Russian invasion of Ukraine [Official Thread]

[Haji 2003]

Going to happen or not going to happen. A good thing or a bad thing.

What do people think?

[Guest Hussein guest]

4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Going to happen or not going to happen. A good thing or a bad thing.

What do people think?

See for your self: 

 

[Abu Nur]

8 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Going to happen or not going to happen. A good thing or a bad thing.

What do people think?

Bad thing because everyone will suffer from it. Russia is doing what any sensible country will do if your greatest enemy is coming to be next to your large borders, to prevent it to happen. It is also economically too much for russia to defend such an large border. So war will surely happen if Nato accept Ukraine. It will also happen if nato delays it because it means Ukraine will get stronger day by day and Russia will not allow it to happen. 

Edited February 7 by Abu Nur

[Meedy]

I hope it does not happen but NATO and US are building up troops. Also they're using mainstream media to fool people, they'll do some killing in ukrain and blame it on russia. This further fools people. 

Weird that after collapse of Afghanistan and the near end of pandemic - without any break, The US and NATO are straight into it.  The World can't catch a break from US and NATO :| 

[Haji 2003]

Interesting analysis, concludes as follows:

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Therefore, the amassing of troops along the Russia-Ukraine border is not targeting Kyiv, but the West. Moscow wants to force Western countries to finally sit down for negotiations on issues of European security. And this strategy seems to be working. Since 1991, this is the first time the West has engaged seriously with Russia to discuss European security.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/2/9/no-russia-will-not-invade-ukraine

[layman]

If Russia feels that her security is compromised and there is no guarantee for the stopping of NATO expansion eastward, a limited war will occur.  Russia has to guarantee it by force if negotiations failed.  It all depends on Kiev to tell NATO to stop. If politicians in Ukraine sold their national interest to NATO, then a limited war will very likely to occur.

[Eddie Mecca]

When the Soviets attempted to deploy ballistic missiles to Cuba in '62 how did the US respond? Why the double standard when NATO attempts to encircle Moscow? Delusional nincompoops in Washington create a situation then panic when the Kremlin responses proportionally and strategically...Kiev is already a NATO-controlled client state by de facto...meaning that the capitol of Russia is now less than 300 miles from NATO striking distance (Saint Petersburg less than 100 miles away).

[Haji 2003]

Joint statement by Russia and China

 

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Joint Statement of the Russian Federation and the People’s Republic of China on the International Relations Entering a New Era and the Global Sustainable Development

http://en.kremlin.ru/supplement/5770

 

Here's an extract, which deals with the issue of democracy head on:

Quote

The sides believe that democracy is a means of citizens' participation in the government of their country with the view to improving the well-being of population and implementing the principle of popular government. Democracy is exercised in all spheres of public life as part of a nation-wide process and reflects the interests of all the people, its will, guarantees its rights, meets its needs and protects its interests. There is no one-size-fits-all template to guide countries in establishing democracy. A nation can choose such forms and methods of implementing democracy that would best suit its particular state, based on its social and political system, its historical background, traditions and unique cultural characteristics. It is only up to the people of the country to decide whether their State is a democratic one.

 

And the following bit addresses issue where Russia and China have similar concerns, I have put some text into bold.

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The sides believe that certain States, military and political alliances and coalitions seek to obtain, directly or indirectly, unilateral military advantages to the detriment of the security of others, including by employing unfair competition practices, intensify geopolitical rivalry, fuel antagonism and confrontation, and seriously undermine the international security order and global strategic stability. The sides oppose further enlargement of NATO and call on the North Atlantic Alliance to abandon its ideologized cold war approaches, to respect the sovereignty, security and interests of other countries, the diversity of their civilizational, cultural and historical backgrounds, and to exercise a fair and objective attitude towards the peaceful development of other States. The sides stand against the formation of closed bloc structures and opposing camps in the Asia-Pacific region and remain highly vigilant about the negative impact of the United States' Indo-Pacific strategy on peace and stability in the region. Russia and China have made consistent efforts to build an equitable, open and inclusive security system in the Asia-Pacific Region (APR) that is not directed against third countries and that promotes peace, stability and prosperity.

 

[Diaz]

Tbh I am really worried, my best friend lives in Ukraine so I hope there will be no war. 

[Haji 2003]

Noam Chomsky weighs in. Looking at the comment that follows the Chomsky video,I find this line of argument problematic. If NATO is a defensive organisation and Russia the aggressor, how come NATO keeps expanding and the Russian empire keeps contracting.

 

[Haji 2003]

 

[Uni Student]

5 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

If NATO is a defensive organisation and Russia the aggressor, how come NATO keeps expanding and the Russian empire keeps contracting.

While I am in no way pro-American/NATO, in my opinion it is entirely understandable and justifiable that Eastern Europe is keen on joining NATO given that historically Russia has been a brutal aggressor in their history textbooks. 

[iCenozoic]

Seems like another case of people being supplied weapons and cash on both sides, and rather than having civil discussions, they've entered into endless violence. 

There are people in Ukraine that want Russia to reclaim the country. There are others in Ukraine that want to remain independent and free from Russian influence. Western nations arm one side, Russia arms the other. 

I do find it interesting that Ukraine disarmed it's nuclear arsenal with the understanding that Russia would help protect it's sovereignty. I bet they wish they still had those weapons.

I think that Ukraine ought to be able to remain independent and that an invasion of the country would undermine it's sovereignty as a free nation. 

And I get the impression that Russia is an exceptionally nationalist country that takes a lot of pride in it's Soviet union glory days. Russia invaded Georgia not too long ago, and Crimea as well. It wouldn't surprise me if Russia would re-conquer every last one of those eastern european countries if it had the opportunity to, and it likely wouldn't stop there. And just like in Georgia, Russia could continue to capitalize on separatist related violence by sending in their army under the pretext that they are there to establish peace.

The above said, it seems more righteous to me, that big nations should militarily stay out of the business of little nations and should let those little nations resolve their own dilemmas. Though unfortunately Russia doesn't play by those rules, and neither does America. And as we all know, these circumstances usually don't end well for those small nations caught in the middle.

Edited February 21 by iCenozoic

[Haji 2003]

8 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Though unfortunately Russia doesn't play by those rules

In another part of the world one of the justifications for taking over someone else's land are the accounts of the horrors visited on them in WWII by the Germans and fascists in various European countries ... Russian casualties in the same war were a degree of magnitude higher (in absolute terms), but they aren't allowed to use the same argument?

[Uni Student]

20 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Russian casualties in the same war were a degree of magnitude higher (in absolute terms), but they aren't allowed to use the same argument?

Due mainly to their human wave tactics and disregard for their own population

[Dubilex]

There is no good or bad guy in this conflict. All sides of the conflict are equally bad. I'm just scared that China will use this diversion to invade Taiwan

[123SlaveOfAllah]

9Well Vladmir Putin has launched a military operation on Ukraine. Not sure about a full scale invasion but explosions heard over Kyiv. 

https://indianexpress.com/article/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-news-live-updates-putin-biden-united-states-seperatists-7788299/

[Haji 2003]

1 hour ago, 123SlaveOfAllah said:

9Well Vladmir Putin has launched a military operation on Ukraine. Not sure about a full scale invasion but explosions heard over Kyiv. 

https://indianexpress.com/article/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-news-live-updates-putin-biden-united-states-seperatists-7788299/

 

Well a few hours later this is how UK media are reporting it:

 

[Haji 2003]

As I post this there is an interesting livestream on youtube with the sort if people who say things like "that looks like a Russian T80 and not a Ukrainian T60".

 

[Hameedeh]

FYI, I did not click on any links, but the news is that reporters in the cities of Kyiv and Kharkiv have heard explosions after Putin announced military action would be taken. 

ABC News (radio news in the US) said 5 Russian planes were shot down. 

[Haji 2003]

This is from an Iranian oil commentator:

 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

^ can you please translate this.

Western media is a whole circus.

Anyways during ww2 allies had a similar stance with Poland. 

Russia is targeting air and  military bases in Ukraine ->Russia-Ukraine crisis LIVE news: Russian ground forces cross into Ukraine, take control of two towns in Luhansk 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

QUnless NATO intervenes kyiv will fall . I think putin will annex Crimea and Donbass while the rest of Ukraine will be converted into neutral/pro russia state like Belarus.

Russia has total military superiorty. Russia Vs Ukraine Military Power: रूस के खिलाफ कितनी देर टिकेगा यूक्रेन? जानिए दोनों सेनाओं की ताकत 

[Meedy]

   Again US/NATO will do anything to ruin the world, regardless of how many billions of people get killed. I hope US/Nato get annhilated and their armies get destroyed. I find it frustrating that so many many people believe in what West Media tells them. 

[123SlaveOfAllah]

Well almost all rulers are zalim. No true just state will be formed till advent of the Imam (ajtf).

US/NATO leadership is stupid. These are just like chamberlain from 1938. While Putin has been a kgb agent and his invasion is a calculated one.

Maybe China and NK will take advantage of this especially in Taiwan and SK

[Haji 2003]

1 hour ago, 123SlaveOfAllah said:

^ can you please translate this.

 

This is the translation. I agree with it.

Quote

This world is not the beginning of the third world war. However, Putin's attack on Ukraine pushed Brent oil prices to $ 4. Russia's power in the energy market has given it the upper hand in the forthcoming international equations. Russia supplies 7% of Europe's gas and 1.5%

 

40 minutes ago, 123SlaveOfAllah said:

Maybe China and NK will take advantage of this especially in Taiwan and SK

Yes, I think life became a bit more uncertain for Taiwan.

[Haji 2003]

Here's someone else I like (don't agree with him on everything though:

 

[Haji 2003]

I think the Russians will be content with installing a puppet regime and if there is resistance having a civil war in Ukraine. Get ready for the MSM to dust off the 'freedom fighter' playbook.

[Abu Hadi]

I don't think it will be that easy for the Russians to do this. If they would have done it quietly, thru political subterfuge and assasination. like the usually do, I think it would have worked. To do it by invading another country is different. Now the US / European military credibility is on the line. I have a feeling this will turn into a full blown war in Eastern and Possibly Western Europe. Putin will probably take over Ukraine govt in a short time, but then he will have to deal with the backlash, guerilla warfare by Ukrainians and others as well as the economic fallout from sanctions. 

If China or the US gets involved directly, with troops, then it's WWIII. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected Putin to go so far with this. He is staking his entire future, and the entire future of Russia on this move. If it succeeds, we have the resurrection of the USSR. If it fails, Russia will be a third world country. 

Edited February 24 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Now the US / European military credibility is on the line. I have a feeling this will turn into a full blown war in Eastern and Possibly Western Europe.

I disagree.

The west knows that while it can put up a good show against poorly armed Arabs, the body bags would be way greater against the Russians.

Plus and this is based on limited evidence, I believe the average American GI who is quite happy blasting 'rag heads' actually quite likes Putin.

[Hameedeh]

Reports say there are long lines of people at banks and pharmacies. People filling up jugs of water.

[Hameedeh]

Poland is expecting 1 million people to cross their borders. 

President Biden is expected to make comments 2 hours from now. 

[Abu Hadi]

2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

I disagree.

The west knows that while it can put up a good show against poorly armed Arabs, the body bags would be way greater against the Russians.

Plus and this is based on limited evidence, I believe the average American GI who is quite happy blasting 'rag heads' actually quite likes Putin.

I don't think US / EU / NATO troops will get involved, but I think that many other Eastern European Countries will get involved. When I say 'credibility', I mean that if the US / EU / NATO just 'looked the other way' this time, like they did when Putin invaded Crimea, they know that it would open up a Pandora's box throughout the world. China might take Taiwan and all of South China Sea area by force. This is the main concern if they look the other way on this. 

I honestly think the Ukrainian President, Zalinsky is not that smart. If he would have done what past Ukranian Presidents had done, bow to Russia in public then do stuff behind the scenes with EU there wouldn't be a war right now. He didn't 'get it'. Zalinsky was openly talking about joining NATO, which forced Putin to respond. I think his response went way too far, and I was expecting something less than this. 

If American's dont' think Putin has a point, look what the US did when Cuba became friendly with the USSR after the Cuban Revolution in the 1950s. The US tried to invade Cuba three separate times, tried to assasinate Castro, probably 10s of times, and almost started a Nuclear War over it. So whatever Putin is doing, the US has also done in the recent past, so they shouldn't be too surprised or 'shocked' about it. How much has Cuba suffered in the last 70 years because of their 'friendship' with a US enemy ? If you know a Cuban, ask them. 

Edited February 24 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

2 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

China might take Taiwan and all of South China Sea area by force. This is the main concern if they look the other way on this.

I'm comfortable with China taking Taiwan. I would not be surprised if they feel that they should be able to treat south east Asia the same way that the US treats Latin America. 

 

[Haji 2003]

Anti war protest in St. Petersburg. It will be interesting to see how widespread these are. Of course just as the Russians have their troll farms, the West will have been seeding individuals and groups for an occasion such as this.