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In the Name of God بسم الله

Omar is thought be a "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest"

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Cyrax

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

أحسن الله إليكم ونفع بكم

I wanted to share a fascinating report, commonly used by 12er Shi'a polemicists as proof that Imam Ali عليه السلام had a negative view of Omar.  This is, of course, the famous hadeeth in which we are told that Imam Ali عليه السلام thought Omar to be a "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest."  I wanted to share this hadeeth in its entirety, as it is a common claim that this hadeeth is censored by the non-Shi'i Muslims in some deliberate attempt to hide the reality that Imam Ali عليه السلام thought this way of Omar.  However, when we look into this hadeeth, we might find that it is perhaps the 12er Shi'i polemicists who are the ones doing the censoring in hopes of presenting a certain message.

This hadeeth is narrated in Saheeh Muslim number 1757, here is a link to the hadeeth https://sunnah.com/muslim:1757c

Quote

Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar.

Immediately we see, that the first person using this phrase is al-Abbaas, Imam Ali عليه السلام's uncle, in reference to Imam Ali عليه السلام.  Its also interesting, that they were coming to get judgement by Omar.  There are a lot of implications here that I think will naturally get discussed without the need of my input.

Quote

The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes.

Again, the implications here are quite great, so I will let the brothers get the discussion going as not only is this just another narration of this hadeeth that the 12er Shi'a polemicists presented as being fabricated by Abu Bakr, but it is also a confirmation by both al-Abbaas and Imam Ali عليه السلام regarding its authenticity.  Unfortunately, I know the common response to these sort of reports, "this part of the hadeeth is weak, and the part that confirms my aqeedah is saheeh."  Much like the hadeeth of the Prophet صلى الله عليه سلم saying that "whoever angers Fatima angers me", where they accept that part, and reject the part that it was in regards to Imam Ali عليه السلام wanting to marry a second wife.  Or the Ghadeer Khum hadeeth, or the Kisaa' hadeeth etc

Quote

(Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes.

Not much that needs commenting on here, but what's really interesting is what comes next:

Quote

He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

I honestly highlighted the whole thing because there is just too much there to ignore.

In reality, if the mainstream Muslims wanted to censor this hadeeth, it would be because it makes Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas look bad, not because of any other implications.

That's my reading anyway, what do you guys think, أحسن الله إليكم?

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Mufti Faruq (Sunni) in the discussion about Fadak at Al-Mahdi institute said this was a mistake on Abu Bakr's (رضي الله عنه) part. This Hadith about not leaving anything for their heirs has no basis, according to Mufti Saab. 

Can any of our Sunni brothers bring me other narrations which can support:

"the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"

Edited by 145_turbo_16V
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15 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Mufti Faruq (Sunni) in the discussion about Fadak at Al-Mahdi institute said this was a mistake on Abu Bakr's (رضي الله عنه) part. This Hadith about not leaving anything for their heirs has no basis, according to Mufti Saab. 

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته,

Who is Mufti Faruq بارك الله فيك?  And why should I take his view when it contradicts the opinion of Imam Ali عليه السلام?

16 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Can any of our Sunni brothers bring me other narrations which can support:

"the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"

Of course, the one I quote in this thread and which Imam Ali عليه السلام confirmed:

17 hours ago, Cyrax said:

The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes.

As far as the rest of the narration, do you have any input, نفع الله بك?

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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21 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Mufti Faruq (Sunni) in the discussion about Fadak at Al-Mahdi institute said this was a mistake on Abu Bakr's (رضي الله عنه) part. This Hadith about not leaving anything for their heirs has no basis, according to Mufti Saab. 

Can any of our Sunni brothers bring me other narrations which can support:

"the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"

I apologize, I totally misunderstood your request.  Here is a list from wikipedia so I don't link to a "Sunni site"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_Muhammad's_inheritance#Event

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Its interesting that on two previous  occasion's Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his Uncle believed Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. Then this third meeting with Umar they accepted his verdict that Prophets ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) dont leave inheritance...... 

It just doesn't make, because  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Had already demonstrated his view by stating  Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest on issue of inheritance, they why would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) approach Umar again on the same matter knowing of Umar position on inheritance?? 

 

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28 minutes ago, power said:

Its interesting that on two previous  occasion's Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his Uncle believed Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. Then this third meeting with Umar they accepted his verdict that Prophets ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) dont leave inheritance...... 

It just doesn't make, because  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Had already demonstrated his view by stating  Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest on issue of inheritance, they why would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) approach Umar again on the same matter knowing of Umar position on inheritance?? 

 

السلام عليكم

Like I stated in my conclusion, if this report needs censoring, its to censor Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas' actions since it seems quite obvious the Ummah, those who are present and those who came after them, including Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbass, agreed with Abu Bakr and Omar's ruling.

However, it is important to note that no where in this report does anyone call anyone "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest" except al-Abbaas to his nephew Ali عليه السلام.  Omar just quoted that phrase much like I might say to someone who keeps coming to me saying "last week you came to me and thought me a liar because I told you x, y and z and I turned out to be right, and here you are bringing up a similar issue and again, you thought me to be a liar and it turned out I was right."  Imam Ali عليه السلام never actually calls any one that.

I suppose this report really helps clarify why Imam Ali عليه السلام dealt with Fadak the way that he did; its because he, like the rest of the Muslims, ultimately agreed with Abu Bakr's verdict and was satisfied with the salary he, along with the rest of Ahl al-Bayt including the wives and Imam Ali's children عليهم السلام, received

Edited by Cyrax
I had to reword something
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17 minutes ago, Cyrax said:

Like I stated in my conclusion, if this report needs censoring, its to censor Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas' actions

It looks like you haven't actually even read this tradition. Learn about this matter properly first, before drawing further baseless, half-baked conclusions.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

It looks like you haven't actually even read this tradition. Learn about this matter properly first, before drawing further baseless, half-baked conclusions.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته,

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك,

I am really surprised that you are accusing me of having "not read" the tradition, you can say I didn't understand it, but how can any one who has read my post come to that conclusion?  Unless, of course, they didn't it.

And imagine if, you objected to something I said, and my response to you was posting a video made by Sunnah Defense or Hassan Shemrani?

If you are unable to participate in the conversation, just move on and let someone else take a crack.  If you can, then please post any of your objections.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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1 hour ago, Cyrax said:

السلام عليكم

Like I stated in my conclusion, if this report needs censoring, its to censor Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas' actions since it seems quite obvious the Ummah, those who are present and those who came after them, including Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbass, agreed with Abu Bakr and Omar's ruling.

However, it is important to note that no where in this report does anyone call anyone "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest" except al-Abbaas to his nephew Ali عليه السلام.  Omar just quoted that phrase much like I might say to someone who keeps coming to me saying "last week you came to me and thought me a liar because I told you x, y and z and I turned out to be right, and here you are bringing up a similar issue and again, you thought me to be a liar and it turned out I was right."  Imam Ali عليه السلام never actually calls any one that.

I suppose this report really helps clarify why Imam Ali عليه السلام dealt with Fadak the way that he did; its because he, like the rest of the Muslims, ultimately agreed with Abu Bakr's verdict and was satisfied with the salary he, along with the rest of Ahl al-Bayt including the wives and Imam Ali's children عليهم السلام, received

He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Cyrax said:

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته,

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك,

I am really surprised that you are accusing me of having "not read" the tradition, you can say I didn't understand it, but how can any one who has read my post come to that conclusion?  Unless, of course, they didn't it.

And imagine if, you objected to something I said, and my response to you was posting a video made by Sunnah Defense or Hassan Shemrani?

If you are unable to participate in the conversation, just move on and let someone else take a crack.  If you can, then please post any of your objections.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa alaikum as salam.

You haven't exactly addressed what I was getting at. According to you, the only censorship that was necessary was to cover  Maula Ali's and Al-Abbas's actions.

In the same post, you wrote that no one called anyone a liar, treacherous, dishonest, and sinful were Maula Ali, and Abbas. The only reason that you reached this faulty conclusion is that you haven't actually read this tradition, including the Arabic.

For your information, I have shared this tradition with Ahle Hadith friends; instead of coming up with far fetched interpretations and twisting of words, they chose to stay silent instead. That is the only proper response to this tradition from a sunni point of view; silence. Like the tradition related to Ammar ibn Yasir, there is actually no proper response to this tradition.

Again, it would be better for you to properly read and listen to what Maghrebi actually has to say before jumping to conclusions.

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I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

Which "Property" is Umar referring to? and support this with evidence to show Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his Uncle was entrusted with Prophets ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) property?

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته يا إخوان!

I wanted to reply to both of you @power and @Sabrejet at the same time if you guys don't mind, جزاكما الله خيرا.

1 hour ago, power said:

The above highlighted is clearly implying Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his Uncle believed Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. 

Exactly what I have been saying this whole time, they initially thought he was wrong and then conceded that he was right, بارك الله فيك.  Note what is being said:

"you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth."

This is what Islamic history tells us, initially there was some issues with some of the Ahl al-Bayt regarding some of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's property.  Abu Bakr said to Lady Fatima عليها السلام that he won't give Fadak to any one who normally would inherit the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, not her عليها السلام, nor the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's wives, even though two of them were the daughters of Abu Bakr and Omar.  Omar then asks both Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas, "I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes."

As we can see, so far, Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas agreed with Abu Bakr and then Omar's handling of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's property; which was the way it was handled during Uthman and Imam Ali عليه السلام's reign.

Then he goes on to say, "Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us."  Amazing, that they really thought him to be "a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest" and yet they somehow both entrust their property to him and ask him to litigate between them.  Could you imagine thinking that way of someone and simultaneously asking them to litigate between  you and your family (!) and then also accepting his verdict?  بارك الله فيك, think about it a little.

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Wa alaikum as salam.

You haven't exactly addressed what I was getting at. According to you, the only censorship that was necessary was to cover  Maula Ali's and Al-Abbas's actions.

In the same post, you wrote that no one called anyone a liar, treacherous, dishonest, and sinful were Maula Ali, and Abbas. The only reason that you reached this faulty conclusion is that you haven't actually read this tradition, including the Arabic.

I said no one called any one that phrase except al-Abbaas in reference to Imam Ali عليه السلام.  My claim is that Imam Ali عليه السلام never said this phrase, and it was Omar quoting al-Abbaas.  If you can find something different in the Arabic version, then please let me know, but you and I know, بارك الله فيك, that I can read the report in both Arabic and English.

Obviously, if there was really something different in the Arabic, you would've posted it.  Instead, we'll just move on...

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

For your information, I have shared this tradition with Ahle Hadith friends; instead of coming up with far fetched interpretations and twisting of words, they chose to stay silent instead. That is the only proper response to this tradition from a sunni point of view; silence. Like the tradition related to Ammar ibn Yasir, there is actually no proper response to this tradition.

Umm... all I can say to something like this is ok...  

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Again, it would be better for you to properly read and listen to what Maghrebi actually has to say before jumping to conclusions.

Again, if I was to link to the dozen or so videos Sunnah Defense did refuting him, would you consider that a proper response to your post?  Again, and doesn't my post sound like it is in direct reference to 12er Polemicists, like Dhil Fiqar and Shia Pen, who use this argument to promote the idea that Imam Ali عليه السلام hated Omar?  I literally mention that immediately in my first post.  The right thing to do, أحسن الله إليك, is to actually engage with my post instead of deflecting by linking to videos, and talking about how your "Ahle hadith friends" stayed silent.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Edited by Cyrax
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21 hours ago, Cyrax said:

" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes."

As we can see, so far, Imam Ali عليه السلام and al-Abbaas agreed with Abu Bakr and then Omar's handling of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's property; which was the way it was handled during Uthman and Imam Ali عليه السلام's reign.

 

 

   Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) believed  Abu Bakr and Umar were liars, because Imam Ali A(عليه السلام) did not accept the verdict based upon the Hadith quoted by  Abu bakr  and Umar that: the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity" Hence Imam Ali (عليه السلام) calling then liars right? 

This is the stance of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) he reject's the hadith of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) quoted by Abu Bakr and Umar, In addition, Bibi fatima (sa) died angry with Abu bakr and Umar because they rejected her claim of inheritance. 

You state below:

they initially thought he was wrong and then conceded that he was right, بارك الله فيك.  Note what is being said:

"you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth."

Your above statement is not doing any justice,  I mean on what bases did Umar convince Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he is truthful, what argument did Umar use that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) conceded in the hadith ?  Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) never accepted the hadith to be true so how was he convinced or he conceded ? 

You need to present a comprehensive details that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) conceded that is compelling, rather than showing continuous repetition of Umar saying:

the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"

This fabricated hadith above was not accepted by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or Bibi Fatima (sa) 

 

 

 

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Cyrax,

the hadith about inheritance is found in Sahih Muslim, and as far as I know nowhere else, no other sahabah has quoted this…. unless someone kind point me to the contrary.  Is there another source or is the something which other sahabah also testified to? Ummul Mu’minin Aisha (رضي الله عنه) also said something similar.
 

I’ve been searching for a while. Because what we have here is that Fatimah (عليه السلام) disagreed with (what I believe to be khabar al ahad hadith), she gave her arguments but it was dismissed. This hadith is actually his ijtihad. Quite simply, I’ll put it to you blatantly, he Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) either made it up or mixed it up with something. Because if you want to compare it to the Quran or the statement of Fatimah (عليه السلام) then someone is mistaken.

 

also the opinion of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is probably not what has been recorded in Sahih Bukhari. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was Fatima’s (عليه السلام) witness…did he just change his mind after hearing the hadith from Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه)? Makes no sense at all. Also the hadith is goes against the Quran:

Chapter (27) sūrat l-naml (The Ants)

http://www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/27_16.png

Sahih International: And Solomon inherited David. He said, "O people, we have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given from all things. Indeed, this is evident bounty."

 

 

 

Edited by 145_turbo_16V
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