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Russian invasion of Ukraine [Official Thread]

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10 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I don't think it will be that easy for the Russians to do this. If they would have done it quietly, thru political subterfuge and assasination. like the usually do, I think it would have worked. To do it by invading another country is different. Now the US / European military credibility is on the line. I have a feeling this will turn into a full blown war in Eastern and Possibly Western Europe. Putin will probably take over Ukraine govt in a short time, but then he will have to deal with the backlash, guerilla warfare by Ukrainians and others as well as the economic fallout from sanctions. 

If China or the US gets involved directly, with troops, then it's WWIII. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected Putin to go so far with this. He is staking his entire future, and the entire future of Russia on this move. If it succeeds, we have the resurrection of the USSR. If it fails, Russia will be a third world country. 

Reports of mass surrender from the ukrainian army and russian army being at the doorsteps of kyiv says otherwise. Russia will easily take over ukraine like the taliban did to afghanistan.

Even western media is confirming it.

"If it succeeds, we have the resurrection of the USSR"

Russia is very conservative as of now, putin hates the soviet union, a communist state being born after this ukraine thing is extremely unlikley. No offence but anyone who thinks russia wants to revive the ussr is not looking at the situation fully because if russia wanted ukraine they would have taken the country 8 years ago in 2014.

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6 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

I'm comfortable with China taking Taiwan. I would not be surprised if they feel that they should be able to treat south east Asia the same way that the US treats Latin America. 

 

So because the US is a warmongering bullying country, you decide to support a genocidal dictatorship....

Like all those other infantile and ignorant people who thinks that just because the US is bad, China is good. Kinda like in primary school, where there is a big bully, and instead of taking a stance against all bullies, they instead support an even more psychotic and ruthless bully. That's a very black-and-white view of the world

Edited by Dubilex
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2 hours ago, Dubilex said:

So because the US is a warmongering bullying country, you decide to support a genocidal dictatorship....

Like all those other infantile and ignorant people who thinks that just because the US is bad, China is good. Kinda like in primary school, where there is a big bully, and instead of taking a stance against all bullies, they instead support an even more psychotic and ruthless bully. That's a very black-and-white view of the world

Muslims should not take any sides of non-muslims, this is their conflict.

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Muslims should not take any sides of non-muslims, this is their conflict.

Then how can you expect any non-muslims to oppose Israeli apartheid? You must call out oppression where you see it, regardless if muslims are involved or not

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1 hour ago, Uni Student said:

Then how can you expect any non-muslims to oppose Israeli apartheid? You must call out oppression where you see it, regardless if muslims are involved or not

We should not involve in non-Muslim war conquests, they themselves will define what is oppression or what is not and they themselves will destroy each other. 

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Muslims should not take any sides of non-muslims, this is their conflict.

As I posted above Ukraine sent soldiers for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and in comparison Putin sent soldiers to help keep Assad in power.

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Russia is with the Muslims. They are the people stated in the Quran known as Al Rum who will make an alliance with the Muslims against yajuj was majuj. Yajuj was majuj will flood every corner of the earth as we are seeing right now in western civilization; the great alliance NATO.

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18 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

I'm comfortable with China taking Taiwan. I would not be surprised if they feel that they should be able to treat south east Asia the same way that the US treats Latin America. 

 

The only problem with that is that , at least from what I have read and seen, the vast majority of the people in Taiwan don't want to be part of China. So China would need to take the area by force, which would result in many casualties, and possibly the outbreak of a regional or world war if other countries got involved. When I say 'the vast majority of people in Taiwan don't want to be part of China', this is based on the information I have. I've never been to Taiwan, so the information is second hand. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Ali said:

Russia is with the Muslims. They are the people stated in the Quran known as Al Rum who will make an alliance with the Muslims against yajuj was majuj. Yajuj was majuj will flood every corner of the earth as we are seeing right now in western civilization; the great alliance NATO.

Wrong. 'Al Rum' refers to the Romans. It could also be a metaphor, referring to any people who take up the Romans system of empire building. That could be Russia, but it could also refer to many other countries, like the US, Britain, China, etc, in the metaphorical sense. Russia is not with the Muslims. They sometimes help them when it is in their strategic interest to do so, like in Syria because of their Naval base there, but they are not 'with' the Muslims in any real sense. Not currently. What will happen in the future, only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows. We should act based on reality, how it is on the ground today, not based on speculation about what may or may not happen in the future. 

Yahjuj wa Mahjuj is a term which is not clear in who it refers to. There are many different tafasir of this term. There is no consensus amoung the Ulema. 

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10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Muslims should not take any sides of non-muslims, this is their conflict.

We should always care, and we should always support, and when we can we should protect those who are oppressed, no matter their beliefs and no matter the beliefs of the oppressors. 

I don't know enough about Ukraine to say much, but I do know that neither Russia nor the United States should be making decisions regarding their sovereignty. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

The only problem with that is that , at least from what I have read and seen, the vast majority of the people in Taiwan don't want to be part of China. So China would need to take the area by force, which would result in many casualties, and possibly the outbreak of a regional or world war if other countries got involved. When I say 'the vast majority of people in Taiwan don't want to be part of China', this is based on the information I have. I've never been to Taiwan, so the information is second hand. 

I've been both in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Taiwan is a vibrant democratic country located in a strategically important area. It would be in everyone's interest if Taiwan remained that way.  It's just strange though, most sunnis have woken up to the true nature of China, they see the genocide going on in Xinjiang. While many shiites still think China is their friend and swallows their propaganda

Edited by Dubilex
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I was checking on google and it’s says, according to Ukraine they killed more than 1.8k Russians, who are these Russians tho? The soldiers?

 

edit:- ok now it’s say it’s 800+, look like someone is playing.

edit 2:- ok again they edited it and said 1.8k killed and 2.8k casualties. I’m really confused.

Edited by Diaz
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1 hour ago, Dubilex said:

While many shiites still think China is their friend and swallows their propaganda

If it wasn't for China, it would have been game over for Iran quite some time ago.

And there's many more times Iranians than people living in Xinjiang.

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16 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

And there's many more times Iranians than people living in Xinjiang.

What’s that suppose to mean? 

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11 minutes ago, Diaz said:

What’s that suppose to mean?

People keep going on about the harsh conditions facing the Uyghurs - and yes they are harsh. But the population is about 13 million. American sanctions against Iran affect about 80 million people.

So the Chinese run re-education classes? The West sends out Christian missionaries, streams anti-Islamic television channels and facilitates emigration of Muslims claiming to be Christian or gay.

 

17 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Putin is a dictator. Chinese and North Korean goverments are dictators, too.

Our interest is in a multi-polar world that keeps all major powers a bit more honest than they would be if it were a unipolar world.

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2 hours ago, Dubilex said:

I've been both in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Taiwan is a vibrant democratic country located in a strategically important area. It would be in everyone's interest if Taiwan remained that way.  It's just strange though, most sunnis have woken up to the true nature of China, they see the genocide going on in Xinjiang. While many shiites still think China is their friend and swallows their propaganda

There is no Shia here that I know of that thinks 'China' is our friend. That is a statement with no or very little evidence. Yes, China did buy some oil from Iran, and took a risk in doing that because Iran is currently under sanctions. That was a calculated risk based on economic gain for them, meaning they could get the oil slightly cheaper that way and they weren't that worried about the US / EU sanctioning them for doing business with Iran because a large part of the US / EU economy depends on Chinese imports. So because they took this calculated risk, and it payed off for them in terms of $$, it doesn't mean anyone, even Iran, believes that China is their 'friend'. Friendship is more than just mutually beneficial economic transactions. 

In the current global economy, countries have no choice but to deal with other countries, even if they find some of those countries policies objectionable. This is the reality that we live in. All Muslim countries, including majority Sunni countries like Egypt, Hijaz, Khalej, etc, do the same thing. We have a boycott against doing business with Israel because per our Fiqh, we are in an active state of war with that country. Other than countries we are in an active state of war with, we can do business. Doesn't mean were 'friends'. If tommorow, it wasn't economically beneficial for Iran to do business with China, they would stop. BTW, I have stated before that Iran should be more aggressive in bringing up the issue of the Uyghur genocide that is going on, and everyone in the world knows that it is going on. Imam Khomeni's (رضي الله عنه) slogan, which I'm sure you have heard before is 'Neither East nor West'. In other words, we shouldn't be 'friends' with the global powers of the East (China,Russia) or the West(US,EU,NATO,etc). Imam Khameni has followed that policy, so has Sayyid Sistani. These are the two main leaders of the global Shia community currently. 

 

BTW, this is why, as others have said, we should take a neutral stance in this conflict. We want minimum loss of life and disruption, but other than that, we have no stake in it. The current Ukrainian government under Zalinsky is a US/ EU puppet government, and on the other side is Russia (explained above). So as Muslims, and as Shia, we have no stake in the outcome, other than, like I said above, humanitarian stake (minimum loss of life and disruption on both sides, and a quick restoration of peace to the area). 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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12 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

There is no Shia here that I know of that thinks 'China' is our friend. That is a statement with no or very little evidence. Yes, China did buy some oil from Iran, and took a risk in doing that because Iran is currently under sanctions. That was a calculated risk based on economic gain for them, meaning they could get the oil slightly cheaper that way and they weren't that worried about the US / EU sanctioning them for doing business with Iran because a large part of the US / EU economy depends on Chinese imports. So because they took this calculated risk, and it payed off for them in terms of $$, it doesn't mean anyone, even Iran, believes that China is their 'friend'. Friendship is more than just mutually beneficial economic transactions. 

In the current global economy, countries have no choice but to deal with other countries, even if they find some of those countries policies objectionable. This is the reality that we live in. All Muslim countries, including majority Sunni countries like Egypt, Hijaz, Khalej, etc, do the same thing. We have a boycott against doing business with Israel because per our Fiqh, we are in an active state of war with that country. Other than countries we are in an active state of war with, we can do business. Doesn't mean were 'friends'. If tommorow, it wasn't economically beneficial for Iran to do business with China, they would stop. BTW, I have stated before that Iran should be more aggressive in bringing up the issue of the Uyghur genocide that is going on, and everyone in the world knows that it is going on. Imam Khomeni's (رضي الله عنه) slogan, which I'm sure you have heard before is 'Neither East nor West'. In other words, we shouldn't be 'friends' with the global powers of the East (China,Russia) or the West(US,EU,NATO,etc). Imam Khameni has followed that policy, so has Sayyid Sistani. These are the two main leaders of the global Shia community currently. 

 

I didn't mean friend as in Iran's friend. I meant as an ally to the ummah. A lot of shiites still think that China is an ally to the Ummah and subsequently goes on to spew ignorant propaganda from China. I can only feel sorry for those ignorant people. They are too jahel and childish. They think that the US being a bully means that China is good. A very black and white view of the world. Pretty childish. While most sunnis have moved on from the Muslim Brotherhood, shiites still worship the MB. Probably Shariati's Marxist ideology still lingering

It's like a bully in the schoolyard. Instead of standing up to bullies, like Islam says, many people instead choose to support an even more psychotic and ruthless bully just because they hate the first bully so much. Just look at how China treats the other countries in South East Asia

Edited by Dubilex
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4 hours ago, notme said:

We should always care, and we should always support, and when we can we should protect those who are oppressed, no matter their beliefs and no matter the beliefs of the oppressors. 

I don't know enough about Ukraine to say much, but I do know that neither Russia nor the United States should be making decisions regarding their sovereignty. 

Both of them are horrible who together will bring others to pointless war. In this scale I don’t support it. These are commons wars like in past history fighting between each other and nothing but destruction and fasad is brought to land.

I would be not suprised if suddenly others countries get involved and then Russia attacks them then many will curse Russia and Ukraine. But I pray nothing like that would happen.

Edited by Abu Nur
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1 hour ago, Dubilex said:

 

I didn't mean friend as in Iran's friend. I meant as an ally to the ummah. A lot of shiites still think that China is an ally to the Ummah and subsequently goes on to spew ignorant propaganda from China. I can only feel sorry for those ignorant people. They are too jahel and childish. They think that the US being a bully means that China is good. A very black and white view of the world. Pretty childish. While most sunnis have moved on from the Muslim Brotherhood, shiites still worship the MB. Probably Shariati's Marxist ideology still lingering

It's like a bully in the schoolyard. Instead of standing up to bullies, like Islam says, many people instead choose to support an even more psychotic and ruthless bully just because they hate the first bully so much. Just look at how China treats the other countries in South East Asia

OK. Fair enough. BTW, I don't know which Shias you hang around, but I know quite a few. I've never heard one of them express anything close to 'worship' for the Muslim Brotherhood. The ones under 50 don't even know who they are. The ones over 50 barely mention them. 

If you are talking about Hamas, specifically, yes many Shia do like them and what they are doing against Israel in Palestine. I wouldn't call that 'worship'. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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2 hours ago, Dubilex said:

 

I didn't mean friend as in Iran's friend. I meant as an ally to the ummah. A lot of shiites still think that China is an ally to the Ummah and subsequently goes on to spew ignorant propaganda from China. I can only feel sorry for those ignorant people. They are too jahel and childish. They think that the US being a bully means that China is good. A very black and white view of the world. Pretty childish. While most sunnis have moved on from the Muslim Brotherhood, shiites still worship the MB. Probably Shariati's Marxist ideology still lingering

It's like a bully in the schoolyard. Instead of standing up to bullies, like Islam says, many people instead choose to support an even more psychotic and ruthless bully just because they hate the first bully so much. Just look at how China treats the other countries in South East Asia

Worship lol, this shows how you don't even know the basic definition of worship and how easily you apply it to shias, doing unidirectional takfir, thus really making you are the one with sick beliefs. This can been seen in many of your previous posts. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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Many factors:

- Russia doesn't want Nato getting closer, would US like it if Russia had bases in Canada?

- Russia wants access to the Black Sea, any coastline is good for economy and strategy

- Many Ukranians are Russians and want to be part of Russia despite what western media want's you to believe

- Gas lines

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Both of them are horrible who together will bring others to pointless war. In this scale I don’t support it. These are commons wars like in past history fighting between each other and nothing but destruction and fasad is brought to land.

I would be not suprised if suddenly others countries get involved and then Russia attacks them then many will curse Russia and Ukraine. But I pray nothing like that would happen.

I  think Putin wants to end the war now, after showing what a 'man' he is. This was a war that was about Putin's ego, in case anyone was wondering about that. The problem is that if he does that, Zalinsky will be empowered, and will become more popular than before. So I think this will go on for a while, but I doubt other countries will get involved. That is what it's looking like at the moment. 

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On 2/24/2022 at 4:49 AM, Haji 2003 said:

I think the Russians will be content with installing a puppet regime and if there is resistance having a civil war in Ukraine. Get ready for the MSM to dust off the 'freedom fighter' playbook.

If the people are hardcore nationalists who want a free Ukraine, I'd say that a freedom fighter narrative sounds appropriate in light of a Russian mass invasion involving 150k amassed troops, jets and tanks. At the end of the day, their choices and freedoms are being limited by their larger neighbor.

What else is a nation but one of freedom fighters if it's invaded by another nation 10x it's size that has nuclear weapons?

Edited by iCenozoic
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8 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

If it wasn't for China, it would have been game over for Iran quite some time ago.

If a Shia government is not able to exist without the support of a tyrannical, Yazid-like regime, then it is better off not existing at all. 

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On 2/24/2022 at 5:20 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I don't think it will be that easy for the Russians to do this. If they would have done it quietly, thru political subterfuge and assasination. like the usually do, I think it would have worked. To do it by invading another country is different. Now the US / European military credibility is on the line. I have a feeling this will turn into a full blown war in Eastern and Possibly Western Europe. Putin will probably take over Ukraine govt in a short time, but then he will have to deal with the backlash, guerilla warfare by Ukrainians and others as well as the economic fallout from sanctions. 

If China or the US gets involved directly, with troops, then it's WWIII. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected Putin to go so far with this. He is staking his entire future, and the entire future of Russia on this move. If it succeeds, we have the resurrection of the USSR. If it fails, Russia will be a third world country. 

I think this is a bit exaggerated. I don't think the west cares enough about Ukraine to turn things into WW3. And I don't see why Russia won't be successful in destroying it's neighbor while everyone sits back and watches with a few slaps on the wrist. 

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Wars are fought for economic gain, and to a lesser extent, political gain.

Ukraine possesses not only vast natural resources, but contains the pipelines and routes that Russia uses to ship oil and natural gas to Europe --it is the corridor of commerce. Putin simply could not let that fall into the control of his perceived enemies. He wants control

Obviously, he did not want American arms in Ukraine, and certainly didn't want NATO membership extended to that country, but such membership was highly unlikely. The military aspect was a smoke screen for the real motivations Putin had.

Iran should not consider Putin a reliable partner, and certainly not an ally. He is a snake and a kleptocrat. A dime-store dictator who is motivated by self interest. He has nothing but disdain and contempt for Muslims. A man that will unleash his military on a nation of fellow Slavs for economic in political gain is an evil man.

 

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Iran should not consider Putin a reliable partner, and certainly not an ally. He is a snake and a kleptocrat. A dime-store dictator who is motivated by self interest. He has nothing but disdain and contempt for Muslims. 

That is true, we really have no allies except our Muslim nations, and unfortunality they have already sold thmselves to devil.

Edited by Abu Nur
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The only ally Muslims have in the geopolitical sense are the Axis Of Resistance.

It would be best to stay neutral on the issue, and give westerners a taste of their own medicine by our silence.

Of course, I pray to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the safety of all innocents there, especially for our Shia Muslim and other Muslim ummah there. After all, the Ukrainian Russian war going on right now is just a war between two oligarchs.

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13 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

People keep going on about the harsh conditions facing the Uyghurs - and yes they are harsh. But the population is about 13 million. American sanctions against Iran affect about 80 million people.

So the Chinese run re-education classes? The West sends out Christian missionaries, streams anti-Islamic television channels and facilitates emigration of Muslims claiming to be Christian or gay.

 

Our interest is in a multi-polar world that keeps all major powers a bit more honest than they would be if it were a unipolar world.

Anti Islamic television channels? Like what, TLC where gay men remodel homes? What are you referring to here? The US has many Islamic communities that individually stream their own activities all across the country. 

Edited by iCenozoic
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