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Today's men are not as capable

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Recently I've been seeing discussions regarding the issue of people, specifically women, being unable to find a spouse even past their 30s. And one of the points that I've seen some people make is that women should be more open to the idea of being 2nd wives. This thread is not addressing the issue of single women, but rather the issue of having more than one wife.

In no way am I arguing against the validity of having multiple wives, it is clear in our fiqh that this is allowed.

But how many men do each of us personally know that have been able to maintain two or more happy marriages? Happy meaning that the man, his 2+ wives, and their children are all happy and not being treated unjustly? If any of you are aware of such a case in the 21st century please do post it down below, but I have yet to see such a thing.

Personally, I do not believe that today's men are physically, spiritually, and psychologically able to maintain two happy families without any injustice being done. Men in the past were able to, but 99.9% of today's men should put the idea of multiple wives out of their head because most can not handle it. This results in secret marriages, which may be legally allowed in Islam, but on an ethical and personal level most people consider it as cheating.

How many of us can say we know a man who has publicly held 2 or more wives, with all of them being happy in their situation?

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I do agree with you, men these days can't maintain two happy families without any injustice being done. I think the cost of living has gone up so it would be very hard to maintain to two families happy.

Some men, get the wrong the idea about having multiple wives, they think it's cool or put wrong ideas in their heads. Why do some men, like to have to another wife? if the intent to help a woman he knows, he can asks her wife to do the provide the help rather then him getting involved directly. 

Having a second wife without the approval or permission of the first wife, its injustice because you won't able to keep the first wife happy. 

This results in secret marriages, which may be legally allowed in Islam - I don' think secrets marriages is allowed but someone correct me if I am wrong

I believe the purpose of multiple wives is during wars, poverty, women with no one to look after her or as you said those women that can't find spouse.

Or Perhaps I am wrong in the everything I said.

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Well, I don't know if its just the men who are incapable. Perhaps the women are too. Perhaps our entire social system, family structures, standards of living, educational systems do not allow people to be structured to handle polygamous marriages.

I do not know of any polygamous situations that did not cause/lead to major heartbreak/pain/betrayal and more often than not- divorce or breakdown of the family, but I DO know of some polygamous situations that were handled with decorum and had a lower level of damage on the relationships. In one, the man in question had notified the first wife early in their marriage that at some point he would marry a second wife, and did it after having 7 daughters with the first wife. For some reason, he also found it wise to ask the second wife to be completely obedient and subservient to the first wife, so after a few rough months, they settled into relatively peaceful, happy families. Also important to note, he did not "cheat" on the wife, but notified her the time he had said he would marry had come, and asked a female relative to identify a decent woman from among their wider circle and proposed in the formal ways. So their polygamy never went through the secret dates, secret phone calls & chats, secret times away from home or other haram activities that most polygamous marriages start with.

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Morals, values and religion in general have gone down the drain. An overwhelming majority of Muslims today have nothing to do with their religion except for some of the ritual bits. This is reflected in the way boys and girls are being brought up. 

Urdu speakers will be familiar with a poem of Iqbal's called 'Jawab-e-Shikwa' (the plaint's response), where in an imaginary dialogue between God and the Muslims, God addresses them in a line that goes like this, "In manners you are pagans, in religion you are Christians; your morals are such as would embarass the Jews".

You say today's Muslim men are not as capable as their ancestors. I wonder what it is about them that even makes them 'men' any longer. 

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For marriage to work we need to give ourselves 100% to our spouse.  I don't think it is about whether men are still men or women still women.  It is God's creation plan that for a family and marriage to work, one man and one women should commit themselves to a loving, selfgiving, lifelong, exclusive, faithful relationship.  However "fairly" a man treats a second wife I can not see the family dynamics working.  Even when I read the Hadith I see stories of tensions in the household of the Prophet of Islam. Shouldn't that be a warning to Muslim people?  When we read the stories of the Prophets in the Torah there were tensions between their multiple wives.

6 hours ago, Meedy said:

I believe the purpose of multiple wives is during wars, poverty, women with no one to look after her

I can understand this, but if there is a caring society these single women should not be excluded but should be cared for in society without any need for them being "married".

What did Jesus the Messiah say?  Matthew chapter 19

“Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’” And he said, “‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”

I would see a second 'wife' as splitting apart what God had joined together.

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On 4/12/2022 at 3:33 AM, Guest Guest said:

Recently I've been seeing discussions regarding the issue of people, specifically women, being unable to find a spouse even past their 30s. And one of the points that I've seen some people make is that women should be more open to the idea of being 2nd wives. This thread is not addressing the issue of single women, but rather the issue of having more than one wife.

In no way am I arguing against the validity of having multiple wives, it is clear in our fiqh that this is allowed.

But how many men do each of us personally know that have been able to maintain two or more happy marriages? Happy meaning that the man, his 2+ wives, and their children are all happy and not being treated unjustly? If any of you are aware of such a case in the 21st century please do post it down below, but I have yet to see such a thing.

Personally, I do not believe that today's men are physically, spiritually, and psychologically able to maintain two happy families without any injustice being done. Men in the past were able to, but 99.9% of today's men should put the idea of multiple wives out of their head because most can not handle it. This results in secret marriages, which may be legally allowed in Islam, but on an ethical and personal level most people consider it as cheating.

How many of us can say we know a man who has publicly held 2 or more wives, with all of them being happy in their situation?

I think there is too much blame on men but women are not being called into account for their role in the Muslim marriage crisis. Women have become extremely picky as they have become wealthier and educated (women in their 20s surpass men in their 20s in income), and now give even more value to superficial things such as a man's looks (often looking for men much more attractive than themselves). This mirrors what has happened in the west among non-muslims where many men are having trouble finding a long term relationship, while a small number of highly attractive and desirable men dominate the dating pool. There are enough studies about this.

The vast majority of men are NOT looking for polygamy. They are lucky to even find one woman. How many polygamous marriages does anyone personally know?

This is an analysis from Muzmatch and the data scientist even admits that, contrary to popular belief that men are picky, it is actually the women: 

 

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1 hour ago, Uni Student said:

I believe islamically the definition would be that he has an equal financial, emotional, and time investment but i may be wrong

For the sake of argument let's say wife x cleans, takes care of the kids, shows care, treats you well whilst wife y does not. Would you treat them equally or justly? I think the misunderstanding is that equally = justly, which it isn't.

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1 hour ago, root said:

For the sake of argument let's say wife x cleans, takes care of the kids, shows care, treats you well whilst wife y does not. Would you treat them equally or justly? I think the misunderstanding is that equally = justly, which it isn't.

I'm not too sure, can someone clarify what are the duties/responsibilities of a man with multiple families, from a fiqh perspective?

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9 hours ago, root said:

For the sake of argument let's say wife x cleans, takes care of the kids, shows care, treats you well whilst wife y does not. Would you treat them equally or justly? I think the misunderstanding is that equally = justly, which it isn't.

Hey there sorry to be a bit simplistic and possibly argumentitive, but you only have this problemn because you are not living according to God's creation example of one man and one wife.

Okay monogomous marrages are not without problems, but you don't have to work out how to split your time, money, emotions etc "justly"

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4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

not living according to God's creation example of one man and one wife.

The Bible never prohibits nor even discourages unlimited polygamy. Christians generally bring monogamous is based on tradition, not doctrine.  

 

On 4/12/2022 at 3:20 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I would see a second 'wife' as splitting apart what God had joined together.

Why? If all parties are informed and consenting adults,  how is there harm? 

I would have no problem with my husband taking a second wife, so long as all my rights are maintained,  and all the second wife's rights are maintained.  To be honest, I wouldn't even care if he chose her because she is younger/prettier/more attentive,  though those are terrible selection criteria for long term.  

Why tell people how to live their lives,  if they're not hurting anyone?

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12 hours ago, Uni Student said:

I'm not too sure, can someone clarify what are the duties/responsibilities of a man with multiple families, from a fiqh perspective?

I don't have time to look it up,  but at minimum he must spend 1 of 4 days/ nights at the home of each wife, and he must provide financially for the needs of each wife and child, but not necessarily their wants.  If I'm not mistaken,  besides avoiding injustice,  there are no further rules.  

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On 4/12/2022 at 8:33 AM, Guest Guest said:

Personally, I do not believe that today's men are physically, spiritually, and psychologically

It isn't just men. It's men and women. The entire human race is descending into chaos. 

Just take a look around there is a small number of men and women left who are able to physically, spiritually, and psychologically provide for a spouse. 

The only possible thing I will mention is the cost of living which isn't the fault of the average man anyway so that is irrelevant. 

And to turn your argument on it's head. Men are allowed to handle four wives if they can handle it. Women are only allowed one husband. According to your viewpoint the number of wives a man can have has decreased as they are no longer physically, spiritually, and psychologically capable.  Well what about women? They could only have one husband to begin with, where does that leave them now?

Women aren't immune to evil, they too have become less physically, spiritually, and psychologically capable. Are women living on a different earth? Have they not been exposed to the evil and corruption of this world alongside men? Of course not. 

Most men are barely men and most women are barely women.

But all hope is not lost, there are still good people out in the world and there always will be, you just have to find them. 

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Posted (edited)

I think just like some people want to keep all wealth to themselves, they are also keeping relationships to themselves. In 2014, I was married and doing good in my career. I was learning so many things at work, doing all house work by myself and also volunteering. Today I am not able to do a single chore at home, at work I am also considered useless and I am not doing any volunteering. Have I become disabled or crippled in 7 years? No, it's just I have been excluded and marginalized both at home and at work. There are people who want to pretend they are the only ones useful or can do anything while rest of the people are just waste of resources. I am constantly told I am only good for one thing and that's why I should just get married to some creepy guy because I am unable to learn any skills and do anything to support myself. I hate all the proposals available to me and yes, that means I am unable to be a good wife to even one man. My sister, on the other hand, can be a good wife to not one, but 10 men and she is probably secretly playing that role for 10 men. I believe the same thing is happening with men also.   Some men are capable of relationships with 10 women and some are not able to keep even one woman, but it's not their fault. They have been marginalized and excluded from the society. Capitalism is not just hoarding money, it's also hoarding relationships. I just don't understand these people. They have to do a lot more work and they are complaining about having to do all the work, but they don't let others do any work.  I can understand why people would do this at home but at work? You are doing job of 2 or 3 people, you are not getting more pay, you are only benefitting your employer and you are doing all this for what? Just for an ego boost and to make your "enemies" look bad? You are SO SO SO STUPID!!!! In past, if people were too smart for their job, they would go find a better paying job or try to get promoted, now they get into these weird relationships with their employers, become "loyal" to them and play kings and queens, while staying at their pathetic jobs and making life miserable for their co-workers. And employers are very happy giving these people privileges as long as they don't ask for more money and are only happy with the daily ego boost. 

Edited by rkazmi33
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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2022 at 3:33 AM, Guest Guest said:

Recently I've been seeing discussions regarding the issue of people, specifically women, being unable to find a spouse even past their 30s. And one of the points that I've seen some people make is that women should be more open to the idea of being 2nd wives. This thread is not addressing the issue of single women, but rather the issue of having more than one wife.

In no way am I arguing against the validity of having multiple wives, it is clear in our fiqh that this is allowed.

But how many men do each of us personally know that have been able to maintain two or more happy marriages? Happy meaning that the man, his 2+ wives, and their children are all happy and not being treated unjustly? If any of you are aware of such a case in the 21st century please do post it down below, but I have yet to see such a thing.

Personally, I do not believe that today's men are physically, spiritually, and psychologically able to maintain two happy families without any injustice being done. Men in the past were able to, but 99.9% of today's men should put the idea of multiple wives out of their head because most can not handle it. This results in secret marriages, which may be legally allowed in Islam, but on an ethical and personal level most people consider it as cheating.

How many of us can say we know a man who has publicly held 2 or more wives, with all of them being happy in their situation?

I'm assuming your talking about 2nd wife in a zawaj tul nikah, permenant marriage contract. 

I don't think it's that todays men are less capable, I think its that the living standards have been raised to such a point, that it's difficult to support one family for a man, much less two or more unless the guy is very wealthy (like in the top 3 to 4 %). During the times of the Prophet and Imams((عليه السلام)), the living standards were a house, which you could build yourself or build with the help of a few people, food, and a few pieces of cloths. So for that, I think the majority of men who were healthy and had some sort of job / occupation / business could afford to marry at least 2. Today, with all the expenses, it's totally different. The city where I grew up in (L.A. Metro area), my mom and dad bought their house when I was a kid for $25,000. That same house today (I just saw it listed a few months ago) is selling for more than $600,000. Its just a  regular house. The wages for the average worker haven't kept pace with the rising cost of living. That is the main problem with having multiple wives and families. 

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Just now, Qa'im said:

if more women would prioritize marriage during the best years of their fertility and youth.

Nah,  man. First, quality over quantity.  Second, half of my four children were born without difficulty after I was 30, one after 40. 

Way too often women are forced to act as both mother and father to their children. Much better for young ladies to prioritize survival. Not ideal, but it's a fact of modern society. 

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10 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Most of you will be too busy and too tired and too sick in your 40s to maintain a 9-5 job, young kids, and a husband. I’ve rarely seen someone do all 3 affectively at the same time — 2/3 maybe, but you will either slack at work, neglect your kids, or get totally out of shape. 

How are the men doing with respect to these? And why are women always held to a higher standard? 

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10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hey there sorry to be a bit simplistic and possibly argumentitive, but you only have this problemn because you are not living according to God's creation example of one man and one wife.

Okay monogomous marrages are not without problems, but you don't have to work out how to split your time, money, emotions etc "justly"

If you look at the statistics of how many men are in jail, get killed in wars and are actually capable of providing for a family there is a huge overpopulation of female vs men. Islam solves this problem by allowing men to have more wives to take care of instead of casting the problem aside like christianity does.

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37 minutes ago, root said:

If you look at the statistics of how many men are in jail, get killed in wars and are actually capable of providing for a family there is a huge overpopulation of female vs men. Islam solves this problem by allowing men to have more wives to take care of instead of casting the problem aside like christianity does.

The answer is not in having lots of wives but in setting up a system in society or in the community where the marginalised and destitute are cared for and given honour and support.

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29 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The answer is not in having lots of wives but in setting up a system in society or in the community where the marginalised and destitute are cared for and given honour and support.

We live in the real world, not a fantasy world. There will be wars, and there will be lots of criminals in jail, number of gays will increase and so it will be. Only when a saviour comes will we see things be optimal, until then we will need a solution.

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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The answer is not in having lots of wives but in setting up a system in society or in the community where the marginalised and destitute are cared for and given honour and support.

Why not both? We shouldn't have any marginalized or destitute people, AND we shouldn't excessively regulate the marriages of consenting adults.  

If my husband should die before me,  I wouldn't be destitute, God willing, but I might want to marry again, and nothing should be wrong with that. The purpose of marriage is to form solid partnerships as the building blocks of society,  not as charity.  If some dude wanted to marry me as charity, I'd be offended and refuse.  I'd rather be destitute than legally and spiritually attached to someone who pitied me. 

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14 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hey there sorry to be a bit simplistic and possibly argumentitive, but you only have this problemn because you are not living according to God's creation example of one man and one wife.

Have you forgotten your Bible mentions men had several wives and concubines? 

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9 hours ago, root said:

All woman, should be taught at an early age that it is fully within their right to require that the man not getting more than 1 wife before marriage and implementing it within the marriage contract. This goes for Mutah as well. 

Rest of your post is fine except for this. Can people please stop spreading this lie. It is not a womans right to require or put in the contract that her husband remain monogamous. Thats haram. That is denying him HIS right. Islamically she can put in her contract that she can get a divorce if he gets another wife (which is different) but she CANNOT take away his right of getting another wife. God gave him that right, who is she to deny him that? Thats like saying a man can put in his contract that he doesn't have to financially provide for his children. 

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6 hours ago, root said:

Fortunately we don't have you as an authority in Islam, but rather Ulama. The only thing you can not put in a marriage contract is hindereance of wajibat or enforcing that which is haram. Getting a second wife is not wajib, nor is it Haram to not get one, so it's perfectly fine to put it in the contract. Financially providing for your kids is wajib, so you can't do that.

 

It's much better to have a dialogue and learn from eachother than throwing a hissyfit.

Would it be okay if a man put in his contract that his wife must contribute her earnings to the bills? After all, the cost of living is high these days and a man can't do it all himself... Keeping her earnings to herself is her God given right but a contract can override that I guess! 

By the way I have tried to look up a ruling about this and all I can find in favor of what you said is something about the wife giving up her right to her mahr if she stipulates monogamy (Sistani). All other things I read agree with what I posted (Khamenei; book on al-Islam; hadiths). So if you have a clear fatwa please post so we can all get educated. 

Also a note to others, just because someone's name is in red, doesn't mean they are necessarily right about something. We all need to double check things. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/14/2022 at 10:18 PM, Hameedeh said:

Have you forgotten your Bible mentions men had several wives and concubines? 

 

On 4/14/2022 at 10:27 PM, notme said:

Several is an understatement! Hundreds! 

I agree!  But each time multiple wives and concubines are mentioned it is never a happy situation.  It leads to arguments, rejection and pain.  Many wives and concubines which the kings had more often than not leads to them and the nation turning away from the service and true worship of the one God.

God has included these stories in his scriptures to show the dangers and inadiquacy of multiple wives.  So emphasising the ideal of a lifelong mognonomus relationship between one man and one woman.

In my reading of the law of Moses in the Torah there is no rules or instructions about marrying a second wife.  This is not God's plan or intention for happy successful families and for a secure society.

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Many wives and concubines which the kings had more often than not leads to them and the nation turning away from the service and true worship of the one God.

God has included these stories in his scriptures to show the dangers and inadiquacy of multiple wives. 

700 is hardly comparable to 4. Furthermore,  you are speculating. On what basis do you presume to know the "mind" of God? 

Would you mind addressing my post that started with "why not both"? Marriage isn't social services, it's partnerships.  

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16 hours ago, Guest Bless said:

Would it be okay if a man put in his contract that his wife must contribute her earnings to the bills? After all, the cost of living is high these days and a man can't do it all himself... Keeping her earnings to herself is her God given right but a contract can override that I guess! 

By the way I have tried to look up a ruling about this and all I can find in favor of what you said is something about the wife giving up her right to her mahr if she stipulates monogamy (Sistani). All other things I read agree with what I posted (Khamenei; book on al-Islam; hadiths). So if you have a clear fatwa please post so we can all get educated. 

Also a note to others, just because someone's name is in red, doesn't mean they are necessarily right about something. We all need to double check things. 

You are absolutely right. I can be wrong about a lot of things with my limited knowledge. Everyone should always doublecheck everything with their marja and the Ulama that are experts within the subject. 

You are also absolutely right that it was kind of hard to find a clear cut ruling on this. Nontheless, whatever the ruling is, the point was that parents have a responsibility to teach their kids and make them understand early in order for them to have the best possible tools to make the right choices.

Have a blessed Ramadan

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On 4/15/2022 at 2:48 AM, Hameedeh said:

Have you forgotten your Bible mentions men had several wives and concubines? 

To add to this, were the Patriarchs, the Judges and the Minor and the Major Prophets (asws) all living in conflict with God's laws for thousands of years until Occidental Christianity crystallized itself into Churches and it was suddenly discovered that God wants monogamous marriages? 

Agreed with brother @root as well! 

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On 4/14/2022 at 9:18 PM, notme said:

Why not both? We shouldn't have any marginalized or destitute people, AND we shouldn't excessively regulate the marriages of consenting adults.  

If my husband should die before me,  I wouldn't be destitute, God willing, but I might want to marry again, and nothing should be wrong with that.

Sorry I didn't address your question.

The question is not about excessivly regulating the marriages of concenting adults, it is more about what is God's best and ideal for indiviuals, familes, children and society.

On 4/16/2022 at 12:25 PM, notme said:

Marriage isn't social services, it's partnerships.  

Yes you are right it is a partnership between one man and one woman - it becomes complicated and messy when there are more people involved

On 4/16/2022 at 8:14 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

To add to this, were the Patriarchs, the Judges and the Minor and the Major Prophets (asws) all living in conflict with God's laws for thousands of years

When Jesus the Messiah was asked about divorce - the account is faithfully recorded in Matthew 19 - he said that divorce wasn't God's desire for people.  The people then responded

‘Why then,’ they asked, ‘did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?’ Jesus replied, ‘Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

God permits somethings but doesn't endorce them.  This is so with polygamy.  All the examples in the Hebrew scriptures show problems in families with more than one wife.  There are no laws prohibiting more than one wife but also no laws providing for it, only warnings of the consiquenses.

On 4/16/2022 at 8:14 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

for thousands of years until Occidental Christianity crystallized itself into Churches and it was suddenly discovered that God wants monogamous marriages?

The teaching of the early church in the Trustworthy Injil shows that monogamous marriages were seen as the prefered way of life.  Paul, when giving instructions to the churches, says that a leader should be a "One-woman man" (1Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6).  Indicating that there was pologamy but it wasn't seen as "good practice" but emphasising faithfulness was important.

About society caring for the widow and orphan this is a theme in the Hebrew Scriptures where the people are called to reflect God's character

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. 18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

There is no indication that the care of widows or orphans involves marrying them.  Rather there was specific rules to ensure that widows had enough and were cared for.

The New Testament has the same idea see James 1 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

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