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In the Name of God بسم الله

Negative Twitter reaction to Saudi concert

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Warning some 'music' in OP, but following reactions interesting. Inshallah it marks the beginning of the end. Click translate button to read the Arabic:

 

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On 10/23/2021 at 8:50 AM, Haji 2003 said:

Warning some 'music' in OP, but following reactions interesting. Inshallah it marks the beginning of the end. Click translate button to read the Arabic:

 

Saudi Arabia is not the same country as it used to be, in fact the youth of the KSA are just as liberal as the youth in the other parts of the Arab world. 

Saudi Arabia will eventually implement laws similar to other Gulf countries, where there are baseline Islamic restrictions but still attractive enough for Western tourism and investment.

You will really only see strict Islamic guidelines in Mecca and Medina, at the same time you will see another Dubai in the City of Neom that is currently being built.

The region is changing, and Islamism seems to be on a dying trend in the Arab world. Nationalism and liberalism is on the rise.

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

 

You will really only see strict Islamic guidelines in Mecca and Medina, at the same time you will see another Dubai in the City of Neom that is currently being built.

My thoughts also. It will pretty much look and feel like the UAE or Qatar. 

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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

My thoughts also. It will pretty much look and feel like the UAE or Qatar. 

Agreed, though the reason for the original post was to highlight how much of a surprise this is to Muslims (Sunnis) in the Middle East and elsewhere.

I wonder how much inspiration this provides to future Bin Ladens. Going by the comments, this seems to be crossing a red line (references to the Qur'an etc.) that similar activities in Dubai had not (to my knowledge anyway).

Also an interesting piece in today's FT suggesting that the entry of Saudi into the 'liberal' arena may lead to a race to the bottom:
 

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While rumours abound that Saudi Arabia may legalise alcohol in certain areas, like the KAFD and Red Sea tourism projects, there is speculation that the UAE could decriminalise homosexuality and change its working week from Sunday to Thursday, to Monday to Friday.

https://www.ft.com/content/79abe724-0e42-4933-8305-61524f24e1ae

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@Haji 2003 certainly many will be alarmed at the fast degradation of social morals in Saudi Arabia, but I also agree with @Sumerian that large portions of secular society, particularly the globalized, social media youth, will see this positively. For now I think many prefer to silently approve rather than to stick their necks out openly (no pun intended) with public shows of support. 

Regarding your second link to the FT, this is indeed a new low. While it doesn't surprise me that religion has sadly been abandoned by many, or at least secularized, I am amazed at how quickly the Arabs abandoned their cultural conservatism in such affairs.

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You will sometimes find that the Muslim diaspora in the West is more "extremist" than the ones back home.

Either way I believe the general trend is religiosity among Muslim youth globally is declining, and that means that political religious movements like the Brotherhood will also decline, the fear is this may allow for the more extreme groups such as Al-Qaeda or ISIS to recruit. 

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Religion seems to survive better in an economy that is still insular (feudal), that is, not yet open to globalisation via international trade. Otherwise, consumerism tends to supplant the tribe, nation, and family—the three nuclei of religion. In Europe feudalism declined with the abolition of monasteries and the rise of mercantilism in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The facilitation of international communications only enabled the erosion of local social mores, customs, and organic structures. Shutting down media, including radio, in general might actually serve to isolate communities from potentially harmful influences. People tend to thrive in closely knit communities of their kin rather than heterogeneous agglomerations enforced by open borders, communications, and trade.

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1 hour ago, Reza said:

How did Islam spread from Arabia to Indonesia?

I am a little surprised that you, as a Shia, are lumping in Shia Islam with Sunni Islam. You are referring mainly to the expansion of Sunni Islam, including Sufism and various syncretistic, mystical sects. Given that Shias do not regard these as true Islam (and vice versa), for the sake of the argument I am not counting various Sunni sects as part of “Islam.” Sunni ideology and its offshoots spread mainly by conquest, at least in the MENA and South-Central Asia (see the Indian subcontinent), but also reached farther-flung locales such as Indonesia via trade, including the slave-trade. Indonesian expressions of Islam, in particular, are quite distinct from those of orthodox Shia Islam and are often at variance with those of the various Sunni schools. The most “orthodox” forms of Sunni ideology have tended to be concentrated close to their respective points of origin, geographically. The same basic truism—that the “fruit never falls far from the (geographic) tree”—goes for the most “orthodox” forms of Shia Islam, which in their fullest civilisational expression(s) were and are primarily centred on Iran (Persia).

Religious communities tend to survive as doctrinally pure, organic entities by isolating themselves from interaction with heterogeneous influences. That is why religious communities have historically been self-governing and thus local, being centred on extended-kinship networks such as the family, tribe, or nation, whose “purest” mode of existence has tended to be centred on some form of agriculture: in other words, ties of blood and soil predominated. Safavid Iran, for instance, was largely feudal in organisation, being based on large, rural landholdings. The influence of the bazaars was subordinated to the role of the landed clergy. Cities, by contrast, have generally tended to be open to trade and industrialism and thus have historically been the fonts of religious pluralism, reformism, and secularism, as in the Netherlands and the British Empire. The Saudis have used the fruits of Western industrial capitalism, including social media and free trade, to disseminate Wahhabi–Salafi sectarianism via oil-based revenue(s). The expansion of trade, investment, and communication(s) tends to be more of a disruptive than a conservative force, whether ideologically or culturally.

During the European Middle Ages, the modern-day nation-state did not exist as such, as Europe was divided into hundreds or even thousands of local principalities, including a relative handful of prosperous city-states (Venice, the Hanseatic League, and so on) here and there, the latter of which came into being following the Crusades, which spawned the forces that brought the medieval era to a close via the Renaissance (mercantilistic humanism). For most of the medieval era, the highly localised forms of rule that predominated also served to isolate religious communities from external influences, so the feudal order was relatively decentralised and static at the same time. The rise of capitalism, however, during the Renaissance and Reformation brought into being disruptive forces that eventually destroyed Christendom, as the effects of the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions on religiosity attest; these forces brought about mass society and acted as levellers that destroyed feudalism, which to a very large degree was Christendom (Catholic or Orthodox) itself. Feudalism was the natural soil of Christian order, and its destruction meant the end of traditional Christianity itself.

Interestingly, traditionalist, orthodox Jews have long frowned upon excessive involvement in trade and investment, to not mention modern science:

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Chief Sephardic Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef ... this week declared that math and science are “nonsense.” ...

Israel certainly has a Haredi-education problem. It’s bad enough when 10 percent or 12 percent of the population doesn’t have the education and skills to contribute to a modern economy; it will be impossible, if the number grows to 20 percent, as demographers forecast will be the case by the year 2039. ...

Rabbi Yosef never learned any math or science ... any English or macroeconomics, either.

Source

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 In Provence and Spain the anti-Maimonidean camp was led by Solomon b. Abraham of Montpellier, *Jonah b. Abraham Gerondi , the poet Meshullam *da Piera , and above all Naḥmanides. The position of Naḥmanides is remarkable for its simultaneous flexibility in expression and rigidity of mental attitude. ...

The situation he describes is actually that of Spanish and Provençal Jewish upper society in the early 13th century:

They have filled their belly with the foolishness of the Greeks … they … make fun … of the trusting souls.… They did not enter profoundly into the ways of our Torah; the ways of alien children suffice for them. But for the words of [Maimonides], but for the fact that they live out of the mouth of his works … they would have slipped almost entirely.

It is not only a matter of false spiritual pride and alien culture; it is also a case born of social necessity:

God save and guard us, my teachers, from such a fate. Look about and see: is there a pain like our pain? For the sons have been exiled from their fathers' tables; they have defiled themselves with the food of gentiles and the wine of their feasts. They have mixed with them and become used to their deeds … courtiers have been permitted to study Greek wisdom, to become acquainted with medicine, to learn mathematics and geometry, other knowledge and tricks, so that they make a living in royal courts and palaces.

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10 hours ago, Northwest said:

I am a little surprised that you, as a Shia, are lumping in Shia Islam with Sunni Islam.

You made a general point that religion survives primarily in “insular” economies, and I asked a question using one counter example of a religion expanding and thriving through the opposite mechanism.

Here’s another question: when religious texts have been translated into scores of world languages, how is that facilitated? 

And another: How does the concept of a  “globalized” Mahdi fit into your premise?

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Tbh I’m not surprised, I live in gulf and they start living like the west.

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14 hours ago, Northwest said:

I am a little surprised that you, as a Shia, are lumping in Shia Islam with Sunni Islam. You are referring mainly to the expansion of Sunni Islam,

Hi , Shia Islam also has been expanded to countries like wise Indonesia by merchants & migrants  through silk road which first time Shia Islam has expanded to Thailand  by an Iranian Shia merchant "Shaykh Ahmad Qomi" from city of Qom  who has been both a clergy & merchant  who has became one of wise advisors  of  Ayutthaya Kingdom & head of Muslim clergies which his descendants  have inherited his Islamic position for generations  which still now his descendants  have been  known  as "Bunnag family" .

Also Shia Islam has been spread for first time by Sayed migrants from Yemen  who are descendants  of Muhammad  & Hasan sons (ibn) Ali son (ibn) Imam  Sadiq(عليه السلام) which still now they are from high ranking & elite community  in Indonesia  which both of these old Shia generations have been in edge of forgetting  their shia Identity  due to converting to Buddhism  which after Iran revolution  their identity  & faith as Shia muslim has been revived  & also some natives has converted to Shia Islam due to affection  of Iran revolution  on southeast  of Asia nevertheless unfortunately  old generation  Shia & new converts have not united which other ,so therefore they are still vulnerable  to attacks of KSA wahabi influenced  radicals in these countries .  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Thailand

https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/شیخ_احمد_قمی

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/احمد_قمی

First Propagator of Shia Islam in Thailand Commemorated

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TEHRAN (IQNA) –  A ceremony was held in Ayutthaya Rajabhat University in Thailand to commemorate Sheikh Ahmad Qomi, a 16th century Iranian Shia cleric who spread Shia Islam in Southeast Asia.

http://iqna.ir/files/fa/news/1397/2/25/897258_471.jpg

https://iqna.ir/en/news/3465841/first-propagator-of-shia-islam-in-thailand-commemorated

Indonesian Shia leader Jalaluddin Rakhmat dies from Covid-19

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Most of Indonesia’s roughly one million Shia are concentrated in the Jakarta metro area.

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/458234/Indonesian-Shia-leader-Jalaluddin-Rakhmat-dies-from-Covid-19

Sunni radicals attack Shias during wedding vigil in Central Java

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Solo (AsiaNews) – Sunni extremists attacked the home of a family hosting a group of Shias taking part in “Midodareni” prayers. The latter are held on the eve of a wedding, and are attended by neighbours and relatives of the bridge and groom. The guests receive some small gifts.

In this particular case, the ceremony was held at the home of Assegaf bin Jufri, a Sunni, in Metrodana, a village on the outskirts of Surakarta (Solo), in Central Java.

A mob of about 100 people attacked the ceremony yesterday resulting in minor injuries for two adults and a 15-year-old boy.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Sunni-radicals-attack-Shias-during-wedding-vigil-in-Central-Java-50762.html

Indonesia: Shia Uprooted by Violence on Madura Island Long to Go Home

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They are among more than 330 residents here who belong to Indonesia’s Shia Muslim minority and were forced to flee their village on nearby Madura Island in 2012, after an attack by neighbors from the Sunni majority left one person dead.

Now, the leader of the uprooted community who was formerly imprisoned for alleged blasphemy, says he sees a glimmer of hope that the Shia will soon be able to live again in Sampang, their home regency.

“Our intention has always been to return to our home village,” Tajul Muluk, who is a cleric, told BenarNews. “We hope it won’t be delayed until next year. The local government needs to provide certainty.”

 

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In July 2012, a local court sentenced Tajul to two years in prison after finding him guilty of spreading deviant teachings “causing public anxiety” and blaspheming Islam. The term was later raised to four years after prosecutors appealed for a longer sentence.

During his trial in Madura, some witnesses testified that the cleric had taught that the current Quran was not an authentic text; Muslims should pray only three times a day instead of five; and the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca was not obligatory.

 

Quote

In its 2018 Report on International Religious Freedom, which it published last year, the U.S. State Department noted the case of the uprooted Indonesian Shia community.

“More than 338 Shia Muslims from Madura remained displaced on the outskirts of Surabaya … after communal violence forced them from their homes in 2012,” the report said.

The State Department noted that the Indonesian Council of Ulema (MUI), the country’s top clerical body that is funded by the government, had called upon mosques to increase compassion and tolerance instead of hatred and hate speech, in the wake of attacks carried out in 2018 against religious minority groups, including Ahmadi Muslims.

But “Intolerant groups” also used MUI fatwas to justify actions against religious minorities and other vulnerable groups, even though the fatwas lacked legal standing, the report noted.

“Individuals affiliated at the local level with the MUI used rhetoric considered intolerant by religious minorities, including fatwas declaring Shia and Ahmadis as deviant sects,” it said. “Shia and Ahmadi Muslims reported feeling under constant threat from ‘intolerant groups.’”

There are an estimated 2.5 million Shias in Indonesia, but most of them keep their beliefs secret, citing fears of being persecuted or estranged from their families.

 

Quote

In March 2020, representatives of the Shia community in Sidoarja went to the office of East Java Gov. Khofifah Indar Parawansa to demand that they be allowed to return for good to Madura and that a 2012 gubernatorial regulation on the monitoring of “deviant sects” be revoked. Both Madura and Sidoarja are in East Java province.

Khofifah, who did not see the protesters, sent a senior official to meet with the Shia group at their apartment complex, but his office has since taken no concrete action to meet their demands, Tajul said.

“So far, there has been no response from the governor,” Tajul said.

 

Quote

However in 2018, the government of Sidoarja stopped allowing Shia children to attend pre-school, forcing the community to provide early childhood education independently, he said.

Many Shia residents make a living as farmers and selling food, including traditional Madurese satay, to supplement a monthly stipend of 709,000 rupiah (U.S. $48) they receive from the government. Some others do odds jobs, including in construction.

“We are not accustomed to living on handouts. The thing that we have in mind most is returning to our home village,” Tajul said.

He said the community had no problems accessing basic government services, such as obtaining ID cards, marriage certificates as well as papers for their properties back home.

https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/indonesian/shia-home-05202020164016.html

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14 hours ago, Reza said:

You made a general point that religion survives primarily in “insular” economies, and I asked a question using one counter example of a religion expanding and thriving through the opposite mechanism.

I also countered that a religion in its pure form tends to become diluted as soon as it ventures far from its original point of origin. At that point cultural syncretism takes over.

Examples: Arabian Sunnis adopting polytheistic elements from neighbouring East Africans, Indonesian Shias lapsing into indigenous Buddhism, and sundry Sufis worldwide.

14 hours ago, Reza said:

Here’s another question: when religious texts have been translated into scores of world languages, how is that facilitated?

A religion cannot be fully comprehensible outside its original linguistic context, so translation in many cases may actually obscure the intended and/or original meaning(s).

14 hours ago, Reza said:

And another: How does the concept of a  “globalized” Mahdi fit into your premise?

The question, then, is whether the Hidden Imam’s order would necessarily be highly centralised or (relatively) decentralised. Expansion and centralisation of capital has historically tended to strengthen special interests and governments that enact policies to the detriment of religious communities. Technically, technological advancement is superficially neutral, but in practice transitioning from, say, the horse and buggy (or camel) to the train, automobile, and airplane involves a spiritual change as well. During the Middle Ages long-distance travel by land involved hardship, but today one can travel worldwide with relative ease or even convenience. There is less sacrifice involved, or the nature of the sacrifice has changed, and is thus no longer as lofty as it was. For the same reason traditional societies preferred certain forms of exercise and/or sport over others, i.e., archery, horsemanship, swimming, sprinting, and wrestling instead of, say, boxing or football. An activity and the means by which it is effected, even technological, has a “soul” of its own. What seems clear is that a high concentration of resources in the hands of a monopolistic government-corporate (financial) nexus has not benefitted religion historically.

One must also examine the main forces that lie behind globalisation, free trade, open borders, and so on. The Masonic Order is the primary facilitator of a centralised one-world government, acting through neoliberal agencies such as the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank, the UN, NATO, economic blocs such as the EU, and so on. The Masons want to abolish national borders and install a postmodernist, technocratic dictatorship, subsuming national, religious, tribal, and all other distinctions. Iran, among other countries, is fighting this very conspiracy that relies on endless resources to undermine sovereign states and individuals (heads of family). Iran’s statist, pro-national, pro-religious response is to erect a wall between itself and the external—especially Western—world, in order to protect itself from imperialistic cultural and economic forces. Globalisation is clearly destructive in that it deconstructs entire societies and erects an artificial order or simulacrum in its place. Aside from un-Islamic social practices, Iran would certainly not adopt a Western-style neoliberal policy, i.e., unregulated free trade and immigration.

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On 10/24/2021 at 4:12 AM, Sumerian said:

Saudi Arabia is not the same country as it used to be, in fact the youth of the KSA are just as liberal as the youth in the other parts of the Arab world. 

Saudi Arabia will eventually implement laws similar to other Gulf countries, where there are baseline Islamic restrictions but still attractive enough for Western tourism and investment.

You will really only see strict Islamic guidelines in Mecca and Medina, at the same time you will see another Dubai in the City of Neom that is currently being built.

The region is changing, and Islamism seems to be on a dying trend in the Arab world. Nationalism and liberalism is on the rise.

But it seems it is not the same thing everywhere when we see what happened in Afghanistan and in some African regions. I would be curious to see what happen in Yemen however if houtis manage to capture more territories.

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I am thinking about it sometimes.

Isnt it possible that if mbs continue like that he will maybe know the same path than pahlavi who tried to secularized by force his country like mbs is doing right now ?

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