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In the Name of God بسم الله

An objection to "Divine Simplicity":

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3 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

because it is impossible for knowledge to be knowledgeable! Therefore, had He been knowledge, it would be invalid to say that He is Knowledgeable, and from there, that He would have any Attribute.

Salam,

So do you mean to say knowledge is something which increases something in God? That is to say knowledge makes God knowledgeable???

And power is something which increases something in God? That is to say power makes God powerful?

 

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Posted (edited)

You're over-complicating it, really.

To destroy himself would imply that he has dominated or overpowered himself. God destroying himself would also imply that God has knowledge of how to destroy himself. No such knowledge exists, because God himself is eternal and cannot cease to exist. This is how the knowledge and power attributes do connect to each other.

All-Powerful, All-Seeing, All-Hearing are all distinguished insofar as their meanings are concerned at the level of multiplicity; they do not stand distinct at the innermost level of objective reality (i.e. divine nature). The sages described it more beautifully than I could.

Edited by Ibn-e-Muhammad
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19 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

It is impossible for the Knowledge to be Him because it is impossible for knowledge to be knowledgeable!

You need to clarify this a bit. What is knowledge? Is it not a mere sense of knowing? And in that sense, the sense of knowledge is not identical to self? Where does the sense of knowing resides? 

I think in the sphere of self, to exist & to know are identical.

There is a concept of علم الحضوري or knowledge by presence, in Islamic philosophy. I would suggest you to go through it. 

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22 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

It is impossible for the Knowledge to be Him because it is impossible for knowledge to be knowledgeable! Therefore, had He been knowledge, it would be invalid to say that He is Knowledgeable, and from there, that He would have any Attribute.

Salam a counterexample for refuting it is Artificial Intelligence (AI)  which is a knowlege  which can be knowledgeable too so therefore AI is a knowledge which will be Knowledgeable in near future which also it also can make new knowledge by himself even it can create another AI & destroys itself  according to it's creators so then when we can iamgine such attributes for our creation even give godly attributes to it so therefore your argument is totally void because again to have tried to describe Allah as a limited being which has lesser power than AI which is our creation.

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On 12/21/2021 at 7:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

I wonder why there is a problem to begin with.

Why don't we start with the fact (not a claim) that Allah is All Perfect. That there are no flaws in what He creates and His attributes.

When He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is All Perfect, then there is no reason to question His power or knowledge. One can only wonder "Why?" Because we with our limited knowledge and reasoning, we can't see  beyond unless we are given the knowledge and that too, the knowledge, comes from His permission. Just like how the previous prophets were given miracles (this can only happen with His Permission).

For example, you are a full grown adult. You won't gorge out your own eyeballs right? Why? It's against your wisdom.  And that itself is not a weakness.

And when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is all Perfect, it also means He is all Just. (that is also one of Shia's primary beliefs). So just because He has the knowledge and power, it is not Him to put an innocent man in hell. It is not a question of whether He can or cannot, it is just impossible. If He can do that, then I wouldn't worship Him.

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On 2/6/2022 at 3:52 AM, .InshAllah. said:

This argument rests on the premise that: if 2 attributes have the same reality in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then their scope is the same.  I'm not sure that that's true (at least there is a lot of ambiguity here that needs clarifying), but even if it is true you haven't shown that power and knowledge have different scopes.

Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) power does 'connect' to His essence - He can 'make' Himself (his essence) act, which is just to say He can act freely.  Compare: do you have any control over yourself?

You said that Allah can't destroy Himself which is true, but neither does He have the knowledge to destroy Himself.  

wow this one is very intriguing... I don't know if I can understand that.  I guess it just another way of saying "it just not possible for Him to do that"

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On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same

How can one know without having the power of knowing? And how can one act without the knowledge of anything? 

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The distinction between Allahs Attributes of Essence & Actions is for our understanding only, because we are in time. There is no distinction for Allah, because he is not in time. So in reality, there is no distinction. Then why do Shias say His attributes of Essence is His Essence but His attributes of actions is not His Essence? You can read detailed about it in this thread:

 

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14 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

There is no distinction for Allah, because he is not in time

There certainly remains a distinction between God's being and His actions even if you remove time from the picture. 

His actions are not His essence.

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14 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

The distinction between Allahs Attributes of Essence & Actions is for our understanding only, because we are in time. There is no distinction for Allah, because he is not in time

So this means our "understanding" is wrong. It would be a misunderstanding rather than understanding. 

What I mean when I said "for our understanding" was that the "division" of divine attributes into two groups i.e., attribute of essence & attribute of actions, is for our understanding. So that we can understand that a creator is a creator only with reference to creation.

Attributes of essence has nothing to do with other living/non-living objects. 

Life is an attribute which we ascribe to Allah"s Essence as far as the very Essence is concerned, not that something comes forth from the Essence.

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On 12/21/2021 at 2:59 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

Hi, can we come in term that there are 3 main attributes which we can put in a spectrum (1D, 2D or 3D spectrum) and thus all other attributes are in-between these three. Those attributes are حي Hayat (having being); ilm (having knowledge) and ghodrat (being able to, having power).

Now when you say connect, do those two attributes do not connect to Hayat?! When we say وجود or وجود مطلق manoeuvre on the attribute of Hayat! Being حي is more essential than knowledge, indeed the core of two main attributes which is knowledge & power... Or the core and barzakh of all attributes...

قدرت-حي-علم

قدرت-علم-حي

علم-قدرت-حي

حي-قدرت-علم

حي-علم-قدرت

علم-حي-قدرت

I see you like Philosophy; thus to you I introduce mullasadra.org

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