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In the Name of God بسم الله

The world needs women in leadership?


notme

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In government at national and more local levels, women leaders are associated with fewer deaths and faster action. In companies, women leaders have proven more motivating and communicative during a period of fear and isolation.

However, according to the Women’s World Atlas, only four countries have achieved parity between women and men in parliament, and the world is completely absent of countries in which public limited companies (those reporting to investors) have equal numbers of women to men on their boards.

The Dominican Republic and Eswatini are the only countries in the world where women and men in senior and middle management are at parity

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/11/why-female-leadership-is-crucial-to-tackle-climate-change/

And definitely do check out the graphic in the article comparing women leaders with men leaders. Higher levels of empathy are a positive not a negative leadership quality. 

https://i.postimg.cc/X7pftWNL/Screenshot-20211205-093237.png

I don't know if it's rooted in culture or biology, but my observation has been that women are better leaders, and are more likely to take charge in crisis situations, and also are less likely to be given credit for their leadership. 

Comments? Thoughts? 

Edited by notme
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Maybe we should have cats lead lions too while we are at it.

*sarcasm*

Is there no end time hadith about woman in leadership of men?

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33 minutes ago, slavelight said:

Is there no end time hadith about woman in leadership of men?

Please share them. The purpose of a discussion forum is discussion. I'd like to look at hadith and current sociological research together. 

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1 hour ago, slavelight said:

and youngsters become rulers

We need this too, but it's an entire other discussion. We need to get these progress impeding boomers retired before they kill us all! 

Thanks for sharing these two hadith. 

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I think we need to define what are the essential qualities of leadership. In the Western, non muslim world, a leader is someone who has charisma and persuasive ability. They have the ability to get people to do certain things that benefit the leaders and their sponsors. Mostly this means getting people to do things on a macro level, like in a business or corporation. This is done by promises and threats. This ability to get people to do things, even though sometimes they might not want to do them, is the essential quality of leadership on the Western, non muslim world. This is an acquired skill, mostly, and traditionally only men have been taught this skill. Now that women are being taught this skill, there are women leaders. 

In Islam, the goal of leadership is not to get people to do things that will benefit those 'higher ups' in the chain, but to get people to do things that will benefit them, both in this life and the next, and by benefitting them, it will also benefit their community, and the world in general. The three essential qualities in a leader, in Islam are Ilm (knowledge), Adilat (justice), and Zuhd (their primary motivation for doing something is for the next life, and not for this one only). Ilm meaning they have knowledge of Islam, and specifically the Sharia, and they have knowledge necessary in whatever field they are a leader in. A leader in the field of Medicine must know about medicine, and a leader in the field of Technology must know about the specific technologies him/ her is called to lead people in developing. Adilat, Justice, means that they don't violate the Sharia (Clear Islamic rulings) in either their personal life or when they carry out the activities of leadership in their specific field. Zuhd, (no word for word translation in English) means they are motivated by seeking the pleasure of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and not only to get something in this dunya(lower life). If someone has those three qualities, they are fit for leadership. If they don't, they are not. Having all three of these qualities is rare, though having maybe one or two of them is not that rare. It is rare both in men and women. If a women has these qualities, then she is fit for leadership, if she doesn't she isn't. 

The personification of all three of these qualities is Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), Imams of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), and famous women throughout history such as Fatima((عليه السلام)), who leads all other women in these, and then others like Maryam, mother of Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)), Asiya, wife of Pharoh((عليه السلام)), and Zainab((عليه السلام)), daughter of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), and Fatima((عليه السلام)). 

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Ironically, “modernist” Islamists such as Maududi have played a role in depopulation by ensuring women’s partial economic independence, i.e., by averring that Islam permits women to seek divorce, own assets, and sign contracts:

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Maududi claimed that the two most complex yet critical questions for thinkers and scholars across time and cultures had remained the following: first, how to balance the relationship between men and women in collective life, and second, how to calibrate the relationship between the individual and the collective. … However, in their views about women these early Christians were, according to Maududi, “extremists” and “against human nature”. … This led to a situation where women lost all economic power to men and became their property, lost the ability to divorce their husbands, and remarriage became disfavoured.This distinction had become an important theme in Muslim modernist writings of the late nineteenth century

This point of justice has to be that on the one hand a woman is able to develop her personality and her abilities to their fullest, and that she is able to participate in the development of human civilisation with well-honed abilities, …

The tensions in his thought—between explicitly accepting the spiritual, legal and political equality of women as well as their ‘equi-potentiality’ and insisting on an unequal division of authority with men and differentiation of their social roles—has produced complex results. … At the same time, in combination with factors such as demographic changes and increased literacy rates, these tensions have provided openings that have meant that women in the JI have come to play an important role within and through the party. … These women have used arguments about their spiritual equality in Maududi's writings to argue for greater responsibility and involvement in political mobilisations and social institutions.

To reverse the dysgenic influence of feminism on population growth, should women revert to being men’s absolute property, as in feudal societies? Otherwise, women seemingly gain economic and thus political power that translates into feminism.

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14 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

In the Western, non muslim world, a leader is someone who has charisma and persuasive ability. They have the ability to get people to do certain things that benefit the leaders and their sponsors. Mostly this means getting people to do things on a macro level, like in a business or corporation. This is done by promises and threats.

This isn't a leader. This is a sociopath. 

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The context of the article was business and national leadership. As far as I know, there is nothing in Islam which prohibits a woman from owning or managing a business. Is there anything specifically written about women as national rulers? I know there are hadith against women being religious judges. And would it make a difference whether a woman was a leader in a secular government or in an Islamic one? 

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12 hours ago, notme said:

This isn't a leader. This is a sociopath. 

Look at how most businesses, private or corporations, political leaders, even some churches and religious organizations are run, the decisions that are made, who makes them, and who benefits (primarily) from these decisions, in a material sense. It is the top leadership. Those underneath them get the scraps from the table only. This is the norm, not the exception. The vast majority of leaders in the world today are sociopaths, if you want to call it that. They are out for their dunya, only. In Islam, these people are not qualified to be leaders, whether they are women or men. They take the leadership by force, and maintain it by force, i.e. threats and promises. If you look past the fluff, hype, and pr machine, that is what you will see. 

A mumin person would not be comfortable or be able to function in a leadership position that is based on these things. That is why we live in the world we live in today, primarily. The important decisions are made by sociopaths, and the people whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose to be leaders, i.e. those who have those three qualities listed in my previous post, are locked out of leadership positions because they are not willing to use the tactics that the sociopaths use. If the world was run by momineen and mominat you would see a completely different, and better world than we have today. 

The reason why we have the sociopaths as leaders is because the vast majority of the people accept their leadership and are satisfied with it, even though they are greatly suffering from it. Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave us, as human beings, free will, that means that we get what we choose voluntarily. If we, as a society, choose these types of leaders and accept them, then we will get more of them, and our suffering will increase, until we as a society make a different choice. This is one of the meanings of the verse in the Quran 'Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will never change the condition of a people until they change what is in their own selves'. Holy Quran 13:11

There is a famous hadith regarding this. Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) said, 'You should only hope from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and only fear your own sins'.

What it means to 'only hope from Allah(s.w.a)' is that you shouldn't look to anyone else to give you things, or look to them to solve your problems in your life or give you the rizq (sustenance). You should only ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for these things. If you start to hope in other human beings, then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will give those people power over you, and they will then subjugate you to their will. Then  you will be in a difficult position, that you have put yourself into, i.e. by placing hope in other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has designated as your leaders, i.e. the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). 

You can compare it to someone who has only ever been in abusive relationships. They think it is normal getting hit and beaten up for any little wrong thing they do, or are perceived by the abuser to have done.  It is only when they happen to find someone who doesn't do this, that they then realize that this is not normal or right, and their mentality starts to change. If, before they experience a non abusive relationship, you try to tell them to get out and that they are in danger, they won't believe you, but rather will fight you and argue with you and defend their abuser. So this is the position we are in regarding leadership at the present moment. 

As for women being forbidden from national leadership, I haven't seen anything that forbids it specifically. As long as they have those qualities (listed in my previous post) and are qualified. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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11 hours ago, notme said:

...

@notme

Regardless, as an outside observer, I can see how the ambivalence of modern-day sharia opens the door to feminism and its abuses. On one hand, the sharia supposedly intends to preserve the Muslim family by confirming the husband’s patriarchal authority. On the other hand, it empowers women to define their own roles, both within and outside the home, by permitting them to file for a divorce, own assets, sign contracts, operate businesses, and so on. By allowing women even the potential to sell their own labour-power on the market, so to speak, modern sharia implicitly provides an economic impetus for women to strain against their biological limitations and duties. By contrast, if the modern-day sharia were not so “wishy-washy” and instead unequivocally pronounced women to be men’s absolute property, certainly in the economic sense (that is, wives could not take the initiative in filing for divorce, own assets, sign contracts, operate businesses, etc.) and definitely in the political sense (that is, wives must be solely restricted to their household responsibilities and submit to their husbands unconditionally), many of the feminist abuses and excesses that result from the sharia’s ambivalence would come to a halt. In this case, women would certainly be regarded as sharing the status of slaves, but on the other hand there would be no room for feminist impulses to arise. Women’s sole reason for existence, at least theoretically, would be to perpetuate the human race, and the average female would not dare entertain notions of political or legal, much less spiritual, equality with the male. Now, this certainly sounds harsh to modern ears, but in most traditional societies, even Muslim, this was the standard arrangement, whether officially sanctioned by contemporary (Islamic) law and jurisprudence or not. It is true that the Prophet’s wife Khadijah participated in commercial affairs via household business, but some narrations (see @slavelight) suggest that this was an expeditious arrangement, a concession to the conditions prevalent at that time and place, and that, ideally, men should be in charge economically, socially, and politically, with the wife being relegated to seclusion and childrearing. Of course, I could be wrong in part or in toto.

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On 12/5/2021 at 9:24 PM, slavelight said:

“O Salman, at that time, women will be rulers and the concubines will be consulted"

https://www.al-islam.org/day-judgement-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection

Hadrat ‘Ali (‘a) said: “A time will come when corrupt and adulterous individuals will live in coquetry and bounty and the ignoble will acquire position and status while the just men will become weak.” It was asked: “When will this period come to pass?” He said: “It is at the time when women and bondswomen take charge of the affairs of the people and youngsters become rulers.”

https://www.al-islam.org/overview-mahdis-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف-government-najmuddin-tabasi/governments

These are the ones I could find. Im confident there are more, maybe some more knowledgeable brothers / sisters can find more.

Seems we are really close to the hour....

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5 hours ago, Northwest said:

On the other hand, it empowers women to define their own roles, both within and outside the home, by permitting them to file for a divorce, own assets, sign contracts, operate businesses, and so on. By allowing women even the potential to sell their own labour-power on the market, so to speak, modern sharia implicitly provides an economic impetus for women to strain against their biological limitations and duties.

Of these, as far as I know, the woman only can not initiate divorce. The rest has never been explicitly forbidden, though I acknowledge that it has been culturally unacceptable in the past. 

Can you elaborate on biological limitations with regard to business and (secular?) government leadership? 

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16 hours ago, notme said:

Of these, as far as I know, the woman only can not initiate divorce. The rest has never been explicitly forbidden, though I acknowledge that it has been culturally unacceptable in the past. 

Can you elaborate on biological limitations with regard to business and (secular?) government leadership? 

@notme

I was only referring to the fact that traditional societies defined women’s (and men’s) roles by their sex’s biological function. The feminine, or passive, principle bears offspring and therefore has traditionally been rendered absolutely subservient to the active (male) principle. This implied women’s absolute abasement before men and their being denied participation in the active world of trade, commerce, and rulership. This also denied them a share in their husband’s income, as well as the ability to even begin seeking partial economic independence. If “the rest has never been explicitly forbidden,” then why is there little historical evidence that they were not? After all, only modern-day sharia leaves these matters open questions. Historically, for the most part (perhaps there are isolated exceptions, as I conceded) there is rather scant evidence that classical Islamic law permitted women these “rights”; if it did, traditional society would have presumably been more accepting, at least culturally, of these “rights.” Of course, one may point to the fact that the Qur’ān evidently appears to ban the consumption of intoxicants such as alcohol, yet Muslim societies, whether formally or informally, continued to widely consume toxic beverages such as arrack and kumis, just as Americans and other Westerners have continued to consume alcohol, cannabis, etc. despite severe legal proscriptions, including prohibitionism and the “War on Drugs.” If classical Islamic law really did ban intoxicants in line with the Qur’ān’s injunction, then why was the consumption of arrack (derived from Arabic) and kumis (derived from Turkish) so widespread? Once again, I could be wrong, but these appear to be valid questions based on similar lines of reasoning.

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

Anything not prohibited is permitted. 

As far as I know, there are also degrees of advisability in Islam; so while something may not be explicitly prohibited, it may be inadvisable. Regarding historical records, I do recognise that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”; but I am pondering whether the modernist application of Islamic law has deviated from the classical perspective. Some of this may obviously be due to technological and economic changes, but one may rightly ask why historical Muslim and other traditionalist societies culturally disapproved of women’s participation in trade, commerce, and rulership. Is this due to Islam or culture or a syncretism—that is, a melding of both?

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30 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

Who would you prefer as a ruler; Gereta Thunberg or John Bolton?

There is never just 2 options. Neither.

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Perhaps it's a result of being raised in a matriarchal culture, but it has always seemed to me that Islam assigns the role leader to men because otherwise men would not take any responsibilities upon themselves and women would have to do all the managing, all the thinking, all the work, while the men remained lifelong babies. 

I try to raise my sons to be leaders, but society works hard against me. 

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On 12/5/2021 at 8:24 PM, slavelight said:

“O Salman, at that time, women will be rulers and the concubines will be consulted"

https://www.al-islam.org/day-judgement-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection

Hadrat ‘Ali (‘a) said: “A time will come when corrupt and adulterous individuals will live in coquetry and bounty and the ignoble will acquire position and status while the just men will become weak.” It was asked: “When will this period come to pass?” He said: “It is at the time when women and bondswomen take charge of the affairs of the people and youngsters become rulers.”

https://www.al-islam.org/overview-mahdis-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف-government-najmuddin-tabasi/governments

These are the ones I could find. Im confident there are more, maybe some more knowledgeable brothers / sisters can find more.

I'm female, and, having known of this Hadith, have always thought it meant that female leadership was harmful to society. However, reading it back, I believe it alludes to, 'the just men *becoming* weak'. In my opinion, *just* male leadership is better than female leadership as men are 100% logic whilst women are 50% logic and 50% emotion (in order to be able to raise children, not because they are less competent). However, at present, we are being led by a group of elite corrupt males (i.e. Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock, Donald Trump, among others), meaning women have had to step out of their maternal role and into traditionally male leadership roles, which isn't ideal. It's past 12 here, but these are my two cents

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1 hour ago, Shi3atAli1 said:

men are 100% logic

I don't know what men you've met in your life! The ones I've known are far more emotional than most women I've known. Logic varies by individual, not gender, in my experience. But men are way more emotional. Women cry and keep doing what needs to be done, men break down, punch walls, and so on. 

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3 hours ago, notme said:

I don't know what men you've met in your life! The ones I've known are far more emotional than most women I've known. Logic varies by individual, not gender, in my experience. But men are way more emotional. Women cry and keep doing what needs to be done, men break down, punch walls, and so on. 

I believe what he means is men solve problems like a maths equation, while women might show some empathy.

Take it like a female Judge and a male Judge, perhaps a female Judge may be more compassionate, while a male Judge may be more about sticking to the actual text of the law.

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What the world needs is less forced diversity and quotas, and simply anyone who has more merit and competence should lead.

If a woman can start a successful business then that is due to her own merit and skill, not because of her gender. Perhaps the most offensive thing the Government can do is to ensure quotas, as it seems to tap into a belief that certain groups can't make it without extra support.

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On 12/8/2021 at 4:53 PM, Revert1963 said:

Who would you prefer as a ruler; Gereta Thunberg or John Bolton?

Of course I wouldn't want John Bolton, but I don't know if I would want Gereta Thunberg, necessarily either. I am not saying she is a bad person, and she has some qualities that are admirable, like her focus, confidence, and her apparent lack of fear of speaking before world leaders. At the same time, this could be confidence, or this could be arrogance. We don't really know until she is placed in situation where her leadership is tested. She has never been in that situation, that I know of. 

Any leader who is non muslim, and lacks taqwa, either thru ignorance (which might be the case with her) or thru willful disregard, is not someone I would place confidence in. If there is no taqwa, then there is some kind of alternate agenda and motivation for them doing it. It is only when a leader places Allah(s.w.a)'s will above their will in situations where there is a conflict between the two, i.e. practices Islam, that I can be confident in their leadership. She doesn't do that, so there is no confidence there, at least for me. 

John Bolton is an obvious case because his motivations are purely selfish and evil, and that has been proven over and over again by his actions. 

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Women-النِّساء

1. Women are the greater of the two temptations.

1ـ اَلنِّساءُ أعْظَمُ الفِتْنَـتَيْنِ.

2. Women are [like] meat on the butcher’s block, except that which is protected [and defended].

2ـ اَلنِّساءُ لَحْمٌ عَلى وَضَم إلاّ ما ذُبَّ عَنْهُ.

3. Beware of evil women, and be on your guard [even] from the good among them.

3ـ اِتَّقُوا شِرارَ النِّساءِ، وكـُونُوا مِنْ خِيارِهِنَّ عَلى حَذَر.

4. Beware of excessive infatuation with women and being tempted (or deceived) by the pleasures of this world, for indeed the one who is infatuated with women faces trials and the one who is tempted by the pleasures [of this world] is abased.

4ـ إيّاكَ وكَثْرَةَ الْوَلَهِ بِالنِّساءِ، والإغْراءَ(الاِغْتِرارَ) بِلَذّاتِ الدُّنيا، فَإنَّ الْوَلِهَ بِالنِّساءِ مُمْتَحَنٌ، والغَرِيَّ بِاللَّذّاتِ مُمْتَهَنٌ.

5. Beware of consulting with women, for indeed their opinions are inclined towards immaturity and their decisions are infirm; and restrain their gazes [by keeping them behind the veil], for your veiling them is better than being suspicions about them, and their coming out [in public] is not worse than your letting one who cannot be trusted enter their abode; and if you are able to ensure that they do not get acquainted with anybody other than you then do it.

5ـ إيّاكَ ومُشاوَرَةَ النِّساءِ، فَإنَّ رَأْيَهُنَّ إلى أفَن، وعَزْمَهُنَّ إلى وَهَن، وَاكْفُفْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ أبْصارِهِنَّ، فَحِجابُكَ لَهُنَّ خَيْـرٌ مِنَ الاِرْتِيابِ بِهِنَّ، ولَيْسَ خُرُوجُهُنَّ بِشَـرّ مِنْ إدْخالِكَ مَنْ لايُوثَقُ بِِهِ عَلَيْهِنَّ، وإنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أنْ لا يَعْرِفْنَ (لا يَعْرِفَهُنَّ) غَيْرَكَ فَافْعَلْ.

6. Verily women are [only] concerned about the ornaments of this world and [creating] mischief herein.

6ـ إنَّ النِّساءَ هَمُّهُنَّ زِينَةُ الْحَياةِ الدُّنيا والْفَسادُ فِيها.

7. Being infatuated with women is the trait of the foolish.

7ـ اَلاِسْتِهْتارُ بِالنِّساءِ شِيمَةُ النَّوْكى.

8. If you see something suspicious from your women, then assign to them a guard who will watch over the old and young [among the family, and not for the women in particular as this will cause them unease], and beware not to continuously scold them for this will incite them to commit sins and make it easy for them to bear the scolding [as they will become accustomed to it].

8ـ إنْ رَأَيْتَ مِنْ نِسائِكَ ريبَةً، فاجْعَلْ لَهُنَّ النَّكِيرَ عَلَى الكَبِيرِ والصَّغِيرِ وإيّاكَ أنْ تُـكَرِّرَ الْعَتْبَ، فَإنَّ ذلِكَ يُغْرِي بِالذَّنْبِ، ويُهَوِّنُ العَتْبَ.

9. The best of traits for women is the worst of traits for men.

9ـ خَيْرُ خِصالِ النِّساءِ شَـرُّ خِصالِ الرِّجالِ.

10. Obedience to women is the height of ignorance.

10ـ طاعَةُ النِّساءِ غايَةُ الْجَهْلِ.

11. Obedience to women degrades the noble ones and destroys the intelligent ones.

11ـ طاعَةُ النِّساءِ تُزْرِي بِالنُّبَلاءِ وتُرْدِي الْعُقَلاءَ.

12. Obedience to women is the trait of the foolish.

12ـ طاعَةُ النِّساءِ شِيمَةُ الحَمْقى.

13. Whoever [constantly] delights in women, his mind gets corrupted.

13ـ مَنِ اسْتَمْتَعَ بِالنِّساءِ فَسَدَ عَقْلُهُ.

14. People! Verily women are deficient in faith, lacking in intellect and deficient in shares. As for their deficiency in faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual periods, and as for their deficiency in shares, it is due to their inheritance being half of what is inherited by men, and as for their lacking in intellect, it is because the testimony of two women equals the testimony of one man; so beware of the evil women and be on your guard [even] from those of them who are good.

14ـ مَعاشِرَ النّاسِ،إنَّ النِّساءَ نَواقِصُ الإيمانِ، نَواقِصُ العُقُولِ، نَواقِصُ الحُظُوظِ، فَأمّا نَقْصُ إيمانِهِنَّ فَقُعُودُهُنَّ في أيّامِ الْحَيْضِعَنِ الصَّلاةِ، والصِّيامِ، وأمّا نُقْصانُ حُظُوظِهِنَّ فَمَواريثُهُنَّ عَلى نِصْفِ مَوارِيثِ الرِّجالِ، وأمّا نُقْصانُ عُقُولِهِنَّ، فَشَهادَةُ اِمْرَأتَيْنِ كَشَهادَةِ رَجُل، فَاتَّقُوا شِرارَ النِّساءِ، وكُونُوا مِنْ خِيارِهِنَّ عَلى حَذَر.

15. Do not obey women in good [actions] such that they expect [your obedience] in evil.

15ـ لاتُطيعُوا النِّساءَ فيِ المَعْرُوفِ حَتّى لا يَطْمَعْنَ فِي الْمُنْكَرِ.

16. Never be frequently alone with women, for they will become weary of you and you will also become weary of them, and leave a part of yourself and your mind to tarry [away] from them.

16ـ لاتُـكَثِّرَنَّ الْخَلْوَةَ بِالنِّساءِ فَيَمْلَلْنَكَ وَتَمَلَّهُنَّ واسْتَبْقِ مِنْ نَفْسِكَ وَعَقْلِكَ بِالإبْطاءِ عَنْهُنَّ.

17. Let women not bear your burden and [try to] be independent from them as much as possible, for indeed they put many obligations [on you] and are ungrateful for [many of your] favours.

17ـ لاتَحْمِلُوا النِّساءَ أثْقالَكُمْ، واسْتَغْنُوا عَنْهُنَّ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ، فَإنَّهُنَّ يُكْثِرْنَ الاِمْتِنانَ، ويَكْفُرْنَ الإحْسانَ.

18. The woman is wholly evil, and more evil than her is the fact that man cannot do without her.

18ـ اَلمَرْأَةُ شَـرٌّ كُلُّها وشَـرٌّ مِنْها أنَّهُ لابـُدَّ مِنْها.

19. A woman is a scorpion whose sting is sweet.

19ـ اَلْمَرْأةُ عَقْرَبٌ حُلْوَةُ اللَّسْعَةِ (اللَّسَبَةِ).

20. Verily a woman is only [considered] a plaything, so whoever takes her should cover her.

20ـ إنَّما الْمَرأةُ لُعْبَةٌ فَمَنِ اتَّخَذَها فَلْيُغَطِّها.

21. Guarding the woman [from people and places that would harm her chastity] is better for her condition and more lasting for her beauty.

21ـ صِيانَةُ الْمَرأةِ أنْعَمُ لِحالِها وأدْوَمُ لِجَمالِها.

22. Do not give a woman the responsibility that she cannot bear for indeed a woman is [like] a sweet basil and not a strong ruler [who can govern the people].

22ـ لاتُمَلِّكِ الْمَرْأةَ ما جاوَزَ نَفْسَها، فَإنَّ المَرْأةَ رَيْحانَةٌ، ولَيْسَتْ بِقَهْرِمانَة.

https://www.al-islam.org/ghurar-al-hikam-wa-durar-al-kalim-exalted-aphorisms-and-pearls-speech/women

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^ A lot of those sound really misogynistic without context. Surely if they sound just as bad within context, they are not genuine. It is clearly written in the Quran that no person, man or woman, is superior over another except through doing good deeds. 

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45 minutes ago, notme said:

^ A lot of those sound really misogynistic without context. Surely if they sound just as bad within context, they are not genuine. It is clearly written in the Quran that no person, man or woman, is superior over another except through doing good deeds. 

Agreed. From the translator: ‘In addition, there are certain sayings that are difficult to comprehend and accept. An example of this can be seen in the section on the sayings about women. Here we would urge the readers to refer to what the scholars and commentators have said about such narrations and how they should be interpreted.’

Are there any scholars who still post on Shiachat? 
 

Further reading: https://www.al-islam.org/was-imam-ali-misogynist-amina-inloes/women-are-deficient-intellect

 

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On 12/8/2021 at 11:21 PM, slavelight said:
On 12/8/2021 at 10:53 PM, Revert1963 said:

Who would you prefer as a ruler; Gereta Thunberg or John Bolton?

There is never just 2 options. Neither.

In many electoral systems it is not uncommon to choose the least unfavorable candidate out of two choices.

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On 12/10/2021 at 12:03 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Any leader who is non muslim, and lacks taqwa, either thru ignorance (which might be the case with her) or thru willful disregard, is not someone I would place confidence in. If there is no taqwa, then there is some kind of alternate agenda and motivation for them doing it.

It it not beyond Muslims to have an alternate agenda. Even those who come across as pious could have that.

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59 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

In many electoral systems it is not uncommon to choose the least unfavorable candidate out of two choices.

Of those two, I'd choose Greta, but as far as I can tell, she isn't interested in a government position. Usually the two options (at least in the US) are much more similar, for example 2020's Trump or Biden "choice". 

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8 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

In many electoral systems it is not uncommon to choose the least unfavorable candidate out of two choices.

Very true sister. It's unpleasant to choose between 2 people whom both are terrible.

US current president is almost 80 years old who's to be managing the nation, and there are videos of him touching underaged girls on stage. How was this man even elected?
Occasions like this, tells me the presidents are not running the country, they are just mere puppets.

 

Edited by slavelight
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