An objection to "Divine Simplicity":

[Ibn Murtuz]

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ibn Murtuz

[Dave follower of The Way]

Hi this is an interesting question and I wonder if the problem lies in the statement "Divine Simplicity"

Can the divine be simple?  I would suggest that this is a contradiction.

By defintion the divine - God, Allah - is different from his creation.  He made humans and so we are inferior to him.

When we seek to "understand" the divine we must recognise that we will never succeed because he is ultimatly different from us and beoynd our understanding.  If this were not the case we would be equal to God.

How then can with our limited minds say God is simple or there is a divine simplicity?  God has chosen to reveal something of himself.  Among those things is that he is all powerful and also that he is all knowing.  We need to take these things and understand them in the context of other things he has revieled about himself.  He is completly just and completly pure and good.  Therefore his power is limited by his charactar,  He is all powerful but will not (can not?) use that power to do something wrong or evil or unjust.  Having said this we are still left awestruck by God's majesty and complexity which makes him beyond our compehention or our desire to put the divine in our little box of human logic.

As a Follower of Jesus the Messiah I rejoice that while remining completly 'other' God humbled himself to come and live among us.  In Jesus the Messiah we see God in a way we can begin to grasp and relate to. - see this saying of Jesus recorded faithfully in the Injil. (John Chapter 14)

⁵ Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

⁶ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

⁸ Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

⁹ Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work

[Abu Nur]

The Attributes of Perfection of God are identical with His Essence. That is, although they differ in terms of meaning (mafhūm), in terms of applicability (miṣdāq) they are in unison. In other words, it is not the case that the Essence of God, on one hand, is All-knowing, and on the other hand, All-powerful and Sovereign; rather, His knowledge, power and will are His very Essence, because if the Attributes of God were extraneous to His Essence and distinct from each other, this implies a sort of multiplicity (kathrah), compositeness (tarkīb) and limitation (maḥdūdiyyah) in the Divine Essence, and all these characteristics cannot be applied to God.

Moreover, in originating the creatures and bestowing knowledge and power to them, He would be in need of His Attributes (Knowledge and Power) which are assumed to be distinct from His Essence, and neediness is contradictory to God as the Necessary Being and Self-sufficient.

We shall explain the Unity of the Divine Essence and Attributes in terms of applicability, and their multiplicity and variance in terms of meaning by citing two examples:

1. The human being is knowledgeable of himself; that is, he has knowledge by presence or intuitive knowledge (‘ilm-e ḥudūrī). Here, we can infer three concepts, viz. the knowledge (‘ilm), the knower (‘ālim) and the known (ma‘lūm). This is while the applicability of all is something other than his person; that is, his person is the applicability of the knowledge, the knower as well as the known.

2. In comparison to God, every creature is the created (makhlūq), the known (ma‘lūm) as well as the possible (maqdūr). So, while reality is one thing, different meanings of it can be abstracted. Of course, in abstracting different meanings from a reality, different signifiers can be considered, but these signifiers have subjective multiplicity and not objective.

The same is true with the abstraction of the different meanings and attributes of the Indivisible Essence of God. The notion of the extraneousness of the Attributes from the Essence and their distinction from the Essence as propounded by the Sunnī Ash‘arīs is thus incorrect, and the doctrine of the identicalness of the Attributes with the Essence as maintained by the Imāmiyyah and Mu‘tazilīs is correct and firm.

[Ibn Murtuz]

@Abu Nur So Shias believe the scope of divine power and the scope divine knowledge is same? Then how do you answer the objection above?

[Ashvazdanghe]

19 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

Salam you have put your logic on wrong base because  you as limited being want to analyze  an unlimited being which you & nobody else have full knowledge  about him which your he is source & creator of everything  so therefore he is source of all good which deficiency  likewise self destruction  doesn't  relate to him because  only limited being which has boundaries  & measured quality & quantity  can destroys itself which non of these attributes relates to Allah so therefore you wrongly have assumed that you have full knowledge  about Allah which makes him a limited being in similar fashion which Salafis/Wahabis have considered physical attributes  likewise having hands & leg which has a body which he is aascending  & descending  from throne or sits on it or ytravels by a donkey between skies & earth which is totally  wrong .

[Abu Nur]

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something that divine power does not connect to,

This is the problem. Because a contradiction as itself cannot be done, so it is not releated to God Essence and power in the first place, so it has nothing to do with connecting to. If it was, then a limitation will occur, that God can not do a particular thing, thus its limits Him.

Also this kind of objections are derived from human thoughts that have Quantities God.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 12/22/2021 at 7:12 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you have put your logic on wrong base because  you as limited being want to analyze  an unlimited being which you & nobody else have full knowledge  about him which your he is source & creator of everything  so therefore he is source of all good which deficiency  likewise self destruction  doesn't  relate to him because  only limited being which has boundaries  & measured quality & quantity  can destroys itself which non of these attributes relates to Allah so therefore you wrongly have assumed that you have full knowledge  about Allah which makes him a limited being in similar fashion which Salafis/Wahabis have considered physical attributes  likewise having hands & leg which has a body which he is aascending  & descending  from throne or sits on it or ytravels by a donkey between skies & earth which is totally  wrong .

Thanks for supporting my comment.  I can not understand the problem that @Ibn Murtuz puts forward.

Why should we be struggling to understand why and how God's power and knowledge interact?  Aren't there more important things about God that we should be thinking about?  How Can we know God better?  How can we live a life that pleases God?  How can we receive God's power to defeat evil and spiritual forces?

May I suggest that as we get to know God personally as our Father and Friend many of these esoteric, philosophical and human based logical conundrums fade into insignificance because of the joy and freedom of a daily walk with the living loving God, whose power to love knows no end and whose knowledge no one can fathom.

[Ibn Murtuz]

I have another question.

Do Shias believe Allahs knowledge about Himself, His Knowledge of everything other than Himself and Essence of Allah are all same?

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/4/2022 at 3:04 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

Do Shias believe Allahs knowledge about Himself, His Knowledge of everything other than Himself and Essence of Allah are all same?

Salam there is no ignorance  in Allah as most prefect being but on the other hand we as creators suffer from  ignorance  which our understanding  from him comes from sayings of infallible  Imams likewise  Imam Ali(عليه السلام) which you can find in Nahjul balagha so therefore your questioning  is false because  you want to analyze him based on  your limit & ignorance  toward him which you can just analyze his creation  not him to understand  his knowledge  from study of his creation.

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whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: ‘In what is He?’, held that He is contained; and whoever said: ‘On what is He?’, held He is not on something else.

 

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Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described

Imam Ali describes Beautiful Creation Of Allah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcU6rK5Kv-4

[Ashvazdanghe]

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1- According to the Shia and many of the Sunnis, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bears no material body allowing us to say He is made of different parts and consider Him similar to other beings and creatures. That’s why we can't take some Quranic verses that attribute physical parts such as a face[2], hand[3], foot[4], eye[5], ear[6], etc. to Him for their literal meaning and are actually figures of speech that have an inner meaning and must be interpreted as Allah’s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knowledge, power, existence, etc. This is why for instance when it is said that Adam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was created by the hand of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), what is meant is that he was created by the power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

2- In many cases, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributes what others apparently have done themselves and with their own hands to Himself, for example, He says that He is the one who provides the people with ships[7], although we all know that it is man who builds the ship, not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)!

Of course, since man’s power is in continuation and a part of Allah’s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), explaining such a verse and understanding its true meaning isn't difficult, and in a sense, man and everything he has made are in reality, a creation of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).[8]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa8168

[SoRoUsH]

On 12/21/2021 at 7:29 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

سلام

First, there's a distinction between attributes of Allah and essence of Allah. And we shouldn't talk about His essence, since it's incomprehensible to us.

Second, knowledge and power are essence of Allah, not qualifications that Allah uses to describe Himself. 

Knowledge and power of Allah are His essence and His essence is one and is simple. "In" His essence, there is no distinction between knowledge and power. 

It's a mistake to claim His power and knowledge do/don't include His essence. Rather you should say, His power and knowledge are necessarily part and parcel of His essence.  In other words, there's no separation among, His essence, power, and knowledge. All are one and the same.

Edited January 5, 2022 by SoRoUsH

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:04 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

Allahs knowledge about Himself,

Are you asking whether God is "self aware"?  My perspective is that knowledge and essence are two different dimensions of the multifacited God.

For me the important question is not what does God know about himself, but what does he know about me?

My response to that question is not just nice philosophical discussion but it impacts my life and causes me to consider my very inner being.

God who is all knowing sees my secret thoughts and attitudes.  He responds to what he sees and knows about me with the very essence of his being - Love.

He loves me dispite my shame and dirt and draws me to himself and covers me with love and compassion.

I praise God for his all encompassing knowledge and his infinite essence of love.

[Abu Nur]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:04 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

I have another question.

Do Shias believe Allahs knowledge about Himself, His Knowledge of everything other than Himself and Essence of Allah are all same?

The Attributes of Essence of Allah is not distinct from one another. This is because God is Simple and He does not have parts or components in Him, like an contingent beings that have created attributes that are distinct from one another.

If you accept the concept of Nothing is like Him. Then you need to admit that He is different in Essence than contingent beings, thus He can not have structure of parts like contingent beings have that differ from each other.

The reason why you have such a hard time to understand this part is because your mind can only grasp intellect, power, goodness etc as distinct attributes, since they exist distinct from one another in the things of our expirence. Applying this grasping to God does not work at all.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Abu Nur

[SoRoUsH]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:04 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

I have another question.

Do Shias believe Allahs knowledge about Himself, His Knowledge of everything other than Himself and Essence of Allah are all same?

Yes. 

[SoRoUsH]

9 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Yes. 

I'll add a bit more. 

To separate God's knowledge from God's essence is a mistake. Knowledge is God's essence. In other words, God do any have knowledge of Himself, God is knowledge. 

[Guest Borntowitness]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

How divine power does not include divine knowledge? And, why would the need to destroy himself arise?

These philosophies are useless as they do not serve any purpose of enhancing one's faith. 

[Guest Borntowitness]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

Can I ask how divine power is excluded from divine Essence?

[Guest Borntowitness]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

It is to be noted that it is through God's power that creation cannot fight him. Here, power seems to be included in God's Essence. It can be concluded, thus, that power is not separate entity when we speak about God. God is power as is said by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that God is time. 

I think our small brains are unfit to understand Him as to what is He. Therefore, one should stay away from discussions where one cannot build arguments on firm foundations for this will result in perplexity and diversion.

[Guest Borntowitness]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

I also want to add this that question of "Destroying oneself" is irrelevant in terms of God because death or destruction is creation itself and hence related to creation not the creator.

If you want to think about God think about Him like Imam Muhammad al Baqir (عليه السلام) said: "Think of God unlike creation". In which case, we fail. 

Regards

[Abu Nur]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:08 PM, Guest Borntowitness said:

These philosophies are useless as they do not serve any purpose of enhancing one's faith. 

Actually it is opposite, it is through the valid and certainty arguments of metaphysics that you can also derive that God is Simple. 

It is trough intellect that flourish one faith. 

So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to intellect (ta’aqul) and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the chests. (22:46)

Edited January 17, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Guest Borntowitness]

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Actually it is opposite, it is through the valid and certainty arguments of metaphysics that you can also derive that God is Simple. 

It is trough intellect that flourish one faith. 

So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to intellect (ta’aqul) and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the chests. (22:46)

I agree my implication was towards philosophies which lack firm foundation. If we think about Power of God, it works at infinite spheres, we cannot ,thus, deduce that power is not the essence because of an irrelevant question "whether God can destroy himself or not" because as said earlier "a thing assembled or formed can be destroyed" God is neither assembled nor formed so such statements does apply to Him. 

These are which I referred to as useless philosophies or may be I'm wrong to even consider them as philosophies rather should call it irrelevant statements.

[Dave follower of The Way]

13 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to intellect (ta’aqul) and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the chests. (22:46)

tafsir of ibn-kathir refers to this verse that God has given people much evidence of his judgment and we need to use our minds to respond to it

"Some of the wise people said, `Give life to your heart with lessons, illuminate it with thought, kill it with asceticism, strengthen it with certain faith, remind it of its mortality, make it aware of the calamities of this world, warn it of the disasters that life may bring, show it how things may suddenly change with the passing of days, tell it the stories of the people of the past, and remind it what happened to those who came before.''' Walk through their ruins, see what they did and what became of them, meaning, look at the punishments and divine wrath that struck the nations of the past who belied,

the blind person is not the one whose eyes cannot see, but rather the one who has no insight. Even if the physical eyes are sound, they still cannot learn the lesson.

I am challenged by this.  We can talk about God and discuss his atributes and essence and still be blind because we haven't responded to who he is and haven't welcomed him into our hearts.  What is true insight?  Is it just intelectual discussion and logical argument? 

I would suggest that faith grows through letting God plant truth in our hearts and cultivating it through a relationship with him - the living, active, loving God.

[Abu Nur]

 

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What is true insight?  Is it just intelectual discussion and logical argument? 

Who said Intellect means exactly reasoning or intectual argumenting? It is exatly the perfection of Intellect that made the Prophets as prophet. All the human traits are connected with Intellect, and all the opposite traits are connected with Ignorance.

Imam Musa Ibn Ja’far al- Kadhim (عليه السلام) said: "O Hisham! The Commander of the Faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) always stated, 'God has never been worshipped any better than when He has been worshipped with the Intellect. No one's intellect is perfected unless he acquires good characteristics.'"

Good article:

http://themuslimtheist.com/the-aql-is-not-reason-its-consciousness/

Edited January 18, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Guest Borntowitness]

8 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We can talk about God and discuss his atributes and essence and still be blind because we haven't responded to who he is and haven't welcomed him into our hearts.

Bro, I think we all know much about God what exactly you want know about God.

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:02 PM, Abu Nur said:

Who said Intellect means exactly reasoning or intectual argumenting? It is exatly the perfection of Intellect that made the Prophets as prophet. All the human traits are connected with Intellect, and all the opposite traits are connected with Ignorance.

Are we in the danger of putting intellect and reasoning above God?  We live in an age where science and logic and the power of the human mind has marginalised God.  It is important that people of faith don't get drawn into the same trap.  God is able to transform our minds, he can give supernatural insight and wisdom.  I pray each day for God to help me to live with a Godly mind which thinks his thoughts after him.

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 1/18/2022 at 6:24 PM, Guest Borntowitness said:

Bro, I think we all know much about God what exactly you want know about God.

Friend, my point is that knowing about God is not enough.  It is just information or speculation.  What is important - in fact vital - it to know God.  To know God is to have an intimate relationship with him.   To know him as a freind, a brother, a parent.  As I live my life in relationship with God I discover amazing and wonderful things about who he is and how he acts, I also discover new things about myself, some of which I rejoice over and some of which I need to sort out with his help.

[Abu Nur]

6 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Are we in the danger of putting intellect and reasoning above God?  We live in an age where science and logic and the power of the human mind has marginalised God.  It is important that people of faith don't get drawn into the same trap.  God is able to transform our minds, he can give supernatural insight and wisdom.  I pray each day for God to help me to live with a Godly mind which thinks his thoughts after him.

You surely did not understand what I said. 

[Dave follower of The Way]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:02 PM, Abu Nur said:

It is exatly the perfection of Intellect that made the Prophets as prophet. All the human traits are connected with Intellect, and all the opposite traits are connected with Ignorance.

 

On 1/21/2022 at 4:44 PM, Abu Nur said:

You surely did not understand what I said. 

I'm sorry I didn't understand. - Let's have another go!

What is a perfect intellect?  Surly God is the only one who is perfect.

What human traits are conected with intellect and which ones connected to ignorance?  Are you suggesting that itellect and ignorance are opposites?

[Abu Nur]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:46 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

 

I'm sorry I didn't understand. - Let's have another go!

What is a perfect intellect?  Surly God is the only one who is perfect.

What human traits are conected with intellect and which ones connected to ignorance?  Are you suggesting that itellect and ignorance are opposites?

Ill going to list both traits:

The seventy-five troops are as follows: Goodness is the minister for the intellect, and evil is the minister for ignorance; faith for the intellect, and infidelity for ignorance; acceptance for the intellect, and rejection for ignorance; hope for the intellect, and despair for ignorance; justice for the intellect, and oppression for ignorance; contentment for the intellect, and discontent for ignorance; gratitude for the intellect, and ingratitude for ignorance; lack of hope (in God’s Mercy) for the intellect, and greed (in God’s Mercy) for ignorance; reliance on God for intellect, and greed for ignorance; kindness for the intellect, and ruthlessness for ignorance; mercy for the intellect, and anger for ignorance; knowledge for the intellect, and ignorance for ignorance; understanding for the intellect, and stupidity for ignorance; chastity for the intellect, and vulgarity for ignorance; abstinence for the intellect, and materialism for ignorance; kindness for the intellect, and violence for ignorance; solemnity for the intellect, and insolence for ignorance; humbleness for the intellect, and haughtiness for ignorance; calm for the intellect, and rush for ignorance; patience for the intellect, and being feeble-minded for ignorance; silence for the intellect, and being talkative for ignorance; compliance for the intellect, and conceit for ignorance; submission for the intellect, and being oppressive for ignorance; forgiveness for the intellect, and animosity for ignorance; amiability for the intellect, and ruthlessness for ignorance; certitude for the intellect, and doubt for ignorance; perseverance for the intellect, and anxiety for ignorance; pardon for the intellect, and revenge for ignorance; self-sufficiency for the intellect, and poverty for ignorance; pondering for the intellect, and neglect for ignorance; memorizing for the intellect, and forgetting for ignorance; loving for the intellect, and enmity for ignorance; obeying for the intellect, and rebelling for ignorance; contentment for the intellect, and greed for ignorance; justice for the intellect, and injustice for ignorance; friendship for the intellect, and enmity for ignorance; loyalty for the intellect, and treachery for ignorance; humbleness for the intellect, and arrogance for ignorance; right for the intellect, and wrong for ignorance; health for the intellect, and affliction for ignorance; love for the intellect, and hate for ignorance; honesty for the intellect, and telling lies for ignorance; trustworthiness for the intellect, and treason for ignorance; sincerity for the intellect, and corruption for ignorance; bravery for the intellect, and stupidity for ignorance; understanding for the intellect, and ignorance for ignorance; recognition for the intellect, and denial for ignorance; putting up with other people’s minor mistakes for the intellect, and divulging other people’s minor mistakes for ignorance; keeping other’s secrets for the intellect, and divulging other’s secrets for ignorance; hiding for the intellect, and divulging for ignorance; praying for the intellect, and neglecting (prayers) for ignorance; fasting for the intellect, and breaking fast for ignorance; engaging in Jihad (Holy War) for the intellect, and refusal to testify for ignorance; pilgrimage for the intellect, and breaking covenant for ignorance; keeping secrets for the intellect, and slandering for ignorance; being kind to parents for the intellect, and being cursed by parents for ignorance; truth for the intellect, and hypocrisy for ignorance; good for the intellect, and evil for ignorance; covering oneself for the intellect, and playing up a woman’s charms for ignorance; covering up for the intellect, and making up oneself for ignorance; concealment for the intellect and divulging for ignorance; being fair for the intellect, and siding with the wrong for ignorance; making up for the husband for the intellect, and fornication for ignorance; cleanliness for the intellect, and filthiness for ignorance; shyness for the intellect, and taking off clothing for ignorance; assuming a mediators position for the intellect, and aggression for ignorance; comfort for the intellect, and hard work for ignorance; easiness for the intellect, and hardship for ignorance; abundance of blessings for the intellect, and scarcity for ignorance; health for the intellect, and affliction for ignorance; reasonable wealth for the intellect, and hoarding for ignorance; wisdom for the intellect, and selfish desires for ignorance; dignity for the intellect, and humility for ignorance; prosperity for the intellect, and ruin for ignorance; repentance for the intellect, and insistence on sin for ignorance; asking for forgiveness for the intellect, and being too proud for ignorance; protection for the intellect, and neglect for ignorance; performing supplications for the intellect, and abandoning supplications for ignorance; joy for the intellect, and boredom for ignorance; happiness for the intellect, and sorrow for ignorance; intimacy for the intellect, and anger for ignorance; generosity for the intellect, and stinginess for ignorance. All the characteristics which are the troops of the intellect will only be present in the Prophet (MGB) or the Imams (MGB) or a believer who has tested his heart with faith. However, other friends of ours have some of these and can slowly attain the rest and avoid the troops of ignorance. Then they will reach the high ranks of the Prophets and the Imams. This prosperity is only obtained by the recognition of the intellect and its troops, and by avoiding ignorance and its troops. May God assist both you and us in obeying and pleasing Him.”

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What is a perfect intellect?  Surly God is the only one who is perfect.

Perfected not in the sense of perfection of God, we never compare anything to God. When we say The Prophet perfected the Intellect, it means that they actualize these good traits in the best possible matter.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Abu Nur

[.InshAllah.]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:29 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

This argument rests on the premise that: if 2 attributes have the same reality in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then their scope is the same.  I'm not sure that that's true (at least there is a lot of ambiguity here that needs clarifying), but even if it is true you haven't shown that power and knowledge have different scopes.

Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) power does 'connect' to His essence - He can 'make' Himself (his essence) act, which is just to say He can act freely.  Compare: do you have any control over yourself?

You said that Allah can't destroy Himself which is true, but neither does He have the knowledge to destroy Himself.  

[Mohammad farid]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:29 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

"Divine Simplicity" is the claim that all Attributes of Essence are same as Allah.

According to this model, divine power and divine knowledge of Allah would be same.

But the problem is, scope of divine power is not the same as the scope of divine knowledge. Divine knowledge includes God's Essence (He knows Himself) but divine power does not include God's Essence (He cannot destroy Himself, for example). Since divine knowledge connects to something that divine power does not connect to, they are not same.

Critics of the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity (DDS) argue that if DDS is true, then, the divine attribute of knowledge is identical to the divine attribute of power. And if the attribute of knowledge is identical to the attribute of power, then, the scope of knowledge is the same as the scope of power. But divine knowledge applies to both the contingent beings, as well as the Essence of the Necessary-in-itself, because the First Truth knows both the contingent beings, that are His effects, and He also apprehends or perceives His [own] Essence, whereas divine power only applies to that which is possible-in-itself, and does not apply to that which is impossible-in-itself nor to the Necessary in itself. Hence, it is not appropriate to say that the First Truth has power over His [own] Essence. But if the First Truth does not have power over His [own] Essence, then, the scope of power is not identical to the scope of knowledge, that is to say, that the attribute of power is not the same as the attribute of knowledge, and, therefore, DDS is false.

The above argument erroneously presupposes that divine power does not apply to the Necessary in itself. Divine Power can be considered in relation to that which is other than the First Truth (i.e the possible-in-itself and the impossible-in-itself), and it can also be considered in relation to the First Truth. The applicability of divine power to the possible-in-itself is not in need of any explanation, and the impossible-in-itself is impossible with respect to existence, from the aspect of primary predication, but it is possible-in-itself with respect to existence, from the aspect of common predication, in which respect it is an accident, since it is a psychic quality or a knowledge form, as has been discussed elsewhere [refer to ]. And as far as the question of the applicability of divine power to the Essence of the First Truth is concerned, then, let it be known, that the First Truth has the power to know His [own] Essence, through which He knows Himself, and, therefore, divine power applies to the Essence of the First Truth as well, and, consequently, the scope of power is the same as the scope of knowledge, that is to say, that the attribute of power is identical to the attribute of knowledge, and Divine Simplicity is true. If it is said that power is the emanation of the act, from the essence of the agent, with the agent’s knowledge and will, then, we would respond by saying that this description of power is true when considered in relation to the contingent beings, but when considered in relation to the Essence of the First Truth, power is the ability of the Necessary in itself to apprehend His [own] Essence.

[Mohammad farid]

On 1/4/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

I have another question.

Do Shias believe Allahs knowledge about Himself, His Knowledge of everything other than Himself and Essence of Allah are all same?

God knows through ilm al huduri or knowledge by presence 

Since God knows himself and he is the cause of everything and his essence implies creation by knowing his infinite self he has the knowledge of everything that his essence entails so his 

What you're thinking about is prupositional knowledge Which we don't affirm for God as that would limit his knowledge and he wouldn't be an infinite in all respects 

Salam alykum wa rahmatullah hi wa barakatu

[Ibn Murtuz]

To say that He is His Attributes is to deny His Self because a self is not an attribute. It is impossible for the Knowledge to be Him because it is impossible for knowledge to be knowledgeable! Therefore, had He been knowledge, it would be invalid to say that He is Knowledgeable, and from there, that He would have any Attribute.

https://islamicknowledge.org/the-attributes-of-allah-are-not-him-nor-other-than-him/

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

To say that He is His Attributes is to deny His Self because a self is not an attribute. 

This is because you assume that for God And His attributes there must be an distinction. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says that to deny Him attributes is pure tawheed, this is because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that if we consider that an attribute is different from the self (that attribute is not self), then for God this would mean that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributes are different from His Essence thus they are distinct from each other and thus we have made parts of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that leads to kufr.

In short: Allah is All Knowing and All Knowing is Allah. And not that Allah is All Knowing and All Knowing is Not Allah, this is what Christians derive from trinity when they say Son and the Father are equal but distinct from each other.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Ethics]

I think the brother does not understand tawheed properly. He keeps putting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His attributes into the limited human grasp. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is above not only human understanding but the human language we use to describe Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But due to our limited nature in both understanding and language we must use the infinite nature of such attributes and descriptions since that is literally all we can do. That is why Allah describes Himself to us in the holy quran as THE most merciful not just merciful. Being THE most merciful, means Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not only encompasses such an attribute but is far above it (infinity). Therefore no, saying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has attributes does not deny Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) anything, it is how we are able to understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through limited human understanding and language. It is only in your head because you are saying since you cannot describe him through the limited language humans have, it then somehow means Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is less. Not only that but you keep trying to bring human behavior and characteristics into the realm of the All Mighty which rationally does not make any sense. God is not human, we are.