A Zaydi Refutation of The Occultation

[Zaydism]

In the name of Allāh the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, I am pleased to present the English translation of the book al-Mahdawiyah by al-Kādhim al-Zaydī, it is a refutation of the Twelver belief in occultation. May Allāh make this a source of guidance and benefit. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zPoApUbI0T00idopArVg6uxpIKkl5RKX/view?usp=sharing

[Muslim2010]

"Every Fatimid Imam is the Mahdi of the Ummah" (as quoted in the link above) 

Before proceeding further i like to see the hadith of our  prophet  that Imam of Zadiyyah after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is Zayd bin Ali, please quote us at-least a single hadith the he is an imam appointed by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) before we can come to any other ambiguous statement like given above,

wasalam

Edited November 25, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Imam of Zadiyyah after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is Zayd bin Ali

Salam brother, there is no such Hadith, after Imam Hussein Imamah is in the sons of those who call to their Imamah from the sons of al-Hassan, and al-Hussein. To claim designation of any Imam after Imam al-Hussein cannot be proven, refer to pages 35, 42, and 51  

I really hope everyone understands that the Twelver claim is that the Imams deliberately hid their Imamah from the people, and even from their own sons! That is correct, their own sons as well. The Zaydi position is simple, if you want to be an Imam, you need to inform the people of your Imamah (of course meeting the pre-requisites of Imamah) this is why we believe in the Imamah of Imam 'Ali b. Musa al-Ridha even though he didn't rise with a sword, because he called to his Imamah openly!

I would also like to add that al-Imam al-Hassan b. 'Ali b. al-Hussein b. 'Ali b. 'Umar b. 'Ali b. al-Hussein b. 'Ali (al-Nasir al-Utrush) was present during the burial of his cousin al-Hassan al-'Askari, and he said that he died without a son, and this was the belief of everyone, except the Twelvers who come and add their caveat of Taqiyyah.

You cannot doubt the virtue of Imam al-Nasir out of what Sharif al-Radhi said about him, you also cannot deny the virtue of Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq, Zayd b. 'Ali, Muhammad b. 'Abdullah al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah, al-Hussein al-Fakhi, and other great members of the Ahl al-Bayt who were ignorant of there being a twelfth Imam, or designated Imams after Imam Hussein.

The book unequivocally highlights that, I encourage you to read it and challenge me on any point. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Zaidism

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Salam brother, there is no such Hadith, 

16 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

"Every Fatimid Imam is the Mahdi of the Ummah" (as quoted in the link above) 

Before proceeding further i like to see the hadith of our  prophet  that Imam (Zadiyyah claim) after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is Zayd bin Ali, please quote us at-least a single hadith the he is an imam appointed by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) before we can come to any other ambiguous statement like given above,

wasalam

Then in that case it is evident that Zayd bin Ali and all Zaydi imams  after him are not appointed imams by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but they are just like caliphs chosen by the people like the sunni concept of man made caliphate of first 3 caliphs.  There is no any difference in both sects /approaches.  

The religion is based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet instead of cherry picking some people and regard them as imams, 12vers have well defined principle in the light of verses of quran and the names of 12 imams mentioned by the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  which certainly refutes the other sects. The evidence also comes from Zadiya that share the same first 3 Imams as those of 12vers including Imam Ali , Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

I have already questioned these sunni and zadiya principles  in my earlier posts, the detail can be seen at the given link:

wasalam

Edited November 25, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

not appointed imams by the prophet

Incorrect, Hadith al-Thaqalayn is a clear appointment of the 'itra (progeny) of the Prophet, our contention is limiting the Ahl al-Bayt to Twelve members, or in the case of the Ismailis limiting the Ahl al-Bayt to the sons of Imam al-Hussein exclusively.

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

12vers have well defined principle in the light of verses of quran and the names of 12 imams mentioned by the hadith of the prophet

The book refutes this.

[Muslim2010]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:22 AM, Zaidism said:

Incorrect, Hadith al-Thaqalayn is a clear appointment of the 'itra (progeny) of the Prophet, our contention is limiting the Ahl al-Bayt to Twelve members, or in the case of the Ismailis limiting the Ahl al-Bayt to the sons of Imam al-Hussein exclusively.

Hadith thaqlayn defined Itrah / progeny of the prophet are not separated from the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and both will come to pool of paradise together. For guidance, the people should adhere to both instead of choosing themselves some ones as imams.

There is no evidence that out of progeny All are imams or these imams are  chosen by the people. The appointment of Imam Ali a,s. imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is clearly mentioned in hadiths (including 12 imams names mentioned in prophet hadiths  including first 3 imams) but that is missing for people chosen imams including Zayd bin Ali and about 140 after wards chosen by Zaydis.   Thus zadiya stance is already refuted many times in these threads.

Thus i stay with my words and they are fully aligned with the principles defined in the verses of Quran and hadith of the prophet s..a.w.: as given below:

On 11/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Then in that case it is evident that Zayd bin Ali and all Zaydi imams  after him are not appointed imams by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but they are just like caliphs chosen by the people like the sunni concept of man made caliphate of first 3 caliphs.  There is no any difference in both sects /approaches.  

The religion is based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet instead of cherry picking some people and regard them as imams, 12vers have well defined principle in the light of verses of quran and the names of 12 imams mentioned by the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  which certainly refutes the other sects. The evidence also comes from Zadiya that share the same first 3 Imams as those of 12vers including Imam Ali , Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

wasalam

Edited November 26, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

5 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

There is no evidence that out of progeny All are imams or these imams are  chosen by the people

I agree with both your points. 

1. Not all those who have inherited the book are Imams, I don’t know if you’re choosing to be ignorant at this point. 

2. People don’t choose the Imams, they give Bay'ah to the Imams. the Imam is the one who is most favorable (from the Ahl al-Bayt) and is most fit for the position. This is why we disagree with our Mu’tazili brothers who consider the caliphate of ‘Umar and Abu Bakr to be legitimate, because they advanced the rightful position of Imam Ali who was the most fit, and most favorable. 
 

If the Imam isn't the most fit, and favorable then he won't receive Bay'ah, so I don't understand how you inferred that the people 'choose' the Imams.

Our conception of Imamah is that it is a means to an end, not an end itself, as you believe. If the Imam doesn't defend the Muslims, lead the Friday prayer, establish the Hudud, then what is his purpose? This is why Twelver Imamah is simply a fantasy. 

5 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

chosen by Zaydis

What do you mean “chosen” our Imam openly calls to his Imamah. 

Unlike you, we don’t believe that Imams claim Imamah, and hide it from their sons, and the masses. And we don’t believe when they say they’re not Imam it’s “Taqiyyah” we actually take them by their word. 

This is why we believe in the Imamah of 'Ali b. Musa al-Ridha, because he openly claimed to be an Imam, and he had the qualities of being an Imam, so he is considered a Zaydi Imam. I really think everyone should step back and think about what is being said here. How in the world are you going to hold us to believe in Twelve Particular Imams (who we love, respect, and consider to all be Zaydis) when they 

A - Did not openly claim Imamah

B - Denied being Imams

C - Hid their Imamah from their sons

E - Those who supposedly knew of their Imamah like Zurarh, Hisham b. Hakm, al-Taq, et al. Did not know who the next Imam is after each Imam

Brother, these claims are unfounded, seriously. You all hide under the Wilayah of Imam Ali, and Hadith Thaqalayn, now that the Zaydis have arrived on the scene, the holes are more visible than ever!

Again, for a further exposition that breaks down the points I mentioned, read the book. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Zaidism

[Cool]

On 11/25/2021 at 2:02 PM, Zaidism said:

it is a refutation of the Twelver belief in occultation

غيب is a Quranic concept. It is the very belief of every Muslim:

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ 

2:3

الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَهُم مِّنَ السَّاعَةِ مُشْفِقُونَ

21:49

الساعة is a ghayb for us. We believe in it.  It is not a thing which appear before us suddenly, it is already in progress yet hidden from our sight. Its signs are there to confirm that it is in progress and will become apparent at some point of time. 

So how many things are ghayb for us, yet we believe in them. Have you seen angels? Or Jinns? Or Iblis? 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and every Imam (عليه السلام) have mentioned to their sincere followers something about the ghaybah. I don't know how you are missing the verses of Quran which speaks loudly about the ghaybah, the hidden meanings of those verses of Quran were disclosed by Imams to their sincere followers:

بقية الله خير لكم ان كنتم مومنين

So may be "Baqiyyatullah" for you is something else. But we have been taught by our Imams who actually is the misdaq of بقيةالله.

قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ أَصْبَحَ مَاؤُكُمْ غَوْرًا فَمَنْ يَأْتِيكُمْ بِمَاءٍ مَعِينٍ

May be you keep thinking about the case where "your water" becomes hidden from you, go away from you then who except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will bring for you that flowing water. 

What we have been taught by Imams, is that the water here in this verse is not the water which we drink, rather it is the Imam of time who goes into ghaybah and becomes disappeared from our sight, it is the state where we are living in. 

ربّنا، عجّل لنا ظهور عين ماء الحياة الإمام المهدي، واطفيء عطشنا بنور جماله

I suggest you to contact your scholar and request him to stop refuting Quran and Hadith. Knowingly refuting these two things, takes one out of the folds of Islam.

Wassalam!!

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:32 PM, Zaidism said:

I really hope everyone understands that the Twelver claim is that the Imams deliberately hid their Imamah from the people, and even from their own sons! That is correct, their own sons as well. The Zaydi position is simple, if you want to be an Imam, you need to inform the people of your Imamah (of course meeting the pre-requisites of Imamah) this is why we believe in the Imamah of Imam 'Ali b. Musa al-Ridha even though he didn't rise with a sword, because he called to his Imamah openly!

I would also like to add that al-Imam al-Hassan b. 'Ali b. al-Hussein b. 'Ali b. 'Umar b. 'Ali b. al-Hussein b. 'Ali (al-Nasir al-Utrush) was present during the burial of his cousin al-Hassan al-'Askari, and he said that he died without a son, and this was the belief of everyone, except the Twelvers who come and add their caveat of Taqiyyah.

 

Salam again & again  you have repeated your previous misunderstanding  from Imamate which none of 12 infallible Imams have not hid their Imamate from people which there is multiple narrations which anyone of Imams have declared themselvs as Imams with fullprofe which in contrast to to your claim the Zaydi position always have inconsistent  & full of contradition  wich in history of Zaydism mutiple Imams have been presented  in same time with different  range of followers & authority  which Imam 'Ali b. Musa al-Ridha (عليه السلام) has not mentioned as a Zaydi Imam in contrast to your claim which his decleration of Imamate  has been announced in similar fashion of all Imams before him likewise his father Imam Kadhim (عليه السلام) before him & Imam Jawad (عليه السلام) after him until declaration  of Imamate by Imam Mahdi (aj) as 12th Imam in similar fashion of Imam 'Ali b. Musa al-Ridha (عليه السلام).

Quote

You cannot doubt the virtue of Imam al-Nasir out of what Sharif al-Radhi said about him, you also cannot deny the virtue of Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq, Zayd b. 'Ali, Muhammad b. 'Abdullah al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah, al-Hussein al-Fakhi, and other great members of the Ahl al-Bayt who were ignorant of there being a twelfth Imam, or designated Imams after Imam Hussein.

They have been revered people  which in cotrast to your claim   Abdullah al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah has announced him as Mahdi the savior which his claim  has been refuted by Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) which al-Hussein al-Fakhi only has revolted against  injustice of Abbasids but he has not claimed  himself as Imam or caliph or etc which none of these four figures have claimed  themselves as Ahlulbayt  & about Hasan al-Muthanna even majority of Zaydis has not called him as their Imam which only a little  group have called him caliph.

Quote

Zaid ibn Ali’s beliefs (uprising and revolting against the unjust under any circumstances) led many of his followers to think he was an imam in spite of the fact that he himself did not believe as such. After his martyrdom, they launched uprisings against the then governments in Iraq, Iran and Yemen. They sought to establish their own Zaidi government.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6871

Who was Hasan al-Muthanna? Was he present in the event of Karbala?

Quote

 After his death, his wife erected a tent on his grave and she engaged in worshipping for a year." Hasan bin al-Hasan never claimed to be an Imam and no one has claimed that he was an Imam.[7]
Sayyid bin Tavus writes about the merit and nobility of Hasan bin Hasan and some other children of Imam Hasan (AS): "These are people whose lofty position and merit all Muslims acknowledged".[8]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/ur21439

[Zaydism]

8 hours ago, Cool said:

غيب is a Quranic concept. It is the very belief of every Muslim:

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ 

2:3

الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَهُم مِّنَ السَّاعَةِ مُشْفِقُونَ

21:49

الساعة is a ghayb for us. We believe in it.  It is not a thing which appear before us suddenly, it is already in progress yet hidden from our sight. Its signs are there to confirm that it is in progress and will become apparent at some point of time. 

So how many things are ghayb for us, yet we believe in them. Have you seen angels? Or Jinns? Or Iblis? 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and every Imam (عليه السلام) have mentioned to their sincere followers something about the ghaybah. I don't know how you are missing the verses of Quran which speaks loudly about the ghaybah, the hidden meanings of those verses of Quran were disclosed by Imams to their sincere followers:

بقية الله خير لكم ان كنتم مومنين

So may be "Baqiyyatullah" for you is something else. But we have been taught by our Imams who actually is the misdaq of بقيةالله.

قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ أَصْبَحَ مَاؤُكُمْ غَوْرًا فَمَنْ يَأْتِيكُمْ بِمَاءٍ مَعِينٍ

May be you keep thinking about the case where "your water" becomes hidden from you, go away from you then who except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will bring for you that flowing water. 

What we have been taught by Imams, is that the water here in this verse is not the water which we drink, rather it is the Imam of time who goes into ghaybah and becomes disappeared from our sight, it is the state where we are living in. 

ربّنا، عجّل لنا ظهور عين ماء الحياة الإمام المهدي، واطفيء عطشنا بنور جماله

I suggest you to contact your scholar and request him to stop refuting Quran and Hadith. Knowingly refuting these two things, takes one out of the folds of Islam.

Wassalam!!

This has nothing to do with the points I mentioned it’s just wordplay.

A - There is no historical evidence for the Mahdi that is a fact 

B - His father denied his existence that is a fact 

C - There is no Hadith that designates an occult Mahdi, you’d think if an occultation that extends for over 1187 years would at least be mentioned, especially since he’ll be occult anyway. 
 

D - All the arguments you used can be used by other Shi’as who also claimed to believe in occult Imams, other than your Imams, for example those who believed in Imam Sadiq being occult, or those who believed in Imam Kadhim being occult - your entire reasoning can equally be used by them. 
 

E - The cousin of Imam Hassan Askari is al-Imam Hassan b. Ali b. Hassan b. Ali b. Umar b. Ali b. Hussein b. Ali, he is a Hussein imam who prayed on his cousin and buried him, he explicitly mentioned that he died without a son. I don’t think you understand the greatness of Imam Nasir al-Utrush, just go read what Sharif Radhi said about him, it is also recorded in the Mu’jam of sayyid Khu’i. 
 

ثبت العرش ثم أنقش 

[Cool]

3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no historical evidence for the Mahdi that is a fact 

Salam,

I don't feel the need to give evidence in support of Imam of our time as long as we have Quran with us. So you believe in one thing for which Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said لن تضلوا بعدي but not the second thing.

That's your problem not mine.

 

[Zaydism]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Salam,

I don't feel the need to give evidence in support of Imam of our time as long as we have Quran with us. So you believe in one thing for which Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said لن تضلوا بعدي but not the second thing.

That's your problem not mine.

 

Wa 'Alaykum al-Salam,

 

Brother if there is one thing we can be certain of it is how astray the Twelver school is. 

For example, did you know that you are in fact following the school of Sheikh al-Mufid? Did you know that the Imamiyah were not a single monolith? Did you know that during the times of Sheikh Saduq, and Sheikh Mufid the Imamiyah were branched into two major factions?

The Baghdadi school of the Twelvers followed the course of Sheikh Mufid, and they were considered to be Ghulat (exaggerators) by the Qomi scholars.

The Qomi school had shocking beliefs, did you know that they believed in determinism, and that Allah had a physical body? Remember our discussion on Hisham b. al-Hakm this is where their beliefs stem from.

Here's another interesting fact, did you know that the 3rd 'representative' of the Mahdi sent a book to the scholars of Qom asking them whether the 'Aqeedah in there is correct? He did that because if wrote the Imams signature on it he would be exposed as a fraud, what is interesting though is if the Imam couldn't guide him himself, why couldn't he at least guide him to the Baghdadi school, why don't you go and follow the Tajsimi school of the Qomi scholars? Isn't that where your Imams representative went for 'Aqeedah advice? 

Moreover, have you seen the historical calamity that is the Akhbari and Usooli school, did you know that the scholars of each school made takfir on each other, you don't even know what claims you're making at this point, go read your tragic history and perceive the misguidance of the occult imam with your own eyes, the Ahl al-Bayt have been hurt enough from this mess and it is time to clear their names. It is time to defend Imam Sadiq, Imam Baqir, Imam Zayd from these terrible attributions of exaggeration, of Mut'ah, of Taqiyyah.

Never once did the Zaydis ever experience this extreme misguidance, our Usul have been one, and they have never changed, how could they when it is from father to son? Look at our Hadith works they're all written by the Ahl al-Bayt, whereas yours are written from Qomi scholars who by the way believed in Tahreef (another disaster) all this and we ask where was your 12th Imams guidance, I advise you to read the book and come to the path of the Prophet and his progeny, and leave the path of those who have nothing to do with any of your 11 Imams, and the Mahdi of the end times.

Look at the writers of our works, and ask yourself who really follows the Ahl al-Bayt,

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Brother if there is one thing we can be certain of it is how astray the Twelver school is. 

I can quote much poisonous words to you about your creed and its misguidance. 

What is important for Twelver Imamiyyah  is that which is taught by the Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) , so if any of our Imam taught tajseem, or determinism etc please quote. 

If any person deviated from the teachings of Imams, it was not the fault of Imam but the fault of follower. So some started believing in the occultation of Muhammad bin Hanafiyyah, some started saying they don't have any Imam after Hussain (عليه السلام) whose obedience is made obligatory etc. 

I don't want to go in detail once again because you will start hating me. 

6 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Never once did the Zaydis ever experience this extreme misguidance,

That is being said by a person who is already straying away from the Sirat and he don't even know his Imam after Hussain (عليه السلام)  and don't even know the Imam of his time. 

So this ignorance itself is extreme misguidance. 

[Zaydism]

44 minutes ago, Cool said:

I can quote much poisonous words to you about your creed and its misguidance. 

Go ahead

45 minutes ago, Cool said:

What is important for Twelver Imamiyyah  is that which is taught by the Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) , so if any of our Imam taught tajseem, or determinism etc please quote. 

You understand that we quote from the teachings of Imam Sadiq, Imam Baqir, and Imam Kadhim? This is why I mentioned Hisham b. al-Hakm and the Qomi school, so you can understand who is attributing lies to the Imams.

46 minutes ago, Cool said:

I don't want to go in detail once again because you will start hating me. 

Not at all brother, but I hope you see the points I am making.

48 minutes ago, Cool said:

That is being said by a person who is already straying away from the Sirat and he don't even know his Imam after Hussain (عليه السلام)  and don't even know the Imam of his time. 

So this ignorance itself is extreme misguidance. 

You're presupposing the Sheikh al-Mufid Usuli Twelverism as the right path, I am telling you to not put the cart in front of the horse.

Brother, you have a blessing that not many have, you can read Arabic! Give it a chance, read the works of the Ahl al-Bayt, you don't need to live under assumptions, and fantasies. The reason I translated that book is so that non-Arabic speakers can have access to the clear Zaydi perspective that is free from all this misguidance, and false attributions to the Ahl al-Bayt, and keep in mind the words of Imam Zayd, they guided me and they can guide you and others as well:

 O Aba Ja`far I used to sit with my father to share a plate with him so he would feed me the choicest piece of meat and cool for me a hot morsel fearing for my health but he did not fear for me enough to save me from the hell-fire! How could it be that he informed you the truth about the religion [the presence of the Hujja] and did not inform me about it!

Source: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/9/3/37/2

Grading:

'Asif Muhsini = Mu'tabar

Sayyid Khu'i =  Commented on this Hadith as well when introducing Imam Zayd b. ’Ali in his Mu’jam stating
that the chain of this Hadith is very strong!

@Cool Go to page 58 of the book for a breakdown of this Hadith, it is a big thorn, and the only way you can save yourself from it is by claiming Imam Zayd has nothing to do with the Imamiyah.

[Muslim2010]

23 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I agree with both your points. 

Thanks for acceptance, This is itself refutation of your claims for selection, appointment (or bayah) by the people to those (false) imams who are not recognized (as divinely) appointed imams by the hadith of the prophet.  There is no hadith that mentions Zayd bin Ali and other Zaydiyah persons after him are imams. 

Thus i again mention my words for confirmation that form the basis in the light of verses of quran and hadith of the prophet:

 

On 11/26/2021 at 7:13 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Hadith thaqlayn defined Itrah / progeny of the prophet are not separated from the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and both will come to pool of paradise together. For guidance, the people should adhere to both instead of choosing themselves some ones as imams.

There is no evidence that out of progeny All are imams or these imams are  chosen by the people. The appointment of Imam Ali a,s. imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is clearly mentioned in hadiths (including 12 imams names mentioned in prophet hadiths  including first 3 imams) but that is missing for people chosen imams including Zayd bin Ali and about 140 after wards chosen by Zaydis.   Thus zadiya stance is already refuted many times in these threads.

Thus i stay with my words and they are fully aligned with the principles defined in the verses of Quran and hadith of the prophet s..a.w.: as given below:

wasalam

 

On 11/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Then in that case it is evident that Zayd bin Ali and all Zaydi imams  after him are not appointed imams by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but they are just like caliphs chosen by the people like the sunni concept of man made caliphate of first 3 caliphs.  There is no any difference in both sects /approaches.  

The religion is based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet instead of cherry picking some people and regard them as imams, 12vers have well defined principle in the light of verses of quran and the names of 12 imams mentioned by the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  which certainly refutes the other sects. The evidence also comes from Zadiya that share the same first 3 Imams as those of 12vers including Imam Ali , Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

I have already questioned these sunni and zadiya principles  in my earlier posts, the detail can be seen at the given link:

wasalam

wasalam

Edited November 28, 2021 by Muslim2010

[GEU_40]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

I can quote much poisonous words to you about your creed and its misguidance.

 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Go ahead

I think you have us confused with one of the schools of Ahlul Sunnah; we don't fall for taunts so easily, and transparent attempts steer this from an academic discussion to a mudslinging contest won't work on us.

 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

and the only way you can save yourself from it is by claiming Imam Zayd has nothing to do with the Imamiyah

...which would be the case if it's proven that:

-he rejected Imamate after being clearly presented with it at some point in the future

-Imam Baqar ((عليه السلام)) didn't give him his blessing for Jihad at some point in the future?

How sure are you that we don't have another tradition in the same Al-Kafi that nullifies both these points?

 

[Zaydism]

38 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

-he rejected Imamate after being clearly presented with it at some point in the future

Did you not read the narration? 

He is he has no idea what those who are saying his father, brother, and nephew are Imams are bringing these claims from, because his family (upon them be peace) never claimed such.

Imam al-Hādī ilal-Haq (Guide to the truth) Yahya b. al-Hussein b. al-Qāsim b. Ibrāhīm b. Ismāīl b. Ibrāhīm b. al-Hassan b. Hassan b. ‘Alī ع said:

Indeed, those who sought to separate between Zayd and Ja’far were a group of people who gave allegiance to Zayd b. ‘Ali. When the ruler of Kufa sought those who pledged allegiance to Zayd and promised to chastise them, they feared for their lives and broke their allegiance to Zayd, and rejected him, out of fear from the ruler. 

They did not know what to use as a legitimate excuse in the face of those who rebuked them, and mocked them for their retreat [from the Bay’ah of Zayd] so they concocted the belief of designation, they said: The designation was from ‘Ali b. al-Hussein to his son Muhammad, and from Muhammad it went to Ja’far. They did so in order to divert the people, and in doing so they deviated, and caused many others to deviate, and they all deviated from the rightly way. 

They followed the vain desires of themselves, choosing this world ahead of the hereafter, and those who preferred to stay back, and did not like fighting in the way of Allah followed suit in what they claimed. 

Thereafter, a group came and found words inscribed in books, and manuscripts, and they took what they found without comparison, and they moved ahead of their intellects, and they attributed these acts to the most righteous of them, of the sons of the Prophet  - Upon him and them be peace - as the Hashawiyyah attributed what they narrated of falsity, and fabricated lies to the Prophet - Upon him and his Progeny be peace - so as to ground their errancy on those who they made servants, and slaves for them.

Majmū’ Kutb wā-rasā’il al-Imam al-Hādī, Kitāb Ma’rifat Allāh 

https://t.me/TheZaydiSchool

[Zaydism]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

There is no hadith that mentions Zayd bin Ali and other Zaydiyah persons after him are imams. 

We believe that the religion was complete after the Prophet, which means we don't believe in Nass after the Prophet.

Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam as your religion. {5:3}

Hadith Thaqalayn = Following the 'itra

'itra = progeny 

Prophet's progeny are the sons of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein, there is no evidence to restrict Imamah to the sons of Imam Hussein.

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

Denial Of imam mahdi ((عليه السلام)) Is Blasphemy

Here we will prove that the denial of Iman-e-Zamana ((عليه السلام).) is synonymous to infidelity.

Quote

3. Scholar Shafai Mohammad Ibn Ibrahim Hamavi writes about the above Sura that Hasan Ibn Khalid enquired form Imam Ali bin Musa ((عليه السلام).) the meaning of "Waqtul Maloom the Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied' that its meaning is the day of reappearance of Imam Mehdi ((عليه السلام).)."

 

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The people one after the other embraced Islam with few exceptions who due to racial and tribal hatred refused to accept the Prophet of God  and were hell-bent to falsify the Holy Book descended on him by the God. It is clear that he who refuses to acknowledge him as Prophet and has no faith in his teachings and in Quran and in Doomsday. (Last day of judgment) is an infidel even if he claims to believe in all previous prophets and he can be called as an infidel. It is accepted by the Shias and Sunnis as well that the Prophet-hood of Hazrat Mohammad Mustafa is established by the Quran as well as by narration (Hadees). The Quran acclaimed Mohammad (Peace be on him and and his progeny) that resembles the above Sura of the Holy Book. The Prophet speaks that "Thirty of my followers would claim to be Prophets after me though I am the last and there will be no Prophet after me. "Thus a person who has faith in any Prophet after the holpy prophet and in any other book after Holy Quran is also an infidel as the finality of prophethood and Quran is an established fact by Quran itself and one who denies it is an infidel

 

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 In the same way even Mahdaviyat is a established fact by Quran and one who rejects it will be an infidel. The Quran and the belief in Mahdaviyat : 1. "And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it." (Zukhruf : 61) The gret well-known Sunni interpretor of Quran, Muqaatil bin Sulaiman, says about the above verse as follows : "This verse is revealed about Mahdi.

3. Those who have no faith in it and hide the facts are doing so due to sectarian bigotry. If any one inspite of knowing these factsis refusing to accept he should be ready to brave the anger of Imam ((عليه السلام).)

Quote

 1. Mahdaviyat is a religions belief. It has found mention both in Quran as well as in Ahadees. 2. Denial from this faith is in fact denial from Islamic tenets such persons are called infidels. 3. Those who have no faith in it and hide the facts are doing so due to sectarian bigotry. If any one inspite of knowing these factsis refusing to accept he should be ready to brave the anger of Imam ((عليه السلام).) on the day of his re-appearance: Then we can not say that the facts were not known to us. On the day of judgement all will be presented before God, then according to the saying (Hadees) of the Prophet ((عليه السلام).) that "one" who will die without knowing the Imam of his time die as an infidel. Then according to Quran "On that day all mankind would be called along with their Imams." Beware of that day when you (Muslims) would also be told to come out from the queue and to stand along with infidels. Then those Muslims would ask with wonder, Oh God ! We were all Muslims. Then they would we questioned whether they were knowing the Imam of their time.

http://www.shiastudy.ir/en/shia-history/imam-mahdi/denial-of-mahdi-a-s-is-blasphemy

http://www.shiastudy.ir/en/shia-history/imam-mahdi?start=40

https://www.erfan.ir/english/34666.html

http://sarbazaneislam.com/en/imam-mahdi/1168-denial-of-imam-mahdi-is-blasphemy.html

Deniers of Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).)

Ahmad Kasravi

Ahmad Kasravi had been unjust upon the Shia people and attributed falsehood and made allegations about them regarding the Imam of the time ((عليه السلام).) saying:

“When Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) passed away in 260 A.H., a great problem arose because he did not leave behind any issue. The Rafidis (Shias) fell into great confusion and many divisions appeared among them. A group claimed that the purpose of Imamate was over hence it had come to an end. A group began to follow Jafar, the brother of Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).).

Quote

Ibn Khaldun

 Therefore he conjectured that the subject of His Eminence, Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) was a Shiite belief or he has put himself in doubt regarding this matter. On the basis of this, be has written a long chapter in his well-known Proglamena. (Chapter on Fatimids or that which the people did unto them).”1

Muhammad Amin Baghdadi

Muhammad Amin Baghdadi, famous as Suwaidi, has denied the existence of His Eminence, the Awaited Imam ((عليه السلام).) but said that he shall be born in the future. He also says, “The Shias think that he disappeared into a basement of Samarrah in 262 A.H. and he is the sword-bearer and one who would arise prior to Qiyamat. Also that before his reappearance he shall have two occultations, one of them being longer than the other.”

Ahmad Kasravi

Ahmad Kasravi had been unjust upon the Shia people and attributed falsehood and made allegations about them regarding the Imam of the time ((عليه السلام).) saying:

“When Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) passed away in 260 A.H., a great problem arose because he did not leave behind any issue. The Rafidis (Shias) fell into great confusion and many divisions appeared among them. A group claimed that the purpose of Imamate was over hence it had come to an end. A group began to follow Jafar, the brother of Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).).

Ahmad Amin

Ahmad Amin, like the Magian Kasravi is also having malice and jealously against Imams of guidance ((عليه السلام).), whom the Almighty Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has purified from all filth and impurities. He also issued statements on the basis of his bigotry, instead of referring to authentic Shia sources.

Shukri Afandi

Shukri Afandi Baghdadi has composed a panegyric in which he has expressed doubts about Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) and has denied him! He says:

“O the scholars of the time! O those who know everything (deeply). The thought about him is perplexing.”

 

Quote

Imam Kashiful Ghita has in response to Afandi composed a beautiful panegyric, which runs as follows:

“My life be sacrificed for one who is far away from home, but whom remembrance brought close.
And the fascination and remembrance of his followers have kept him near.”

This complete panegyric is quoted in the book, Ilzamun Nasib.

https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-al-mahdi-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/deniers-imam-mahdi

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Prophet's progeny are the sons of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein, there is no evidence to restrict Imamah to the sons of Imam Hussein.

Does Ahlul Bayt include the Nine descendants of Imam Husain((عليه السلام).) ?

Quote

"A Jew named al-A`tal came to the Prophet and said, "Muhammad! I wish to ask you about certain things which I have been keeping to myself; so, if you answer them, I shall declare my acceptance of Islam before you." The Prophet said, "Ask me, O father of Imarah!" So he asked him about many things till he was satisfied and admitted that the Prophet was right. Then he said, "Tell me about your wasi (successor): who is he? No prophet can ever be without a wasi; our prophet Moses had appointed Yusha` [Joshua] son of Noon as his successor." He said, "My wasi is Ali ibn Abu Talib followed by my grandsons al-Hasan and al-Husayn followed by nine men from the loins of al-Husayn." He said, "Then name them for me, O Muhammad!" The Prophet said, "Once al-Husayn departs, he will be succeeded by his son Ali; when Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ja`far will succeed him. When Ja`far departs, he will be succeeded by his son Musa. When Musa departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son al-Hasan will succeed him, and when al-Hasan departs, al-Hujjah Muhammad al-Mahdi will succeed him. These are the twelve ones." That Jew, therefore, embraced Islam and praised Allah for having guided him."

https://www.erfan.ir/english/90110.html

Imam al-Mahdi is from the descendants of Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام).) and Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).)

By: Ayatullah al-Uzma Lutfullah as-Safi al-Gulpaygani

Comprised of 125 traditions

 

The mother of Imam Abū Ja`far Muḥammad b. `Alī ibn al-Ḥusayn, peace be on them, was Fāṭima, the daughter of Imam

#7716;[H]asan) al-Mujtabā, the older grandson. Thus, our master Imam al-Bāqir and all the seven Imams who succeeded him to Imam al-Mahdī, peace be on them, are from the generation of Imam al-Ḥasan as well as Imam al-Ḥusayn as has been mentioned by the Holy Prophet, 

Quote

prophet  Muhammad (pbu):

528. Al-Amālī al-Shaykh3: In a lengthy tradition through his chains of narrators from Imam `Alī b. al-Ḥusayn, peace be on him, which includes Jābir honoring Imam al-Ḥasan and Imam al-Ḥusayn, peace be on them . . . to where Jābir said: One day, the Messenger of Allah, Allah�s blessings be on him and his family, was with us in the mosque and was surrounded by the people, when he said to me, �O Jābir! Call Ḥasan and Ḥusayn for me,� and he was extremely fond of both of them......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

...................These two halves�from me and `Alī�came together and resulted in the birth of al-Jahr and al-Jahīr (i.e. al-Ḥasan and al-Ḥusayn) and through them,

He sealed the grandsons of prophethood. He placed my seed (al-dhurriya) in both of them and ordered me to conquer the city�or cities�of disbelief. From his seed�pointing to al-Ḥusayn, peace be on him�a person will emerge in the end of times. He will fill the earth with justice just as it will be filled with unfairness and injustice. These two are the pure and purified ones. They are the masters of the youths of Paradise. Salvation is for those who love them, their father, and their mother, and woe to those who fight them and have hatred towards them.�
The traditions with the following numbers also show the aforementioned concept: 94�160, 463, 464, 465, 543, 546�548, 550�571, 590, 608, 641, 770, and 786�807.
Notes:
1. Dhakhā�ir al-uqbā, �Fi dhikr mā jā�a anna l-Mahdī fī ākhir al-zamān,� p. 136.
I say: The mother of Imam Abū Ja`far Muḥammad b. `Alī ibn al-Ḥusayn, peace be on them, was Fāṭima, the daughter of Imam

#7716;[H]asan) al-Mujtabā, the older grandson. Thus, our master Imam al-Bāqir and all the seven Imams who succeeded him to Imam al-Mahdī, peace be on them, are from the generation of Imam al-Ḥasan as well as Imam al-Ḥusayn as has been mentioned by the Holy Prophet, Allah\'s blessings be on him and his family. This news is knowledge of the unseen and one of the signs of his prophethood.

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=11778

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Deniers of Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).)

Ahmad Kasravi

Salam it's offtopic however indicates fate of of one of deniers of Imam Mahdi (aj) (warning contains  graphical  Image & content )

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Ahmad Shahab, born in 1919 is one of the first and active members of the devotees of Islam and is considered among the close friends of Sayyed Mojtaba Mir Lohi [Navab Safavi]. He has witnessed many of this group’s political and military actions and he has...

 http://danamotor.ir/media/Ahmad_Kasravi_Younghood_Death_Murderers.jpg

By: Morteza Rasouli Poor

 

Quote

He has actively participated in a few cases such as the murder of Ahmad Kasravi (1945)  

 

□ It seems that Navab Safavi had met Kasravi and talked with him once and had tried to assassinate him one before he was murdered. Explain this.

In a meeting held at Kasravi’s house where a group of people including several army officers were present, Navab participated too. There he mentioned his beliefs to Kasravi but they threw him out. When Navab realized talking with Kasravi is of no use, he attacked Kasravi a while later in Ab Sardar with a knife and injured his shoulder. Kasravi was hospitalized and brigadier Saffari, then police chief, arrested Navab and sent him to prison.¹ Once more Navab told Kasravi: “do something to shorten your life or you will trouble us.” In this way Navab did not give up and met with Ibrahim Daryani to obtain a pistol and said I have 3000 Rls but it’s not enough for a religious deed I have in mind, you help me get a pistol. Daryani told him that his situation is not well and he is broke. Upon hearing this, Navab left all his money in Daryani’s shop and left. Finally after a few days Daryani provided enough money for the pistol and gave it to Navab. At this time Kasravi was out of hospital and we mounted the clergies’ decree on Kasravi deserving death on the walls and distributed the decree out of cliché.

 

 

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□ Do you mean the same decree by Najaf’s clergies and authorities or the clergies in Iran?

I mean the decree by Ayatollah Boroujerdi and that of Ayatollah Sadr, father of Imam Musa Sadr. Ayatollah Kashani was against Kasravi too but he was in exile in Lebanon at the time. After this the pressure on Kasravi increase so much that the government was forced to put him on trial. We were informed that Kasravi is going to be sentenced to only three months of imprisonment for publication of misleading books while Navab and we were after his execution. So we went to the court during the course of his trial and took a number of bazaar merchants with us. The head of bazar police station was Khansari who helped us a lot and only let those who had beard enter the court that day, on the second or third day of Kasravi’s trial a person named Javad Mozaffari came to court and shot Kasravi and his secretary, Hadadpoor. Navab had ordered another one of our men named Sheikh Mahdi Shariatmadar to wait in a car in front of the department of justice. He took Mozaffari to Lahijan. Not the king, nor the government or the people knew about this. Neither does anyone else until now.

 

 

 

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□ In sources, Hussein Emami is introduced as the agent of this murder.

Yes, Emami’s work was to enter the court room after Kasravi’s murder and ripped his stomach out. The prosecutor who was scared had hid under the table and passed out there. When Emami left the court, he screamed Allah-o-Akbar2; while holding a bloody knife and went to the police station and said: I killed Kasravi, the man who burns the Quran! In the police station, at first they throw him out thinking he has lost his mind. Then they got news from Sina hospital than Kasravi and his secretary are there and that’s when they arrested Emami. So we had to do something to release Emami from prison. That’s why we went to Ayatollah Behbahani’s mosque from the police station. The important point was that Kasravi was shot and the police knew that was the cause of his death but why and how Emami had a bloody knife?! So a few of the system’s agents knew that Emami is not the real murderer. Anyhow, Ayatollah Behbahani was in the mosque when we got there. We told him Emami did something which his ancestor would have done if he was here. We decided to go to premiership in Ark square and request Emami’s freedom. Mr. Feiz who was a translator of Nahj-ol-Balaghe3 was in front. Shams-al-Din Abhari, the prayer leader of Imam Hussein mosque, and other clergies accompanied us. In Ark square Mr. Abhari gave a speech and said according to the decree by clergies, Kasravi deserved to be killed so the murderer must be released. Ghavam-al-Saltaneh was prime minister at the time and Mozafar Firooz was his deputy. Firooz came out on the balcony and said: “the prime minister has foreign guests.” Feiz-al-Islam answered: “You can’t do anything, tell Ghavam-al-Saltaneh to come, we don’t care about the foreign guest.” When Ghavam heard this he came out. Feiz-al-Islam told Ghavam: the clerics have ordered Emami’s release. It was the hand of Iran’s brave nation that came out of Emami’s sleeve and killed a filthy man.” Ghavam took out a card from his pocket and wrote something for the chief police officer and gave it to us to deliver. With the same people, chanting “inna fatahna lak fathan mobina4, we went to the police prison and released Emami. There was a strange uproar in the prison; the people sacrificed cows and camels. We felt as though we own the city. Then we went toKasravi’s library in front of Melli bank and turned it upside down. Hekmat-Allah Azimi, who is still alive, and I threw all Kasravi’s books out and burned them. Of course we took the good books for the children. So Kasravi’s case ended.

 

□ Who was Javad Mozaffari? There is no name of him in the files related to the works of devotees of Islam; did he engage in other actions?

He was a man with religious interests. His only deed was Kasravi’s murder and he didn’t engage in any other action. Martyr Navab ordered the erasing of his name. Until recently he had watch shop in Rey Streetand passed away a few years ago. His brother, who was also a clergy man, has passed away too.

 

http://www.iichs.ir/News-1765/Devotees-of-Islam,-Interview-with-Ahmad-Shahab/?id=1765

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

 O Aba Ja`far I used to sit with my father to share a plate with him so he would feed me the choicest piece of meat and cool for me a hot morsel fearing for my health but he did not fear for me enough to save me from the hell-fire! How could it be that he informed you the truth about the religion [the presence of the Hujja] and did not inform me about it!

Source: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/9/3/37/2

Grading:

'Asif Muhsini = Mu'tabar

Sayyid Khu'i =  Commented on this Hadith as well when introducing Imam Zayd b. ’Ali in his Mu’jam stating
that the chain of this Hadith is very strong

Narration goes further:

! I said to him: may I be made your ransom – it is only because of his fear of hell-fire for you you that he did not inform you! he feared for you that you would reject it and enter the fire, but he informed me [not caring either way] so if I accept I am saved and he was not bothered that I enter the fire [if I reject]. Then I said to him: may I be made your ransom are you better or the prophets? He said: the prophets, I said: Ya`qub said to Yusuf: “O my son – do not relate your dream to your brothers for they will devise a plot against you” (12:5) why not inform them and expect them not to devise a plot against him but rather he was to keep it a secret from them [so as not to tempt them]? the same way your father kept it a secret from you because he feared for you. He said: by Allah! now that you mention that – your man [the Imam] narrated to me in Madina that I am to be killed and crucified in Kinasa and that he has a book which tells of my killing and crucifixion in it. Later I [al-Ahwal] made the pilgrimage and relayed to Aba Abdillah عليه السلام my conversation with Zayd, so he said to me: you took him from in front and from behind, from the right and from the left, from above his head and from below his legs and did not leave him any room to wiggle out.

First of all, this narration proves Imamah of Muhammad Al-Baqir (عليه السلام). since he himself is claiming to be an Imam.

Secondly, it's not something that's special about us Imamiyah. Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام) didn't let Brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) know about his dream or that Yusuf (عليه السلام) is a prophet. For sure this would've saved Yusuf (عليه السلام) from getting into trouble and his brothers from going near one of biggest sins. ( hurting two prophets ). But he knew a bigger sin that brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) would've committed if he told them and he refrained from telling brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) all the secrets. Similarly Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) didn't mention it to Zayd.

Both waited for right time to let Brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Zayd (رضي الله عنه) know about the right path.

[Muslim2010]

Just now, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

First of all, this narration proves Imamah of Muhammad Al-Baqir (عليه السلام). since he himself is claiming to be an Imam.

Secondly, it's not something that's special about us Imamiyah. Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام) didn't let Brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) know about his dream or that Yusuf (عليه السلام) is a prophet. For sure this would've saved Yusuf (عليه السلام) from getting into trouble and his brothers from going near one of biggest sins. ( hurting two prophets ). But he knew a bigger sin that brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) would've committed if he told them and he refrained from telling brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) all the secrets. Similarly Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) didn't mention it to Zayd.

Both waited for right time to let Brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Zayd (رضي الله عنه) know about the right path.

"Shah G, 6ka laga dia app ny", I admire 

wasalam

[Zaydism]

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

First of all, this narration proves Imamah of Muhammad Al-Baqir (عليه السلام). since he himself is claiming to be an Imam.

The point here is to show how after we have established there is 

A - No narration which designates the Imams pre-occultation

and 

B - These narrations were all fabricated, and concocted after the occultation, and the Rijaali scholar Sheikh Muhammad Baqir al-Bahbahudi agrees with me

The Hadiths that have been narrated to designate Twelve Imams collectively (by name and number), such as the Hadith of the tablet, and it’s like, were all concocted/fabricated during the time of the occultation, era of confusion (عصر الحيرة), and before that time by a little.
For, if these narrations were available to the Imāmī Shī’a, they would not have been left disillusioned between themselves, as they sought to know who the Imams were, and there wouldn’t have been an era of confusion – they wouldn’t have needed to hurry and publish books that prove the occultation, and seek to alleviate the confusion from the hearts of the Ummāh (community) with such vast efforts.

Source: Ma’rīfat al-Hadīth, pg. 172

C -  That even the very sons of the Imams such as Imam Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq, Zayd b. Musa al-Kadhim, Imam Zayd b. 'Ali b, Ja'far al-Zaki (who you slander and call Kadhab), Imam 'Abdullah b. Hassan b. Hassan, and so many more members of the Ahl al-Bayt did not know the Imamah of their fathers, brothers, nephews, and cousins!

D - Your argument is completely against the Qur'an Allah says:

And warn ˹all, starting with˺ your closest relatives, {26:214} And O believers! Protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones {66:6}

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Both waited for right time to let Brothers of Yusuf (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Zayd (رضي الله عنه) know about the right path.

This was before Imam Zayd rose against the tyrant Hisham, and you are trying to say that his father, brother, and nephew all hid their Imamah from him throughout his entire life?! What a slander is this, do you know Sayyid Khu'i agrees with me and thinks it's mindboggling to assume that Imam Zayd wasn't informed, this is why he tries to take the route of taqiyyah in his explanation of the Hadith. Again, refer to page 58 for al-Kadhim al-Zaydi (h.a) comments on it.

You can't say Nabi Yusuf hid his Prophethood, therefore, the Imams can hide their Imamah, this is because they knew that their father was a Prophet, whereas the family of the Imams, and Imam Zayd did not know of the Imamah of single member of his family except through those who were attributing it to them.

Ibn al-Athīr said:

A group came to Ja’far b. Muhammad al-Sādiq before the uprising of Zayd, and they informed him of Zayd seeking allegiance. 

He said: Give him allegiance [Bay’ah] by Allāh, he is the best of us, and our leader - they [the Rāfidha] returned and concealed what was said to them. 

Al-Kāmil fī al-Tārīkh, 4/266

[Zaydism]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Here we will prove that the denial of Iman-e-Zamana ((عليه السلام).) is synonymous to infidelity.

To deny occult Imams is to give justice to the mercy of Allah, moreover, he who considers a Muslim an infidel is himself an infidel as per the Prophet, you see everything crumbling in front of you, so this is what you resort to.

Quote

 

It has been said: Imam al-Mahdi (the Awaited), is alive, and occult. He sees and is not seen,
he is present with the people, and he is a proof (Hujjah) over the people, and their rescuer from
damnation and chastisement, what do you say regarding this O’ Imam?

al-Mansur Billah said: What is the sin of the confused if this is the description of the proof of
Allah (al-Hujjah), where there is no means to reach him? What is his sin in the face of his Lord,
for the Imams are obliged to make themselves known, and advise the people; let alone those who seek to be in his presence and increase his audience.

 

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

These narrations were all fabricated

I don't participate in discussions now a days.

But can you let people know why are you quoting fabrications then?

First you quote Asif Muhseni and Ayatullah Khoei to establish narration is authentic and strong.

Then you quote Baqir Al-Behbudi to establish narrations are fabrications.

3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

The Hadiths that have been narrated to designate Twelve Imams collectively (by name and number), such as the Hadith of the tablet, and it’s like, were all concocted/fabricated during the time of the occultation, era of confusion (عصر الحيرة), and before that time by a little.
For, if these narrations were available to the Imāmī Shī’a, they would not have been left disillusioned between themselves, as they sought to know who the Imams were, and there wouldn’t have been an era of confusion – they wouldn’t have needed to hurry and publish books that prove the occultation, and seek to alleviate the confusion from the hearts of the Ummāh (community) with such vast efforts.

Source: Ma’rīfat al-Hadīth, pg. 172

Baqir Behbudi sahab has got no proof for his claim.

Argument he gave is not strong actually.

Example: during Era of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), all Muslims believe he showed many miracles right, but wide majority of people remained kuffar / munafiqeen. Why? 

Every sensible person would be convinced if someone came to one and split moon into two, etc. But no.

Even though path of haq was crystal clear for them, they choose to remain kafirs and some munafiqeen.

So by this logic, it has been proved all these miracles of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are fake stories? Lol nauzobillah because no one got convinced by them or believed in him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

If people from shias abandoned imamah, they followed their leaders in doing so just like others did. This proves their ignorance and hatred for Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Baqir Behbudi isn't a classical scholar. 

Hadeeth of 12 imams comes via Ashaab Al Ijma. I hope you understand what that means.

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

That even the very sons of the Imams such as Imam Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq, Zayd b. Musa al-Kadhim, Imam Zayd b. 'Ali b, Ja'far al-Zaki (who you slander and call Kadhab), Imam 'Abdullah b. Hassan b. Hassan, and so many more members of the Ahl al-Bayt did not know the Imamah of their fathers, brothers, nephews, and cousins!

Yep we do. And will continue to do so. We praise family of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for their excellent character and obedience to Allah Almighty. If someone from his descendants go astray, he just like other people who went astray and got cursed.

Also you'll find hadiths in which infallibles criticized those persons you mentioned.

Being a newphew, cousin of Prophet / Imam doesn't mean one can't go astray or become a disbeliever.

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This was before Imam Zayd rose against the tyrant Hisham, and you are trying to say that his father, brother, and nephew all hid their Imamah from him throughout his entire life?!

Brother ( Imam Baqir ) told him (Zayd) about imamah according to narration you just quoted. Read it.

Listen brother, as a Zaydi Shia, you've right to dismiss all these narrations because they are not a hujjah for you.

But thinking you can use narrations of twelvers to prove your point, thats far from reality.

You should debate some knowledgeable twelvers over Imamah in Quran not Hadiths as neither They're hujjah for you, nor they prove what you try to prove from them.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Ibn al-Athīr said:

A group came to Ja’far b. Muhammad al-Sādiq before the uprising of Zayd, and they informed him of Zayd seeking allegiance. 

He said: Give him allegiance [Bay’ah] by Allāh, he is the best of us, and our leader - they [the Rāfidha] returned and concealed what was said to them. 

Al-Kāmil fī al-Tārīkh, 

Not a Hujjah for us and neither for you. Its a sunni source isnt it?

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You can't say Nabi Yusuf hid his Prophethood, therefore, the Imams can hide their Imamah, this is because they knew that their father was a Prophet, whereas the family of the Imams, and Imam Zayd did not know of the Imamah of single member of his family except through those who were attributing it to them

Multiple imams ( children of imams ) testified to imamah of each other. How can you make such claims. We've hadiths.

Yes some weren't told, some were aware and some went astray despite knowing haq.

Imam zayd didn't know because it was hidden from him just Like Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) said in above hadith. Thats our answer. And we can definitely compare it to story of Yusuf (عليه السلام).

[Zaydism]

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Hadeeth of 12 imams comes via Ashaab Al Ijma. I hope you understand what that means.

Zurarah, Hisham, al-Taq, et al. Did not know who the Imam was after each Imam.

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

But can you let people know why are you quoting fabrications then?

Because, we won't get anywhere unless I share Hadiths which you believe in? 

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

But thinking you can use narrations of twelvers to prove your point, thats far from reality.

Brother, if I take your standards I can end this debate with two points.

We share Qur'an and Hadith Thaqalayn 

A - Qur'an said religion was perfected after the Prophet, therefore, no Nass after the Prophet.

B - The Prophet left the Qur'an and 'itra, the 'itra are the sons of Imam Hassan, and Imam Hussein.

Conclusion: You don't have evidence to restrict the 'itra to the sons of Imam Hussein only.

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Not a Hujjah for us and neither for you. Its a sunni source isnt it?

So you don't believe in using Qara'in? Every Twelver I have discussed with seems to create their own epistemology from thin air, but believe me any route you take will lead you to a dead end, the only school that can establish its Usul is the Zaidiyyah.

[Zaydism]

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Baqir Behbudi sahab has got no proof for his claim.

 

Page 51 onwards goes to show why he is most justified in what he says, you just throw him and Sheikh 'Asif Muhsini under the bus when you don't like the conclusions they make.

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

you see everything crumbling in front of you, so this is what you resort to.

Salam I have provided a conclusion of narrations not my idea so I have not  called any muslim likewise you as infidel nevertheless  you multiple time have denied infabillity of  Imams except Amir al muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & his two sons also you have denied birth of Imam Mahdi (aj) & his occultation  also your last resort for denying it comes from al-Mansur Billah who has been an Ismaili  Fatimid king which doesn't  prove any Zaydi viewpoint  so threfore has not hold water for your crumbling weak idea.

 

[Zaydism]

39 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I have not  called any muslim likewise you as infidel

 

23 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

denial of Iman-e-Zamana ((عليه السلام).) is synonymous to infidelity.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Kamal al-Din - quoting Safwan Ibn Mehran - Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "Whoever confesses to all Imams, but denies the Mahdi, is like one who confesses to all the prophets, but denies the prophethood of Muhammad "Peace on him and his  progeny." It was said: O son of the Prophet of Allah! Who is the Mahdi of your generation? He said: "The fifth of the seventh generation, whose body is absent from you and it is not permissible for you to mention his name." 1

1. كمال الدين ، ص 333 ، ح 1 و ، ص 338 ، ح 12 ، عن عبد اللّه بن أبي يعفور

Kamal al-Din , p 333 , H 1 & , P 338 , H 12 from Abd Allah b. Abi Ya'fur

http://nb7.ir/19

Quote

Credibility and Status [Abd Allah b. Abi Ya'fu]

Al-Najashi considered him as thiqa thiqa^[9] (the most trustworthy of the trustworthy); Muhaddith Nuri regarded him as a notable twelver jurist such as Zurara.^[10] In addition, he was a man of piety and ijtihad among companions of Imam in Kufa.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abd_Allah_b._Abi_Ya'fur

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Kamal_al-din_wa_tamam_al-ni'ma_(book)

 

in addendum majority of sunni scholars even wahabists & Salafists likewise Albani  have called deniers of [Imam] Mahdi & his uprising as heretics & infidels

Sunni viewpoint 

Quote

Jabir Ibn Abdullah quotes the Messenger of Allah (may God bless him and grant him and his progeny peace) that "whoever denies the Dajjal becomes an infidel and whoever denies the Mahdi becomes an infidel."

The Messenger of Allah (pbu): "Whoever denies the resvolution  of the Mahdi has disbelieved in what has been revealed to the Messenger of Allah (pbu)" 3

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his progeny ): "Whoever denies the Dajjal is a disbeliever and whoever denies the Mahdi is a disbeliever."

Therefore, denying the Mahdi and Mahdism is disbelieving and causes the denier to become an infidel

1. عقد الدرر في أخبار المنتظر وهو المهدي عليه السلام ، ص 230 ، ح 262 ،  [ + متن عربی حدیث ]
2. التصريح بما تواتر في نزول المسيح ، ص 242 ، ح 60 ، [ + متن عربی حدیث ]
3.  لوامع الأنوار البهية ، ج 2 ، ص 84 ، [ + متن عربی حدیث ]

http://nb7.ir/19

Quote

The ruling denying Hazrat Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) from the point of view of the Sunnis
Question: What is the ruling on denying Hazrat Mahdi (عليه السلام) and his appearance in the eyes of the Sunnis?
Concise answer:
Some Sunni scholars have considered believing in the departure of Hazrat Mahdi ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) as obligatory, while others have considered denying it as infidel. Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Siddiq says: "Belief in the departure of the Mahdi is obligatory  and belief in his appearance in order to acknowledge the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is certain and fixed." The same interpretation has been given to scholars such as Safarini Hanbali, Nasser al-Din al-Bani, Abd al-Muhsin ibn Hamad al-Abad.

Detailed answer:
Some Sunni scholars have considered believing in the departure of Hazrat Mahdi ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) obligatory, while others have considered denier of it as infidel. Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Siddiq says: "Belief in the departure of the Mahdi is obligatory  and belief in his appearance in order to confirm the Prophet (peace be upon him) is certain and fixed ..." (1) The same interpretation of Hanbali ambassadors (2) , Nasir al-Din al-Bani (3), Abdul Muhsin bin Hamad al-Abad (4) has also arrived. The Shafi'i jurist Ibn Hajar has stated that if the denial of the Mahdi leads to the denial of the Sunnah from its origin, it will lead to disbelief, and whoever does so is obliged to kill him, and if the denial is only due to stubbornness and enmity with the Imams of Islam and not the Sunnah, it is necessary. Which made him a clear ta'zir and an insult in order to stop doing so. (5) Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Siddiq Ghamari Azhari says in relation to the hadiths of Mahdism: (6), (7)

پی نوشت:

(1). ابزار الوهم المكنون، ص 433.

(2). الاذاعة، سيد محمد صديق حسن، مؤسسة سعودي، مصر، بی تا، ص 146.

(3). مجله التمدن الاسلامى، شماره 22، ص 643.

(4). مجله الجماعة الاسلامية، شماره 3.

(5). البرهان، ص 178.

(6). المهدى المنتظر، ص 5.

(7). گردآوری از: موعود شناسی و پاسخ به شبهات، رضواني، علی اصغر، مسجد مقدس جمکران، قم، چاپ هفتم، 1390 ش، ص 149

https://translate.google.com/?sl=fa&tl=en&text=حکم منکر حضرت مهدی(عج) از ديدگاه اهل سنت پرسش %3A حکم منکر حضرت مهدی(عجل الله) و ظهور او در نزد اهل سنت چیست؟ پاسخ اجمالی%3A برخى از علماى اهل سنت، ايمان به خروج حضرت مهدى(عج) را واجب دانسته و برخى ديگر منكر آن را كافر به حساب آورده اند. احمد بن محمد بن صديق مى گويد%3A «ايمان به خروج مهدى واجب و اعتقاد به ظهور او به جهت تصديق پيامبر(ص) حتمى و ثابت است». همين تعبير از علمايي چون سفارينى حنبلى، ناصرالدين البانى، عبدالمحسن بن حمد العباد نيز رسيده است. پاسخ تفصیلی%3A برخى از علماى اهل سنت، ايمان به خروج حضرت مهدى(عجل الله تعالی فرجه الشريف) را واجب دانسته و برخى ديگر منكر آن را كافر به حساب آورده اند. احمد بن محمد بن صديق مى گويد%3A «ايمان به خروج مهدى واجب و اعتقاد به ظهور او به جهت تصديق پيامبر(صلى الله عليه و آله) حتمى و ثابت است ...».(1) همين تعبير از سفارينى حنبلى(2)، ناصرالدين البانى(3)، عبدالمحسن بن حمد العباد(4) نيز رسيده است. فقيه شافعى ابن حجر تصريح كرده كه انكار مهدى اگر موجب انكار سنت از اصل و اساس گردد، سبب كفر مى شود و هر كس چنين كند قتلش واجب است و اگر انكار، تنها به جهت عناد و دشمنى با ائمه اسلام است نه سنت، لازم است كه او را تعزير آشكار و اهانت نمود تا دست از اين كار بردارد.(5) احمد بن محمد بن صديق غمارى ازهرى در رابطه با احاديث مهدويت مى گويد%3A «اين احاديث، متواترند و منكرين آنها بدعت گزار و گمراه به حساب مى آيند».(6)،(7)&op=translate

http://www.makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=43&lid=0&mid=409132&catid=-2

Wahabi/Salafi viewpoint 

Quote

These are like those who deny the belief in the descending  of Isa (عليه السلام) at the end of time - about which the authentic hadiths have been repeated ... and I say with certainty that everyone denies  the belief to the Mahdi (aj) , it is also denied it, and some of them have expressed this belief unintentionally (due to slipping), and the example of all this group of denial - the departure of the Mahdi (عليه السلام) - is to me like one who is the denied divinity  of Allah Almighty. likewise claim some pharaohs . So is there a receiver?
Series of authentic Albanian hadiths, vol. 4, p. 43, Maktab al-Ma'arif

و ما مثل هؤلاء إلا كمثل من ينكر عقيدة نزول عيسي عليه السلام في آخر الزمان التي تواتر ذكرها في الأحاديث الصحيحة ،... ، و أكاد أقطع أن كل من أنكر عقيدة المهدي ينكرها أيضا ، و بعضهم يظهر ذلك من فلتات لسانه ، و إن كان لا يبين . و ما مثل هؤلاء المنكرين جميعا عندي إلا كما لو أنكر رجل ألوهية الله عز وجل بدعوي أنه ادعاها بعض الفراعنة ! " فهل من مدكر"

سلسله الاحاديث الصحيحه آلباني ج4 ص 43 مكتبه المعارف

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/persian/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=6147

conclusion 

Anyone  whether Sunni or Shia who denies Imam Mahdi (aj) & his uprising according to scholars of Sunnis even wahabists  & Salafists and Shia narrations is an Infidel .

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/منکران_مهدویت

[Zaydism]

41 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

al-Mansur Billah who has been an Ismaili  Fatimid king which doesn't  prove any Zaydi viewpoint  so threfore has not hold water for your crumbling weak idea.

You know that there were more than one “al-Mansur Billah” This one is ‘Abdullah b. Hamza b. Sulieman… b. Hassan b. Hassan b. ‘Alī

[Zaydism]

2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Anyone  whether Sunni or Shia who denies Imam Mahdi (aj) & his uprising according to scholars of Sunnis even wahabists  & Salafists and Shia narrations is an Infidel .

Why are you sharing this then? Zaydis believe that there will be a Mahdi in the end times.