as one of the divinely inspired prophets of God.

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 However, the question remains as to why Muslims are not considered amongst those who disbelieved in the prophethood of Prophet Jesus (a). It should be noted that the term ‘disbeliever’ here is referring to one who denies the truth. Meaning, the Jews who deny the legitimacy of Jesus’ (a) prophethood. However, not only do Muslims affirm the validity of the prophethood of Prophet Jesus (a), rather, they are his true followers and the followers of his successor, the Prophet Muhammad (s).

Muslims consider Prophet Jesus (a) as being one of the greatest prophets in history and the messenger of a divine book and law. Furthermore, they consider him as the third of the Ulu al-‘Azm. Therefore, when God states that “…I shall set those who follow you [Jesus (a)] above the faithless until the Day of Resurrection,” there is no possibility whatsoever that He’s alluding to the Muslims because this statement doesn’t even apply to them.

 

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1 – What is meant by the followers of Prophet Jesus (a) is in fact the followers of Prophet Muhmmad (s). Three arguments substantiate this claim:

a) Chronologically speaking, the religion of Prophet Muhammad (s) and his followers succeeds that of Prophet Jesus (a). When it is said that one succeeds the other, it means that there was an individual who was followed by another after him. It’s important to note that the coming of one does not contradict the coming of another.

b) Our Prophet, the Prophet Muhammad (s), re-affirmed the religion of Prophet Jesus (a) and his divine book. It can be said that if a person affirms and individual and their message as being true, they have in reality followed the other.

c) The law brought by the Prophet Muhammad (s) is in unity with the message of monotheism preached by the Prophets who preceded him.

 

On 5/5/2022 at 9:22 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

In fact the first followers, including Paul, honoured Jewish tradtions by worshiping in the Temple and in synagogues, and by teaching from the Jewish scriptures.

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3 – The mentioned verse declares that God, the Almighty, deems the Christians[5] superior to the Jews whose ancestors disbelieved in the prophethood of Jesus (a) and plotted against him. It intends to inform that the divine punishment of God shall descend upon the Jews with severity.[6]

This interpretation, which is in line with the apparent meaning of the verse, is amongst those miraculous Qur’aanic verses which foretell significant incidents to come. Its message is clearly stated: the followers of Prophet Jesus (a) will be forever superior to the Jews who opposed this divine Prophet.

In present times, this reality can be seen before us. Without the support of the Christians, the Jews and Zionists of today cannot pursue their political and social agendas for even a day.[7] In other words, they have become completely self-reliant upon the nation which they once fought against.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

addendum reference  link

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa7856

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

 "Misinterpretation". This fallacy occurs when a person does not make any changes or interference in the words of the text or speech and all the material is retold in accordance with the facts and only in their justification and interpretation a fallacy is made and something contrary to the main purpose is attributed to them [ 2].

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (17)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/5:17

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divinity of Jesus Christ ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has greatly involved Christian scholars and missionaries. The question is: If Jesus Christ is God and calls himself God, then should there be such an important thing in the Bible? where is it? They try very hard to show that it is; If they can not, their theology is on the wind. "Son of God" is an expression they rely on and cite; But does this interpretation mean God in the Bible? Its use in the Bible negates the answer.

 Differences, religions and denominations › Christianity
Jesus Christ
The Son of God is not God

 

Introduction: The issue of the divinity of Jesus (عليه السلام) is one of the most challenging issues that every healthy nature and every healthy and pure intellect rejects in the first encounter; But the theology of evangelical Christianity is strongly dependent on it and its pillar. This is a lesson! If it collapses, it will undoubtedly deviate from Christianity and nothing will be left; That is why the theological atmosphere of Christianity is desperately trying to make it reasonable and acceptable! 

One of the most serious and rightly related questions about this Christian doctrine (the deity of Jesus Christ) is that if this is true, then it must be explicitly addressed in the Bible - as the main source for all Christian denominations. Be; Like monotheism, which is the main teaching of Islam, and in the Holy Qur'an, it has been explicitly and repeatedly, as well as clearly and distinctly, in several verses.

In answer to this important question, Christian scholars have tried hard to show, by quoting interpretations and words from the Bible, that the deity refers to the deity of Jesus Christ. Stuart Olivier, author of The Secret of the Trinity, is one of them. In his book, he devotes a chapter entitled "The Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God" to this matter; For example, in one case to argue for the divinity of Jesus Christ, he cites and quotes the words of one of the apostles of Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) who quotes from the Gospel of John (Gospel of the New Testament): Accepted! The glorious truth of Christ's true identity was sparked in their minds a year or two ago and was somewhat revealed to them. Peter had already said to Jesus on behalf of all the disciples, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16) ... "[1].

In these sentences, Mr. Olivier is arguing in an intra-religious way and testifying that the divinity of Jesus can be understood from the heart of the Bible. To substantiate his claim (biblical testimony to the divinity of Jesus Christ), he cites the words of Peter, one of the apostles of Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) mentioned by John. Olivier says: See Peter is introducing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and this introduction is also in the presence of Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and in the Bible. God's son also means God and everything is solved !!!

If we look at the divine books of the scholars and the words of the Christian missionaries, we will easily and explicitly discover that this interpretation of "Son of God" is one of the most key ?! It is their pretexts to prove the deity of Jesus Christ from the heart of the Bible; But I think this kind of reasoning is a fallacy. "Misinterpretation". This fallacy occurs when a person does not make any changes or interference in the words of the text or speech and all the material is retold in accordance with the facts and only in their justification and interpretation a fallacy is made and something contrary to the main purpose is attributed to them [ 2].

As you can see, Mr. Olivier quotes Peter "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" in the Gospel of John; But what is misleading - if I am not mistaken - is how does the meaning of God come from this interpretation? Isn't this the interpretation of Olivier himself, the author of The Secret of the Trinity, and on the basis of his presuppositions that he has constructed such a meaning? To cite this misinterpretation, we cite the Bible itself to show that the term "Son of God" does not mean God at all.

Let's take a look at Matthew's gospel. There is a very popular title in this gospel: "Sermon on the Mount." This sermon is one of the most important sermons and also the most well-known among the properties and masses of Christianity. In this sermon, the Imam is placed on top of a mountain and begins to "teach" among the disciples and "a large group". In addition to this sermon, the Imam said: "... Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God ..." [3]. This verse, which is found in one of the most authoritative Christian gospels and in the most famous sermons, clearly states that Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) himself is not the one who can be the "sons of God". Now, if the son of God means God, will the mistaken Christians accept that we have gods ?! According to the interpretation of Mr. Olivier and his like-minded people, does Jesus Christ intend to call the gods next to the one God ?!

The result is that the fundamental problem will certainly not change without solving the divinity of Jesus Christ by invoking the interpretation of the "Son of God" in the Bible, assuming its validity; Because this interpretation has been interpreted in the Bible itself in a way that has closed the way to any distortion and misinterpretation.

[1] - Olivier, Stuart, The Secret of the Trinity (PDF version), p.35.

[2] - Khandan, Seyed Ali Asghar, Tehran; Qom, side; Taha Cultural Institute, 2000, p. 192.

[3] - Matthew 9: 5.

Christianity

https://btid.org/fa/news/156431

https://btid-org.translate.goog/fa/news/156431?_x_tr_sl=fa&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fa&_x_tr_pto=wapp

(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:55

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Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will. (253)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/2:253

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; (156) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/4:156

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

https://tanzil.net/#4:171

 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? (116)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/5:116

[Leslie P]

On 5/1/2022 at 8:00 PM, Nad_M said:

The church...<snip>... its Jewish heritage.

Thanks you for your reply. As always, some important points have been made.

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The church was so well under control that within the same generation of the disciples, this Jewish sect of the Nazarenes, whose distinction from mainstream judaism was only in the belief that Jesus was the messiah, turned upon its heels, abandoned Jewish law, adopted concepts unheard of anywhere in Judaism? Once more, these changes didnt occur "at a later stage" but very early on, as explained in a previous post.

This is correct, and I wish more people understood this.

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There is a reason why "the writers" including Paul do not quote the Hebrew Bible in this NT where Judaism is "soaking the pages". They quote from the Greek Septuagint which was hated by the rabbis as it represented the Hellenization of many Jews of the time.

I would think they used the Septuagint because Greek was one of the 'universal' languages of the Eastern Mediterranean at that time (one thinks of the Decapolis, for example). In any case, whatever the language used, would you not agree that the NT is saturated with OT quotes?

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The "Jewish Early Church" very early on became irrelevant due to Paul's efforts at supplanting it, dismissing Jewish law as obsolete, reinterpreting core semitic concepts of God so as to appeal to his pagan audience...<snip>...This led him to eventually turn to the gentiles among whom he found a much more favorable audience.

Paul puts an awful lot of effort into showing how Jesus fulfilled the Jewish OT promises, in a very unexpected way, but a message that was for everybody (“through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed”). For him, Jesus as the fulfilment of God's promises to humanity was at the very centre of his beliefs.

Israel was very conscious that the much promised Kingdom of God hadn't arrived. Jesus' sacrifice was necessary for it to happen.

The first Christians were Jewish, and all the evidence we have says they were constantly looking at the OT. Any Jewish resistance would have been due to the strong Jewish ideas about how the Kingdom of God/Messiah involved military victory rather than being killed on a cross.

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That is how Christianity was shaped, using its target audience's sensitivities all the while toning down to the maximum its Jewish heritage.

I need to ask again what your evidence is that the changes weren't completely supported by the disciples? In my post on May 1^st I provide a small part of the evidence that they were.

It seems to me that those who knew Jesus best, who had been directly taught by him, who had been entrusted with his message, were the ones who established early Christianity.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Hi

Moses made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Yusha‘ ibn Nun and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Jesus the son of Mary made a covenant with his people concerning his executor Simon ibn Hamun al-Safa and was raised to heaven, but his people did not fulfill it.

The Commander of the Faithful said, ‘He is Simon, the successor of Jesus (‘a). Allah sent him to me to give me solace for this confrontation with His enemies.’ They said, ‘May our parents be your ransom! By Allah! We will help you the way we helped the Apostle of Allah (S), and none from the Muhajirin nor Ansar shall desert you, except the unfortunate one.’ Then the Commander of the Faithful said some kind words to them.”4

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4. It is reported that Qays, the servant of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (‘a) said, “Once when ‘Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, was near the mountain at Siffin, the time for the evening prayers came. So, he went farther away and called for the prayers. When he finished the call to prayer, a man appeared from near the mountain with grey hair and beard, and a bright white face.

He said, ‘Peace be with you, O Commander of the Faithful, and mercy and blessings from Allah! Welcome to the successor of the last of the prophets, leader of the ones with bright, brilliant faces, magnanimous and protected, excellent and one who has the reward of the truthful, master of all the successors!’

So, the Commander of the Faithful said, ‘And peace be with you. How are you?’

He replied, ‘I am well, waiting for the holy spirit. I do not know of any name that is greater in the estimation of Allah, His Name is Mighty and Magnificent, at the time of an ordeal than yours, nor of any who has earned more rewards than you, nor of anyone who has an elevated place higher than yours. Put up with all that your face, O my brother, until you meet the beloved.

Verily, I have witnessed whatever happened to our companions in the past at the hands of the children of Israel. They cut them apart with the saw and carried them over the bier.’ And then pointing towards the people of Syria, he said, ‘And if these poor, ugly faces knew what chastisement and exemplary punishment awaited them for fighting against you, they would withdraw.; And then pointing to the people of Iraq, he said, ‘And if these bright faces knew that award awaited them for having obeyed you, they would love to be cut by scissors. And peace and His mercy and blessings be with you.’

Then he disappeared. At that time, Ammar ibn Yasir, ‘Abdul Haytham ibn al-Tihan, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Samit, Khuzayma ibn Thabit and Hashim al-Marqal, among a group of his followers, having heard what the man had said, stood up and said, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Who was that man?’ The Commander of the Faithful said, ‘He is Simon, the successor of Jesus (‘a). Allah sent him to me to give me solace for this confrontation with His enemies.’ They said, ‘May our parents be your ransom! By Allah! We will help you the way we helped the Apostle of Allah (S), and none from the Muhajirin nor Ansar shall desert you, except the unfortunate one.’ Then the Commander of the Faithful said some kind words to them.”4

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-through-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/successor-jesus

 

[Dawid Das]

and now some christians will probably think that i can get comfort through there words like its enough. well guess what so do the athiests and muslims comfort me when i tell them am ill. words aren't enough. you are suppose to show more hospitality to a brother in your faith

[Eddie Mecca]

On 5/1/2022 at 12:01 PM, Leslie P said:

You seem to paint this picture of disciples unable to control their church

When one reads the history of nascent Christianity it becomes blatantly clear that James the Just (peace be upon him) and Paul had two distinct visions of the church and of the religion—James' flavor of Christianity was uncompromisingly Semitic and authentic—Paul's conversion campaign centered around converts among Hellenized Jews and southern Europeans and it appealed to their preconceived paganistic/polytheistic notions of a savior god (classic quality approach versus quantity approach).  

Edited May 10, 2022 by Eddie Mecca