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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hadith without biographies

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How can one authenticate hadith without relying on biographies of narraters ?

And how can we know about the authenticity of biographies until we trust their biographer / compiler ?

So is it fair to say that  bigger question than authenticity of isnad of hadith is how reliable are the biographies of the narraters ?

So what are the "sahih" biography compilations for Sunnis and shia?

Thanks 

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There is no limit to skepticism and one can always raise questions about non empirical things. Apparently it seems like a circular argument as you mentioned but deep down its not so circular. Hadith critics in Sunnis like Bukhari who has a three volume compilation (Tareekh al kabir , Tareekh ausat , Tareekh Sagheer) on biographies of narrators have a firm standing and validation of personal character with in the Sunni discourse of that era. Same goes for Darqutni , Yahya ibn Ma'een , Ibn al Jawzi etc. Secondly , in most casez the early Muhadithoon have agreed on the stature of a certain narrator despite their geographic differences adding objectivity to the siyar and Rijal discourse. As far as Shia Siyar wa Rijal , I am not well versed in it but after going through a few basic books like Rijal Kashi and Rijal Najashi, the science is not as evolved as in the Sunnis. The quantity and quality of information given about the Rijal in these books is by far too low when compared with Sunni compilations.

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Also consider the fact that mutaqadimoon scholars of Sunnis like Al Dhahabi and Ibn Hajjar have further defrosted and expanded the hadith sciences in Sunnis by compiling biographies of narrators from early sources in voluminous books like Siyar alam unnubala and Tehdhib etc. They have simplified the stuff by collecting sayings of early muhadithoon about individual narrators in one place. 

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18 hours ago, Leibniz said:

in most casez the early Muhadithoon have agreed on the stature of a certain narrator despite their geographic differences adding objectivity to the siyar and Rijal discourse. As far as Shia Siyar wa Rijal , I am not well versed in it but after going through a few basic books like Rijal Kashi and Rijal Najashi, the science is not as evolved as in the Sunnis. The quantity and quality of information given about the Rijal in these books is by far too low when compared with Sunni compilations.

Salam this is typical  rhetoric  of Wahabists  & Salafist for idolizing their narrators & their "siyar and Rijal discourse" & humilation  of Shia scholars  & narrators Rijal just for calling Shia narrators as weak persons with low credibility  in hope of not accepting  facts in Shia narrations  & calling every Shia narrations  & narrators as weak & untrustworthy .

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18 hours ago, Leibniz said:

in most casez the early Muhadithoon have agreed on the stature of a certain narrator despite their geographic differences adding objectivity to the siyar and Rijal discourse. As far as Shia Siyar wa Rijal , I am not well versed in it but after going through a few basic books like Rijal Kashi and Rijal Najashi, the science is not as evolved as in the Sunnis. The quantity and quality of information given about the Rijal in these books is by far too low when compared with Sunni compilations.

Salam this is typical  rhetoric  of Wahabists  & Salafist for idolizing their narrators & their "siyar and Rijal discourse" & humilation  of Shia scholars  & narrators Rijal just for calling Shia narrators as weak persons with low credibility  in hope of not accepting  facts in Shia narrations  & calling every Shia narrations  & narrators as weak & untrustworthy because backbone  of credibility  all of Sunni narrators is based on their support from tyrants of cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids but on the other hand credibility  of Shia narrators  is based on supporting  of Quran & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which every Shia narrator who has received  more endorsement  from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is more trustworthy  but in contrast to Shis narrators credibility  of Sunni narrator is based on their support  from tyrants  which any Sunni narrator which has justified cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids has more credibility in Sunni Rijal which when a sunni narrator has confirmed a Shia narration then he has losen much of his credibility .

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is typical  rhetoric  of Wahabists  & Salafist for idolizing their narrators & their "siyar and Rijal discourse" & humilation  of Shia scholars  & narrators Rijal just for calling Shia narrators as weak persons with low credibility  in hope of not accepting  facts in Shia narrations  & calling every Shia narrations  & narrators as weak & untrustworthy because backbone  of credibility  all of Sunni narrators is based on their support from tyrants of cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids but on the other hand credibility  of Shia narrators  is based on supporting  of Quran & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which every Shia narrator who has received  more endorsement  from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is more trustworthy  but in contrast to Shis narrators credibility  of Sunni narrator is based on their support  from tyrants  which any Sunni narrator which has justified cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids has more credibility in Sunni Rijal which when a sunni narrator has confirmed a Shia narration then he has losen much of his credibility .

Thanks for pointing me out as Wahabi. You are a wise man. Your comments regarding narrators are really enlightening. I feel more educated now. I wish one day you pick Ikhtiyar marifat rijal and tell us which of the narrators have the tawtheeq of which of the Imams and how and where is it documented. You shall do the world a service. 

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On 1/15/2022 at 5:57 AM, Leibniz said:

There is no limit to skepticism and one can always raise questions about non empirical things. Apparently it seems like a circular argument as you mentioned but deep down its not so circular. Hadith critics in Sunnis like Bukhari who has a three volume compilation (Tareekh al kabir , Tareekh ausat , Tareekh Sagheer) on biographies of narrators have a firm standing and validation of personal character with in the Sunni discourse of that era. Same goes for Darqutni , Yahya ibn Ma'een , Ibn al Jawzi etc. Secondly , in most casez the early Muhadithoon have agreed on the stature of a certain narrator despite their geographic differences adding objectivity to the siyar and Rijal discourse. As far as Shia Siyar wa Rijal , I am not well versed in it but after going through a few basic books like Rijal Kashi and Rijal Najashi, the science is not as evolved as in the Sunnis. The quantity and quality of information given about the Rijal in these books is by far too low when compared with Sunni compilations.

So which ones are the earliest sunni biographies compilation ? Are they existing or have manuscripts or are just referenced in later biographical works?

Firm standing should be if a sahabi or tabi'i wrote a book and we have atleast some part of the manuscripti anything else is just heresay

Im not trying to attack you as a sunni, please bear in mind my opinion of later 12er imami works is much less charitable 

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On 1/15/2022 at 6:04 AM, Leibniz said:

Also consider the fact that mutaqadimoon scholars of Sunnis like Al Dhahabi and Ibn Hajjar have further defrosted and expanded the hadith sciences in Sunnis by compiling biographies of narrators from early sources in voluminous books like Siyar alam unnubala and Tehdhib etc. They have simplified the stuff by collecting sayings of early muhadithoon about individual narrators in one place. 

indeed ibn hajar has more details in his works than lets say ibn abd birr 

But what's the well spring of this biographical data ? surely it's was written down before dedicated biographical dictionaries were compiled 

All the sunni muhadith came much later , information they relied on for their judgement  is that available? If not how can neutral person trust their judgement? Esp if the primary concern of muhadith is to adhere to a certain doctrine

Ibn kalbis were the masters in this field of biographies and his work is available today are there sunni or protosunni works that are contemporary or predate him ? 

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