Russian invasion of Ukraine [Official Thread]

[iCenozoic]

1 hour ago, Marbles said:

NATO is expanding not because Russia is aggressive. Russia has displayed aggression precisely because NATO is expanding without a thought to Russia's security concerns. There is a cause and there is an effect. 

Ironically, the very seeking to join NATO is what that brought on Russia's attack on Ukraine. They were safe and would have remained safe had they not sold out to the highest bidder. Like I said, a very unwise decision on the part of the ideological ethno-nationalists in power in Kyiv.

Russia accepted the eastward expansion with diplomatic protest only, including the inclusion of Baltic states at its border, but it reacted when strategically vital countries like Georgia and Ukraine were also primed to be subsumed into NATO. Why? Because Ukraine is absolutely fundamental to Russia geopolitical interests due to its proximity to the Black sea and Russian critical infrastructure passing through it. They don't want their future and strategic independence to be at the mercy of NATO's military machine, and I can totally understand and sympathise with their concerns.

Russia has displayed its concern through diplomacy and dialogue for years on end. The West's response was to tell him to shut up and continue with their policy of encircling Russia. 

 

I'm not sure how you know which one precedes the other. 

Firstly, Ukraine is an independent nation, and should have the right to join whatever defensive alliance it wants. 

Canada is of geopolitical interest to the United States, but that doesn't mean that the United States has the right to invade and destroy the Canadian government if the Canadian government ever made an independent choice to join an alliance with China or Russia (not that this would ever feasibly happen anyway, but let's consider other examples). Or take another example, south Korea is geopolitically valuable to China, but that doesn't mean that china has the right to destroy south Korea's government just because they've aligned with the US, or Japan's, or any other nation in the south china sea. You could say the same about Australia. China can't just go threaten Sydney with nuclear weapons just because Sydney allies with the west and is strategically positioned. 

Israel is threatened by Iran every day (and based on the history some might say arguably so), but that doesn't give the US the right to go blow up Iran. And Iran is threatened by Israel every day as well, but that doesn't mean that Iran can rightfully develop nuclear weapons and simply attack Israel. 

We've come a long way since the cold war. We've come a long way since WW2. It's a different world now and you can't just go around blowing up any government that isn't in bed with you. 

I think that the fact that Russia has been continually invading and threatening and posturing, is a demonstration of why all of these nations are turning to Europe for safety. They weren't always a part of NATO. 

And I just don't see how you reach a conclusion that these Baltic states are flocking to NATO by some random choice that has nothing to do with a threat by an overbearing Russia.  These nations weren't happy in their Warsaw pact, and they weren't happy with the Soviet union's overbearing control. And they wanted freedom from that military influence.

We're looking at over a dozen independent baltic countries that have sought out protection from NATO. They're not all a bunch of idiots. Imagine if Russia annexed Ukraine. Would Russia then have the right to annex Poland too because Poland were "too close" to it's borders? Putin can't just go around destroying and capturing whoever or whatever he wants just because he feels "threatened" by some imaginary enemy in little ol Ukraine which has a fraction of it's military power.

For Ukraine, joining NATO would be a defensive act, and Ukraine would never attack Russia (for obvious reasons that it would never win). The nation hasn't even been accepted into nato and it's being destroyed, which I would say demonstrates who the real aggressor is in the situation. It's not Ukraine that is the aggressor, it's not Germany or Poland or France etc. The real aggressor is the nation with 150k troops marching into Ukraine posturing with nuclear weapons.

Edited March 1, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Abu Hadi]

1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

I'm not sure how you know which one precedes the other. 

Firstly, Ukraine is an independent nation, and should have the right to join whatever defensive alliance it wants. 

 

Then you should be against the sanctions and embargos on Cuba and Venezuela. Cuba and Venezuela are independent countries. They should be allowed to join whatever alliance they want. Haven't heard much about what the US Govt is doing in or has done in Latin America for the last 100 years or so. 

This thing about 'independent countries' is selectively applied. It all depends on who benefits who at a given moment in time. Putin is doing the same thing. I'm not saying I agree with what he is doing, but if there is a general principle, it should be followed consistently. 

The genesis of injustice is believing in the phrase 'These rules apply to you but not to me' or 'These rights are for me and not for you'. This kind of thinking was one of the main things Islam came to destroy. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

Quote

 

Tehran, Iran – Iran wishes for the war in Ukraine to end but believes the crisis is rooted in the policies of the United States and other Western nations, Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has said.

“In Ukraine, we are in favour of stopping the war,” he said during a televised speech on Tuesday, adding that a crisis can be alleviated only if the “root cause” is known, which he identified as the policies of the Western powers.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/iran-khamenei-ukraine-war-russia-us-policies-nato

[Haji 2003]

Quote

Hill spent many years studying history, and in our conversation, she repeatedly traced how long arcs and trends of European history are converging on Ukraine right now. We are already, she said, in the middle of a third World War, whether we’ve fully grasped it or not.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

My emphasis above...

[Marbles]

2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I'm not sure how you know which one precedes the other.

An honest and objective reading of the history of post-Cold war politics can help anyone understand the genesis of the present conflict. And it wasn't the weak and broken Russia of the 90s that started it. 

The thing is that West failed to maintain a balance. When Russians thought they were strong enough to counter NATO, they acted.

Why ex-Soviet European states are jumping into the NATO bloc? The answer is quite simple. You join the victor, especially when you're a small country with little power and regional influence. It helps you get funds and technology in return for services rendered to the foreign power. This may have been out of free choice™ but every free choice™ has consequences. They could exercise free choice to maintain neutrality, which would have been a great display of statesmanship.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Marbles

[iCenozoic]

35 minutes ago, Marbles said:

An honest and objective reading of the history of post-Cold war politics can help anyone understand the genesis of the present conflict. And it wasn't the weak and broken Russia of the 90s that started it. 

The thing is that West failed to maintain a balance. When Russians thought they were strong enough to counter NATO, they acted.

Why ex-Soviet European states are jumping into the NATO bloc? The answer is quite simple. You join the victor, especially when you're a small country with little power and regional influence. It helps you get funds and technology in return for services rendered to the foreign power. This may have been out of free choice™ but every free choice™ has consequences. They could exercise free choice to maintain neutrality, which would have been a great display of statesmanship.

 

This response basically sounds like you're saying, the Baltic states are all in danger of being destroyed because they made a free choice to receive economic support to build up their economies and technology.

They aren't a military threat to Russia. As Ukraine is no such thing to Russia. And yet, you think that Russia is justified in destroying them in addition to posturing the use of nuclear weapons to prevent intervention of their destruction.

That's what this response sounds like to me.

Edited March 1, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Then you should be against the sanctions and embargos on Cuba and Venezuela. Cuba and Venezuela are independent countries. They should be allowed to join whatever alliance they want. Haven't heard much about what the US Govt is doing in or has done in Latin America for the last 100 years or so. 

This thing about 'independent countries' is selectively applied. It all depends on who benefits who at a given moment in time. Putin is doing the same thing. I'm not saying I agree with what he is doing, but if there is a general principle, it should be followed consistently. 

The genesis of injustice is believing in the phrase 'These rules apply to you but not to me' or 'These rights are for me and not for you'. This kind of thinking was one of the main things Islam came to destroy. 

If the US invaded Cuba with hundreds of thousands of troops posturing the use of our nuclear arsenal, I promise you, I would be the first in the streets to protest.

Cuba's relations have gradually been improving over time with the US btw. And there is 0 interest in massacring their government with brute strength. Many Americans are also starting to vacation in Cuba now, which most certainly helps their economy and our mutual relations as well.

And I don't know much about Venezuela. But if you'd like to make a topic on it, I'd be happy to weight in.

There are times that we should all condemn US activities, such as the invasion of Iraq over the false pretext of an imminent use of WMDs, or the presence of US troops in Syria where we don't belong. And there are times to condemn Russia's activities. And now is a time to condemn Russia's activities, not to go on talking about how the Golan heights was annexed by allies of our deceased grandparents.

Edited March 1, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Marbles]

35 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

They aren't a military threat to Russia. As Ukraine is no such thing to Russia

They will be when Ukraine allows the US to deploy its ballistic missile systems on its territory and US warships to patrol Black sea.

[Marbles]

This 2015 lecture feels as if delivered a week ago. Worth watching...

 

[Haji 2003]

1 hour ago, Marbles said:

This 2015 lecture feels as if delivered a week ago.

Well it was posted here a week ago ... 

On 2/20/2022 at 12:48 PM, Haji 2003 said:

 

[Abu Hadi]

21 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

If the US invaded Cuba with hundreds of thousands of troops posturing the use of our nuclear arsenal, I promise you, I would be the first in the streets to protest.

Cuba's relations have gradually been improving over time with the US btw. And there is 0 interest in massacring their government with brute strength. Many Americans are also starting to vacation in Cuba now, which most certainly helps their economy and our mutual relations as well.

And I don't know much about Venezuela. But if you'd like to make a topic on it, I'd be happy to weight in.

There are times that we should all condemn US activities, such as the invasion of Iraq over the false pretext of an imminent use of WMDs, or the presence of US troops in Syria where we don't belong. And there are times to condemn Russia's activities. And now is a time to condemn Russia's activities, not to go on talking about how the Golan heights was annexed by allies of our deceased grandparents.

Actually now is the perfect time to talk about it. If you're going to condemn Russia, you should also condemn or at least recognize that extreme acts of injustice (invasion is only one of them) are now common place in our world unfortunately. They happen on all sides. 

The US doesn't have to invade a country to destroy them. The Russians have to do that because they don't control the world economy, so this is the only tool in their toolbox of destruction. Since the US forces all countries to trade oil in dollars, the dollar has become the world's reserve currency. Since the dollar is the worlds reserve currency and there is only one institution on earth that has the right to print dollars (The Federal Reserve Bank), the dollar runs the world economies. So if the US wants to destroy a country, like they have done recently with Venezuela, all they have to do is undermine the value of their currency and do an economic siege around them, thru various measures they are now taking with Russia. This leads to hyper inflation and scarcity of essential goods at the same time, which then is equivalent to setting off a nuclear bomb on their economy, the country goes into poverty, with all the nasty consequences that brings, and then usually the goal is reached, which is regime change, because the people overthrow the government. So because the US controls the world economically, they also, most of the time anyway, control it politically. 

The most recent cases of this are Lebanon (to try to get rid of Hezbollah and any Shia in government who don't fully cooperate with them), and Venezuela. I think they have almost succeeded in Venezuela, probably they won't succeed in Lebanon for other reason, or Iran (which is the ongoing more than 30 year project ) which have been talked about in other threads

So military invasion isn't the only way to subjugate another country. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Marbles]

You couldn't make that up!!

This is quite symptomatic of the hysteria in the West against everything to do with Russia.

[Marbles]

Quote

Some 498 Russian servicemen have been killed and nearly 1,600 wounded during the ongoing assault on Ukraine, Russia’s military claimed on Wednesday.

https://www.rt.com/russia/551084-military-fatalities-in-ukraine/

If Russians by their own admission have lost nearly 500 soldiers in seven days of conflict without taking any major city and without breaking the back of the Ukrainian army, then it is fair to say that the offensive isn't going to plan.  

Ukraine puts the figure in excess of 5500 which seems an exaggeration whereas Russia is most likely underreporting their casualties. The truth would be somewhere in the middle. 2000 to 2500?

A protracted war means a lot of Russian body bags and a lot more civilian deaths, destructions of cities and so on. 

Ukraine may become the bane of Putin's existence - a quagmire from which he may be unable to get out of.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Marbles

[Haji 2003]

47 minutes ago, Marbles said:

If Russians by their own admission have lost nearly 500 soldiers in seven days of conflict without taking any major city and without breaking the back of the Ukrainian army, then it is fair to say that the offensive isn't going to plan.  

 

Stalin gets a really bad press for his purges of Soviet military leaders - but the current lot come across as pretty useless. Honestly, if Putin were to shoot them I would not have much sympathy.

[Son of Placid]

This is Chrystia Freeland, keeper of Justin Trudeau's [edited]. She is of Ukrainian descent. She has a history, so does her Grandfather, for Ukrainian Nazism. 
I don't know the Ukrainian language at all but I'm pretty sure the scarf doesn't say;
"Pray for Ukraine and stop war". 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Haji 2003
offensive language

[Haji 2003]

Quote

 

Israel's Holocaust Memorial Museum and several influential figures have asked the US ambassador not to sanction Israeli-Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich prior to Moscow's invasion of Ukraine on Thursday, Israeli media reported this week.

Dani Dayan, the chairman of Yad Vashem, and other public figures, including Chief Rabbi David Lau and Yitshak Kreiss, the director of Sheba Medical Center, wrote to the US ambassador in Israel, Tom Nides, urging Washington not to sanction Abramovich.

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/russia-ukraine-war-israel-figures-appeal-us-not-sanction-abramovich

[Haji 2003]

This is an unofficial explanation of the Saudi line (hard to disagree with ...)

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

War in Ukraine Forces Israel Into a Delicate Balancing Act

Israel is a strong ally of the United States, and its leaders have a good relationship with Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s Jewish president. But Israel also doesn’t want to provoke Russia.

Quote

Israel is a key partner of the United States, and many Israelis appreciate longstanding cultural connections with Ukraine, which, for several months in 2019, was the only country other than their own with both a Jewish president — Volodymyr Zelensky — and a Jewish prime minister. But Russia is a critical actor in the Middle East, particularly in Syria, Israel’s northeastern neighbor and enemy, and the Israeli government believes it cannot risk losing Moscow’s favor.

 

Quote

Israel also wants to leave itself enough room to act as a go-between in the conflict. After Ukrainian requests, Mr. Bennett has offered at least twice to mediate between Russia and Ukraine, most recently on Sunday — when Mr. Bennett rushed abruptly from a cabinet meeting to speak with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia for 40 minutes. And Israeli officials, including Mr. Bennett, shuttled between their Russian, Ukrainian and American counterparts on Sunday afternoon, two senior Israeli officials said, a mediation that may have contributed to Ukraine’s decision to meet with Russian officials on the Belarusian-Ukrainian border.

 

Quote

It is a “delicate situation for Israel,” said Ehud Olmert, a former Israeli prime minister who dealt often with Mr. Putin during his time in office.

“On the one hand, Israel is an ally of the United States and a part of the West, and there can be no doubt about it,” Mr. Olmert said in a phone interview. “On the other hand, the Russians are present in Syria, we have delicate military and security problems in Syria — and that requires a certain freedom for the Israeli military to act in Syria.”

 

Quote

“Yes, I love Israel, but I have two countries and I need to defend both of them,” said Mykhailo, 25, an Israeli-Ukrainian digital marketer currently fighting in Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital, who asked to be identified only by his first name for security reasons.

“Here is a war,” he said in a phone interview on Sunday afternoon. “I need to do my job.”

 

Quote

But Russia also maintains a significant presence in Syria, and Israel needs Moscow’s good will to continue to operate there with ease. Israeli officials currently notify Russian counterparts about impending strikes, and vice versa, using a special encrypted communication line between the Israeli Air Force’s subterranean bunker, situated under a military base in Tel Aviv, and the Khmeimim air base in western Syria, a senior Israeli defense official said.

Russian planes have been more active around Syria’s borders in recent weeks, both on the western border with Israel and in eastern Syria where American planes frequently operate, the senior Israeli defense official said. The uptick may have been a show of force intended to send a signal about the growing Ukraine crisis, the official added.

 

Quote

Conscious of the need to placate Russia, Israel has rejected several requests in recent months to send military and intelligence equipment to Ukraine, three Israeli officials and a Ukrainian official said. The most recent request was rejected  by Mr. Bennett during the call on Friday, the Ukrainian official said.

 

Quote

TEL AVIV — On the day Russia invaded Ukraine, Israel’s prime minister, Naftali Bennett, did not mention Russia once. Mr. Bennett said he prayed for peace, called for dialogue and promised support for Ukrainian citizens. But he did not hint at Moscow’s involvement, much less condemn it — and it was left, as preplanned, to Mr. Bennett’s foreign minister, Yair Lapid, to criticize Moscow in a separate statement that day.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/world/middleeast/israel-ukraine-russia.html

[123SlaveOfAllah]

This whole war is for profit. It is always about profit. America doesn't care whether Ukraine loses or not. They just want to keep their military industry running.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis/story/uncle-sam-may-benefit-from-russia-ukraine-war-1919677-2022-03-02&ved=2ahUKEwiY0vTr0an2AhW1IbcAHbLbBzsQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1drR1iAzp0JF65aIAdiCje

Nato members are increasing military expenditure. Weapons are being supplied to Ukraine. 

Who benefits? Uncle Sam. 

Guerilla warfare will bring more profit. Like Afghanistan or syria 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

Also ukrianians are racist. Blue eyed blonde people are preferred over Indians and blacks.

Ukrainian forces are preventing Indians from going out. 2 students have already been killed.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/news/indian-students-in-ukraine-thrown-out-of-train-beaten-with-sticks-indian-student-to-ndtv-from-kyiv-s-622407&ved=2ahUKEwjIgKLp0qn2AhWlzDgGHYTbBGAQ0PADKAB6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw0ML4SdsN3WJxE5hUIFr7Oj

Indian students beaten by police. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://indianexpress.com/article/india/ukraine-crisis-pm-modi-dials-vladimir-putin-discusses-safe-evacuation-of-indian-nationals-7798081/&ved=2ahUKEwjcuurb0qn2AhW44jgGHZ0NA0EQ0PADKAB6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2cho_6inheLHpLvPiyJyGY

Putin says Ukraine taking Indians hostage. Well, might be true.

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/russia-ukraine-war/story/russia-ukraine-war-news-latest-racism-row-white-skin-blue-eyes-killed-1918857-2022-02-28

Racism in ukraine 

 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

India is also caught between the two behemoths. Lol

Modi ji has now seen what a war really is. Also scared because of s 400 and russian cyber attacks.

Perhaps russia had some connection in Indian armed forces commander bipin Rawat helicopter crash

[Haji 2003]

14 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Stalin gets a really bad press for his purges of Soviet military leaders - but the current lot come across as pretty useless. Honestly, if Putin were to shoot them I would not have much sympathy.

Fascinating thread on twitter from someone who seems to know what he is talking about, subsequent comments suggest that he really does.

Apparently the Russians have not been maintaining the tyres on their vehicles and in muddy parts of Ukraine, it's caused a huge problem, but areas where they are making progress mud is not so much of an issue.

 

[Abu Nur]

The backstabber Turkey see this chance to join The EU:

https://tass.com/pressreview/1415605

Nerver going to happen either.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Marbles]

4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Fascinating thread on twitter from someone who seems to know what he is talking about, subsequent comments suggest that he really does.

Apparently the Russians have not been maintaining the tyres on their vehicles and in muddy parts of Ukraine, it's caused a huge problem, but areas where they are making progress mud is not so much of an issue.

Like a character in the latest installment of Peaky Blinders says, "You are not a soldier, Tommy. You didn't even check your weapon."

[Abu Nur]

I Don't know how reliable is this now as Iranian oil is in increase and Usa wants to buy it too from Iran?

Edited March 3, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Haji 2003]

This seems to be the list of Russian oligarchs sanctioned by the United States:

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20220303

And I don't see Abramovich's name. Perhaps it is related to this:

Quote

Israel's Holocaust Memorial Museum and several influential figures have asked the US ambassador not to sanction Israeli-Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich prior to Moscow's invasion of Ukraine on Thursday, Israeli media reported this week.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/russia-ukraine-war-israel-figures-appeal-us-not-sanction-abramovich

[Haji 2003]

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I Don't know how reliable is this now as Iranian oil is in increase and Usa wants to buy it too from Iran?

 

How's this:

 

Quote

Iran Crude Oil: Production was reported at 2,503.000 Barrel/Day th in Jan 2022

Iran Oil Consumption was reported at 1,715.234 Barrel/Day th in Dec 2020

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/iran/crude-oil-production

That's not leaving much for exports, most of which (AIUI) are sold to China at a discount. So assuming sanctions are lifted, in the short term it will just mean that Iran benefits from not having to sell to the Chinese on the cheap.

It will likely take some months to raise production etc. to meet international demand.

IIRC sanctions on Russia will take 4m barrels off world markets, so supply will be constrained whatever happens.

[iCenozoic]

On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Abu Hadi said:

Actually now is the perfect time to talk about it. If you're going to condemn Russia, you should also condemn or at least recognize that extreme acts of injustice (invasion is only one of them) are now common place in our world unfortunately. They happen on all sides. 

The US doesn't have to invade a country to destroy them. The Russians have to do that because they don't control the world economy, so this is the only tool in their toolbox of destruction. Since the US forces all countries to trade oil in dollars, the dollar has become the world's reserve currency. Since the dollar is the worlds reserve currency and there is only one institution on earth that has the right to print dollars (The Federal Reserve Bank), the dollar runs the world economies. So if the US wants to destroy a country, like they have done recently with Venezuela, all they have to do is undermine the value of their currency and do an economic siege around them, thru various measures they are now taking with Russia. This leads to hyper inflation and scarcity of essential goods at the same time, which then is equivalent to setting off a nuclear bomb on their economy, the country goes into poverty, with all the nasty consequences that brings, and then usually the goal is reached, which is regime change, because the people overthrow the government. So because the US controls the world economically, they also, most of the time anyway, control it politically. 

The most recent cases of this are Lebanon (to try to get rid of Hezbollah and any Shia in government who don't fully cooperate with them), and Venezuela. I think they have almost succeeded in Venezuela, probably they won't succeed in Lebanon for other reason, or Iran (which is the ongoing more than 30 year project ) which have been talked about in other threads

So military invasion isn't the only way to subjugate another country. 

I wouldn't compare sanctions to dropping nuclear bombs. This just sounds like a poor attempt to justify Russia's actions. Sanctions give people the opportunity to negotiate and to change their actions. Invasion with use of bombs instantly kills people and destroys infrastructure. Iran has been sanctioned for decades now, but nobody can rightfully sit here and say that american sanctions on Iran are equivalent to America invading Iran.

If America invaded Iran, the place would be levelled and millions would die literally overnight. Alternatively, sanctions apply pressure while giving time for nations to negotiate and to adjust their actions. It leaves the door open for improved relations in the future. Sanctions can also be lifted. Bombs cannot be un-dropped.

It amazes me how many people in this website are suggesting that what Russia is doing is justified, and how much people want to fight to blame America for everyone else's issues. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:02 AM, Marbles said:

They will be when Ukraine allows the US to deploy its ballistic missile systems on its territory and US warships to patrol Black sea.

Which A. never happened and B. The US wouldn't attack Russia anyway.  

America has had a million and one opportunities to join this war now, but look at where America is at. Nowhere to be found.

That's right, because America, NATO and particularly Ukraine are not military threats to Russia. Russia could easily destroy literally the entire planet with nuclear weapons in a heartbeat, which means nobody would dare attack Russia. On the contrary, it is the opposite that is true, Russia is a military threat to NATO. And Russia has a history and is known to steamroll it's neighbors, just like it's doing right now. Ukraine would never ever attack Russia, so what does it even matter if American weapons were on ukraines soil? Yes, we can agree that it would upset Russia, but it is not grounds for mass invasion. Otherwise Russia ought to invade every other Baltic state too, Poland in particular. Russia may as well invade turkey as well, as they are just to the south and in NATO too. American weapons are on south Korean soil, does that make it ok for North Korea to destroy them? Weapons are on Japanese soil, does that make it ok for China to destroy them? The answer is no to all of the above.

It all goes back to our earlier discussion. Baltic states flocking to NATO are not justification for Russia's aggression. But Russia's aggression is justification for Baltic states flocking to NATO, as they have been doing. Nothing can justify mass invasion with threats of nuclear weapon use. Not in today's age. We don't live in the 50s anymore. Putin is still living in cold war times. He's trying to revive a Soviet empire of his dreams.

Nations around the world are condemning the invasion, condemning Russia's actions and applying sanctions, but shiachat remains defiant and in support, viewing Russia, the vastly more powerful nuclear power not as an oppressor, but as an oppressed underdog. Meanwhile Ukraine is some imaginary future Nazi state that deserves to be smashed.

Edited March 4, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

Just a brief clip on the topic^

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Marbles]

1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

...so what does it even matter if American weapons were on ukraines soil?

NATO forces which are gradually encircling Russia and the Russians which are being encircled will laugh at your security/military analysis, especially the part I have quoted, which is actually the bone of contention that led to this human catastrophe in Ukraine.

It is this wholesale imbibing of the narrative that's being pushed non-stop from the Western governments and media that so many Westerners are unable to see the conflict from any other point of view but theirs. One doesn't have to support Putin's actions or cheer for him to understand where he's coming from.

With this Western attitude, I'm not surprised the Russians had had to use military means to make themselves heard.

 

[iCenozoic]

3 hours ago, Marbles said:

NATO forces which are gradually encircling Russia and the Russians which are being encircled will laugh at your security/military analysis, especially the part I have quoted, which is actually the bone of contention that led to this human catastrophe in Ukraine.

It is this wholesale imbibing of the narrative that's being pushed non-stop from the Western governments and media that so many Westerners are unable to see the conflict from any other point of view but theirs. One doesn't have to support Putin's actions or cheer for him to understand where he's coming from.

With this Western attitude, I'm not surprised the Russians had had to use military means to make themselves heard.

 

NATO forces are just nations independently choosing to side against the aggression of Russia. If I was Russia's neighbor, I'd run to the EU too. Russia has no one to blame but it's aggressive self.

[Haji 2003]

Food implications for African/Middle Eastern countries

And the obvious political implications for their governments

Quote

Much of Ukraine and Russia’s black soil plains are no longer solely Europe’s breadbasket but also an important source of supplies for Asia, Africa and the Middle East. Those trying to relieve famine-stricken parts of the world such as Yemen, Afghanistan and Ethiopia, will face an even more daunting task. When food prices rose in 2008 it helped to spark the Arab spring and, eventually, civil war in Syria. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has sown the seeds of a crisis that will be felt well beyond European borders.

https://www.ft.com/content/555b7167-eaf2-43a0-a66f-802e39cccf36

[HusseinAbbas]

Second interview with Scott Ritter, the first few minutes of the video has problems, but I urge people to watch the entire video even if you do not agree with the points of the video.

This video exposes how dangerous the situation is in the world, this is a must watch. It also explains well what is happening right now in the conflict.

[Dubilex]

The demonization of Russia is exactly the same as the demonization of muslims following 9/11. The West has really shown their ugly face in this situation. The way that all these companies has punished Russia is truly disproportionate. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Dubilex