Russian invasion of Ukraine [Official Thread]

[Diaz]

May allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) curse them, I can’t believe they are comparing what’s happening in Syria and in Ukraine AND they are lying about what’s happening in Syria. 

[iCenozoic]

3 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

We were ok with the corruption and flaws elections that took place. Now that the Ukrainians are willing to die on our behalf we're providing them with the means to give the Russians a bloody nose. The Afghans have been through this kind of proxy war.

My quotation from Andrew Neil earlier in the thread supported this idea. We've been ok with oligarchs looting Russia, in fact we have facilitated it.

Is it really just a bloody nose at this point? And they aren't dying on behalf of the EU, they're fighting for freedom.  And I don't know if you've seen the demonstrations across the west, but if the west didn't care about Ukraine, they do now. 

It may have been different had Ukraine not demonstrated a will to fight or a will to be free.

Edited March 25, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Abu Hadi]

On 3/24/2022 at 7:54 AM, iCenozoic said:

People keep using this phrase "NATO is surrounding Russia". Iranians didn't "surround Mohammad Mosaddegh. Iranians didn't "surround" the US embassy in Iran.

rather, it's just the will of people who happen to simply live around Russia. Ukrainians didn't actively walk to the western border and then say "ok now that we are here, let's ask to join the EU". Rather it was pressure from a dangerous neighbor that compelled them to want protection from the EU. It was a danger to the Iranians that prompted them to attack the US embassy. Iranians didn't "surround" anything, it's just the will of people who are already there.

And look at just how correct Ukraine was in it's fear of Russia. And look at how correct it was and is to seek protection from the EU, and look at how incorrect it was in dismantling it's nuclear arsenal with the understanding that Russia would protect it's sovereignty.

Imagine if the US invaded Iran in 1989 and claimed it was justified because "the Iranians surrounded our embassy".

 

NATO countries 'are' surrounding Russia. That is a fact. Look up the countries surrounding Russia and see what their NATO membership status is. It's not something that is really an opinion. 

If Ukraine joining NATO was merely 'the will of the people', then I don't think anyone, probably even including Putin, would have a problem with it, but that's the whole issue here. Is it the 'will of the people' or is it the will of 'some people' which is being pushed on the other people and amplified thru the Western Media apparatus. Most people outside the US / EU believe it is the latter, while most people inside the US / EU believe it is the former. That is because each group is being 'spoon fed' certain facts about this conflict while other facts are being hidden from them. Of course, if you look at a conflict only thru the lens of one side or the other, with a very selective reading of the conflict, your opinion will follow from that selective reading. That is obvious. I try to look at the facts on both sides and try to come to a conclusion, or not come to a conclusion (as I have with this conflict) but safe in the knowledge that I am not 'selectively reading' the conflict. I realize that this type of behavior is rare these days. I am fine with being considered 'odd'. 

Oh, and btw, Iran was invaded in by Iraq under Saddam, who was a well known US puppet (at that time). So they were invaded by the US for surrounding the US Embassy, that actually happened(the embassy was surrounded in 1979). From the History Channel (not a pro Iranian source)

In September 1980, Iraqi forces launched a full-scale invasion of neighboring Iran, beginning the Iran-Iraq War

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/iran-iraq-war

Edited March 25, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Nur]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Range_Hypersonic_Weapon

Will be delivered this year to germany. Insanity.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Haji 2003]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:00 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Those are independent countries now, but the potential remains to take them further out of Russia's orbit. And the potential remains to do the same with ethnic groups in other Russian regions, like Dagestan.

 

Note the following on Al Jazeera today:

Quote

“The way Central Asia thinks about Russia has changed. While before, Russia was seen as a source of stability, it now seems that its presence in a very sensitive security dimension has become a weakness for the regional stability, sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Umarov said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/25/ukraine-war-is-central-asia-loosening-ties-with-russia

[iCenozoic]

11 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

NATO countries 'are' surrounding Russia. That is a fact. Look up the countries surrounding Russia and see what their NATO membership status is. It's not something that is really an opinion. 

If Ukraine joining NATO was merely 'the will of the people', then I don't think anyone, probably even including Putin, would have a problem with it, but that's the whole issue here. Is it the 'will of the people' or is it the will of 'some people' which is being pushed on the other people and amplified thru the Western Media apparatus. Most people outside the US / EU believe it is the latter, while most people inside the US / EU believe it is the former. That is because each group is being 'spoon fed' certain facts about this conflict while other facts are being hidden from them. Of course, if you look at a conflict only thru the lens of one side or the other, with a very selective reading of the conflict, your opinion will follow from that selective reading. That is obvious. I try to look at the facts on both sides and try to come to a conclusion, or not come to a conclusion (as I have with this conflict) but safe in the knowledge that I am not 'selectively reading' the conflict. I realize that this type of behavior is rare these days. I am fine with being considered 'odd'. 

I think we can let the reality of the war in Ukraine demonstrate the will of the people. They don't seem to be overthrowing their own government despite zelenskis repeated interests in joining NATO. On the contrary, local governors in Ukraine in captured cities are being abducted, as per usual by Russias standards. But those local governors were all coerced into supporting Zelenski by France and Germany, so that doesn't count. They must have been brainwashed by the west (this is sarcasm of course).

And yes, obviously Putin would have an issue with the people of Ukraine joining NATO, hence why Russia has invaded and is blowing their cities to smitherines. 

Unless of course you think that all the other Baltic nations and EU nations and turkey and governments of all the other nations allegedly "surrounding Russia" all happen to be controlled by western puppet governments that merely coerced them all into joining NATO as well?

Yes, it's some grand master brainwashing plan by the EU to control all the former Warsaw pact nations, and Ukraines interest in self defense through NATO isn't vindicated at all by Russia leveling it's cities and killing it's civilians.

It's all just some brainwashing western ploy. Being defended by the west isn't actually in the interest of the Ukrainian people...Right.

Maybe rather than focusing on western propaganda, we should be more critical of Russian propaganda. Russia is also a master of misinformation, it always has been, let's not forget that. Speaking of which, I noted this before, but I find it interesting that Russia seeks to liberate the people of Donetsk, and yet, Mariupol, which appears to be the second largest city of Donetsk appears to be being starved out and indiscriminately leveled. So much for protecting the interests of the people. The real story is that Russia wants geopolitical control, and is willing to slaughter and maim anyone that gets in it's way, including it's smaller, non-nuclear, weaker neighbors. And what easier way to get away with it, than to blame the west while threatening the use of nuclear warfare (essentially a global apocalypse of unseen civilian casualties) to deter intervention?

The fact that everyone keeps pointing fingers at Israel or the US in Iraq is a testament to how ugly Russia's actions have become, as if people want to change the subject to talk about wars decades or generations ago in other regions, rather than being critical of the invasion happening today. I don't want to talk about Russia blowing up that maternity clinic full of pregnant women, I want to talk about the west bank! There is a place and a time to be critical of Israel and the us, among other nations. But now is a time to own up to this atrocity unfolding at the hands of Putin.

 

And regarding Iran taking the US embassy, you're proving my point! The Iranians didn't "surround" the US embassy. They just wanted to be free of the threat of the US, and that's all the people of Ukraine want. And Russia invading is just as ugly as the US supporting saddams atrocities. The difference between the two is, Saddam invaded over 40 years ago (I actually wasn't alive back then, so unfortunately I had no say in the situation). And Russia is invading today. So let's use history to be a bit more critical of what people are doing today.

Edited March 26, 2022 by iCenozoic

[123SlaveOfAllah]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://indianexpress.com/article/world/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-putin-nato-zelenskyy-biden-lviv-mariupol-kyiv-7833671/&ved=2ahUKEwjH8ry-_eL2AhUU6nMBHUIqBk0Q0PADKAB6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw0UWNxQgL3XDWMzgl7ZXcVJ

Russia hints change in plan, will focus on Donbass

[iCenozoic]

7 hours ago, 123SlaveOfAllah said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://indianexpress.com/article/world/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-putin-nato-zelenskyy-biden-lviv-mariupol-kyiv-7833671/&ved=2ahUKEwjH8ry-_eL2AhUU6nMBHUIqBk0Q0PADKAB6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw0UWNxQgL3XDWMzgl7ZXcVJ

Russia hints change in plan, will focus on Donbass

Yes, the "liberation" of the people of Mariupol. 

Oh wait...

Caution, graphic images follow:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fighting-rages-ukraines-mariupol-says-regional-governor-2022-03-22/

https://mariupolrada.gov.ua/en/news/zvernennja-miskogo-golovi-mariupolja-vadima-bojchenka

"Dear residents of Mariupol!

I urge everyone to remain calm and not to succumb to provocations and various kinds of information attacks. What we all expected and feared happened. We again hear explosions around the city.

But now I want to say the main thing briefly. Our Ukrainian army is fulfilling its main mission - protecting the city and Ukraine. Local self-government bodies of Mariupol work and perform their functions, taking into account the defense emergency. Our main task now is to ensure the functioning of emergency services and the life support of the city and to take care of all Mariupol residents"

 

Once Russia takes the city, let's see if they abduct the governor calling him a "western puppet". "Liberation" they call it.

If Russia didn't make regional enemies all the Baltic states before, it undoubtedly has now.

[Northwest]

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I think we can let the reality of the war in Ukraine demonstrate the will of the people. They don't seem to be overthrowing their own government despite Zelenski’s repeated interests in joining NATO.

@iCenozoic

One can say the same about most people in the West.

The problem is that both the West and Ukraine, along with other parts of the globalised world, are ruled by corrupt and unrepresentative political and economic systems that engender apathy among the masses, who are mostly concerned about their daily lives and are easily corralled by “mainstream” institutions that reflect the interests of the moneyed powers that be.

More often than not inertia tends to dominate on all sides, allowing the elite to maintain the status quo.

In Ukraine only a small number of people actively support joining NATO and/or the EU, while a similarly small part actively supports the armed, pro-Russia forces.

Most Ukrainians are indifferent and simply care about their financial and familial prospects.

Those with ties to the West relocate to the West, while those with ties to Russia head to Russia. Still others stay in Ukraine for lack of means.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

On the contrary, local governors in Ukraine in captured cities are being abducted, as per usual by Russias standards. But those local governors were all coerced into supporting Zelenski by France and Germany, so that doesn't count. They must have been brainwashed by the West (this is sarcasm of course).

I think it is clear that the Western elites have more financial, military, and general influence than Russia and her allies do.

Just compare Western (NATO/U.S.) vs. non-Western (Russia et al.) military expenditure, overseas defence infrastructure (including declared and undeclared bases, special operations, biowarfare facilities, etc.), communications (Silicon Valley: Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google, etc.), linguistic influence (English), banking (IMF, World Bank, etc.), religion (Catholic/Protestant vs. Orthodox and other faiths), academic reach (Harvard, Oxford, et al.), NGOs (Council on Foreign Relations, Chatham House/RIIA, et al.), popular culture (Hollywood), personalities (celebrities, philanthropists, and public figures such as George Soros, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and so on), and other metrics.

Ask yourself the following: how many bases, allies, or “friends” does Russia have abroad, beyond her traditional sphere of influence? Exclude cases such as Belarus or Armenia. In the Western Hemisphere Russia has, at best, Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua. In the Eastern Russia can count on China, mainly due to shared interests vis-à-vis the West/NATO/U.S., as well as Iran to some degree, along with North Korea and a few other scattered actors. Russia does not have military bases beyond her immediate frontiers or peripheral neighbours such as Tajikistan, Armenia, Japan (Kuril Islands), Ukraine (Crimea), and so on. By contrast the West/NATO/U.S. have full-spectrum global reach and influence, including hundreds or even thousands of declared and/or undeclared concentrations of troops, proxy forces, and so on.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

And yes, obviously Putin would have an issue with the people of Ukraine joining NATO, hence why Russia has invaded and is blowing their cities to smitherines.

Even if this is the case, Russia is acting no differently from any other country that perceives a proximate threat to its security. Again, perception is important. The U.S. has long interfered in Latin America on the basis of its “Monroe Doctrine” and continues to do so to this day. The Spanish–American War (“remember the Maine!”), support for various dictatorships (such as Batista, Trujillo, Somoza, Pinochet, Stroessner, Videla, and so on), and attempts to oust “unfriendly” leaders such as Castro, Chávez, Morales, Ortega, and so on. No country or superpower has clean hands in regard to power politics, especially in its “near abroad” or “sphere of influence,” so neither the U.S. nor Russia can claim to have clean hands in this regard. The U.S. is just more blatantly hypocritical and dishonest about its actual motives, especially given the wide disparity between the power of the U.S. and that of Russia et al. Whatever Russia does in Ukraine is none of America’s business, just as whatever America does within her “sphere” should be none of Russia’s. But the West/NATO/U.S. has proven totally inconsistent in this regard.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Unless of course you think that all the other Baltic nations and EU nations and turkey and governments of all the other nations allegedly "surrounding Russia" all happen to be controlled by western puppet governments that merely coerced them all into joining NATO as well?

Do you think the existence of “power elites” is a “conspiracy theory”? Is geopolitics a “fringe theory”?

Great powers have always coerced, bribed, or bullied weaker parties into joining “their” side.

The West/NATO/U.S. is no exception to this historical rule. Neither is Russia, obviously. But the West/NATO/U.S. is more powerful than Russia and is able to exert more informational influence (“control the narrative”) on a wider and more profound scale, regardless of which “side” is more “truthful.”

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Yes, it's some grand master brainwashing plan by the EU to control all the former Warsaw pact nations, and Ukraines interest in self defense through NATO isn't vindicated at all by Russia leveling it's cities and killing it's civilians.

Look at how effectively the West brainwashed its citizens into believing that fractional-reserve banking was a great idea, that jet fuel and Arab terrorists downed aircraft-proof Twin Towers, that Saddam’s Iraq was planning to attack the West/Israel with WMD, that the CIA’s influence on the MSM was a “loony” and “anti-American ‘theory,’” and that Syria attacked her own people with chemical weapons—a move that would trigger a no-fly zone—while she was winning a war vs. foreign-backed mercenaries.

If you have money and influence, you can buy off and persuade a very large number of people, or even pressure them.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

It's all just some brainwashing western ploy. Being defended by the west isn't actually in the interest of the Ukrainian people...Right.

Neutrality would be in the interest of the Ukrainian people. But neither side wants that, especially the West, which is more powerful than Russia. One can also argue that the Russian response to date has been rather restrained. After the Western-backed forces took power in Kiev in 2014, Russia only seized Crimea and did not stage a full-fledged invasion of Ukraine. Even today Putin refrains from putting all his available forces into Ukraine and is clearly not eager to actually conquer the entire country.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Russia is also a master of misinformation, it always has been, let's not forget that.

So the other side is always devious but “our“ side is exceptional. After all, the other side is “genetically driven” toward evil.

This kind of racist othering and arrogant jingoism always conceals a deep-rooted insecurity about one’s own motives/fears.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

The real story is that Russia wants geopolitical control, and is willing to slaughter and maim anyone that gets in it's way, including it's smaller, non-nuclear, weaker neighbors. And what easier way to get away with it, than to blame the west while threatening the use of nuclear warfare (essentially a global apocalypse of unseen civilian casualties) to deter intervention?

Ukraine is part of Russia’s sphere of influence. The West has no business interfering in Ukraine, regardless of Putin’s moves.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

The fact that everyone keeps pointing fingers at Israel or the US in Iraq is a testament to how ugly Russia's actions have become, as if people want to change the subject to talk about wars decades or generations ago in other regions, rather than being critical of the invasion happening today. I don't want to talk about Russia blowing up that maternity clinic full of pregnant women, I want to talk about the west bank! There is a place and a time to be critical of Israel and the us, among other nations. But now is a time to own up to this atrocity unfolding at the hands of Putin.

With all due respect, who is giving you the “script” to “own” the narrative and tell other people what to discuss? I’m curious.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

And regarding Iran taking the US embassy, you're proving my point! The Iranians didn't "surround" the US embassy. They just wanted to be free of the threat of the US, and that's all the people of Ukraine want.

Then they clearly do not want to be part of NATO, even if they do not wish to be too close to Russia.

15 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

And Russia invading is just as ugly as the US supporting saddams atrocities.

By this logic, a country that is defending itself against an invader/intruder is equivalent to the offending aggressor.

Russia is not surrounding anybody in Ukraine. But the West has obviously interfered in Russia’s sphere of influence.

If Russia were actually stationing forces in Mexico, I would be defending the U.S. But here the U.S. is provoking.

[Abu Hadi]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:39 PM, iCenozoic said:

I think we can let the reality of the war in Ukraine demonstrate the will of the people. They don't seem to be overthrowing their own government despite zelenskis repeated interests in joining NATO. On the contrary, local governors in Ukraine in captured cities are being abducted, as per usual by Russias standards. But those local governors were all coerced into supporting Zelenski by France and Germany, so that doesn't count. They must have been brainwashed by the west (this is sarcasm of course).

And yes, obviously Putin would have an issue with the people of Ukraine joining NATO, hence why Russia has invaded and is blowing their cities to smitherines. 

Unless of course you think that all the other Baltic nations and EU nations and turkey and governments of all the other nations allegedly "surrounding Russia" all happen to be controlled by western puppet governments that merely coerced them all into joining NATO as well?

Yes, it's some grand master brainwashing plan by the EU to control all the former Warsaw pact nations, and Ukraines interest in self defense through NATO isn't vindicated at all by Russia leveling it's cities and killing it's civilians.

It's all just some brainwashing western ploy. Being defended by the west isn't actually in the interest of the Ukrainian people...Right.

Maybe rather than focusing on western propaganda, we should be more critical of Russian propaganda. Russia is also a master of misinformation, it always has been, let's not forget that. Speaking of which, I noted this before, but I find it interesting that Russia seeks to liberate the people of Donetsk, and yet, Mariupol, which appears to be the second largest city of Donetsk appears to be being starved out and indiscriminately leveled. So much for protecting the interests of the people. The real story is that Russia wants geopolitical control, and is willing to slaughter and maim anyone that gets in it's way, including it's smaller, non-nuclear, weaker neighbors. And what easier way to get away with it, than to blame the west while threatening the use of nuclear warfare (essentially a global apocalypse of unseen civilian casualties) to deter intervention?

The fact that everyone keeps pointing fingers at Israel or the US in Iraq is a testament to how ugly Russia's actions have become, as if people want to change the subject to talk about wars decades or generations ago in other regions, rather than being critical of the invasion happening today. I don't want to talk about Russia blowing up that maternity clinic full of pregnant women, I want to talk about the west bank! There is a place and a time to be critical of Israel and the us, among other nations. But now is a time to own up to this atrocity unfolding at the hands of Putin.

 

And regarding Iran taking the US embassy, you're proving my point! The Iranians didn't "surround" the US embassy. They just wanted to be free of the threat of the US, and that's all the people of Ukraine want. And Russia invading is just as ugly as the US supporting saddams atrocities. The difference between the two is, Saddam invaded over 40 years ago (I actually wasn't alive back then, so unfortunately I had no say in the situation). And Russia is invading today. So let's use history to be a bit more critical of what people are doing today.

To tell you the truth, I didn't expect such a non intellectual 'cartoonish' reply from you

As I have stated, I think three times now in the this thread, there is a diversity of viewpoints in the Baltic States / Eastern Europe / Former States of USSR about joining NATO and being part of the 'West'. There are some who want to be 'Western Aligned', and some who want to be 'Eastern Aligned' i.e. Russia. 

But what you have failed to acknowledge so far, and what most of the Western Media has failed to acknowledge so far, although plenty of evidence has been presented for this, is that the NATO Countries, most prominently the US Foreign Policy Establishment, has 'put their thumb on the scale' and have been and are actively trying to 'tip the balance' in their favor. They have been using political subterfuge, such as the 'Orange' and other fake revolutions, election rigging, etc. I don't think the US does election rigging inside the US itself, it is too risky and there is no real evidence of it ever happening, but outside the US, they do it all the time in a long list of countries (Chile,Panama,Iraq,Ukraine,etc). 

 

Victoria Nuland and her underlings are the tip of this particular spear. They have been using all sorts of other 'dirty tricks' to try to portray the majority of Ukrainians as wanting to join the 'West'.

That is the crux of the dispute between Putin and the current Ukraine government. The fact that this has been going on for over a decade (i.e. the 'dirty tricks') has not even been acknowledged by the NATO alliance countries. So in that case, Putin had no hope of it ever stopping or becoming less, since it wasn't even being acknowledged that it is happening. So that is the other side of the story, which of course isn't reported in the 'West' and isn't acknowledged at all. Which is frustrating and stunningly ignorant and short sighted.

The above is why I think there is very little chance of this conflict ending any time soon. The military conflict in Ukraine may stop, but this conflict will continue to grow until both side acknowledge their part in creating it, and only then can it be ended. I'm not holding my breath. 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

23 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Yes, the "liberation" of the people of Mariupol. 

The suffering of the Ukrainian people is well understood. In the 1980s the Afghans were 'played' in a similar manner (to attack the Soviets).

Same recruitment of foreign fighters and the provision of hand launched missiles.

Didn't do the Afghans much good. But just as with the present war, the Russians got a bloody nose at limited cost to the West.

[Haji 2003]

Best not say anything

The first tweet is about Russian disabled soldiers getting medals.

So an American disabled soldiers pipes up about how these soldiers look sombre/angry whereas the mood was more upbeat when American disabled soldiers got their medals.

The obvious question to the American is whether he still feels proud of getting a medal in return for his disability knowing that the Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan ...

[Son of Placid]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:02 AM, Haji 2003 said:

The obvious question to the American is whether he still feels proud of getting a medal in return for his disability knowing that the Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan ...

Two answers to that question.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/13/afghanistan-veterans-war-taliban/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a-local-veteran-speaks-out-on-the-talibans-takeover-of-afghanistan/vi-AANp3mH

[EiE]

Where do you people receive your information from?
The mainstream media or neutral sources, which are significantly more difficult to come by.

[Son of Placid]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:44 PM, EiE said:

Where do you people receive your information from?
The mainstream media or neutral sources, which are significantly more difficult to come by.

No use getting info from mainstream, nor Google. Google prioritizes the narrative of the day.
Search engines, Duckduckgo, or quant will give a better list of all links related. Gab social, Telegram, etc don't censor like fb, instagram and twitter.

Depending on the CBC would mean all Canadians would believe Trudeau got a standing ovation for his Ukraine good, Russia bad speech in the EU. Sources show many walked out before his speech, 4 people got up and told him he wasn't welcome in no uncertain terms. The stupidity of it all. The video of "Please spare us your presence" was out before CBC aired their standing ovation story.

Getting a true source is even more difficult. The headline is usually exaggerated. There are various types of fake news. The far right, the far left, but also far left or right pretending to be far opposite to print incredible accusations that can be proven false, hopefully discrediting the far opposite. People don't see names. They don't look to see who people are, they barley make it through a 10 line paragraph, the attention is all in the headlines. 

See an article and not sure? Look for highlighted links to raw data, not just another article. If none, highlight, copy and paste key words in the search bar and see if other sources are telling a similar story. Search their articles for links to data. 100 links will tell the exact same story, consider them as one story. If there are no links in one there are no links in any.

CELL phone footage doesn't lie. CBC evening news showed Freedom convoy footage of 20-30 trucks and about 100 people cheering in -20C weather. Dude with a CELL phone showed them setting up. Then he turned around and showed thousands of people 30 - 40 meters deep, 1/2 a km to the overpass, packed with people too small to see. "Fringe minority" in front of the camera, vast majority behind it.

As for Ukraine. Media is handling it the same as they did covid or climate change. Many claims, few sources. Sources found to be false are ignored by the media, only brought to light by independents that mainstream tells us to ignore. 
 

 

[iCenozoic]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:41 AM, Haji 2003 said:

The suffering of the Ukrainian people is well understood. In the 1980s the Afghans were 'played' in a similar manner (to attack the Soviets).

Same recruitment of foreign fighters and the provision of hand launched missiles.

Didn't do the Afghans much good. But just as with the present war, the Russians got a bloody nose at limited cost to the West.

I don't view the collapse of the former Soviet union as merely a bloody nose. And I'm not sure that I would call the current invasion one that is causing a bloody nose either. Initially maybe, but it's progressively gotten ugly over the weeks. 

What I find interesting is that, if we do compare the Soviet invasion to the one of Ukraine today, it appears as though Russia hasn't learned it's lesson. You would think that failure in Afghanistan would be incentive for them not to invade a western ally.

Though as many have been saying, maybe Russia miscalculated the amount of resistance they would face.

But to be clear, I don't think the government of Ukraine is "being played" by the west to defend itself, thereby creating a humanitarian crises. Rather I would say that Russia is causing this crises given that they are the ones launching missiles from their own soil. If Ukraine was firing missiles at Moscow before the invasion, then maybe we could argue that it was the wests doing, but the opposite is true here where Russia is the one acting as the aggressor, contrary to the "we are being surrounded by NATO Nazis" propaganda. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Haji 2003]

2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

But to be clear, I don't think the government of Ukraine is "being played" by the west to defend itself, thereby creating a humanitarian crises. Rather I would say that Russia is causing this crises

After 2014 this could have gone a number of different ways:

1. The West accepts Russian hegemony/interests over Ukraine and accepts that it will never join NATO or the EU

or

2. The West lays down red lines, the crossing of which would e.g. involve a no-fly zone over Ukraine

Anything in the middle of those two extremes would implicitly accept that there would be mass Ukrainian civilian casualties/refugees. 

[Haji 2003]

 

[iCenozoic]

1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

After 2014 this could have gone a number of different ways:

1. The West accepts Russian hegemony/interests over Ukraine and accepts that it will never join NATO or the EU

or

2. The West lays down red lines, the crossing of which would e.g. involve a no-fly zone over Ukraine

Anything in the middle of those two extremes would implicitly accept that there would be mass Ukrainian civilian casualties/refugees. 

It isn't the European unions fault that Russia won't accept Ukraines interests on the EU and NATO. The west isn't making the decision for Ukraine nor the decisions made by Russia in response.

You're speaking as if western inaction on a no fly zone is a crime (which is necessary to prevent nuclear warfare), rather than the crime truly being created by the aggressive nature of Russia.

It's like saying that the west should either accept Russia's interest in slaughtering the governments of sovereign nations, purely out of an interest in construction an empire-like regional influence, or the west should respond with nuclear warfare. 

When in actuality, neither choice is acceptable. But, what is acceptable, is that the west arms Ukraine to fight for it's freedom and sanctions Russia to stop their activities, and let the regional conflict remain a regional conflict. No need for nuclear warfare, Russia's aggression results in its own demise which is of course good for Ukraine in the long term and is good for every free nation around Russia. 

The west would fully stop the Russian government if it could, but the truth is, it can't. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by iCenozoic

[Son of Placid]

2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

"we are being surrounded by NATO Nazis"

Not exactly what's happening. The nazis are already in Ukraine. Ukraine has been at war with itself since 2008. The Donbas region, and it's Russian population have constantly been bombed by Azov. This is what Putin originally said he would resolve. 

This would seem to be a repeat of Crimea.
Crimeans of Russian descent were being persecuted. Putin moved in. There was a referendum. They voted to be part of Russia.
140K people moved out of Crimea, 250K moved in. 
To look now, Crimea only suffered in their tourism sector, which has been picking up ever since.  Infrastructure has been improved, bridges were built, standard of living is increasing. People are not complaining.

Conflicting reports on everything. Russia is either backed off and regrouping, or slowly surrounding areas. Which is it?

While this is going on, (I have yet to see it myself), apparently the Hunter Biden laptop has emails proving Ukraine biolabs are real and US funded with the Biden family involvement. 


 

[iCenozoic]

4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Not exactly what's happening. The nazis are already in Ukraine. Ukraine has been at war with itself since 2008. The Donbas region, and it's Russian population have constantly been bombed by Azov. This is what Putin originally said he would resolve. 

This is like saying that Iran should destroy the government of Pakistan because there are shia in Pakistan being persecuted. Or maybe Iran should blow up the central government of Iraq and annex the southern portion of Iraq. Or overthrow the Afghan government to protect the persecuted shia in Afghanistan.

Your response seems to imply that you think this invasion is a good thing for the people of Ukraine.

If this were truly just a matter of liberating people in Mariopul, Then they wouldn't be starving hundreds of thousands of people and bombing maternity clinics. The vast majority of people in Mariupol also speak Russian. But the only people doing the persecuting are the Russians by blowing their city to pieces. Russia is not saving these people, russia is destroying them and claiming to be a savior for those who remain who may be sympathetic or otherwise converted out of fear. The elected governor of the very city That Russia claims it is saving, has called Russia occupiers and the Ukraine government defenders.  Meaning that Russia has clearly gone beyond just saving a minority of persecuted people, and has gone to the next level of wanting to destroy its neighbor for the sake of taking control of strategically valuable territory.

Putin doesn't care about some minority of people, he cares about Russia's position and influence in the world. And it appears as though he thinks that military action is the best way to establish that position on the world stage. 

In my opinion, the invasion is not about liberating anyone, it's about Russia wanting geopolitical control.

The whole story about fighting Nazis is all just imaginary propaganda. A story overplayed to convince people that blowing the entire country to pieces is a good thing.

People consistently bring up America and Israel and the West Bank, and now hunter Biden and biolabs (according to Fox news who hates Biden, as if the us hasn't partnered in biolabs in every other country on earth) only because they don't want to talk about the ugly truth of what Russia is doing right now. 

Yes, Russia wants you to think that the Zelenski Jewish nazi government secretly created covid-19 along side hunter biden, with the intent to take down Putin with a bioweapon. Or the simple answer is that Russia simply has poor leadership and they want geopolitical control by any means necessary no matter how many people they need to kill along the way.

Edited March 30, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

https://youtu.be/XpXLW1-okjE

 

Look at all these people being liberated from the control of the Jewish Nazi president zelensky.

Edited March 30, 2022 by iCenozoic

[علوي]

Western Media Reacts To Russian Muslims Protecting Civilians In Mariupol From Jewish Azov Battalion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlefHVHw_z0

 

[VoidVortex]

@iCenozoic What sources do you mainly consult in regards to Russia and Ukraine?

[Haji 2003]

BBC Newsnight 2018 coverage of Ukrainian Neo-Nazis 

 

 

[iCenozoic]

1 hour ago, VoidVortex said:

@iCenozoic What sources do you mainly consult in regards to Russia and Ukraine?

I tend to just observe video footage of a number of sources. It's no secret to anyone that people are fleeing Ukraine in the millions. This isn't some small operation where Russia is simply moving in to protect a few thousand people in Donbas. There's footage of cities, utterly decimated. And Russia hasn't taken kiev, they're simply shelling various cities into rubble. 

For example:

 

https://youtu.be/CwfyJGdFpSA

https://youtu.be/zsalNyHodCw

https://youtu.be/zguyTKU1swM

Some commenters verify the locations of their footage as well, such as here:

 

 

Sometimes there are thousands of people marching with Ukraine flags such as here:

https://youtu.be/hX2BLtETyGE

https://youtu.be/zSEN2Upa6aw

https://youtu.be/XpXLW1-okjE

https://youtu.be/n-h8xID0EmY

Here's one from Georgia:

https://youtu.be/TQsZIBHw2io

 

These obviously aren't staged events. 

And every nation has neo-Nazis, I'm not saying they don't exist in Ukraine, but what I am saying is that people would be fools to think that Russia's real intent in this invasion is to defeat some kind of Nazi threat. Otherwise Russia may as well invade every other nation that has Nazis in it's country, including America. There are Nazis in the US that stage marches here every year. Should Russia overthrow the US government to prevent a Nazi takeover? No, of course not. 

In fact, President Zelensky is Jewish. 

What's happening here is people who sympathize with Russia, are looking for an "out". They need a reason to have empathy and a reason to support what Putin is doing. And Putin needs a good sound-bite. He needs a moral high ground for this militarized bombardment and destruction of Ukraine.

What better high ground, than to claim that you're invading to fight Nazis? Everyone hates nazis, sounds good. It's just like that whole Hunter Biden bio weapon nonsense. Who ever came up with that nonsense? But it sounds great, maybe Putin is trying to stop the next covid-19 pandemic by destroying ukrainin super-biowrapons.

But surely nobody actually believes this. 

Russia has a long history of a patchy and aggressive relationship with it's Baltic neighbors. There's a lot of pride in the history of the Soviet Union, and people like Putin want to re-live that history. And that means stopping "western expansion".

But in reality, Putin is just putting his ego above the value of regional stability. He would rather threaten nuclear warfare, An occurrence that would render humanity extinct, he would rather this, than let Russia lose geopolitical influence in the region.

And that's just simply called poor leadership.

Every major city east of the capitol is being completely leveled. Because the people there are fighting back. The governor of Mariupol has publicly spoken on the destruction of the city, other governor's are being abducted. 

And I imagine there are thousands in the donbas region that wanted the invasion to occur. But for every 1 pro Russian, there are 1000 anti Russian in ukraine. And Russian casualties, and footage of the decimation of Russian units demonstrates it. And the extreme lengths Russia must go to capture these cities, all demonstrates it.

With the exception of Syria and maybe Iran, the entire region will despise Russia for generations to come for this invasion.

Edited March 30, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

I think I've said this before but, there is a time to condemn the actions of Israel. There's a time to condemn the actions of the US or of France or Germany...

But now, for the first time in shiachat history, this time it should be fair game for condemnation of Russia. 

[Son of Placid]

4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

This is like saying that Iran should destroy the government of Pakistan because there are shia in Pakistan being persecuted. Or maybe...

Not really. It's more if Pakistan had an Iranian population that was being persecuted...with bullets and bombs.

4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Your response seems to imply that you think this invasion is a good thing for the people of Ukraine.

Not going there either. Both the "free" world and the communist world have takeover policies. My sense is there was too much going on in Ukraine for Putin to handle. The writing was on the wall.

More than Fox news is reporting the Biden story now.
We've all seen Joe hustle the Ukraine government to fire the main investigator in the Burisma case using US federal funds. 

It would seem the US funds biolabs everywhere, China for sure, Ukraine, also for sure. 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

5 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Putin doesn't care about some minority of people, he cares about Russia's position and influence in the world. And it appears as though he thinks that military action is the best way to establish that position on the world stage. 

Of course he would care only about Russia's position and influence. How do you think empires are built? They are built on blood.

If he didn't invade, Russia's position would be threatened. This was inevitable. That's how things balance.

2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

But now, for the first time in shiachat history, this time it should be fair game for condemnation of Russia

Yeah I agree with that. Killing even one innocent is like killing the whole humanity. 

[Guest Guest 123]

I think it's important to note that: Explanation is not Justification.

Trying to explain why a party actions might have lead to an event doesn't have to mean that you're picking a side.

Here is a great video going into the differences: 

 

[Northwest]

On 3/26/2022 at 7:36 PM, Northwest said:

@iCenozoic

One can say the same about most people in the West.

The problem is that both the West and Ukraine, along with other parts of the globalised world, are ruled by corrupt and unrepresentative political and economic systems that engender apathy among the masses, who are mostly concerned about their daily lives and are easily corralled by “mainstream” institutions that reflect the interests of the moneyed powers that be.

More often than not inertia tends to dominate on all sides, allowing the elite to maintain the status quo.

In Ukraine only a small number of people actively support joining NATO and/or the EU, while a similarly small part actively supports the armed, pro-Russia forces.

Most Ukrainians are indifferent and simply care about their financial and familial prospects.

Those with ties to the West relocate to the West, while those with ties to Russia head to Russia. Still others stay in Ukraine for lack of means.

I think it is clear that the Western elites have more financial, military, and general influence than Russia and her allies do.

Just compare Western (NATO/U.S.) vs. non-Western (Russia et al.) military expenditure, overseas defence infrastructure (including declared and undeclared bases, special operations, biowarfare facilities, etc.), communications (Silicon Valley: Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google, etc.), linguistic influence (English), banking (IMF, World Bank, etc.), religion (Catholic/Protestant vs. Orthodox and other faiths), academic reach (Harvard, Oxford, et al.), NGOs (Council on Foreign Relations, Chatham House/RIIA, et al.), popular culture (Hollywood), personalities (celebrities, philanthropists, and public figures such as George Soros, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and so on), and other metrics.

Ask yourself the following: how many bases, allies, or “friends” does Russia have abroad, beyond her traditional sphere of influence? Exclude cases such as Belarus or Armenia. In the Western Hemisphere Russia has, at best, Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua. In the Eastern Russia can count on China, mainly due to shared interests vis-à-vis the West/NATO/U.S., as well as Iran to some degree, along with North Korea and a few other scattered actors. Russia does not have military bases beyond her immediate frontiers or peripheral neighbours such as Tajikistan, Armenia, Japan (Kuril Islands), Ukraine (Crimea), and so on. By contrast the West/NATO/U.S. have full-spectrum global reach and influence, including hundreds or even thousands of declared and/or undeclared concentrations of troops, proxy forces, and so on.

Even if this is the case, Russia is acting no differently from any other country that perceives a proximate threat to its security. Again, perception is important. The U.S. has long interfered in Latin America on the basis of its “Monroe Doctrine” and continues to do so to this day. The Spanish–American War (“remember the Maine!”), support for various dictatorships (such as Batista, Trujillo, Somoza, Pinochet, Stroessner, Videla, and so on), and attempts to oust “unfriendly” leaders such as Castro, Chávez, Morales, Ortega, and so on. No country or superpower has clean hands in regard to power politics, especially in its “near abroad” or “sphere of influence,” so neither the U.S. nor Russia can claim to have clean hands in this regard. The U.S. is just more blatantly hypocritical and dishonest about its actual motives, especially given the wide disparity between the power of the U.S. and that of Russia et al. Whatever Russia does in Ukraine is none of America’s business, just as whatever America does within her “sphere” should be none of Russia’s. But the West/NATO/U.S. has proven totally inconsistent in this regard.

Do you think the existence of “power elites” is a “conspiracy theory”? Is geopolitics a “fringe theory”?

Great powers have always coerced, bribed, or bullied weaker parties into joining “their” side.

The West/NATO/U.S. is no exception to this historical rule. Neither is Russia, obviously. But the West/NATO/U.S. is more powerful than Russia and is able to exert more informational influence (“control the narrative”) on a wider and more profound scale, regardless of which “side” is more “truthful.”

If you have money and influence, you can buy off and persuade a very large number of people, or even pressure them.

Neutrality would be in the interest of the Ukrainian people. But neither side wants that, especially the West, which is more powerful than Russia. One can also argue that the Russian response to date has been rather restrained. After the Western-backed forces took power in Kiev in 2014, Russia only seized Crimea and did not stage a full-fledged invasion of Ukraine. Even today Putin refrains from putting all his available forces into Ukraine and is clearly not eager to actually conquer the entire country.

@iCenozoic

Do you care to address any of the bolded points that I mentioned above? You didn’t actually respond to them.

Also, bear in mind that while I am critical of the Western response, I also believe that Putin is a corrupt oligarch. The Russian system is also unrepresentative of the Russian masses. In fact many “hardliners” inside Russia claim that Putin is actually being too “soft” on the West and is surrounded by oligarchs who want to make concessions to the West in order to evade sanctions on their assets abroad. (A good example is that of Roman Abramovich.) Many Russian “patriots” blame Putin for failing to take all of Ukraine and being willing to negotiate with the Ukrainian leadership. The Russian leadership does not care about ordinary Russians and is in cahoots with the Western oligarchs in order to divide the planet into “spheres of influence” while leaving major players such as Zionist Israel untouched. Both the Russian and Western elites want a long, drawn-out, inconclusive war so as to consolidate their respective positions in a world defined by bipolarity (Western unipolar vs. Russian multipolar orders) and the “Great Reset.” A prolonged, non-nuclear conflict also benefits wealthy insiders and serves the global elite’s plans for depopulation.

[VoidVortex]

@iCenozoic Your conclusions seems to be based on footage shown by western media. The sun is a notoriously terrible newspaper, and the rest are western. You need to see other perspectives. Have you checked out independent journalists, there are many independent journalists who aren't tied to governments. 

I have seen the official email of the hunter biden thing, so its real. It's also been admitted by western media that this is real.

Hunter Biden helped secure millions in funding for military biotech research program in Ukraine | Daily Mail Online

The above link is good enough proof for it, and especially read what the first email says. You can come to your own conclusions based on what you read. 

Generally Novara Media are a good source of information, its leftist, and I don't agree with everything it says but it is far better than mainstream news.

 

Democracy at its finest!

 

Zelensky being jewish is not an argument, whether or not nazis exist in Ukraine. Obama was black, and there was racism still rampant in parts of American society. 

[Guest Guest 123]

 

[iCenozoic]

23 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

@iCenozoic Your conclusions seems to be based on footage shown by western media. The sun is a notoriously terrible newspaper, and the rest are western. You need to see other perspectives. Have you checked out independent journalists, there are many independent journalists who aren't tied to governments. 

I have seen the official email of the hunter biden thing, so its real. It's also been admitted by western media that this is real.

Hunter Biden helped secure millions in funding for military biotech research program in Ukraine | Daily Mail Online

The above link is good enough proof for it, and especially read what the first email says. You can come to your own conclusions based on what you read. 

Generally Novara Media are a good source of information, its leftist, and I don't agree with everything it says but it is far better than mainstream news.

 

Democracy at its finest!

 

Zelensky being jewish is not an argument, whether or not nazis exist in Ukraine. Obama was black, and there was racism still rampant in parts of American society. 

There's a difference between studying viruses in an effort to create a bioweapon and studying viruses in an effort to mitigate dangers from bioweapons. 

The idea that hunter Biden, who has no influence in such topics of DOD military actions, would somehow team up with Ukraine in an effort to design a virus to attack Russia is the dumbest propaganda I've heard in awhile.

Alternatively, it's common knowledge that the US partakes in investigation of viruses as they pertain to pandemics and potential use as bioweapons, worldwide, including in China. Hence all the propaganda driven drama that the US had allegedly created the covid-19 virus. Which of course is all just absurd propaganda that lacks any actual evidence.

The bottom line is, the videos of massive protests against the Russian invasion don't lie. Sure there will be Russian sympathizers, but that just can't justify the destruction of endless cities throughout Ukraine.

And everyone here is well aware, as discussed throughout this thread, this is an ugly war. It wasn't some situation where Russia walked in and they were hailed as saviors. Russia has gotten major backlash, hence why their activities have been so disasterous for their army and for the various cities they're shelling into oblivion.

 

From the New York post:

"B&V had been commissioned in 2010 by the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency to build a lab in Odessa, to “enhance the government’s existing surveillance systems to detect, report and respond to bioterrorism attacks, epidemics and potential pandemics,” the company’s website said."

This was 12 years ago, it has nothing to do with Russia's invasion today. Such activities occuring in nations worldwide are well known to be occuring. And such things have nothing to do with designing weapons to fight Russia.

Edited April 1, 2022 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:08 PM, Son of Placid said:

Not really. It's more if Pakistan had an Iranian population that was being persecuted...with bullets and bombs.

Not going there either. Both the "free" world and the communist world have takeover policies. My sense is there was too much going on in Ukraine for Putin to handle. The writing was on the wall.

More than Fox news is reporting the Biden story now.
We've all seen Joe hustle the Ukraine government to fire the main investigator in the Burisma case using US federal funds. 

It would seem the US funds biolabs everywhere, China for sure, Ukraine, also for sure. 

Are you suggesting that there aren't Iranian civilians being persecuted in the nations of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Rewind to Saddams Iraq and his bombing of Shia populations and by this logic, maybe America did a good thing by invading Iraq?

Edited April 1, 2022 by iCenozoic