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Why did rasool announce khilafat of mawla Ali in Ghadeer Khum not in Arafat

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On 3/13/2022 at 11:32 PM, Debate follower said:

You have not responded to this:

?????????

I have clearly accepted 12 vers are a minority, regardless of other sub sects. The methodology  of the other sub sects on Wiliyat/ Imamate dose have any consequences on our creed. 

The 12vers do not endorse the concept that have been adapted by other offshoots. Unlike the;  unsound and weak pretentious argument used by Sunnism, in relation to being the majority  which is  a fictitious argument.

The fact is, "Majority Concept" is a blatant innovation in Islam that cannot be verified by any religious text. 

Historically, Al Sunnah Jammat was a creation who were trying to get dominance over other offshoots in the time were there was many other sects, moreover, Imam Shafi condemned Imam Malik on many occasion in relation to jurisprudence matters. 

Have you ever studied fiqi masala in your own school of thought? Because there is vast amount of differences amongst your own four school of thought. 

 

 

 

 

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On 3/14/2022 at 10:25 PM, Debate follower said:

Borntowitnesstruth  -   Beating about the Bush’ is not appropriate here but you “cannot see the wood for the trees” would be more apt in this situation.

There is a famous saying that: “When you point a finger at someone else, there are (your) three pointing back at you.”

Trust me, last thing I would want have is to have a lesson how to read – later you will see why.

You can be as cocky as you want and pat yourself on your own back that “your job is satisfactorily done” egged on by others on the sideline.

Keep in mind this debate is followed by hundreds of viewers and will be read by thousands in future if they venture here.

They will be the real judge as to who is misreading and misrepresenting the words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). I have posted the letter in discussion below.  It is in 3 paragraphs. (I have numbered them for clarity).

Letter 6: To Mu`awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan

1)“Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Imam it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

 

Historically and factually, Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  did pledge allegiance to any of the first three Caliphs. 

You have a habitual trait of misconstruing the facts.  letter 6  is simply laying out the criteria as to how the caliphs were chosen. 

 

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On 3/16/2022 at 3:52 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

You were the first one who called me cocky don't forget that. I know how the kind like you respond when they fail.

I don’t forget what I write. Cocky means ‘overconfident’, ‘smug’ and it is not degrading but stating one’s mindset. Calling someone a fool is.  Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said to the fact: “If some abuses the other and he doesn’t respond in kind, then that abuse is thrown back in the face of the abuser.”

This is a Shia – Sunni Dialogue section and of course, we have our differences and some really serious. We should be civil and that’s the demand of our religion.

On 3/16/2022 at 3:52 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

If you accept that meaning then do you admit those who fought Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have displeased Allah!!!!!!

Of course, this the standard Sunni position – they will be held to account made to explain the reason for their deeds and face consequences of their actions. We, Sunnis consider Hz. Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as the 4th Righteous Khalif.

On personal note, I have stated this before in other threads that: I have one son and have named him Ali. Hoping and praying that he lives up to this great name. 

On 3/16/2022 at 4:04 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Both Hazsat Ayesha and Hazrat Umm-e-Salimma narrates that when this verse was revealed they moved toward Prophet so that they may be included in the people of the House but Prophet stopped them and said Ahlebait are Imam Ali, Lady Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain were only amongst Ahlebait. These are your sahih hadith to back this up with verses of Holy Quran read verse of Mubahila where only family of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) was taken by Prophet (pbuhhp) against Christians. There were no wives with Prophet (pbuhhp) but only his Ahlebait.

This hadith is Sahih, the verse of Tathir was revealed concerning the wives and their instructions regarding purifying them from sins, the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) encircled Ali and Fatima and his grandchildren and made dua that they also be included in the purification since they were also part Ahlul Bayt.

The verse "Allah only intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the house of Lady Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her). Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." Sahih al-Tirmidhi 663

This hadith shows that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) made dua with his cloak asking that Hz. Ali and Hz. Fatima Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all) be included in the purification AFTER the verse was revealed. If the verse was already referring to them, then why would the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) make dua asking that Allah Almighty grant him what He literally just granted them? This shows that the verse was originally revealed concerning the wives, referring to them as Ahlul Bayt

Also, the Blessed Qur’an uses the Ahlul Bayt for wives and family.

When the angels came to Prophet Ibrahim (peace with him) to give him the news of a son, they greeted and addressed his wife:  The mercy of Allah and His blessings are on you, O people of the house

 

الَتْ يَا وَيْلَتَى أَأَلِدُ وَأَنَاْ عَجُوزٌ وَهَـذَا بَعْلِي شَيْخًا إِنَّ هَـذَا لَشَيْءٌ عَجِيبٌ

She said, "O wonder! shall I bear a son when I am an extremely old woman and this my husband an extremely old man? Most surely this is a strange thing." (Quran 11:72)

قَالُواْ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ رَحْمَتُ اللّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ

They said, "Do you wonder at Allah's bidding? The mercy of Allah and His blessings are on you, O people of the house, surely He is Praised, Glorious." (Quran 11:73)

Similarly, in Surah Qasas, reading the story of prophet Musa (peace be upon him) as an infant, the following verse is encountered,

وَحَرَّمْنَا عَلَيْهِ الْمَرَاضِعَ مِن قَبْلُ فَقَالَتْ هَلْ أَدُلُّكُمْ عَلَى أَهْلِ بَيْتٍ يَكْفُلُونَهُ لَكُمْ وَهُمْ لَهُ نَاصِحُونَ

And We ordained that he refused to suck any foster mother before, so she said, "Shall I point out to you the people of the house who will take care of him for you, and will be good counsellors to him?" (Quran28:12)

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On 3/16/2022 at 4:13 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

You admit that Prophet said they are purified but not infallible. Lolz, where does it says that purity means all things except infallibility and uncleanness means every bad thing except fallibility. 

I won't emphasize you to listen to Prophet since you aren't listening anyway. 

You must first understand both terms – Infallible and Purified – these don’t mean the same thing.

Infallible - incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

Purified - the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong.

In Arabic Infallible is Masoum – which Shia mostly use with their imams.

“You admit that Prophet said they are purified but not infallible.” THIS STANDS

On 3/16/2022 at 4:13 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I won't emphasize you to listen to Prophet since you aren't listening anyway. 

I do listen and obey the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as the Blessed Qur’an has commanded me and through the TRUE instructions passed on through authentic hadith literature

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On 3/16/2022 at 5:45 PM, power said:

I have clearly accepted 12 vers are a minority, regardless of other sub sects. The methodology  of the other sub sects on Wiliyat/ Imamate dose have any consequences on our creed. 

The 12vers do not endorse the concept that have been adapted by other offshoots. Unlike the;  unsound and weak pretentious argument used by Sunnism, in relation to being the majority  which is  a fictitious argument.

Historically, 12ers Shias were never the main body of Shiaism. 12ers were the last off-shoot of Shiasm

The first off-shoot was the 5ers, then came the 7ers and 12ers came after ‘disappearing of the 12th Imam.

Up to 1500s CE the Zaydis (5ers) and Ismailis (7ers) were more dominate influential among Shia sub-sets and ruled many areas for considerable time.

With coming of Safavids in power Iran, not only did Safavids using brutal savagery convert overwhelming Sunni Iran to Shia. They adopted 12er Shiaism as the state religion and wiped-out Ismailism and Zaydism from Iran and surrounding areas.

On 3/16/2022 at 5:45 PM, power said:

The fact is, "Majority Concept" is a blatant innovation in Islam that cannot be verified by any religious text. 

Narrated from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah will not cause my ummah to agree on falsehood; the hand of Allah is with the jamaa‘ah (the main body of the Muslims).At-Tirmidhi (2167)

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (6:153) Source: Musnad Aḥmad 4423

(Quoting myself) I had posted this on December 3, 2021 – It’s on page 3

Quote

 

See the following Sermon from Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) talking about Majority!

Now, let’s refer to Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha (quoted below)

Certainly, you are the most evil of all persons and are those whom Satan has put on his lines and thrown out into his wayless land. With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Please conduct an experiment and go to some unbiased person, say a Christian or a Hindu who have fairly good general knowledge and ask them to read it. Once they have read it well and understood it. And keep it in mind that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was very articulate and eloquent and never talked in riddles. Now ask this person: “Who do you think Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is referring as the great majority (of Muslims) who have Allah's hand (of protection)”?

You will ALWAYS get the answer that be with the great majority of Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you were to refer to Shia commentaries, they would say:

they ones who love him too much are Ghulaat - ‘exaggerators', 'extremists

they ones who hate him too much are Nasibis - "those who have hatred"

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course – these of course are the 12er Shias – great majority (of Muslims)!

What about Sunnis? Conveniently they are lumped with the Nasibis!!!!! How conveniently done! Without any qualms whatsoever!

90% of Muslims lumped up with Nasibis!!??????!!!!!

 

So, the Majority Concept is not an Invention – but keeping away from other sects.

On 3/16/2022 at 5:45 PM, power said:

Historically, Al Sunnah Jammat was a creation who were trying to get dominance over other offshoots in the time were there was many other sects, moreover, Imam Shafi condemned Imam Malik on many occasion in relation to jurisprudence matters. 

Scholars do disagree with each other many times and sometimes seriously.

Have there not been serious conflicts in fact bloody conflicts with-in 12er Shias – Usulis vs Akhbaris??????

See from Shiachat:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/uploads/documents/dispute_nature2.pdf

Muhammad Baqir al-Bihbahani Usuli scholar serious conflict with al-Shaykh 'Abd Allah al-Samahiji al-Bahrayni Akhbari scholar in 1700s

Isn’t there tussle between Hawzas of Najaf and that of Qoms at the present times for dominance within 12er Shiaism?

Also, isn’t there a great rivalry within 12er Shiaism about concept of Wilayat al Faqih?

On 3/16/2022 at 5:45 PM, power said:

Have you ever studied fiqi masala in your own school of thought? Because there is vast amount of differences amongst your own four school of thought.

It is not vast amount as you want to make it out. It’s on Methodology and not on principles – that’s why they are called ‘Schools of thought’.  And we are allowed to adapt the Methodology of each other and recognise each Methodology on par (as equal and valid) as the other.

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On 3/16/2022 at 5:45 PM, power said:

The fact is, "Majority Concept" is a blatant innovation in Islam that cannot be verified by any religious text. 

In fact we have hadith attesting the 'Great Majority Concept'.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah will never let my Ummah agree upon misguidance, and the hand of Allah is over the group (Jama'ah), so follow the great mass of believers, and whoever dissents from them departs to hell”.  al-Hakim (1/116), and al-Dhahabi

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him said, “Verily Allah will not make my Community -- or Muhammad's Community -- agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest Congregation.” Tirmidhi 2256

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On 3/17/2022 at 9:27 PM, power said:

Historically and factually, Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  did pledge allegiance to any of the first three Caliphs. 

You have a habitual trait of misconstruing the facts.  letter 6  is simply laying out the criteria as to how the caliphs were chosen. 

I take exception to your remark "that I have habitual trait of misconstruing the facts.

Only if you read the Letter 6 in Nahjul Balagha without sectarian bent:

Only if you had read my post posted on Monday at 01:29 PM in reply to brother Borntowitnesstruth in this thread Page 5

I am quoting it here:

Quote

 

I am profoundly astounded and also deeply dismayed how conveniently and ingeniously you are twisting the words uttered by Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) without feeling any guilt or fear of consequences!!!!! 

Can I safely assume taqiyah is in play here?

Now let’s examine the letter in detail:

1) You wrote: In letter 6 of Nehjul balagha, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) explains the sunni view of Imam or caliph

Completely wrong!!!!! Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) wrote this letter to Letter 6: To Mu`awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan legitimising his own election. Where did he say that he is giving Sunni view of imam or khalif?

2) You wrote: and says that since you took bayah under the same conditions as first three caliphs

Mu`awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan never took any bayah under the same conditions as first three Khalifs (may Allah be pleased with them)!!!!!!

On the contrary, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is justifying his election on the same grounds and conditions as that of his pious predecessors (may Allah be pleased with them).

This is what he said: “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.”

See, how you have misrepresented his words!

3) He further added: (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar

Here, he is stating that same people elected him those who elected those before him.

4) He further added:  If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Here, he is clearly stating his election will deemed to mean Allah’s Pleasure as was with those who elected before him.

And most importantly Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) used the term IMAM for them – He was knowledgeable person and he knew fully well all the meanings of the word IMAM and the implications of using this word!!!!

 

Pray, please do show me where am I 'misconstruing the facts.'

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is not only "simply laying out the criteria as to how the caliphs were chosen." But justifying his own election on the same basis and mostly importantly said that all the elections would "be deemed to mean Allah Almighty's PLEASURE!!!!

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6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah will never let my Ummah agree upon misguidance, and the hand of Allah is over the group (Jama'ah), so follow the great mass of believers, and whoever dissents from them departs to hell”.  al-Hakim (1/116), and al-Dhahabi

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him said, “Verily Allah will not make my Community -- or Muhammad's Community -- agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest Congregation.” Tirmidhi 2256

Salam this is about pious  people who have obeyed order of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) before & after demise which we know that there has been hypocrites  & people who has disobeyed  from order of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which there are examples  which second  caliph & a group of companions  have disobeyed order of prophet (pbu) in occasions  likewise Treaty of Hudaybiyyah wich majority of them have refrained from shaving their head after signing  treaty which these people & hypocrites  have agreed on rulership of 3 caliphs by opposing  order of Allah & prophet  Muhammad about announcement  of Amir almuminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) as his successor  & first caliph but on the other hand majority  of pious & loyal people likewise Salman  Farsi(Muhammadi) (رضي الله عنه) , Miqdad (رضي الله عنه) & Abudhar (رضي الله عنه) & Ammra Yasser have supported Amir almuminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) against  oath breakers & hypocrites who have choosed three caliphs.

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course, this the standard Sunni position – they will be held to account made to explain the reason for their deeds and face consequences of their actions. We, Sunnis consider Hz. Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as the 4th Righteous Khalif.

How you justify cursing of

6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Have there not been serious conflicts in fact bloody conflicts with-in 12er Shias – Usulis vs Akhbaris??????

we had only soft conflict of scholars  which no group of Shia whether Usuli or Akhbari Or Zaydi or Ismailis have not killed each other in opposition  to sunnis which they you have had bloody wars with each other.

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The verse "Allah only intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the house of Lady Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her). Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." Sahih al-Tirmidhi 663

This hadith shows that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) made dua with his cloak asking that Hz. Ali and Hz. Fatima Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all) be included in the purification AFTER the verse was revealed. If the verse was already referring to them, then why would the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) make dua asking that Allah Almighty grant him what He literally just granted them? This shows that the verse was originally revealed concerning the wives, referring to them as Ahlul Bayt

Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) clearly  has not been mentioned as part of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so therefore  rest wives of people  Muhammad (pbu) have not been mentioned as part of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)  which you do anytype of gymnastics  to attach Ayesha to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) .

 

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Historically, 12ers Shias were never the main body of Shiaism. 12ers were the last off-shoot of Shiasm

The first off-shoot was the 5ers, then came the 7ers and 12ers came after ‘disappearing of the 12th Imam.

Up to 1500s CE the Zaydis (5ers) and Ismailis (7ers) were more dominate influential among Shia sub-sets and ruled many areas for considerable time.

All of 5ers, then came the 7ers has belived to existance of 12 Imams  which our disagreement with 5ers the 7ers is about matter of lineage which 5ers  belive  to continuing  it from Zayd(رضي الله عنه) & 7ers have believed  to continuing from Ismail(رضي الله عنه) elder son of Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) .

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

With coming of Safavids in power Iran, not only did Safavids using brutal savagery convert overwhelming Sunni Iran to Shia. They adopted 12er Shiaism as the state religion and wiped-out Ismailism and Zaydism from Iran and surrounding areas.

likewise other Salafis & wahabists  you are suffering from Safavid  phobia.

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course, this the standard Sunni position – they will be held to account made to explain the reason for their deeds and face consequences of their actions. We, Sunnis consider Hz. Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as the 4th Righteous Khalif.

How you justify cursing Amir almuminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) by Ummayids  for about 60 years & reconizing him as 4th caliph by Mamun the Abbasid king.

 

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You must first understand both terms – Infallible and Purified – these don’t mean the same thing.

Infallible - incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

Purified - the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong.

In Arabic Infallible is Masoum – which Shia mostly use with their imams.

“You admit that Prophet said they are purified but not infallible.” THIS STANDS

I do listen and obey the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as the Blessed Qur’an has commanded me and through the TRUE instructions passed on through authentic hadith literature

 

You have wrong interpretation  from Infallibity & purity because you don't  belive to free will & knowledge  of prophets & Imams which your interpretation  from infallibility  just matches with angles  who don't  have free will & ability for commiting  sin but on the other hand infallibility  & purification  of Prophets (pbu) & Imams(عليه السلام)  is result of their knowledge which they have choosen infallibity by knowledge  by free will & knowing boundaries  of free will.

"infallibility" is the result of the infallible person's knowledge of the consequences of the sin, that is to say that the infallible person’s knowledge and awareness of the sin's consequences is such that he/she is never conquered and overwhelmed by the rest of the faculties he/she possesses, but has dominance over them.

 An infallible is one who, by the grace of God, is free from all forms of mistake and error, and does not commit even the smallest of sins. However, one who is infallible isn't forced to be so, he/she chooses to. What causes the infallible to voluntarily prevent making mistakes and committing sins, is the ownership of certain knowledge and traits in that person.

Quote
What is the meaning of being infallible?
question
What is the meaning of being infallible?
Concise answer

Allamah Tabatabai states: "Infallibility" means the presence of a quality in the infallible person that protects him or her from doing what is not permissible (e.g. sin or error)".[1] It should be noted that from his viewpoint God's prophets (and all of the imams and specially guided people) possess the absolute infallibility which covers many instances.[2] According to him, "infallibility" is the result of the infallible person's knowledge of the consequences of the sin, that is to say that the infallible person’s knowledge and awareness of the sin's consequences is such that he/she is never conquered and overwhelmed by the rest of the faculties he/she possesses, but has dominance over them.[3]

 

Concerning "Infallibility", there is another theory that says: "As a result of the infallible’s high levels of knowledge towards God almighty and owing to their affection for God's beauty and perfection, they do not allow themselves to take even a step against His will, and their love and affection for the Deity and the perception of His beauty and glory and their awareness of His endless blessings upon them, brings to their soul such humility and modesty that never allows them to even think of sin let alone committing it".[4]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1885

Quote

Please explain the concept of infallibility. Is it possible for anyone besides the infallible imams (عليه السلام) to be infallible?
question
Please explain the concept of infallibility. Is it possible for anyone besides the infallible imams (عليه السلام) to be infallible?
Concise answer
In a theological dictionary, one the possesses infallibility would be defined as an infallible. An infallible is one who, by the grace of God, is free from all forms of mistake and error, and does not commit even the smallest of sins. However, one who is infallible isn't forced to be so, he/she chooses to. What causes the infallible to voluntarily prevent making mistakes and committing sins, is the ownership of certain knowledge and traits in that person. Such possessions include: a profound understanding of the reality of this world as well as the good and bad, unique approval through the grace of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the ability to make use of the Holy Spirit (a pure and holy spirit that always accompanies the infallible, and other possession as well.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1954

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15 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam

“And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or (at least) return it equally.” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:86)

“The rights of a Muslim upon another are five: returning greetings, visiting the sick, following the funeral procession, responding to invitations and offering ‘Tashmeet’ for one who sneezes.” [Bukhari and Muslim]

Wa ‘alaykum  Salaam warematullahe

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You must first understand both terms – Infallible and Purified – these don’t mean the same thing.

Infallible - incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

Purified - the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong.

In Arabic Infallible is Masoum – which Shia mostly use with their imams.

“You admit that Prophet said they are purified but not infallible.” THIS STANDS

I do listen and obey the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as the Blessed Qur’an has commanded me and through the TRUE instructions passed on through authentic hadith literature

 

You have wrong interpretation  from Infallibity & purity because you don't  belive to free will & knowledge  of prophets & Imams which due to your wrong interpretation  then so you put prophet  Muhammad (pbu) & rest of prophets nauzubillah lower than any Jinn which in similar fashion you put cursed Shaitan in higher position  than prophet  Muhammad (pbu) so therefore you have confirmed  diobeying cursed Shaitan & his idea about his superiority over prophet Adam(عليه السلام) & his descendants .

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29 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

“And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or (at least) return it equally.” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:86)

“The rights of a Muslim upon another are five: returning greetings, visiting the sick, following the funeral procession, responding to invitations and offering ‘Tashmeet’ for one who sneezes.” [Bukhari and Muslim]

Wa ‘alaykum  Salaam warematullahe

'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh' 

First to Say Salam
Imam al-Sadiq (a): "the one who starts saying Salam, is closer to God and His apostle."

whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah' there are 20 good for him, and whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh' there are 30 good for him." Based on Islamic traditions,

Quote

Audible Salam
Imam al-Baqir (a) says, "Indeed God likes Salam to be audible." Explaining this hadith al-Fayd al-Kashani writes: "it means whenever you met someone, say Salam, regardless to what kind of person he is."

Observing the Status
Imam al-Sadiq (a): "the young should greet the old, the one who is passing should greet the one who is sitting, a small group should greet the larger group."

First to Say Salam
Imam al-Sadiq (a): "the one who starts saying Salam, is closer to God and His apostle."

Proper Salam
Imam al-Sadiq (a): "whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum', there are 10 good [deeds' reward] for him and whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah' there are 20 good for him, and whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh' there are 30 good for him." Based on Islamic traditions, it is better to respond Salam or a greeting by a more complete or at least the same phrase. The Qur'an reads: "When you are greeted with a salute, greet with a better one than it, or return it; indeed, Allah takes account of all things".(Qur'an 4:86)

Moreover, shaking hands, while saying Salam, with the one who is not going to travel and hugging the one who wants to travel is mustahab (recommende

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Salam

https://www.al-islam.org/simplified-islamic-laws-youth-and-young-adults-sayyid-ali-hussaini-sistani/rules-greeting-one

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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I don’t forget what I write. Cocky means ‘overconfident’, ‘smug’ and it is not degrading but stating one’s mindset. Calling someone a fool is.  Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said to the fact: “If some abuses the other and he doesn’t respond in kind, then that abuse is thrown back in the face of the abuser.”

I have heard many other bad meanings too. You came up and started getting bad names to me so teach yourself how to be civilised and fool isn't abuse, it's actually mindset that people show when they can't prove their ground.

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course, this the standard Sunni position – they will be held to account made to explain the reason for their deeds and face consequences of their actions. We, Sunnis consider Hz. Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as the 4th Righteous Khalif.

 

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

This hadith is Sahih, the verse of Tathir was revealed concerning the wives and their instructions regarding purifying them from sins, the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) encircled Ali and Fatima and his grandchildren and made dua that they also be included in the purification since they were also part Ahlul Bayt.

You agreed those who fought Imam Ali displeased Allah and you again said verse of purification descended for wives of Prophet. You first agreement disproves the second that verse of purification was descended for wives of Prophet because one of them Hazrat Ayesha fought Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and displeased Allah. Do you accept that?

 

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The verse "Allah only intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the house of Lady Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her). Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." Sahih al-Tirmidhi 663

This hadith shows that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) made dua with his cloak asking that Hz. Ali and Hz. Fatima Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all) be included in the purification AFTER the verse was revealed. If the verse was already referring to them, then why would the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) make dua asking that Allah Almighty grant him what He literally just granted them? This shows that the verse was originally revealed concerning the wives, referring to them as Ahlul Bayt

Dua was made before revelation that is why revelation came in answer. Dua is question, revelation is answer. Now you know that this verse was actually revealed for Imam Ali, Lady Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain along with Holy Prophet (PBUHHP). Secondly, you read in hadith that Hazrat Umm-e-Salima was stopped and praised but was not included in Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Also, the Blessed Qur’an uses the Ahlul Bayt for wives and family.

When the angels came to Prophet Ibrahim (peace with him) to give him the news of a son, they greeted and addressed his wife:

Not necessarily, the wife of Prophet Lut and Wife of Prophet Noah and his son were not among Ahlebait of those prophets. This designation has some merits and they does not include everyone without being weighed.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You must first understand both terms – Infallible and Purified – these don’t mean the same thing.

Infallible - incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

Purified - the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong.

In Arabic Infallible is Masoum – which Shia mostly use with their imams.

“You admit that Prophet said they are purified but not infallible.” THIS STANDS

This made me laugh. To us both are different words telling one and same meaning. The quality of making right decisions whether you call it infallible or pure, we mean one and same.

Edited by Borntowitnesstruth
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

In fact we have hadith attesting the 'Great Majority Concept'.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah will never let my Ummah agree upon misguidance, and the hand of Allah is over the group (Jama'ah), so follow the great mass of believers, and whoever dissents from them departs to hell”.  al-Hakim (1/116), and al-Dhahabi

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him said, “Verily Allah will not make my Community -- or Muhammad's Community -- agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest Congregation.” Tirmidhi 2256

This hadith is contrary to Quran. If largest community and Quran differs on an issue, largest community cannot be followed. Likewise, it is for a righteous Imam and largest community.

Recall a hadith that the community was reminded to hold fast Ahlebait and Quran. Thus, Quran and Ahlebait are more weighty things than masses of believers.

Edited by Borntowitnesstruth
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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

On personal note, I have stated this before in other threads that: I have one son and have named him Ali. Hoping and praying that he lives up to this great name. 

My prayers with little Ali. May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) makes him into a great person for the sake of Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

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On 3/18/2022 at 11:29 PM, Debate follower said:

Historically, 12ers Shias were never the main body of Shiaism. 12ers were the last off-shoot of Shiasm

The first off-shoot was the 5ers, then came the 7ers and 12ers came after ‘disappearing of the 12th Imam.

Up to 1500s CE the Zaydis (5ers) and Ismailis (7ers) were more dominate influential among Shia sub-sets and ruled many areas for considerable time.

With coming of Safavids in power Iran, not only did Safavids using brutal savagery convert overwhelming Sunni Iran to Shia. They adopted 12er Shiaism as the state religion and wiped-out Ismailism and Zaydism from Iran and surrounding areas.

Narrated from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah will not cause my ummah to agree on falsehood; the hand of Allah is with the jamaa‘ah (the main body of the Muslims).At-Tirmidhi (2167)

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (6:153) Source: Musnad Aḥmad 4423

(Quoting myself) I had posted this on December 3, 2021 – It’s on page 3

So, the Majority Concept is not an Invention – but keeping away from other sects.

Scholars do disagree with each other many times and sometimes seriously.

Have there not been serious conflicts in fact bloody conflicts with-in 12er Shias – Usulis vs Akhbaris??????

See from Shiachat:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/uploads/documents/dispute_nature2.pdf

Muhammad Baqir al-Bihbahani Usuli scholar serious conflict with al-Shaykh 'Abd Allah al-Samahiji al-Bahrayni Akhbari scholar in 1700s

Isn’t there tussle between Hawzas of Najaf and that of Qoms at the present times for dominance within 12er Shiaism?

Also, isn’t there a great rivalry within 12er Shiaism about concept of Wilayat al Faqih?

It is not vast amount as you want to make it out. It’s on Methodology and not on principles – that’s why they are called ‘Schools of thought’.  And we are allowed to adapt the Methodology of each other and recognise each Methodology on par (as equal and valid) as the other.

 

I suppose in there defence of Zaydis and Ismailis, their claim of wiliyat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  has concrete bases supported by abundance of religious text. 

 

In addition to Ahlul Sunnah claim its absent from any religious text. Moreover, Ahlul Sunnah creation was at least 150-200 after the demise of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) . Where as the concept of party of Ali (عليه السلام) was dictated by Rasulallah himself. 

 

Why did  Ahlul Sunnah  sect appear so late in time after the Prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) demise?, And where were “Ahlul Sunnah  before the existence of these Shias sects?  and what religion were you following, and to whom were they referring to? "Who were you exactly"? Its evident  from historical accounts  there was turmoil early in the Muslims  Umaah during Bani ummayah and Bani  Abbass era they brought about many innovation. 

 

I mean who were you following before your creed was created? Please articulate concisely of the Imams you were following prior to the inception of your institution? 

 

Historically, there aren't any tradition that either support your creed from any Prophetic tradition, unlike Shiism which is supported by Quran and hadith. 

 

If the concept of the "Majority  Being Truthful"  then who was the Majority prior to your creed? And why did  Abul Hassan Ashari needed to create a parallel sect to the "Majority Of The  Muslim "? Was this a deviation or a innovation? 

 

Moreover, were not the Mutazila  and other offshoot were  the biggest sect prior to  Ahlul Sunnah? Also, the founder of Ahlul Sunnah Abul Hassan Ashari was a devout Mutazila? Who then later abandon Mutazila sect and became AL Ashari. creed then became Ahlul Sunnah sect. Its evident from historical perspective  there were many deviant Sunnis sect prior to Ahlul Sunnah hence the creation of Ahlul Sunnah sect. 

 

 The evidence suggest that the previous Muslims were being misled by the ruling authority, then how long dose the deviation in Muslim Umaah go back?  What is the point of the reference of this deviation  in your theology or ideology goes back to ? I guess it is safe to say the Idea of Majority being the truthful never existed in so early stages of Islam! 

 

And what about the Maturidis are they not another branch of Sunni School of thought who had bitter rivalry between these two schools of thought? Am i right to say that Ahlul Sunnah is amalgamation of various components of different  schools of thought? 

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On 3/19/2022 at 12:15 AM, Debate follower said:

I take exception to your remark "that I have habitual trait of misconstruing the facts.

Only if you read the Letter 6 in Nahjul Balagha without sectarian bent:

Only if you had read my post posted on Monday at 01:29 PM in reply to brother Borntowitnesstruth in this thread Page 5

I am quoting it here:

Pray, please do show me where am I 'misconstruing the facts.'

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is not only "simply laying out the criteria as to how the caliphs were chosen." But justifying his own election on the same basis and mostly importantly said that all the elections would "be deemed to mean Allah Almighty's PLEASURE!!!!

Historically, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never ever swore allegiance any of the first three Caliphs. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was absent when Abu Bakr was chosen in Saqifa, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not present when Umar was selected by Abu Bakr as matter of fact there was no election for Umar, he was designated by only one person that was  Abu Bakr. 

Uthmam was also selected by the means of 6 people committee. So how do you reconcile  these facts with Allah pleasure?  

 

 

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On 3/19/2022 at 7:31 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh' 

First to Say Salam
Imam al-Sadiq (a): "the one who starts saying Salam, is closer to God and His apostle."

whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah' there are 20 good for him, and whoever says 'al-Salam 'Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh' there are 30 good for him." Based on Islamic traditions,

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam warehmatullahe wabarakatuhu

May Allah Almighty reward you with 30 hassanaats and more.

I am sure the great Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq (may Allah be pleased with him) surely must have said something about using abusive language and calling others what they are not.

You have been for a sometime and constantly using offensive words against your ‘opponents’, even when I had asked you to refrain, you persisted.  So, I had told you that from then on, I’ll ignore your posts and not respond. This still stands

On 3/19/2022 at 6:41 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

likewise other Salafis & wahabists  you are suffering from Safavid  phobia.

There you go.  You can’t help it, can you? I can easily respond in kind but my manners wouldn’t allow me.

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On 3/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I have heard many other bad meanings too. You came up and started getting bad names to me so teach yourself how to be civilised and fool isn't abuse, it's actually mindset that people show when they can't prove their ground.

Just show one incident where I have used bad language against you.

On 3/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

and fool isn't abuse

I guess you have different standards. Anyway, you used it against me; I didn’t reply in kind. As I said before that Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said to the fact: “If some abuses the other and he doesn’t respond in kind, then that abuse is thrown back in the face of the abuser.” So, be happy being one.

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On 3/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

You agreed those who fought Imam Ali displeased Allah and you again said verse of purification descended for wives of Prophet. You first agreement disproves the second that verse of purification was descended for wives of Prophet because one of them Hazrat Ayesha fought Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and displeased Allah. Do you accept that?

It’s not only what I say, the Blessed Qur’an says so, it’s so clear to everyone except those who have sectarian agenda.

“Pure” in this verse refers to purity and goodwill of one’s character. Allah Almighty would not have made Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) the wife of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) unless she had been good, because he (peace and blessings be upon him) is the best of mankind. Had she been evil, she would not have been a suitable partner either according to His Laws or His Decree.

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. Surah an-Nur Ayah 26

Read this again:

women of purity are for men of purity,

and men of purity are for women of purity:

So, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will NEVER marry lady who is not Pure. Case closed.

And read this – the following two verses:

these are not affected by what people say:”

“for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.”

Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi: When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

Wonderful testimony from the noble souls who even Shias hold in very high esteem!!!!!

On 3/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Dua was made before revelation that is why revelation came in answer. Dua is question, revelation is answer. Now you know that this verse was actually revealed for Imam Ali, Lady Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain along with Holy Prophet (PBUHHP). Secondly, you read in hadith that Hazrat Umm-e-Salima was stopped and praised but was not included in Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

This is just your sectarian view but not fact. Read the verses again with cool mind. Allah Almighty is addressing the Noble Wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) from verse 28 to 34.

Then the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) called Hz. Ali, lady Fatimah, Hz. Hassan Hz. Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) to be included among the Ahlul Bayt.

O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing Verse 28 
And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward Verse 29 
O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah Verse 30 
And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honourable sustenance Verse 31 
O Wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word Verse 32 
“And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying” Verse 33 Surah al-Ahzab
And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, AwareVerse 34 

Please refer to the above verses again, and note that right from verse 28 to verse Allah Almighty is SOLELY addressing the Noble Wives (may Allah be pleased with them) directly without any interruption. Allah Almighty is giving great advice to them how to conduct themselves being the wives of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).

Strange, Shias just take some part of the last sentence from verse 33 and deny the Noble Wives (may Allah be pleased with them) the high-status Allah Almighty is bestowing upon them. 

Actions merely due to sectarian compulsions – Never minding even the REAL TRUTH is the first casualty!!!!!!!!

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On 3/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Not necessarily, the wife of Prophet Lut and Wife of Prophet Noah and his son were not among Ahlebait of those prophets. This designation has some merits and they does not include everyone without being weighed.

The following verses destroys your stance. The above was for Prophet Nuh (peace be upon him), you cannot apply this to other Prophets (peace be upon them all).

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. Surah an-Nur Ayah 26

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was and is the most Purest of all. He will NEVER go against the Qur’an and marry someone who not pure.  You cannot challenge or question his actions.

On 3/19/2022 at 8:45 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This made me laugh. To us both are different words telling one and same meaning. The quality of making right decisions whether you call it infallible or pure, we mean one and same.

infallible                             maesum min alkhata      معصوم من الخطأ 

Purity                                   ṭahāra(h)                             طهارة

I am glad you found something to laugh about. But the people who have knowledge of Arabic are laughing at you. 

Purity and infallibility are not one and same in meaning.

Nice try, but you missed by a mile!!!

On 3/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This hadith is contrary to Quran. If largest community and Quran differs on an issue, largest community cannot be followed. Likewise, it is for a righteous Imam and largest community.

Recall a hadith that the community was reminded to hold fast Ahlebait and Quran. Thus, Quran and Ahlebait are more weighty things than masses of believers.

This hadith is NOT contrary to Qur’an. There are many, many hadith on this issue.

Let’s start with Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him):

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolfSermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

He talking about the great majority of Muslims!!!

"Verily Allah will not make my community -- or Muhammad's Community -- agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest Congregation." Tirmidhi 2256,

Allah's hand is with the largest Congregation – So said the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity – So said Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)

 "Awf ibn Malik reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'The Jews split into 71 sects: one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 sects: 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose hand is my soul, my Ummah will split into 73 sects: one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.' Someone asked, 'O Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him), who will they be?' He replied, 'The main body of the Muslims (al-Jama'ah).' Awf ibn Malik is the only one who reported this Hadith, and its isnad is acceptable." And in another version of this Hadith the Prophet (Peace be upon him) goes onto say that the saved sect, "...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 89)

On 3/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This hadith is contrary to Quran. If largest community and Quran differs on an issue, largest community cannot be followed. Likewise, it is for a righteous Imam and largest community.

Interesting, for last five decades, 12er Shias have serious internal dispute about concept of Wilayat al Faqih, did your righteous 12th Imam come forward to sort it out.  Five decades and still waiting. If the Hidden Imam is guiding the 12er Shias why do they have 100% correct hadith books with his guidance at hand?

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On 3/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Recall a hadith that the community was reminded to hold fast Ahlebait and Quran. 

Yazid b. Hayyan reported

One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said:

“Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: “The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.”

He (Husain b. Sabra) said to Zaid: “Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family?”

Thereupon he said: “His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.”

And he Husain b. Sabra said: “Who are they?” Thereupon he said: “'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas.”

Husain b. Sabra said: “These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.” Zaid b. Arqam said: “Yes.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2408a

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We, give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful - Verse 23 Surah ash-Shura

This Blessed verse was revealed to require the Muslims to love the of the near relatives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), who are: the Noble Wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Hz. Ali, Lady Fatima, Hz. Hasan and the offspring of al-Hassan, Hz. Hussein and the offspring of al-Hussein, Hz. 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil, Hz. Jaffar and the offspring of Ja'far, Hz. ’Abbas and the offspring of 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them all)

See how many more members of family the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Sunnis have.  The more the better!

On 3/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Thus, Quran and Ahlebait are more weighty things than masses of believers.

Of course, what’s this got to do with ‘masses of believers and small minority within the believers???!!!!

On 3/19/2022 at 9:03 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

My prayers with little Ali. May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) makes him into a great person for the sake of Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Thanks for your duas and may Allah Almighty accept your duas. Ali was very happy when I showed him your message. He reciprocates in kind. He says: “May Allah Almighty bless you along with your dear family with all that is good.”

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Assalama alaykum Power You have opened up so many questions that one will end up writing at least 2 volumes of history book!!!

It is humanly impossible for me to do so here.  Your questions are nothing new and have been discussed for centuries and dealt with very successfully, ALWAYS. I’ll attempt to answer them as briefly as possible with the time I can spare. I’ll not shy from answering any of your questions because these have been already debunked by eminent scholars of yesteryears.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

I suppose in there defence of Zaydis and Ismailis, their claim of wiliyat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  has concrete bases supported by abundance of religious text. 

But then they parted ways and have their own Imams and don’t believe in your 12 Imams list. Neither are they waiting eagerly for your 12th Imam or believe just like Sunnis that he ever existed.

When the 12er Shias got into power with coming of Safavids in Iran through sheer brutally and unmatched savagery, they settled scores with Zaydi and Ismailis and decimated them into submission. Please don’t pretend that there was/is buddy-buddy relationship between these three Shia sub-sects (5ers, 7ers, 12ers). Even same is the case between 12er Shia Usulis and Akbaris or between Wilayat al-Faqih and those who think that it is a blatant innovation and has no place in 12er Shi’ism.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

In addition to Ahlul Sunnah claim its absent from any religious text. Moreover, Ahlul Sunnah creation was at least 150-200 after the demise of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) . Where as the concept of party of Ali (عليه السلام) was dictated by Rasulallah himself. 

I am posting Letter 58 from Nahjul Balagha in 2 parts

A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.

Part One

The whole thing began thus that we and the Syrians met in an encounter although we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet, and our message in Islam is the same. We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger nor did they want us to add any such thing. In fact, there was complete unity except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. We suggested to them to appease the situation by calming the temporary irritation and pacifying the people till matters settled down and stabilized when we would gain strength to put matters right. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

1) we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet
2) and our message in Islam is the same
3) We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger
4) nor did they want us to add any such thing
5) In fact, there was complete unity (in belief)
6) except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it.

The first 5 points clearly show that there were NO differences in Belief as Point 5 states: COMPLETE UNITY IN BELIEF!!!!!

Important Note to consider that IMAMATE is not mentioned at all– Core Belief of Shias!!!!!!!!!!!

Part Two

“They however said that they would settle it by war. Thus, they refused our offer and consequently war spread its wings and came to stay. Its flames rose and became strong. When the war had bitten us as well as them and pierced its talons into us as well as them, they accepted what we had proposed to them.

So, we agreed to what they suggested and hastened to meet their request. In this way, the plea became clear to them and no excuse was left to them. Now, whoever among them adheres to this will be saved by Allah from ruin, and whoever shows obstinacy and insistence (on wrong) is the reverser whose heart has been blinded by Allah and evils will encircle his head.”

In Part Two Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) stated his righteousness and uprightness and that his opponents were obstinate and were seeking war.

There were no Shias as a religious group and neither was there any Sunni group. All were Muslims following the Commands of the Blessed Quran and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  There is no claim to Shia IMAMATE from supposedly first Imam of Shia!!!!!!

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On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

Why did  Ahlul Sunnah  sect appear so late in time after the Prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) demise?, And where were “Ahlul Sunnah  before the existence of these Shias sects?  and what religion were you following, and to whom were they referring to? "Who were you exactly"?

As I said this before, Islam is to obey and worship Allah Almighty only; and example and methodology set the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)!  Nothing can be added and deducted from this!!

This is main crux of Sunni Islam!!! So, it was always there from the day one.

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. Verse 59 Surah an-Nisa

[The believers are] those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things lawful for them and bad things forbidden for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains that were around them. Those who believe in him, honour and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him are successful. Verse 157 Surat al-A`raf

Read the above Blessed ayah very carefully and pay special attention to the highlighted parts – you will get the gist what Ahlul Sunnah is about.

 

Allah showed great kindness to the believers when He sent a Messenger to them from among themselves to recite His Signs to them, purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. Verse 164 Surah Al `Imran

He (Allah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. Verse 2 Al Jumm’a

Our Lord, raise in their midst a messenger from among themselves who recites to them Your verses and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom and purifies them… Verse 129 Al Baqarah

In the above ayahs:

The book refers to the Blessed Qur’an - The Wisdom refers to the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). He showed us how to carry out Allah Almighty’s commands by practically doing those actions.

 And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

1) And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, = The Noble Companions of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

2) and those who followed them in goodness = Ahlul Sunnah as follow the Blessed Companions in Goodness.

3) Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him

If you remove your tainted sectarian glasses and read the above, you will understand what Ahlul Sunnah is about – and not what your bigoted scholars and Zakirs who emotionally exaggerate stories to their captive crowd who readily digest all that is dished to them as a ‘gospel truth’.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

Its evident  from historical accounts  there was turmoil early in the Muslims  Umaah during Bani ummayah and Bani  Abbass era they brought about many innovation. 

The turmoil in early Muslims was due politics and vying each other for power. It was not due to religion as the Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha has clearly shown.

At least up to 200 years Muslims were not divided into sects but sort of political parties.

Struggle between Bani Umayyah and Bani Abbas (from Bani Hashim) and struggle within Shia Usulis and Akhbaris 12ers versus 5ers, 12ers versus 7ers – was more of power struggle. People struggling for power.  Nothing more nothing less.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

I mean who were you following before your creed was created? Please articulate concisely of the Imams you were following prior to the inception of your institution? 

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

In the above blessed verse lies your answer.

The learned Imams (may Allah reward them for their efforts) wrote books on Fiqh, History, Seerah & sayings of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to preserve for future generations.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

Historically, there aren't any tradition that either support your creed from any Prophetic tradition, unlike Shiism which is supported by Quran and hadith. 

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. Verse 100 Surah at-Tawbah

 In the above blessed verse lies your answer. And a few paragraphs of my post above.

Out of interest when was the first shia hadith book compiled????? And what is its accuracy PASS RATE?

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

If the concept of the "Majority  Being Truthful"  then who was the Majority prior to your creed? And why did  Abul Hassan Ashari needed to create a parallel sect to the "Majority Of The  Muslim "? Was this a deviation or a innovation? 

Those who followed the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) were always in majority from day one. Abu al-Ḥasan ʿAli ibn Ismaʿil al-Ashʿari (may Allah have Mercy on him) just compiled the Aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah to distinguish and differentiate it from those of Shi'ism and Mu'tazilism and Ahlul Bidah Wad-Dalalah (people of innovation and misguidance)

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On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

Moreover, were not the Mutazila  and other offshoot were  the biggest sect prior to  Ahlul Sunnah? Also, the founder of Ahlul Sunnah Abul Hassan Ashari was a devout Mutazila? Who then later abandon Mutazila sect and became AL Ashari. creed then became Ahlul Sunnah sect. Its evident from historical perspective  there were many deviant Sunnis sect prior to Ahlul Sunnah hence the creation of Ahlul Sunnah sect. 

There you are wrong yet again. And you sound so confused and mixing things up.

Muʿtazilah were not in any wildest imagination biggest sect!!!! Where did get this tall story from? Let me guess, your scholars, Zakirs?

al-muʿtazilah,:  literally means “Those Who Withdraw, or Stand Apart”)

How can the biggest sect (using your terminology) withdraw from the main body???

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

Abul Hassan Ashari was a devout Mutazila?

Correct, Abul Hassan Al Ashari was a hardcore Mutazilite and abandoned it when he saw the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in his dream for several days commanding him to repudiate Mu’tazilah beliefs and stick to traditional beliefs. Rest of your post is merely what you have been told by your scholars and Zakirs.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

Do you know that 12er Shias adopted al-muʿtazilah beliefs as part and parcel of their aqeedah? i.e Giving rationality precedence over Wahi!!!!

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

 The evidence suggest that the previous Muslims were being misled by the ruling authority, then how long dose the deviation in Muslim Umaah go back?  What is the point of the reference of this deviation  in your theology or ideology goes back to ? I guess it is safe to say the Idea of Majority being the truthful never existed in so early stages of Islam! 

There again you are exposing your ignorance of facts. Sunnis do not follow in religious matters those who are in power. They follow the distinguished and sincere scholars who are well versed in religious matters.

So, your guess unfortunately is way off the truth.  Get your information from independent sources. My advice – Use the Net, its free.

On 3/21/2022 at 1:46 PM, power said:

And what about the Maturidis are they not another branch of Sunni School of thought who had bitter rivalry between these two schools of thought? Am i right to say that Ahlul Sunnah is amalgamation of various components of different  schools of thought? 

Ash’ari and Muturidis are not sects but schools of Islamic theology and which defines the Aqeedah.

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On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

Historically, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never ever swore allegiance any of the first three Caliphs.

Shia version His neck was tied and He was dragged to Masjid-e-Nabawi, if I am not mistaken and he was forced to put his hand under Abu Bakr's.

The above statement of yours shows your ignorance of history even from your own books.

al-Tabrisi narrates from (Imam) Muhammad Baqir that when Usamah had left for Jihad when the Messenger of Allah passed away, the news reached Usamah (and) he returned with his army to Medinah. He (Usamah) saw a great number of people surrounding Abu Bakr; on seeing this, he went to question Ali ibn Abi Talib and asked: “What is this?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “It is exactly what you are seeing!” Usamah asked: “Have you (also) given Baya’ah to him?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “Yes.” (Al-Ihtejaj, Allama   Abu Mansur, Ahmad al-Tabrisi p.50: Printed Mashhad, Iran)

 It has been narrated on the authority of 'A'isha that Fatima and 'Abbas approached Abu Bakr, soliciting transfer of the legacy of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to them. At that time, they were demanding his (Holy Prophet's) lands at Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them:

I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action.  Sahih Muslim 1759b

This is very long hadith so I am posting the relevant material.

……………. So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ." Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that `Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So, when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favoured him with. `Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e., Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e., giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr). Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 4240, 4241

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On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

Historically, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never ever swore allegiance any of the first three Caliphs. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was absent when Abu Bakr was chosen in Saqifa, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not present when Umar was selected by Abu Bakr as matter of fact there was no election for Umar, he was designated by only one person that was  Abu Bakr. 

Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.)

1) “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject;

3) and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

4) If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.”  Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was absent when Abu Bakr was chosen in Saqifa

Refer to the point 3 in Nahjul Balagha the above:

Clearly, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states that “and he who was absent has no right to reject;”

On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not present when Umar was selected by Abu Bakr as matter of fact there was no election for Umar, he was designated by only one person that was  Abu Bakr. 

Again, you are displaying your lack of history.  When Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) that his time to leave this world was approaching, he starting consulting all the prominent Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) about his successor.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was consulted too. If you try to get all your information from Shia sources then you will only know one side of the history.

On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

Uthman was also selected by the means of 6 people committee.

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was part of that committee.

On 3/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, power said:

So how do you reconcile  these facts with Allah pleasure?  

That’s what Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated. This is he statement and mine. You take him to be infallible 1st Imam so, why don’t you believe him?????? Trust him, he always spoke the TRUTH.

“If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.”

You shouldn’t have problem with the stance of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). I don’t.

Phew! a lot of hard work!!

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

Salam!

Hope that you are fine & well my dear brother. 

I have just picked the sentence which has ended the hadith. How you understand this sentence?

It appears that Ummul Momineen Aisha as a enemy to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  while Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appears as representing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Obeying Imam Ali (عليه السلام) mean obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Obeying Ummul Mo'mineen means not obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

This testimony, if you accept it as correct, means that all those who fought in Jamal, including Ummul Momineen, against Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or at least their this act alone is sufficient to conclude that they have disobeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

And they indeed have disobeyed as per Quran:

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ (and stay in your houses 33:33), she went out on camel. 

This disobedience committed well after the revelation of the verses of Tehrim:

إِنْ تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا

See, the deviated heart wasn't healed with her repentance (if she really offered after the revelation of this verse). Fighting with Ali (عليه السلام) & hating/disliking him itself a sign of nifaq according to some sahih ahadith present in Sunni books. I am therefore asking you to elaborate how you have understood the quoted sentence? 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has tested the believers with Shaitaan too. He has commanded us not to obey him and mentioned him as our clear/open enemy:

أَلَمْ أَعْهَدْ إِلَيْكُمْ يَـٰبَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ أَن لَّا تَعْبُدُوا۟ ٱلشَّيْطَـٰنَ إِنَّهُۥ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ

At another place, not following him is commanded:

 

وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا۟ خُطُوَٰتِ ٱلشَّيْطَـٰنِ إِنَّهُۥ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ

Hope to get your answer.

Wassalam!!

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Wa ‘alaykum Salaam dear brother, Alhamdulilah, all’s well by the Grace of Allah Almighty. I pray that’s the same case with you and your dear family.
I am sure you know that Sunnis take Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) on very high status (of course not to your liking): There are many hadith in Sunni sources extoling high status of Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him).

Quote

“But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

This sentence no way appears to give any impression being ENEMY of Allah Almighty.

I am surprised, nay amazed that you missed the sentenced before this:

Notice before Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) the sentence which you had picked up he had uttered the following: “By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.”

Notice that Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) took oath on Allah Almighty!!! Shias regard him very highly.

In hindsight we all know that Hz. Aisha’s (may Allah be pleased with her) was in the wrong along with all who stood against Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him).

Hadith and history books confirm that Hz. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) showed great remorse for the steps she had taken. Hadith books are witness that she expressed her anguish and angst for role.

If you refer to hadith again (I have quoted it below)

 Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi: When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

 

You must also understand that those were trying times, full of fitnah and fasad and tribulations.

Third Khalifah, Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) had been brutally murdered after few months of mayhem, confusion and disorder. 

This horrible situation had confused and flabbergasted everybody. Even Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) expressed it so eloquently. “We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible.”

So much so, that he was willing to relinquish his Imamate/Khilafat and follow anyone the people elect to manage the affairs of the Ummah!!!!

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

“By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.”

The above utterance of Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) carries more weight, do you agree?

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient verse 155 Surah al Baqarah

Along with the above Allah Almighty will test everyone with other issues in life. If, one acknowledges one’s mistakes and repents and shows remorse – Allah Almighty always forgives.

Unless one has deep-rooted sectarian hatred infused in their mindset will find this hard to acknowledge.

Wasalaam my dear brother – with best regard and Duas

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I pray that’s the same case with you and your dear family.

Alhamdolillah, thanks for your prayers and kind words brother. May Almighty Lord increases your toufeeqat. 

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Notice before Hz. 'Ammar bin Yasir (may Allah be pleased with him) the sentence which you had picked up he had uttered the following: “By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter.”

Indeed I have noticed this sentence but this sentence is a factual information. She is the wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in this world, she died as wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and She will be recognized as wife of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in hereafter. Likewise the wives of Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام) & Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) will be recognized as wives of these two Prophets in hereafter too:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا

66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them.

If anyone see them and ask who these ladies are, who are burning in the hellfire, I am sure it will be said that these are the wives of two Prophets. 

So "wife in this world and in hereafter" doesn't mention anything specific about her. The ending sentence giving the conclusion, obeying her is not as obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). She appeared as symbol of disobedience, through her Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has tested the believers. Obviously believers are not those who have joined her, obeyed her and fought war against Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This act alone tantamount as they have fought war with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You must also understand that those were trying times, full of fitnah and fasad and tribulations.

Third Khalifah, Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) had been brutally murdered after few months of mayhem, confusion and disorder. 

Yes I am well aware of the history. But the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is clear in everytime as Quran has categorically mentioned:

قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ 

Right path has been made distinct from the wrong. So I don't see any excuse of being driven in the fitna wave. 

Infact we have some reports too from the books of Ahlul Sunnah which mentions that she at one time, was become so angry at Uthman that she called him "old fool" & "unbeliever". 

Anyway, I am not going into further details because of the fear that I may hurt your emotions, I know how much you revere her. Out of your love and your care, I am no longer adding any further comment my dear brother. 

I just wanted to know how you understood the last sentence of the hadith you have quoted. 

May Almighty Lord grant you success in this world & in hereafter.

Wassalam!!

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

It’s not only what I say, the Blessed Qur’an says so, it’s so clear to everyone except those who have sectarian agenda.

“Pure” in this verse refers to purity and goodwill of one’s character. Allah Almighty would not have made Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) the wife of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) unless she had been good, because he (peace and blessings be upon him) is the best of mankind. Had she been evil, she would not have been a suitable partner either according to His Laws or His Decree.

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. Surah an-Nur Ayah 26

Read this again:

women of purity are for men of purity,

and men of purity are for women of purity:

So, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will NEVER marry lady who is not Pure. Case closed.

And read this – the following two verses:

these are not affected by what people say:”

“for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.”

Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi: When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)." Sahih al-Bukhari 7100

How pitiful is that you ignored Quran which says that wives of the earlier Prophets were on wrong too. Then you quote a hadith in which you say that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) confused this ummah regarding matter between Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Ayesha. This is huge blasphemy against Allah (عزّ وجلّ) who says Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not lead anyone astray. Your points are weak because they are not in harmony with Quran.

 

21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

This is just your sectarian view but not fact. Read the verses again with cool mind. Allah Almighty is addressing the Noble Wives of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) from verse 28 to 34.

Then the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) called Hz. Ali, lady Fatimah, Hz. Hassan Hz. Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) to be included among the Ahlul Bayt.

O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing Verse 28 
And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward Verse 29 
O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah Verse 30 
And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honourable sustenance Verse 31 
O Wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word Verse 32 
“And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying” Verse 33 Surah al-Ahzab
And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, AwareVerse 34 

Please refer to the above verses again, and note that right from verse 28 to verse Allah Almighty is SOLELY addressing the Noble Wives (may Allah be pleased with them) directly without any interruption. Allah Almighty is giving great advice to them how to conduct themselves being the wives of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).

Strange, Shias just take some part of the last sentence from verse 33 and deny the Noble Wives (may Allah be pleased with them) the high-status Allah Almighty is bestowing upon them. 

Actions merely due to sectarian compulsions – Never minding even the REAL TRUTH is the first casualty!!!!!!!!

All of your rhetoric is rejected by narrations of Hazrat Umm-e-Salimma and Hazrat Ayesha that they were not among Ahlebait (عليه السلام). You cannot disagree with them or your fails.

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20 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The following verses destroys your stance. The above was for Prophet Nuh (peace be upon him), you cannot apply this to other Prophets (peace be upon them all).

Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure, and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. Surah an-Nur Ayah 26

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was and is the most Purest of all. He will NEVER go against the Qur’an and marry someone who not pure.  You cannot challenge or question his actions.

Wonderful this is your answer, how do you apply this meaning to this world while we know there is mention of pure wives in heaven too. Prophets never make mistakes but they don't go against their sunnah too that is being generous in helping others. Marrying someone's daughter is relieving himself of great burden. It does not mean that if doing someone Ahsan results in bad is your fault. Prophet Noah married a lady which was not obedient so it was that lady's fault and Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP) married Hazrat Ayesha and stopped her to leave house but she went to war against Imam Ali. It's not Prophet's fault but Hazrat Ayesha's.

 

21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am glad you found something to laugh about. But the people who have knowledge of Arabic are laughing at you. 

Purity and infallibility are not one and same in meaning.

Nice try, but you missed by a mile!!!

I am not surprised by your obstinate behavior. Both means they are pure from sins. 

 

21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolfSermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

He talking about the great majority of Muslims!!!

If you read that khutba you must have noticed that he talks about what makes a great majority, it is Quran. And, thus says that if Quran drives one group to other, they should follow Quran be part of majority. Like I said that without Quran and an Imam, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not take majority as righteous. A just soul before Allah is a majority like was said about Hazrat Abdul Mutallib that He was a ummah by Prophet. Rest of your points are repetitions.

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