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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did rasool announce khilafat of mawla Ali in Ghadeer Khum not in Arafat

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On 12/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Debate follower said:

How do Shias select Wilayat al Faqih?

1. The concept of wilayat faqweeh is not usul of basic creed of Shia 12vers. The usul of shia were described by Sheikh Saduq. 

I am a Shia 12ver and i do not take the concept of Wilayat Faqqeeh to be a 12ver.

 Even if the concept of Wilayat faqeeh is considered that exists in political system of Iran by a group of people even then those who believe in Wilayat faqeeh they do not take any one except 12 divinely appointed imams after the prophet as his successors, they do not take man made caliphate principle for the selection of caliph / successor of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which is not present in quran.

I hope you have understood my view on this matter.

On 12/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Debate follower said:

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Every thing has already been reconciled by the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in sermon given for the explanation of term jammah. That is inline with the verses of quran that believers are always small in number. This has already been shown to your with the verses of quran as well. There is no verse of quran presented so far by yourself  as evidence that majority is believer in the earlier nations  thus your false claims for majority to be followed stands rejected.

 Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a (congregation, flock or assembly)? Who are the people of disunity and dissension? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

"Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a (congregation or assembly), they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number (Our Path). That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet peace be upon him and his family. As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers. (Your Sect) As for the people of Sunna ( traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovation, they include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

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On 12/22/2021 at 2:21 PM, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Qur’an NEVER said the believers are only few (minority)”

وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ لَا تَعْبُدُونَ إِلَّا اللَّهَ وَبِالْوَالِدَيْنِ إِحْسَانًا وَذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَقُولُوا لِلنَّاسِ حُسْنًا وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنكُمْ وَأَنتُم مُّعْرِضُونَ

And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside. (2:83)

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الْمَلَإِ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَىٰ إِذْ قَالُوا لِنَبِيٍّ لَّهُمُ ابْعَثْ لَنَا مَلِكًا نُّقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ هَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ أَلَّا تُقَاتِلُوا ۖ قَالُوا وَمَا لَنَا أَلَّا نُقَاتِلَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَقَدْ أُخْرِجْنَا مِن دِيَارِنَا وَأَبْنَائِنَا ۖ فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ تَوَلَّوْا إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمِينَ

Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust. (2:246)

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:247)

فَلَمَّا فَصَلَ طَالُوتُ بِالْجُنُودِ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مُبْتَلِيكُم بِنَهَرٍ فَمَن شَرِبَ مِنْهُ فَلَيْسَ مِنِّي وَمَن لَّمْ يَطْعَمْهُ فَإِنَّهُ مِنِّي إِلَّا مَنِ اغْتَرَفَ غُرْفَةً بِيَدِهِ ۚ فَشَرِبُوا مِنْهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۚ فَلَمَّا جَاوَزَهُ هُوَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ قَالُوا لَا طَاقَةَ لَنَا الْيَوْمَ بِجَالُوتَ وَجُنُودِهِ ۚ قَالَ الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُم مُّلَاقُو اللَّهِ كَم مِّن فِئَةٍ قَلِيلَةٍ غَلَبَتْ فِئَةً كَثِيرَةً بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

So when Talut departed with the forces, he said: Surely Allah will try you with a river; whoever then drinks from it, he is not of me, and whoever does not taste of it, he is surely of me, except he who takes with his hand as much of it as fills the hand; but with the exception of a few of them they drank from it. So when he had crossed it, he and those who believed with him, they said: We have today no power against Jalut and his forces. Those who were sure that they would meet their Lord said: How often has a small party vanquished a numerous host by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient. (2:249)

وَلَوْ أَنَّا كَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ أَنِ اقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ أَوِ اخْرُجُوا مِن دِيَارِكُم مَّا فَعَلُوهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ مِّنْهُمْ ۖ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ فَعَلُوا مَا يُوعَظُونَ بِهِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُمْ وَأَشَدَّ تَثْبِيتًا

And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them); (4:66)

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ

And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My messengers and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (5:12-13)

Now a hadith of the prophet s.aw. is presented below:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عُمَرَ الصَّنْعَانِيُّ ـ مِنَ الْيَمَنِ ـ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَسْلَمَ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لَتَتْبَعُنَّ سَنَنَ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ شِبْرًا شِبْرًا وَذِرَاعًا بِذِرَاعٍ، حَتَّى لَوْ دَخَلُوا جُحْرَ ضَبٍّ تَبِعْتُمُوهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ الْيَهُودُ وَالنَّصَارَى قَالَ ‏"‏ فَمَنْ ‏"‏‏.‏

Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

The Prophet () said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Messenger ()! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/96/50

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/04/16/bidah-innovation-jews-christians/

Thus it confirms that most of the people in earlier nations were not believers and same principle in the light of verses of quran and hadith is confirmed. Further it also mentions that believers are few in number / minority (not a majority) that’s is misquoted by sunni in their interpretation against the verses of quran.

I have mentioned by quoting the verses of quran that believers in nations are small few or minority in earlier nations, hadith provide the evidence that same will be repeated in our nation.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 12/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Debate follower said:

What are your comments about contents on Letter 58 sent by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)? I can guess, it is not authentic! Right?

We can best assume that the words we see from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for peace with his divine wisdom to foresee the calamities that were to be faced by his two sons from the syrian people (including Muawiya and his son Yazeed) after him (عليه السلام).

There are many letters in Nehjul balagah that were written to Muawiya to inform him of his crimes against the teachings of Islam. 

The rule of Muawiya and Yazeed is the dark history in islam even sunni believe in it.

 Though there are no sources quoted for this letter so its authenticity is just mursal , majhul and Daef / weak. Its my view about this letter.

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 12/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Debate follower said:

Wasalaam - brother, I need a break so will respond after 3 to 4 weeks. In Sha Allah
with best duas for you and your family

Thanks brother i hope and pray the best for you and your family 

wasalam

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On 12/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Debate follower said:

Now, since we are on Nahjul Balagha – Can you explain the following? Letter 58 A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.

The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. To read complete version – the link -

https://english.almaaref.org/essaydetails.php?eid=578&cid=102

Here Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is categorially stating that there was NOT and iota of differences in their Beliefs. Absolute none.  He has not mentioned anything about Imamate or Ghadir Khumm event.

The only reason he mentions is Syrians (His opponents in the Battle of Siffin) were falsely laying the blame of the murder of Hz.Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) on him and were not giving him time to get to bring the murderers of Hz. Uthman ibn Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) to account.

He said that was the only reason for the split.  Nothing to do with Divine Appointment. Or his appointment  as an Imam in Ghadir Khumm. Muslims were not divided by Belief but in politics.

What are your comments about contents on Letter 58 sent by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)? I can guess, it is not authentic! Right?

My view and details about Letter No. 58 mentioning the battle of Siffin can be seen at the following link:

For the event of Siffin battle the extract from the relevant sermons,  letters and necessary hadith of the prophet can be seen from the above link.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 12/24/2021 at 6:07 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a (congregation, flock or assembly)? Who are the people of disunity and dissension? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

"Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a (congregation or assembly), they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number (Our Path). That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet peace be upon him and his family. As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers. (Your Sect) As for the people of Sunna ( traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovation, they include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

Salam

 

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On 12/23/2021 at 6:00 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Wassalam. Thanks for your reply, I am addressing your posts in sequence and my reply is given below:

Teachings of Islam is based on the two sources of guidance 1 Quran and 2 hadith.  The verses of quran mentions the principle if the principle is the  present in quran then further guidance is taken from relevant hadith. If the principle is not present in the quran then the hadith are to be taken that are not against the verses of quran. If hadith are against the defined verses of quran that at are not acceptable for action by a mindful one.

The case of Prayer is taken as the principle of prayers / Salat is defined in verses of quran but the method and no of rakats and times are taken from hadith. 

Assalama alaykum brother, thanks for your detailed reply.  Please accept my apologies for delayed reply. I really had to push myself to post here.  Preferably I love to follow good debates than be in one. Since I got myself embroiled into one, I am going to respond to all your points – there are lots of them so my post is going to long, so bear it.

Also, I would like to compliment you on your respectful approach to this debate. Yes, we should admit that we have issues and are rivals – but enemies!

 I agree with you completely that teachings of Islam are based on only two sources of Guidance; 1 Qur’an and 2 Hadith. Here we are we are in agreement. 
1) Then, don’t both sects interpret the verses of the Blessed Qur’an to underpin their own Beliefs?  
2)Don’t both sects have their own hadith books, and dismissing the hadith literature of their opponents as fictitious?

The blessed Qur’an has precisely enlightened the dilemma:

But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them. Ayah 53 Surah Al Al-Mu'minun (appropriately named The Believers)

Quote

 

All the verses  that are irrelevant instead of the verse of quran asked from your side.

"If you insist on your view of majority in a nation (even muslims) is on the right path and it is to be followed as per your understating of sermons of nehjul balagha, then please mention a verse of quran as per your claim that the believers in nation are always in large numbers (majority) against the verses of quran mentioning believers are only few (minority) as quoted with the examples of the nations mentioned in quran".

 

In the very beginning the Believers were a tiny minority in Makkah Al Mukarramah – but initially very slowly but steadily the numbers kept increasing. After the Blessed Hejira, the this was reduced to single digits.  After Conquest it became the majority, and eventually 100% Muslim!

Same applies for Madinah Al Munawarah – it started with very minute minority Muslim population but progressively gaining numbers. And within a decade became overwhelming majority and eventually 100% Muslim!

 Islam as a ‘religion’ faith gained unprecedented success within last years of the Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) life, testified by the Surah An-Nasr. 

When the victory of Allah has come and the conquest

And you see the people entering into the religion of Allah in multitudes

Then exalt [Him] with praise of your Lord and ask forgiveness of Him. Indeed, He is ever Accepting of Repentance. Surah An-Nasr (The Divine Support)

At farewell Hajj around 100,000 plus Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) joined him.  Surely, not all believers could have at Hajj. Since is not possible for all the believers to attend the last Hajj (due to advanced age or too young, disability or sickness, women with young children etc. etc. judiciously, we can assume that number could easily around 500,000 from all the areas under Islamic banner.  So, one can easily the numbers increasing at a much faster rate.

After this history is witness to the phenomenon growth of Islam, never matched by any other religion. Taming and vanquishing two super powers at that time, the Sassanid and Roman empires within a decade.

In 2020, the total Muslim population is around 1.907 billion – that’s 24.9% of world population. It is minority compared to total non-Muslims but a respectable minority. It is growing faster than any other religion.  Islam is still growing at tremendous pace due higher birth rate and conversion of non-Muslims by dawah.  This is mainly in favour of Sunni Islam due to their very active dawah to invite others to Islam.

It is predicted that by 2070 CE Muslims will be more than 30% of World population - Ma Sha Allah!

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/06/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/

That means 67% will still be non-Muslims!

This is in line with Qur’anic verses that Majority of Mankind will not Believe!

Bottom line:  Brother, you can take comfort and contentment in being in a small minority mostly localised in Iran and surrounding countries. 

By the way, since you are resolute that being in minority is to be on the right.

Would you accept this if Zaidis make this claim?  They are at a minority among the Shia, right?

Whereas the Sunnis want to spread and share the beautiful message of Islam far and wide to as many people around the world so that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) will have his saying fulfilled:

Anas b. Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم  ) said: Amongst the apostles I would have the largest following on the Day of Resurrection, and I would be the first to knock at the door of ParadiseSahih Muslim Hadith No. 484

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On 12/23/2021 at 6:00 PM, Muslim2010 said:

I have rejected already yours such thoughts by mentioning the vesres from quran that believers are small in numbers a few or minority.

"

  حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَ أَمْرُنَا وَفَارَ التَّنُّورُ قُلْنَا احْمِلْ فِيهَا مِن كُلٍّ زَوْجَيْنِ اثْنَيْنِ وَأَهْلَكَ إِلَّا مَن سَبَقَ عَلَيْهِ الْقَوْلُ وَمَنْ آمَنَ ۚ وَمَا آمَنَ مَعَهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ

Until when Our command came and water came forth from the valley, We said: Carry in it two of all things, a pair, and your own family-- except those against whom the word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And there believed not with him but a few. (11:40)

The above verse mention the nation of Nuh (عليه السلام) instead of the mankind. There were few  believers (minority) not majority.

فَلَمَّا فَصَلَ طَالُوتُ بِالْجُنُودِ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مُبْتَلِيكُم بِنَهَرٍ فَمَن شَرِبَ مِنْهُ فَلَيْسَ مِنِّي وَمَن لَّمْ يَطْعَمْهُ فَإِنَّهُ مِنِّي إِلَّا مَنِ اغْتَرَفَ غُرْفَةً بِيَدِهِ ۚ فَشَرِبُوا مِنْهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۚ فَلَمَّا جَاوَزَهُ هُوَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ قَالُوا لَا طَاقَةَ لَنَا الْيَوْمَ بِجَالُوتَ وَجُنُودِهِ ۚ قَالَ الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُم مُّلَاقُو اللَّهِ كَم مِّن فِئَةٍ قَلِيلَةٍ غَلَبَتْ فِئَةً كَثِيرَةً بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

So when Talut departed with the forces, he said: Surely Allah will try you with a river; whoever then drinks from it, he is not of me, and whoever does not taste of it, he is surely of me, except he who takes with his hand as much of it as fills the hand; but with the exception of a few of them they drank from it. So when he had crossed it, he and those who believed with him, they said: We have today no power against Jalut and his forces. Those who were sure that they would meet their Lord said: How often has a small party vanquished a numerous host by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient. (2:249)

The above verse mention the nation of Musa (عليه السلام) (children of isral) instead of the mankind. There were few  believers (minority) not majority."

Just by you rejecting the facts doesn’t mean the facts are not right.  That’s just a self-satisfying statement for your own self.

Just like the proverbial pigeon that closes its eyes when it sees an approaching cat and thinks that the cat has disappeared as it can’t see the cat. The cat is still there.  So, your denial of the facts doesn’t make them disappear into the ‘thin air’. Your denial is just based on your sectarian bias. Nothing else. Facts will remain a fact!

The example given by you is referring a specific time period – Just like if refer to time of Battle of Badr – Believers were comparatively very few.

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand. Ayah 65 Surah Al-anfal

Quote

 

The verse quoted by yourself is explained as given below:

How do consider that the promise of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has been completed?

How do you interpret that the rulers selected by some people were chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ie divinely appointed?

Could you please name by the verse of quran any prophet, imam, caliph, or successor or leader or ruler that has been chosen by the people for their guidance?

 

I’ll quote the relevant ayah again:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. Ayah 55 Surah an-Nur

Please go and refer to history:

1) From Believers (Muslims), who ruled the Islamic World? And who were the dominant in the Islamic World?
2) Who conquered lands to add to the Islamic World and spread the message of Islam there, from Spain in the West as the World known at that time? From Central Asia in the North and North, West and East Africa?
3) Who brought the Persian and Roman Empires to their knees and introduced Islam in these lands?
4) Who travelled to Far East for trade and Dawah to spread the Message of Islam?
5) Who defended the Islamic World from 2 -3 centuries onslaught from collective forces from Europe in form of Crusades?
6) Who fought off the marauding and plundering the savage Mongols?
7) Who have been custodians of Makkah Al Mukkarmah (where rituals of Hajj are performed), Madinah Al Munawarah (where the Believers can go and pay their profound respects to the Blessed Prophet(peace and blessings be upon him) and just take a steps to the right to pay respects to his most close Companions (my Allah be pleased with them both) and Bait Al Muqadas (Jerusalam) – the three holy sites in Islam – for most of the time since advent of Islam?

If, you know the World history well and are fair then you should get to know who ruled the Islamic World. Shias generally and 12ers in particular are just a footnote in Islamic History and that too is based around Iraq and Iran and the surroundings until around 1980s.

At the present time the Muslim Ummah is in the worst shape it has ever been, few centuries under colonisation have eradicated Islamic way life among the population at large. General Islamic knowledge hardly exists among the general public but is confined specifically to Madrassahs and Hawzas as the case my apply.  Muslims are divided into national prides, tribes, clans. Muslim leaders are puppets of their foreign backers and feel secure with their support rather than trust in Allah Almighty just they want to enjoy this Earthly life to the hilt and fear death.  The blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had foretold this dire situation.  I had quoted the hadith in the post earlier and doing it again for your ease.

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Musnad Ahmed)

The hadith clearly states the Muslims will be in great numbers but will be ‘like the scum on the running water’.

We do take the validity for Khilafaat from verses from the Blessed Qur’an and hadith.  Shias being opponents of this will not believe because it debunks the Shia theory for Imamate.

Who respond to their Lord and attend to their prayers; who conduct their affairs by mutual consultation and spend out of what We have provided for themSurat Ash-Shura: 38

and consult them in the affairs, and once you are resolved, put your trust in Allah. Indeed, Allah loves those who trust in Him. Surat Aal-i-Imraan: 159

Narrated Abu Musa: "The Prophet (ﷺ) became sick and when his disease became aggravated, he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayer." `Aisha said, "He is a soft-hearted man and would not be able to lead the prayer in your place." The Prophet (ﷺ) said again, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer." She repeated the same reply but he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer. You are the companions of Joseph." So, the messenger went to Abu Bakr (with that order) and he led the people in prayer in the lifetime of the Prophet. Sahih al-Bukhari 678

Jubayr ibn Mut’im reported: A woman came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and he ordered her to return again. She said, “What if I come and I do not find you?” It was as if she wanted to say, “If I find you dead?” The Prophet said, “If you do not find me, go to Abu Bakr.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3459, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2386 Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

There are a lot of authentic hadith collaborating and validating the Khilafaat. I am not trying to convince you but I am putting forward Sunni position.

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On 12/24/2021 at 2:37 PM, Muslim2010 said:

1. The concept of wilayat faqweeh is not usul of basic creed of Shia 12vers. The usul of shia were described by Sheikh Saduq. 

I am a Shia 12ver and i do not take the concept of Wilayat Faqqeeh to be a 12ver.

 Even if the concept of Wilayat faqeeh is considered that exists in political system of Iran by a group of people even then those who believe in Wilayat faqeeh they do not take any one except 12 divinely appointed imams after the prophet as his successors, they do not take man made caliphate principle for the selection of caliph / successor of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which is not present in quran.

I hope you have understood my view on this matter.

I respect your views on Wilayat Al Faqih.  I agree with you that it is not and was not from basic creed 12er Shia. In absence of communications from the 12th Imam, political necessity forced some among Shia scholars to ‘legalise’ it to meet political requirements. With Pro Wilayat al Faqih Clergy take over of Iran the Scholars have taken over ‘leadership’ of 12er Shia World due to Iran’s pivotal role in Shia politics.  Same as Saudis play their role in Sunni Islam – (I hope and pray that it ends soon).

The point is that pro-Wilayat al Faqih Shias are using selected few to elect their leader. (Just like the selected few from Muhajiroun and Ansar elected the first two Khaleefs (may Allah be pleased with them both).

Yet, without any pang of conscience criticise Sunnis for doing what they consider halal for themselves!

Sunni’s use the Qur’anic verse to manage their affairs by mutual consultations.

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them 38 ash-Shura – the surah is also appropriately named Council, Consultation!

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On 12/24/2021 at 2:37 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Every thing has already been reconciled by the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in sermon given for the explanation of term jammah. That is inline with the verses of quran that believers are always small in number. This has already been shown to your with the verses of quran as well. There is no verse of quran presented so far by yourself  as evidence that majority is believer in the earlier nations  thus your false claims for majority to be followed stands rejected.

 Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a (congregation, flock or assembly)? Who are the people of disunity and dissension? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

"Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a (congregation or assembly), they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number (Our Path). That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet peace be upon him and his family. As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers. (Your Sect) As for the people of Sunna ( traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovation, they include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

 

On 12/24/2021 at 2:51 PM, Muslim2010 said:

And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside. (2:83)

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الْمَلَإِ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَىٰ إِذْ قَالُوا لِنَبِيٍّ لَّهُمُ ابْعَثْ لَنَا مَلِكًا نُّقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ هَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ أَلَّا تُقَاتِلُوا ۖ قَالُوا وَمَا لَنَا أَلَّا نُقَاتِلَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَقَدْ أُخْرِجْنَا مِن دِيَارِنَا وَأَبْنَائِنَا ۖ فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ تَوَلَّوْا إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمِينَ

Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust. (2:246)

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:247)

فَلَمَّا فَصَلَ طَالُوتُ بِالْجُنُودِ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مُبْتَلِيكُم بِنَهَرٍ فَمَن شَرِبَ مِنْهُ فَلَيْسَ مِنِّي وَمَن لَّمْ يَطْعَمْهُ فَإِنَّهُ مِنِّي إِلَّا مَنِ اغْتَرَفَ غُرْفَةً بِيَدِهِ ۚ فَشَرِبُوا مِنْهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۚ فَلَمَّا جَاوَزَهُ هُوَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ قَالُوا لَا طَاقَةَ لَنَا الْيَوْمَ بِجَالُوتَ وَجُنُودِهِ ۚ قَالَ الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُم مُّلَاقُو اللَّهِ كَم مِّن فِئَةٍ قَلِيلَةٍ غَلَبَتْ فِئَةً كَثِيرَةً بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

So when Talut departed with the forces, he said: Surely Allah will try you with a river; whoever then drinks from it, he is not of me, and whoever does not taste of it, he is surely of me, except he who takes with his hand as much of it as fills the hand; but with the exception of a few of them they drank from it. So when he had crossed it, he and those who believed with him, they said: We have today no power against Jalut and his forces. Those who were sure that they would meet their Lord said: How often has a small party vanquished a numerous host by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient. (2:249)

وَلَوْ أَنَّا كَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ أَنِ اقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ أَوِ اخْرُجُوا مِن دِيَارِكُم مَّا فَعَلُوهُ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ مِّنْهُمْ ۖ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ فَعَلُوا مَا يُوعَظُونَ بِهِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُمْ وَأَشَدَّ تَثْبِيتًا

And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them); (4:66)

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ

And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My messengers and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (5:12-13)

Now a hadith of the prophet s.aw. is presented below:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عُمَرَ الصَّنْعَانِيُّ ـ مِنَ الْيَمَنِ ـ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَسْلَمَ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لَتَتْبَعُنَّ سَنَنَ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ شِبْرًا شِبْرًا وَذِرَاعًا بِذِرَاعٍ، حَتَّى لَوْ دَخَلُوا جُحْرَ ضَبٍّ تَبِعْتُمُوهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ الْيَهُودُ وَالنَّصَارَى قَالَ ‏"‏ فَمَنْ ‏"‏‏.‏

Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

The Prophet () said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Messenger ()! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/96/50

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/04/16/bidah-innovation-jews-christians/

Thus it confirms that most of the people in earlier nations were not believers and same principle in the light of verses of quran and hadith is confirmed. Further it also mentions that believers are few in number / minority (not a majority) that’s is misquoted by sunni in their interpretation against the verses of quran.

I have mentioned by quoting the verses of quran that believers in nations are small few or minority in earlier nations, hadith provide the evidence that same will be repeated in our nation.

And you have not reconciled the discrepancy between the two sayings of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). You saying that you have done so holds no water.

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

On 12/24/2021 at 2:37 PM, Muslim2010 said:

As for the people of Jama’a (congregation or assembly), they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number (Our Path).

The first quotation: “So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf” has to do with general Muslim Ummah in keeping Unity of brotherhood and purpose in life.

I had shown you verse from the Blessed Qur’an where Allah Almighty has commanded the believers to keep united and not split into sects and there are many narrations from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to the same effect.

The second narration points to sincerity/loyalty/commitment of the closest followers.

This is the case with all organisations.  We have members who are most active and committed and are ready to undertake any task. Then we have members who may agree to everything but are not that committed actively. Then there are others who are just ‘lazy’ members.

We Sunnis, also have narrations where ultimate commitment has nothing to with numbers. This has to do with sincerity of belief.  

Abu Amr Abd al-Rahman ibn Amr al-Awzai (88 – 157 AH), a great traditionalist Islamic scholar, said: “Islam will not disappear but the people of the Sunnah will disappear until none remain in any country except a single man.” Source: Kashf al-Kurbah 1/7

Al-Qadi ‘Iyad ibn Musa said (476 – 544 AH) a great imam and a Qadhi in the Emirate of Granada said: “Islam began with a few individuals, then it spread and prevailed, then it will decreased and reduced until none remain except a few individuals as it was in the beginning.” - Source: Sharḥ Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 145

Nu‘aym bin Ḥammad al-Khuza‘i al-Marwazi died 228 AH may Allah have mercy on him, said: “If the community becomes corrupted, then you must adhere to its practice before it became corrupt. Even if you are alone, then you by yourself would be the true community (jama’ah).” - Source: I’lām al-Muwaqqi’īn 3/308

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On 12/24/2021 at 3:00 PM, Muslim2010 said:

We can best assume that the words we see from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for peace with his divine wisdom to foresee the calamities that were to be faced by his two sons from the syrian people (including Muawiya and his son Yazeed) after him (عليه السلام).

There are many letters in Nehjul balagah that were written to Muawiya to inform him of his crimes against the teachings of Islam. 

The rule of Muawiya and Yazeed is the dark history in islam even sunni believe in it.

There can be no comparison made between the lofty and Noble status of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) and that of Mu’awiyah ibn Abu Sufiyan. It would be like making a comparison between the sun in full glory against a candle.

Yazeed deserves whatever Allah Almighty has prepared for him. In contrast Imam Hussein’s (may Allah be pleased with him) ultimate sacrifice for upholding the Truth has set a shining unsurpassable example till end of days for the all the believers to follow!

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had foretold that after him how the political leadership will progress.

“There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent. (Masnad Imam Ahmed)

History is witness to it that the above has come true. After the passing away of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) “Khilafah on the Prophetic method” passed on to (Hz. Abu Bakr up to Hz. Hassan (may Allah be pleased with them all) the khalifs were political leaders (more like kings), those who did good will be rewarded accordingly and those who did evil will face the consequences of their deeds. Sunnis do not take anyone human except the Prophets (peace be upon them all) to be infallible.

So, whoever does an atom’s weight of good will see it.  Surah 8 Az-Zalzalah
And whoever does an atom’s weight of evil will see it. Surah 9 Az-Zalzalah

Sunnis follow the Qur’an and the Sunnah the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) – if any scholar narrates from these two blessed sources, we follow those scholars. There are hadith that good scholars are inheritors of Islamic knowledge from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

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On 12/23/2021 at 6:08 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Could you please provide an authentic reference for your statement as the discussion is a religious and serious  discussion instead of a cut paste from wikipedia (being unauthentic) for this important discussion?

I'll respond to the above in a week's time. I already have said a lot. :(

 

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grammar ;)
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On 12/24/2021 at 3:00 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Though there are no sources quoted for this letter so its authenticity is just mursal , majhul and Daef / weak. Its my view about this letter.

The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his household) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha

 I agree with you. No Shia will accept these words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) even quoted in Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence). It's in Nahjul Balagha without any reference! Deliberately done so"

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16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

By the way, since you are resolute that being in minority is to be on the right.

Would you accept this if Zaidis make this claim?  They are at a minority among the Shia, right?

Thanks for your reply after a long time, may be due to your own busy life:

The verses  and relevant hadith from sunni sources provide a clear understanding of the matter for the minority and majority both as were present in the Bani Israel, The matter discussed in detail has been completed ignored with eyes closed by yourself, I am not in a position to make a judgement for any one but i have presented clear verses and authentic hadith from sunni sources. I am responsible for my belief and deeds and not for any one one else.

The link of the truth inline with the verses of quran and hadith oft he prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been duly presented at the link given below in this thread:

I have mentioned by quoting the verses of quran that believers in nations are small few (minority) in earlier nations, hadith provide the evidence that same will be repeated in our nation.

As far as your view about sects are concerned the verse of quran mention at the above given link talk about the children of Israel as a nation there is no sect or subdivision mention it. So the example your are trying to present is completely false.   

I also quote my words again that sunni and shia are two major divisions in Islam since the demise of the Holy prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) And no one can deny that the rest are production of the times after wards. The sunni are in majority and shia are in less numbers. No sensible can deny it.

wasalam

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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I’ll quote the relevant ayah again:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. Ayah 55 Surah an-Nur

I have made some question to verify the interpretation of the verse that you have in your mind but no questions has been answered yet instead of irrelevant question posted again that are off topic.

However, the verse is clear in its meaning no one in the history of islam  has ever ruled over the earth. This is certainly true for all the past rulers of islam. The verse is mentioning future tense not a past or present tense, even if we consider for it today.

In this verse we read that Allah has promised the authority of the earth, establishment of the chosen religion and complete security to those who are believers and do righteous deeds,.

Some of them say that it refers to the Companions of the Prophet (S), who ruled the earth after Islam and defeated pagans at the time of the Prophet (S).

Some say it refers to the first four caliphates’ authority. And some consider its meaning so wide-ranging that it includes all Muslims who have such an attribute.

Some say that it refers to government of Mahdi (may Allah hasten his appearance!), which includes western and eastern parts of the world and the religion of Truth will widespread. Fear and war will be abolished on the earth, and sincere worship will be materialized for all people of the world.

Undoubtedly this holy verse includes the first Muslims and certainly the full extension of this verse is the government of Mahdi (may Allah hasten his appearance!), which according to the opinion of all Muslims, whether Shi‘ite or Sunni, will make the earth peaceful and full of justice after oppression and tyranny rule the world.

Some say that the word /‘ard/ is absolute and general which includes all of the earth, but this is only limited to the government of Mahdi (may we get sacrificed for him!) and it is not consistent with the Qur’anic sentence /kamastaxlafa/ (as He granted it), because the predecessors’ government and authority did not certainly include all of the earth.

Moreover, the occasion of revelation of the verse indicates that at least an example of such government was achieved for Muslims at the time of the Prophet (S), although it was at the end of his life.

It is repeated that the product of all prophets’ struggles and attempts, their continual propagation and pursuit and complete example of monotheism sovereignty, complete security, and sincere worship with no polytheism will be materialized when Mahdi (may Allah hasten his appearance!), the offspring of the prophets and the progeny of the Prophet of Islam (S), will reappear.

The Prophet (S) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

References:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,

• The History Tabari

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251

In the end of the time, my Ummah will undergo very hard affliction like never before, so that man can not find any way out. Then Allah will appear a person from my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt, who will fill the earth with justice as it was filled with injustice. The inhabitants of the earth and the inhabitants of the heaven love him. The sky will bring down its water everywhere and the earth will bring all what it can offer and will become green all over. 

References:

• al-Sahih fi al-Hadith, by al-Hakim, as quoted in:

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p250

Also Ahmad Ibn Hanbal recorded:

The Prophet (S) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my Family and just before the Day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression."

References:

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

Qurtabi, the famous Sunni commentator, narrated from Miqdad-Ibn-’Aswad who heard from the Prophet (S), who said:

“No clay or stone house will remain unless Allah causes Islam enters that house (and faith and monotheism get widespread on the earth.)”

(The Commentary by Qurtabi, following the verse)

wasalam

(..........continued)

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your reply after a long time, may be due to your own busy life:

Assalama alaykum, I wasn’t that busy.  I do have time but intensely dislike too much debating. It hardens the heart. Rather I like following debates especially on religion – hence my username is Debate Follower.

That’s why I had said in my last post before but took the liberty of taking more time:

Quote

Wasalaam - brother, I need a break so will respond after 3 to 4 weeks. In Sha Allah

 

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Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressorsAyah 55 Surah an-Nur

Brother, the above surah cannot be about Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him):

Allah Almighty is addressing all the believers! If they believe and do good will be rewarded as rulers.  And those who are ungrateful after these favours will be accounted for their transgressions.  This does not apply to Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him)

Then  as said before:

5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 I agree with you completely that teachings of Islam are based on only two sources of Guidance; 1 Qur’an and 2 Hadith. Here we are we are in agreement. 
1) Then, don’t both sects interpret the verses of the Blessed Qur’an to underpin their own Beliefs?  
2)Don’t both sects have their own hadith books, and dismissing the hadith literature of their opponents as fictitious?

The blessed Qur’an has precisely enlightened the dilemma:

But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them. Ayah 53 Surah Al Al-Mu'minun (appropriately named The Believers)

  Wasalaam               

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15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Allah Almighty is addressing all the believers! If they believe and do good will be rewarded as rulers.  And those who are ungrateful after these favours will be accounted for their transgressions.  This does not apply to Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him)

Do you consider cursed people  likewise cursed Muawiah(la) & cursed Yazid (la) & MBS as belivers because  they have been rulers or you just want justify their crimes by saying that they will be judged in here after which our responsibility  is not judging them !?

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On 1/31/2022 at 5:25 AM, Debate follower said:

Sunni’s use the Qur’anic verse to manage their affairs by mutual consultations.

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them 38 ash-Shura – the surah is also appropriately named Council, Consultation!

This verse does not mention about the successor-ship after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The people have not chosen the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then they do not have any right of choosing his successor, it is only the right of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has sent the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

If you consider that the argument is not true then please enlighten us with the example of a caliph/ successor/ leader/ prophet / imams that has been mentioned in quran by name and chosen by the people for their guidance (instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).

The verse is vital to provide the evidence of your false claim before i can give any attention to it even like of that an atom.

wasalam

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On 1/31/2022 at 5:55 AM, Debate follower said:

 I agree with you. No Shia will accept these words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) even quoted in Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence). It's in Nahjul Balagha without any reference! Deliberately done so"

I have mentioned my view in detail in a complete thread with the hadith and sermons taken from Nehjul balagha. This is sufficient to confirm my view on the matter that is falsely exhibited by your thoughts, First the words from the same letter no. 58 are mentioned below:

Reply & Explanation:

1.       This letter no. 58, just provides a little information to his people about Siffin  those were scattered in various regions and they have already given bayah to imam Ali (عليه السلام). How do you expect that this little piece of advice / explanation should have every basic principle of Shia creed  (true followers) of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). in that single paper? Such a silly comment is not expected from any mindful person.

2.      There are about 12 Nos. of sermons and 04 Nos. of Letters in Nehjul balagah for the events that mentions the Siffieen battle. I will just mention some summarized contents from some of those with relevant reference to explain my view before I can arrive at a certain point of view & conclusion:

3.      For the basic Usul and Principles of Religion for 12vers hadith book Al-kafi was written about 70 years at least before the Nehjul balagah was compiled. There are many hadith describing the verses of quran both in shia and sunni sources that mention the hadith of Ghadeer and Ali bin abi talib being selected Imam and Caliph after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

4.      Moreover there has been lot of discussions on the topic of Ghadeer and hadith for Imam Al (عليه السلام) appointment as caliph at SC. All these details are certain on the basis of verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), every careful can read  those to realize the intensity of truth.

5.      For the event of Siffin battle the following extract from the relevant sermons and letters is presented below:

Letter No. 58 paragraphs:

The whole thing began thus that we and the Syrians met in an encounter although we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet, and our message in Islam is the same. We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger (Allah bless him and his descendants) nor did they want us to add any such thing. In fact, there was complete unity except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. We suggested to them to appease the situation by calming the temporary irritation and pacifying the people till matters settled down and stabilized when we would gain strength to put matters right.

They however said that they would settle it by war. Thus, they refused our offer and consequently war spread its wings and came to stay. Its flames rose and became strong. When the war had bitten us as well as them and pierced its talons into us as well as them, they accepted what we had proposed to them.

So, we agreed to what they suggested and hastened to meet their request. In this way, the plea became clear to them and no excuse was left to them. Now, whoever among them adheres to this will be saved by Allah from ruin, and whoever shows obstinacy and insistence (on wrong) is the reverser whose heart has been blinded by Allah and evils will encircle his head.”

The words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are very clear about those who like to settle the matter by war. How they can be of same virtues and belief? This is utter nonsense.

Further details can be seen from the same thread and its link is given below:

The conclusion after addressing the sermons and letters from nehujl balagha and hadiths of the prophet as given in above thread is mentioned in the following:

Thus the opponents of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) were rebels well proven by the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and such rebels are knows as misguided . I have explained my view and concluded it in clear words.

wasalam

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On 1/31/2022 at 5:21 AM, Debate follower said:

 Abu Musa: "The Prophet (ﷺ) became sick and when his disease became aggravated, he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayer." `Aisha said, "He is a soft-hearted man and would not be able to lead the prayer in your place." The Prophet (ﷺ) said again, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer." She repeated the same reply but he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer. You are the companions of Joseph." So, the messenger went to Abu Bakr (with that order) and he led the people in prayer in the lifetime of the Prophet. Sahih al-Bukhari 678

Jubayr ibn Mut’im reported: A woman came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and he ordered her to return again. She said, “What if I come and I do not find you?” It was as if she wanted to say, “If I find you dead?” The Prophet said, “If you do not find me, go to Abu Bakr.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3459, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2386 Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

None of the hadith does mention that the Abu bakr has been chosen a caliph by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him  as there is no word of caliph /caliphate existing in such hadiths. Thus again your conjectures are proven in violation to the verses of quran and hadith as well.

All the above are just falsely mentioned by sunni for mud like protection of the caliphs chosen by the people for back fitting their violations of man-made caliphate . This is against the verses of quran and authentic hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for following his progeny / Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام).

If you think your claim is true, then Please quote the examples from the verses of quran (by name) of the successors of the prophets or caliphs or imams that have been chosen by the people for their guidance as well as the Name of caliphs chosen by the people those have been selected as by leading  the prayers?

The quran is the first source of religion Islam and the hadith providing further interpretation are ACCEPTABLE only IF the principle is defined in the quran.

As I have not seen so far any verse of quran from your side defining the  man-made caliphate thus your claim for man-made caliphate inline with Quran and hadith is completely false.

wasalam

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On 1/31/2022 at 11:12 AM, Debate follower said:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressorsAyah 55 Surah an-Nur

Brother, the above surah cannot be about Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him):

Allah Almighty is addressing all the believers! If they believe and do good will be rewarded as rulers.  And those who are ungrateful after these favours will be accounted for their transgressions.  This does not apply to Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him)           

As you are making a claim then we need to verify its validity inline with the verse of quran and hadith, before we can come across a conclusion about it.

Verse of Quran, 24:55

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ  كَمَا اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ وَلَيُمَكِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ دِينَهُمُ الَّذِي ارْتَضَىٰ لَهُمْ وَلَيُبَدِّلَنَّهُم مِّن بَعْدِ خَوْفِهِمْ أَمْنًا ۚ يَعْبُدُونَنِي لَا يُشْرِكُونَ بِي شَيْئًا ۚ وَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers(caliphs) in the earth as He made rulers (caliphs)  those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors.

Who were rulers / caliphs in the Earth before:

-        These included the caliphs as mentioned in the verses of quran:

Allah has used the word ‘Caliph’ in the Holy Quran, thus: إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً I am going to place in the earth a Khalif [Sura Baqra (2):Verse 30] And He, Mighty and Glorified be He declared,

یا دَاوُدُ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاكَ خَلِيفَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ O Dawood! Surely, We have made you a ruler in the land [Sura Sad (38), verse 26]

 It has come in the traditions that he was the Caliph of Allah, the High.

Then the caliphs are the representatives of Allah upon His servants and His deputies for His creatures.

-        Indeed, it’s clear that caliphate is a divine position and Allah’s representation, which cannot be completed nor realized save through divine appointment and none partners Him in this regard.

-        Besides the rational argument that the appointment of Allah’s caliph in the earth necessitates that he should be appointed by Allah only, the verses of the Holy Quran: إنّى جاعِلٌ[4] and إنّا جَعَلناكَ[5] are also evidence enough of the aforementioned fact. For, these two verses clearly suggest that the appointment of a caliph is from the affairs of Allah, the High, and His special acts, in which none partners Him.

Now we look for the following hadith: (Imam Mahdi)

 1.  And, al-Mahalli (d. 864 H) and al-Suyuṭi (d. 911 H) in their Tafsir al-Jalalayn, cap everything:

{و} اذكر يا محمد {إذ قال ربك للملائكة إني جاعل في الأرض خليفة} يخلفني في تنفيذ أحكامي فيها وهو آدم

{And} remember, O Muhammad {when your Lord said to the angels: I will appoint in the earth a khalifah} who will substitute for Me in the implementation of My Laws in it, and he is Adam.

Prophet Muhammad is the supreme khalifah of Allah in our Ummah. However, there are others too besides him among us, non-prophets like us, who are his successors in the khilafah. He has specifically named Imam al-Mahdi as one of these khulafa of our Lord in our blessed Ummah. Imam al-Bazzar (d. 292 H) records:

حدثنا أحمد بن منصور، قال: حدثنا عبد الرزاق، قال أخبرنا الثوري، عن خالد الحذاء، عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء عن ثوبان، رضي الله عنه، قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يقتتل عند كنزكم هذا ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة، ثم لا يصل إلى واحد منهم، ثم تقبل الرايات السود من قبل المشرق فيقتلونكم قتلاً لم يقتله قوم، ثم ذكر شيئا فإذا رأيتموه فبايعوه، ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي.

Ahmad b. Mansur – ‘Abd al-Razzaq – al-Thawri – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma – Thawban, radhiyallahu ‘anhu:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near this treasure of yours, three people will kill one another. Each of them is a son of a khalifah. But it will not reach any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will kill you in a way that no nation had ever done been killed.” Then he mentioned something (and said): “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.

Al-Bazzar himself comments:

فإنا اخترنا هذا الحديث لصحته وجلالة ثوبان وإسناده إسناد صحيح.

We have selected this hadith (for our book) due to its authenticity and the greatness of Thawban, and its chain is a sahih chain.

2.  Imam al-Hakim (d. 403 H) also records:

أخبرنا أبو عبد الله الصفار ثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن أرومة ثنا الحسين بن حفص ثنا سفيان عن خالد الحذاء عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء عن ثوبان رضي الله عنه قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : يقتتل عند كنزكم ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة ثم لا يصير إلى واحد منهم ثم تطلع الرايات السود قبل المشرق فيقاتلونكم قتالا لم يقاتله قوم ثم ذكر شيئا فقال : إذا رأيتموه فبايعوه ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي

Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Saffar – Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Urumah – al-Husayn b. Hafs - Sufyan – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma – Thawban, radhiyallahu ‘anhu:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near your treasure, three people will kill one another. Each of them will be a son of a khalifah. But it will not get to any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will fight you in a way that no nation had ever been fought.” Then he mentioned something and he [the Prophet] said: “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.”

Al-Hakim declares:

هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين

This hadith is sahih upon the standard of the two Shaykhs.

And Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 H) agrees:

على شرط البخاري ومسلم

Upon the standard of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

3.  Al-Hafiz Ibn Kathir (d. 774 H) further documents:

وقال ابن ماجه: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى وأحمد بن يوسف قالا، حدثنا عبد الرزاق عن سفيان الثوري عن خالد الحذاء عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء الرحبي عن ثوبان قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يقتتل عند كنزكم ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة لا يصير إلى واحد منهم ثم تطلع الرايات السود من قبل المشرق فيقتلونكم قتلاً لم يقتله قوم، ثم ذكر شيئا لا أحفظه قال فإذا رأيتموه فبايعوه ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي.

Ibn Majah – Muhammad b. Yahya (al-Dhahli) and Ahmad b. Yusuf – ‘Abd al-Razzaq – Sufyan al-Thawri – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma al-Rahbi – Thawban:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near your treasure, three people will kill one another. Each of them will be a son of a khalifah. But it will not get to any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will kill you in a way that no nation had ever been killed.” Then he mentioned something which I cannot recall. (Then) he said: “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.”

Thus in the light of above verses of quran and authentic hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is confirmed that the verse 24:55 includes Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) as he is the khalifa of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 wasalam

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On 10/19/2021 at 10:58 PM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) wilaya was not only announced at khum but before it on various places two references are Dawat Dhul Ashira and during battle of Tabuk where wilaya of Ameerul Momineen was declared. Khum was the last place at which Wilaya was reminded to all Muslims before they departed to their places. Final declaration was emphasized at their leaving places so that the message must remain afresh and people may remember it clearly. 

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On 12/24/2021 at 2:10 PM, Muslim2010 said:

1.  As per your revised reply Al kafi has 16199 and authentic hadith are 6714.

While in Sahih bukhari hadith are 7526 that are just 7563/16199 =46.68% of shia hadith which shows sunni book Sahih Bukhari hardly passing in comparison to Shia hadith book Al-kafi.  Hadith in bukhari without repetition are just 2600. 

Authentic hadith in  Aklahfi are 6714 that 6714/2600 =  2.582 time (258.23 %) as those of hadith in Sahih bukhari without repetition.

Sahih bukhari has 2600/6714= 38.72%. which is well below passing mark (40%) as per your quoted criteria.

Even the count of hadith in Sahih bukahri is 2600/7563= 34.37% which is quite below the passing criteria as per your post.

Even I do not have count in hand for  authentic hadith by Sunni scholars without repetition. that may further lower down this percentage (34.37%)

The facts given above are just sufficient to reject your false Assumptions for Al-kafi.

Assalama alaykum brother, I hope all’s well with you and your dear family.  My apologies for taking my time to respond. I just wanted to have a long ‘holiday’ from Shiachat so my reason for delay in response.

I can’t believe that you wrote the above!!!!

Anyone who has had secondary school level maths education can clearly see how defective comparison you are making – unbelievable!!  Really, read it again and see it for yourself and how faulty logic you ‘employed.

I can’t make any further comments.

 

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On 2/1/2022 at 2:49 PM, Muslim2010 said:

This verse does not mention about the successor-ship after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The people have not chosen the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then they do not have any right of choosing his successor, it is only the right of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has sent the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

If you consider that the argument is not true then please enlighten us with the example of a caliph/ successor/ leader/ prophet / imams that has been mentioned in quran by name and chosen by the people for their guidance (instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).

The verse is vital to provide the evidence of your false claim before i can give any attention to it even like of that an atom.

wasalam

Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance; - 38 ash-Shura

This verse clearly guides us how to conduct all our affairs of life – this includes political issues.

Please show us any verse from the Blessed Qur’an where it guides to Shia version of imamate after passing away of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  You’ll will never find one.

On 2/1/2022 at 5:16 PM, Muslim2010 said:

None of the hadith does mention that the Abu bakr has been chosen a caliph by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him  as there is no word of caliph /caliphate existing in such hadiths. Thus again your conjectures are proven in violation to the verses of quran and hadith as well.

All the above are just falsely mentioned by sunni for mud like protection of the caliphs chosen by the people for back fitting their violations of man-made caliphate . This is against the verses of quran and authentic hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for following his progeny / Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام).

If you think your claim is true, then Please quote the examples from the verses of quran (by name) of the successors of the prophets or caliphs or imams that have been chosen by the people for their guidance as well as the Name of caliphs chosen by the people those have been selected as by leading  the prayers?

The quran is the first source of religion Islam and the hadith providing further interpretation are ACCEPTABLE only IF the principle is defined in the quran.

As I have not seen so far any verse of quran from your side defining the  man-made caliphate thus your claim for man-made caliphate inline with Quran and hadith is completely false.

wasalam

The very fact that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) chose Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) to lead the prayers in his place when he the unable to lead the Muslims in prayers due to being unwell – clearly shows that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed his preference for Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) to lead the Muslims in prayers in his place.  You well know that Muslims always choose the best person is n by to lead prayers.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not chose Hz Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) for this role.  This clearly disqualifies Shia claim of event of Ghadeer Khum. -  That’s why Shias try play in desperation and vain to downplay this as honour of Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him).

On 2/1/2022 at 5:16 PM, Muslim2010 said:

If you think your claim is true, then Please quote the examples from the verses of quran (by name) of the successors of the prophets or caliphs or imams that have been chosen by the people for their guidance as well as the Name of caliphs chosen by the people those have been selected as by leading  the prayers?

Well, can you use the above to show by using verses of “quran (by name) of the successors” of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)?

 

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On 2/1/2022 at 6:38 PM, Muslim2010 said:

As you are making a claim then we need to verify its validity inline with the verse of quran and hadith, before we can come across a conclusion about it.

Verse of Quran, 24:55

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ  كَمَا اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ وَلَيُمَكِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ دِينَهُمُ الَّذِي ارْتَضَىٰ لَهُمْ وَلَيُبَدِّلَنَّهُم مِّن بَعْدِ خَوْفِهِمْ أَمْنًا ۚ يَعْبُدُونَنِي لَا يُشْرِكُونَ بِي شَيْئًا ۚ وَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers(caliphs) in the earth as He made rulers (caliphs)  those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors.

Who were rulers / caliphs in the Earth before:

-        These included the caliphs as mentioned in the verses of quran:

Allah has used the word ‘Caliph’ in the Holy Quran, thus: إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً I am going to place in the earth a Khalif [Sura Baqra (2):Verse 30] And He, Mighty and Glorified be He declared,

یا دَاوُدُ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاكَ خَلِيفَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ O Dawood! Surely, We have made you a ruler in the land [Sura Sad (38), verse 26]

 It has come in the traditions that he was the Caliph of Allah, the High.

Then the caliphs are the representatives of Allah upon His servants and His deputies for His creatures.

-        Indeed, it’s clear that caliphate is a divine position and Allah’s representation, which cannot be completed nor realized save through divine appointment and none partners Him in this regard.

-        Besides the rational argument that the appointment of Allah’s caliph in the earth necessitates that he should be appointed by Allah only, the verses of the Holy Quran: إنّى جاعِلٌ[4] and إنّا جَعَلناكَ[5] are also evidence enough of the aforementioned fact. For, these two verses clearly suggest that the appointment of a caliph is from the affairs of Allah, the High, and His special acts, in which none partners Him.

Now we look for the following hadith: (Imam Mahdi)

 1.  And, al-Mahalli (d. 864 H) and al-Suyuṭi (d. 911 H) in their Tafsir al-Jalalayn, cap everything:

{و} اذكر يا محمد {إذ قال ربك للملائكة إني جاعل في الأرض خليفة} يخلفني في تنفيذ أحكامي فيها وهو آدم

{And} remember, O Muhammad {when your Lord said to the angels: I will appoint in the earth a khalifah} who will substitute for Me in the implementation of My Laws in it, and he is Adam.

Prophet Muhammad is the supreme khalifah of Allah in our Ummah. However, there are others too besides him among us, non-prophets like us, who are his successors in the khilafah. He has specifically named Imam al-Mahdi as one of these khulafa of our Lord in our blessed Ummah. Imam al-Bazzar (d. 292 H) records:

حدثنا أحمد بن منصور، قال: حدثنا عبد الرزاق، قال أخبرنا الثوري، عن خالد الحذاء، عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء عن ثوبان، رضي الله عنه، قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يقتتل عند كنزكم هذا ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة، ثم لا يصل إلى واحد منهم، ثم تقبل الرايات السود من قبل المشرق فيقتلونكم قتلاً لم يقتله قوم، ثم ذكر شيئا فإذا رأيتموه فبايعوه، ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي.

Ahmad b. Mansur – ‘Abd al-Razzaq – al-Thawri – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma – Thawban, radhiyallahu ‘anhu:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near this treasure of yours, three people will kill one another. Each of them is a son of a khalifah. But it will not reach any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will kill you in a way that no nation had ever done been killed.” Then he mentioned something (and said): “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.

Al-Bazzar himself comments:

فإنا اخترنا هذا الحديث لصحته وجلالة ثوبان وإسناده إسناد صحيح.

We have selected this hadith (for our book) due to its authenticity and the greatness of Thawban, and its chain is a sahih chain.

2.  Imam al-Hakim (d. 403 H) also records:

أخبرنا أبو عبد الله الصفار ثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن أرومة ثنا الحسين بن حفص ثنا سفيان عن خالد الحذاء عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء عن ثوبان رضي الله عنه قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : يقتتل عند كنزكم ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة ثم لا يصير إلى واحد منهم ثم تطلع الرايات السود قبل المشرق فيقاتلونكم قتالا لم يقاتله قوم ثم ذكر شيئا فقال : إذا رأيتموه فبايعوه ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي

Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Saffar – Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Urumah – al-Husayn b. Hafs - Sufyan – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma – Thawban, radhiyallahu ‘anhu:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near your treasure, three people will kill one another. Each of them will be a son of a khalifah. But it will not get to any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will fight you in a way that no nation had ever been fought.” Then he mentioned something and he [the Prophet] said: “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.”

Al-Hakim declares:

هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين

This hadith is sahih upon the standard of the two Shaykhs.

And Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 H) agrees:

على شرط البخاري ومسلم

Upon the standard of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

3.  Al-Hafiz Ibn Kathir (d. 774 H) further documents:

وقال ابن ماجه: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى وأحمد بن يوسف قالا، حدثنا عبد الرزاق عن سفيان الثوري عن خالد الحذاء عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء الرحبي عن ثوبان قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يقتتل عند كنزكم ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة لا يصير إلى واحد منهم ثم تطلع الرايات السود من قبل المشرق فيقتلونكم قتلاً لم يقتله قوم، ثم ذكر شيئا لا أحفظه قال فإذا رأيتموه فبايعوه ولو حبوا على الثلج فإنه خليفة الله المهدي.

Ibn Majah – Muhammad b. Yahya (al-Dhahli) and Ahmad b. Yusuf – ‘Abd al-Razzaq – Sufyan al-Thawri – Khalid al-Hadha – Abu Qilabah – Abu Asma al-Rahbi – Thawban:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Near your treasure, three people will kill one another. Each of them will be a son of a khalifah. But it will not get to any of them. Then the black flags will come from the East, and they will kill you in a way that no nation had ever been killed.” Then he mentioned something which I cannot recall. (Then) he said: “When you see him, pledge allegiance to him, even if you have to crawl on snow, for verily he is the khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.”

Thus in the light of above verses of quran and authentic hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is confirmed that the verse 24:55 includes Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) as he is the khalifa of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 wasalam

History is proof of who was leading the Muslim Ummah successfully and spread the Islam to the far corners of the World.

Allah has promised those of you who believe and do good that He will certainly make them successors in the land, as He did with those before them; and will surely establish for them their faith which He has chosen for them; and will indeed change their fear into security—˹provided that˺ they worship Me, associating nothing with Me. But whoever disbelieves after this ˹promise˺, it is they who will be the rebellious. Verse 55 Surah An-Nur

The above blessed ayah doesn’t not exclusively apply to Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) – The blessed ayah is in plural - meaning many leaders.

And the last sentence of the blessed verse -  “But whoever disbelieves after this ˹promise˺, it is they who will be the rebellious” -  Won’t be applying to Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) as he will be from the rightly guided Khalifs like those before him – (Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Khattab, Hz. Uthman bin Affan and Hz. Ali bin Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with them all)!!!!!!

 

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On 12/23/2021 at 6:08 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Could you please provide an authentic reference for your statement as the discussion is a religious and serious  discussion instead of a cut paste from wikipedia (being unauthentic) for this important discussion?

Assalama alaykum brother, You had responded by above to my posting the article below in Wikipedia – everything in Wikipedia is not unauthentic – this article provides all the references – and none are from Sunni sources.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam#:~:text=The%20Safavid%20conversion%20of%20Iran,spiritual%20bastion%20of%20Shia%20Islam.

 

Brother, Please don’t just write off the facts – just because I have quoted from Wikipedia.  All the statements made are clearly referenced and nobody has challenged the references (provided).

I am going to give you similar information from other sources which clearly collaborate and confirm the facts that Safavids brutally and savagely converted Iranians from overwhelmingly Sunni to Shia state from 1500 onwards.

 BBC Religion - Religion in the Safavid Empire - the negatives

One of Shah Ismail's most important decisions was to declare that the state religion would be the form of Islam called Shi'ism, that at the time was completely foreign to Iranian culture.

The Safavids launched a vigorous campaign to convert what was then a predominantly Sunni population by persuasion and by force. The Sunni ulama (a religious council of wise men) either left or were killed.

To promote Shi'ism the Safavids brought in scholars from Shi'ite countries to form a new religious elite. They appointed an official (the Sadr) to co-ordinate this elite - and ensure that it did what the Shah wanted. The religious leaders effectively became a tool of the government.

The Safavids also spent money to promote religion, making grants to shrines and religious schools. And most craftily of all, they used grants of land and money to create a new class of wealthy religious aristocrats who owed everything to the state.

In specifically religious terms the Safavids not only persecuted Sunni Muslims, but Shi'ites with different views, and all other religions. Alien shrines were vandalised, and Sufi mystic groups forbidden.

This was surprising, since the Safavids owed their origins to a Sufi order and to a form of Shi'ism that they now banned. They also reduced the importance of the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca), replacing it with pilgrimage to Shi'ite shrines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/safavidempire_1.shtml

1) Safavids main target was the Sunni Muslim community of Iran which was the majority of Iranian population at inception of Safavid Empire. They considered them possible fifth column since main rivals of Safavids were Sunni Ottomans who were expanding further and beyond at an alarming pace. Therefore, most of conversion process was focused on Sunnis. Others they either treated with indifference or sheer contempt.

Reasons behind Ismaili Conversion Campaign

Following are the reasons cited by historical sources:

1) Ismail I's hatred for Sunnis was known to have no bounds. No wonder he sought to destroy them altogether in his domain when he got power.

2) One of the main reasons why Ismail and his followers pursued such a severe conversion policy was to give Iran and the Safavid lands as distinct and unique an identity as was possible compared to its two neighboring Sunni Turkish military and political enemies, its main enemy and arch rival the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, the Central Asian Uzbeks — to the west and north-east respectively. Particularly, since the elite Qizilbash army was of a Turkic origin, fighting Turkic Ottomans would have caused a major uprising among them. Hence conversion to Shi'ism was a necessary step in deepening the enmity between Safavid and Ottomans.

3) The Safavids were engaged in a lengthy struggle with the Ottomans — including numerous wars between the two dynasties — and this struggle continuously motivated the Safavids to create a more cohesive Iranian identity to counter the Ottoman threat and possibility of a fifth-column within Iran among its Sunni subjects.

4) The conversion was part of the process of building a territory that would be loyal to the state and its institutions, thus enabling the state and its institutions to propagate their rule throughout the whole territory.

5) By aligning religious interests of the general populace to that of the ruling dynasty (Especially as Iran was surrounded by Sunni states from all sides and thus was threatened), Safavids ensured continued loyalty of populace as they would have been seen as bulwark of Shiism against onslaught of Sunnis.

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/3213/did-the-safavid-rulers-require-all-subjects-to-convert-to-shia-islam

The enthronement of the Safavids, a militant Shi'ite dynasty with Messianic claims, in Iran at the beginning of the sixteenth century also led to a worsening in the position (Along with outright destruction of Sunni Muslims) of the non-Muslims, Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. Under the Safavid shahs, they were subject to frequent vexations and persecutions, and at times to forced conversions.

Muhammad Baqir Majlisi saw it as his mission to root out heresy wherever it might be found and, in the absence of the controlling hand of the Shah, not just non-Muslim communities, but all non-Ithna Asharı Shıa, suffered from his bigotry. Thus remnants of Sunnı¯ Muslim groups, such as the Kurds and Sufıs (Islamic mystics), once again became targets of his persecution.

https://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Central_Asian_Topics/sub8_8b/entry-4510.html

History of Iran Safavid Empire 1502 – 1736 By: Shapour Ghasemi

A militant Islamic Sufi order, the Safavids, appeared among Turkish speaking people of west of the Caspian Sea, at Ardabil. The Safavid order survived the invasion of Timur to that part of the Iran in the late 13th century. By 1500 the Safavids had adopted the Shi'a branch of Islam and were eager to advance Shi'ism by military means.

https://www.iranchamber.com/history/safavids/safavids.php

This is Iranian/Shia site – See how they give the facts that Safavids brutally with military might mercilessly converted overwhelmingly Sunni Iran to Shia by sugar coating these facts by stating “were eager to advance Shi'ism by military means”.

History of Iran changes dramatically when Safavids conquered Iran from 1501AD and with brutal force and savagery changed Iran from overwhelming Sunni state to Shia state. Safavid Empire lasted up to 1736.

 Shah Ismail I the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Iran ruled from 1501 to 1524

Ironically, this was to the extent that up until the end of the 15th century the Ottoman Empire (the most powerful and prominent Sunni state and future arch-enemy of the Shia Safavids) used to send many of its Ulama (Islamic scholars) to Iran to further their education in Sunni Islam, due to a lack of Madrasahs (Islamic schools) within the Ottoman Empire itself.*[9] Persia was also a seat of Sunni learning.*[10] The Sunni Iranians had always held the family of Muhammad in high esteem.*[11] In contrast, before the Safavid period, a minority of Iranians were Shia and there had been relatively few Shia Ulama in Iran.*[12]

References:

*9) The Ottoman Empire: The Classical Age, 1300–1600, by Halil Inalcik, pg.167. *10) "The Origins Of The Shiite-Sunni Split". NPR.org. Retrieved 14 February 2021.  *11) Subtelny, Maria (2007). Timurids in Transition: Turko-Persian Politics and Acculturation in Medieval Iran. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-16031-6.*12) John Obert Voll (1994). Islam, continuity and change in the modern world. Internet Archive. Syracuse University Press. ISBN 978-0-8156-2639-8.

 Methods of converting Iran and Azerbaijan

Ismail consolidated his rule over the country and launched a thorough and, at times, brutal campaign to convert the majority Sunni population to Twelver Shiism and thus transform the religious landscape of Iran. *[21]

His methods of converting Iran and Azerbaijan included:

Imposing Shiism as the state and mandatory religion for the whole nation and much forcible conversion of Iranian Sufi Sunnis to Shiism. *[22] *[23] *[24]

He reintroduced the Sadr (Arabic, leader) – an office that was responsible for supervising religious institutions and endowments. With a view to transforming Iran into a Shiite state, the Sadr was also assigned the task of disseminating Twelver doctrine. *[25]

He destroyed Sunni mosques. This was even noted by Tomé Pires, the Portuguese ambassador to China who visited Iran in 1511–12, who when referring to Ismail noted: "He (i.e., Ismail) reforms our churches, destroys the houses of all Moors who follow (the Sunnah of) Muhammad…"*[26]

He enforced the ritual and compulsory cursing of the first three Sunni Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman) as usurpers, from all mosques, disbanded Sunni Tariqahs and seized their assets, used state patronage to develop Shia shrines, institutions and religious art and imported Shia scholars to replace Sunni scholars*[27] *[28] *[29]

He killed Sunnis and destroyed and desecrated their graves and mosques. This caused the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II (who initially congratulated Ismail on his victories) to advise and ask the young monarch (in a "fatherly" manner) to stop the anti-Sunni actions. However, Ismail was strongly anti-Sunni, ignored the Sultan's warning, and continued to spread the Shia faith by the sword. *[30]*[31]

He persecuted, imprisoned, exiled, and executed stubbornly resistant Sunnis. *[32]*[33]

With the establishment of Safavid rule, there was a very raucous and colourful, almost carnival-like holiday on 26 Dhu al-Hijjah (or alternatively, 9 Rabi' al-awwal) celebrating the Eid-e-Shuja' or Celebration of assassination of Caliph Umar. The highlight of the day was making an effigy of Umar to be cursed, insulted, and finally burned. However, as relations between Iran and Sunni countries improved, the holiday was no longer observed (at least officially).[34]

In 1501, Ismail invited all the Shia living outside Iran to come to Iran and be assured of protection from the Sunni majority. *[35]

references:

*21) The modern Middle East: a political history since the First World War. Mehran Kamrava, p. 29. *22) Modern Iran: roots and results of revolution]. Nikki R Keddie, Yann Richard, pp. 13, 20  *23) The Encyclopedia of world history: ancient, medieval, and modern. Peter N. Stearns, William Leonard Langer, p. 360
*24) Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R Ward, pg.43 *25 Iran: a short history: from Islamization to the present. Monika Gronke, p. 91. *26) The Judeo-Persian poet ‘Emrānī and his "Book of treasure": ‘Emrānī's Ganǰ… 'Emrānī, David Yeroushalmi, p. 20. *27) A new introduction to Islam. Daniel W Brown, p. 191. *28) Encyclopaedic Historiography of the Muslim World. NK Singh, A Samiuddin, p. 90. *29) The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72. *30) Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R. Ward, p. 44. *31) Iran and America: re-kindling a love lost]. Badi Badiozamani, pp. 174–5.  *32) The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72. *33) Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51. *34) Culture and customs of Iran. Elton L Daniel, 'Alī Akbar Mahdī, p. 185. *35) Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51.

Abbas I of Persia

Shiism did not become fully established until the reign of Abbas I of Persia (1587–1629). *[64] Abbas hated the Sunnis, and forced the population to accept Twelver Shiism*[65] Thus by 1602 most of the formerly Sunnis of Iran had accepted Shiism. A significant number, however, did not accept Safavid rule, prompting Abbas to institute a number of administrative changes in order to further transform Iran into a Twelver Shia state. *[66]

*[64] Safavid Iran: rebirth of a Persian empire. Andrew J Newman, p. 118. *[65] Distant relations: Iran and Lebanon in the last 500 years. H. E. Chehabi, Rula Jurdi Abisaab, Centre for Lebanese Studies (Great Britain), p. 88. *[66] The failure of political Islam. Olivier Roy, Carol Volk, p. 170.

Baqir Majlisi -

Under the guidance of Muhammad Baqir Majlisi (1616–98, one of the most important Shiite clerics of all time), who devoted himself to (among other things) the eradication of Sunnism in Iran, *[67] the Safavid state made major efforts, in the 17th century to Persianize Shiite practice and culture in order to facilitate its spread in Iran among its Sunni populace. *[68] It was only under Majlisi that Shi'a Islam truly took hold among the masses. *[69]

*[67] The Encyclopedia of world history: ancient, medieval, and modern. Peter N. Stearns, William Leonard Langer, p. 363. *[68] The Arab Shi'a: The Forgotten Muslims. Graham E. Fuller, Rend Rahim Francke, p. 76. *[69] Molavi, Afshin, The Soul of Iran, Norton, 2005, p. 170.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

Introduction of Shia practices by Baqir Majlisi.

He also re-established clerical authority under his leadership, "and renewed the impetus for conversion from Sunni to Shi'a school."* [5] Majlesi is "credited with propagating numerous Shi'a rituals that Iranians regularly practice", such as mourning ceremonies for the fallen Twelve Imams, particularly the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali at Karbala, and pilgrimages to shrines of imams and their families. *[6]
References

* [5] Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World, (2004), p.425 *[6] Molavi, Afshin (2002). Persian Pilgrimages: Journeys Across Iran. Norton. p. 170. ISBN 978-0-393-05119-3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Baqer_Majlesi

One can’t brush off facts under the carpet just because they go against your sect. 

This is definitely my last post in this thread.

With best duas for you and your dear family - May Allah Almighty bless you all with the best

Wasalaam

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11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please show us any verse from the Blessed Qur’an where it guides to Shia version of imamate after passing away of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  You’ll will never find one.

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Here you go brother, this verse tells us about Imamate that refer to those who are granted Authority by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). You cannot now refute this verse, can you. Besides that, the verse of consultation was about matters where you cannot reach to Imam like in our age where Imam is in occultation. Consultation while Imam is present among us is haram because in matters where you have a knowledgeable person amongst you, you cannot refer the matter to people who have less or no knowledge of it as was done during the time of First and Second Caliph that when they failed in their consultations, they referred matter to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). So, even their life experience tells us that consultation was waste of time while Imam was present.  For further please also read this verse:

[Shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
 

11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The very fact that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) chose Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) to lead the prayers in his place when he the unable to lead the Muslims in prayers due to being unwell – clearly shows that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed his preference for Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) to lead the Muslims in prayers in his place.  You well know that Muslims always choose the best person is n by to lead prayers.

 

The event is wrong both historically and according to Sunnah. No person can lead prayer while Prophet is alive and amongst them and if he does so his prayer is batil and it also holds for Imam that if ummah accords Imamat of salaat to anyone who is not real Imam which is present among them, his prayer is void. The second issue is that historical books tells us that When Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP) heard that Hazrat Abu Bakar was leading prayer, he at once ordered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abbas to take them to Masjid where He (PBUHHP) removed Hazrat Abu bakar from Imamat and lead himself his prayer. 

While you see this only single incident as establishing of caliphate in which Prophet removed Hazrat Abu Bakar from leading prayer, why do you ignore establishing of Caliphate which is explicitly mentioned during the incident of Dhul Ashira, During Tabuk and During Ghadir Khum where Prophet clearly said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is my successor, wali and Mola. 
 

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7 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Here you go brother, this verse tells us about Imamate that refer to those who are granted Authority by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). You cannot now refute this verse, can you.

Assalama alaykum brother, I have to break my self-imposed ‘exile’ from this thread to respond to you your post.

I read the blessed ayah quoted by you [Qur’an 4:59] several times. I couldn’t find any hint of Shia version of imamate in this blessed verse.  If you want to stretch “those in authority from among youto mean Shia version of imamate to suit your sectarian obligations – well, no one can stop you.

7 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

[Shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

As far as I know, every Ummah will be standing behind their respective Prophets on the Day of Qiyyamah; Muslims will be standing behind the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

7 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

The event is wrong both historically and according to Sunnah. No person can lead prayer while Prophet is alive and amongst them and if he does so his prayer is batil and it also holds for Imam that if ummah accords Imamat of salaat to anyone who is not real Imam which is present among them, his prayer is void. The second issue is that historical books tells us that When Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP) heard that Hazrat Abu Bakar was leading prayer, he at once ordered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abbas to take them to Masjid where He (PBUHHP) removed Hazrat Abu bakar from Imamat and lead himself his prayer. 

While you see this only single incident as establishing of caliphate in which Prophet removed Hazrat Abu Bakar from leading prayer, why do you ignore establishing of Caliphate which is explicitly mentioned during the incident of Dhul Ashira, During Tabuk and During Ghadir Khum where Prophet clearly said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is my successor, wali and Mola

Yes, that’s the Shia version of history. Shias are only 12% of Muslim Ummah. 88% of Muslim do not agree with Shia version of history as it is distorted to meet sectarian obligations.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Yes, that’s the Shia version of history. Shias are only 12% of Muslim Ummah. 88% of Muslim do not agree with Shia version of history as it is distorted to meet sectarian obligations.

In reality all of them are distorted because 1400 years include all the possible of changes by governments, scholars, environmental effects. No sect accept other one but itself so your logic does not hold at all.

Edited by Abu Nur
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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Yes, that’s the Shia version of history. Shias are only 12% of Muslim Ummah. 88% of Muslim do not agree with Shia version of history as it is distorted to meet sectarian obligations.

Majority is not the authority here my friend but righteousness is as the Quran says few are those who believe. 

If we sum up all religions except Islam, they are more than Muslims but their denial of Islam does not make them right.

So, even if 12% of shia is 100 percent right, I will have to agree to it. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

In reality all of them are distorted because 1400 years include all the possible of changes by governments, scholars, environmental effects. No sect accept other one but itself so your logic does not hold at all.

Surely, they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. Verse 159 Surah an Anaam

Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them - Verse 30 Surah ar-Rum

Safety lies being with Majority of BELIEVERS rather than with those on the fringe.

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1 hour ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Majority is not the authority here my friend but righteousness is as the Quran says few are those who believe. 

If we sum up all religions except Islam, they are more than Muslims but their denial of Islam does not make them right.

So, even if 12% of shia is 100 percent right, I will have to agree to it. 

The Blessed of Qur'an says the MAJORITY OF MANKIND will not believe!!!!!!

Here we are talking about MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS and not majority of MANKIND! 

The Blessed Qur'an has never ever stated that MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS will not believe.  

Safety lies being with Majority of BELIEVERS rather than with those on the fringe.

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Surely, they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. Verse 159 Surah an Anaam

This verse is about the Prophet should not be affiliated with such a group that separated from him and made groups because he himself is the criterion. 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them - Verse 30 Surah ar-Rum

We believe the Imams are the rightful criterion and the proof of God thus all others seperated from them making others the ones who did not align with them and thus seperated from them. It has nothing to do with minority or majority of ummah. The majority of Christians and jews are wrong lol, so there is that logic there.

Only a few will be a believer, this has been repeated many times in Qur'an. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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