Shia Reverts and Isolation

[Abu Hadi]

Bismillah Ar Rahman, Ar Rahim

 

This is in response to some recent videos I have watched on Youtube that were very inspirational and made me think. The first is by Sayyid Mustafa Qazwini. It was given a few years ago, I think 7 years ago but is still very relevant. Here is the speech. 

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) continue to bless Dr. Mustafa Qazwini and his family. I really get inspired by his speeches and he is doing a great service to the Muslim community in America and in my home state of California. Even though I have lived in Michigan for 20 years, I will always consider California, and particularly the L.A. metro area to be my home. Being a revert myself, and someone who was born and raised in California, I would like to respond to a few of his points. 

First, in general he is correct that most reverts to Islam, especially Shia reverts do not attend masjid or go to Islamic centers on a regular basis. They are in general isolated from the wider community, which is a huge problem that needs to be addressed and if it isn't addressed will undermine the growth of Islam in the US. Some of these issues have to do with the reverts themselves, and some have to do with the muslim community. 

The point that I agree with him about 100% is the fact that the main problem about Islam not being appealing to Americans in general is that America is a very materialistic society. Most Americans feel that the source of their happiness or misery is in material things. This could be greater wealth, a better house, a better job, drugs / alcohol, consumer goods, social status, etc. The focus of the society is on attaining happiness thru gaining that material thing that makes you feel 'good' or 'happy'. This is promoted constantly thru the media and most people buy into it and spend the vast majority of their time trying to attain that 'thing', material thing that will make them happy and satisfied. Companies and Corporations benefit tremendously from this aggressive pursuit of that 'thing' by selling that 'thing' to the people or pretending like they are selling it. The government also benefits thru collecting taxes on the labor that Americans do in this pursuit. So this is now the consensus in America, that I will pursue that 'thing' and you will pursue that 'thing' for you and this will lead to happiness and satisfaction. 

Religion has been pushed to play a very minor role in society. So most Americans think of religion as something 'optional' you do if you have the time, or if it makes you feel 'good'. If you don't have the time, or it doesn't make you feel 'good' then it is perfectly fine to discard it, since it doesn't make much difference anyway. So a religion like Islam, which makes demands on a person, daily demands like prayer and fasting during the month of Ramadan, refraining from alcohol, refraining from pre marital relations, and talks about punishment from God if someone doesn't do these things is something that most Americans find 'extreme', 'demanding', and something they don't have the time or energy for. In addition, there are efforts made by the media to portray Islam as extreme and 'backward' and something that would be a negative if it were adopted widely in society. 

So considering all that, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the vast majority of Americans are not interested in becoming Muslim, Shia, or even hearing about Islam. The surprising part to me is that we, as Muslims and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) have completely failed in making the counter argument and doing advocacy for Islam and teaching of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) amoung the wider, non Muslim population. There are a few exceptions to this, and these exceptions are some of the Sunni brothers and sisters who are doing this. I haven't seen a Shia group in the US actively doing this. This is the sad part. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that the vast majority of reverts to Islam are Sunni. That is because they are the ones doing the dawa to the non muslims and we (followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) are not). That is the only reason. 

The ones who revert into Shia Islam are 'one off' cases like myself, and another like this dear sister, whose video I will post below. Please listen to her story, it will give you lots of inspiration. 

 

I disagree with the Sayyid's point about 'Revert Centers'. I actually don't think there should be centers specifically for Reverts. If we do that, we are just making another 'Ethnic Social Club' for Americans just like some masjids are actually just 'Ethnic Social Clubs' for Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis, etc. The role of the masjid in Islam is much greater and more profound than this. I think we need to take steps to integrate Reverts into our existing Masjids by making them feel safe, welcome, and feel like their specific needs and issues are being addressed and they are getting the help they need. We don't need more buildings, we need to change our behavior. I will explain with a few points below. 

I will address a few points about what I think we could do to improve our programs and make them more appealing to reverts

1. Language. I actually think this is the most important one. Whenever we have an alim who starts a speech or a program, they begin with a few minutes of Dua, Quran, and Salawat. This is all in Arabic and it lasts for sometimes up to 10 minutes. Me being someone who has some familiarity with Arabic and Dua and Quran, I understand what he is saying, but most reverts, especially new reverts, don't. They walk in, assume this is an Arabic program, and then leave. They are not going to sit there thru an entire program in a language which they don't understand (based on their assumption that it is an Arabic program). This further increases their isolation. I understand the importance of doing these dua and Salawat, and Ziyarat before the program, but I think they could be shortened to less than a minute, beginning with the Balsama (Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim), then a short Salawat or a short dua or ayat from the Quran. This will fulfill the obligation and set the tone, and will also make the programs more accessible to Reverts.

2. Personal Interaction / Mentoring. More than half of reverts do not feel welcome when they walk into the masjid or center. They are either looked at with suspicion, ignored, or treated like a museum exhibit for people to stare and point at. None of these types of interactions make them feel welcome and make them want to run out of the building at the earliest opportunity. I think it would be very simple for a masjid to have a mentoring program for new reverts. When they walk into the masjid, there could be a sign or something saying 'New Revert To Islam. Are you interested in participating in our mentoring program?'. Maybe they could fill out a survey or it would have contact information for a Revert Liaison for the Masjid that is interested in working with new reverts (gender appropriate, men for men, women for women) and has the background / language skills to understand their particular issues. I know many not so new reverts like myself that would be interested in volunteering to be a mentor for such programs. 

There are other things that the regular brothers and sister who attend could do to make reverts feel more comfortable, like maybe not staring at them, or not automatically assuming that they are Police / FBI / CIA. They should be treated like any other member of the community and should be assumed to be what they appear to be (a revert to Islam with no pre set agenda) unless there is very strong evidence pointing in the other direction. There are other things which I could post in another thread. 

3. Program timing and frequency. Don't start programs late in the Evenings on weekdays. Most Americans don't stay up late on weekdays. For example Ramadan programs in this area begin after Iftar, at 9:30 or 10:30 at night. Most Americans work from 9 to 5 and they need time before work to get to work, get the kids ready, etc, which means most wake up around 6:30 or 7. If they are at the Masjid till midnight or later and then have to get home, they will be sleep deprived and this will affect their work. Starting programs at 6:30 or 7 would be better, even during Ramadan. Make the programs shorter, more frequent, and more focused on specific issues that affect the lives of reverts. Most Americans, coming from the church background, are used to going to religious programs at least once a week, and the programs lasting 45 minutes to an hour at most.  

4. Support services that are specifically aimed at new reverts. They should know that if they walk into the masjid, it will be a safe place for them, and their specific needs will be addressed, if the masjid / center has the resources to address them. So if they need help in any sort of way, that there is someone there who will listen to them and attempt to fulfill their needs and if they can't, at least they will try to point them in the direction on someone who can. This applies generally to Muslims, and not only to reverts. A masjid should be a place where people go for solutions to their problems, not just spiritual problems, but any problems they may be having in their life. It should not only be a place where people go to do Salat, Majalis, then leave. 

5. Reverts as Decision Makers at Masjids / Centers. Most masjids don't have any reverts in decision making roles. There needs to be revert representation on things like Boards of Directors, Executive Committees, etc if the person is qualified for the role. 

There are other points which I could post, but I think this is enough for now. 

[notme]

And absolutely under no circumstances should you tell the parent of a disabled child that their child's disability must be because of the sins they committed as a non-Muslim! I assure you,  they will feel like neither they nor their child is welcome.  

[Diaz]

43 minutes ago, notme said:

disabled child that their child's disability must be because of the sins they committed

I know some people who say these kind of things to other people who are against their political party. I don’t know what to say tbh.

[Abu Hadi]

2 hours ago, notme said:

And absolutely under no circumstances should you tell the parent of a disabled child that their child's disability must be because of the sins they committed as a non-Muslim! I assure you,  they will feel like neither they nor their child is welcome.  

 

Having a child with a disability most likely means that your more resilient, smarter, more resourceful, more patient, and more compassionate than most. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never tests us with anything greater than we can bear, and most parents couldn't bear that test unless they had those qualities. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[notme]

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never tests us with anything greater than we can bear

I have two children diagnosed with autism. I haven't been to an Islamic gathering since my two older children were small.  My younger two have never seen an Islamic center.  I would take my daughter if i were inclined to go,  but I'm afraid my non-verbal seven year old would be bullied by children and adults, like my oldest was 17 years ago. 

I'm disinclined to go.  

 

I have observed that people become able to bear what they must bear.  No parent is going to just not do what they need to do for their child! We are all capable.  

[AbdusSibtayn]

Agreed with everything that brother @Abu Hadi has said above. 

As a revert myself, each and every point hits straight home. I am too overwhelmed to be able to add anything of value to the discussion. From concepts and experiences, everything has already been discussed. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant us reverts the patience of Bilal (رضي الله عنه) , who not only put up with the torture of the unbelievers, but the taunts and ridicules of fellow 'believers', simply for being who he was. 

[ummulbaneen]

I have seen similar ostracization within shia circles too even for non-reverts. For example, a former sunni gets ostracized by their sunni community, while never included in the shia community. This is a major reason a lot of formerly sunni shias end up having more interaction with sunnis than their fellow shias, and quite often their kids end up marrying back in the sunni community even if they would have personally preferred to intermarry with shias.

and ofcourse, Racism. The disease our ummah just seems hell bent on retaining.

[Abu Hadi]

I wanted to address another point which the Sayyid mentioned in OP. He said that Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the US and that this is a myth based on an old study (which he names in his speech). He said the purpose of this study was to 'scare' certain groups in the US to start taking action against Muslims.

A few points on this

While the US Government does not collect data on religious affiliation in it's official census that it conducts every 10 years, there have been other studies such as 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/#:~:text=But while Islam is currently,the end of this century.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/10/politics/muslim-population-growth-second-religious-group-trnd/index.html

The majority of the studies show that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US. The number of Muslims in the US is expected to triple in the next 25 years. These numbers don't tell the whole story and you need to look a little closer at this issue to get the correct perspective.

1. The number of Muslims currently in the US is a small percentage of the population. Most studies say between 3 and 7%. 

2. The other major religious groups in the US, i.e. Christians and Jews have large populations that are either stable or shrinking, i.e. not much growth is expected in these groups within the next 25 years. 

3. If Muslims are say 5% of the US population, even if this triples in the next 25 years, to 15%, Muslims would still be a minority, though a more significant one. 

This growth is due almost exclusively to the fact that Muslim families tend to have more children than the general population, and to some extent also this is due to immigration from Muslims countries, although this (immigration) has been slowing down in recent years due to Trump's Muslim ban, which he partially implemented (and which Biden isn't doing much to change, btw) and the fact that immigration to the US amoung most other groups is down due to tightening immigration laws. 

In the 1960s, 70s, and into the early 1980s there was a large wave of immigration to the US from Muslim countries. It is the children of these immigrants, mostly, and their children which is responsible for the growth of the Muslim population in the US. The Revert community is a tiny minority within the general Muslim community, and he is correct that the percentage of reverts in the Muslim community (US born brothers and sisters with non muslim parents) is not growing. The main reason is not complicated. I'll explain

If you look at Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imams of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), they were the instrument for reversion of many individuals. The only criteria was that those individuals were sincere (i.e. has Iklas) and they had exposure to the Prophet and Imams((عليه السلام)). This was all that was necessary. The ones who reverted were convinced of the truthfulness of the religion by two things, The knowledge and the Aklaq of the Imams((عليه السلام)). Their knowledge convinced the mind, their Aklaq convinced the heart.

For most people, the vast majority, the heart needs to be convinced first, then the mind. That is why the majority of reverts in the US are women who reverted after being married to a Muslim man who was practicing. This convinced their heart, because of his Aklaq, then the mind became convinced. I am one of those rare cases where my mind was convinced before my heart about the truth of Islam, then my heart became convinced quite a bit later. If we want to know how good our Aklaq is, as an Ummah in the US, we need to look at the number of reverts. If the amount is small, that means we have alot to work on in our Aklaq. We have alot to work on. 

One of the main reasons for this is that there is this myth about the religion that is perpetuated on the Internet and other places (I have heard it on ShiaChat many times). The  myth is that having good aklaq is optional, and having good aklaq is not a requirement of being a good Muslim/a. It is like 'extra credit' on and exam. This is perpetuated by Muslims who believe that Islam is a religion that was revealed for robots. You just pray,fast, pay your khums, go the Hajj, etc robotically, with no feeling and no comprehension of what you are doing and the meaning behind it. Just do the acts, physically, and you are a good Muslim. 

They don't realize that Muawiya and Yazid(la) prayed, they fasted, read Quran, they went to Hajj, they gave charity. THe Khawarij did those things also. They did all those things, yet were they 'good muslims'. Absolutely not. We know this for sure. It is because they had the deen mechanically with no Iklas, no sincerity, and no aklaq. The 'optional' things are the goal of the other things. The mechanics of the deen (prayer, fasting, hajj, khums, etc) are only vehicles or stepping stones for us to get to the point or the goal of the religion, which is to have good Aklaq and then have the Iklas and the strong Iman and Taqwa. That is the goal. The emphasis in the community is on the mechanics of the religion and how someone appears in the community. The mechanics are important, but as long as we don't have the real goal in mind, we will never reach it. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Hassanain]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:32 AM, Abu Hadi said:

Bismillah Ar Rahman, Ar Rahim

 

This is in response to some recent videos I have watched on Youtube that were very inspirational and made me think. The first is by Sayyid Mustafa Qazwini. It was given a few years ago, I think 7 years ago but is still very relevant. Here is the speech. 

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) continue to bless Dr. Mustafa Qazwini and his family. I really get inspired by his speeches and he is doing a great service to the Muslim community in America and in my home state of California. Even though I have lived in Michigan for 20 years, I will always consider California, and particularly the L.A. metro area to be my home. Being a revert myself, and someone who was born and raised in California, I would like to respond to a few of his points. 

First, in general he is correct that most reverts to Islam, especially Shia reverts do not attend masjid or go to Islamic centers on a regular basis. They are in general isolated from the wider community, which is a huge problem that needs to be addressed and if it isn't addressed will undermine the growth of Islam in the US. Some of these issues have to do with the reverts themselves, and some have to do with the muslim community. 

The point that I agree with him about 100% is the fact that the main problem about Islam not being appealing to Americans in general is that America is a very materialistic society. Most Americans feel that the source of their happiness or misery is in material things. This could be greater wealth, a better house, a better job, drugs / alcohol, consumer goods, social status, etc. The focus of the society is on attaining happiness thru gaining that material thing that makes you feel 'good' or 'happy'. This is promoted constantly thru the media and most people buy into it and spend the vast majority of their time trying to attain that 'thing', material thing that will make them happy and satisfied. Companies and Corporations benefit tremendously from this aggressive pursuit of that 'thing' by selling that 'thing' to the people or pretending like they are selling it. The government also benefits thru collecting taxes on the labor that Americans do in this pursuit. So this is now the consensus in America, that I will pursue that 'thing' and you will pursue that 'thing' for you and this will lead to happiness and satisfaction. 

Religion has been pushed to play a very minor role in society. So most Americans think of religion as something 'optional' you do if you have the time, or if it makes you feel 'good'. If you don't have the time, or it doesn't make you feel 'good' then it is perfectly fine to discard it, since it doesn't make much difference anyway. So a religion like Islam, which makes demands on a person, daily demands like prayer and fasting during the month of Ramadan, refraining from alcohol, refraining from pre marital relations, and talks about punishment from God if someone doesn't do these things is something that most Americans find 'extreme', 'demanding', and something they don't have the time or energy for. In addition, there are efforts made by the media to portray Islam as extreme and 'backward' and something that would be a negative if it were adopted widely in society. 

So considering all that, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the vast majority of Americans are not interested in becoming Muslim, Shia, or even hearing about Islam. The surprising part to me is that we, as Muslims and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) have completely failed in making the counter argument and doing advocacy for Islam and teaching of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) amoung the wider, non Muslim population. There are a few exceptions to this, and these exceptions are some of the Sunni brothers and sisters who are doing this. I haven't seen a Shia group in the US actively doing this. This is the sad part. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that the vast majority of reverts to Islam are Sunni. That is because they are the ones doing the dawa to the non muslims and we (followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) are not). That is the only reason. 

The ones who revert into Shia Islam are 'one off' cases like myself, and another like this dear sister, whose video I will post below. Please listen to her story, it will give you lots of inspiration. 

 

I disagree with the Sayyid's point about 'Revert Centers'. I actually don't think there should be centers specifically for Reverts. If we do that, we are just making another 'Ethnic Social Club' for Americans just like some masjids are actually just 'Ethnic Social Clubs' for Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis, etc. The role of the masjid in Islam is much greater and more profound than this. I think we need to take steps to integrate Reverts into our existing Masjids by making them feel safe, welcome, and feel like their specific needs and issues are being addressed and they are getting the help they need. We don't need more buildings, we need to change our behavior. I will explain with a few points below. 

I will address a few points about what I think we could do to improve our programs and make them more appealing to reverts

1. Language. I actually think this is the most important one. Whenever we have an alim who starts a speech or a program, they begin with a few minutes of Dua, Quran, and Salawat. This is all in Arabic and it lasts for sometimes up to 10 minutes. Me being someone who has some familiarity with Arabic and Dua and Quran, I understand what he is saying, but most reverts, especially new reverts, don't. They walk in, assume this is an Arabic program, and then leave. They are not going to sit there thru an entire program in a language which they don't understand (based on their assumption that it is an Arabic program). This further increases their isolation. I understand the importance of doing these dua and Salawat, and Ziyarat before the program, but I think they could be shortened to less than a minute, beginning with the Balsama (Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim), then a short Salawat or a short dua or ayat from the Quran. This will fulfill the obligation and set the tone, and will also make the programs more accessible to Reverts.

2. Personal Interaction / Mentoring. More than half of reverts do not feel welcome when they walk into the masjid or center. They are either looked at with suspicion, ignored, or treated like a museum exhibit for people to stare and point at. None of these types of interactions make them feel welcome and make them want to run out of the building at the earliest opportunity. I think it would be very simple for a masjid to have a mentoring program for new reverts. When they walk into the masjid, there could be a sign or something saying 'New Revert To Islam. Are you interested in participating in our mentoring program?'. Maybe they could fill out a survey or it would have contact information for a Revert Liaison for the Masjid that is interested in working with new reverts (gender appropriate, men for men, women for women) and has the background / language skills to understand their particular issues. I know many not so new reverts like myself that would be interested in volunteering to be a mentor for such programs. 

There are other things that the regular brothers and sister who attend could do to make reverts feel more comfortable, like maybe not staring at them, or not automatically assuming that they are Police / FBI / CIA. They should be treated like any other member of the community and should be assumed to be what they appear to be (a revert to Islam with no pre set agenda) unless there is very strong evidence pointing in the other direction. There are other things which I could post in another thread. 

3. Program timing and frequency. Don't start programs late in the Evenings on weekdays. Most Americans don't stay up late on weekdays. For example Ramadan programs in this area begin after Iftar, at 9:30 or 10:30 at night. Most Americans work from 9 to 5 and they need time before work to get to work, get the kids ready, etc, which means most wake up around 6:30 or 7. If they are at the Masjid till midnight or later and then have to get home, they will be sleep deprived and this will affect their work. Starting programs at 6:30 or 7 would be better, even during Ramadan. Make the programs shorter, more frequent, and more focused on specific issues that affect the lives of reverts. Most Americans, coming from the church background, are used to going to religious programs at least once a week, and the programs lasting 45 minutes to an hour at most.  

4. Support services that are specifically aimed at new reverts. They should know that if they walk into the masjid, it will be a safe place for them, and their specific needs will be addressed, if the masjid / center has the resources to address them. So if they need help in any sort of way, that there is someone there who will listen to them and attempt to fulfill their needs and if they can't, at least they will try to point them in the direction on someone who can. This applies generally to Muslims, and not only to reverts. A masjid should be a place where people go for solutions to their problems, not just spiritual problems, but any problems they may be having in their life. It should not only be a place where people go to do Salat, Majalis, then leave. 

5. Reverts as Decision Makers at Masjids / Centers. Most masjids don't have any reverts in decision making roles. There needs to be revert representation on things like Boards of Directors, Executive Committees, etc if the person is qualified for the role. 

There are other points which I could post, but I think this is enough for now. 

Salam

I disagree with changing the program time as the program should be time should be after congregational prayers, and I like the very long, very traditional programs with as much supplication as possible

However, other than the recitation of Quran and the prayers at the small center, I run, I do all the supplications visitations, short, supplications, eulogies, historical, animations, etc. in English I think we can be very traditional, but very practical with the language

Things would’ve gone better if other scholars would’ve followed the lead of Shaikh Fadl Lankraini who gave the rolling that mounts the pulpit in Canada has to speak in either French or English where is other scholars and I’m back in the name who, but very prominent scholars have ruled that the clergy men who comes to the west are not even required to learn the local language. It’s recommended but it’s not an obligation.

I have mixed feelings about so-called revert centers I in general dislike the convert revert, etc. there’s no equivalent in Arabic. The words are mean like new Muslim but once you been Muslim for a while, you should just be Muslim my father-in-law who is from the holy family in several different racial backgrounds people would ask him where he’s from he would say aAllah Where are you from Allah however humans are tribal and probably eventually we need black American centers white American centers and Hispanic American centers and they’ll probably be further divided on which scholar they follow in social economic lines. It’s not ideal but it’s reality in my opinion at this point.

wallahu Alam 

[Haji 2003]

Sorry it’s a bit random, thought the ideas were interesting