12 Shi'a Imams According To Sunni Islam / Mufti Abu Layth / 6 min.

[Eddie Mecca]

Released 12-22-21...MALM believes the 12 Shi'a Imams (a) were historically closer to what Ja'fari school claims then to what Sunni Islam says...'why don't Sunnis seriously narrate from him?' he asks...MALM's open-mindedness is a double-edged sword...it's the quality I like about him and (simultaneously) the quality I abhor about him 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Eddie Mecca

[313_Waiter]

Salam,

Would appreciate ur thoughts on any of these posts:

 

[145_turbo_16V]

I like him, open minded, but I just hate the fact he admires muawiyah because he thinks muawiyah is charismatic and is a little “naughty, naughty”

Edited December 27, 2021 by 145_turbo_16V

[AStruggler]

2 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

I like him, open minded, but I just hate the fact he admires muawiyah because he thinks muawiyah is charismatic and is a little “naughty, naughty”

That and it seems he's made way too many haram things halal, idk what he even coniders haram tbh. Idk how a believer is to be tested if everything is fine and good.

And I haven't seen too many of his recent videos, but based on the older ones, his behaviour and humour, as funny as it might be at times, is also sometimes indecent and inappropriate. Also felt he's somewhat biased and inconsistent with his approach at times.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by AStruggler

[Cool]

To your surprise, a vast majority of Sunni brothers accepts 12 Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as the batini khalifah of Muslims. 

They consider political caliphs as apparent while batini caliphs as true successors of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They know the names of 12 caliphs starting from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) reaching to Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام). They believe the 12th caliph is Imam Mehdi ajtf. 

Wassalam!!

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

To your surprise, a vast majority of Sunni brothers accepts 12 Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as the batini khalifah of Muslims. 

They consider political caliphs as apparent while batini caliphs as true successors of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They know the names of 12 caliphs starting from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) reaching to Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام). They believe the 12th caliph is Imam Mehdi ajtf. 

Wassalam!!

I wonder when this mentality came to circle around them because no one ever thought in the time of khalifas that there was political vs spiritual khalifa. Khalifa in those times really mean Islamic leader to lead the ummah in all aspect of religion. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Cyrax]

14 hours ago, Cool said:

To your surprise, a vast majority of Sunni brothers accepts 12 Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as the batini khalifah of Muslims. 

They consider political caliphs as apparent while batini caliphs as true successors of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They know the names of 12 caliphs starting from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) reaching to Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام). They believe the 12th caliph is Imam Mehdi ajtf. 

Wassalam!!

Wait... what?  A vast majority of Muslims accept the 12 Imams as the batini khulafaa' of the Muslims?  Where did you read that?  What I know is that all the Muslim sects, Sunni, Shi'i or otherwise, reject the concept of the 12 Imams; all except the 12er sect.

As far as the majority of Muslims being able to name the 12 Imams, then obviously this isn't true.  I doubt even the majority of 12ers would be able to name all 12 Imams.

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I wonder when this mentality came to circle around them because no one ever thought in the time of khalifas that there was political vs spiritual khalifa. Khalifa in those times really mean Islamic leader to lead the ummah in all aspect of religion. 

Obviously, because this mentality doesn't exist.

Do you guys EVER interact with non-12er Muslims?

[Cyrax]

For the record, I, as a non-12er Muslim will attempt to name all 12 Imams without looking it up.

1) Imam Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه

2) Hassan عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه

3) Hussayn عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه

4) Zain Al-Abideen رحمه الله

5) Al-Baqir رحمه الله

6) as-Sadiq رحمه الله

7) al-Kathim رحمه الله

8) ar-Rida رحمه الله

11) Hassan al-Askari رحمه الله

12) Mohammed bin Hassan

I literally cannot for the life of me remember 9 and 10, and had to really pick my brain to remember ar-Rida.  Obviously, like all non-12ers, I dont believe that Hassan al-Askari had a son, and therefore, I don't believe the 12th Imam was ever born.

The idea that a "vast majority", let alone any Muslims, believe in a Baatini Imam vs Dhahiri Imams is just something that has no basis in reality whatsoever.

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, Cyrax said:

Do you guys EVER interact with non-12er Muslims?

Yes we do. But really I have also heared this before from Sunni, maybe it is from the Sufis but I do not take it as truth at all because it does not make any sense. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

15 hours ago, Cyrax said:

Where did you read that?

There are many Sunni Scholars in Pakistan who holds these views. I am sharing just two videos below:

Here is another and he is saying what I have quoted:

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Cool

[Muntazir e Mahdi]

Bismillah, salaam.

As for batini leaders, as @Cool said, many of the Ahl al-Sunnah accept the 12 Imams (عليه السلام). However, as for the zahiri leaders, there are also disputes. There is certainly at least one group, as far as I recall, that calls the 4 Sunni Rashidun caliphs as the first 4 imams including Imam 'Ali al-Murtadha (عليه السلام), then Imam al-Hasan al-Mujtaba (عليه السلام), then Mu'awiyah ibn Abu Sufyan, then Yazid ibn Mu'awiyah, to fill in the list of 12 successors of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I think the reference for this is in Sunan Ibn Majah as well as another book, but I cannot recall it.

Wasalaam.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Muntazir e Mahdi
Clarity

[coldcow]

Interesting, I appreciate people that can see the similarities and common ground between our two sects.  Will go back and watch these videos later when I have more time.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:12 PM, Abu Nur said:

I wonder when this mentality came to circle around them because no one ever thought in the time of khalifas that there was political vs spiritual khalifa. Khalifa in those times really mean Islamic leader to lead the ummah in all aspect of religion. 

The mentality came from the Sufis, brother. With the concept of the Sufi Shaykh's sovereignty and superiority over the temporal rulers, and the solidification of the early Sufi confraternities into 'turuq' and lines of succession, the concept of 'batini' khilafah came up, and it was traced back to the twelve a'imma (ams). Why exactly they chose the twelve imams (ams), I don't know. 

On 3/4/2022 at 5:37 PM, Cool said:

There are many Sunni Scholars in Pakistan who holds these views. I am sharing just two videos below:

Here is another and he is saying what I have quoted:

 

 

These are Barelwi ulama, which precisely proves my point that the adoption of the Ahlul Bayt (ams) into the contemporary Sunni hagiology owes itself to the Sufis. 

Let me drop another hard-to-swallow fact while we are at it- initially, Ameer al-Mu'minīn (عليه السلام) wasn't even included in the list of the Rāshidūn until Ahmad ibn Hanbal fought almost single-handedly to have him included. So that makes me doubt the historicity of MALM's claim. 

On 12/27/2021 at 10:10 PM, 145_turbo_16V said:

I like him, open minded, but I just hate the fact he admires muawiyah because he thinks muawiyah is charismatic and is a little “naughty, naughty”

That's not just him, that's the standard Sunni position since forever. Early dissenters like Nasa'i, whose 'Sunan' is included in the Sihah Sittah, were notable exceptions. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by AbdusSibtayn

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

1) I think the important issue here is what is the definition of an Imam? 

Imam = ( fallible) Jurists ( Scholars of Fiqh / Jurisprudence)

Imam = ( fallible ) Scholars

Imam = ( fallible )  Collectors of Hadith / Tradition 

Imam = ( fallible)  Political Leader. 

The Above terminology is common in Non Shia. 

2) If the Twelve Imams ( as) are their imams. In what respect? They should be the only Imams not others like the four fiqh schools or collectors of hadith etc.....

3) You love the Truth and you disassociate from falsehood. You can Not love both or send blessings on both. The oppressor and the oppressed. If the twelve Imams are the true imams in their view, in this case their rights were usurped. ( Period) - disassociate from the ones who oppressed them. ( 1:7) 

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ {5}

[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

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(4) There is difference in community appointed imams and Divinely appointed Imams(عليه السلام).