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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophet Muhammad (saws) seeking forgiveness for believers

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Abu Nur

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Salaam Aleikum, 

 « And seek forgiveness for your sins O Muhammad, and for the believing men and the believing women. » [47:19]

And our actions are presented to Prophet Muhammad (saws) and he seeks forgiveness to us. This is the  beautiful intercession in this life and hereafter. 

I don't know how can this not be enough proof that we literally can ask God to make our Prophet to know about our situation and to seek forgiveness to us too, which literally is intercession. 

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32 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

« And seek forgiveness for your sins O Muhammad, and for the believing men and the believing women. » [47:19]

What does the first part of this verse mean?

It would seem that it is reflected in 4:105&106

105  Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate. 106  And seek forgiveness of Allah. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

and 40:55  So be patient, [O Muhammad]. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth. And ask forgiveness for your sin and exalt [Allah] with praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.

Can someone who needs to ask for their own forgiveness interceed for others?

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4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

What does the first part of this verse mean?

It would seem that it is reflected in 4:105&106

105  Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate. 106  And seek forgiveness of Allah. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

and 40:55  So be patient, [O Muhammad]. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth. And ask forgiveness for your sin and exalt [Allah] with praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.

Can someone who needs to ask for their own forgiveness interceed for others?

The Prophet (saws) can interceed because he is not really a sinner, nor any of the prophets either are sinners. The Prophets as being infallible, out of their humbleness and humility they ask forgivness from God. Sometimes amoung believers they could have intentions to do some worship, but then something happen in the way and they could not perfom it, and out of their humbleness they ask forginess to God, even when it is not sin.

Intercession is not limited only to Prophets (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام), but even the fallible believers can interceed in hereafter because at that time their sins have been already forgiven and they become pure.

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9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The Prophet (saws) can interceed because he is not really a sinner, nor any of the prophets either are sinners. The Prophets as being infallible, out of their humbleness and humility they ask forgivness from God.

Does the Qur'an teach that prophets are infalliable or is this found only in the Hadith?

The Torah, Zebur and Injil all make it clear that prophets were human like us and fallliable, and yet they were used by God for his purposes.  This gives us great confidence that although we fall short of God's perfect standard in so many ways, yet he is graceious and will use those who are repentant and seek to walk the straight path.

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4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Does the Qur'an teach that prophets are infalliable or is this found only in the Hadith?

The Torah, Zebur and Injil all make it clear that prophets were human like us and fallliable, and yet they were used by God for his purposes.  This gives us great confidence that although we fall short of God's perfect standard in so many ways, yet he is graceious and will use those who are repentant and seek to walk the straight path.

I would never follow a fallible human , who in the end would be just like me. If you want me to listen to an All Great God, that person must be infallible in order for it to have any kind of logic behind following.

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6 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Does the Qur'an teach that prophets are infalliable or is this found only in the Hadith?

The Torah, Zebur and Injil all make it clear that prophets were human like us and fallliable, and yet they were used by God for his purposes.  This gives us great confidence that although we fall short of God's perfect standard in so many ways, yet he is graceious and will use those who are repentant and seek to walk the straight path.

Yes Qur'an does teach the infallibility of Prophets. The Bible is very horrible how it portray the prophets, and we do not believe in such thing because we believe the prophets have reached highest of faith and have purified themselves by God help from all diseases of heart. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choose them for to guide the people and be His proof and representative in earth and He have told that He will protect them from people, shaytan and sins. 

The Prophets do not need to sin to show how God forgive them and be our exampler. Actually if there is a sinful prophets who call people to follow God they will already lose their trust. Because no one can trust a sinful person who claim that his message is from God. 

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On 11/30/2021 at 1:26 PM, Guest Hello said:

I would never follow a fallible human , who in the end would be just like me. If you want me to listen to an All Great God, that person must be infallible in order for it to have any kind of logic behind following.

We are not called to follow the prophets.  Only God is worthy of following.  The prophets teach and share about God and we learn from them.  God in his grace and mercy and through his mighty wisdom is able to use the prophets as his spokes people.  Using their talents, experiences and failings to transmit the message he wants us to hear and learn from.

What do you mean by follow the prophets?

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23 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes Qur'an does teach the infallibility of Prophets.

Where is that explained?  Can you help me with some verses on this topic?

23 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The Bible is very horrible how it portray the prophets,

I would suggest that the Bible is realistic in its portrail of the prophets.  We are able to relate top the challenges they faced and gain hope in seeing God use them and transform their lives.  We can learn from their mistakes and gain guidence from their successes.

The Injil contains an important comment. (2Timothy chapter 3)  This is a comment about the Hebrew Bible afirming its authority and reliability.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

23 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Actually if there is a sinful prophets who call people to follow God they will already lose their trust. Because no one can trust a sinful person who claim that his message is from God.

This means that you can not trust anyone.  Even your religious leaders and present day Imams.  We have all sinned.  Yet, God through his Spirit can transform us and give us insights into his truth which we can share with others.

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On 11/30/2021 at 6:26 PM, Guest Hello said:

I would never follow a fallible human , who in the end would be just like me. If you want me to listen to an All Great God, that person must be infallible in order for it to have any kind of logic behind following.

It seems like a statement the Jews would make as an excuse to not follow Allah..

(25:7) They say: "What sort of a Messenger is this: he eats food and walks about in the markets? Why was an 'angel' not sent down to him so that he may remain with the Messenger and warn those that do not believe in him?"

Angels are essentially sinless and therefore should be considered superior?

 

 

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Pure Humans are for sure higher in status than Angels.

This purity is what we should aspire to even though we have the capacity to sin, this is why pure humans are the best creatures, us ordinary sinners should strive to become more like the pure humans and it is only the pure that can be guides and examples to us the sinful masses as already explained above.

Let's use an example which may help, imagine a table which if left alone will remain a table, then the effects from other things produce a layer of dust on that table, a simple wipe and it is clean again and the beauty of the original table is back as it should be.

It wasn't the table itself that made itself unclean but it was what else was around it, this may be a way to understand why someone like Prophet Muhammad(saaw) 'repented' in addition to being a true humble servant, Prophet Muhammad's(saaw) repentance wasn't due to his own doing, is was merely cleansing himself from the effects from the many sinful masses that he was obligated to guide and cleanse.

Hope this helps.

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12 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Where is that explained?  Can you help me with some verses on this topic?

I would suggest that the Bible is realistic in its portrail of the prophets.  We are able to relate top the challenges they faced and gain hope in seeing God use them and transform their lives.  We can learn from their mistakes and gain guidence from their successes.

The Injil contains an important comment. (2Timothy chapter 3)  This is a comment about the Hebrew Bible afirming its authority and reliability.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This means that you can not trust anyone.  Even your religious leaders and present day Imams.  We have all sinned.  Yet, God through his Spirit can transform us and give us insights into his truth which we can share with others.

There are a lot verses that talks about the infallible of the ones that God choose them to represent and to guide the people and I do not have time to bring them all. But I can summarize by few Quran verses that refute the Jewish and Christianity viewpoint about prophets being sinful and that it only can indicate that only infallible can be followed:

....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.”(Qur’an 76:24)

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and do not burn your deeds (by disobeying him).”(Qur’an 47:33)

"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah.”(Qur’an 4:80)

God show lessons from those who do evil and injustice to warn us from it consciousness and at the same time He gives us hope for repentance. As for Prophets, He does not use them as the same manner as the sinner but He uses them as the light and hope to be followed:

“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.”  (Al-Quran 33:21)

“And verily, you (Muhammad) are on an exalted (standard of) character.”[ Al Quran 68:4 ]

12 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

This means that you can not trust anyone.  Even your religious leaders and present day Imams.  We have all sinned.  Yet, God through his Spirit can transform us and give us insights into his truth which we can share with others.

Exactly, because they are fallible like us who take from infallible ones. When it comes to belief, you need yourself to investigate and can not imitate or blind follow others. 

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We say we need intercession for the fulfillment of our prayers because some believe we cannot access Allah directly. 

And yet, We see even the Propeht saww conveying his message to Allah through Angels and Allah sending His message likewise. I can give the example of Hadis e Kisa where even the salutation and glad tidings are sent and brought by angel Jibrail (عليه السلام).

Shouldn't Angels be our intercessors too when it comes to prayers? 

Also there is Shafa'a when the Prophet saww will be given the permission to ask for forgiveness for his Ummah, that will be applicable on the Day of Judgement 

 

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1 hour ago, sargardan said:

We say we need intercession for the fulfillment of our prayers because some believe we cannot access Allah directly. 

And yet, We see even the Propeht saww conveying his message to Allah through Angels and Allah sending His message likewise. I can give the example of Hadis e Kisa where even the salutation and glad tidings are sent and brought by angel Jibrail (عليه السلام).

Shouldn't Angels be our intercessors too when it comes to prayers? 

Also there is Shafa'a when the Prophet saww will be given the permission to ask for forgiveness for his Ummah, that will be applicable on the Day of Judgement 

 

The Quran verse I quoted and narrations where Prophet ask forgiveness to us is clear evidence that we can seek intercession of Prophet (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام). 

I can ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to send my blessing and salaam To Prophet and ask God that He let the Prophet knows my situation and ask also forgiveness for my behalf. 

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On 12/2/2021 at 11:00 PM, Abu Nur said:

The Quran verse I quoted and narrations where Prophet ask forgiveness to us is clear evidence that we can seek intercession of Prophet (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام). 

I can ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to send my blessing and salaam To Prophet and ask God that He let the Prophet knows my situation and ask also forgiveness for my behalf. 

Salamualaikum, 

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and do not burn your deeds (by disobeying him).”(Qur’an 47:33)

"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah.”(Qur’an 4:80)

Do we need to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) all the time to tell the Prophet(عليه السلام) that we are obeying him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Or it is well know truth that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants us to obey His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Do we need to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) first to tell the Prophet to all the time that someone is seeking your intercession?

It is God given truth that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already gave permission for the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to be obeyed and give intercession.  Just communicate to the Prophet(عليه السلام) and ask the intercession.  The permission for the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to give intercession is known fact.

Do we still ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) again and again to remind the Prophet that someone asking you (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to give intercession!!!.

Also asking intercession is direct spiritual communication.  Our direct connection to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) are NOT cut off.

Wallahualam. 

 

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On 11/30/2021 at 6:21 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What does the first part of this verse mean?

It would seem that it is reflected in 4:105&106

105  Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate. 106  And seek forgiveness of Allah. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

and 40:55  So be patient, [O Muhammad]. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth. And ask forgiveness for your sin and exalt [Allah] with praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.

Can someone who needs to ask for their own forgiveness interceed for others?

Peace to you.

All humans have potential to sins.  Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not that possibility because He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute Pure.

It is due to Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protection that a person can avoid sinning.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants to tell us that under "normal" circumstances all humans have potential to sins. He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants to show to all creations and all His servants that He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute Pure.  Absolute reliance on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will save you from sinning.

 « And seek forgiveness for your sins O Muhammad, and for the believing men and the believing women. » [47:19]

 

The act of "seeking forgiveness" is one of most clear way to acknowledge that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  is the Absolute Pure for those who believe in Him(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). There clear distinction between Alla (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Servants (Prophets, believers...)

Deep in the consciousness of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام), they always believe they are sinners (eventhough Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already made them Pure and sinless) in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Because of that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows them to express their consciousness as a way to acknowledge His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as their Owner, Protector...and Alone worthy to be worshipped.  In The verse 47:29, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) direct the Prophet to express his consciousness to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) eventhough the Prophet is not sinning (no recorded sins).

Many rich people never acknowledge they are wealthy and say they are destitute and poor because they believe their wealth belongs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (real Owner). In their prayer to God, they still make it known to God that they poor and destitute.  Prophets and Imams are like this.

I hope to make some sense to why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  ask Prophet to seek forgiveness for his sins.  It is a method to praise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and acknowledge Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  as the Absolute Pure and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is everything to them.  Seeking forgiveness (even we not doing the sins) is one of excellent method to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as a slave.

Wallahualam.

Correct me if I am wrong.

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On 12/1/2021 at 9:01 PM, pseudonym said:

Let's use an example which may help, imagine a table which if left alone will remain a table, then the effects from other things produce a layer of dust on that table, a simple wipe and it is clean again and the beauty of the original table is back as it should be.

It wasn't the table itself that made itself unclean but it was what else was around it, this may be a way to understand why someone like Prophet Muhammad(saaw) 'repented' in addition to being a true humble servant, Prophet Muhammad's(saaw) repentance wasn't due to his own doing, is was merely cleansing himself from the effects from the many sinful masses that he was obligated to guide and cleanse.

This is a really interesting illustration.  Thank you!   It says to me a number of things - please correct me if I'm wrong.

The table is not intrinsicly affected by the dust.  So are you saying that sin does not really affect us?  It is just something we can brush of as 'mear' dust.  Or are you saying that your prophet was different in essence from all other people who ever lived?  We are all deeply affected by sin it is more like ink soaking into cloth than dust on a table.

My experience of sin is the latter ink soaking into a cloth rarher trhan dust on a table.  What is your experience of sin?

If your prophet was so fundamentally differnt from us, how can he be a true guide and example?  How can someone who brushes off sin like dust help me who carries the stain of sin in my heart.

On 12/2/2021 at 4:11 AM, Abu Nur said:

This topic was actually about Intercession of the Prophet (saws), and not about his infallibility. 

Thank you for pointing this out.  However, I think there is a close link between the two.  Can a sinner interceed for another sinner?  Can someone who is dirty say about other dirty people that their dirt doesn't matter?  It seems hypocritical to me.

On the other hand can someone who has no understanding of what sin is like because they can just brush it off like dust offer real intercession for those for whom it is like a stain of ink?  The intercessor needs to understand the struggle to truly understand the seriousness of sin and so interceed with genuine honisty.

As a follower of Jesus the Messiah, I see an answer to both of these challenges in Jesus the Messiah.  The Trustworthy Injil teaches us clearly that Jesus the Messiah was in every way like us humans.  He was tempted in every way like we are.  Temptation wasn't something that didn't affect him, like dust on the table. See these verses

Hebrews 2:18  Because he himself (Jesus) suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Here we see a clear declaration that Jesus the Messiah, although for him temptaion was real - he struggled like us - yet he was able to overcome.

These verse include the term "High Priest".  This is a picture from the Hebrew Bible.  God used the regulations of worship as a picture for what he was gpoing to do through Jesus the Messiah.  The High Priest was the only person who could, once a year ,ask for forgivness of the people in God's presence.  However before he asked for forgivness of his own sins he had to ask for his own forgivness.  But with Jesus the Messiah we read this:

Henrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Atonement is real intercession.  it is not just asking that God overlooks someone's sin.  It is actually paying the price of that sin, it is providing a way for the stain of sin to be washed out of our hearts to be irradicated.  This makes us worthy to come into God's family, not because God just overlooks our dirty sinfulness, but because we have been purified by the attonement of Jesus the Messiah.

 

 

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On 12/4/2021 at 1:50 AM, layman said:

The act of "seeking forgiveness" is one of most clear way to acknowledge that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  is the Absolute Pure for those who believe in Him(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). There clear distinction between Alla (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Servants (Prophets, believers...)

Yes - That is so important.  Because of God's purity and holiness he cannot look on sin nor can sin abide in his presence.

For us to become part of God's family we need an intercessor who can approach God and plead on our behalf.

On 12/4/2021 at 1:50 AM, layman said:

Deep in the consciousness of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام), they always believe they are sinners (eventhough Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already made them Pure and sinless) in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Because of that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows them to express their consciousness as a way to acknowledge His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as their Owner, Protector...and Alone worthy to be worshipped.  In The verse 47:29, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) direct the Prophet to express his consciousness to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) eventhough the Prophet is not sinning (no recorded sins).

I'm sorry I don't understand this.  Either a person is sinless and doesn't need to ask for forgiveness, or sinful and needs to ask for forgiveness.

To be sinless and ask for forgiveness is just as hypocritical as being sinful and not asking for forgiveness.

Why do people's consciouses make them believe they are sinners?  Because we are!  Conscience is the God given inner voice to remind us of his holiness and our shame before him.

Jesus the Messiah never asked for forgiveness, though he taught his followers to ask for forgiveness.  And even his closest friends who lived with him during his ministry were able to say he didn't sin.  See Peter's statement (1Peter Chapter 2)

21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

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21 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If your prophet was so fundamentally differnt from us, how can he be a true guide and example?  How can someone who brushes off sin like dust help me who carries the stain of sin in my heart.

Hi all prophets even prophet  Isa /Jesus (عليه السلام) have been fundamentally from us which Christians  have made this mistake which he has been God because  as you have mentioned , he has not commited any sin which in similar fashion prophet  Muhammad (pbu) have not commited any sin too which also  him & his daughter  as infallibles & rest of  infallible  Imams(عليه السلام) from his progeny  have not affected by both of temptation  of world & ignorance (Jahiliyya) even they have fought with ignorance (Jahiliyya).

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The word "jahiliyya" is derived from the word "jahl" (ignorance) which, along with its cognates, were used in the Arabic poetry before Islam. The word literally means lack of knowledge, but this usage does not have such implications; rather it refers to a sort of conduct that is so arrogant and self-centered that does not obey any power, be it human or divine, right or wrong.

On the whole, hadiths in this regard imply that the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) sought to counter and reform the residual practices of Jahiliyya. They sometimes criticized the Jahiliyya bias or zealotry and sometimes its specific manifestations and instances.

According to some hadiths, lack of knowledge about imamate amounts to Jahiliyya: one who dies without knowing the Imam of one's time, dies as if one has been living in the age of Jahiliyya. This has been mentioned in supplications too.

 

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The Qur'an, 5:50: "do they then seek after a judgment of ignorance (jahiliyya)?" The judgment of ignorance refers to a sort of whimsical judgment not based on any revelation or a book. The verse encompasses anyone who seeks after a judgment other than that of God. 'Allama Tabataba'i appealed to a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a) to conclude that judgments are either divine or out of ignorance (jahiliyya).

 

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Some of Imam 'Ali (a)'s sermons imply that during Jahiliyya, people of Arab had unpleasant foods and drinks as well as inappropriate family and social relations; in general, they had inappropriate, disgusting life styles. Similar remarks are made by Ja'far b. Abi Talib—the head of Muslims in the migration to Abyssinia—to the king of Abyssinia. Similar points are also made by Fatima al-Zahra (a) in her speech in the Prophet's Mosque after his demise.

In Shiite hadiths, the following are mentioned as instances of Jahiliyya practices:

Jahiliyya zealotry
Taking sides with wrongdoers of one's own tribe over righteous people from other tribes when there was a quarrel between the two
Drinking wine
Making no will before one's death
Rubbing the blood of 'aqiqa (an animal, such as a sheep or a cow, slaughtered for charity purposes after the birth of a baby) on the newborn's head
Eating food in the house of a person who was mourning the loss of his loved one.

 

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Izutsu's View
In his book, Ethico-religious concepts in the Qur'an, the Japanese scholar of Islamic studies, Toshihiko Izutsu, drew upon a research based on Qur'anic verses and evidence from hadiths and history to develop Godlziher's view, and he arrived at the conclusion that in the Qur'anic usage, the word "jahl" and its cognates refer to the hostility of the Prophet's (s) opponents to monotheism; they thought that monotheism was a strict and onerous belief. During the period of Jahiliyya, people of Arab did not take Allah to be the only god; rather they believed that there was a hierarchy of gods none of whom was to be obeyed in an absolute manner. Thus the belief that Allah was the only god would make a drastic change in their conception of the relation between God and humans, because it requires that one be unconditionally obedient of one and the same God. In fact, such obedience requires that one give up one's arrogance and selfishness, whereas Jahiliyya requires the idea of human autonomy. Drawing on Qur'anic verses, Izutsu took arrogance to be the origin of all characters of Jahiliyya.

Blachère's View
Régis Blachère, the French Orientalist, concerned himself with the psychology of primitive Arabs by an appeal to data from the history of Arabic literature. In his view, individual and social characters of Arabs in the period of Jahiliyya included violence, arrogance, irritability, pugnacity, seeking fame, ambition, vengeance, the need to exhibitionism, bragging about one's wealth, and prodigality.

Goldziher's View

The Hungarian Orientalist, Ignác Goldziher, who studied the poetry and culture of Jahiliyya, took "jahl" here not to mean ignorance as opposed to knowledge, but rather to be opposed to "hilm" (Arabic: حلم) which means wisdom and rationality. Therefore, the period of Jahiliyya is not a period of lacking knowledge, rather it was the period of barbarism and rebellion, that is, violence, arrogance, selfishness, absurd talks, and the like.

Although Goldziher's view was later put into doubt, and later translators of the Qur'an did not take his view into account when they translated the word "jahl" and its cognates, his research as well as newer researches about the Arabic culture before Islam provided material for later researchers.

Endorsing Goldziher's view, Blachère says that all these psychological manifestations were as a whole called "Jahiliyya". William Watt has talked about all these characters as "tribal humanism".

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Jahiliyya

35 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sorry I don't understand this.  Either a person is sinless and doesn't need to ask for forgiveness, or sinful and needs to ask for forgiveness.

To be sinless and ask for forgiveness is just as hypocritical as being sinful and not asking for forgiveness.

Why do people's consciouses make them believe they are sinners?  Because we are!  Conscience is the God given inner voice to remind us of his holiness and our shame before him.

Jesus the Messiah never asked for forgiveness, though he taught his followers to ask for forgiveness.  And even his closest friends who lived with him during his ministry were able to say he didn't sin.  See Peter's statement (1Peter Chapter 2)

You even have not  understood  principle of your faith because you have claimed  that prophet  Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) has been crucified for asking forgiveness  for everyone's sins but on the other hand you have denied it by this post .

 

21 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

As a follower of Jesus the Messiah, I see an answer to both of these challenges in Jesus the Messiah.  The Trustworthy Injil teaches us clearly that Jesus the Messiah was in every way like us humans.  He was tempted in every way like we are.  Temptation wasn't something that didn't affect him, like dust on the table. See these verses

Hebrews 2:18  Because he himself (Jesus) suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Here we see a clear declaration that Jesus the Messiah, although for him temptaion was real - he struggled like us - yet he was able to overcome.

This is declaration  of that prophet  Isa/Jesus  (عليه السلام) has not been  a God or sth like this because  if he has been God in human form then according  to your declaration he has affected by temptation  as  his creation which nobody worships  a God which his creation is more powerful than himself .

 

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13 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sorry I don't understand this.  Either a person is sinless and doesn't need to ask for forgiveness, or sinful and needs to ask for forgiveness.

 

We are to careful when we are comparing creations to the Absolute Creator.

The Prophet of Islam is the most knowledgeable/pure among the entire creation.

Would the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) say that I am most knowledgeable /pure among the creation in the presence of the God who is Absolute Pure???

He will say ,... I am just nobody...just a slave and you has chosen me because your love.  All the knowledge and purity belongs to You Alone.

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stops giving his knowledge/purity to anyone...the person is deem to be...uninformed/unclean.

If the Prophet is asked to "seek forgiveness", it means to put Absolute Trust in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to acknowledge the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute in Everything.  It is not because the Prophet committed a sin or unclean.  

We should always seek forgiveness in all our actions as way to acknowledge that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Alone can perfect our actions eventhough we have done nothing wrong.  This is another aspect of seeking forgiveness.

I hope i make sense.

Wallahualam.

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On 12/5/2021 at 8:12 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

You even have not  understood  principle of your faith because you have claimed  that prophet  Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) has been crucified for asking forgiveness  for everyone's sins but on the other hand you have denied it by this post .

Jesus the Messiah did not die for his own sin.  He was handed over to the Romans by the religious leaders because they saw him as a threat even though he hadn't sinned. He asked at one time "Which of you can accuse me of sin?" and no one did.

However the death of Jesus the Messiah was part of God's plan to remove the shame of people and lift them back into the family of God as his own children.  His death opened the road of forgivness.  We can be forgiven because his death was not for his own sin.  He didn't need to deal with the shame of his own actions.

On 12/5/2021 at 8:12 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is declaration  of that prophet  Isa/Jesus  (عليه السلام) has not been  a God or sth like this because  if he has been God in human form then according  to your declaration he has affected by temptation  as  his creation which nobody worships  a God which his creation is more powerful than himself .

The fact that Jesus the Messiah struggled with sin does not show that creation is more powerful than he is.  Because he was not defeated in the struggle but came out victorious.  This shows that he is more powerful than spiritual powers and forces.  Where we stand defeated and ashamed because of our dirty deeds, Jesus the Messiah is honoured above all.

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11 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

  Because he was not defeated in the struggle but came out victorious. 

Hi a real God doesn't  need to struggle  with any dirty deeds or good deeds  because  he is creatore of everything   & he is not unaware of his creation so therefore he doesn't  need to exprience  anything  which your logic about struggling  with dirty deeds by prophet Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) as a God or demigod is insluting to him & God.:respect:

11 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

esus the Messiah did not die for his own sin.  He was handed over to the Romans by the religious leaders because they saw him as a threat even though he hadn't sinned. He asked at one time "Which of you can accuse me of sin?" and no one did.

However the death of Jesus the Messiah was part of God's plan to remove the shame of people and lift them back into the family of God as his own children.  His death opened the road of forgivness.  We can be forgiven because his death was not for his own sin.  He didn't need to deal with the shame of his own actions.

you don't  understand  my words & have replied it by a typical christian response which is not valid for any muslim because  we don't  belive to death of prophet Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) on cross which also according to holy Quran it has been an illusion of Rabbis which became typical  misunderstanding  of Christians  too.

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On 12/18/2021 at 8:29 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

we don't  belive to death of prophet Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) on cross which also according to holy Quran it has been an illusion of Rabbis

Thank you for your comments.  If you want to discuss the interpretaion and consiquence of Qur'an sura 4 (An-Nisa) 157 than open a new thread -  I don't think this is the place to do it.

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