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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why have you chosen NOT to be Sunni?

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:salam:

The purpose of this post isn’t to have discord on the thread, rather I want to better understand your reasonings for choosing Shia Islam in brief points so I can take them into consideration during my research. 
 

At the moment it feels there are some things in Shia’ism that make sense and sit well with me, but many other things that don’t. I also feel the same with Sunni’ism, but probably have less points of contention. 
 

Thank you in advance for your time.

Edited by seekingthebeloved
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Salamu Alaikum, 

I'm not Shia because I'm against the Suhaba, I'm Shia because I'm for the Ahlulbayt. Even if every negative thing about the Suhaba was wiped out they would still not impress me like Imam Ali s.a did. He was the hero of every battle and always maintained a high level of integrity. This isn't even a Shia thing, even in saheeh Sunni books it is narrated that the Prophet s.a said: Verily, I leave behind among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my Progeny, my Ahle Bayt

Simply put: They impressed me immensely. Really look at their words and actions. Let them prove themselves to you, not their followers.

3451161.thumb.jpg.e14e48d8d5db905c5935002ad674516f.jpg

 

 

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When I first converted and learned of Sunni hadith, I was shocked and horrified. 

Later I learned some pretty horrifying Shia hadith too, but I was already here, already convinced of Imamate.

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6 hours ago, notme said:

When I first converted and learned of Sunni hadith, I was shocked and horrified. 

Later I learned some pretty horrifying Shia hadith too, but I was already here, already convinced of Imamate.

What were you shocked and horrified about? We know hadiths aren’t 100% accurate anyway…

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2 hours ago, seekingthebeloved said:

What were you shocked and horrified about? We know hadiths aren’t 100% accurate anyway…

Mainly ones about the status of women, as I recall.  It was a very long time ago. The ladies who were teaching me presented it as if it was "sahih" and could not be doubted. I nearly left the faith because of it.  Fortunately, I asked a friend, who referred me to a shia website for research. (I believe it was al-islam.org.)

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For me it’s about hadiths found within Sunni literature that match up with Shia theology. In addition, I believe it is more rational that Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (explicitly) chose a successor and didn’t intend for chaos subsequent to his departure from this world. 

Also, I find Beauty and Truth in the sayings of the ahlulbayt ((عليه السلام)) in shiite narrations.

Wallahu A’lam

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For me it was logic.

Humans are fools. 

God is perfect. 

God sent Islam to guide us fools.

The Guide can't be a fool or it'll be a fool guiding fools (look at history's world leaders both in Muslim majority and muslim minority countries)

Thus the Guide must be perfect

After the Prophet (pbuhf), Ali ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام)) historically is the only human who meets this criteria of being perfect and selected by God through His Prophet (pbuhf)

Quran and Hadith confirmed this to me.

So this is why.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Mainly ones about the status of women, as I recall.  It was a very long time ago. The ladies who were teaching me presented it as if it was "sahih" and could not be doubted. I nearly left the faith because of it.  Fortunately, I asked a friend, who referred me to a shia website for research. (I believe it was al-islam.org.)

I have been quite shocked and horrified by some ahadith as well. For me, it was more a matter of questioning whether I am looking at things from a modern lens. But then also realising the context of the ahadith (and the possibility of them being dhaeef or maudhu).

Though I guess that’s a topic for another thread.

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4 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

The Guide can't be a fool or it'll be a fool guiding fools (look at history's world leaders both in Muslim majority and muslim minority countries)

Thus the Guide must be perfect

That’s a fair point. But to play the devil’s advocate, there’s a great jump from being a “fool” and being “perfect”. Couldn’t the Guide be someone who does not commit sins, but is at the same time imperfect (committing actions that are perhaps not categorised as sins, but mistakes nonetheless)?

I don’t know I may be overthinking here.

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2 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

For me it’s about hadiths found within Sunni literature that match up with Shia theology. In addition, I believe it is more rational that Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (explicitly) chose a successor and didn’t intend for chaos subsequent to his departure from this world. 
 

Also, I find Beauty and Truth in the sayings of the ahlulbayt ((عليه السلام)) in shiite narrations.


 

 

 

 

 

Wallahu A’lam

Thank you for responding. Can you highlight specifically which hadiths you’re referring to that matched with Shia theology? I am aware of the two weighty things being left behind.. (which can be interpreted differently i.e. either meaning to follow ahlulbayt as guides, or to revere them in respect and acknowledgment due to their closeness with the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

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7 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

That’s a fair point. But to play the devil’s advocate, there’s a great jump from being a “fool” and being “perfect”. Couldn’t the Guide be someone who does not commit sins, but is at the same time imperfect (committing actions that are perhaps not categorised as sins, but mistakes nonetheless)?

I don’t know I may be overthinking here.

Are there Shias who differ on the level of infallibility of the Imams? Personally I have found the concept of infallibility difficult to swallow 

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11 minutes ago, seekingthebeloved said:

Thank you for responding. Can you highlight specifically which hadiths you’re referring to that matched with Shia theology? I am aware of the two weighty things being left behind.. (which can be interpreted differently i.e. either meaning to follow ahlulbayt as guides, or to revere them in respect and acknowledgment due to their closeness with the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Off the top of my head I can remember Hadith Thaqalayn, Ghadeer Khumm, Aaron and Moses hadith, Da’wat Dhu’l Ashira. Hadith of the Cloak and it’s relation to 33:33 of Quran, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) paying Zakat in ruku and it’s relation to the Wali verse, the Fadak hadith and the pen and paper hadith.  Please let me know if you don’t know which I’m talking about and inshaAllah me or someone here will find the hadiths for you.

There may be more in this video (please forgive me if the video sounds disrespectful).

 

 

 

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On 12/28/2021 at 9:03 AM, seekingthebeloved said:

Are there Shias who differ on the level of infallibility of the Imams? Personally I have found the concept of infallibility difficult to swallow 

From my (small) understanding it does seem to be a major doctrine within Shiism. I believe it flows directly from Quran 33:33 and the Hadith of the Cloak (as well as other verses).

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12 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

That’s a fair point. But to play the devil’s advocate, there’s a great jump from being a “fool” and being “perfect”. Couldn’t the Guide be someone who does not commit sins, but is at the same time imperfect (committing actions that are perhaps not categorised as sins, but mistakes nonetheless)?

 

No because that would contradict the prerequisite I mentioned that God is perfect. Perfection precludes mistakes.

12 hours ago, seekingthebeloved said:

Are there Shias who differ on the level of infallibility of the Imams? Personally I have found the concept of infallibility difficult to swallow 

Going along with 313_Waiter's theme, what kind of God sends a guide who misguides? =P

In a more relatable way, would you pour acid on your eyes? No because it's easy for you to perceive the potential harm and torment that would result.
Likewise, when you're a Prophet of God, or God's chosen one, or God's chosen guide, you perceive even the most minor sins in the same way.

Imam Ali ibn Hussein ((عليه السلام)) used to shake every time he performed wudhu in fear of standing before Allah.

It's all about the insight. Contrast the toddler exploring the dangers of a fire to the adult who has experienced its effects.

 

Edited by dragonxx
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Salam brother

If you really want to know as to why shias choose to be shias based on evidence that is accepted by both Shias and Sunnis. I highly recommend you read this book: Then I was guided by Muhammad Al-Tijani

It raises many many good points and questions, its a really good book for your research 

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8 hours ago, Ibn Maymun said:

Dear friend,

I chose Shia Islam because I prefer to take my deen from the Ahlul-Bayt.  They had zero hope of gaining position and sacrificed what little they had to stand against the wealth and secularism of the growing Islamic empire.  In them I find an example that calls me to seek knowledge, to sacrifice my material wealth for the well-being of others, and to always work on my character.  To me it’s about the relationship that I have with the Imams, and about how I can honestly say I’m a more patient, honest, and mannered person for having learned from their example.

Wa Allahu a’alam 

 

Thank you for sharing. You mentioned that your choice was based on them not having hope of gaining anything but Sunnis can also argue the same for the caliphs they follow..

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7 hours ago, dragonxx said:

No because that would contradict the prerequisite I mentioned that God is perfect. Perfection precludes mistakes.

Going along with 313_Waiter's theme, what kind of God sends a guide who misguides? =P

In a more relatable way, would you pour acid on your eyes? No because it's easy for you to perceive the potential harm and torment that would result.
Likewise, when you're a Prophet of God, or God's chosen one, or God's chosen guide, you perceive even the most minor sins in the same way.

Imam Ali ibn Hussein ((عليه السلام)) used to shake every time he performed wudhu in fear of standing before Allah.

It's all about the insight. Contrast the toddler exploring the dangers of a fire to the adult who has experienced its effects.

 

To further play devils advocate, one could argue that having a guide who isn’t ‘perfect’ makes them more relatable to mankind and therefore easier for them to follow such a guide as opposed to a station considered unattainable 

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3 hours ago, seekingthebeloved said:

Thank you for sharing. You mentioned that your choice was based on them not having hope of gaining anything but Sunnis can also argue the same for the caliphs they follow..

Of course.  Disagreement about facts and their interpretation is why there are different sects. 

I'm interested in which caliphs you mean, though.  If you're speaking of Abu Bakr, Umar ibn ul-Khattab, and Uthman ibn Affan - they had position and power and a far more secure position than any of the Imams.  Debating whether each of them was selfless or selfish or whether they were driven by an honestly held point of view or twisting circumstances and beliefs to meet their ends just leads to an endless cycle.  Personally, I don't see that debate as useful.  I see the first three khulafa as flawed individuals who were struggling with the problems of running a new empire.  They were concerned with concentrating power, ensuring that sufficient revenues rolled in to the treasury, defeating opposing empires, etc., and had to make difficult choices,  Such is life.  Faulting rulers for compromising on principles or innovating to meet new situations seems to be faulting rulers for being human beings placed in charge of other human beings.  Not faulting them for being flawed, however, isn't the same as saying,"This is who I want to take my religion from."

Perhaps, though, someone sees flaws as a redeeming quality.  As you said in another message, it makes leadership more relatable.  I see that point of view, which is another reason that I don't think it's useful to focus on the first three caliphs. 

Let me pose a question - how does it impact a religion when it has to evolve to meet the needs of the state over 1400 years?  The holders of the title "Khalifa" from the Banu Umayya onward were an extremely mixed bag.  The various independent kings and dictators who ruled over Muslim countries were as well.  Some were rank tyrants.  Some were men of secular vision, building glorious cities and academies.  Some were men of principle.  All had the agenda of amassing power.  All favored and privileged those scholars who furthered their agenda and told them what they wanted to hear.  It's this line of transmission that present-day Sunnis rely upon for their knowledge of the Prophet, the Sahaba, and the Sunnah.  

When I weighed the impact of one line of scholars repeatedly having to ask themselves "What will the khalifa have to say about this?" against scholars and leaders who instead had to ask "What am I willing to suffer and die for?", I chose to favor the latter.  This isn't to impeach the sincerity or character of every Sunni scholar, nor is it to bury my head in the sand and ignore the flaws of Shia scholars.  It's simply to note that by comparison, the formative period of Shia Islam was marked by persecution.  

To lay all cards on the table, I am very much a product of my upbringing.  As a person from a devout Jewish background, I've seen how the pressures of history can lead a community with the best of intentions to prioritize the wrong thing.  Rabbinic Judaism starts off as a well-intentioned mission to preserve Jewish life in a diaspora and spirals off into an obsession over identity.  I believe that the earliest Talmudic sages were wise, well-intentioned but flawed men.  I still speak with reverence of the example of Rabbi Akiva, Hillel, and Shimon bar Yochai.  I tell my kids stories from Rebbe Nachman or folktales I heard from my grandma.  I believe that modern religious Jews are sincere and God-fearing.  However, all of those admissions doesn't mean that I want to base my religion on their teachings.  Similarly, I can believe that there have been 1400 years of pious and God-fearing Sunni Muslims and still prefer to take my religion from other sources.

wa Allahu a'alam.

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10 hours ago, seekingthebeloved said:

To further play devils advocate, one could argue that having a guide who isn’t ‘perfect’ makes them more relatable to mankind and therefore easier for them to follow such a guide as opposed to a station considered unattainable 

Circular argument - a guide who misguides, more "relatable" or not, is inexcusable coming from God.
God's authority on Earth: "Whoops, sorry, I realized I didn't know how to divide inheritance between you 6 brothers and 3 sisters, my bad. Sucks for you sisters, I gave the brothers extra portions which they've already spent. But hey, at least you can feel more relatable to me as you wallow in poverty!=)"

Jokes aside, here is an example - it's the same type of expression a Christian would use in defence when saying God came in the form of Jesus to share and take our pain/sins, be relatable, etc. Yeah sure... except you don't have God anymore, you have a limited entity who even engages in human behaviour including excretory functions...

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I have said this on many occasions that Shia Islam presents the purest form of Tawheed than any other religion which is the fundamental pillar of Islam.

And in researching such an extremely complex issue, we have to follow into the footsteps of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) who taught purest form of unity of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) .

Sadly other religions and sect's have introduced the concept of Anthropomorphism the idea of attributing human like characteristics.

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I don't really believe in all this sectarianism. Both sunni and shias have their equal share of smart people and idiots. Both sunni and shia imams have a tendency to say the most ridiculous things in their juma speeches. In a sunni forum you'll probably find a similar thread where sunnis extolls how perfect their faith is.

What they have in common though, is that both sunnis and shias have lost sight of what is the core teachings of Islam, and instead engages in petty bantering.

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Guest ra'inā

the structure is more appealing. it seems like sunni faith is becoming more christian-like in terms of lacking in action-based faith without fueling the ego.

i will still seek more perspective as not to base it off of a handful of experiences.. for example, i was given a qur'an by a sunni. yet the individual who gave it to me, never wants to engage in conversation regarding the contents.

some months later, they were expressing having a difficult moment, so i gave a gift of sealed halal dessert (sharing size as they have a family) and words of encouragement. at first the individual accepted the gift and then rejected it later in the same day. the manner in which the rejection of the gift of food and encouragement was handled did not offend me, it was just shockingly unexpected. as from sermon/text, it is stated that such a rejection implies the withdrawal of trust between brothers/sisters.

sunni/christian faith seems to be more emotional than logical IMHO.

the pursuit of knowledge and really phenomenal orators, who speak truthfully and encourage us to do the needful yet retain our humanity and strive for perfection are some of the best parts of shia teachings.

one concern is the gendered dynamic of some religious laws.. in the west there are all sorts of...."human experience challenges" that one has to face and in order to follow the root of the scripture i dont believe that gender can be a concern in some regards.

for example, the head covering should be more similar for male/female as to eschew a deeper sense of unity in faith and its generally more preformative. of course distinguish between the genders but unify the appearance as to reduce the amount of negative attention in the west. for example, no disrespect just truth: a male to female transgender individual is generally less prone to discrimination in today's society than a fully covered muslim woman.

i tend to believe that if any of the past imams lived an actual present day western experience, their mouths would be agape. they would have a serious meeting and find a way to maintain the root of the teachings but also balance it out with the reality that many of us are facing.

it is not practical or efficient to confront a ubiquitously nacscient enmity, baring one's teeth. being mindful of the reality of others, is necessary for the survivability of the teachings IMHO.

in my heart of hearts, im shia down to my last chromosome. therefore i cannot deny any other reality in spite of my faith. if it wont work for sunnis or christians, we have to make it work for us IMHO.

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Guest Ra-ina:

i tend to believe that if any of the past imams lived an actual present day western experience, their mouths would be agape. they would have a serious meeting and find a way to maintain the root of the teachings but also balance it out with the reality that many of us are facing. 
{care to explain the realities that many of us are facing that are new? From the way I’ve known Quran and history, all the vices that we face had always been there, in full force, for the people of the past. Nothing changed except technology made it closer yet virtual}

it is not practical or efficient to confront a ubiquitously nacscient enmity, baring one's teeth. being mindful of the reality of others, is necessary for the survivability of the teachings IMHO.
{I didn’t get this part either, could you please explain more, maybe I’m not getting the context of it}

in my heart of hearts, im shia down to my last chromosome. therefore i cannot deny any other reality in spite of my faith. if it wont work for sunnis or christians, we have to make it work for us IMHO.

{this is pure poetic, the best paragraph of all the replies above including the rest of your post}

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On 12/29/2021 at 4:59 PM, Dubilex said:

I don't really believe in all this sectarianism. Both sunni and shias have their equal share of smart people and idiots. Both sunni and shia imams have a tendency to say the most ridiculous things in their juma speeches. In a sunni forum you'll probably find a similar thread where sunnis extolls how perfect their faith is.

What they have in common though, is that both sunnis and shias have lost sight of what is the core teachings of Islam, and instead engages in petty bantering.

I don’t see any sectarianism in any of it. I can bet over your mobile phone (LOL) that you haven’t understood 90% of this thread and haven’t read 99% of it. 

I apologize for being offensive but please don’t ask or say things that don’t make sense, to you and to anyone else. It takes the focus away from the topic, and muddies the water unnecessarily.

I’m honestly loving the intelligent replies of so many members in so many thought provoking ways. 

What if this question is asked of you as soon as you are interred in your grave?  

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On 12/27/2021 at 2:26 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

:salam:

The purpose of this post isn’t to have discord on the thread, rather I want to better understand your reasonings for choosing Shia Islam in brief points so I can take them into consideration during my research. 
At the moment it feels there are some things in Shia’ism that make sense and sit well with me, but many other things that don’t. I also feel the same with Sunni’ism, but probably have less points of contention. 
Thank you in advance for your time.

I like to add my view also. I have spent more than 15 years in searching of sunni and shia principles and i have come to know that the verification of the principles of Shia belief provides that these are inline with the verses of Quran and acceptable hadith.

Through i am a born shia but i have spent the time to know the shia principles and belief and found them inline with the truth.

Thus i like to spend my life following the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his purified progeny (12 imams) in order to be successful in the life of this world and life after wards / Akhira.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us and keep us on the straight path (Sirate Mustaqeem)Ameen.

wasalam

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Salam,

Because the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are Pure (33:33) and they are constantly pulling us from the pool of Jahilliyah, onto a ship of Salvation (to be purified) in order for us to serve Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) according to approved ways.

The pool of Jahilliyah was still strong among so-called companions back then, and today the pool is bigger, deeper,  murky, dirty....  So we need to cling more than ever to Ahlulbayt to be guided.

Wallahualam 

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- Why should I choose a sect created centuries after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ?

- Who is Abu Hanifa and how does he qualify as a successor of the Prophet to tell us whats right and wrong? Especially when Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) is present at the same time, someone they say was Abu's "teacher". But the truth is that Mansoor supported the new religion and appointed Abu Hanifa's protege Abu Yusuf as Qadhi Al-Qadha (Chief judge) for his new Abbasid regime. Mansoor had asked Imam Ja'far to endorse and support their takeover from Umayyads but the Imam did not comply so he turned to the newly formed Ahl us Sunnah. Moreover, he imposed restrictions on Shias while helping the spread of Sunni. Its all in history. Why should I be a part of that?

- Sunni practices are not according to Quran. Quran has so many things which Shia do correctly, like ablutions, fasting, prayer, inheritance, zakat, khums, mowaddah of Ahl al Bayt (عليه السلام).

I know there are things like cussing certain Sunni sahabas, calling for help to Imams and cutting themselves in Muharram etc etc in the Shia -people- but not in its doctrine and absolutely not required. And this serves as a strawman argument for others.

In fact, to tell the truth, a person can not choose to be Shia on their own, only Allah chooses the Shia and guides to the straight path. Therefore a person should always and at all times beseech Allah for guidance and humble their heart and always be a student and like a vessel not full so it is ready to receive more. After guidance comes the part of adherence to it through life and until death.

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On 12/30/2021 at 1:10 AM, Guest ra'inā said:

the structure is more appealing. it seems like sunni faith is becoming more christian-like in terms of lacking in action-based faith without fueling the ego.

i will still seek more perspective as not to base it off of a handful of experiences.. for example, i was given a qur'an by a sunni. yet the individual who gave it to me, never wants to engage in conversation regarding the contents.

some months later, they were expressing having a difficult moment, so i gave a gift of sealed halal dessert (sharing size as they have a family) and words of encouragement. at first the individual accepted the gift and then rejected it later in the same day. the manner in which the rejection of the gift of food and encouragement was handled did not offend me, it was just shockingly unexpected. as from sermon/text, it is stated that such a rejection implies the withdrawal of trust between brothers/sisters.

sunni/christian faith seems to be more emotional than logical IMHO.

the pursuit of knowledge and really phenomenal orators, who speak truthfully and encourage us to do the needful yet retain our humanity and strive for perfection are some of the best parts of shia teachings.

one concern is the gendered dynamic of some religious laws.. in the west there are all sorts of...."human experience challenges" that one has to face and in order to follow the root of the scripture i dont believe that gender can be a concern in some regards.

for example, the head covering should be more similar for male/female as to eschew a deeper sense of unity in faith and its generally more preformative. of course distinguish between the genders but unify the appearance as to reduce the amount of negative attention in the west. for example, no disrespect just truth: a male to female transgender individual is generally less prone to discrimination in today's society than a fully covered muslim woman.

i tend to believe that if any of the past imams lived an actual present day western experience, their mouths would be agape. they would have a serious meeting and find a way to maintain the root of the teachings but also balance it out with the reality that many of us are facing.

it is not practical or efficient to confront a ubiquitously nacscient enmity, baring one's teeth. being mindful of the reality of others, is necessary for the survivability of the teachings IMHO.

in my heart of hearts, im shia down to my last chromosome. therefore i cannot deny any other reality in spite of my faith. if it wont work for sunnis or christians, we have to make it work for us IMHO.

Thank you for sharing. I just wonder how you feel Sunni’ism is comparative to Christianity? I think some would argue the same for Shia’ism with the concept of tawaasul and having an intermediary 

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On 1/3/2022 at 3:10 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

Thank you for sharing. I just wonder how you feel Sunni’ism is comparative to Christianity? I think some would argue the same for Shia’ism with the concept of tawaasul and having an intermediary 

Salam "concept of tawaasul and having an intermediary" is common concept in all Abrahamic  religion which there is many evidences  which all 4 sunni school of thought have believed  to it in different  levels which only deviated & radical  groups  likewise  Wahabists  & Salafists  have denied it.

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