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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did rasool announce khilafat of mawla Ali in Ghadeer Khum not in Arafat

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported

One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said:

“Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: “The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.”

He (Husain b. Sabra) said to Zaid: “Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family?”

Thereupon he said: “His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.”

And he Husain b. Sabra said: “Who are they?” Thereupon he said: “'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas.”

Husain b. Sabra said: “These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.” Zaid b. Arqam said: “Yes.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2408a

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We, give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful - Verse 23 Surah ash-Shura

This Blessed verse was revealed to require the Muslims to love the of the near relatives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), who are: the Noble Wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Hz. Ali, Lady Fatima, Hz. Hasan and the offspring of al-Hassan, Hz. Hussein and the offspring of al-Hussein, Hz. 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil, Hz. Jaffar and the offspring of Ja'far, Hz. ’Abbas and the offspring of 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them all)

See how many more members of family the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Sunnis have.  The more the better!

Already proved that through Hazrat Umm-e-Salima and Hazrat Ayesha that they were not included in Ahlebait read Sahiheein. 

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On 3/28/2022 at 2:19 PM, Debate follower said:

Assalama alaykum Power You have opened up so many questions that one will end up writing at least 2 volumes of history book!!!

It is humanly impossible for me to do so here.  Your questions are nothing new and have been discussed for centuries and dealt with very successfully, ALWAYS. I’ll attempt to answer them as briefly as possible with the time I can spare. I’ll not shy from answering any of your questions because these have been already debunked by eminent scholars of yesteryears.

But then they parted ways and have their own Imams and don’t believe in your 12 Imams list. Neither are they waiting eagerly for your 12th Imam or believe just like Sunnis that he ever existed.

When the 12er Shias got into power with coming of Safavids in Iran through sheer brutally and unmatched savagery, they settled scores with Zaydi and Ismailis and decimated them into submission. Please don’t pretend that there was/is buddy-buddy relationship between these three Shia sub-sects (5ers, 7ers, 12ers). Even same is the case between 12er Shia Usulis and Akbaris or between Wilayat al-Faqih and those who think that it is a blatant innovation and has no place in 12er Shi’ism.

I am posting Letter 58 from Nahjul Balagha in 2 parts

A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.

Part One

The whole thing began thus that we and the Syrians met in an encounter although we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet, and our message in Islam is the same. We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger nor did they want us to add any such thing. In fact, there was complete unity except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. We suggested to them to appease the situation by calming the temporary irritation and pacifying the people till matters settled down and stabilized when we would gain strength to put matters right. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

1) we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet
2) and our message in Islam is the same
3) We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger
4) nor did they want us to add any such thing
5) In fact, there was complete unity (in belief)
6) except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it.

The first 5 points clearly show that there were NO differences in Belief as Point 5 states: COMPLETE UNITY IN BELIEF!!!!!

Important Note to consider that IMAMATE is not mentioned at all– Core Belief of Shias!!!!!!!!!!!

Part Two

“They however said that they would settle it by war. Thus, they refused our offer and consequently war spread its wings and came to stay. Its flames rose and became strong. When the war had bitten us as well as them and pierced its talons into us as well as them, they accepted what we had proposed to them.

So, we agreed to what they suggested and hastened to meet their request. In this way, the plea became clear to them and no excuse was left to them. Now, whoever among them adheres to this will be saved by Allah from ruin, and whoever shows obstinacy and insistence (on wrong) is the reverser whose heart has been blinded by Allah and evils will encircle his head.”

In Part Two Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) stated his righteousness and uprightness and that his opponents were obstinate and were seeking war.

There were no Shias as a religious group and neither was there any Sunni group. All were Muslims following the Commands of the Blessed Quran and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  There is no claim to Shia IMAMATE from supposedly first Imam of Shia!!!!!!

The credence of Shi'ism is not  a phrase that was invented with passage of time, Rasullah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had used the phrase of Shia of Ali (عليه السلام) This is not contested by many classic and contemporary scholars in your own creed.  

The concept of 12 leaders is also held by Imam Bhukhari dose that make him Shia exaggerator?

Narrated by Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (S) saying, “There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world).” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, “All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraysh.” [Sahih Bukhari, Book No.89, Hadith No.329]

Many Shia perceived exaggeration are incorporated in Sunni Beliefs. For example belief in Wilayah the 12 Imams being pivot of guidance (Qutbs)  The twelve imams having Batini ( hidden Knowledge) and leadership. Ibn Hajar Makki recounts their status in Assawaiq ul muhrika.

And this is how Sunni scholars cope with the prophetic traditions in favor of "Shi’a of ‘Ali"! They say that they are the real Shi’a!  al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar

If you are not aware of your own hadith literature  its shows intellectual impropriety, and then to accuse others of exaggeration and invention.

 

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On 3/28/2022 at 8:30 AM, Debate follower said:

As I said this before, Islam is to obey and worship Allah Almighty only; and example and methodology set the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)!  Nothing can be added and deducted from this!!

This is main crux of Sunni Islam!!! So, it was always there from the day one.

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. Verse 59 Surah an-Nisa

[The believers are] those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things lawful for them and bad things forbidden for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains that were around them. Those who believe in him, honour and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him are successful. Verse 157 Surat al-A`raf

Read the above Blessed ayah very carefully and pay special attention to the highlighted parts – you will get the gist what Ahlul Sunnah is about.

 

Allah showed great kindness to the believers when He sent a Messenger to them from among themselves to recite His Signs to them, purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. Verse 164 Surah Al `Imran

He (Allah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. Verse 2 Al Jumm’a

Our Lord, raise in their midst a messenger from among themselves who recites to them Your verses and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom and purifies them… Verse 129 Al Baqarah

In the above ayahs:

The book refers to the Blessed Qur’an - The Wisdom refers to the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). He showed us how to carry out Allah Almighty’s commands by practically doing those actions.

 And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

1) And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, = The Noble Companions of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

2) and those who followed them in goodness = Ahlul Sunnah as follow the Blessed Companions in Goodness.

3) Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him

If you remove your tainted sectarian glasses and read the above, you will understand what Ahlul Sunnah is about – and not what your bigoted scholars and Zakirs who emotionally exaggerate stories to their captive crowd who readily digest all that is dished to them as a ‘gospel truth’.

The turmoil in early Muslims was due politics and vying each other for power. It was not due to religion as the Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha has clearly shown.

At least up to 200 years Muslims were not divided into sects but sort of political parties.

Struggle between Bani Umayyah and Bani Abbas (from Bani Hashim) and struggle within Shia Usulis and Akhbaris 12ers versus 5ers, 12ers versus 7ers – was more of power struggle. People struggling for power.  Nothing more nothing less.

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

In the above blessed verse lies your answer.

The learned Imams (may Allah reward them for their efforts) wrote books on Fiqh, History, Seerah & sayings of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to preserve for future generations.

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

 In the above blessed verse lies your answer. And a few paragraphs of my post above.

Out of interest when was the first shia hadith book compiled????? And what is its accuracy PASS RATE?

Those who followed the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) were always in majority from day one. Abu al-Ḥasan ʿAli ibn Ismaʿil al-Ashʿari (may Allah have Mercy on him) just compiled the Aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah to distinguish and differentiate it from those of Shi'ism and Mu'tazilism and Ahlul Bidah Wad-Dalalah (people of innovation and misguidance)

Great effort, but you have not proved iota of evidence of Ahlul Sunnah concept from any religious text. Providing blessed Quranic text then trying to incorporate your own deduction is borderline being pathetic and thats putting it mildly.

 Not all the companions were on haq, there was bloodshed, infighting, political conflicts, civil wars massacres of the Prophets Famliy the event of kerbala, all this happened with in 25-30 after the demise of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))  What went for you guys?? 

Clearly there was dissent very early stages of the Ummah after the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) You cant blame the 12vers because, according to your own historical Knowledge 12vers came very later on, you also stated there were no sects in the beginning,  So that just leave the companions of the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) who created fitna in the UMMAH!!

Its hard to swallow what i am stating but thats the truth,  Hence the Ummah going astray and creating different sects including Ahlul Sunnah is nothing more than truth. 

So it begs the Question, who were the fitna mongers? Muslims? 

 

 

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On 3/28/2022 at 2:36 PM, Debate follower said:

There you are wrong yet again. And you sound so confused and mixing things up.

Muʿtazilah were not in any wildest imagination biggest sect!!!! Where did get this tall story from? Let me guess, your scholars, Zakirs?

al-muʿtazilah,:  literally means “Those Who Withdraw, or Stand Apart”)

How can the biggest sect (using your terminology) withdraw from the main body???

Correct, Abul Hassan Al Ashari was a hardcore Mutazilite and abandoned it when he saw the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in his dream for several days commanding him to repudiate Mu’tazilah beliefs and stick to traditional beliefs. Rest of your post is merely what you have been told by your scholars and Zakirs.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

Do you know that 12er Shias adopted al-muʿtazilah beliefs as part and parcel of their aqeedah? i.e Giving rationality precedence over Wahi!!!!

There again you are exposing your ignorance of facts. Sunnis do not follow in religious matters those who are in power. They follow the distinguished and sincere scholars who are well versed in religious matters.

So, your guess unfortunately is way off the truth.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

Ash’ari and Muturidis are not sects but schools of Islamic theology and which defines the Aqeedah.

 

On 3/28/2022 at 2:36 PM, Debate follower said:

There you are wrong yet again. And you sound so confused and mixing things up.

Muʿtazilah were not in any wildest imagination biggest sect!!!! Where did get this tall story from? Let me guess, your scholars, Zakirs?

al-muʿtazilah,:  literally means “Those Who Withdraw, or Stand Apart”)

How can the biggest sect (using your terminology) withdraw from the main body???

Correct, Abul Hassan Al Ashari was a hardcore Mutazilite and abandoned it when he saw the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in his dream for several days commanding him to repudiate Mu’tazilah beliefs and stick to traditional beliefs. Rest of your post is merely what you have been told by your scholars and Zakirs.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

Do you know that 12er Shias adopted al-muʿtazilah beliefs as part and parcel of their aqeedah? i.e Giving rationality precedence over Wahi!!!!

There again you are exposing your ignorance of facts. Sunnis do not follow in religious matters those who are in power. They follow the distinguished and sincere scholars who are well versed in religious matters.

So, your guess unfortunately is way off the truth.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

Ash’ari and Muturidis are not sects but schools of Islamic theology and which defines the Aqeedah.

I see you are  trying  to tip toe around the issues of your creed,  that came into existence much later on. You accept there was turmoil in the ruling authority, which created divergent in Islam, Hence creation of sub sect in the Muslim Ummah. 

 

Therefore the idea of "Majority Being Right"  was an innovation created by the offshoot sects, I guess this concept of "Majority"  was to give some kind credibility to Ahlul Sunnah being the party of haq. 

 

Nevertheless this also creates  further problems in your school of thought. The idea having different schools of jurisprudence is evidently innovation thats not grounded in Quran and Hadith. 

 

Besides, their was major conflicts within this innovation, for example your own revered scholars had criticised  Abu Hanifia , and Abu Hanifia criticised Imam Shaafi, Imam Shaafi called Hanbalis Kaffirs.

 

Here some examples listed below:

 

Abu Hamid Ghazali in his book Manqul fi Ilmi'l-Usul says: "In fact Abu Hanifa distorted the religious code, made its way doubtful, changed its arrangement, and intermingled the laws in such a way that the code prescribed by the Holy Prophet was totally disfigured. One who does so deliberately and considers it lawful is an infidel. One who does it knowing it to be unlawful is a sinner."

Imam Ghazali says in his Mutahawwal, "There are many mistakes in Abu Hanifa's work. He had no knowledge of etymology, grammar, or hadith." He also writes, "Since he had no knowledge of hadith, he relied on his own conjecture.

The greatest fitnah in Baghdad was between Shaafi's and Hanbalis, because of which many people died. The Deputy of Baghdad tried to intervene, and the Shaafi representatives cried 'on what basis should we negotiate, and with who? A Resolution is when there is a difference between two parties over power. These people (Hanbalis) deem us kaffirs and we deem anyone that does not ascribe to our view to be a kaffir, hence peace between us is impossible". (Taken from Tabaqat al Janabal la bin Rajab Volume 1 page 20 - 21 & Wafay' at thu Ayan Volume 1 page 308).

 

Hanafi Fatwa cursing those that oppose Abu Hanifa

Maulana Abdul Hai in his book Fatwa page 155, chapter Taqleed wal ijtihaad states: Ibne Maalik had stated that on matters of Fiqh the people adhere to Abu Hanifa - may Allah curse be on those that have mocked his Fatwas This encompasses the other three Imams who condemned Abu Hanifa.

 

Imam Bukhari said : I asked Abdullah ibn Zubayr Al-Humaydi about Abu Hanifah and he said : A man who has not with him Sunan of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) nor from his companions in rites and others, how can he be trusted in Ahkam of Allah in inheritance, Zakah, Salah and things of Islam (“Tarikh Sagheer” p 156)

 

This will suffice for now. With the above abstracts there is major problems in your school of thought, not every  school of jurisprudence were on the same page. The ideological difference was vast hence Imams of your creed called each other terrible names non believers in some circumstances. 

 

What i have conveyed is only the tip of the iceberg, the disparity in your creed has no precedents, its an artificial construct, imposing interpretation that has very little related to reality in relation to true Islam. 

 

If i have some time before Ramzan i would like to talk about how Greek Philosophy and Jewish Parables had crept into Sunnis faith.  I'll leave you this snippet for now.

 

Dissecting the Tahāfut Al-Falāsifah as the Critism of Ghazali Against the Muslim’s Philosopy Jurnal Farabi Volume 13 Nomor 1 Juni 2016 ISSN 1907-0993 E ISSN 2442-8264 The conservative clerics who read the works of "esoteric" al-Ghazali such as Iḥyā’, Mishkāt al-Anwār, dan Kīmiyā’-yi Saʽādat, argued that his thoughts in these books has deviated from tradition Ash'ariyyah and a lot depends on the thinking of Muslim philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ikhwān al-Ṣafā’, if it is not even the Zoroastrian teachings. a cleric from the origin of maghrib, Māzarī al-Dhakī. 32 active in the campaign against Al- Ghazālī. The opponents of al-Ghazālī initially delivered a petition to Sanjar that the Hujjat al-Islam: “Don’t have any conviction of Islam, otherwise, he embraced the belief of the philosophers and the heretics (Falasifah va mulḥidān) and he filled all his books with their words (va number-yi kitābhā- yi khvīsh bi-sukhun-i Ishan mamzūj kard), He confounded the kufr (Kufr) and the sleaze (abāṭil) with the secrets of revelation. He called the true light of God and this is the belief of the Zoroastrians (madhhab-i majus), which teach the light and the darkness.” 33 Because it failed in this endeavor, they took another path. Scrape his past, then they issued accusations that al-Ghazālī had issued insulting words against abu hanifah in his work that he wrote in his youth, al-Mankhūlmin Ta'līqā 'Ilm al-Usul. Sanjar was an adherent of the Hanafi, this accusation was really serious and expected to ignite the anger of the sultan. But, this attempt was unsuccessful. 34 In this atmosphere he wrote Fayṣal al-Tafriqah And his intellectual autobiography, al-Munqidh min al-Ḍalāl. In the latter book, he offended the attack of the conservative clerics: 32 About this figure, and the activities in

 

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On 3/28/2022 at 2:51 PM, Debate follower said:

Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.)

1) “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject;

3) and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

4) If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.”  Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Refer to the point 3 in Nahjul Balagha the above:

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states that “and he who was absent has no right to reject;”

Again, you are displaying your lack of history.  When Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) that his time to leave this world was approaching, he starting consulting all the prominent Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) about his successor.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was consulted too. If you try to get all your information from Shia sources then you will only know one side of the history.

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was part of that committee.

That’s what Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated. This is he statement and mine. You take him to be infallible 1st Imam so, why don’t you believe him?????? Trust him, he always spoke the TRUTH.

“If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

You shouldn’t have problem with the stance of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). I don’t.

Phew! a lot of hard work!!

This is an extract from Nahjul Balagha :

During his silence, he indeed started cooperating with the first 2 Caliphs as consultant and did his best to decrease the damage as much as possible. If he had not done so, Islam would have been destroyed completely. Imam Ali said: "I tolerated those periods as if there was a thorn in my eye and a sharp bone stuck in my throat."(1) Islam was very young at that time (only 23 years old!) and division among Muslims could have totally removed Islam from the surface of the earth. So he kept silent.

Even though Imam Ali (عليه السلام) cooperated with companions, the above sermon from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) clearly shows he had endured immense pain in silence in the time of Abu Bakr Umar and uthmam

How could Imam Ali (عليه السلام) suggest that “If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

Please explain how do you reconcile the above abstract and with the sermon number 6.  

Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  Had endured immense pain for 23 years 

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On 3/29/2022 at 8:28 AM, Cool said:

Alhamdolillah, thanks for your prayers and kind words brother. May Almighty Lord increases your toufeeqat. 

Assalama ‘alaykum dear Brother, Jazak Allahu Khayran. May Allah Almighty bless you and your dear family with all that is good.

Thanks for your kind words, also I must add that I respect and appreciate your very polite mannerism. Be blessed always. May Allah Almighty accept your ibadaats in the Blessed month of Ramadan and reward you amply. I hope you had a great Eid with your dear family. Pls accept belated Eid Mubarak from me.

You Said:

Quote

 

Indeed I have noticed this sentence but this sentence is a factual information. She is the wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in this world, she died as wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and She will be recognized as wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in hereafter. Likewise the wives of Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام) & Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) will be recognized as wives of these two Prophets in hereafter too:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا

66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them.

If anyone see them and ask who these ladies are, who are burning in the hellfire, I am sure it will be said that these are the wives of two Prophets.

 

 

Indeed, wives of Prophets Nuh and Lut (peace be upon them both) were their wives in this world but NOT in the next world.

In Hereafter, All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum! I will prove this from the blessed Qur’an later in this post.

“Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi: When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

Let’s analyse the following statement:

“By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.”

Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) is giving testimony by taking oath on Allah Almighty that, as Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in this World she is the wife in the Hereafter.

1) If you were to ask any neutral person who doesn’t have any sectarian contamination, “where is Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) now at the present moment reading the above statement”.

I am certain the answer will be that at the present moment she is with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) just as she was in this World.

2) By stating that “By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.” Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) is extoling and acknowledging the high status of Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) as the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in this World and in the Hereafter.

Having said that (extoling and acknowledging the high status) Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) starts the next sentence with ‘BUT’ which means that after having praised her, he is going to fault her. That’s what he stated:

“But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)."

He is clearly warning the people that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) stance of coming out against Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is WRONG as Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was on the RIGHT. And that she must not be supported just because she is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

So, the test for the people is to choose to follow who is on the Right and not those who were on the WRONG (even though they have very close relationship with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

When Worldly relationships are negated in Hereafter

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

Surah Hud from verse 42 to verse 46

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Nuh called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers. verse 42 Surah Hud

He said: I will betake myself for refuge to a mountain that shall protect me from the water. Nuh said: There is no protector today from Allah's punishment but He Who has mercy; and a wave intervened between them, so he was of the drowned verse 43 Surah Hud

And it was said: O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said: Away with the unjust people verse 44 Surah Hud

And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges. verse 45 Surah Hud

Allah's answer is:

(Allah replied) “O Noah! He is certainly NOT of your family—he was entirely of unrighteous conduct. So do not ask Me about what you have no knowledge of! I warn you so you do not fall into ignorance.” -- verse 46 Surah Hud

So, it is a Divine Decree that any relationship in this World is annulled (ceases to exist) in the next World if the two ‘parties’ end up in opposite sides.

So, if someone’s spouse in this World ends up in hell in the Hereafter, he/she WON’T be counted as a spouse in the Hereafter.

Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir’s (may Allah be pleased with him) states that: 

“BY ALLAH! SHE IS THE WIFE OF YOUR PROPHET IN THIS WORLD AND IN THE HEREAFTER.”

Dear Brother, the above is so clear but I do understand your predicament, all your conscious life you have heard everything otherwise.

It is Stated in all hadith and history books that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) remorsefully regretted her role in Battle of the Camel and prayed always for forgiveness. 

Say: O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely, He is the Forgiving the Merciful Verse 53 az-Zumar

As for those who repent, mend their ways, and let the truth be known, they are the ones to whom I will turn ˹in forgiveness˺, for I am the Accepter of Repentance, Most Merciful. Verse 160 Surah al Baqarah

 Now about wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: (the verse you had posted above)

“Allah has made an example for those who are an unbelieving people: the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut. They were married to two of Our servants who were believers, but they betrayed* them and were not helped at all against Allah. They were told: ‘Enter the Fire along with all who enter it.’ (Quran, Surat at-Tahrim: 10)

* “Meaning, in the faith, they did not adhere to the faith sent through their husbands nor accepted their message. Therefore, all the intimate knowledge of their husbands neither helped them nor prevented punishment, hence Allah's statement.”

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So "wife in this world and in hereafter" doesn't mention anything specific about her. The ending sentence giving the conclusion, obeying her is not as obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). She appeared as symbol of disobedience, through her Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has tested the believers. Obviously believers are not those who have joined her, obeyed her and fought war against Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This act alone tantamount as they have fought war with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Of course, it mentions: “Wife in this World and in Hereafter” – She is where the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is now. A wife is always with the husband.

The Blessed Qur’an confirms that Conflict can take place between Believers

And if two groups of BELIEVERS fight each other, then make peace between them. But if one of them transgresses against the other, then fight against the transgressing group until they ˹are willing to˺ submit to the rule of Allah. If they do so, then make peace between both ˹groups˺ in all fairness and act justly. Surely Allah loves those who uphold justice. Verse 9 Al-Hujurat

Abu Bakrah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “This grandson of mine is a master. Perhaps Allah will reconcile two groups of Muslims through him.” Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2557

Narrated Al-Hasan Al-Basri: I heard Abu Bakr saying, "I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on the pulpit and Al-Hasan bin `Ali was by his side. The Prophet (ﷺ) was looking once at the people and once at Al-Hasan bin `Ali saying, 'This son of mine is a Saiyid (i.e. a noble) and may Allah make peace between two big groups of Muslims through him." Sahih al-Bukhari 2704

The Blessed Prophet peace be upon him says: “My son is a master, and Allah may use him to make peace between two parties of Muslims.” [Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book of "Afflictions," 6629]

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Obviously believers are not those who have joined her, obeyed her and fought war against Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This act alone tantamount as they have fought war with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

So, if your contention (above) is that those who fought against Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) are unbelievers, it is disproved by the blessed Qur’an and hadith (quoted above)

Allah Almighty has chosen the word ‘Believers’ and has qualified them as such – now you if dispute that you’ll be challenging Allah Almighty!!!!!!!!!

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Yes I am well aware of the history. But the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is clear in everytime as Quran has categorically mentioned:

قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ

Right path has been made distinct from the wrong. So I don't see any excuse of being driven in the fitna wave

 

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

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Infact we have some reports too from the books of Ahlul Sunnah which mentions that she at one time, was become so angry at Uthman that she called him "old fool" & "unbeliever".

History books are full of false accusations against the great people by their sectarian opponents to score cheap points.  Even lady Maryum bint Imran (may Allah be pleased with her) was lumped with worst accusations by the Jews of that time!!!

The link below addresses the false accusation pointed out by you.

http://www.chiite.fr/en/rebbutal_03.html

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On 3/29/2022 at 8:28 AM, Cool said:

Anyway, I am not going into further details because of the fear that I may hurt your emotions, I know how much you revere her. Out of your love and your care, I am no longer adding any further comment my dear brother. 

I just wanted to know how you understood the last sentence of the hadith you have quoted. 

May Almighty Lord grant you success in this world & in hereafter.

Wassalam!!

I really appreciate your gracious and polite gesture. In indeed, I and overwhelming Muslims revere and have utmost respect due to her being wife of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in this World and most importantly in the Hereafter which endless!

I’ll just give you a brief about myself, I was born and raised in a country where Shias are virtually non-existent.  At around age of 14/15 I came to know about Shias existence for the first time when I asked my dad why his accountant, (Uncle) Fida Hussein didn’t fast in Ramadan, I was told that he was an Ismaili Shia – (their imam has annulled fasting, 5 daily prayers and other main pillars of Islam for the convenience of his followers!!!)

Then, thanks to internet and YouTube I saw 12er Shia performing self-flagellation rituals in countries like Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and Pakistan. This was a great shock to me. I had never seen such gory scenes and I have never understood why they were inflicting such horrible pain on themselves by their own hands!!!!!!

Questions arise for the reason they are inflicting this pain upon themselves by own hands?

1) to feel the pain of those honourable noble souls? (may Allah be pleased be upon them and reward them with highest rank in the Hereafter as they stood for the Truth against the Tyrants and were martyred)

2) or is for the guilt they feel, that their forefathers invited those honourable noble souls and then disowned them and turned against them and let them be butchered by the Tyrants?

Moving forward: In the UK while studying in university, I befriended a 12er Shia family from Iraq. Their daughter was my colleague/classmate in the University doing the same subjects. She, I always address her as my Shia sister, needed a lot help in the course so we used to do joint-studies at her home. They are practicing 12er Shias. I always felt most welcome at their home. Their grandfather, a nice gentle soul, may Allah Almighty prolong his life with good health, used to always find time to talk with me about Shia – Sunni issues.  I was totally blank before this and this prompted me to read more and more. This is the first time I came to Shias don’t respect the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) of the Blessed prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) apart from few. And till then I was not aware that Shias have their own set of hadith books!!!!!

Thanks to internet and YouTube one doesn’t need to buy books. I have watched a lot of debates on the Net and read a lot from both sources. Even those of Yasser Kabeeth and Hassan Allahyar – a few from most Shia virulent polemicists.

So, I am aware of all the horrible things that have been said and written in Shia hadith, history books and narrated by Shia Zakireen, especially in Muharram, about Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her).

Shia scholars, likes of Yasser Kabeeth and Hassan Allahyar have crossed all limits – I shudder to write what they have said.  And all this is available on the YouTube - maybe you are aware of it.  They are not alone as they are quite popular and have a big following among Shia scholars and general folk.

So, I am well aware of 12er Shias have in their literature. Just few examples)

1) about poisoning the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

2) riding on donkey and preventing Imam Hassan’s (may Allah be pleased be upon him) burial next to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as he had requested.
3) Horrible treatment that Noble Shaikhain (Abu Bakr and Umar) and their daughters who are wives of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) (Aisha and Hafsa) (may Allah be pleased them all) awaits them at the hands the 12th Imam etc etc.

The Blessed Qur’an States:
Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourableSurah an-Nur Ayah 26

So, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will NEVER marry lady who is not Pure. Case closed.

I have been coming to Shiachat on and off to follow the debates - hence when I signed on as Debate Follower. My attention was to post once in a while but to my horror I see that I have been sucked into long debate. :( :)

And thanks for very sincere and kind words in the end. Much appreciated. May Allah Almighty bless you and your dear family with the best of both worlds – May it be so with Allah Almighty’s Grace.

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On 3/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I showed you. Now stop being a child and keep repeating same things. Talk about things which matter.

Salaams - You showed me nothing, and please refrain from patronising me. Buddy, you have not reached that level yet.

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How pitiful is that you ignored Quran which says that wives of the earlier Prophets were on wrong too. Then you quote a hadith in which you say that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) confused this ummah regarding matter between Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Ayesha. This is huge blasphemy against Allah (عزّ وجلّ) who says Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not lead anyone astray. Your points are weak because they are not in harmony with Quran.

All of your rhetoric is rejected by narrations of Hazrat Umm-e-Salimma and Hazrat Ayesha that they were not among Ahlebait (عليه السلام). You cannot disagree with them or your fails.

 

Please read my response to brother Cool. You’ll get your answers and will be solid and in harmony with the Blessed Qur’an.

You can reject whatever you want due to your sectarian restraints. This doesn’t affect the Truth at all.  Truth stands out clear from error and your rejection is meaningless however much you protest to your heart’s content.

The Blessed ayahs concerned with Purity are directly addressing the Noble wives (may Allah be pleased them) of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Then only, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took Hz. Ali, Hz. Fatimah, Hz. Hassan and Hz. Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them) under his cloak and recited these blessed ayahs and prayed for these Noble personalities to be blessed by the ayahs just as the noble wives were.

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Wonderful this is your answer, how do you apply this meaning to this world while we know there is mention of pure wives in heaven too.

The Messenger has cried, “O my Lord! My people have indeed received this Quran with neglect.” 30 al Furqan

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. 26 an-Nur

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is the Best of Creation and the Purest of the pure. So, he will never do anything which go against the Qur’an – The Blessed Qur’an is talking about life in this World.

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Prophets never make mistakes but they don't go against their sunnah too that is being generous in helping others. Marrying someone's daughter is relieving himself of great burden. It does not mean that if doing someone Ahsan results in bad is your fault.

How right you are, indeed the Prophets (peace be upon them) never make mistakes and they don’t go against their Sunnah. And neither will they go against the commands of Allah Almighty.

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. 26 an-Nur

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will never go against the Qur’an – So, all his wives (may Allah be pleased with them) are ‘women of purity’.

You cannot accuse the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) of going against the Qur’an. If you do, then you are committing a great blasphemy against him. And the answer is already in the verse quoted above are not affected by what people say”.

The Prophet after all, would not knowingly violate the Quran and marry someone who is impure. Since the Prophet was purest of the pure, he must only marry the pure.

 

إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلتَّوَّبِينَ وَيُحِبُّ ٱلْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ

Surely Allah loves the repentant and the purified.

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Prophet Noah married a lady which was not obedient so it was that lady's fault and Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP) married Hazrat Ayesha and stopped her to leave house but she went to war against Imam Ali. It's not Prophet's fault but Hazrat Ayesha's.

There you go. Now, you are comparing apples with oranges.  The wives of Prophets Noah & Lut (peace be upon them) were UNBELIEVERS and were TRAITORS against their husbands.

Allah sets forth an example for the disbelievers: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. Each was married to one of Our righteous servants, yet betrayed them. So, their husbands were of no benefit to them against Allah whatsoever. Both were told, “Enter the Fire, along with the others!” Verse 10 Surah at-Tahrim

I have explained in detail in response to brother Cool in my response to him, just a few posts back.

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On 3/29/2022 at 11:29 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I am not surprised by your obstinate behavior. Both means they are pure from sins. 

Brother, my advice to you is to look in the mirror and smile, you’ll see the one who is being obstinate!

Let’s try once again.

infallible                             maesum min alkhata      معصوم من الخطأ

Purity                                   ṭahāra(h)                        طهارة

Purity and infallibility are not one and same in meaning.

Purity means: piousness, saintliness, righteousness, uprightness, blessedness etc. etc. but NEVER INFALLIBLE!!!

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourableSurah an-Nur Ayah 26

This has nothing to do with infallibility.  Read the Ayah of the Blessed Qur’an (quoted below).

It clearly says, “Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, people of the household” – So the ‘impurity’ was there to start with. (This is to do with spiritual purity).

 “and to purify you to the utmost degree of purity” – It clearly means that Allah Almighty wants to purify to the utmost degree of purity – by purifying thoroughly by removing the ‘impurity.’

This completely goes against your (Shia) ideology – You claim infallibility for your Imams!

Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, people of the household, and to purify you to the utmost degree of purity. 33 al-Ahzab

That’s why Shias uses the following terminology ‘al-Maʿṣūmūn’ and not ‘mutahirin’ (purified)

The Fourteen Infallibles (Arabic: ٱلْمَعْصُومُون ٱلْأَرْبَعَة عَشَر, al-Maʿṣūmūn al-ʾArbaʿah ʿAšar; Persian: چهارده معصومین, Čahârdah Ma'sūmīn)

I hope now I won’t have to repeat the difference between Infallible and Purified.

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If you read that khutba you must have noticed that he talks about what makes a great majority, it is Quran. And, thus says that if Quran drives one group to other, they should follow Quran be part of majority. Like I said that without Quran and an Imam, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not take majority as righteous. A just soul before Allah is a majority like was said about Hazrat Abdul Mutallib that He was a ummah by Prophet.

 

Now, let’s refer to Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha (quoted below)

Certainly, you are the most evil of all persons and are those whom Satan has put on his lines and thrown out into his wayless land. With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

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Like I said that without Quran and an Imam,

This is what you are stating but NOT what Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is stating in his sermon.

You Said:

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Rest of your points are repetitions.

 

Many a times the points have to be repeated to drive the point home to those who close their minds to the Truth due to their sectarian demands.

Did you notice the Blessed Qur’an repeats many points again and again to drive the point home?

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Already proved that through Hazrat Umm-e-Salima and Hazrat Ayesha that they were not included in Ahlebait read Sahiheein.


 

 

You have only proved it to yourself – ONLY due to your sectarian compulsions – nothing else.

قَالُواْ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ رَحْمَتُ اللّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ

They said: Do you wonder at Allah’s bidding? The mercy of Allah and His blessings are on you, O people of the house (ahlebayt), surely, He is Praised, Glorious. Verse 73 Surah Hud)

The Blessed Qur’an clearly addresses the wife of Hz. Ibrahim (peace be upon him) as Ahlul Bayt. Yet you have problem with this!!

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On 3/29/2022 at 8:20 PM, power said:

The credence of Shi'ism is not  a phrase that was invented with passage of time, Rasullah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had used the phrase of Shia of Ali (عليه السلام) This is not contested by many classic and contemporary scholars in your own creed.

Assalama alaykum. You have asked so many questions.  Well, I am going to respond to all of them. Just one friendly request, please don’t throw in so many questions in one go. Answers are there but does take a lot time (& effort) to respond.  Now to answer your point:

Now, let’s refer to Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha: (Written by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) to the people of various localities describing what took place between him and the people of Siffin)

The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated the differences between him and his opponents were not on basis of Faith but rather political! Note that he never brought up his Divine Appointment of IMAMATE which is the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF of the Shia.

* we had common faith in one Allah
* in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household)
and on the same principles and canons of religion

And

* So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in
* and they did not want us to change our faith

And

Both of us were united on these principles.
* The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.
* They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it.

So, you can clearly see that there was not an iota of difference in beliefs.

The difference was in dealing with the brutal assassination of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him). Nothing more nothing less.

Shiʿatu ʿAli was a term for partisans of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)

Shiʿatu Mua’wiyah

After peace treaty between Imam Hassan ibn Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and Mu’awiyah bin Abi Sufyan this two terminologies became obsolete. But Shiʿatu ʿAli was revived later by Hashemites (Bani Abbas and Alids) as rallying point.

On 3/29/2022 at 8:20 PM, power said:

The concept of 12 leaders is also held by Imam Bhukhari dose that make him Shia exaggerator?

No, it doesn’t.  He never believed in Shia version of imamate. He believed in al-Khilafah ar-Rasidah of first four Khalifs (may Allah be pleased with them).  Refer to hadith you have quoted below:

On 3/29/2022 at 8:20 PM, power said:

Narrated by Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (S) saying, “There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world).” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, “All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraysh.” [Sahih Bukhari, Book No.89, Hadith No.329]

You must acknowledge that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) always was very precise in the words he chose. He never said that the 12 Khalifs will be from his family (Hashemites) but said that the 12 Khaleefs will be from Quraysh.

This clearly shows Khalafah is not the inheritance of his family. He said that Imam Mahdi will (may Allah be pleased with him) be from him family. And that his name will same at that of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) like Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Whereas your 12th Imam’s name is Muhammad ibn Hassan Al Asakari.

On 3/29/2022 at 8:20 PM, power said:

Many Shia perceived exaggeration are incorporated in Sunni Beliefs. For example belief in Wilayah the 12 Imams being pivot of guidance (Qutbs)  The twelve imams having Batini ( hidden Knowledge) and leadership. Ibn Hajar Makki recounts their status in Assawaiq ul muhrika.

And this is how Sunni scholars cope with the prophetic traditions in favor of "Shi’a of ‘Ali"! They say that they are the real Shi’a!  al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar

If you are not aware of your own hadith literature  its shows intellectual impropriety, and then to accuse others of exaggeration and invention.

Shia exaggerated beliefs have at times influenced Sufi leaning Sunnis where general education is at low level. As education is spreading this influence is being eroded. In Sha Allah soon within a generation or so will vanish.

Belief in Qutbs is a Sufi concept – This is not Sunni belief. You are mixing up things.

I have never claimed to be a scholar but am just a layman and I don’t have the time to read all the books that are out there.

I am glad that you mentioned the book - Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah – written by great Islamic scholar Shaikh Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami (may Allah have mercy upon him and reward him amply)

– In fact, this book is against the Shia beliefs and exposes their beliefs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah is an Islamic book written by the Muslim scholar Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, it covers many areas such as how to send greetings upon the Prophet Muhammad. The book also discusses the place of Shia'ism as a sect and attempts to expose and refute their claims.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/As-Sawaiq-al-Muhriqah-Radd-al-Bida-az-Zandaqah/dp/B00KXC4VSM

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, power said:

Great effort, but you have not proved iota of evidence of Ahlul Sunnah concept from any religious text. Providing blessed Quranic text then trying to incorporate your own deduction is borderline being pathetic and thats putting it mildly.

The thing that is pathetic and pitiful is that you are debating and yet not reading anything. The concept of Ahlul Sunnah is from the Qur’an and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him)

Just to give you few very clear-cut, unambiguous and explicit from many blessed ayahs from the Blessed Qur’an commanding Muslims to follow the Qur’an and the Way (Sunnah) of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

"That what the Messenger brings you and leave what he forbids you ... " Verse:7 Surah al-Hashr

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they Verse 69 Surah an-Nisa

And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. Verse 64 Surah an-Nisa

Certainly, you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much Verse 21 Surah al-Ahzab

Note: The few ayahs from many are very clear-cut, unambiguous and explicit – That we have to Obey Allah Almighty and follow the blessed Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) - so no need of your supposedly deductions.

From the following ayah of the blessed Qur’an we have to FOLLOW early Muhajiroun and Ansar in righteousness and with whom Allah Almighty is PLEASED with and that they are PLEASED with Him!

 It is the first of the early Muhajiroun (emigrants) and Ansar (supporters), as well as those who followed them in righteousness, with whom God is very pleased, and they are pleased with Him. He has prepared Gardens with flowing rivers for them, where they will stay forever. This is the ultimate victory. Verse 100 at-Taubah

At times the TRUTH is so blindingly bright that those with sectarian vision will close their eyes to it.

If I were to ask you to prove imamate from the blessed Qur’an – see how you jump to deductions as there is no clear-cut, unambiguous and explicit PROOF OF IT in the BLESSED Qur’an – you will have to employ all sorts of deductions and verbal gymnastics to prove the unprovable!!!!!

Quranic verses proving the following of Ahlul Bayt

In the link below see how the Shia scholarship is struggling miserably to prove from Qur’an with a clear-cut verses about following Ahlul Bayt exclusively.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-9-quranic-verses-proving-following-ahlul

Whereas I had given you the following verse undoubtedly prove about following the early Muhajiroun (emigrants) and Ansar (supporters) as well as those who followed them in righteousness, with whom Allah is very pleased, and they are pleased with Him.

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, power said:

Not all the companions were on haq, there was bloodshed, infighting, political conflicts, civil wars massacres of the Prophets Famliy the event of kerbala, all this happened with in 25-30 after the demise of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))  What went for you guys?? 

I agree with you as do all Sunnis that all Companions are not at same level. The Blessed Qur’an confirms this. I have this ayah earlier.

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, power said:

Clearly there was dissent very early stages of the Ummah after the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) You cant blame the 12vers because, according to your own historical Knowledge 12vers came very later on, you also stated there were no sects in the beginning,  So that just leave the companions of the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) who created fitna in the UMMAH!!

 

It is the first of the early Muhajiroun (emigrants) and Ansar (supporters), as well as those who followed them in righteousness, with whom God is very pleased, and they are pleased with Him. He has prepared Gardens with flowing rivers for them, where they will stay forever. This is the ultimate victory. 100 at-Taubah

Those who entered Islam at the beginning are at the topmost and those who entered later or after Conquest of Makkah have much lower rank.

Now, let’s refer to Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha: (Written by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) to the people of various localities describing what took place between him and the people of Siffin)

The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated the differences between him and his opponents were not on basis principles of Faith but rather political!

* we had common faith in one Allah

* in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household)

* and on the same principles and canons of religion

And

* So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in

* and they did not want us to change our faith

And

* Both of us were united on these principles.

* The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.

* They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it.

It can clearly be seen that there was no split in principles of faith. Nobody believed in Imamate and neither Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) ever mentioned it.

 

I just proved to you from very words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) that there was no disunity in Islam up to the murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) brutal murder by miscreants from Egypt and that caused the confusion and fitnah.

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

 

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On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, power said:

Its hard to swallow what i am stating but thats the truth,  Hence the Ummah going astray and creating different sects including Ahlul Sunnah is nothing more than truth. 

It is hard to swallow only in myopic Shia-view of Islamic history.

In fact, Islamic history is history of Mainstream Muslims that is Ahlul Sunnah.  Go and read any history book on Islam or Muslims – it’ll always devout 95% on Sunni Islamic history and 5% to the rest. 

Shia will be mentioned in the last chapters under the title “Other sects is Islam.”

Islam is to believe in and follow the commands of the Words of Allah Almighty in form of the Blessed Qur’an and to follow the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him).

Islam is not limited to a few selected members of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him).

Mainstream of a body always remains and it is the sects that break off.  The best example I can give you is that of a river.  The main body of river carries the name of the river. It is the distributaries of the river that branch off and they never carry the name of main river!!!!

If you read any book on Islamic history, you won’t fail to notice that it is actually history of Ahlul Sunnah.

Shia Islam will always be mentioned in the footnotes or in appendix of the book under the heading ‘Sects in Islam’ along with other sects.

The following hadith describes the situation perfectly:  The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him) had foretold about sects in Islam.

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (Verse 153 al-An’am) Musnad Aḥmad 4423

The Blessed Qur’an says the same:

But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. Verse 53 Surah Al Mumin’un

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, power said:

So it begs the Question, who were the fitna mongers? Muslims? 

Fitna mongers exist in all groups without exception in all ages. Have you heard the phrase, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely? 

Read the history:

When Muslims were defending Islam against Crusaders, check out who was cooperating with the Crusaders?

When Muslims were defending Islam against Mongolian Hordes, check out who was cooperating with the Mongols?

When Uthmaniyah Khilafah was fighting against the European Empires in the borders of present-day Germany to protect Islamic lands, check out who was back-stabbing them to help out the European Powers?

If you do so honestly, you’ll get your answer. And it will be quite embarrassing for you. Got the hint?

On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

I see you are  trying  to tip toe around the issues of your creed,  that came into existence much later on. You accept there was turmoil in the ruling authority, which created divergent in Islam, Hence creation of sub sect in the Muslim Ummah. 

Why do I need to tiptoe around the issues of my creed? ‘My creed’ didn’t need to come into existence as it was always there from day one!

1) The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) elected Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) to lead the Muslims in prayers when he was unwell to lead. Consequently, he was chosen to lead the Ummah.

2) We follow the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him)

On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

Therefore the idea of "Majority Being Right"  was an innovation created by the offshoot sects, I guess this concept of "Majority"  was to give some kind credibility to Ahlul Sunnah being the party of haq. 

It is not an innovation, statement of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) confirms this.

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolfSermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

 Shias have NEVER been that ‘Great Majority’. 12er Shias only came in prominence 1500CE onwards when Safavids brutally and savagery converted populations of Azerbaijan, Iran and to some extent Iraq from Sunni to 12er Shia. Even now, Shias are 10-15% of Muslim population worldwide at the most.

On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

Nevertheless this also creates  further problems in your school of thought. The idea having different schools of jurisprudence is evidently innovation thats not grounded in Quran and Hadith. 

This is undoubtedly a great joke. It would be better for you to read from Sunni sites about Sunni beliefs and refrain from vitriolic anti-Sunni Shia sites. (My sincere advice to you).

Having different schools of jurisprudence is not an innovation. Simple, don’t 12er Shia scholars and Marjaa’ differ in their opinions on secondary issues?

Just to give you 2 examples.

1) Wilayat al-faqihIt is controversial among traditional 12er Shias but Iran being dominant is pushing it through due it’s ‘Muscle Power’! There are enough 12ers who disagree and take it to be innovation.

2) Tatbir – See differences among most prominent Shia scholars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatbir

In the Difference between Marjaa’ & Wali Faqi’s Opinions What Should I Do?

http://ijtihadnet.com/in-the-difference-between-marja-wali-faqis-opinions-what-should-i-do/

On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

Besides, their was major conflicts within this innovation, for example your own revered scholars had criticised  Abu Hanifia , and Abu Hanifia criticised Imam Shaafi, Imam Shaafi called Hanbalis Kaffirs.

 

Here some examples listed below:

 

Abu Hamid Ghazali in his book Manqul fi Ilmi'l-Usul says: "In fact Abu Hanifa distorted the religious code, made its way doubtful, changed its arrangement, and intermingled the laws in such a way that the code prescribed by the Holy Prophet was totally disfigured. One who does so deliberately and considers it lawful is an infidel. One who does it knowing it to be unlawful is a sinner."

Imam Ghazali says in his Mutahawwal, "There are many mistakes in Abu Hanifa's work. He had no knowledge of etymology, grammar, or hadith." He also writes, "Since he had no knowledge of hadith, he relied on his own conjecture.

The greatest fitnah in Baghdad was between Shaafi's and Hanbalis, because of which many people died. The Deputy of Baghdad tried to intervene, and the Shaafi representatives cried 'on what basis should we negotiate, and with who? A Resolution is when there is a difference between two parties over power. These people (Hanbalis) deem us kaffirs and we deem anyone that does not ascribe to our view to be a kaffir, hence peace between us is impossible". (Taken from Tabaqat al Janabal la bin Rajab Volume 1 page 20 - 21 & Wafay' at thu Ayan Volume 1 page 308).

 

Hanafi Fatwa cursing those that oppose Abu Hanifa

Maulana Abdul Hai in his book Fatwa page 155, chapter Taqleed wal ijtihaad states: Ibne Maalik had stated that on matters of Fiqh the people adhere to Abu Hanifa - may Allah curse be on those that have mocked his Fatwas This encompasses the other three Imams who condemned Abu Hanifa.

 

Imam Bukhari said : I asked Abdullah ibn Zubayr Al-Humaydi about Abu Hanifah and he said : A man who has not with him Sunan of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) nor from his companions in rites and others, how can he be trusted in Ahkam of Allah in inheritance, Zakah, Salah and things of Islam (“Tarikh Sagheer” p 156)

 

This will suffice for now. With the above abstracts there is major problems in your school of thought, not every  school of jurisprudence were on the same page. The ideological difference was vast hence Imams of your creed called each other terrible names non believers in some circumstances. 

It is human nature to differ with each other and scholars are not immune to this. At times the followers of scholars get overzealous and cause disturbances.

I wish you would spend more time looking at your own history than to see over the fence to worry about others.

Akhbaris and Usulis

al-Shaykh Ja'far al-Najafi Kashif al-Ghita' Usuli scholar vs Mirza Muhamamd al-Akhbari

Al-Wahid al-Bihbahani  usuli vs al-Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani akhbari scholar

Muhammad Amin al-Astarabadi, the founder of Akhbarism - first to criticize the method of usul al-fiqh and ijtihad,

Read about Akhbari and how Usuli Shias fought them off by all and any means.

 https://en.wikishia.net/view/Akhbaris

 

Further reading for you – This is from Shiachat

How did the Usulis Defeat the Akhbari Position of Not Applying the Intellect to the Texts...?

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067641-how-did-the-usulis-defeat-the-akhbari-position-of-not-applying-the-intellect-to-the-texts/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/uploads/documents/dispute_nature2.pdf

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On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

What i have conveyed is only the tip of the iceberg, the disparity in your creed has no precedents, its an artificial construct, imposing interpretation that has very little related to reality in relation to true Islam. 

This is coming from a Shia so it is expected, no surprise.  Allah Almighty Will never support those who undermine His True Religion.

I am quoting myself from some post on this board:

 

Please go and refer to history: And see who Allah Almighty has Blessed!

1) From Believers (Muslims), who ruled the Islamic World? And who were always the dominant in the Islamic World?

2) Who conquered lands to add to the Islamic World and spread the message of Islam there, from Spain in the West as the World known at that time? From Central Asia in the North and North, West and East Africa?

3) Who brought the Persian and Roman Empires to their knees and introduced Islam in these lands?

4) Who travelled to Far East for trade and Dawah to spread the Message of Islam?

5) Who defended the Islamic World from 2 -3 centuries onslaught from collective forces from Europe in form of Crusades?

6) Who fought off the marauding and plundering the savage Mongols?

7) Who have been custodians of Makkah Al Mukkarmah (where rituals of Hajj are performed), Madinah Al Munawarah (where the Believers can go and pay their profound respects to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and just take a steps to the right to pay respects to his most close Companions (my Allah be pleased with them both) and Bait Al Muqadas (Jerusalam) – the three holy sites in Islam – for most of the time since advent of Islam?

If, you know the World history well and are fair then you should get to know who ruled the Islamic World. Shias generally and 12ers in particular are just a footnote in Islamic History and that too is based around Iraq and Iran and the surroundings until around 1980s.

Shia Islam is very localised around Iran and Iraq! If one was to draw a circle of 1500 miles radius from Qom or Najaf, it will net 95% of all Shias – and 5% in other places are mostly emigrants from these areas!

On 3/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, power said:

If i have some time before Ramzan i would like to talk about how Greek Philosophy and Jewish Parables had crept into Sunnis faith.  I'll leave you this snippet for now.

Dissecting the Tahāfut Al-Falāsifah as the Critism of Ghazali Against the Muslim’s Philosopy Jurnal Farabi Volume 13 Nomor 1 Juni 2016 ISSN 1907-0993 E ISSN 2442-8264 The conservative clerics who read the works of "esoteric" al-Ghazali such as Iḥyā’, Mishkāt al-Anwār, dan Kīmiyā’-yi Saʽādat, argued that his thoughts in these books has deviated from tradition Ash'ariyyah and a lot depends on the thinking of Muslim philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ikhwān al-Ṣafā’, if it is not even the Zoroastrian teachings. a cleric from the origin of maghrib, Māzarī al-Dhakī. 32 active in the campaign against Al- Ghazālī. The opponents of al-Ghazālī initially delivered a petition to Sanjar that the Hujjat al-Islam: “Don’t have any conviction of Islam, otherwise, he embraced the belief of the philosophers and the heretics (Falasifah va mulḥidān) and he filled all his books with their words (va number-yi kitābhā- yi khvīsh bi-sukhun-i Ishan mamzūj kard), He confounded the kufr (Kufr) and the sleaze (abāṭil) with the secrets of revelation. He called the true light of God and this is the belief of the Zoroastrians (madhhab-i majus), which teach the light and the darkness.” 33 Because it failed in this endeavor, they took another path. Scrape his past, then they issued accusations that al-Ghazālī had issued insulting words against abu hanifah in his work that he wrote in his youth, al-Mankhūlmin Ta'līqā 'Ilm al-Usul. Sanjar was an adherent of the Hanafi, this accusation was really serious and expected to ignite the anger of the sultan. But, this attempt was unsuccessful. 34 In this atmosphere he wrote Fayṣal al-Tafriqah And his intellectual autobiography, al-Munqidh min al-Ḍalāl. In the latter book, he offended the attack of the conservative clerics: 32 About this figure, and the activities in

I don’t see the point of you posting this – You should at least have given the link of the site you got it from.

I have seen it.

Google this: - Dissecting the Tahāfut Al-Falāsifah as the Critism of Ghazali ... https://journal.iaingorontalo.ac.id › downloadPDF

Also see the following and see how 12er Shias have adopted foreign rituals!!!!!

Passion of the Christ drama 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsMDldJN4FA

Wintershall Passion of Jesus Livestream 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjUKiQXE2Vs

Ta’zieh, the Passion Play in Practice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD8TG7S2QTs

The ritual dramatic art of Ta'zīye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtMIjHteW9c

Self-flagellationIn Jewish Christian and Shia traditions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-flagellation

Fire-jumping and eating 'ash' — let's ring in the New Year, Persian-style

https://theworld.org/stories/2014-03-21/fire-jumping-and-eating-ash-lets-ring-new-year-persian-style

Shia Muslims mark Ashura

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2010/dec/16/ashura-shia-muslims-gallery

Now, you see who is following rituals of other religions

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On 3/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, power said:

This is an extract from Nahjul Balagha :

During his silence, he indeed started cooperating with the first 2 Caliphs as consultant and did his best to decrease the damage as much as possible. If he had not done so, Islam would have been destroyed completely. Imam Ali said: "I tolerated those periods as if there was a thorn in my eye and a sharp bone stuck in my throat."(1) Islam was very young at that time (only 23 years old!) and division among Muslims could have totally removed Islam from the surface of the earth. So he kept silent.

Islam is religion sent by Allah Almighty and He has taken upon Himself to protect it and make it dominate all other religions.  

“It is he (Allah) who has sent his Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with guidance and the religion of truth, in order for it to be dominant over all other religions, even though the Mushrikoon (disbelievers) hate it.” Verse 33 Surah at-Tawbah

It is He Who has sent His Messenger forth with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it triumph over every religion, even though the idolaters may be averse. Verse 9 Surah as-Saff

It is He Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may exalt it above every other religion. Allah suffices as Witness. Verse 28 Surah al-Fath (Victory)

 The messenger Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not leave a house made of mud or hair, but will make this religion enter it, while bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam); might with which Allah elevates Islam (and its people), and disgrace with which Allah humiliates disbelief (and its people).” (Musnad al-Imaam Ahmad)

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6 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

In fact, Islamic history is history of Mainstream Muslims that is Ahlul Sunnah.  Go and read any history book on Islam or Muslims – it’ll always devout 95% on Sunni Islamic history and 5% to the rest. 

 

Shows an extremely poor breadth of reading around the development of Islamic thought. 

 

8 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

When Muslims were defending Islam against Crusaders, check out who was cooperating with the Crusaders?

When Muslims were defending Islam against Mongolian Hordes, check out who was cooperating with the Mongols?

When Uthmaniyah Khilafah was fighting against the European Empires in the borders of present-day Germany to protect Islamic lands, check out who was back-stabbing them to help out the European Powers?

Salah Al-Din, the great defender of Islam against the crusaders, drank alcohol and killed Muslim scholars (see Suhrawardi).

The (latter) Ottomans collaborated with the Nazis and alienated their subjects by centralising power and restricting it along ethnic lines.

 

Your arguments on the majority are a waste of time. There is no monolithic Sunni 'sect'. There is a beautiful, colourful Islamic canvas of ideas with a broad spectrum of beliefs - this includes the Shia. There is no real majority, and besides it's very well documented that scholars often, and still do, artificially attempt to find consensus so as not to violate the concept of Ijmaa'.

 

I won't bother reading/replying to the rest of your drivel because anything other than the most superficial and cursory reading of history would highlight how misguided and poor your arguments are. 

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On 3/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, power said:

Even though Imam Ali (عليه السلام) cooperated with companions, the above sermon from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) clearly shows he had endured immense pain in silence in the time of Abu Bakr Umar and uthmam

At-Taghut: Whatever is worshipped besides Allah, the Mighty and Majestic; and every leader of misguidance is a taghut.” -  Lisān al-ʿArab 8/444.

Shias take the first three Khalifs (Hz. Abu Bakr Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman - may Allah be pleased with them) as Tawagheet (singular Taghut) Those who have usurped Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) Divine appointment as Successor to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and as Imam of Muslim Ummah.
If so, Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is duty bound not to cooperate with those ‘rebelled’ against Allah Almighty’s command.  Shias also believe that they also changed the principles of Islam.

Yet Shias claim that Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) co-operated with the 3 Tawagheet even though Islam was being changed and suffered immense pain in silence.

The above cannot be true as it goes the Command of Allah Almighty – Which is to fight against Tawagheet as they are allies of Satan.

Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of ṭaghut. So, fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak. Verse 76 An-Nisa

Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) will never ever do this.

Tariq ibn Shihab reported: A man asked the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, “What is the best jihad?” The Prophet said, “A word of truth in front of a tyrannical ruler.” Musnad Aḥmad 18449

There is also authentic hadith advocating for pro-active action in stopping evil or anything against Will of Allah Almighty.

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever among you sees evil, let him change it with his hand. If he is unable to do so, then with his tongue. If he is unable to do so, then with his heart, and that is the weakest level of faith.”  Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 49

Shia stance that Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) unwillingly co-operated with Hz. Abu Bakr Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman – (may Allah be pleased with them) goes against his personality.  This implies that he was willing to compromise Islamic principles. Sunni Muslims will never agree to this. He was foremost of Muslims, bravest of the brave, wisest of the wise.

Shia stance is that he was trying to protect Islam by co-operating with those who went against commands of Allah Almighty which the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had conveyed on Ghadeer Khumm.

This makes no sense. If anything is wrong the best thing to do is to stop it straight away and not let rot set in. As the famous sayings go: “A stitch in time saves nine.” “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Shouldn’t the Fitnah have been obliterated/nipped in the bud right on the first day when it appeared?

Divinely appointed Imam is not supposed to stand aside and helplessly watch the plundering of their Divinely bestowed inheritance.

He would have followed the illustrious example of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and fought for his cause not caring for the consequences. Following is reply of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) when his dear Uncle had requested him mute down his opposition to the Mushrikeens!

“By Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand on condition that I abandoned this course, I would not abandon it until Allah has made it victorious, or I perish therein.”" 

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) would have done the same, no doubt about this.

The Sermon 3 (Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah) * should have been said just after the funeral of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) if he was Divinely Ordained.

Note also that he never recalled the event of Khum Ghadeer. Never mentioned his Divine Appointment. This is the oft-repeated mantra by our Shia brethren (sisters included) as the strongest point in the Divine Appointment.

 As per Shia beliefs the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had conveyed the message and Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is duty bound to implement it come what may, trusting that Allah Almighty will protect him just as Allah Almighty had promised to protect the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Now this blessed Surah comes into effect.

O Messenger! Convey everything revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not, then you have not delivered His message. Allah will ˹certainly˺ protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the people who disbelieve. Verse 67 Al-Maida

Remember, that he is the father of the great Islamic hero, Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) who never compromised with tyrannic forces and paid the ultimate sacrifice not only with his own life but that of his very dear ones and most loyal supporters.

Divinely appointed Imam is not supposed to stand aside and watch helplessly the plundering of his Divinely bestowed inheritance. And part-timely co-operating with them in their affairs of State management!!!!!!!!

On 3/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, power said:

How could Imam Ali (عليه السلام) suggest that “If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

 

You are asking me this question?!!!!? It is in one of your most authentic books. Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) not only suggested it but stated it. You are asking me to answer for him?

Sorry I cannot speak for him.  You seem to be questioning him, do you doubt him?

This is his statement!!! Accept it and don’t doubt him. In fact, if read it in Arabic, he has used the word IMAM for the 3 first Khalifs (may Allah be pleased with them)!!!!

On 3/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, power said:

Please explain how do you reconcile the above abstract and with the sermon number 6.  

Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  Had endured immense pain for 23 years 

What is use of enduring immense pain for 23 years. Then finally pick the sword to rectify the situation, when it has gone from bad to worse?

Let us not lower the high status of Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) by stating that he compromised when principles of Islam were being trampled upon as per your beliefs. You are making him look weak which he certainly was not!!

Clearly, Sermon 6 and sermon shaqshaqiya are made up by Shia scholars to show the exaggerated suffering of Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) led very content life for 23 years. After passing away of Hz. Fatimah al Zahrah (may Allah be pleased with her) he got married more than 6 times and had a large family.  This shows that a person is living stress free life with no pains of any sort.

In fact, his third wife was Hz. Asma bint Umais (may Allah be pleased with her), the widow of Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and brought up her son Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as his own son.

I have had a go at responding to all the points raised by you. I didn’t shy away from any points raised by you. But it does take up a lot of effort and time. I hope you will limit your point and not raise other new ones.

Thanks in advance.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Taleb said:

Shows an extremely poor breadth of reading around the development of Islamic thought. 

Salaam, Yes, especially when one has not brushed the teeth for a week. ;- 0

32 minutes ago, Taleb said:

Salah Al-Din, the great defender of Islam against the crusaders, drank alcohol and killed Muslim scholars (see Suhrawardi).

I am aware how much love Shias have for him – Any negative about him is believed as gospel truth irrespective it being true or not!  There were Muslim ‘scholars’ who were co-operating with the Crusaders – just like there are many around now.  Seems like you know what I was hinting at!! :grin:

32 minutes ago, Taleb said:

The (latter) Ottomans collaborated with the Nazis and alienated their subjects by centralising power and restricting it along ethnic lines.

Yes, because they knew the Imperialists and Zionist had plans for Palestine. Give them credit that they were not backstabbing fellow Muslims.  

32 minutes ago, Taleb said:

Your arguments on the majority are a waste of time. There is no monolithic Sunni 'sect'. There is a beautiful, colourful Islamic canvas of ideas with a broad spectrum of beliefs - this includes the Shia. There is no real majority, and besides it's very well documented that scholars often, and still do, artificially attempt to find consensus so as not to violate the concept of Ijmaa'.

I agree with you.  The truth lies somewhere within the middle of the spectrum of Ahlul Sunnah beliefs. I feel very uneasy either end of the spectrum. 

32 minutes ago, Taleb said:

I won't bother reading/replying to the rest of your drivel because anything other than the most superficial and cursory reading of history would highlight how misguided and poor your arguments are. 

I Thank Allah for that. What a relief!  Wish you Peace.

Edited by Debate follower
Forgot to say Salaam first
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8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

When Worldly relationships are negated in Hereafter

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

Surah Hud from verse 42 to verse 46

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Nuh called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers. verse 42 Surah Hud

Salam you make us laugh to your lack of knowledge  & wahabi/Salafi bias by your lack of knowledge  or ignorance  because  in holy Quran it has been clearly stated that reward & punishment  of wives  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) will be doubled  besides that neglecting  all relationships anyone will be neglected  which everyone  will be judged solely  in opposite of this world wich rewards & punishments of Aisha will be doubled which she can't benefit from being wife of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) in opposition  of this world which she has benefited  from worldly  punishment  due to her relationship  with prophet  Muhammad (pbu)which clearly you don't  believe  to intercession  so therefore people  of your creed likewise  Aisha will be judged without  benefiting  from intercession  of his husband at the end as usual  your reference  link at end is a wahabi/Salfi link  which has no credibility .

Quote

 O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah, easy. (30)

Al-Ahzab [33:30]

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:30

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 

I just proved to you from very words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) that there was no disunity in Islam up to the murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) brutal murder by miscreants from Egypt and that caused the confusion and fitnah.

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

So who has been responsible  for creating  disunity & murdering  of Uthman which is crystally clear cursed Ummayids  have had higher hands in creating  disunity & Fitna which cursed Muawiah  & cursed Marwan have been main rule in creating  disunity & murdering Uthman which their procedure has been started since martyrdom of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) through poisoning  by them & their allies  which it's recorded in both of sunni & Shia hadith books that prophet  Muhammad (pbu) before his martyrdom  has seen in his dream that monkeys (Cursed Ummayids ) have ascended  from his pulpit which he ordered muslims kill cursed  Muawiah (la) when they have seen cursed  Muawiah (la) on pulpit which after his martyrdom majority have neglected his prophecy & order but on the other hand cursed  Muawiah (la) & his cursed tribe became rulers of Syria(Shaam) by support  of three Taghut caliphs before Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) .

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated the differences between him and his opponents were not on basis principles of Faith but rather political!

* we had common faith in one Allah

* in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household)

* and on the same principles and canons of religion

And

* So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in

* and they did not want us to change our faith

And

* Both of us were united on these principles.

* The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.

* They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it.

It can clearly be seen that there was no split in principles of faith. Nobody believed in Imamate and neither Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) ever mentioned it.

This is just true about people of Syria (Shaam) who have been fooled  by cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies which enmity of rulers of Syrian  people  with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has been about belief which cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies as ruler & commanders  of opposite  party have been undoubtedly  unbelievers which by misleading  Syrians have started their battle against   Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) so therefore their split has been  caused by unbelievers who have been   cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies & anyone  who has appointed cursed Muawiah  & his cursed tribe as ruler & commander of Syria & Syrians.

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Islam is not limited to a few selected members of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him).

Mainstream of a body always remains and it is the sects that break off.  The best example I can give you is that of a river.  The main body of river carries the name of the river. It is the distributaries of the river that branch off and they never carry the name of main river!!!!

If you read any book on Islamic history, you won’t fail to notice that it is actually history of Ahlul Sunnah.

Shia Islam will always be mentioned in the footnotes or in appendix of the book under the heading ‘Sects in Islam’ along with other sects.

It's a famous qoute  which " winners of war write history" which so called historians  of so called Ahlul Sunnah  have written  their so called  history books in favor of cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids & praising them which it has proven previously  which main body of river of Islam has been Twelver  Shiism  which any sect whether sunni & Shia have separated from it which maybe due to fasting you have forgotten  all previous debates about it .:D

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The following hadith describes the situation perfectly:  The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him) had foretold about sects in Islam.

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (Verse 153 al-An’am) Musnad Aḥmad 4423

The Blessed Qur’an says the same:

But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. Verse 53 Surah Al Mumin’un

Prophet  Muhammad (pbu) have announced  way of  Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & his followers  as straight  path not direction  of his hand .

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Shias have NEVER been that ‘Great Majority’. 12er Shias only came in prominence 1500CE onwards when Safavids brutally and savagery converted populations of Azerbaijan, Iran and to some extent Iraq from Sunni to 12er Shia. Even now, Shias are 10-15% of Muslim population worldwide at the most.

Majority doesn't  mean being in right path which rest of your comment about Safavid is just repeating your previous rhetoric  & wahabi  propaganda .:blabla:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Akhbaris and Usulis

al-Shaykh Ja'far al-Najafi Kashif al-Ghita' Usuli scholar vs Mirza Muhamamd al-Akhbari

Al-Wahid al-Bihbahani  usuli vs al-Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani akhbari scholar

Muhammad Amin al-Astarabadi, the founder of Akhbarism - first to criticize the method of usul al-fiqh and ijtihad,

Read about Akhbari and how Usuli Shias fought them off by all and any means.

 https://en.wikishia.net/view/Akhbaris

:blabla::blabla::blabla:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please go and refer to history: And see who Allah Almighty has Blessed!

1) From Believers (Muslims), who ruled the Islamic World? And who were always the dominant in the Islamic World?

2) Who conquered lands to add to the Islamic World and spread the message of Islam there, from Spain in the West as the World known at that time? From Central Asia in the North and North, West and East Africa?

3) Who brought the Persian and Roman Empires to their knees and introduced Islam in these lands?

4) Who travelled to Far East for trade and Dawah to spread the Message of Islam?

5) Who defended the Islamic World from 2 -3 centuries onslaught from collective forces from Europe in form of Crusades?

6) Who fought off the marauding and plundering the savage Mongols?

7) Who have been custodians of Makkah Al Mukkarmah (where rituals of Hajj are performed), Madinah Al Munawarah (where the Believers can go and pay their profound respects to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and just take a steps to the right to pay respects to his most close Companions (my Allah be pleased with them both) and Bait Al Muqadas (Jerusalam) – the three holy sites in Islam – for most of the time since advent of Islam?

From number 1 to 6 all of them have been duty  of any muslim  ruler which without  verification  by infallible  Imam none of them has any virtue.

about number 7 it clearly has been mentioned providing  water for pilgrims  of Hajj & being custodian of holy places especially  Makkah & Medina  & Jerrusalem  has no superiority  over Jihad & faith which in our era Saud Monarchy  are example of unbelievers & killers of innocent  Muslims  in Yemen especially  innocent children  in similar fashion of their Salaf from cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids  & Ottomans .

Quote

Siqāyat al-ḥājj (Arabic: سِقایَة الحاجّ) or providing water for pilgrims of hajj, was a task during hajj during the early years of Islam. Water was provided for pilgrims from Zamzam and other sources of water. Before the Conquest of Mecca, wine was also served. 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, the Prophet (s)'s uncle, was in charge of providing water for pilgrims of hajj. After the Conquest, the Prophet (s) retained him in charge of the task.

According to the Qur'an 9:19, faith and jihad are superior to the position of providing water for pilgrims of hajj

 

Quote

Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (19)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:19

 

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Then, thanks to internet and YouTube I saw 12er Shia performing self-flagellation rituals in countries like Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and Pakistan. This was a great shock to me. I had never seen such gory scenes and I have never understood why they were inflicting such horrible pain on themselves by their own hands!!!!!!

Questions arise for the reason they are inflicting this pain upon themselves by own hands?

1) to feel the pain of those honourable noble souls? (may Allah be pleased be upon them and reward them with highest rank in the Hereafter as they stood for the Truth against the Tyrants and were martyred)

2) or is for the guilt they feel, that their forefathers invited those honourable noble souls and then disowned them and turned against them and let them be butchered by the Tyrants?

It's forbidden  & illegal  in Iran which also totally  removed  from Lebanon  & highly decreased in Iraq which it highly highlighted  & exaggerated  in anti shia media likewise radical Hindus & wahabists besides of MSM especially  Britain media which all of them have long history of cooperating  in Indian  subcontinent & Pakistan & Afghanistan for spreading hatred  & misinformation  against  Shias .   

None of your two assumptions are true which your assumptions  have been refuted  in following  below link

A Disturbing Innovation

https://tatbir.org/

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Thanks to internet and YouTube one doesn’t need to buy books. I have watched a lot of debates on the Net and read a lot from both sources. Even those of Yasser Kabeeth and Hassan Allahyar – a few from most Shia virulent polemicists.

You are a good example  of brainwashed  people  by Wahabi  propaganda  in Youtube against  Shia Islam & Shia Muslim & Iranians  which you repeatedly  have posted wahabi propaganda  against Shias & Iranians .

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Shia scholars, likes of Yasser Kabeeth and Hassan Allahyar have crossed all limits – I shudder to write what they have said.  And all this is available on the YouTube - maybe you are aware of it.  They are not alone as they are quite popular and have a big following among Shia scholars and general folk.

since then who called them Shia scholars which wearing uniforms  of Shia scholars  doesn't  make them a Shia scholar which in opposition  to your claim  their fans are few number which in similar fashion wahabists  they make fake accounts & create too much nonsense  to show themselves  as a great community  in similar  fashion of Wahabists  & Salafis.

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Clearly, Sermon 6 and sermon shaqshaqiya are made up by Shia scholars to show the exaggerated suffering of Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) led very content life for 23 years. After passing away of Hz. Fatimah al Zahrah (may Allah be pleased with her) he got married more than 6 times and had a large family.  This shows that a person is living stress free life with no pains of any sort.

In fact, his third wife was Hz. Asma bint Umais (may Allah be pleased with her), the widow of Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and brought up her son Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as his own son.

I have had a go at responding to all the points raised by you. I didn’t shy away from any points raised by you. But it does take up a lot of effort and time. I hope you will limit your point and not raise other new ones.

Thanks in advance.

denying  facts & calling it fabrication  is typical  procedure of any Wahabi/Salafi.

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Now this blessed Surah comes into effect.

O Messenger! Convey everything revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not, then you have not delivered His message. Allah will ˹certainly˺ protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the people who disbelieve. Verse 67 Al-Maida

Remember, that he is the father of the great Islamic hero, Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) who never compromised with tyrannic forces and paid the ultimate sacrifice not only with his own life but that of his very dear ones and most loyal supporters.

Divinely appointed Imam is not supposed to stand aside and watch helplessly the plundering of his Divinely bestowed inheritance. And part-timely co-operating with them in their affairs of State management!!!!!!!!

Different  conditions  needs different  response  which condition  of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has been different from condition  of Amir al Muminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) which procedure of all infallible  Imams have been same as each other but on the other hand their situation & conditions  & environments have been different  in any era which it needs different  reply & action in opposition  of If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” 

which for Wahabists  & Salafist sword has rule of hammer.:D

Quote

The nail is the analogy for that problem. Therefore, to explain the analogy, if we are building a house, a hammer is certainly useful. However, if a hammer is our only tool, we will never get that house built. Therefore, one must implement different tools or strategies to solve a problem.

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-does-quote-only-tool-you-have-hammer-you-tend-269193

https://www.commscope.com/blog/2015/if-your-only-tool-is-a-hammer/

 

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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

If, you know the World history well and are fair then you should get to know who ruled the Islamic World. Shias generally and 12ers in particular are just a footnote in Islamic History and that too is based around Iraq and Iran and the surroundings until around 1980s.

Shia Islam is very localised around Iran and Iraq! If one was to draw a circle of 1500 miles radius from Qom or Najaf, it will net 95% of all Shias – and 5% in other places are mostly emigrants from these areas!

It doesn't  prove anything  which is common  rhetoric  of Wahabists  & Salafists about considering their fake majority .:blabla:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) led very content life for 23 years. After passing away of Hz. Fatimah al Zahrah (may Allah be pleased with her) he got married more than 6 times and had a large family.  This shows that a person is living stress free life with no pains of any sort.

In fact, his third wife was Hz. Asma bint Umais (may Allah be pleased with her), the widow of Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and brought up her son Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as his own son.

I have had a go at responding to all the points raised by you. I didn’t shy away from any points raised by you. But it does take up a lot of effort and time. I hope you will limit your point and not raise other new ones.

Amir al Muminin Ima Ali (عليه السلام) has clearly stated that his life & life of lady Fatima has been full of pain & stress after martyrdom  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which even Sunnis agree that lady Fatima (sa) has been full of pain & stress after martyrdom  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which Amir al Muminin Ima Ali (عليه السلام) has had to bear pain & stress of martyrdom  of both of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) & lady Fatima (sa) & tolerating  usurpers of his right which appointing him by divine command is in similar fashion of appointing  Kaaba as center of worship by divine command which rejection  both of them is equal  to rejection  of Islam which as Kaaba doesn't  need for fighting  for it's  status  in similar fashion divinely  appointed  infallible  Imam  doesn't  need calling & fighting  for it's status & position which Muslims must face toward them & follow them because  support of Allah is sufficient  for both of Kaaba & divinely  appointed  infallible  Imam similarly Allah doesn't need accepting  & worshipping of people .

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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

It is He Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may exalt it above every other religion. Allah suffices as Witness. Verse 28 Surah al-Fath (Victory)

 The messenger Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not leave a house made of mud or hair, but will make this religion enter it, while bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam); might with which Allah elevates Islam (and its people), and disgrace with which Allah humiliates disbelief (and its people).” (Musnad al-Imaam Ahmad)

Do you think blood thirsty & misguided Saud Monarchy spreads Islam or it needs a person or group of people  who resemble  prophet  Muhammad (pbu)!?

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

In fact, his third wife was Hz. Asma bint Umais (may Allah be pleased with her), the widow of Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and brought up her son Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as his own son.

Amir al Muminin Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) has done responsibility  of leader of Muslims after death of Abubakr  which it's another point for disqualification  of Umar as leader of Muslims .

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

So, I am well aware of 12er Shias have in their literature. Just few examples)

1) about poisoning the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

2) riding on donkey and preventing Imam Hassan’s (may Allah be pleased be upon him) burial next to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as he had requested.
3) Horrible treatment that Noble Shaikhain (Abu Bakr and Umar) and their daughters who are wives of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) (Aisha and Hafsa) (may Allah be pleased them all) awaits them at the hands the 12th Imam etc etc.

both of these two have mentioned  & approved  in Sunni books anyway brainwashed  people  by wahabi  youtube videos don't know  it.

 

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Qur’an States:
Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourableSurah an-Nur Ayah 26

So, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will NEVER marry lady who is not Pure. Case closed.

You have wrong interpretation  about purity which as you have mentioned which also it has been mentioned some prophets likewise wives of  prophet  Nuh(عليه السلام) & Lut (عليه السلام) wives have been traitors & disbeliever  in similar fashion of some wives of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) who wahabists whitewash sins of them.

11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Now about wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: (the verse you had posted above)

“Allah has made an example for those who are an unbelieving people: the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut. They were married to two of Our servants who were believers, but they betrayed* them and were not helped at all against Allah. They were told: ‘Enter the Fire along with all who enter it.’ (Quran, Surat at-Tahrim: 10)

* “Meaning, in the faith, they did not adhere to the faith sent through their husbands nor accepted their message. Therefore, all the intimate knowledge of their husbands neither helped them nor prevented punishment, hence Allah's statement.”

 

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Read the history:

When Muslims were defending Islam against Crusaders, check out who was cooperating with the Crusaders?

When Muslims were defending Islam against Mongolian Hordes, check out who was cooperating with the Mongols?

When Uthmaniyah Khilafah was fighting against the European Empires in the borders of present-day Germany to protect Islamic lands, check out who was back-stabbing them to help out the European Powers?

If you do so honestly, you’ll get your answer. And it will be quite embarrassing for you. Got the hint?

Everyone  knows  that all of these accusations  agaianst  shias are just baseless rhetorics of wahabists  which until know they have not provided a solid proof from any source whether any history book or fictional  book.:blabla:

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

At-Taghut: Whatever is worshipped besides Allah, the Mighty and Majestic; and every leader of misguidance is a taghut.” -  Lisān al-ʿArab 8/444.

Shias take the first three Khalifs (Hz. Abu Bakr Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman - may Allah be pleased with them) as Tawagheet (singular Taghut) Those who have usurped Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) Divine appointment as Successor to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and as Imam of Muslim Ummah.
If so, Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is duty bound not to cooperate with those ‘rebelled’ against Allah Almighty’s command.  Shias also believe that they also changed the principles of Islam.

Yet Shias claim that Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) co-operated with the 3 Tawagheet even though Islam was being changed and suffered immense pain in silence.

prophet Yusuf have cooperated with Pharaoh  of Egypt for saving people  of Egypt from drought  & famine while Pharaoh  has been a disbeliever  & Taghut  which in similar fashion Imam  Reza (عليه السلام) has unwillingly  accepted  successorship of Mamun the Abbasid king for sake of Muslims  especially  Shias nevertheless  Mamun has been pretending to following  Islam in similar  fashion of three caliphs which majority  of people were considering  them as Muslim based their social  behavior .

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Imam ((عليه السلام).) asked: “Is a pagan ruler inferior or a corrupt Muslim ruler?”
They replied: “The pagan ruler.”
Imam ((عليه السلام).) continued: “Which situation is better: one in which the person personally offers to cooperate; or one in which that person is forced to accept a position?

Quote

In a discussion to their complaints, Imam Reza ((عليه السلام).) answered: “Are the Prophets superior or their successors?”
They replied: “The Prophets.”
Imam ((عليه السلام).) asked: “Is a pagan ruler inferior or a corrupt Muslim ruler?”
They replied: “The pagan ruler.”
Imam ((عليه السلام).) continued: “Which situation is better: one in which the person personally offers to cooperate; or one in which that person is forced to accept a position?”
They replied: “The one in which the person personally asks to collaborate.”
The Imam ((عليه السلام).) then said: “The pious Yusuf was a prophet, while the king of Egypt during his time was a pagan. Despite this fact, (Yusuf) said: “Set me over the store-houses of the land: I will indeed guard them, as one that knows (their importance).” (Quran 12:55). This is because Yusuf wanted to obtain a position in which he could use it to the best aim. In addition (to this) the king of Egypt was a pagan, whereas Ma’moon is a corrupt Muslim. Yusuf was a prophet and I am a successor of prophet. Yusuf suggested himself but they forced me (to accept the position).”
 

 

Quote

That logic is basically what all religions accept, which allows the followers to enter the corrupt systems, providing that they are steadfast in their faith and with the intention to benefit the system in the correct moral sense. In other words, they are not employed to help the system with its corrupt activities; rather they are employed to improve the system in the best religious way. In the latter case, the person is a part of the system and his efforts are put towards the system’s benefits; but in the former, although he is a part of the system, he works in the system in such a way that can be beneficial to his religion and to all of mankind.

https://shiastudies.com/en/3246/imam-reza-a-s-and-the-mamuns-government/

https://www.erfan.ir/english/88789.html

https://www.erfan.ir/english/38780.html

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is the Best of Creation and the Purest of the pure. So, he will never do anything which go against the Qur’an – The Blessed Qur’an is talking about life in this World.

Your whole comment was superfluous except this point which needed attention. Prophet (Pbuhhp) never commit a mistake by marrying a muslimah. However, the sins of wives cannot be attributed to Prophet (PBUHHP). Your argument is faulty like the argument of shaitan who lies on Allah (عزّ وجلّ) that He (عزّ وجلّ) left him perverted while it was his own choice. If you blame Prophet about the sins of wives then do you blame him for the sins of Arabs too who enjoyed his company and did not act right while Allah (عزّ وجلّ) disagree with this and call them hypocrites and disassociate them from Prophet (PBUHHP). Even for wives read Quran where two wives of Prophet are criticized and warned that if they will not act right, there are other obedient and pious women for Prophet. This proves that wives of Prophet were not infallible your argument is rejected by Quran.

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8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

When Worldly relationships are negated in Hereafter

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

Surah Hud from verse 42 to verse 46

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Nuh called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers. verse 42 Surah Hud

Salam you make us laugh to your lack of knowledge  & wahabi/Salafi bias by your lack of knowledge  or ignorance  because  in holy Quran it has been clearly stated that reward & punishment  of wives  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) will be doubled  besides that neglecting  all relationships anyone will be neglected  which everyone  will be judged solely  in opposite of this world wich rewards & punishments of Aisha will be doubled which she can't benefit from being wife of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) in opposition  of this world which she has benefited  from worldly  punishment  due to her relationship  with prophet  Muhammad (pbu)which clearly you don't  believe  to intercession  so therefore people  of your creed likewise  Aisha will be judged without  benefiting  from intercession  of his husband at the end as usual  your reference  link at end is a wahabi/Salfi link  which has no credibility .

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 O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah, easy. (30)

Al-Ahzab [33:30]

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:30

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 

I just proved to you from very words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) that there was no disunity in Islam up to the murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) brutal murder by miscreants from Egypt and that caused the confusion and fitnah.

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

So who has been responsible  for creating  disunity & murdering  of Uthman which is crystally clear cursed Ummayids  have had higher hands in creating  disunity & Fitna which cursed Muawiah  & cursed Marwan have been main rule in creating  disunity & murdering Uthman which their procedure has been started since martyrdom of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) through poisoning  by them & their allies  which it's recorded in both of sunni & Shia hadith books that prophet  Muhammad (pbu) before his martyrdom  has seen in his dream that monkeys (Cursed Ummayids ) have ascended  from his pulpit which he ordered muslims kill cursed  Muawiah (la) when they have seen cursed  Muawiah (la) on pulpit which after his martyrdom majority have neglected his prophecy & order but on the other hand cursed  Muawiah (la) & his cursed tribe became rulers of Syria(Shaam) by support  of three Taghut caliphs before Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) .

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated the differences between him and his opponents were not on basis principles of Faith but rather political!

* we had common faith in one Allah

* in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household)

* and on the same principles and canons of religion

And

* So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in

* and they did not want us to change our faith

And

* Both of us were united on these principles.

* The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.

* They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it.

It can clearly be seen that there was no split in principles of faith. Nobody believed in Imamate and neither Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) ever mentioned it.

This is just true about people of Syria (Shaam) who have been fooled  by cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies which enmity of rulers of Syrian  people  with Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has been about belief which cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies as ruler & commanders  of opposite  party have been undoubtedly  unbelievers which by misleading  Syrians have started their battle against   Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) so therefore their split has been  caused by unbelievers who have been   cursed Muawiah  & his cursed allies & anyone  who has appointed cursed Muawiah  & his cursed tribe as ruler & commander of Syria & Syrians.

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Islam is not limited to a few selected members of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him).

Mainstream of a body always remains and it is the sects that break off.  The best example I can give you is that of a river.  The main body of river carries the name of the river. It is the distributaries of the river that branch off and they never carry the name of main river!!!!

If you read any book on Islamic history, you won’t fail to notice that it is actually history of Ahlul Sunnah.

Shia Islam will always be mentioned in the footnotes or in appendix of the book under the heading ‘Sects in Islam’ along with other sects.

It's a famous qoute  which " winners of war write history" which so called historians  of so called Ahlul Sunnah  have written  their so called  history books in favor of cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids & praising them which it has proven previously  which main body of river of Islam has been Twelver  Shiism  which any sect whether sunni & Shia have separated from it which maybe due to fasting you have forgotten  all previous debates about it .:D

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The following hadith describes the situation perfectly:  The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon on him) had foretold about sects in Islam.

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (Verse 153 al-An’am) Musnad Aḥmad 4423

The Blessed Qur’an says the same:

But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. Verse 53 Surah Al Mumin’un

Prophet  Muhammad (pbu) have announced  way of  Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & his followers  as straight  path not direction  of his hand .

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Shias have NEVER been that ‘Great Majority’. 12er Shias only came in prominence 1500CE onwards when Safavids brutally and savagery converted populations of Azerbaijan, Iran and to some extent Iraq from Sunni to 12er Shia. Even now, Shias are 10-15% of Muslim population worldwide at the most.

Majority doesn't  mean being in right path which rest of your comment about Safavid is just repeating your previous rhetoric  & wahabi  propaganda .:blabla:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Akhbaris and Usulis

al-Shaykh Ja'far al-Najafi Kashif al-Ghita' Usuli scholar vs Mirza Muhamamd al-Akhbari

Al-Wahid al-Bihbahani  usuli vs al-Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani akhbari scholar

Muhammad Amin al-Astarabadi, the founder of Akhbarism - first to criticize the method of usul al-fiqh and ijtihad,

Read about Akhbari and how Usuli Shias fought them off by all and any means.

 https://en.wikishia.net/view/Akhbaris

:blabla::blabla::blabla:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please go and refer to history: And see who Allah Almighty has Blessed!

1) From Believers (Muslims), who ruled the Islamic World? And who were always the dominant in the Islamic World?

2) Who conquered lands to add to the Islamic World and spread the message of Islam there, from Spain in the West as the World known at that time? From Central Asia in the North and North, West and East Africa?

3) Who brought the Persian and Roman Empires to their knees and introduced Islam in these lands?

4) Who travelled to Far East for trade and Dawah to spread the Message of Islam?

5) Who defended the Islamic World from 2 -3 centuries onslaught from collective forces from Europe in form of Crusades?

6) Who fought off the marauding and plundering the savage Mongols?

7) Who have been custodians of Makkah Al Mukkarmah (where rituals of Hajj are performed), Madinah Al Munawarah (where the Believers can go and pay their profound respects to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and just take a steps to the right to pay respects to his most close Companions (my Allah be pleased with them both) and Bait Al Muqadas (Jerusalam) – the three holy sites in Islam – for most of the time since advent of Islam?

From number 1 to 6 all of them have been duty  of any muslim  ruler which without  verification  by infallible  Imam none of them has any virtue.

about number 7 it clearly has been mentioned providing  water for pilgrims  of Hajj & being custodian of holy places especially  Makkah & Medina  & Jerrusalem  has no superiority  over Jihad & faith which in our era Saud Monarchy  are example of unbelievers & killers of innocent  Muslims  in Yemen especially  innocent children  in similar fashion of their Salaf from cursed Ummayids  & Abbasids  & Ottomans .

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Siqāyat al-ḥājj (Arabic: سِقایَة الحاجّ) or providing water for pilgrims of hajj, was a task during hajj during the early years of Islam. Water was provided for pilgrims from Zamzam and other sources of water. Before the Conquest of Mecca, wine was also served. 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, the Prophet (s)'s uncle, was in charge of providing water for pilgrims of hajj. After the Conquest, the Prophet (s) retained him in charge of the task.

According to the Qur'an 9:19, faith and jihad are superior to the position of providing water for pilgrims of hajj

 

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Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (19)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:19

 

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23 hours ago, Debate follower said:

He is clearly warning the people that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) stance of coming out against Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is WRONG as Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was on the RIGHT. And that she must not be supported just because she is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Salamun Alaikum Brother!

Good to see your comment after long time. Alhamdulillah, Ramadhan are gone, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accept our prayers and fasting and grant us steadfastness on the religion Islam and on the path of those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted blessings & favors. 

Brother! You are missing one important point and I hope that Hz Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه) would have not missed that point. And the point is that the coming out of Ummul Mo'mineen from her house itself is a disobedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) according to Quran:

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ

"Stay in your houses" was the command and she violated the command by coming out of her house, riding the camel and leading a whole Army. 

So Ammar's (رضي الله عنه) words "but God wants to test you through her whether you obey Him or obey her" could be a reflection of her apparent disobedience to a command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Then another serious clause also goes against her as she came out to fight no one else but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who is mentioned as "kull e emaan" by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in Khandaq. Whose hatred is a sign of nifaq and munafiqeen are promissed درك الاسفل من النار according to Quran:

إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِي الدَّرْكِ الأَسْفَلِ مِنَ النَّارِ وَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُمْ نَصِيرًا

4:145 

Ammar (رضي الله عنه) was well aware of all these facts. So the quoted hadith of yours has severe implications. We need to go through it slowly and by covering the whole sphere of the story.

Second point, the dogs of Hawab (حواب) barked at her and their barking reminded her a prophecy in which Prophet said that dogs of Hawab will bark on one of his wife. There are different versions of this prophecy, the one which is with us, is very strong but I am again avoiding to share it at the moment. 

Hawab is a place near basra. There are reports in Sunni sources about this story as well. I am again avoiding to relate this story to this case out of precaution that I may cause something wrong to your emotions. So just stopping right here. 

23 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Stated in all hadith and history books that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) remorsefully regretted her role in Battle of the Camel and prayed always for forgiveness. 

She once again came out of her house riding a mule and denied the burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) beside the grave of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The history has recorded that standoff too brother when arrows were either aimed at the coffin of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) or either thrown at his coffin. I haven't heard any report where she asked forgiveness for this specific act. So if we accept that she repented once again after Jamal, it becomes null & void once again when she came out of her house riding a mule 2nd time, commanding the arch men to aim the coffin of  Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

We have a very strong case against her brother. And according to our history books as well as hadith books, she has presented herself as enemy of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

23 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

You again missed my point, I am saying my dear brother that this Quran has its existence in "Lawh al Mehfooz", it is with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Ummil Kitab. And the Quran contains the verses which contains the phrase:

يَا نِسَاءَ النَّبِيِّ

So whether the physical relation may got terminated, the very person can still be identified as "wife of Prophet"

I mean people will not forget who were the wives of Prophet in this world nor the verses of Quran mentioning the wives will be erased. And if any wife is burning in hell, getting the promised الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ according to 33:30, she will be identified as a person who was the wife of Prophet in this world. Same is the case of wives of Nuh (عليه السلام) & Lut (عليه السلام), they were mentioned as wives in Quran and Quran has its level of existence in higher level of existence, the verses will remain there:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ

Wives of these two prophets were made example for disbelievers, in this world and in thereafter. The identity of the two ladies will remain 

امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ

And lastly Ammar (رضي الله عنه) is also well aware of this verse too:

عَسَىٰ رَبُّهُ إِنْ طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَنْ يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِنْكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا

I am not going to translate this Arabic text. But the description given after "khayran minkunna" specifically "muslimaatin mo'minaat" is very meaningful. 

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It is actually very easy to see the muslim personalities by comparing them with the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and after his demise. The great test was after the Prophet where many actually falled, by expansion of land and culture and increase of wealth and power and taking care of Prophet Ahulbayt. Take an example of elites Talha and Zubayr, an early converts who gave their life and wealth to Islam became stingy and love with wealth. Aisha manifested her hate of Ahlulbayt by literally "acting" to kill Imam Ali (عليه السلام), even, when the Prophet clearly have instucted to love, follow and take care of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). It was very hard for the Prophet (saws) to raise and take care of His companions, but the real test was really after his demise, and many of the elites Companions started to follow their desires, and many of them felt that they deserve what they desire, because of how much they have done toward Islam, this was their great sin.

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On 3/12/2022 at 3:18 AM, Debate follower said:

You are interpreting the verse to suit your sectarian obligations.

On 3/11/2022 at 9:27 PM, Abu Nur said:

The verse literally says what it says:

This verse indicates the weakness and mistakes of those who separated themselves away from the Prophet and made groups; the Prophet is being asked to not become affiliated with such parties, as he is the criterion.

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That’s only the Shia view.

It surely is not a Sunni view.

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There is NO mention of concept of Imamate in the Blessed Qur’an.

The concept of Imamate is mentioned many times in Qur'an, it is an covenant. For example Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made Prophet Ibrahim as Imam and that the Imamate comes from his lineage choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This means that if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants to make someone Imam (عليه السلام), he must be coming from lineage of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and he also must be choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that he can not be from wrongdoars. 

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

This verse literally defines the Imamate. It is an Covenant "My covenant  ": Imamah: "Leader for the People". By not including the wrongdoers, this exactly means the infallibility is also extended to Imams. This means that any wrongdoer excluded this title. Choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said "I will make you ". From lineage of Ibrahim, because of "And of my descendants?" .

The reason why some Shias believe that Imamah is higher in rank than Prophethood is because of this exactly verse: when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. Here Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was already prophet and he was tested with higher test and he fullfilled them so God made him Imam because of his fulfilment of these test. 

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See the following Blessed ayah which lists those whom Allah Almighty has bestowed favours upon: 1) The Prophets (peace be upon them all) 2) the Martyrs 3) the Good - What’s missing? Shia version of Imamate which is ranked higher than Prophet-hood!

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they Verse 69 an-Nisa

I don't get your point.

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Lol! It’s your logic that’s falling flat face down first.  The Blessed Qur’an states umpteen times that MAJORITY OF MANKIND will not believe in ISLAM – this includes Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans and Atheists etc.

Muslims (the BELIEVERS) will be in minority compared to others collectively.

From among the Believers (Muslims) the Sunnis are overwhelming MAJORITY

It is very difficult to understand why Shias feel so secure to be a tiny minority (Is it because they know that they will never be in majority?)

It is you who really don't get it. If Jews and Christians were the right religion in the past, then why God allowed majority of them to misguided and only small sect to be guided? Do you get it now? My argument is that being minority or majority does not prove the sect is right.

 

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On 5/8/2022 at 1:38 AM, Debate follower said:

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

Salam this response  to your favorite  doubt which martyr  Mutahari has explained  it with all details  which I hope so that at least  your read this part of his book instead watching nonsense  Youtube  videos of Wahabists .:book:

Chapter 1: ‘Ali’s (‘a) Struggles
“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter that has (several) sides and colors, which neither hearts can bear nor intelligence fathom. Clouds are hovering over the sky and a clear path is not apparent. You should know that if I respond to you, I can lead you as I know how.”1

We know that ‘Ali never used to refrain from mentioning that successorship [khilafah]2 was his lawful right during the time of caliphate of the caliphs. What’s more, we see that after the bloody revolution against ‘Uthman3, which resulted in his murder, people poured into ‘Ali’s house, insisting on swearing allegiance to him, if he were to take the reins of power. But he was reluctant to accept the caliphate.

The above statements are mentioned in Nahj al-Balaghah.4 He says, “Leave me and seek someone else.” Later, Imam ‘Ali (‘a) himself explains the reason for his refusal so that, God forbid, no one would assume that Imam ‘Ali (‘a) did not think himself worthy for caliphate after the Prophet (s). He described the situation as extremely chaotic and that an even more chaotic situation was to be expected. 

https://www.al-islam.org/survey-lives-infallible-imams-murtadha-mutahhari/chapter-1-alis-struggles

https://www.al-islam.org/survey-lives-infallible-imams-murtadha-mutahhari/chapter-1-alis-struggles

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We know that ‘Ali never used to refrain from mentioning that successorship [khilafah]2 was his lawful right during the time of caliphate of the caliphs. What’s more, we see that after the bloody revolution against ‘Uthman3, which resulted in his murder, people poured into ‘Ali’s house, insisting on swearing allegiance to him, if he were to take the reins of power. But he was reluctant to accept the caliphate.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) actually asked Talha and Zubayr to take the matter of Khilafa where where they refused so. He knew that these same two are going to cause problems and fitnah, and for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) unity of Ummah and the Religion of Prophet (saws) is the the most important thing and his duty as imam to lead people to right path.

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Your whole comment was superfluous except this point which needed attention.

I didn’t expect any other response from you. When one is stumped for answers that’s the expected response.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Prophet (Pbuhhp) never commit a mistake by marrying a muslimah. However, the sins of wives cannot be attributed to Prophet (PBUHHP). Your argument is faulty like the argument of shaitan who lies on Allah (عزّ وجلّ) that He (عزّ وجلّ) left him perverted while it was his own choice.

Why are you trying to say what I never said? In actual fact, your whole post is a straw man exercise.

All the Blessed Prophets are infallible since they have to deliver Divine Message to Mankind for Guidance. Rest of Mankind are all fallible. All non-Prophets are fallible without any exception.

……………………… for humankind was created weak. Verse 28 Surah an-Nisa

Verily, God loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and He loves those who keep themselves pure Verse 222 Surah al-Baqarah

But as for those who do bad deeds and afterwards repent and [truly] believe-verily, after such repentance thy Sustainer is indeed much forgiving, a Dispenser of Grace Verse 153 Surah al-A’raf

And your analogy of ‘argument of shaytaan’ – the cursed is out of place here.

Allow me to give you more relevant example, that of Hz. Adam (peace be upon him).

AND, INDEED, long ago did We impose Our commandment on Adam; but he forgot it, and We found no firmness of purpose in him Verse 115 Surah Ta Ha

And they both ate from it, so that their nakedness became apparent to them, and they began to cover themselves with the leaves from the Garden. Adam disobeyed his Lord and was led astray. Verse 121 Surah Ta Ha

Now, would you treat Hz. Adam and Lady Hawaa’ (may Allah be pleased with them) with the ‘same sense of fairness’ that you do to Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)?  I doubt it.

But they sincerely asked for forgiveness and Allah Almighty Forgave them by His Grace.

“Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers.” Surah Al A’raf verse 23

Thereafter, [however,) his Sustainer elected him [for His grace], and accepted his repentance, and bestowed His guidance upon him Verse 122 Surah Ta Ha

It is well documented that Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) repented her participation in this unanticipated battle. She never came out against Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased him) or his leadership. Her primary motive was to seek justice for brutal murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased him).

On 5/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

If you blame Prophet about the sins of wives then do you blame him for the sins of Arabs too who enjoyed his company and did not act right while Allah (عزّ وجلّ) disagree with this and call them hypocrites and disassociate them from Prophet (PBUHHP).

Again, straw man argument. I never blamed the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) for anything.

All that I stated was the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) followed the Blessed Qur’an and never did anything against its commands – which in this incidence is:

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. Surah an-Nur Ayah 26

And Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) followed this command.

Now, I understand the problem you are having. From very young age, your scholars, Zakirs and your literature has drummed into you the hatred for the select few very close to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Last evening, I spent a few hours researching the reasons for this hatred.

 I was shocked for the intensity of this hatred. It is manifold more intense than they would have for likes of Abu Jahal, Abu Lahab, Umayyah bin Khalaf, Walid bin Mughira, Al-As bin Wa'il Sahmi, Uqbah Bin Abi Muayt - just to name a few of severest and prominent enemies of Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

On 5/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Even for wives read Quran where two wives of Prophet are criticized and warned that if they will not act right, there are other obedient and pious women for Prophet.

Yes, they were criticised and warned. They repented and apologised for their action and were forgiven. End of matter. And they remained wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

On 5/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This proves that wives of Prophet were not infallible your argument is rejected by Quran.

Yet again, straw man argument. I never claimed infallibility for the noble wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Let’s refer to ayah:

Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing verse 33 Surah al-Ahzab

Why did Allah Almighty need to purify members of Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) family if they were already pure? Shia have to explain those impurities which they (5 Ahlulbayt) carried that Allah Almighty intended to remove?

We have to admit that it is about ordinary humans with impurity of sins or doubts whatever we call it and Allah Almighty wished to remove. But we see Shia claim that their Imams are born infallible. This verse in fact poses a very difficult challenge for Shia.

Are you ready to concede that?

1)  Your First 3 Imams and Lady Fatima (may Allah be pleased with them) had some ‘spiritual impurities’ until Allah Almighty expressed His intention or wish to remove them thoroughly?

2) If so, then you as a Shia claim that they were born infallible.

If there was no impurity in the first place, then there was no point of an intention to remove it.

Either way this belief does not hold water.

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

Salamun Alaikum Brother!

Good to see your comment after long time. Alhamdulillah, Ramadhan are gone, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accept our prayers and fasting and grant us steadfastness on the religion Islam and on the path of those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted blessings & favors. 

Wa’alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh respected brother,

Yes, I had said earlier that I’ll not be posting the Blessed Ramadan.  I find too much debating hardens the heart. Indeed, Ramadan came with its blessings and gone. May Allah Almighty accept your duas for us all. May it be so. Jazakallah khayarun for including in your prayers.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

Brother! You are missing one important point and I hope that Hz Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه) would have not missed that point. And the point is that the coming out of Ummul Mo'mineen from her house itself is a disobedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) according to Quran:

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ

"Stay in your houses" was the command and she violated the command by coming out of her house, riding the camel and leading a whole Army. 

My dear brother, I have not missed this point and neither did Hz Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه) miss it.

The Command of Allah Almighty ‘not leave to house’ didn’t mean that they were sort of under ‘House arrest’. They were not locked up in their quarters.

They could go and perform Hajj and visit relatives in other towns. The restriction was for them not move around in public as ordinary people. Or move around without any genuine reason/motive.

All agree she made a mistake in joining the campaign to seek justice for brutal murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) who was the 3rd Khalif.

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), newly appointed Khalif, needed more time to control and stabilise the situation as the rebels had created chaos/confusion and had infiltrated into his ranks. There was confusion all over which can clearly be seen from his sermon.

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…… Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

On the other hand, Hz. Zubayr ibn al-Awwam (may Allah be pleased with him) who was her cousin had convinced her that her presence in the movement to seek justice and retribution from the Perpetrators, will resolve this demand very quickly.

Opponents of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), were afraid that if more time was given the Perpetrators of the heinous crime, they will establish themselves well thus justice won’t be done.

All Muslims agree that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Ali’s (may Allah be pleased with him) stance was correct, and that his opponents were on the wrong even though they had genuine reasons. They should have given him time and space to get matters under control.

The peace talks were successful but got sabotaged by the Perpetrators resulting in skirmishes.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Ali’s (may Allah be pleased with him) forces were victors.

This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did. Verse 141 Surah Al-Baqarah

Hamza ibn Abd al-Muttalib

Wahshi ibn Harb

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

So Ammar's (رضي الله عنه) words "but God wants to test you through her whether you obey Him or obey her" could be a reflection of her apparent disobedience to a command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Brother, Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased be upon her) and others didn’t rebel against Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib’s (may Allah be pleased him) to question his election or to dispose him from Khilafat. 

After the death of Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was chosen to be the next caliph of Muslims; he was selected by the great companions including Hz. Zubayr and Hz. Talha (may Allah be pleased with them).

About six months after brutal murder of Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) assuming Khilafat (power), the murderers of Hz. Uthman (رضي الله عنه) had not been brought to justice. There was a great public pressure for justice to be done.

Hz. Zubayr and Hz. Talha (may Allah be pleased with them) formed a group to take up this matter of justice. They, then persuaded Hz. Aisha to lead this movement as her presence would greatly help in getting the due justice.

So, she didn’t rebel against Hz. Ali’s (may Allah be pleased with him) Khilafat. He was asking for more time but his opponents were of the view that around 6 months had passed and nothing much was done to get the justice and bring the culprits to account.

This clearly shows that she was NOT disobeying Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) or indirectly Allah Almighty!

On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

So Ammar's (رضي الله عنه) words "but God wants to test you through her whether you obey Him or obey her"

He is clearly warning the people that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) stance of coming out against Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is WRONG as Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was on the RIGHT. And that she must not be supported just because she is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

So, the test for the people is to choose to follow the who is on the Right and not those who were on the WRONG (even though they have very close relationship with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Just to give you example of Hz. Adam (peace be upon him) – Even being Prophet and first human, he too erred and ‘disobeyed’ Allah Almighty – this disobedience was not in defiance or challenge Allah Almighty’s Authority.

But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to him; he said: O Adam! Shall I guide you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which decays not Verse 121 Taha

They both ate the fruit of this tree, and so they became conscious of their nakedness and began to cover themselves with the leaves of the Garden. Thus, Adam disobeyed his Lord and fell into error Verse 121 Taha

Then his Lord chose him, so He turned to him and guided (him) Verse 122 Taha

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

Then another serious clause also goes against her as she came out to fight no one else but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who is mentioned as "kull e emaan" by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in Khandaq. Whose hatred is a sign of nifaq and munafiqeen are promissed درك الاسفل من النار according to Quran:

إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِي الدَّرْكِ الأَسْفَلِ مِنَ النَّارِ وَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُمْ نَصِيرًا

4:145 

Ammar (رضي الله عنه) was well aware of all these facts. So the quoted hadith of yours has severe implications. We need to go through it slowly and by covering the whole sphere of the story.

Brother, history doesn’t agree with you. Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased be upon her) did not come out to fight Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) for Khilafat or anything else but only to put pressure to bring the culprits of Hz. Uthman’s murderer to justice.

Brother, see Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with you) views are completely at odds with that you have.

In Sunan Bayhiqi it is narrated that on the eve of the war of Jamal, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked about the opponents:

“Are they Mushrikeen?” He replied: “They have run from shirk and come into Islam”. Then he was asked “Are they Munafiqeen?” He replied “Munafiqeen are those who don’t remember Allah, except a little (while the opponents do a lot of Zikr)” Then he was asked “Then what are they?” He replied: “They are our brothers who have rebelled from us” [Sunun Bayhiqi – Dairat ul Ma’arif edition page 173 vol 8]

Another narration:

“And when the mother of believers Aisha wanted to leave Basarah, Ali (رضي الله عنه) sent her provisions from food and clothing and all supplies which were necessary, he permitted for all those who came with her in the army to leave unless they preferred to stay, he chose for her forty of the finest women of Basarah to accompany her as well as her brother Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), When the day of her departure came Ali stood by the door and so did the people, she came out and bid them farewell and made Dua for them and said: “O son there is no admonition between us, ‘By Allāh! There was nothing between me and `Alī except what ensues between the woman and her in-laws.”

Ali then said: “By Allah she speaks the truth there was nothing except that between us and she is the wife of your prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in this life and in the hereafter.” Ali then walked with her a long distance, it was on a Saturday in Rajab of the thirty sixth year of Hijra, she sought Mecca and remained there until she made the Hajj of that year then returned to Madinah may Allah be pleased with her.” [Source: Al bidayah wal nihayah 7/268-269

Brother, also the Blessed Qur’an points out that Believers can be fighting each other. They should not but at times there are misunderstandings or some third evil party trying to cause divisions.

And if two groups of believers fight each other, then make peace between them. But if one of them transgresses against the other, then fight against the transgressing group until they ˹are willing to˺ submit to the rule of Allah. If they do so, then make peace between both ˹groups˺ in all fairness and act justly. Surely Allah loves those who uphold justice. Verse 9 Al-Hujurat

 Brother, there was a popular demand from public at large to bring the culprits who had brutally murdered the third Khalif (may Allah be pleased with him) to account. These culprits had infiltrated in Hz. Ali’s (may Allah be pleased with him) camp. You can see in the Sermon168 (quoted below) he is pleading for more time to have full control.

After swearing of allegiance to Amir al-Mu'minin, some people from among the companions of the Prophet said to him, "You should punish the people who assaulted ‘Uthman," whereupon he said:

O my brothers! I am not ignorant of what you know, but how do I have the power for it while those who assaulted him are in the height of their power. They have superiority over us, not we over them. They are now in the position that even your slaves have risen with them and Bedouin Arabs too have joined them. They are now among you and are harming you as they like. Do you see any way to be able to do what you aim at?

This demand is certainly that of the pre-Islamic (al-jahiliyyah) period and these people have support behind them. When the matter is taken up, people will have different views about it. One group will think as you do, but another will not think as you think, and there will be still another group who will be neither this way nor that way. Be patient till people quieten down and hearts settle in their places so that rights can be achieved for people easily.

Rest assured from me, and see what is given to you by me. Do not do anything which shatters your power, weakens your strength and engenders feebleness and disgrace. I shall control this affair as far as possible, but if I find it necessary the last treatment will, of course, be branding with a hot iron (through fighting). Sermon 168 Nahjul Balagha

All Fitnahs create confusion, misunderstanding, uncertainty bewilderment, perplexity etc. etc.

This has been perfectly expressed by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sermon 92 in Nahjul Balagha.

“Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible…………………...” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

See, even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) shows the effects of fitnah in his speech.

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

Second point, the dogs of Hawab (حواب) barked at her and their barking reminded her a prophecy in which Prophet said that dogs of Hawab will bark on one of his wife. There are different versions of this prophecy, the one which is with us, is very strong but I am again avoiding to share it at the moment. 

Hawab is a place near basra. There are reports in Sunni sources about this story as well. I am again avoiding to relate this story to this case out of precaution that I may cause something wrong to your emotions. So just stopping right here. 

Dear brother, I got the following from the Net. I am posting it here – It explains the event of ‘Barking dogs of Howab in detail.

Quote

 

“Thanks are due to Allah the most merciful, the most compassionate. Prayer and peace are upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, and his companions.

The story of the dogs of Howab is not narrated in the nine Sunni books (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Nisa’ei, Ibn Majah, Al-Turmithi, Abu Dawood, Mowati’a Imam Malik, Musnad Ahmed and Al-Darumi) except in Musnad Ahmed. Ahmed narrated two versions of the story. Also, the story is found in Saheeh Ibn Habban, Al-Mustadrik by Al-Hakim, and in history books. This hadeeth is authentic and true.

The Narration goes as:

“Isma’eel narrated from Qays who said, ‘When Aysha approached the waters of Bani A’amir, she heard some dogs barking. Aysha asked, ‘What is the location of these waters?’ She was answered, ‘This is the waters of the Howab.’ Then she said, ‘I am going back!’ Some of the people with her said, ‘No, you should go on. Then the Muslims would see you and Allah would make peace between them.’ Then she said again, ‘I heard that the prophet peace be upon him said, ‘Then what would you (the wives of the prophet) do when you hear the barking of Al-Howab dogs?’

The prophet peace be upon him said one time to his wives, “Which one of you would be barked at by the dogs of Al-Howab?” This showed dispraise, but it did not mean dispraise itself.

And when the prophet peace be upon him passed away, and after the years of the caliphate of Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman, and the affliction happened, and people killed the innocent Uthman, then Talha, Al-Zubair, and some Muslim agreed to go to Iraq and to persuade the people of Iraq to avenge from the killers of Uthman.

The Companions asked the caliph Ali Bin Abi Talib to execute the killers of Uthman, but Ali refused fearing to agitate more afflictions. So Talha and Al-Zubair sought the help of the people of Iraq by asking the help of Aysha, the mother of the believers. If Aysha came along, Talha and Al-Zubair reasoned, then the people of Iraq would listen to them.

Therefore, when Aysha agreed to join them, she heard along the way the barking of the dogs. Then she remembered the words of the prophet peace be upon him. She asked her companions for the location. They answered that they were close to Al-Howab. So Aysha decided to go back from where she came, but the companions pleaded her not to saying that they came for a good cause, not an evil one. Hence, she agreed on moving on with them.

This hadeeth confused some people so they rejected it although it is a true hadeeth. We have to understand something important. When a virtuous and a pious person does a bad thing, it does not mean that it became one of his/her characteristics. The infallible is infallible through Allah, and the Sunnis should not exceed the limits in his respect or love as the Shia do with their twelve Imams. Aysha wanted to avenge the killers of the caliph. This intention in itself is virtuous. However, this idea from its roots is wrong. Therefore, Aysha wanted to go back after she heard the barking near Al-Howab, but Al-Zubair persuaded her to stay to “reform between people.” There is no doubt that Al-Zubair was wrong as well.

Ahl Al-Sunnah agreed on the above. Ahl Al-Sunnah do not say that the march of Aysha is right. Ahl Al-Sunnah wrote in their books that the march of Aysha was wrong, but Ahl Al-Sunnah rejected the exaggeration of the Shia of this march. As if the Shia want the Companions not to commit any mistakes whatsoever! They do not consider the Companions as infallible, but they judge them as if the Companions are true infallible!

Nevertheless, Allah in the mighty Quran had called Aysha, and the rest of the prophet’s wives, as the mothers of the believers. If the Shia do not consider Aysha as their mother, then it is their business, not us.

 “The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah, than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless, do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing of the Decree (of Allah).” Verse 6 Surat Al-Ahzab

Then how come such a Muslim who says the two Shahadah to slander the mother of the believers and the Companions of the prophet peace be upon him when Allah says about the companions,

The vanguard (of Islam), the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds, well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them Hath He prepared Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever: that is the supreme FelicityVerse 100 Surah Tawbah

And we, Ahl Al-Sunnah say, “And those who came after them say: "Our Lord! Forgive us, and our brethren who came before us into the Faith, and leave not, in our hearts, rancour (or sense of injury) against those who have believed. Our Lord! Thou art indeed Full of Kindness, Most Merciful.” Verse 10 Surah Al-Hashr

According to Masnad Ibn Abi Shaibah, she DID repent. Since it is a Sunni book, I don't blame Sunni’s for believing that. And since you're Shi’a, I don't blame you for NOT believing it.”

 

 

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I am quoting myself from the above passage.

 

Quote

Therefore, when Aysha agreed to join them, she heard along the way the barking of the dogs. Then she remembered the words of the prophet peace be upon him. She asked her companions for the location. They answered that they were close to Al-Howab. So Aysha decided to go back from where she came, but the companions pleaded her not to saying that they came for a good cause, not an evil one. Hence, she agreed on moving on with them.

Dear brother, the event of ‘Barking dogs of Al-Howab took place around 25 years after passing away of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said one time to his wives, “Which one of you would be barked at by the dogs of Al-Howab?”  Note: He did not point out to any particular wife.

“Then she remembered the words of the prophet peace be upon him.” Clearly shows that Hz. Aisha had forgotten about this and only remembered when she heard the barking dogs.

Dear brother refer to the following ayah from Surah Taha

AND, INDEED, long ago did We impose Our commandment on Adam; but he forgot it, and We found no firmness of purpose in him Verse 115 Surah Taha

For [thus it was:] when We told the angels, "Prostrate yourselves before Adam!"- they all prostrated themselves, save Ibis, who refused [to do it] Verse 116 Surah Taha

and thereupon We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is a foe unto thee and thy wife: so let him not drive the two of you out of this garden and render thee unhappy Verse 116 Surah Taha

And so, the two ate [of the fruit] thereof: and thereupon they became conscious of their nakedness and began to cover themselves with pieced-together leaves from the garden. And [thus] did Adam DISOBEY his Sustainer, and thus did he fall into grievous error Verse 121 Surah Taha

Note: 1) Hz. Adam (peace be upon him) forgot the Commandments Allah Almighty had imposed upon him!
2) And that he DISOBEYED Allah Almighty and
did fall into grievous error.

Now, my brother, are you going to judge Hz. Adam (peace be upon him) with same standards that you are applying to Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)?

Her intentions and of those with her were to reconcile between two parties, and to convince Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) that he must make Qisas on the killers of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him). There is not a single hadith in Sunni literature that anybody challenged the rightfulness of Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) Khilafat.

The Sunni position is this: Even if their intentions were right, their actions were wrong. They should have given
Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) more time that he had asked for. He had acknowledged that the scoundrels who had murdered Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) had infiltrated into his group and were very powerful. He needed more time to gain upper hand.

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

She once again came out of her house riding a mule and denied the burial of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) beside the grave of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The history has recorded that standoff too brother when arrows were either aimed at the coffin of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) or either thrown at his coffin. I haven't heard any report where she asked forgiveness for this specific act. So if we accept that she repented once again after Jamal, it becomes null & void once again when she came out of her house riding a mule 2nd time, commanding the arch men to aim the coffin of  Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

That’s a fabrication:

I got the following from the Net. I am posting it here – It explains the event

Quote

 

Past Scholar Imam ‘Alī ibn al-Ḥasan ibn Hibat Allāh Ibn ‘Asakair [رحمه الله] gave the following account:

Indeed Hasan b. ‘Ali b. Abi Talib [رضي الله عنه] became sick in the stomach. So when he knew death was near he sent someone to A’isha [رضي الله عنها] the wife of the Prophet [صلى الله عليه وسلم] to seek permission to be buried in her house alongside the Prophet [صلى الله عليه وسلم] so she said: “Yes, there is one spot left for a grave, I would love it for myself to be buried there but I’ll choose you to have it.”

So when the tribe of Umayyah heard they grabbed their weapons and complained and Marwan b. Al-Hakm [رضي الله عنه] was the one organizing that so he said: “By Allah if ‘Uthman b. ‘Affan was not buried in Baqi’ then will Hasan be buried with the Messenger of Allah [صلى الله عليه وسلم].”

Therefore, the tribe of Hashim grabbed weapons and desired to fight and this news reached Al-Hasan b. ‘Ali [رضي الله عنه] so he sent someone to the tribe of Hashim and his envoy told them that Al-Hasan [رضي الله عنه] says: “If you will end up with this affair (fighting) then I am in no need of it. Bury me beside the grave of my mother (Lady Fatimah [رضي الله عنها]) in Al-Baqi”

Therefore, he was buried beside Lady Fatimah [رضي الله عنها] the daughter of the Messenger of Allah [صلى الله عليه وسلم].  Source: History Of Damascus by Ibn ‘Asakir

 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

We have a very strong case against her brother. And according to our history books as well as hadith books, she has presented herself as enemy of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

On 5/7/2022 at 10:08 PM, Debate follower said:

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

You again missed my point, I am saying my dear brother that this Quran has its existence in "Lawh al Mehfooz", it is with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Ummil Kitab. And the Quran contains the verses which contains the phrase:

يَا نِسَاءَ النَّبِيِّ

So whether the physical relation may got terminated, the very person can still be identified as "wife of Prophet"

Indeed, my respected brother, if one was to go with your history and hadith books, she will definitely come out as the vilest person in Islamic history.  To be fair, I spent some time to read history of events from Shia sources. I was really shocked to see the amount of hatred towards those very close to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) apart from Shia version of Ahlul Bayt. 

In Shia version of history, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) seems to be surrounded by most vilest of people. All conspiring day and night to undermine him in his Blessed mission. 

It seems that his choice of marrying women of good character was faulty. His choice of friends lacked refinement. As the famous saying goes: “A man’s character is recognised by the company he keeps.”

It was quite depressing for me to read this. Trust me, it left some nauseating effect on me. To me it felt like I reading completely different version of history of Muslims!!!!

I am sure you are aware that earlier Shia Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) all named their children Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. Even Imams (may be pleased with them) named their daughters Aisha!!!

4th imam Imam Zeinal-Abidin daughter - Aisha bint Ali Zayn al-Abidin; 6th Imam Jafar as-Sadiq - Aisha bint Jafar as-Sadiq; 7th Imam Musa al-Kadhim - Aisha bint Musa al-Kadhim; - 8th Imam Ali al-Rida - Aisha bint Ali al-Rida; 10th Imam Ali al-Hadi - Aisha bint Ali al-Hadi

Now, dear brother, why would the eminent imams (may Allah be pleased with them) name their daughters with that of vilest enemy of Ahlul Bayt?

If you were to read history of Iranian population’s forceful and brutal conversion from Overwhelmingly Sunni nation to 12er Shia within matter of few generations. Mullah Baqir Majlisi introduced public cursing of first 3 Khalifs and Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with them). From here on stories were written of their vilest ‘crimes’. From then on, it was prohibited for Shia to name their children by their names. That’s why you will not find any Shia with these names.

It was known that Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) disliked Hz. Ali’s (may Allah be pleased with him) action in not defending her honour in the incident of Ifk. It was at a very low point in her life.

It is said that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) consulted with Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) besides others. Hz. Usama b. Zayd (may Allah be pleased with him) defended Hz. Aisha and Hz. Ali said to him: “O Allah’s Apostle! Allah does not impose restrictions on you, and there are plenty of women other than her. If, however, you ask her slave girl, she will tell you the truth!” (Bukhari)

On 5/8/2022 at 9:09 PM, Cool said:

I mean people will not forget who were the wives of Prophet in this world nor the verses of Quran mentioning the wives will be erased. And if any wife is burning in hell, getting the promised الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ according to 33:30, she will be identified as a person who was the wife of Prophet in this world. Same is the case of wives of Nuh (عليه السلام) & Lut (عليه السلام), they were mentioned as wives in Quran and Quran has its level of existence in higher level of existence, the verses will remain there:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ

Wives of these two prophets were made example for disbelievers, in this world and in thereafter. The identity of the two ladies will remain 

امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ

Brother, allow me to Quote myself again:

 

QUOTE MYSELF POSTED ON SATURDAY 7TH MAY

"Indeed, wives of Prophets Nuh and Lut (peace be upon them both) were their wives in this world but NOT in the next world.

In Hereafter, All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum! I will prove this from the blessed Qur’an later in this post.

“Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi: When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

Let’s analyse the following statement:

“By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.”

Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) is giving testimony by taking oath on Allah Almighty that, as Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in this World she is the wife in the Hereafter.

1) If you were to ask any neutral person who doesn’t have any sectarian contamination, “where is Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) now at the present moment reading the above statement”.

I am certain the answer will be that at the present moment she is with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) just as she was in this World.

2) By stating that “By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.” Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) is extoling and acknowledging the high status of Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) as the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in this World and in the Hereafter.

Having said that (extoling and acknowledging the high status) Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) starts the next sentence with ‘BUT’ which means that after having praised her, he is going to fault her. That’s what he stated:

“But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)."

He is clearly warning the people that Hz Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) stance of coming out against Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is WRONG as Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was on the RIGHT. And that she must not be supported just because she is the wife of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

So, the test for the people is to choose to follow who is on the Right and not those who were on the WRONG (even though they have very close relationship with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

When Worldly relationships are negated in Hereafter

Now to prove to you that: “All relationships are negated if one person enters Jannah and the other is dispatched to Jahanum!

Surah Hud from verse 42 to verse 46

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Nuh called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers. verse 42 Surah Hud

He said: I will betake myself for refuge to a mountain that shall protect me from the water. Nuh said: There is no protector today from Allah's punishment but He Who has mercy; and a wave intervened between them, so he was of the drowned verse 43 Surah Hud

And it was said: O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said: Away with the unjust people verse 44 Surah Hud

And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges. verse 45 Surah Hud

Allah's answer is:

(Allah replied) “O Noah! He is certainly NOT of your family—he was entirely of unrighteous conduct. So do not ask Me about what you have no knowledge of! I warn you so you do not fall into ignorance.” -- verse 46 Surah Hud

So, it is a Divine Decree that any relationship in this World is annulled (ceases to exist) in the next World if the two ‘parties’ end up in opposite sides.

So, if someone’s spouse in this World ends up in hell in the Hereafter, he/she WON’T be counted as a spouse in the Hereafter.

Take the example of Prophet Nuh’s (peace be upon him) Son.

And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges - verse 45 Surah Hud

Here Prophet Nuh (peace be upon him) is claiming his Son and that he is part of his family.

Allah Almighty replies:  And please note the tone of Allah Almighty’s reply!!!

(Allah replied) “O Noah! He is certainly NOT of your familyhe was entirely of unrighteous conduct. So do not ask Me about what you have no knowledge of! I warn you so you do not fall into ignorance.” -- verse 46 Surah Hud

1) He is certainly NOT of your family
2) he was entirely of unrighteous conduct
3) So do not ask Me about what you have no knowledge of!
4) I warn you so you do not fall into ignorance

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