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In the Name of God بسم الله

A Zaydi Refutation of The Occultation


Zaidism

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9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

denial of Iman-e-Zamana ((عليه السلام).) is synonymous to infidelity.

There is a subtle message here; what brother @Ashvazdanghe quoted is actually in line with a general belief; those who deny the Imams, or one of the Imams after clear proof, will be an infidel in the hereafter.

However, those who keep neutral or silent in this matter are a different case entirely. Most non-Imami Muslims on Earth are either unaware, don't take strong stances in this matter, so they don't fall into this category.

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@Sabrejet I don't understand why you are bringing up irrelevant points, okay so you guys are Takfiris as well, what's your point? 

It's like me telling a Christian the logical problem of the trinity, and he's telling me I will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my Lord. 

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9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I don't understand why you are bringing up irrelevant points, okay so you guys are Takfiris as well, what's your point? 

It's like me telling a Christian the logical problem of the trinity, and he's telling me I will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my Lord.

What I was trying to convey, my keyboard-happy friend, was that we are not takfiris, and your attempts to prove otherwise are frankly tiring.

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On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

This is why I mentioned Hisham b. al-Hakm and the Qomi school, so you can understand who is attributing lies to the Imams

Whatever you are quoting, quoting out of ignorance about them. Neither Hisham nor Qummi were deviated from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

Character assassination is a different thing.

On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

but I hope you see the points I am making.

You don't really have any point. You have 1000's of so called "refutations" with you for refuting:

* Imamate of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام)

* Imamate of Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام)

* Imamate of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) to Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) 

* Their infallibility

But these are only the "rejection" of accepting the truth. Nothing else.

You have divided the Imamate by coining different terminologies like "Imams of knowledge", So you are free from obeying the Imams of knowledge? Or you think Imams of knowledge should follow the ignorant?

I wish you would have learned where the knowledge actually resides!!! I wish you could see the "Mukhlaseen". 

On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

You're presupposing the Sheikh al-Mufid Usuli Twelverism as the right path, I am telling you to not put the cart in front of the horse.

My relationship with the Truth is more older that the Sheikh Mufeed عليه الرحمة. 

And believe me, it doesn't need the confirmation nor the ideology of any Allamah e Dahar.

I just simply know the "right path" you can consider it علم الحضوري. I have witnessed it , I have attested it and I am on it till my last breath. 

On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

you have a blessing that not many have, you can read Arabic!

If you knew how I learned "reading" Arabic and how I understand Arabic!!! You would not have made this thread.

I am just zero in Arabic. Its just a door of divine mercy which some times opens for me and I just witness happening it astonishingly. 

On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

you don't need to live under assumptions, and fantasies.

Do you want to get out of assumptions and fantasies? Do you want to witness the truth you are denying on this thread? 

On 11/28/2021 at 9:19 AM, Zaidism said:

Go to page 58 of the book for a breakdown of this Hadith, it is a big thorn, and the only way you can save yourself from it is by claiming Imam Zayd has nothing to do with the Imamiyah.

We have alread discussed books, reason & logic, we have already 4 debate threads,

This time I have a new menu for you. Lets just witness the truth which you are trying desperately to refute. Are you ready?

@Zaidism

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Whatever you are quoting, quoting out of ignorance about them. Neither Hisham nor Qummi were deviated from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

Character assassination is a different thing.

I am afraid you're speaking out of ignorance, or Shareef al-Murtadha is the one committing the character assassination? Shall we add him to those who you would like to throw under the bus alongside Sheikh 'Asif Muhsini, and Sheikh Muhammad Baqir Bahbahudi?

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/21_رسائل-المرتضى-الشريف-المرتضى-ج-٣/الصفحة_0?pageno=310#top

فإن معظم الفقه وجمهوره بل جميعه لا يخلو مستنده ممن يذهب مذهب الواقفة، إما أن يكون أصلا في الخبر أو فرعا "، راويا " عن غيره ومرويا " عنه
وإلى غلاة، وخطابية، ومخمسة، وأصحاب حلول، كفلان وفلان ومن لا يحصى أيضا " كثرة. وإلى قمي مشبه مجبر. وأن القميين كلهم من غير استثناء لأحد منهم إلا أبا جعفر بن بابويه (رحمة الله عليه) بالأمس كانوا مشبهة مجبرة، وكتبهم وتصانيفهم تشهد بذلك وتنطق به.
فليت شعري أي رواية تخلص وتسلم من أن يكون في أصلها وفرعها واقف أو غال، أو قمي مشبه مجبر، والاختبار بيننا وبينهم التفتيش. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

I just simply know the "right path" you can consider it علم الحضوري. I have witnessed it , I have attested it and I am on it till my last breath. 

In other words, you can't really respond to these critical points I am making, so like Christians, Jews, Atheists, and others you want to backup into your safe space, that is completely fine, I would appreciate it if you could keep what's inexplicable in your heart, and allow someone else to entertain a discussion that will lead somewhere. 

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10 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

keyboard-happy friend

Did I hurt your feelings?

10 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

we are not takfiris, and your attempts to prove otherwise are frankly tiring.

Sayyid Khoei
قوله: ثم ان ظاهر الاخبار اختصاص حرمة الغيبة بالمؤمن. أقول: المراد من المؤمن هنا من آمن بالله وبرسوله وبالمعاد وبالائمة لاثنى عشر (عليهم السلام)، اولهم علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام) وآخرهم القائم الحجة المنتظر عجل الله فرجه وجعلنا من أعوانه وأنصاره، ومن أنكر واحدا منهم جازت غيبته لوجوه: 1 - انه ثبت في الروايات [1] والادعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين، ووجوب البراءة منهم، واكثار السب عليهم واتهامهم، والوقيعة فيهم اي غيبتهم، لانهم من اهل البدع والريب [2]. بل لا شبهة في كفرهم، لان انكار الولاية والائمة (عليهم السلام) حتى الواحد منهم والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة، وتدل عليه الاخبار المتواترة [3] الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات. ويدل عليه ايضا قوله (عليه السلام) في الزيارة الجامعة: ومن جحدكم كافر، وقوله (عليه السلام) فيها ايضا: ومن وحده قبل عنكم،
His saying: (It's evident from the reports the the impermissibility of gheebah (backbitting and slandering) of a believer (mu'min) especially).I say: The meaning of mu'min is a person who believes in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Prophet (SWAS) in the day of resurrection and the twelve Imams (عليه السلام) among them the first is Imam `Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and the last is Al Qaim ,The Proof of Allah, The Awaited One (`AJF).May Allah hasten his re-appearance and may we be counted among his assistants and supporters.One who denies any one of them their gheebah is permissible due to the following reasons:

First Reason: It's proven by narrations [1] ,supplications and ziyarat the permissibility to curse (do l'anah) the mukhalifeen and the obligation to practice dissociation from them and to increase doing sabb (insult and abuse) on them accusing and confronting them: that is backbiting for they are people of suspicion and innovation [2].

There's no doubt in their Disbelief (kufr), those who deny the Wilayah of Aimma (عليه السلام) even if of one among them and believe in the caliphate of others having mythical beliefs like al Jabr (Predestination) necessitates their disbelief and infidelity and this is proven by clear mutawatir (mass-narrated) reports [3] on the disbelief of the rejectors of wilayah and those who believe in others similar deviations mentioned before. Similarly the words of Imam (عليه السلام) in Ziyarat al Jami`a too bear evidence in this respect
"One who rejects you ((عليه السلام).) is an Infidel" and "Whoso professes the Unity of God in fact takes after you ((عليه السلام).)."
Footnotes-
[1] Refer Al Kafi Vol #2 Pg #228 , Al Ma7asin Pg #208 Mira2tul 3Uqool Vol #1 Pg #38
[2] Al Kafi Vol #2 Pg #268
[3] Wasael Al Shi`a Vol #28 chapters of capital punishment of a murtadd Ch#10

Source: Misbah ul Faqaha fee alMu`amlaat Vol #1 Pg #504 
http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/10155/1/504

وفي جملة من الروايات: الناصب لنا اهل البيت شر من اليهود والنصارى وأهون من الكلب، وانه تعالى لم يخلق خلقا أنجس من الكلب وان الناصب لنا اهل البيت لانجس منه [1]. ومن البديهي ان جواز غيبتهم أهون من الامور المذكورة، بل قد عرفت جواز الوقيعة في اهل البدع والضلال، والوقيعة هي الغيبة. نعم قد ثبت حكم الاسلام على بعضهم في بعض الاحكام فقط تسهيلا للامر وحقنا للدماء. 2 - ان المخالفين بأجمعهم متجاهرون بالفسق، لبطلان عملهم رأسا كما في الروايات المتظافرة [2]، بل التزموا بما هو اعظم من الفسق كما عرفت، وسيجئ ان المتجاهر بالفسق تجوز غيبته.3 - ان المستفاد من الاية والروايات هو تحريم غيبة الاخ المؤمن، ومن البديهي انه لا اخوة ولا عصمة بيننا وبين المخالفين، وهذا هو المراد ايضا من مطلقات اخبار الغيبة 
Overall in the traditions (it's stated): *The one who bears enmity (Al Nasib) to us the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is more evil than the Jew(s) and the Christian(s), and more worthless than dog , and Allah the Almighty does not create a creation more impure than dog and Al Nasib is more impure than (a dog)*

[1].And from the obvious matters is the lawfulness of backbiting them , rather it has indeed came into knowledge the lawfulness of conflicting with the people of innovation and deviance, and the conflict namely is gheebah (backbiting). *Yes, it's established only some of the islamic law(s) are executed on some of them facilitating the affair (concerning mukhalifeen) and our entitlement to (their) blood*.
 
Second point: The mukhalifeen all of them are openly wicked, for the nullification of their deed(s) from the beginning as (mentioned) in the affirmative traditions [2], rather (the traditions) inflict them with what is the most gravest sin (ie. Shirk due to them rejecting Imamate) as it has came into knowledge, and it shall convey unto - for the openly wicked backbiting him is lawful.

Third point: It's derived from quranic verses and narrations (ahadith) the impermissibility of gheebah of a believing brother (ie. a shi`a) and it is from obvious matters there is neither a brotherhood nor prevention between us (the shia) and the mukhalfeen and this is also the general meaning of traditions regarding gheebah.

Footnotes- [1] Al Kafi Vol #6 Pg #503 , Wasail Al Shi`a Vol #6 Pg #219
[2] Wasail Al Shi`a Vol #1 Ch#29 nullification of worship without the wilayah of the Aimma [(عليه السلام)]

Source: Misbah ul Faqaha fee alMu`amlaat Vol #1 Pg #505


http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/10155/1/505

@Sabrejet @Cool Sayyid Khoei will go under the buss as well?

 

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On 11/27/2021 at 11:11 PM, Zaidism said:

We believe that the religion was complete after the Prophet, which means we don't believe in Nass after the Prophet.

I again quote my words and stood fast on them in the light of the principles defined in verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

The religion is based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet instead of cherry picking some people and regard them as imams, 12vers have well defined principle in the light of verses of quran and the names of 12 imams mentioned by the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  which certainly refutes the other sects. The evidence also comes from Zadiya that share the same first 3 Imams as those of 12vers including Imam Ali , Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

There is no verse in quran that  people can choose or select or even give a so called bayah to a (false) imam.

There is no hadith referring your any of a single imam as selected or appointed by the prophet, (except first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam Hasaan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that you share in belief with 12 vers).

Then your all concepts of false immamat have already been refuted likewise they have been refuted  already in 5 threads.

I do have right to reject and refute all your false claims about the false imammat of Zayd bin Ali and more than 140 (false) imams after him, as they were chosen like Abu bakr, and the people gave bayah to them,  people chose Umar and people gave bayah to him in similar manner as followed by Zaydis and the people chose Usman as caliph / leader and people gave bayah to him in a exactly the similar manner like that Zaydi took their imams including Zayd bin Ali and those after him.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

am afraid you're speaking out of ignorance, or Shareef al-Murtadha is the one committing the character assassination?

This has further confirmed my view that whatever you are quoting, quoting out of ignorance or either you have personal issues with the Younus bin Abd alRehman alQummi. 

Here are few more views of heavy weights and their views are also supported by many narrations from Imam al-Rida (عليه السلام):

قال الشيخ الطوسي (رحمه الله) في الفِهرست: مولى آل يقطين له كتب كثيرة أكثر من ثلاثين كتابا، و قيل إنها مثل كتب الحسين بن سعيد و زيادة. (إلى أن قال): وقال أبو جعفر بن بابويه سمعت ابن الوليد رحمه الله يقول كتب يونس بن عبد الرحمن التي هي بالروايات كلها صحيحة يعتمد عليها إلا ما ينفرد به محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد عن يونس و لم يروه غيره فإنه لا يتعمد عليه و لا يفتي به.

 https://lib.eshia.ir/14010/1/266/يونس

وعدّه الشيخ الطوسي (رحمه الله) في رجاله: تارة من أصحاب الإمام الكاظم (عليه السلام) بقوله: يونس بن عبد الرحمان، مولى علي بن يقطين، ضعفه القميون، وهو ثقة

https://lib.eshia.ir/12146/1/346/يقطين

وأخرى من أصحاب الرضا (عليه السلام) بقوله: يونس بن عبد الرحمان، من أصحاب أبي الحسن موسى (عليه السلام)، مولى علي بن يقطين، طعن عليه القميون، وهو عندي ثقة

https://lib.eshia.ir/12146/1/368/يقطين

وقال النجاشي (رحمه الله) خرّيت صناعة علم الرجال: يونس بن عبد الرحمن مولى علي بن يقطين بن موسى، مولى بني أسد، أبو محمد، كان وجها في أصحابنا، متقدما، عظيم المنزلة، ولد في أيام هشام بن عبد الملك، ورأى جعفر بن محمد (عليهما السلام) بين الصفا والمروة ولم يروِ عنه. وروى عن أبي الحسن موسى والرضا (عليهما السلام) وكان الرضا (عليه السلام) يشير إليه في العلم والفتيا. وكان ممن بُذِلَ له على الوقف مالٌ جزيل وامتنع (فامتنع) من أَخذه وثبت على الحق. وقد ورد في يونس بن عبد الرحمن رحمه الله مدح وذم.

https://lib.eshia.ir/14028/1/447/تصانيف

 

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Let's see what Imam Ali thinks of occult leaders/Imams :book:

Then, do not keep yourself secluded from the people for a long time, because the seclusion of those in authority from the subjects is a kind of narrow-sightedness and causes ignorance about their affairs. Seclusion from them also prevents them from the knowledge of those things which they do not know and as a result they begin to regard big matters as small and small matters as big, good matters as bad and bad matters as good, while the truth becomes confused with falsehood. After all, a governor is a human being and cannot have knowledge of things which people keep hidden from him.

وَأَمَّا بَعْدَ هذا، فَلاَ تُطَوِّلَنَّ احْتِجَابَكَ عَنْ رَعِيَّتِكَ، فَإِنَّ احْتِجَابَ الْوُلاَةِ عَنِ الرَّعِيَّةِ شُعْبَةٌ مِنَ الضِّيقِ، وَقِلَّةُ عِلْم بِالاْمُورِ، وَالاْحْتِجَابُ مِنْهُمْ يَقْطَعُ عَنْهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا احْتَجَبُوا دوُنَهُ فَيَصْغُرُ عِندَهُمْ الْكَبِيرُ، وَيَعْظَمُ الصَّغِيرُ، وَيَقْبُحُ الْحَسَنُ، وَيَحْسُنُ الْقَبِيحُ، وَيُشَابُ الْحَقُّ بِالْبَاطِلِ، وَإِنَّمَا الْوَالِي بَشَرٌ لاَ يَعْرِفُ مَا تَوَارَى عَنْهُ النَّاسُ بِهِ مِنَ الاْمُورِ،

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

This has further confirmed my view that whatever you are quoting, quoting out of ignorance or either you have personal issues with the Younus bin Abd alRehman alQummi. 

Here are few more views of heavy weights and their views are also supported by many narrations from Imam al-Rida (عليه السلام):

قال الشيخ الطوسي (رحمه الله) في الفِهرست: مولى آل يقطين له كتب كثيرة أكثر من ثلاثين كتابا، و قيل إنها مثل كتب الحسين بن سعيد و زيادة. (إلى أن قال): وقال أبو جعفر بن بابويه سمعت ابن الوليد رحمه الله يقول كتب يونس بن عبد الرحمن التي هي بالروايات كلها صحيحة يعتمد عليها إلا ما ينفرد به محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد عن يونس و لم يروه غيره فإنه لا يتعمد عليه و لا يفتي به.

 https://lib.eshia.ir/14010/1/266/يونس

وعدّه الشيخ الطوسي (رحمه الله) في رجاله: تارة من أصحاب الإمام الكاظم (عليه السلام) بقوله: يونس بن عبد الرحمان، مولى علي بن يقطين، ضعفه القميون، وهو ثقة

https://lib.eshia.ir/12146/1/346/يقطين

وأخرى من أصحاب الرضا (عليه السلام) بقوله: يونس بن عبد الرحمان، من أصحاب أبي الحسن موسى (عليه السلام)، مولى علي بن يقطين، طعن عليه القميون، وهو عندي ثقة

https://lib.eshia.ir/12146/1/368/يقطين

وقال النجاشي (رحمه الله) خرّيت صناعة علم الرجال: يونس بن عبد الرحمن مولى علي بن يقطين بن موسى، مولى بني أسد، أبو محمد، كان وجها في أصحابنا، متقدما، عظيم المنزلة، ولد في أيام هشام بن عبد الملك، ورأى جعفر بن محمد (عليهما السلام) بين الصفا والمروة ولم يروِ عنه. وروى عن أبي الحسن موسى والرضا (عليهما السلام) وكان الرضا (عليه السلام) يشير إليه في العلم والفتيا. وكان ممن بُذِلَ له على الوقف مالٌ جزيل وامتنع (فامتنع) من أَخذه وثبت على الحق. وقد ورد في يونس بن عبد الرحمن رحمه الله مدح وذم.

https://lib.eshia.ir/14028/1/447/تصانيف

 

What does this have to do with Qomi scholars and their belief in Tajsim, and Jabr?

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

يونس بن عبد الرحمان

Yunus b. 'Abdulrahman wasn't brought up in this thread

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

In other words, you can't really respond to these critical points I am making,

I don't want to respond you in your style. I already offered you that best I could do for you but it seems you are not interested in witnessing the truth. So keep shouting, I don't consider every shout, a shout against me. 

 

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12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Let's see what Imam Ali thinks of occult leaders/Imams :book:

Then, do not keep yourself secluded from the people for a long time, because the seclusion of those in authority from the subjects is a kind of narrow-sightedness and causes ignorance about their affairs. Seclusion from them also prevents them from the knowledge of those things which they do not know and as a result they begin to regard big matters as small and small matters as big, good matters as bad and bad matters as good, while the truth becomes confused with falsehood. After all, a governor is a human being and cannot have knowledge of things which people keep hidden from him.

وَأَمَّا بَعْدَ هذا، فَلاَ تُطَوِّلَنَّ احْتِجَابَكَ عَنْ رَعِيَّتِكَ، فَإِنَّ احْتِجَابَ الْوُلاَةِ عَنِ الرَّعِيَّةِ شُعْبَةٌ مِنَ الضِّيقِ، وَقِلَّةُ عِلْم بِالاْمُورِ، وَالاْحْتِجَابُ مِنْهُمْ يَقْطَعُ عَنْهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا احْتَجَبُوا دوُنَهُ فَيَصْغُرُ عِندَهُمْ الْكَبِيرُ، وَيَعْظَمُ الصَّغِيرُ، وَيَقْبُحُ الْحَسَنُ، وَيَحْسُنُ الْقَبِيحُ، وَيُشَابُ الْحَقُّ بِالْبَاطِلِ، وَإِنَّمَا الْوَالِي بَشَرٌ لاَ يَعْرِفُ مَا تَوَارَى عَنْهُ النَّاسُ بِهِ مِنَ الاْمُورِ،

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

 

Salam it's not a refutation  of occultation of Imams especially  12th Imam because none of them have secluded from the people but on the other hand from begining of Abbasid  era , Abbasid  kings have tried to force them to seclution by keeping them in prisons for long times or  under heavy watch in military garrisons even in their palace in case of Imam Reza (عليه السلام) which by forming network of Wikalah (appointed deputies  by infallible  Imams) their wicked plan has been failed by Wikalah network which Imam Mahdi(aj) has had 4 wellknown  Wakil which then great Shia scholars likewise Sheikh Mufid (رضي الله عنه)  then Marjas at our time would be his deputies until his reappearance  according to strong & well documented  narrations  from him which has been recorded by his 4 Wakil in time of minor occultation  bnevertheless I have known  that you will deny it but I have stated it for record.

15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

فإن معظم الفقه وجمهوره بل جميعه لا يخلو مستنده ممن يذهب مذهب الواقفة، إما أن يكون أصلا في الخبر أو فرعا "، راويا " عن غيره ومرويا " عنه
وإلى غلاة، وخطابية، ومخمسة، وأصحاب حلول، كفلان وفلان ومن لا يحصى أيضا " كثرة. وإلى قمي مشبه مجبر. وأن القميين كلهم من غير استثناء لأحد منهم إلا أبا جعفر بن بابويه (رحمة الله عليه) بالأمس كانوا مشبهة مجبرة، وكتبهم وتصانيفهم تشهد بذلك وتنطق به.
فليت شعري أي رواية تخلص وتسلم من أن يكون في أصلها وفرعها واقف أو غال، أو قمي مشبه مجبر، والاختبار بيننا وبينهم التفتيش. 

This is about procedure of not accepting  of single narration (Khabar Wahid) between majority of Shia scholars which as usual you have tried to misinterpret it just because  of your usual   stubbornness  & rejection  of facts  which as usual you have censored start of conversation " القمیون بأجمعهم ما بین مجبّرة و مشبّهة و... " for your mistranslation in similar fashion of wahabists  procedure which by unfair translation  & mistranlastion have tried to fool others but they just have fooled themselves .

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1. Seyyed Morteza did not write 2-3 lines more about the conflict between of two news and said: The companions have disagreed about the conflict between the two news, but since the news is not proof, this discussion does not make sense to us. Gentlemen who are now looking for trust also have said: We have no conflict. Whatever the companions have done, we will do. The Qomites were based on news and the Baghdadis (likewise Sayyid Morteza) on acceptance toward truth, and the Sheikh gathered between the two to be both news and perception - and therefore says: Our reason is the consensus of the sect and the news دلیلنا إجماع الفرقة وأخبارهم ـ-, and at least the same basis was established between the Shiites and Became (authority of) the news that the companions acted on.
2. Seyyed Morteza does not believe in the authority of news at all and mentions the Qomites with the title that 

 

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القمیون بأجمعهم ما بین مجبّرة و مشبّهة و... (فإن معظم الفقه وجمهوره ـ بل جميعه ـ لا يخلو مستنده ممن يذهب مذهب الواقفة، إما أن يكون أصلا في الخبر أو فرعا، راويا عن غيره ومرويا عنه، وإلى غلاة، وخطابية، ومخمسة، وأصحاب حلول ـ كفلان وفلان ـ ومن لا يحصى أيضا كثرة، وإلى قمي مشبه مجبر. وأن القميين كلهم من غير استثناء لأحد منهم إلا أبا جعفر بن بابويه ـ رحمة الله عليه ـ بالأمس كانوا مشبهة مجبرة، وكتبهم وتصانيفهم تشهد بذلك وتنطق به [رسائل الشريف المرتضى، ج 3، ص 309 ـ 310])

 

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Which, in fairness, is a very bad and false statement, and it is also untrue. We have great people like Ahmad al-Ash'ari, Ibn al-Waleed, and Muhammad ibn Yahya in Qom, who are arithmetic greats, and some of them are superior to the late Saduq in jurisprudence and knowledge of hadith, and have nothing to do with compulsionerists  مجبّره , similarity مشبّهه, and so on. Yes, in fairness, this is what Ibn al-Waleed said  Despite his superiority, it is not correct.

«أوّل درجات الغلوّ نفي السهو عن النبيّ والأئمه (ع)» (وكان شيخنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد (ره) يقول: أول درجة في الغلو نفي السهو عن النبي (ص) [من لا يحضره الفقيه، ج 1، ص 360، ذیل ح 1031])

 

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3. The reason for this stance of Seyyed Morteza is that he, like the Mu'tazilites and the school of rationalism, believed that single news is not the proof and that devotion to the news is not possible at all. On the other hand, some of Hashwiyah and others believed that the news are true God's ruling . In fairness, both votes are invalid. Hazrat Ayatollah Ustad Haj Seyyed Ahmad Madadi Al-Musawi, out of jurisprudence 10/3/1397  2018-05-31

http://dorous.ir/persian/article/13135/

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

What does this have to do with Qomi scholars and their belief in Tajsim, and Jabr?

This is just your batalant  lying due to your stubbornness  & your hate from Shia scholars because clearly all Shia scholars especially  Qomi Scholars have been against these two blasphey.

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On 11/30/2021 at 1:53 AM, Cool said:

You have divided the Imamate by coining different terminologies like "Imams of knowledge", So you are free from obeying the Imams of knowledge? Or you think Imams of knowledge should follow the ignorant?

Let me point out the confusion which has encircled the Zaidiyyah creed from the very beginning. 

1st: The hadith al-Thaqalayn refers refers to the issue of knowledge, not the sword, and this is one of the most important clues that help to distinguish the progeny. So we have the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) where he said ولا تعلموهم فإنهم اعلم منكم (Do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you).  In embarrassment, but the hadith mentioned knowledge only.

So if there is an Imam of knowledge and yet there appear a person with sword, calling towards himself, start revolting against oppressors, the person with the sword becomes the Imam for Zaidiyyah and as per them his obedience is obligatory. 

Lets apply the rule set by Zaidiyyah on Imam Ali (عليه السلام), he never draw sword and never revolt against oppressors. Lets apply this rule to the life of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), he made peace treaty instead of fighting with the oppressor, the rebel, the biggest hypocrite, Muawiyyah (L).  So the rule coined by Zaidiyyah is alien to the sunnah of 1st as well as 2nd Imam.  

Coming back to my point, If the imam was the one who came out with the sword, the hadith of the two weighty things or other ahadith would refer to this presumption, so that people would not fall into embarrassment, but the hadith mentioned knowledge only, so the question and the test was one of the means for some of the owners of the twelve imams to know the false imams. 

 روى إمام الزيدية عبدالله بن حمزة الملقب المنصور بالله ( ت 614هـ) ما يؤكد صحة هذا اللفظ، قال : (… عن عطية، عن أبي سعيد، قال: قال النبي صَلَّى الله عَلَيْهِ وآله وَسَلَّم: ((لا تعلّموا أهل بيتي فهم أعلم منكم، ولا تشتموهم فتضلوا)
الشافي، ج1 ص154 ، والحديث مروي في الأمالي الخميسية للشجري، الحديث السادس، ص 156

ثم يؤكد عالم الزيدية مجد الدين المؤيدي صحة هذا اللفظ بعد أن ذهب لتواتر حديث الثقلين، قال : ( وفيه: لا تقدموهما فتهلكوا، ولا تقصروا عنهما فتهلكوا، ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم )
لوامع الأنوار ج1 ص 50

It is well known fact that the imams of the Zaydiyyah have gained knowledge from the Mu’tazila men and their theologians and some of the Imamis and the Hanafis, while the wording of the hadith of the Thaqalayn states that the imams of the family who do not part with the Qur’an are more knowledgeable than others, and the Prophet forbade others from teaching them by saying: (Do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.)

And there are consistent reports present in historical records which further confirms the stance of 12ers:

في حوار بين يحيى بن زيد ع ومتوكل بن هارون، يسأل الأخير يحيى : ( يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّه أَهُمْ ـــ جعفر وابيه ع ـــ أَعْلَمُ أَمْ أَنْتُمْ فَأَطْرَقَ إِلَى الأَرْضِ مَلِيّاً ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَه وقَالَ : كُلُّنَا لَه عِلْمٌ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ كُلَّ مَا نَعْلَمُ ، ولا نَعْلَمُ كُلَّ مَا يَعْلَمُونَ )

So here Yahya bin Zayd (رضي الله عنه) saying "We all have knowledge except that they know all that we know, and we do not know all that they know."

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@Cool This is a thread about the occultation, you are free to make a separate one about Zaydi Imamah, and I will gladly discuss it with you InshaAllah.

Just to quickly address your points:

A- Imam Ali had Nass from Allah, and His Messenger

B - An Imam is someone who either rises with the sword, so as to enjoin good and forbid evil, and eventually establish the Hudud. For example, sayyid Khomeini rose with the sword, and sayyid khamenei did not rise with the sword, but he was the Imam after him in leading the Muslims. Likewise, the case of Imam Ridha who we believe is a Zaydi Imam, but rose to proclaim his Imamah openly (not conceal it from relatives, sons, and general Muslims).

C - You mention that Zaydi Imams have been influenced by Mu'tazilah, believe me you don't want to go that route, because you don't have evidence for this. Whereas, I can show you how Mu'tazilah who Sheikh Mufid (modern-day Twelvers follow his interpretation of twelverism) studied under would blatantly accuse him of stealing from them and using their school to build his 'Aqeedah, can you do the same? 

I want you to say that there is no evidence for Sheikh Mufid being accused by Mu'tazilah to take from their school to build mainstream Twelverism, in the same way you denied Qomi scholars believing in Jabr, and Tajsim, and then when proven wrong you simply brush it under the rug and bring up some point about Yunus b. 'AbdulRahman, who we can address as well if you would like, and his affiliation with the 'Abbasids. 

Believe me, any point you think you can make against the school of the Ahl al-Bayt (al-Zaidiyyah) will be returned back to you tenfold, this is the school of the progeny of the Prophet, which means it is the school which logically coherent, and textually consistent, whereas taking the lead of those who are other than the Ahl al-Bayt will cause someone to believe in things which are textually inconsistent, and logically incoherent. 

Edited by Zaidism
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2 hours ago, Cool said:

ا تعلّموا أهل بيتي فهم أعلم منكم، ولا تشتموهم فتضلوا)

This makes more sense in the Zaydi perspective, because the Zaydis follow the Ahl al-Bayt collectively, and we have points of consensus, such as Mut'ah being haram, however, you can't even agree on an epistemology to use in deriving knowledge from the Ahl al-Bayt, is it the Usuli, or Akhbari framework? Both lead to big differences, so which Ahl al-Bayt is the Prophet referring to if it isn't that which the Zaydis hold to, is it the Ahl al-Bayt of the Usulis, or Akhbaris?

2 hours ago, Cool said:

لا تقدموهما فتهلكوا، ولا تقصروا عنهما فتهلكوا، ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم

Same issue as above, as for Zaydis it can easily refer to the consensus of the Ahl al-Bayt

2 hours ago, Cool said:

كُلُّنَا لَه عِلْمٌ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ كُلَّ مَا نَعْلَمُ ، ولا نَعْلَمُ كُلَّ مَا يَعْلَمُونَ

I can say that I have a teacher who has knowledge, and I have knowledge, yet like Imam Yahya b. Zayd say that my teacher knows all that I know, why the persistent need to push for hyperbole, and is this how you tragically defend your belief in the occultation?

Moreover, that same source you're quoting from I believe mentions Imam Sadiq saying Imam Zayd is more knowledgeable than me

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52 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

An Imam is someone who either rises with the sword, so as to enjoin good and forbid evil, and eventually establish the Hudud

You have neither any nass for this from Quran nor you have anything from hadith. This is your own invention, a bid'a.

52 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

For example, sayyid Khomeini rose with the sword, and sayyid khamenei did not rise with the sword,

lol, We are talking about divine covenant. 

52 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You mention that Zaydi Imams have been influenced by Mu'tazilah, believe me you don't want to go that route, because you don't have evidence for this. Whereas, I can show you how Mu'tazilah who Sheikh Mufid (modern-day Twelvers follow his interpretation of twelverism) studied under would blatantly accuse him of stealing from them and using their school to build his 'Aqeedah, can you do the same? 

I can provide evidences for what has been said. The lack of knowledge of Zaidiyyah Imams is self evident for anyone who is familiar with history. 

By the way here is a different source for you:

قال ابن المرتضى ( ت 840هـ) : ( وروي أن واصلا دخل المدينة ، ونزل على إبراهيم بن يحيى ، فتسارع إليه زيد بن علي ، وابنه يحيى بن زيد ، وعبدالله بن الحسن واخوته ومحمد بن عجلان وابو عباد الليثي، فقال جعفر بن محمد الصادق لأصحابه : قوموا بنا إليه ، فجاءه ، والقوم عنده أعني زيد بن علي ، وأصحابه ، فقال جعفر : أما بعد ، فإن الله تعالى بعث محمدا بالحق ، والبينات ، والنذر ، والآيات ، وأنزل عليه : ( وأولو الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله) ، فنحن عترة رسول الله ، وأقرب الناس إليه ، وإنك يا واصل أتيت بأمر يفرق الكلمة ، وتطعن به على الأئمة ، وأنا أدعوكم إلى التوبة )

ومما قاله واصل في جواب الإمام حسب الرواية : ( وإنك يا جعفر وابن الأئمة شغلك حب الدنيا، فأصبحت بها كلفا، وما أتيناك إلا بدين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله … فتكلم زيد بن علي ، فأغلظ لجعفر ؛ أي أنكر عليه ما قال ، وقال : ما منعك من ” اتباعه ” إلا الحسد لنا، فتفرقوا ، قلت ــ أي ابن المرتضى ــ : روى ذلك الحاكم ، وغيره ، والله أعلم بصحتها)
طبقات المعتزلة، أحمد بن يحيى بن المرتضى، ص 33 ـــ 34،

وقد رواها الحاكم الجشمي كما في نقل ابن المرتضى ، فضل الإعتزال وطبقات المعتزلة، ص 239 .

We will look at the character الحاكم الجشمي الزيدي somewhere in future.

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53 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

in the same way you denied Qomi scholars believing in Jabr, and Tajsim, and then when proven wrong you simply brush it under the rug and bring up some point about Yunus b. 'AbdulRahman, who we can address as well if you would like, and his affiliation with the 'Abbasids. 

What is meant by tajseem? And jabr? Do you deny عين الله، يد الله، لسان الله، جنب الله etc?

Do you believe in absolute freedom? Do you think that you came in this world with your own will? And you will go from here with your own will? You breathing, blinking of eyes etc all happens with your will? Infact you too believe in jabr and you too believe in what God has mentioned as His يد، عين، وجه، لسان، جنب etc. 

The twelver stance is quite clear about the jabr and jism. From Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to the Imam of our time (ajtf), there is a very clear stance. So any Allamah e Dahar become mujabbirah or start believing in tajseem, he simply gets out from the folds of twelver shias. And that happens with the sect famous as Younusiyyah. 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Believe me, any point you think you can make against the school of the Ahl al-Bayt (al-Zaidiyyah) will be returned back to you tenfold

At the moment, your refutations returning back to you tenfold. How can you refute a thing while your concept of Imamate is corrupt. You have no idea of what Imamate is, you have no idea of divine covenant mentioned in 2:124 لا ينال عهدي الظالمين

And your claim i.e., zaidiyyah is the school of Ahlul Bayt, is a self evident lie. A false claim which I am refuting by means of hadith e thaqalayn as well as Quran. 

On the other hand, you are refuting a Quranic concept of occultation. So by rejecting the occultation of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام), you are also rejecting the occultation of Prophet Idris (عليه السلام), Prophet Isa bin Maryam (عليه السلام), Khidr (عليه السلام) etc... and you, out of your ignorance, denying many verses of Quran as well as concepts. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

This makes more sense in the Zaydi perspective, because the Zaydis follow the Ahl al-Bayt collectively, and we have points of consensus,

lol, collectively!!! 

 

You have a clear command to not follow sinners, liars, ghafileen, musrifeen, munafiqeen, the ones who follow their low desires, kafireen etc. You are required to follow the ones who are infallible (i.e., the ones who never separated from Quran). This clause alone (i.e., not separating from Quran) would demand the infallible entities,  

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

can say that I have a teacher who has knowledge, and I have knowledge, yet like Imam Yahya b. Zayd say that my teacher knows all that I know

This confirms what was narrated by the Imamis of Zayd's saying: Jafar (عليه السلام) informed us of what is permissible and what is forbidden. جعفر ع أعلمنا بالحلال والحرام.

How can Zaid be the imam of his time and the proof of God on his land, and so is Yahya after him, and there are those who are more knowledgeable than them?

ملاحظة : إن رواية الجشمي التي نقلها ابن المرتضى وغيره، تبين أخذ زيد عن واصل وانكار جعفر الصادق ع تلك العقائد التي روج لها ، ودعوته واصل للتوبة، جاء في الرواية: ( فتكلم زيد بن علي ، فأغلظ لجعفر ؛ أي أنكر عليه ما قال ، وقال : ما منعك من ” اتباعه ” إلا الحسد)

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15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Qomi scholars believing in Jabr, and Tajsim,

Salam cleaarly Qomi scholars have not belived to these blasphemous idea which your baseless accusation hass driven from  a report about their way of interaction with narations as Akhbaris which has no relation to their belive to Tawhid which as always you have tried to accuse shia scholars likewise Sheikh Mufid(رضي الله عنه) & now Qomi scholars to by your baseless claims.

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On 12/1/2021 at 9:29 AM, Cool said:

والله أعلم بصحتها

Baseless report

On 12/1/2021 at 10:23 AM, Cool said:

You have a clear command to not follow sinners, liars, ghafileen, musrifeen, munafiqeen, the ones who follow their low desires, kafireen etc. You are required to follow the ones who are infallible (i.e., the ones who never separated from Quran). This clause alone (i.e., not separating from Quran) would demand the infallible entities,  

I agree we don't follow individuals with such descriptions.

In what way are you currently following the Mahdi? He does not lead, he does not guide, he does nothing, so essentially you are arguing that an infallible leader is better than a righteous fallible one who does not exceed the bounds, and commit major sins - I agree, but there is no such guide in the world, you follow fallible scholars, and this is a reality which you must accept, it is undeniable. 

On 12/1/2021 at 9:52 AM, Cool said:

What is meant by tajseem? And jabr? Do you deny عين الله، يد الله، لسان الله، جنب الله etc?

This is getting childish, with all due respect.

Tajsim is interpreting what you mentioned literally, how can one deny what you mentioned when it is in the Qur'an?

On 12/1/2021 at 9:52 AM, Cool said:

The twelver stance is quite clear about the jabr and jism. From Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to the Imam of our time (ajtf), there is a very clear stance. So any Allamah e Dahar become mujabbirah or start believing in tajseem, he simply gets out from the folds of twelver shias. And that happens with the sect famous as Younusiyyah. 

This is a problem you must face, ask yourself where the guidance of the Mahdi was towards those Qomi scholars, and their corrupt beliefs, and why the third representative of the Imam did not rebuke them, but instead sought theology advice from them? 

On 12/1/2021 at 9:52 AM, Cool said:

لا ينال عهدي الظالمين

Is Abu al-Fadhl al-'Abbas ((عليه السلام)) a ظالم? If not, then don't try to twist the meanings of the Qur'an, and say it is pointing towards infallible leaders.

On 12/1/2021 at 9:52 AM, Cool said:

And your claim i.e., zaidiyyah is the school of Ahlul Bayt, is a self evident lie. A false claim which I am refuting by means of hadith e thaqalayn as well as Quran. 

Who are the Ahl al-Bayt, are they not the progeny of the Prophet, why is it that not a single member of the Ahl al-Bayt was an Imami for the first 200-250 years?

Why are the sons of your Imams Zaydis?

Why are all your Hadith books written by members who aren't from the Ahl al-Bayt?

Why do you accept narrations from those who aren't from the family of your Imams, whereas we take narrations from those who lived, and were raised by the Imams like Imam al-Hussein b. Zayd who was raised by Imam Sadiq, and was a Zaydi, as well as Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq; why couldn't Imam Sadiq raise his three sons, and al-Hussein b. Zayd to be Twelvers? Unless, Imam Sadiq never taught that, and when he cursed Zurarah, Hisham b. al-Hakm, Shaytan al-Taq, and called them liars, maybe just maybe it wasn't Taqiyyah, have you ever thought of that possibility with those Qara'in in mind? 

After all, there were dozens of sects before who attributed things to other members of the Ahl al-Bayt, this sect just so happened to gain governmental support from the Abbasids who were shaking from the brave Zaydis, they needed to promote a sect that supports political quietism, what better sect than one which claims to have a hidden Imam? 

On 12/1/2021 at 9:52 AM, Cool said:

you are also rejecting the occultation of Prophet Idris (عليه السلام), Prophet Isa bin Maryam (عليه السلام), Khidr (عليه السلام) etc... and you, out of your ignorance, denying many verses of Quran as well as concepts. 

When these Prophets, and righteous individuals went away from the people, did Allah obligate their communities to follow their teachings? No, He did not, because that would be unjust, so why are you saying we are obligated to follow an Imam who has done nothing in relation to the role of Imamah, which has done none of the following:

A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram

B - Establish the Hudud 

C - Lead the Muslims in Prayer

D - Gather the alms-tax 

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9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

agree we don't follow individuals with such descriptions.

In what way are you currently following the Mahdi?

We are not "following" him in the sense "following" someone is used. We are rather "waiting" for his appearance so that we can follow & obey him. 

What we are doing is obeying his commands which reached to us:

وأما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا فيها إلى رواة حديثنا فإنهم حجتي عليكم وأنا حجة الله.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1338_الاحتجاج-ج-٢/الصفحة_0?pageno=283

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

He does not lead, he does not guide, he does nothing, so essentially you are arguing that an infallible leader is better than a righteous fallible one who does not exceed the bounds, and commit major sins - I agree, but there is no such guide in the world, you follow fallible scholars, and this is a reality which you must accept, it is undeniable. 

The world cease to exist if there is not such guide which is the misdaq of امان لأهل الارض as stated in ahadith:

 النجوم أمان لأهل السماء، إذا ذهبت النجوم ذهب أهل السماء ، وأهل بيتي أمان لأهل الأرض فإذا ذهب أهل بيتي ذهب أهل الأرض

النجوم أمان لأهل السماء وأهل بيتي أمان لأمتي

So there is infact the hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and our presence itself is evidence of his existence. 

In this hadith too, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) which are the misdaq of امان, are the infallible Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

how can one deny what you mentioned when it is in the Qur'an?

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is sitting at throne?

اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ means what according to Zaidiyyah?

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

ask yourself where the guidance of the Mahdi was towards those Qomi scholars

I think this is getting childish!!! 

Why you are demanding guidance of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام).in the times of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) or Imam al-Kazim (عليه السلام)? 

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Is Abu al-Fadhl al-'Abbas ((عليه السلام)) a ظالم?

Do you think Abu al-Fadhl al-Abbas (عليه السلام) superior or equal to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?

Do you consider him as your Imam?

This way simply leads you to your another corrupt understanding where you consider every syed as your leader or Imam.

How many Prophets said that the are Zalim!!! 

ربنا ظلمنا انفسنا (Adam (عليه السلام))

اني كنت من الظالمين (Younus (عليه السلام))

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned Imamate, He clearly said:

لا ينال عهدي الظالمين

The bearer of divine covenant is a perfect human being, you cannot view him doing ترك الاولى. So understand the difference please!

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Who are the Ahl al-Bayt, are they not the progeny of the Prophet, why is it that not a single member of the Ahl al-Bayt was an Imami for the first 200-250 years?

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was Imami. He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) introduced Imam al-Mehdi (عليه السلام). Let aside any of other figure for a while.

He mentioned us the figure of twelve. So you have no way out. Submit yourself to the truth.

So I am from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), that makes me Imam?

فما لكم كيف تحكمون 

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Why are the sons of your Imams Zaydis?

Why are the Sons of Imams Ismail's? Why Waqifi's etc....? And why so many Syeds become atheists? Why so many Syed doing zina? Involving in haram acts? Doing i justice to themselves and to others? 

After realizing all this, ask yourself "Who are Ahlul Bayt?" 

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

When these Prophets, and righteous individuals went away from the people, did Allah obligate their communities to follow their teachings? No, He did not, because that would be unjust, so why are you saying we are obligated to follow an Imam who has done nothing in relation to the role of Imamah,

إنّ خليفة الله أو الإمام واسطة الفيض, فإذا انقطعت الواسطة، ذهب العالم، وإذا ذهب من الأرض زالت الأرض

You learn the very first role of Imam. 

There is a whole chapter in Al-Kafi أن الأرض لا تخلو من حجة , better read that:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_226

Then learn the second role:

إنّ الله لم يدع الأرض بغير عالم, ولولا ذلك لم يعرف الحقّ من الباطل

 روي عن  الامام عليّ(عليه السلام)، قال: (لا تخلو الأرض من قائم لله بحجّة، إمّا ظاهراً مشهوراً, أو خائفاً مغموراً, لئلا تبطل حجج الله وبيّناته

 

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

 

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Second Evidence: 

(Knowledge & death by sword or by poison)

"By God, my nation will kill them, but God, the Mighty and Sublime, will not grant them my intercession"

Lets see this hadith:

وقال صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فيما رواه الإمام المنصور بالله عليه السلام: ((من سره أن يحيا حياتي، ويموت ميتتي، ويدخل جنة عدن التي غرسها ربي بيده، فليتول علي بن أبي طالب، وأوصياءه فهم الأولياء والأئمة من بعدي، أعطاهم الله علمي وفهمي، وهم عترتي من لحمي ودمي، إلى الله أشكو من ظالمهم من أمتي، والله لتقتلنهم أمتي لا أنالهم الله عز وجل شفاعتي)).

https://alzzaidi.wordpress.com/2017/01/16/أخبار-في-فضائل-العترة-ووجوب-التمسك-بهم/

This hadith infact mentioning the عترة، the true Imams of Ahlul Bayt who are the bearers of knowledge of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and will be killed by sword or by poison. Lets see the Imams of Zaidiyyah, their cause of death as recorded in their own history books:

ـــ القاسم بن إبراهيم الرسي ( ت 246ه)
بقي متخفيا مطارداـ لكنه استقر في الرس قرب ذي الحليفة، وبنى لنفسه ولولده ، ومات هناك وعمره سبع وسبعون سنة. انظر: الإفادة في تاريخ الأئمة السادة، يحيى بن الحسين الهاروني، ص86، التحف شرح الزلف، للمؤيدي، ص 141
لم يُقتل القاسم قتلا كما ذكرت الراوية عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم.

2ـــــ الحسن بن زيد بن محمد بن إسماعيل (ت 270هـ)
توفي في طبرستان، لم يقتله أحد .
انظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 154

3ـــــ الحسن بن علي الأطروش ( ت 304ه)
لم يذكر أحدٌ أنه مات قتلا في الحرب أو بالسم، قال يحيى الهاروني : ( وتوفي عليه السلام بأمل في شهر شعبان سنة أربع وثلاثمائة)
الإفادة، ص 113
وقال مجد الديين المؤيدي : ( وفاضت نفسه عليها السلام وهو ساجد )
التحف شرح الزالف، 178

4ـــ الإمام المرتضى محمد بن يحيى بن الحسين بن القاسم الرسي ( ت 310هـ)
قام بعد ابيه في اليمن، ومات حتف أنفه دون قتل. قال يحيى بن الحسين : ( وتوفي رضي الله عنه بصعدة حرسها الله …)
الإفادة، ص 115، الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص 96، التحف شرح الزلف، 182

5ــ الناصر لدين الله أحمد بن يحيى بن الحسين بن القاسم الرسي ( ت 315هـ)
مات ميتة طبيعية دون قتل أو سم .
انظر ترجمته في الإفادة، ص 117، الحدائق الوردية ج2 ص ، التحف شرح الزلف، ص 188

6ــ المنصور بالله يحيى بن أحمد بن يحيى الهادي إلى الحق ( ت 366هـ)
انظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 189

7ــــ الإمام الداعي يوسف الأكبر بن يحيى بن أحمد بن يحيى الهادي إلى الحق
انظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 191

8ــــ الإمام المنتصر بالله محمد بن القاسم بن الإمام الناصر للحق( 365ه)
انظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 193

9ـــــ المنصور بالله القاسم بن علي بن عبدالله ( ت 393هـ)
مات حتف أنفه، قال حميد المحلي : ( ثم كانت وفاته عليه السلام اول يوم الأحد…)
الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص ، وراجع : التحف شرح الزلف ، ص 194

10ـــــ الثائر في الله جعفر بن محمد بن الحسين وابناه التاليين.
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 202

11ــــ الإمام أبو الحسن المهدي بن أبي الفضل جعفر الثائر في الله
ذكر مجد الدين المؤيدي أن الله توفاه في شبابه دون أن يذكر سببا لموته ــــ كما هي عادته ــــ من قتل أو سم، كما هي عادته .
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 202

12ـــــ الثائر في الله أبو القاسم الحسين بن جعفر بن محمد
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 202

13ـــ المؤيد بالله أحمد بن الحسين بن هارون ( ت 411هـ)
عاش تسعا وسبعين سنة، ومات دون قتل.
انظر : الحدائق الوردية، حميد الملحي ج2 ص 161، التحف شرح الزلف، ص 203

14ــ الناطق بالحق يحيى بن الحسين بن هارون ( ت 424هـ)
قام بعد أخيه أحمد، لم 

يمسه قتل أو سمٌ، قال حميد المحلي : ( وأقام عليه السلام آمرا بالمعروف … حتى مضى إلى رضوان الله. وتوفي عليه السلام وهو ابن نيف وثمانين سنة، وكانت وفاته عليه السلام بالديلم سنة أربع وعشرين واربعمائة )
الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص 185 ـــ186، وانظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 207

15ــــ الإمام مانكديم أحمد بن الحسين
قال مجد الدين المؤيدي : ( توفي بالري سنة نيف وعشرين وأربعمائة )
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 216

16ــ أبو هاشم الحسن بن عبد الرحمن بن يحيى النفس الزكية. ( كان حيا سنة 433هـ)
مات ميتة طبيعية. قال حميد المحلي : ( واقام آمرا بالمعروف الأكبر ناهيا عن الفحشاء والمنكر، حتى توفاه الله حميدا وقبضه سعيدا )
الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص 188، وانظر : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 217

17ــ الإمام الناصر الحسين الهوسمي ( ت 472هـ)
لم ينص أحد على موته مقتولا في حرب أو سم. انظر الحدائق الوردية،ج2 ص 216، والتحف شرح الزلف، ص 222

18ــــ الموفق بالله الجرجاني الحسين بن إسماعيل بن زيد
( توفي بعد العشرين والأربعمائة تقريبا )
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 223

19ــــ يحيى بن الحسين المرشد بالله الشجري ابن الموفق بالله السابق ( 479ه)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 224

20ــ الإمام أبو الرضى الكيسمي الحسيني
قال حميد المحلي ولم يعش بعد الهادي عليه السلام إلا قليلا ثم قبضه الله تعالى إلى رحمته )
الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص 224، التحف شرح الزلف، ص 224

21ــ أبو طالب الأخير يحيى بن أبي الحسين احمد ( ت 520هـ)
مات حتف أنفه . الحدائق الوردية، ج2 ص 227، التحف شرح الزلف، ص230

22ــ المتوكل على الله أحمد بن سليمان ( ت 566هـ)
الحدائق الوردية، ج2 270، التحف شرح الزلف، ص 233

23 ــــــ المنصور بالله عبدالله بن حمزة بن سليمان ( ت 614ه)
انظر: مقدمة مجد الدين المؤيدي على كتاب الشافي للمنصور بالله، ج1 ص 23، والتحف شرح الزلف، ص 246

24ـــــ الإمام الداعي يحيى بن المحسن بن محفوظ ( ت 636هـ)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 250

25ـــــ الإمام الناصر يحيى بن محمد السراجي ( ت 696هـ)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 259

26ـــــ المنصور بالله الحسن بن بدر الدين ( ت 670ه)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 260

27ــــ الإمام المتوكل على الله المطهر بن يحيى بن المرتضى (ت 697ه)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 265

28ــــ الإمام المهدي محمد بن المطهر ( 728هـ) التحف شرح الزلف, ص  265

29ــــ الإمام الواثق المطهر بن محمد ( ت 802هـ)
عاس تسعا وتسعين سنة، ولم يذكروا في تاريخه موته مقتولا أو مسموما .
راجع : التحف شرح الزلف، ص 267

30ــــ المؤيد بالله يحيى بن حمزة ( ت 749هـ)
التحف شرح الزلف، ص 271

@Zaidism

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7 hours ago, Cool said:

What we are doing is obeying his commands which reached to us:

وأما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا فيها إلى رواة حديثنا فإنهم حجتي عليكم وأنا حجة الله

They're at each others necks last time I checked, and history tells a clear tale of dispute, takfir, and instability. Therefore, the Twelvers are once again left without guidance.

7 hours ago, Cool said:

So there is infact the hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and our presence itself is evidence of his existence. 

Not at all, the dozens of Shi'a sects that believed in occultation could use your same reasoning, but in the end one would need to point to how their particular occult Imam exists, or isn't dead. 

7 hours ago, Cool said:

The world cease to exist if there is not such guide which is the misdaq of امان لأهل الارض as stated in ahadith:

 النجوم أمان لأهل السماء، إذا ذهبت النجوم ذهب أهل السماء ، وأهل بيتي أمان لأهل الأرض فإذا ذهب أهل بيتي ذهب أهل الأرض

النجوم أمان لأهل السماء وأهل بيتي أمان لأمتي

Again, you're just reading your fantasy of sublime guidance into the words of the Messenger (upon him and his progeny be peace), I reiterate these key points

A - You cannot prove the Mahdi existed

B - The Mahdi does not guide 

C - There is no Hadith from the Messenger that designates an occult 12th Imam

If anything, these clearly point to the 'itra who established governments, fought against tyrants, refuted Atheists, Christians, Sunnis, Ismailis, Twelvers, etc. 

But all that withstanding, you need to address points A, B, and C, you can't just ignore that and start pulling out Hadiths to prove something that isn't established in the first placed. Otherwise, we would just be playing word games.

7 hours ago, Cool said:

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is sitting at throne?

اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ means what according to Zaidiyyah?

The Jabr, and Tajsim that Shareef al-Murtadha was referring to was the belief that Allah can be limited to a space, or has a body, etc. So, your attempt to somehow twist the context of their belief goes to show how desperate your attempts are getting. 

As for Zaydis, we not only negate such Kufr beliefs, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt have refuted them exceedingly. 

7 hours ago, Cool said:

He mentioned us the figure of twelve. So you have no way out. Submit yourself to the truth.

Refer to page 42 of the book 

7 hours ago, Cool said:

So I am from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), that makes me Imam?

Of course not, this is like saying 'I believe in Wilayat al-Faqih, does that make me a Wali Faqih?'

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Why are the Sons of Imams Ismail's? Why Waqifi's etc....? And why so many Syeds become atheists? Why so many Syed doing zina? Involving in haram acts? Doing i justice to themselves and to others? 

After realizing all this, ask yourself "Who are Ahlul Bayt?" 

I am referring to those who lived in the early years i.e 250 A.H, and before, and those that were raised in the lap of Imam Sadiq, not someone many centuries after. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

There is a whole chapter in Al-Kafi أن الأرض لا تخلو من حجة , better read that:

Yeah, that's a chapter I point to, to show how the reality of the Imamiyah contradicts that which al-Kafi claims. For example, when it continues from here (أن الأرض لا تخلو من حجة) and says that the reason for this is so that if the people increase in a matter the Imam reprimands them, and if they decrease he fulfills it for them. This has been non-existent for 1187 years.

8 hours ago, Cool said:

نّ الله لم يدع الأرض بغير عالم, ولولا ذلك لم يعرف الحقّ من الباطل

 روي عن  الامام عليّ(عليه السلام)، قال: (لا تخلو الأرض من قائم لله بحجّة، إمّا ظاهراً مشهوراً, أو خائفاً مغموراً, لئلا تبطل حجج الله وبيّناته

Page 64 onwards addresses this point theologically, linguistically, logically, and points how this actually maintains the Zaydi position. 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

وقال صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فيما رواه الإمام المنصور بالله عليه السلام: ((من سره أن يحيا حياتي، ويموت ميتتي، ويدخل جنة عدن التي غرسها ربي بيده، فليتول علي بن أبي طالب، وأوصياءه فهم الأولياء والأئمة من بعدي، أعطاهم الله علمي وفهمي، وهم عترتي من لحمي ودمي، إلى الله أشكو من ظالمهم من أمتي، والله لتقتلنهم أمتي لا أنالهم الله عز وجل شفاعتي)).

Let's say I have 10 sons, among them 5 are killed, and the remainder are oppressed, and go through other calamities.

If I were to pray to Allah against those who oppressed, and killed my sons that does not entail all 10 were murdered.

As for them having the knowledge of the Prophet, it is by virtue of them maintaining his authentic Sunnah, and having a consensus on their Usul, and those teachings of the Prophet which cannot be compromised.

Unlike Twelvers who claim to have immaculate guidance, but their top scholars believed in Tajsim/Jabr, others believed in Tahreef such as al-Majlisi, and al-Kulayani. You didn't even have Saduq, and Mufid agreeing on whether the Prophet could procrastinate or not, this is why al-Mufid wrote a book seeking to do Tasheeh of the 'Aqeedah of his teacher, you don't have a scent of guidance, so for you to claim immaculate guidance is mindboggling.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Lets see the Imams of Zaidiyyah, their cause of death as recorded in their own history books:

I like how you made history the judge between us, historically speaking we can reasonably say that Imam Hassan al-'Askari died from poisoning, because he died at a young age. However, you cannot prove that Imam Baqir died from poison as well, so once again if we would go by your argumentation, your argument falls flat on its face, because you can't establish whether all your 12 Imams were actually pensioned/killed. Therefore, you are going back to your circular reasoning and screaming through that echo-chamber of yours. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Why you are demanding guidance of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام).in the times of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) or Imam al-Kazim (عليه السلام)? 

I have no idea how you inferred that, that is certainly not what I am asking. 

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13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

They're at each others necks last time I checked, and history tells a clear tale of dispute, takfir, and instability. Therefore, the Twelvers are once again left without guidance.

There are already defined principles in verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for 12 Imams that Shia 12 vers follow.

There is no verse of quran that people can chose imams or can give bayah  etc to  false imams as followed by Zaydis (except Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and imam husain (عليه السلام).) like the people of sunni sect that follow caliphs first 3 ones. No diffidence in approach /principle  both have.

Yet the 12 vers are without the  guidance and Zaydi add misguided statements throughout these threads are (so called) follower of more than 140 guided imams .

This is the most mis-guided response by so called Zaydi scholar that is ever read at SC .:grin:

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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4 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Yet the 12 vers are without the  guidance and Zaydi add misguided statements throughout these threads are (so called) follower of more than 140 guided imams .

The purpose of a Zaydi Imam is to establish the Shari'ah of Allah, and act in accordance to the Sunnah of His Messenger (upon him and his progeny be peace), we don't have any exaggerated beliefs when it comes to an Imam, unlike the Twelver, and Ismaili schools.

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Guest Psychological Warfare

Zayd never claimed to be an Imam.

Whoever coined the idea of Zadi Imam, just used an evolved version of Khalaifa. 

Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appoints His Representative, NOT you and me. Whoever you and I appoint is our Representative NOT Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Representative. 

Islam is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Religion, not our(s). 

Sharia( Law) - When the Jurist states his opinion, he is saying "This could be Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Law, Not that it is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Law. Only a Masoom(Infallible) can tell us what is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Law. 

You don't believe in the infallible Imam same as the one who follow the Khalifah System. 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

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13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Again, you're just reading your fantasy of sublime guidance into the words of the Messenger (upon him and his progeny be peace), I reiterate these key points

A - You cannot prove the Mahdi existed

B - The Mahdi does not guide 

C - There is no Hadith from the Messenger that designates an occult 12th Imam

Salam

A-there is unrefutable narration  for both of Sunnis & Shias about existance  of IMam Mahdi(aj) nevertheless  we have different  viewpoints about his birth & his parents.

B-His title Mahdi means  guide which has proven in both of Sunni & Shia narrations .

C-There is undeniable  narrations  from Messenger of Allah (pbu) between both of Sunnis & Shias about his coming after a long time in end times .

only Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis have denied Imam Mahdi(aj) because  they have understood  that his reappearance  will destry their falshood .

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Jabr, and Tajsim that Shareef al-Murtadha was referring to was the belief that Allah can be limited to a space, or has a body, etc. So, your attempt to somehow twist the context of their belief goes to show how desperate your attempts are getting. 

As for Zaydis, we not only negate such Kufr beliefs, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt have refuted them exceedingly. 

 

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Unlike Twelvers who claim to have immaculate guidance, but their top scholars believed in Tajsim/Jabr, others believed in Tahreef such as al-Majlisi, and al-Kulayani. You didn't even have Saduq, and Mufid agreeing on whether the Prophet could procrastinate or not, this is why al-Mufid wrote a book seeking to do Tasheeh of the 'Aqeedah of his teacher, you don't have a scent of guidance, so for you to claim immaculate guidance is mindboggling.

 

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I like how you made history the judge between us, historically speaking we can reasonably say that Imam Hassan al-'Askari died from poisoning, because he died at a young age. However, you cannot prove that Imam Baqir died from poison as well, so once again if we would go by your argumentation, your argument falls flat on its face, because you can't establish whether all your 12 Imams were actually pensioned/killed. Therefore, you are going back to your circular reasoning and screaming through that echo-chamber of yours. 

 

You have repeated these baseless accusation  likewise  a broken record under influence  of propaganda  of Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis against  Shias even Zaydis which your accusations  is against  belief of  any Zaidi group which only we can find in  propaganda  channels  of Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis against  Shias even Zaidis which your accusations  have been refuted multiple  times in SC which you can find it in any refutation thread against Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis in SC.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, Zaidism said:

when he cursed Zurarah, Hisham b. al-Hakm, Shaytan al-Taq, and called them liars, maybe just maybe it wasn't Taqiyyah, have you ever thought of that possibility with those Qara'in in mind? 

Salam clearly Imam has not cursed Zurarah which his story has mentioned as how Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has protected him from spies of Abbasids then Imam  has praised him in another letter & explained  cause of his cursing in previous  letter which as alwayas Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis propaganda  has focused on first letter of cusing but on the other hand they have censored second letter of Imam about cause of sending first letter which this policy have repeated in simlar fashion about Hisham b. al-Hakm & about Mumin al-Taq which his enemmies from supporters of Abbasids & Nasibis have called him "Shaytan al-Taq " for insulting toward Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) due to his calling  as  Mumin al-Taq by Imam  Sadiq(عليه السلام) because  he has defeated supporters of Abbasids & Nasibis with his strong speach & logic also  he has been an expert in changing coins which no one could fool him by fake coins which gulible people  likewise you have repeated propaganda  of Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis against  these personalities i hope of fooling other which it only it has proven how much enemies  of Shias are stupid .

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15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Unlike Twelvers who claim to have immaculate guidance, but their top scholars believed in Tajsim/Jabr, others believed in Tahreef such as al-Majlisi, and al-Kulayani. You didn't even have Saduq, and Mufid agreeing on whether the Prophet could procrastinate or not, this is why al-Mufid wrote a book seeking to do Tasheeh of the 'Aqeedah of his teacher, you don't have a scent of guidance, so for you to claim immaculate guidance is mindboggling.

This is just a Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis propaganda against them by accusing  Shia scholars by   representing of   blasphemies of Wahabists & Salafists & Nasibis as belief of top Shia scholars about Tajsim/Jab & Tahreef & procrastination  of Messenger of Allah(pbu) in similar fashion which  Wahabists  &Salafists & Nasibis have aacused him to falibility & many nosense matters which have became a great tool  of Islamophobic for insulting him & about book of al-Mufid , we only have verified  holy Quran as only unrefutable book & immaculate guidance besides of narrations of infallible Imams (عليه السلام) which are in line with holy Quran  but on the other hand we have understood that that everyone maybe have different understanding from holy Quran & narrations of infallibles which maybe anyone likewise Kulayni (رضي الله عنه) & his teacher ,by the same token , Mjlisi & al-Mufid have made some mistakes in their understandig & their book which anyone with enough knowledge can find out their mistakes & fix their mistakes by writing new books in contrast to solid belief of  Wahabists & Salafists & Nasibis to their books which they have accepted anything in their books & false understanding of their top scholars even their books & beliefs would be against holy Quran .

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Hisham ibn Hakam

Muhammad Reza Atai

A biography of the great companion of the 6th Imam (a), Hisham ibn Hakam. Includes discussions of wilaya, and other debates in which he was engaged.

https://www.al-islam.org/hisham-ibn-hakam-muhammad-reza-atai

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hisham_b._al-Hakam

Mu'min al-Taq

His teknonym was Abu Ja'far,[2]3 and his epithets were "al-Ahwal",[3] "al-Taqi" , "Sahib al-Taq",[4] and "Shah al-Taq".[5] He had received these epithets since he had an exchange shop in "Taq al-Mahamil", a neighborhood in Kufa. And since he was an expert in his job and detected fake money, he came to be called "Shaytan al-Taq". It is also said that when he defeated Abu Hanifa in a debate, Abu Hanifa called him "Shaytan al-Taq"[6] (Satan of taq) for the first time. And when Hisham b. al-Hakam heard this, he was the first person who called him "Mu'min al-Taq"[7] (faithful of al-Taq). He was sometimes called Muhammad b. al-Nu'man (al-Nu'man being his grandfather).

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Rumors About Him

Mu'min al-Taq, also known as Muhammad b. al-Nu'man, has also been taken to be the head of the Nu'maniyya or Shaytaniyya sect. Some non-monotheistic beliefs are attributed to him,[25] including the beliefs that:

  1. God has no knowledge of the world before creating it[26]
  2. God is an immaterial light in a human form.[27]

Shahristani has attributed to him the beliefs of Mushabbiha[28] (those who liken God to creatures) and non-monotheistic views. Ibn Hazm maintains that Mu'min al-Taq has said in his book, al-Imama, that 40th verse Quran 9 is not in the Qur'an.[29]

However, Shiite scholars reject such attributions. Al-Najashi said that they attribute to him things that are not true.[30] Abd Allah Mamaqani rejects the view that he was from Tabaristan and that he was affiliated with the Shaytaniyya sect. In his book, A'yan al-shi'a, al-Sayyid Muhsin al-Amin says that Ibn Hazm does not know his name, so how can he know about his life and beliefs?[31] He takes the Shaytaniyya sect to be a sect that never existed and Mu'min al-Taq is exonerated from these accusations.[32]

 

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A debate between "Mu'min al-Taq" and "Abu Hanifa"
- Abu Hanifa: Do you believe in raj'a?

- Mu'min al-Taq: Yes.

- Abu Hanifa: So lend me 500 dinars so that I give it back to you when I return in raj'a.

- Mu'min al-Taq: I will accept to do that, provided that you guarantee that you return in a human form. I fear that you return in a non-human form, so that I will not know you and cannot get my money back from you.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Mu'min_al-Taq

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"Hisham is respected and of a high rank and reliable in quoting Hadith (tradition)".7

"There was a group of brilliant students of the Holy Family and Shi'a Imams who were outstanding in speculative theology (Ilm-Kalam) due to their skillfulness, proficiency and reasoning power like Hisham ibn Hakam and..."8

Hisham has many writings, discourses and books on the topics of Imamate and speculative theology. The contemporary scholars of Hisham have counted him as the greatest defender of "Wilayah" (trusteeship) and the honour of Shi'a (i.e. eye and face); the "eye of the Shi'a" (Ain-al-Taefe) in the sense that he was a watchful and vigilant protector against the deeds of the opponents. He did not neglect the smallest impudent act of the opponents against the exalted rank of "Wilayah" and did not leave even the least objections un-replied against "Imamate".

He was called "the face of Shi'a" (i.e. Wajh-al-Taefe) in the sense that anyone from among the opponents of the Shi'a who used to confront him either surrendered, converted or became fearful and refused to discuss and argue with him. Hisham used to say, "I wonder why the opponents of the Shi'a chose the man as caliph whose dismissal came from heaven and dismiss the man whose appointment came from heaven; and quoted the story of the verse Bara'at for justification."9

Unfair Accusations

Quote

The learned scholar Mr. Atarodi Ghochani writes: "The shallow narrators and flimsy opponents have unfairly accused Hisham of having beliefs contrary to the ideas of the Qur'an whereas he is the first person who has spoken about the Imamate. And Imam al-Sadiq (a) was extraordinarily attached to him and preferred him over all of his followers.11

Then he adds: "Sunni scholars have blamed him (Hisham) for infidelity and dualism and have made unfair accusations against him. However, the Shi'a scholars have given replies to all those unfair accusations and cleared his sacred personality from all those unfair accusations."12

He writes in another place: "Shahristani has mentioned a particular sect namely Hishamiyah in his book - al-Melal wa-Nahal- and has counted them as the followers of Hisham-bin-Hakam. He says that this belief of Shahristani has no genuine source and is only a mere accusation. Shahristani has taken his information from the long-time enemies and opponents of Hisham. So for this reason his writings have no value and the sacred personality of Hisham is free from any unfair blame."13

 

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Abu Mansur Abdul Qaher Baghdadi has blamed Hisham for believing in the corporeality of God and writes clearly that he believes in the corporeality of God.14

In reply to these accusations, Sayyid Murtaza known as 'Alamul Huda, notes that: "this famous sentence 'God is corporeal but not like other corporal bodies' which Hisham has been accused of saying, has been interpreted in different ways." For example, Hisham was debating with Mo'atazalah group and to defeat them Hisham used their own phraseology. Hisham said to them that suppose you are of the opinion that God is a (material) thing but not like any other things; then you must say He is a body but not like other bodies.15

 

Quote

The late Sayyid Murtaza also writes concerning this: The story of the knowledge of God regarding the accidents and happenings is also a creation of Hisham's enemies and is nothing but a condemnation as in this matter there is nothing in the records; neither from Hisham's own works nor has any other reliable and trustworthy person quoted such things regarding him.17

 

Quote

The debate that became the cause of the death of Hisham

That very day, Baghdad witnessed the most sensational struggle of the champion of speech Hisham ibn Hakam - the debate between truth and falsehood, the interesting and hilarious debate!

Yes, it was a wonderful scene. The scene ended in Hisham's victory as usual, but it was so much a cause of unrest for Haroon that when he came out of the meeting, he was extremely irritated and had become just like a wounded wild animal. Upon leaving the meeting Haroon uttered some aminous threats such as: By God, I will kill him. Who was he? By God, I will kill him! I will make him burn in fire!.......................................................................

Haroon who was very much annoyed and alarmed by the matter considered the speeches of Hisham as the biggest danger to the caliphate, and had decided several times to kill Hisham. He had warned him of his death, especially on that very day when Yahya ibn Khaled had arranged the meeting by the order of Haroon and he had listened to the convincing speech of Hisham personally and had sworn to kill him........................................................................................When the news of his death reached Haroon, he said: "Thank God, I got rid of his mischief."

 

When the news of the death of Hisham was brought to the 8th Imam (a), he prayed to God for his forgiveness and said: A great pillar of defence for Wilayah and Imamate has vanquished.1

Hazrat Jawad al-Aimma (a) also used to say about him that: God may bless him as he used to endeavor to clarify the doubts of the opponents and defend our right cause and faith.

 

Quote

Then to prove the special intellectual position of Hisham, Imam al-Sadiq (a) asked him a few questions regarding the Exalted Divine names (of Allah) and the formation of names relating to the creator's attributes. Hisham replied to them all correctly and very eloquently and clearly. Then Imam al-Sadiq (a) said:

"O Hisham, God has bestowed this versatility and farsightedness upon you because you must repel the evil acts of our enemies."

Then he prayed to God for him and said:

"May God reward you for your knowledge and make your foot firm in the path, of God and our way of guidance.

https://www.al-islam.org/hisham-ibn-hakam-muhammad-reza-atai/characteristics-hisham#remarks-scholars-regarding-hisham

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is just a Wahabists Salafists & Nasibis propaganda against them by accusing  Shia scholars by   representing of   blasphemies of Wahabists & Salafists & Nasibis as belief of top Shia scholars about Tajsim/Jab & Tahreef & procrastination  of Messenger of Allah(pbu) in similar fashion which  Wahabists  &Salafists & Nasibis have aacused him to falibility & many nosense matters which have became a great tool  of Islamophobic for insulting him & about book of al-Mufid , we only have verified  holy Quran as only unrefutable book & immaculate guidance besides of narrations of infallible Imams (عليه السلام) which are in line with holy Quran  but on the other hand we have understood that that everyone maybe have different understanding from holy Quran & narrations of infallibles which maybe anyone likewise Kulayni (رضي الله عنه) & his teacher ,by the same token , Mjlisi & al-Mufid have made some mistakes in their understandig & their book which anyone with enough knowledge can find out their mistakes & fix their mistakes by writing new books in contrast to solid belief of  Wahabists & Salafists & Nasibis to their books which they have accepted anything in their books & false understanding of their top scholars even their books & beliefs would be against holy Quran .

I remember sunnis argued with the same thing and my answer is simple, we only take from the Quran and Infallibles. The Scholars can believe in whatever concepts they want, take it from ancients philosophy or not, it does not necessarily represent Kitabullah and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) viewpoint. The Imams did criticized their companions when they saw that they have reached to wrong viewpoints. We don't take our scholars the same way how sunnis take their sahabas.

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On 11/29/2021 at 8:28 AM, Zaidism said:

Page 51 onwards goes to show why he is most justified in what he says, you just throw him and Sheikh 'Asif Muhsini under the bus when you don't like the conclusions they make.

Its not like throwing them away.

Thery'e scholars.

Its a out digging things out to get to an unbiased appropriate conclusion.

Not to quote some text that can't be established or proved and start quoting it just because it suits a particular sects belief.

On 11/29/2021 at 8:26 AM, Zaidism said:

Zurarah, Hisham, al-Taq, et al. Did not know who the Imam was after each Imam

They've known about it and at multiple occasions, they had to pretend they don't to save their lives which was by order of Imams (عليه السلام) ( taqqiyah ).

You can say shias have taqqiyah excuse for everything, but you can't deny the oppression shias have faced i:e arrests, murders upon recognition or for spreading religion etc

Its easy to mock us, but very difficult to actually go through those situations especially when companions had to spread deen while hiding their identities from spies and government.

On 11/29/2021 at 8:26 AM, Zaidism said:

Brother, if I take your standards I can end this debate with two points.

We share Qur'an and Hadith Thaqalayn 

A - Qur'an said religion was perfected after the Prophet, therefore, no Nass after the Prophet.

B - The Prophet left the Qur'an and 'itra, the 'itra are the sons of Imam Hassan, and Imam Hussein.

Conclusion: You don't have evidence to restrict the 'itra to the sons of Imam Hussein only.

Yes we share that narration.

We for ourselves have evidence to restrict itra to descendants of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) because we've multiple narrations from Imams (عليه السلام) and Imams convey sayings of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) so your point *no nass after Prophet* wont help you out here.

Also you have no narrations for appointment of your imams. You don't even consider them masoom. Therefore itra who can never separate from Quran can never be your non-masoom imams from Ahlebait.

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said: I leave behind two weighty things if you hold fast to them you'll never go astray , Quran and my itra Ahlulbait. So look how you deal with them after me as they'll never seperate from each other till they meet me at hawd.

Quran is error free 100% pure and from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). so how can people, who by mutawatir nass can never seperate from Quran be Non Masoom?

How can people who by a mutawatir nass can never ever let you go astray if you follow them?

These just don't fit your non masoom and non appointed imams

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