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In the Name of God بسم الله

A Salafi man Said this about Karabla:Myth vs Reality

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  • 2 weeks later...
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This is common.  I've heard it many times that the Shia abandoned Imam Hussein at Karbala.  Not sure what the source is.  The likely facts are lost to time, with each person writing what they want about it.

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On 1/8/2022 at 5:00 PM, Lion of Shia said:

main-qimg-a2ab37a469bd8086d2df899182bcc7b0-lq

The killers of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) were the nasibis and some were sons of the companions of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (tabeyeen ), They included:

Umar bin Sad bin Abi Waqqas

Ubaydullah bin Ziyad

Shimer bin Zil Joshan

Shabath bin Rab’I

Yazeed ibne Mawiya

Yazeed [la] used the word “Shia” for his adherents in Kufa which has been translated as “followers”

and others ......

The details can be seen at the links given below:

https://imamhusain.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/who-are-the-adherents-of-the-nasibi-killers-of-imam-hussain-as/

https://www.seratonline.com/22938/was-imam-husain-a-s-killed-by-yazid-or-his-shias/

https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/who-were-killers-imam-husaynas

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/who-killed-imam-hussain/adherents-of-killers-of-imam-hussain.html

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/who-killed-imam-hussain/uthmani-nawasib-killed-hussain.html

wasalam

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On 1/11/2022 at 1:36 AM, Dutchzahra said:

The murderers of Karbala also never introduced themselves as the lovers of Husain ((عليه السلام)). They rather said: “Surely, we fight you for our hatred towards your father”! (al-Qondoozi, p.346). They also called Imam Husain ((عليه السلام)) a liar!: “O Husain, O liar son of a liar!” (Ibn Athir vol.4 p.67).

As salaamun aleikum, 

Just curious, what incidents in particular did they have hatred for Imam Ali(عليه السلام) for, or was it just general jealousy and hatred?

On 1/11/2022 at 1:36 AM, Dutchzahra said:

Yazid wrote a letter to the governor of Kufa, Obaydullah Ibn Ziad, ordering him to ‘either behead (Imam) Husain or take him as a slave!” and Ibn Ziad killed the Imam and sent his head to Yazid. (al-Zahabi, vol 3. P.305). Therefore, Yazid is the main perpetrator of the tragedy of Karbala.

I had heard from a reliable source that the practice of beheading was not an Arab practice, that it came from outside.

Anyone have any idea if this is indeed true, and if so, who or where this horrific practice came from?

Last question. Does anyone know how to contact or send questions to Sheikh Leghaei?

Jzk...

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On 1/8/2022 at 8:00 PM, Lion of Shia said:

main-qimg-a2ab37a469bd8086d2df899182bcc7b0-lq

You have to look at this carefully. The whole premise of the 'Myth Busted' part is that Yazid(la) was only the ruler of Sham and not Kufa or Karabala. This premise is, of course, nonsense, not even Sunni's accept this. He was Caliph at the time. The Caliph is the ruler of all the Muslim lands, including Sham and Karbala, Kufa, etc. So an argument based on a premise, which is nonsense is not worth arguing about, IMHO. 

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23 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

You have to look at this carefully. The whole premise of the 'Myth Busted' part is that Yazid(la) was only the ruler of Sham and not Kufa or Karabala. This premise is, of course, nonsense, not even Sunni's accept this. He was Caliph at the time. The Caliph is the ruler of all the Muslim lands, including Sham and Karbala, Kufa, etc. So an argument based on a premise, which is nonsense is not worth arguing about, IMHO. 

Furthermore when tawwabun rose to avenge Hussain they wanted revenge from Syrians as they correctly realized who the real villains were 

Its like saying Hitler Is innocent of genocide as he was a Austrian and it was German Bavarians or Norwegian SS recruits who committed these crimes 

total nonsense 

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On 1/22/2022 at 10:21 AM, Muslim2010 said:

The killers of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) were the nasibis and some were sons of the companions of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (tabeyeen ), They included:

Umar bin Sad bin Abi Waqqas

Ubaydullah bin Ziyad

Shimer bin Zil Joshan

Shabath bin Rab’I

Yazeed ibne Mawiya

Yazeed [la] used the word “Shia” for his adherents in Kufa which has been translated as “followers”

and others ......

The details can be seen at the links given below:

https://imamhusain.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/who-are-the-adherents-of-the-nasibi-killers-of-imam-hussain-as/

https://www.seratonline.com/22938/was-imam-husain-a-s-killed-by-yazid-or-his-shias/

https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/who-were-killers-imam-husaynas

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/who-killed-imam-hussain/adherents-of-killers-of-imam-hussain.html

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/who-killed-imam-hussain/uthmani-nawasib-killed-hussain.html

wasalam

It must be noted though shabath b ribi’i indeed was a close companion of Ali and he was also a supporter of Aisha earlier and khawarij later and even later of ibn zubair 

so that’s the nature of tribal alliances in 7th century 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

It must be noted though shabath b ribi’i indeed was a close companion of Ali and he was also a supporter of Aisha earlier and khawarij later and even later of ibn zubair 

so that’s the nature of tribal alliances in 7th century 

Thanks for your information. 

I like to mention the words of quran about such characters:

وَمَنْ كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

But whoever has been blind in this [world], will be blind in the Hereafter, and [even] more astray from the [right] way. (17:72)

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 4/2/2022 at 12:52 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

It must be noted though shabath b ribi’i indeed was a close companion of Ali

Salam there is no evidence  about it nevertheless  he joined to Imam Ali's army due to his opposition  with cursed Muawiah  based on doctrine  of  " enemy of my enemy is my friend " but on the other hand when he has realized that he can reaches to his interests  through cursed Yazid (la) so then he has betrayed  to Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) after inviting  him to Kufa which Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) has mentioned his name in his sermon before his martyrdom & condemned & cursed  him as one of invitrers which has betrayed  him & joined to army of Yazid(la) which shabath b ribi’i has built a mosque in Kufa for thanksgiving  of martyrying  of Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) that his mosque will be one of four mosques that Imam Mahdi(aj) will destroy  if after entering  to Kufa so therefore  there is no way that you or anybody else calls shabath b ribi’i as close  companion of Amir al Muminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام).

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Posted (edited)
On 4/2/2022 at 11:20 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam there is no evidence  about it nevertheless  he joined to Imam Ali's army due to his opposition  with cursed Muawiah  based on doctrine  of  " enemy of my enemy is my friend " but on the other hand when he has realized that he can reaches to his interests  through cursed Yazid (la) so then he has betrayed  to Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) after inviting  him to Kufa which Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) has mentioned his name in his sermon before his martyrdom & condemned & cursed  him as one of invitrers which has betrayed  him & joined to army of Yazid(la) which shabath b ribi’i has built a mosque in Kufa for thanksgiving  of martyrying  of Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) that his mosque will be one of four mosques that Imam Mahdi(aj) will destroy  if after entering  to Kufa so therefore  there is no way that you or anybody else calls shabath b ribi’i as close  companion of Amir al Muminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام).

No evidence? 
Of what ? 
he was a supporter & companion of Ali ( albeit a unreliable and unfaithful one)

even one of those who gave a very terse and fitting reply to muawiyah when he was gloating and bragging 

furthermore atleast on one occasion Ali took shibath advice over even a loyalist like mikhnaf b sulaym azdi 

Shibath probably had an element of sympathy for Iraqi Arab Shias given his remarks about Muslim b Awsaja and Ziyad b khasafa

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

he was a supporter & companion of Ali ( albeit a unreliable and unfaithful one)

Salam supporters & companions  of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) have been Malik Ashtar(رضي الله عنه) & Salman  Farsi[Muhammadi] (رضي الله عنه) & Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) & Miqdad(رضي الله عنه) which Shibath's attributes doesn't  match with them also his attributes  has been in opposition  of their attributes  which during lifetime of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) he has joined to   false prophet the Sajjah  anyway  at the end he has accepted  Islam  also he joined to Khawarij but again joined to army of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) before battle of Nahrawan so therefore he doesn't  fit in definition  of supporter & companion of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

even one of those who gave a very terse and fitting reply to muawiyah when he was gloating and bragging

He has been from supporters of third caliph Uthman who has known Muawiah (la) as killer of him so he joined to army of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) for taking revenge  of killing Uthman not for supporting  Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

furthermore atleast on one occasion Ali took shibath advice over even a loyalist like mikhnaf b sulaym azdi 

He has been a wise man but on the other hand he has been a hypocrite which accepting his advice doesn't  mean he has been a good man or better than a " loyalist like mikhnaf b sulaym azdi"

7 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Shibath probably had an element of sympathy for Iraqi Arab Shias given his remarks about Muslim b Awsaja and Ziyad b khasafa

He has agenda of sympathy  for Iraqi Arabs over Syrians which in rare occasions  it could  be in favor of Shias in Iraq anyway he has had a great rule for motivating & persuading Zubairis for defeating  Mukhtar(رضي الله عنه) which leads to martyrying  of many Shias in Iraq so therefore he has nullified "his remarks  about Muslim b Awsaja and Ziyad b khasafa".

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa45613

Quote

Shabath b. Ribʿī b. Ḥuṣayn al-Tamīmī al-Yarbūʿī (Arabic:شَبَث بن رِبعِي بن حُصَین التَمیمی اليَربوعي) (d. about 70/689-90) was among rich people of Kufa who had an inconsistent personality in the history.

Shabath was among dissidents of 'Uthman and a commander of the army of Imam Ali (a) in the Battle of Siffin. On the way toward Nahrawan, he joined Khawarij, but after the words of Imam (a), he returned and took the leadership of a part of Imam's (a) army in the Battle of Nahrawan.

He was among those who testified against Hujr b. 'Adi.

When Hujr b. 'Adi was in the prison of Ziyad b. Abih, Shabth was among those who testified against him.[26]

 

Quote

After the tragedy of 'Ashura, thankful for the martyrdom of Imam al-Husayn (a), Shabath reconstructed his mosque in Kufa (which previously Imam Ali (a) had prohibited people from praying there).[19]

Following the Uprising of al-Mukhtar, Shabath was appointed by 'Abd Allah b. Muti' to fight al-Mukhtar.[20] He also had a role in the revolt of the chiefs of Kufa against al-Mukhtar.[21] When the army of al-Mukhtar led by Ibrahim b. Malik al-Ashtar went to fight the army of Syria, chiefs of Kufa revolted against al-Mukhtar. Shabath b. Rib'i together with Shimr b. Dhi l-Jawshan and Muhammad b. Ash'ath b. Qays were among the chief leaders of the revolt. Al-Mukhtar sent someone to tell Ibrahim b. Malik al-Ashtar to bring back the army and suppress the revolt.[22] Following the news of the return of Ibrahim b. Malik Ashtar, Shabath changed his position and sent a message to al-Mukhtar that, "We are from your tribe and your right hand. By God, I swear that we will not fight you and you should be confident about this."[23] Al-Mukhtar ignored his letter and sent Ibrahim b. Malik to fight him.

 

Quote

In the Uprising of al-Mukhtar and the revolt of the nobles of Kufa, he stood against al-Mukhtar and also played a role in provoking Mus'ab a. al-Zubayr and killing al-Mukhtar.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Shabath_b._Rib'i

 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam supporters & companions  of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) have been Malik Ashtar(رضي الله عنه) & Salman  Farsi[Muhammadi] (رضي الله عنه) & Ammar ibn Yasir (رضي الله عنه) & Miqdad(رضي الله عنه) which Shibath's attributes doesn't  match with them also his attributes  has been in opposition  of their attributes  which during lifetime of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) he has joined to   false prophet the Sajjah  anyway  at the end he has accepted  Islam  also he joined to Khawarij but again joined to army of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) before battle of Nahrawan so therefore he doesn't  fit in definition  of supporter & companion of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

He has been from supporters of third caliph Uthman who has known Muawiah (la) as killer of him so he joined to army of Amir al Muminin  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) for taking revenge  of killing Uthman not for supporting  Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

He has been a wise man but on the other hand he has been a hypocrite which accepting his advice doesn't  mean he has been a good man or better than a " loyalist like mikhnaf b sulaym azdi"

He has agenda of sympathy  for Iraqi Arabs over Syrians which in rare occasions  it could  be in favor of Shias in Iraq anyway he has had a great rule for motivating & persuading Zubairis for defeating  Mukhtar(رضي الله عنه) which leads to martyrying  of many Shias in Iraq so therefore he has nullified "his remarks  about Muslim b Awsaja and Ziyad b khasafa".

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa45613

 

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Shabath_b._Rib'i

 

I don’t disagree with the facts you stated but still I can’t see how he isn’t a companion and supporter of Ali ( albeit unfaithful as noted by me above ) when he is a active participant in most events of his caliphate 

maybe you are biased against shabath as he said “ a whole army of Iranians is standing in front of us and you want me to recite Surah Baqara in prayers ?” When he was admonished for short prayers as a leader. He was prejudiced against Iranians though so I see why you abhor him so much brother 

my point is he is a complex personality, lots of grey areas in him not straight foward all evil like muawiyah and Aisha 

btw mukhtar was not all the rage with Arab Iraqi Shias either , his bulk of supporters are Iranian Shias even his few Arab Iraqi supporters like abu tufayl (رضي الله عنه) seem to have left him in the end as he lived to the ripe old age of 100 well into the period of zubayri Iraq.

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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36 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

maybe you are biased against shabath as he said “ a whole army of Iranians is standing in front of us and you want me to recite Surah Baqara in prayers ?” When he was admonished for short prayers as a leader. He was prejudiced against Iranians though so I see why you abhor him so much brothe

Salam It has no relation to his attitude against Iranians which all shias agree that he has been a traitor & hypocrite which he has joined to army of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) just for his personal grudge against Muawiah(la) which you are only person who has  categorized him as companion of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in similar fashion which wahabist has said that Shimr (la) has been companion of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) likewise shabath so therefore Shias of Ali killed Imam Hussain(عليه السلام).

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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam It has no relation to his attitude against Iranians which all shias agree that he has been a traitor & hypocrite which he has joined to army of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) just for his personal grudge against Muawiah(la) which you are only person who has  categorized him as companion of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in similar fashion which wahabist has said that Shimr (la) has been companion of Amir al Muminn Imam Ali(عليه السلام) likewise shabath so therefore Shias of Ali killed Imam Hussain(عليه السلام).

I agree he was a traitor ( to everyone he worked for ) and the epitome of fickleness 

And shimar was a minor supporter of Ali had no significant contribution to his cause 

 

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