Why did rasool announce khilafat of mawla Ali in Ghadeer Khum not in Arafat

[Guest Ali]

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

[Defender_of_Truth]

He also announced it at Arafaat... 
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49/185

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam destination  is not important because order is revealed on prophet Muhammad  (pbu) in place of Khum which he always has followed order of Allah instead of his desire also on the other hand based on some stories & reports he has announced it to trustworthy  people for avoiding his enemies & enemies  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) while in Khum Allah has protected them from enemies  for declaring in public even between enemies of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

[power]

On 10/19/2021 at 6:58 PM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) mentioned he's leaving Quran and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in detail at Arafat. Therefore, everybody who were present at Arafat were aware.

[Muslim2010]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:58 AM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Shakir: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much (33:21)

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

Shakir:  And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying. (33:36)

wasalam

[ShiaMan14]

On 10/19/2021 at 12:58 PM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

No, it was not better because then the entire narrative would be that "Ali is mawla/khalifa" during hajj ONLY.

So he held an independent event to highlight its importance. It was best to do it post hajj since that was the largest gathering of Muslims at that time. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Da'wat ul-Ashira, when the Holy Prophet now warns his nearest relatives in Surah 26 Verse no 240 I know all of you have heard Majalis on Dawat ul-Ashira. Yeah? Surah 26,Verse no.240. It's amazing how long Surah Ash-Shu'ara is, but then poets can be long people. So, Sura 26, verse no 214. You come to that Ayat, all of you have read this ayat before. "Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim .......Wa Andhir Asheerataka al-Aqrabeen" (26:214). "Warn your nearest relatives". Now, I'm going to warn my nearest relatives. Who of my relatives is cotch, who is a cool relative of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him and his family?

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You know, I must admit, I didn't screen or I didn't script this particular part that I'm saying, but it's like any Arab family, you got the good, the bad and the ugly. And what you have here is that Abu Talib is there, Imam Ali is there and the Prophet, peace be upon him and his family, tries to make it clear that, look, have I ever lied to any of you guys? No you're Sadiq! Am I someone who's stolen anything, for example? No, you're Amin!

If I were to tell you about God and the Day of Judgment, that I am a Prophet, would you believe me? Who was the first to laugh? And to mock? You always have a family member who's antagonising. Always try and put down. And your Prophet had that. So who are you to escape? People always say to me. I don't want to come to the mosque anymore, say why? He said Because people chat rubbish, they chat nonsense. They chat behind my back, I'm not coming to majaalis anymore. I say when Nabi Musa said that to God and he said, God, why do people chat behind my back? Why don't you stop them? God said to him, I haven't given myself that honour. People chat about me, I haven't stopped them. They said I don't even exist. I haven't stopped them. So why should you have a right that you should walk into a mosque where everyone praises you?

And sometimes in life, if everyone doesn't praise you, it shows you have principles. And, so what happens with the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him and his family, is that what he sees, is his uncle plainly saying, "what a load of nonsense, there's a Day of Judgment and there is equality for male and female and black and white and so". The Prophet stands at Mount Safa, all of you have been inshaAllah to Hajj, or to 'Umrah and you might have gone to Mount Safa or Marw'a or you know, you go to these parts. There's a lot of heritage there inshaAllah that heritage returns.

And he stands there and says to the people, it makes it clear. That if I were to tell you there's an enemy or opposition coming from there, would you believe me? Of course. So I tell you that there is a day called the Day of Judgment. That's the day we're going to be resurrected. Now, something interesting here. If he said, I'm telling you to believe in God, would Abu Lahab have a problem with that? Not really, because they all believe in God, but they put a timthaal, for example, or statue. Idols.

 

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And Abu Lahab, what do you think? Abu Lahab was someone who himself was doing all of this? Most of the time behind every great man, there's a great woman. Sometimes behind some of the most evil men, there is an evil woman. That lady was telling him,"Mudhammam, you finish him". Who's Mudhammam? Who's Mudhammam? She wouldn't ever called him Muhamad. It's too nice a name for him. Allahu Akbar. Do you know when Imam Ali, alayhi assalam, was being cursed on the Manabir, they reached a stage where people wouldn't name Ali, they would put the name is 'Ulayy. They couldn't take saying Ali. Too much venom, some had to hide their name and say that their name is Ulayy, not Ali.

This lady wouldn't call him Muhammad. She would say, Mudhammam, Mudhammam. She would be looking for him at every time because of all this hate, what else would she do? She'd spread jealousy everywhere. The ayats of the Surah explain all of it for you. "Tabbat Yadaa Abi Lahabi Wa Tabb". (111:1)

 

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And that's why it was always remembered, even by Imam Ali, alayhi assalam, when he saw Muawiya at Siffin. There's a difference from my lineage. There's a difference with your lineage. You oh Muawiya, the difference with your lineage and mine. I come from the best of women, whereas your lineage, one side you have Hind and another side you have who? Umm Jamil. Because Umm Jamil is his aunt and Hind is his mother. So even for Imam Ali, alayhi assalam, he would make it clear. That from our side, look at the ladies, whereas from your side Allah put your aunt in the Qur'an. And until today, you have people no problem with Bani Umayyah. Bani Umayyah are good, you cannot say a word about them, Allah for goodness sake said that the aunt from one side "Wa amra'atahu hammalata al-Hatab"(111:4), from the other side you have got one who was a cannibal and who ended up eating the other uncle's liver.

And so, therefore, in the story of the main lessons to be gained, is that in life, even your closest, maybe the test Allah sends up on you. But as long as you have that faith and as long as you have that sincerity, whatever money, whatever power, whatever slander they do on you, ultimately there 'izzah and protection comes from Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala.

https://www.al-islam.org/media/quran-tafsir-surah-al-masad-111

[Ashvazdanghe]

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Sunni perspective
The verse is mentioned in several Hadiths. One hadith in Sahih Bukhari states that Muhammad called individuals from various clans of the Quraysh tribe to a mountain in Mecca, and informed them of their impending punishment from Allah if they did not embrace his religion.[3] The hadith says that Muhammad's uncle Abu Lahab disparaged him for the gathering, resulting in his damnation in the Quran.[4]

Shia perspective
According to one Shia tradition, after the verse was revealed, Muhammad invited his close relatives to the home of his uncle, Abu Talib, for a meal. In addition to Abu Talib himself, his uncles Hamza and Abu Lahab accepted the invitation. Muhammad's attempts to proselytize those gathered were interrupted by Abu Lahab, but he was able to declare his message during a similar gathering the next day. The tradition states that of all those gathered, only Ali, Abu Talib's son, accepted the message. This prompted Muhammad to declare him his heir.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warning_Verse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verse_of_Wilayah

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/حدیث_یوم_الدار

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Inviting the Kins to Islam and Declaring 'Ali (a) as the Vicegerent

According to what is mentioned in Shi'a and Sunni commentaries of the Qur'an, after receiving this command, the Prophet (s) invited 40 of his nearest kins for a meal. He then said to them:

O Children of 'Abd al-Muttalib! I do not think anyone from among the Arabs has [ever] brought his people something better than what I have brought for you. I have brought you [the happiness of] this world and the hereafter... I invite you to two words (i.e. phrases), and with these two words you will enter paradise and be saved from hell. These two words are saying that "there is no god but God" (لا اله الا الله), and testifying that I am the prophet of God.

Then he (s) said, "Which one of you will help me in this [mission] and become my vicegerent and deputy?" Everyone was silent. Then 'Ali (a) said, "O Messenger of God, I will!" The Prophet (s) then said, "This is my vicegerent and caliph among you. Listen to what he (a) says and follow his orders." After this speech, some of the Prophet's (s) kins told Abu Talib [sarcastically], "Obey your child, since he (a) has become superior to you!"^[1]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Qur'an_26:214

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Hadith Yawm al-Dar

 

 

For similar terms, see Yawm al-Dar (disambiguation).

Ḥadith Yawm al-Dār (Arabic: حدیث یوم الدار) known also as Ḥadith Yawm al-Indhār and Ḥadith al-'Ashira is a hadith from the Prophet (s) in which he asks his kinsmen to accept his call to Islam and he declares Ali b. Abi Talib (a) as his immediate successor. According to sources of history, hadiths and Qur'anic exegesis, the story has occurred in the third year of his Bi'tha when he was required by verse 214 of Qur'an 26, known as the al-Indhar Verse, to call his close kinsmen to Islam. The hadith is one of the of evidence appealed to by Imamiyya scholars of theology to show the immediate succession of the Prophet (s) by Imam Ali (a).

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_Yawm_al-Dar

[Ali_Zaen_al_Abidin]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:52 AM, Defender_of_Truth said:

He also announced it at Arafaat... 
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49/185

That is not appointment of Sayyidina Ali رضي الله عنه at all. Not a very good twist. Lol

[Debate follower]

On 10/19/2021 at 6:58 PM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

Guest Ali Assalama alaykum. You are indeed thinking on the right lines!

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) made his last Sermon on Jabal ar-Raḥmah (Mount Arafat), also known as the Khutbat al-Wada', to his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) who had accompanied him for the Hajj towards the end of his Blessed life. More than 100,000 believers accompanied him in this. All these believers had come from all areas within the Arabian Peninsula, from East, West, North and South of Makkah al Mukkarmah.

On this Farewell Sermon, which was attended by the largest gathering of Believers with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), he addressed all the important and essential issues there and then. He set some rules and gave solid advice to his followers and reminded them of the day that they will face Allah Almighty and account for their deeds.

Then he asked his followers to confirm that he had delivered all the message of Allah Almighty to the Mankind. His followers confirmed this, and he then asked Allah Almighty to bear witness three times that he had delivered the full message. Nothing important was left out!

Overwhelming majority of Muslims believe that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din “Today the faithless have despaired of your religion. So do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam as your religion” was revealed sometime at this point.  Of course, Shias are of a view that it was revealed in Khum Ghadir.

[Debate follower]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:37 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam destination  is not important because order is revealed on prophet Muhammad  (pbu) in place of Khum which he always has followed order of Allah instead of his desire also on the other hand based on some stories & reports he has announced it to trustworthy  people for avoiding his enemies & enemies  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) while in Khum Allah has protected them from enemies  for declaring in public even between enemies of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam. What a flawed logic!!!  So, according to your sources the ‘supposed enemies’ of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) were present at Arafat area!!!!!!!?????
According to your claim Allah Almighty then cleared all the ‘supposed enemies’ of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) at Ghadeer Khum area. So, now the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) could safely proclaim what he had to!  Right? 

Are you really sure that at Khum Ghadir there were no ‘hidden enemies’ of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) at Ghadeer Khum area? 

Are you claiming that Allah Almighty was helpless against protecting the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) at Arafat area???  You are just speculating miserably.

What about the following ayah which the Shias use for Khum Ghadir? Doesn’t this apply in Arafat area?

"O Apostle! Proclaim the message which has been sent to you from your Lord. If you do not do it, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed this mission. And Allah will defend you against men who mean mischief. For Allah guides not those who reject faith." (Al Quran 5:67).

[Debate follower]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:49 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

No, it was not better because then the entire narrative would be that "Ali is mawla/khalifa" during hajj ONLY.

So he held an independent event to highlight its importance. It was best to do it post hajj since that was the largest gathering of Muslims at that time. 

Assalama alaykum brother ShiaMan14 – The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never uttered anything ambiguous. All his sayings were always very clear and precise. He never uttered anything about his successor. Mawla does NOT mean Khalifa (successor) by any stretch of imagination!!!

On 10/28/2021 at 7:49 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

So he held an independent event to highlight its importance. It was best to do it post hajj since that was the largest gathering of Muslims at that time. 

Is it not utterly important to state the most important at the largest gathering??

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) gave very important Universal message/instructions in Arafat as he was addressing the largest gathering of the Believers from all the corners of Arabian Peninsula. He had never addressed a larger gathering of this magnitude before or after this event.

So, its  important to know the size of gathering at Khum Ghadeer?

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Number of Audience

There is disagreement regarding the number of audience in the event of Ghadir Khum. They have been mentioned 10 thousand [8] *, 12 thousand [9] *, 17 thousand [10]* or 70 thousand [11]* people.

Regarding the capacity of the area in Ghadir Khum, the population of Medina in 10/632 and also the number of people who went to hajj in farewell Hajj, the least number reported which is 10 thousand people is more credible [12]*.

8* al-'Ayyashi, Vol.1, P.332 
9* al-'Ayyashi, Vol,1, P.329
10*al-Shu'ayri, P.10
11* al-Tabrasi, al-Ihtijaj, Vol.1, P.56
12*   Sayyid Jalal Imam

Tafsir Ayyashi is an Imami Shia exegesis of the Quran, written by Mohammad ibn Masoud Ayyashi also known as al-ʿAyyashi (الـعـيـّاشـي d. 320 AH / 932 CE).

Al-Iḥtijāj or ʿalā ahl al-lijāj (Arabic: الإحتجاج على أهل اللجاج‎), best known as al-Ihtijaj (Arabic: :الإحتجاج‎) is a secondary book of Hadith written by Abu Mansur, Ahmad b. Ali b. Abi Talib al-Tabrisi (died in 599 AH/1202 CE)

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Event_of_Ghadir  This is a Shia managed wiki site so you should accept the facts.

Interesting debate on Shiachat in July 2008.

100,000 Witnesses At Ghadeer!? 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234948770-100000-witnesses-at-ghadeer/

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Are you really sure that at Khum Ghadir there were no ‘hidden enemies’ of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) at Ghadeer Khum area? 

Salam both Shias & Sunnis have agreement on existance of hypocrites during era of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which even they have tried to assassinate  prophet Muhammd (pbu) after returning from  Ghazwa of Tabuk  which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has not punished them but on the other hand introduced them to companion Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman (رضي الله عنه) which these hypocrites have been ‘hidden enemies’ of both of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which although they have geeted appointing Imam Ali(عليه السلام) as successor of prophet Muhammad (pbu) but after demise of prophet Muhammad (pbu) they have showed their true color then after hijaking successorship & martyring lady Fatima (sa) they have degraded incident of Ghadeer Khum to solving problem of companions with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & just introducing him as his friend but on the other hand they have focused on fake story of friendship of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Abubakr for justifying hijaking of successorship by hypocrites & ‘hidden enemies’ likewise cursed Muawiah (la)  of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

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The Incident According to Historical Sources
The Aqaba assassination plot was mentioned in several Islamic history books including ‘Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal’ (d. 241 AH/855 AD), ‘Sahih Muslim ibn al-Hajja’j (d. 261 AH), the ‘History of the Prophets and Kings’ by ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 31 AH), and ‘The Complete History’ by Ali ibn al-Athir (d. 630 AH).

 

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The story states that the Prophet then told Hudhayfah the names of the men, and that they were hypocrites that put on the mask of faith while hiding heresy and impiety. When Hudhayfah asks why the men were left alive, the Prophet said, “I do not wish for people to talk and say that Mohammad laid his hand on his companions.”

 

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Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Talha, and Sa’d ibn abi Waqqas wanting to kill the Prophet and throw him off the Aqaba in Tabuk.

anyway Sunnis & people likewise you deny it 

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The main problem with the aforementioned hadith is that it is completely unheard of in the books of Sunni scholarship we have today. We do not know how it reached Ibn Hazm, even though it was probably found in hadith journals and was later omitted from Sunni scholarship following the fifth century AH for the appalling claim it made against five of the most esteemed and revered companions in Sunni consciousness and memory.

On the other hand, and to balance the scale of accusations, it is quite typical to find Sunni accounts that fault Ali ibn Abi Taleb for the assassination attempt, despite him being absent from the Tabuk Invasion and staying behind in Medina al-Munawwara as per the Prophet’s orders, so provided by al-Tabari.

For instance, in his book ‘Tahdhib al-Tahdhib’, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentions that one of the narrators known for his prejudice against Ali Ibn Abi Taleb, Hariz ibn Othman, claims that when the Prophet set out to ride his horse on the day of Aqaba, Ali Ibn Abi Taleb loosened his saddle so that the Prophet may fall to his death.

 

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Imami Shiites back their convictions with Quranic verses that mention hypocrites and infiltrators in the ranks of the Prophet’s companions, as well as hadiths in which the Prophet states that some of his companions will be estranged from him in the Day of Judgement. Upon asking why, he will be answered: “Because you do not know what they have done after you,” in clear reference to the Companions’ unpredictability and/or disloyalty. This hadith is cited in the ‘musnad’ of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal.

 

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For instance, in his encyclopedic book ‘Bihar al-Anwar’ (d. 1111 AH/1700 AD), Mohammad-Baqer Majlesi mentions that the conspirators on the day of Aqaba did not carry out their plans until after the Prophet informed them of Ali ibn Abi Talib’s right to succession and their required support of it. Majlesi cites Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman saying, when asked, that the conspirators were 14 men – 9 from Quraysh and 5 elsewhere – and were Abu Bakr, Omar ibn al-Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, Talhah ibn Ubaydullah, Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Awf, Sa’d ibn abi Waqqas, Abu Ubaidah ibn al-Jarrah, Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān, Amr ibn al-As, Abu Musa Ashaari, al-Mughira ibn Shu'ba al-Thaqafi, Aws ibn al-Hadthan al-Basri, Abu Hurairah, and Abu Talha al-Ansari.

https://raseef22.net/article/1081192-the-aqaba-conspiracy-the-most-controversial-assassination-attempt-on-the-prophet

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Related Verses

Some exegetes related the revelation of verse 74 of Qur'an 9 saying, "They contemplated what they could not achieve," with Ashab 'Aqaba.^[18] However, some hadiths consider this verse related to the story of the assassination of the Prophet (s) in 10 AH, after Hajjat al-wida' in Harsha mountain pass, where 14 of the companions decided to assassinate the Prophet (s).^[19]

Al-Tabrisi mentioned the story of Ashab 'Aqaba under the commentary of the verses 64-65 of Qur'an 9.^[20] In a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a), the phrase "only Satan had made them stumble because of some of their deeds." (Qur'an 3:155) is related with Ashab 'Aqaba.^[21]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ashab_al-%27Aqaba

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The Prophet (s) said about Hudhayfa and Imam Ali (a) that "they know the hypocrites better than all other people".^[21]

Many hadiths have been narrated by Hudhayfa.^[22] He was known as being pious, ascetic, and avoiding to accumulate wealth.^[23]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hudhayfa_b._al-Yaman

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Activities of Hypocrites

After the Prophet (s) revealed his intentions to fight Romans, some of the Sahaba (his companions), specially the Munafiqun (the hypocrites) refused to join the army or tried to weaken the morale of other soldiers.^[5] It can be assumed that the great emphasis on going to this military expedition had been more a tactic of the Prophet (s) to expose some of Munafiqun and the reality behind their activities in Medina, than a response to a Roman threat. There are historical indications that may support this view, such as the extensive efforts of Munafiqun to weaken the morale of Muslim soldiers, embattling of 'Abd Allah b. Ubay forces against the Muslim Army^[6] and based on one account, an attempt on the Prophet's life on his way back from Tabuk by some of Munafiqun.^[7]

 

 

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 Before the expedition, the Prophet (s) appointed Imam 'Ali (a) as his successor in Medina in his absence. After a short tarriance of few days, the army of Islam came back to Medina from Tabuk without any actual confrontation with the Romans. Some verses were revealed about Munafiqun exposing them and their secret intentions and plans.

 

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Ali (a), the Successor of the Prophet (s)

Before leaving Medina, the Prophet (s) appointed Imam 'Ali (a) as his successor in Medina.^[11] Munafiqun who had planned for riot, regarded the presence of Imam 'Ali (a) in Medina as a major obstacle in their way; therefore they started their propaganda against him. They said "the Prophet (s) is not pleased with 'Ali, that is why he has left him in Medina". The effect of such propaganda was to the point that in order to thwart it, 'Ali (a) met the Prophet (s) in Jurf, somewhere near Median, and the Prophet (s) told him a phrase according to which, the kind of relation between the Prophet (s) and 'Ali (a) is that of between Moses and Aaron, with the exception that there will not be any prophethood after the Prophet Muhammad (s).^[12] This narration, which later gained the title: Hadith al-Manzila (the saying of the Position), has been documented in traditional collections through numerous chains of transmission.^[13] Also, this Prophetic saying has been cited as one of the decisive proofs for the immediate succession of Imam 'Ali after the Prophet (s).^[14] Interestingly, this was against the activities of Munafiqun shortly after the Prophet (s) had left Medina for a long journey.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Battle_of_Tabuk

12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

What about the following ayah which the Shias use for Khum Ghadir? Doesn’t this apply in Arafat area?

"O Apostle! Proclaim the message which has been sent to you from your Lord. If you do not do it, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed this mission. And Allah will defend you against men who mean mischief. For Allah guides not those who reject faith." (Al Quran 5:67).

both of Sunnis & Shias have agreement that this verse has revealed in Ghadeer Khum except you based on your wahabi/Salfi arrogance deny it.

12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Assalama alaykum brother ShiaMan14 – The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never uttered anything ambiguous. All his sayings were always very clear and precise. He never uttered anything about his successor. Mawla does NOT mean Khalifa (successor) by any stretch of imagination!!!

Is it not utterly important to state the most important at the largest gathering??

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) gave very important Universal message/instructions in Arafat as he was addressing the largest gathering of the Believers from all the corners of Arabian Peninsula. He had never addressed a larger gathering of this magnitude before or after this event.

So, its  important to know the size of gathering at Khum Ghadeer?

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Event_of_Ghadir  This is a Shia managed wiki site so you should accept the facts.

Interesting debate on Shiachat in July 2008.

100,000 Witnesses At Ghadeer!? 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234948770-100000-witnesses-at-ghadeer/

you always falsly try to rely on number of people in any incident which based on your losing war logic if we were just relying on number of people then until now spreading Islam by prophet Muhammad (pbu) in Mecca before migration to Medina would be wrong because his followers have been too low but thanks to Allah ,prophet Muhammad (pbu) only has followed orders of Allah instead of following logic of people likewise you.

[Muslim2010]

On 11/3/2021 at 12:34 PM, Debate follower said:

Are you claiming that Allah Almighty was helpless against protecting the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) at Arafat area???  You are just speculating miserably.

The answer comes in as given below:

Are you claiming that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was helpless against protecting the earlier prophets ? Since the earlier nations  gone against their sayings and apparently Satan was successful?

How do you claim that the same has not happened after Ghadeer? 

wasalam

Edited November 5, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Cool]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:58 PM, Guest Ali said:

We know that khum is 140 kms far from makkah. So it means only those are present during announcement of khilafat of imam ali who are people of Madinah not makkah and yemen. 

 

Is not it better that Rasool announce it in Arafat so that all people will be present?

وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ {3}

[Shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

So when the revelation arrived:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}

[Shakir 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) delivered the sermon at ghadeer. And when Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) delivered the message, the verse of perfection revealed:

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

5:3) This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Cool

[Cool]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:28 AM, Debate follower said:

Then he asked his followers to confirm that he had delivered all the message of Allah Almighty to the Mankind. His followers confirmed this, and he then asked Allah Almighty to bear witness three times that he had delivered the full message. Nothing important was left out!

Overwhelming majority of Muslims believe that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din “Today the faithless have despaired of your religion. So do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam as your religion” was revealed sometime at this point.  Of course, Shias are of a view that it was revealed in Khum Ghadir.

lol, So when did this verse revealed?

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}

[Shakir 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

This verse speaks of itself lol, surely people were not going to become enemy of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) if he just forbid them to eat or drink something:

"Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me"

Now should I quote traditions of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, Sahih Muslim etc to Shibli Nu'mani? 

[Debate follower]

6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The answer comes in as given below:

Are you claiming that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was helpless against protecting the earlier prophets ? Since the earlier nations  gone against their sayings and apparently Satan was successful?

How do you claim that the same has not happened after Ghadeer? 

wasalam

Assalama alaykum - I seek refuge from Allah Almighty for even remotely suggesting that Allah Almighty is ever helpless!

Everything happens with Allah Almighty’s WILL. It was Allah Almighty’s Will of not protecting earlier Prophets (peace be upon them all) and their message as it was Allah Almighty’s WILL of not protecting earlier Divine books from getting corrupted by evil people. Neither Allah Almighty had claimed to have given any protection to earlier Prophets/Messages/Divine books!

In this case Allah Almighty has clearly and unequivocally proclaimed that He “WILL DEFEND YOU AGAINST MEN WHO MEAN MISCHIEF” (Also Allah Almighty Has Promised to protect the Blessed Qur’an from being corrupted)

"O Apostle! Proclaim the message which has been sent to you from your Lord. If you do not do it, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed this mission. And Allah will defend you against men who mean mischief. For Allah guides not those who reject faith." (Al Quran 5:67).

So, you can be assured that no mischief took place or can ever take place. With Allah Almighty’s protection everything went to plan as Allah Almighty had WILLED and ORDAINED it.  You cannot claim it otherwise however you try to manipulate the truth! Or in utter desperation try to stretch made-up tales to fit to your sectarian desires.

Event of Khum Ghadir was to re-affirm and re-assert the high status of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). Nothing more and nothing less.    

Wasalaam

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Event of Khum Ghadir was to re-affirm and re-assert the high status of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). Nothing more and nothing less.

Salam this is clearly a good & typical example of manipulating truth by "MEN WHO MEAN MISCHIEF” " (hypocrites) according to your manipulation of truth by playing with words & altering intepretations just to deny a crystal clear fact of announcing of successorship of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) but on the other hand ironically sunni sources have been mentioned friendship of Abubakr with messenger of Allah (pbu) as strong evidence for justifying hijaking caliphate by him & his party even salafis & wahabists have fabricated narrations for showing status of Abubakr & Umar in higher status than Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) even messenger of Allah (pbu) by portaying three first caliphs as ex idol worshippers & wine drinkers  as kind of divine persons likewise forging a narration which " Umar coud be a prophet if messenger of Allah (pbu) has not been final prophet" or " Allah doesn't know that Abubakr is happy from him or not"  which you can see some of fabrications in  below examples & some refutations of fabrications.

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Book 31, Number 5869:
Abu Sa'id reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sat on the pulpit and said: Allah gave a choice to His servant that he may opt the beauties of the world or that which is with Him and the servant chose that which was with Him. Thereupon Abu Bakr wept and he wept bitterly and said: Let our fathers and our mothers be taken as ransom for you. It was Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who had been given the choice and Abu Bakr knew it better than us, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: Behold, of all people the most generous toward me in regard to his companionship and his property was Abu Bakr and were I to choose anyone as my bosom friend, I would have chosen Abu Bakr as my dear friend, but (for him) I cherish Islamic brotherliness and love. There shall be left open no window in the mosque except Abu Bakr's window.

 

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Book 31, Number 5876:
'Amr b. al-'As reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent him in command of the army despatched to Dhat-as-Salasil. When 'Amr b. al-'As came back to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) he said: Who amongst people are dearest to you? He said: A'isha. He then said: Who amongst men? He said: Her father, and I said: And who next? He said: Umar. He then enumerated some other men.

 

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Book 31, Number 5904:
Ibn Umar reported that when 'Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul (the hypocrite) died, his son Abdullah b. Abdullah came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon -him) and asked him to give his shirt which should be used for the coffin of his father. He gave that to him. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to say prayer over him Thereupon I Umar caught hold of the clothe of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, are you going to offer prayer, whereas Allah has forbidden to offer prayer for him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said : Allah has given me a choice saying: Ask forgiveness for them or you may not ask for them; even if you ask for them seventy times, I will make an addition to the seventy. He was a hypocrite and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said prayer over him that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed the verse : "And never pray over any one of them that has died and never should you stand by his grave" (ix. 84).

https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/031_smt.html

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As for the mutual interactions, love, and affection that existed between them, ‘Ali radiya Llahu ‘anhu—the leader of the Ahlul Bayt and father of the two grandsons of the Prophet salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam—would accept gifts from Abu Bakr radiya Llahu ‘anhu. Their relationship was like that of brothers, consulting and loving one another. He accepted the slave girl al Sahba’ from him, who was taken captive in the Battle of ‘Ayn al Tamar and she later bore him ‘Umar and Ruqayyah.

https://mahajjah.com/the-attitude-of-the-ahlul-bayt-towards-abu-bakr/

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“His knowledge was great in religion and culture, he was fully informed in philosophy, he attained great piety in the world, and he abstained entirely from lusts. He lived in Medina long enough to greatly profit the sect that followed him, and to give his friends the advantage of the hidden sciences. On his father's side he was connected with the tree of prophecy, and on his mother's side with Abu Bakr.”11

On his mother's side Ja'far was the great-great-grandson of Abu Bakr,3 and thus he was the first among the Ahl al-Bayt who combined in his person descent from Abu Bakr as well as from 'Ali. His mother Umm Farwa was the daughter of Al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abi Bakr.4 Qasim married the daughter of his uncle 'Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Bakr, and thus Umm Farwa was the great-granddaughter of Abu Bakr on both the father's and the mother's sides.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-as-a-descendant-of-abu-bakr

https://www.al-islam.org/origins-and-early-development-shia-islam-sayyid-husayn-muhammad-jafari/chapter-10-imamate-jafar

 

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The brother of al Baqir, Zaid ibn ‘Ali ibn al Hussain, states something similar to that of his grandfather, ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, and his brother, al Baqir, regarding Fadak, when asked by al Bahtari ibn Hassan. He states:

 
I asked Zaid ibn ‘Ali with the intention of provoking the matter of Abu Bakr by saying that Abu Bakr usurped Fadak from Fatimah.

He replied, “Abu Bakr was kind-hearted and would dislike changing anything that the Messenger salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam had done. Therefore, when Fatimah came to him and said that the Messenger salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam had given Fadak to her, he asked, ‘Do you have any evidence?’ she then brought ‘Ali to bear testimony for her and thereafter Umm Ayman. Umm Ayman asked, ‘Do the two of you bear testimony that I am from the people of Jannat?’ they responded in the affirmative.”

Zaid then clarified who were intended by the two and said, “They were Abu Bakr and ‘Umar radiya Llahu ‘anhuma”.

He then continued, “She then said, ‘I bear testimony that the Messenger of Allah salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam had given Fadak to her.’ Abu Bakr said bring another male or female so that the matter could be resolved.”

Zaid added, “If the matter were raised to me, by Allah, I would have judged in the same manner that Abu Bakr had.”[146]

https://mahajjah.com/the-attitude-of-the-ahlul-bayt-towards-abu-bakr/

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[1] Some of the acts which Abū Bakr confessed to at the end of his life include: We angered Fāṭimah, we broke in to the house of ÝAlī and Fāṭimah… Tārikh al-ṭabarī…

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?lid=1&mid=319051&typeinfo=23&catid=29382

Did the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) order Abu Bakr, during his illness, to lead the congregational prayers?

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The Sunni sources claim that when the Holy Prophet was unable to attend the public prayers because of his illness, he ordered Abu Bakr to lead the congregational prayers, and they put this forward as "proof" that he wanted him (Abu Bakr) to become his successor. There are various versions of this story none of which is acceptable.

Muslim (author of Sahih Muslim) quotes "Aisha" as having said: The Prophet asked those around him if the time for prayer had come. They said that it had, whereupon he asked them to tell Abu Bakr to lead the congregation. But his wife, Ayesha, said that her father was a very tenderhearted man, and if he recited the Quran, he (Abu Bakr) would cry, and no one would be able to hear his voice. Aisha asked the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) twice or thrice to appoint someone else as a prayer leader but he (the Prophet) said: "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayers; truly, you resemble the women in the story of Joseph."[1]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa9029

Sunnis believe the Prophet (S) does not have any inheritors or heirs. The question is: Why did, according to their authentic books, all the Prophet’s wives send Uthman to Abu Bakr to demand their inheritance. None among them opposed this except Aisha?!

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We believe the prophets leave inheritance and the heirs to them inherit what is left behind but it has been reported in the Sunni textual sources – such as Sahih Bukhari – that following the demise of the holy Prophet (S), the Prophet’s wives sent Uthman to Abu Bakr (or they wanted to send him) with an appeal to give their share of inheritance from the Prophet’s property.
1. Bukhari transmits an authentic tradition: “'Aisha said, "When Allah's Apostle died, his wives intended to send 'Uthman to Abu Bakr asking him for their share of the inheritance." Then 'Aisha said to them, "Didn't Allah's Apostle say, 'Our (Apostles') property is not to be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity?'"[1]

 

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2. Abdul Razzaq in al-Musanaf: “The wives of the Prophet (S) sent someone to Abu Bakr and demanded their inheritance.  Aisha sent someone to them and said: ‘Why are you not afraid of God? Didn’t the Messenger of Allah (S), say, ‘We do not leave any inheritance and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity?’” The Prophet’s wives were satisfied with Aisha’s word and gave up on their demand.”[2]
In the second narration, there is no mention of the person sent to Abu Bakr but Ibn Shubah transmits through his own chain of transmission from Zuhri, he from Urwa and he from Aisha that the Prophet’s wives sent Uthman.[3]

By going through the aforementioned narrations, these questions will rise up in every fair-minded researcher’s mind:

 

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1.  If the negation of inheritance had been implied by the Prophet (S) himself, how was it possible that only Aisha and no other wives knew about it?!
2. Based on the narration that says Uthman was delegated to talk to Abu Bakr to demand inheritance, why was he never aware of such a ruling and went ahead and did what the Prophet’s wives wanted her to do?!
3. When it comes to Lady Fatima’s request for Fadak to be returned to her and the fact that the Prophet’s wives demanded their share of inheritance, why were only Abu Bakr and his daughter the only people who made reference to the said hadith and others were totally uninformed?
 

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa43973

Abu Bakr the first Khalifa of the Muslims

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Montgomery Watt

From 622 to 632 he (Abu Bakr) was Mohammed's chief adviser, but had no prominent public functions except that he conducted the pilgrimage to Mecca in 631, and led the public prayers in Medina during Mohammed's last illness. (Encyclopedia Britannia, Vol. I, page 54, 1973)

Some writers have claimed that Abu Bakr belonged to the “first Muslim family.” Probably, it means that all members of his family accepted Islam before all members of any other family did. But if the son and the father of a man are members of his family, then this claim cannot but be false.

Abu Bakr's son, Abdur Rahman, fought against the Prophet of Islam in the battle of Badr. It is said that when he challenged the Muslims, Abu Bakr himself wanted to engage him in a duel but was not allowed to do so by the Prophet.

Abu Bakr's father, Abu Qahafa, lived in Makkah. He did not accept Islam until Makkah surrendered to the Prophet in A.D. 630. Abu Bakr himself is said to have brought him before the Prophet, and it was only then that he accepted Islam.

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-asghar-razwy/abu-bakr-first-khalifa-muslims

[Ashvazdanghe]

The Major Failure of Abu Bakr and Umar

Quote

Maurice Latey, writing about the Roman Emperors, in his book, Patterns of Tyranny, published by Atheneum, New York (1969), says:

“The means color the end: and for all Augustus' statesmanship, the methods by which he seized power, left a fatal flaw in the foundation of his empire which repeatedly shook the edifice and finally destroyed it.”

For all the statesmanship of Abu Bakr and Umar, the methods by which they seized power, left a fatal flaw in the foundations of al-Khilafat er-Rashida, which repeatedly shook the edifice and finally destroyed it.

Al-Khilafat er-Rashida collapsed in the midst of civil wars, assassinations and chaos, just as Umar himself had predicted. Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan, who had been awaiting the opportunity for thirty years, to grab the caliphate, moved in to fill the power vacuum, and he did so with no pretense of piety or even of sanctimony.

 

Quote

Charles Yost
“Democracy is not a matter of sentiment, but of foresight. Any system that doesn't take the long run into account, will burn itself out in the short run.” (The Age of Triumph and Frustration).

The Saqifa democracy didn't take the long run into account, and burned itself out in the short run, and out of its ashes sprang Muawiya the son of Hinda into super-stardom! Just as Abu Bakr had inaugurated the al-Khilafat er-Rashida, Muawiya inaugurated monarchy, and founded a dynasty. On the ruins of the al-Khilafat er-Rashida, he reared the edifice of the empire of the Umayyads. His political philosophy rested upon long-range, sequential and coherent strategy.

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-asghar-razwy/major-failure-abu-bakr-and-umar

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These faces were emphasized by many researchers basing their research on historical facts.

Anyway, the political pathways and policies aimed at lifting the Umayyad Parties from their low position and dignifying them again as they were granted some important and sensitive positions in the government. Abu Bakr had given Muawiyah ibn Abi-Sufyan the role of governor for the state of al-Sham and he was accompanied by the caliph until approaching the borders of Yathrib, while the caliph did not do the same with other governors.

After the death of the first caliph, Umar adhered to the former appointed position for Muawiyah and continued his support over his deeds. Although there was news over the squander of Muawiyah and using golden and silvery dishes, wearing silky dresses and whatever Islam has prohibited, but he was excused. Umar used to say his famous expression for excusing him: “This is the Kisra of the Arabs,” but Islam has neither Kisra nor Qeisar behaviourism. People are all the same and no one has superiority over another unless in Allah-fearing and devoutness.

Anyway, is it permitted for the Kisra of the Arabs to do whatever they want, even what was considered illegal by Allah and his Messenger (S)?

Muawiyah gained a privileged position before the second caliph, who used to check and investigate each one of his rulers. Muawiyah was outside the circle of investigation and he was freed from being inspected.

Anyway, when Uthman took over the government, he took Banou-Umayyah and the family members of Abi Maeet and granted them control over the believers’ lives as well as granted them a great amount of wealth while appointing them in the most important and the most influential positions in the government. Therefore, they became dominant on the government’s various parts. Additionally, they became among the powerful bourgeoisie in the nation.

Marwan was amongst the closest one to Uthman and the nearest one. He was his consultant and the manager of his affairs. Marwan, as historians, was carrying all the attributes that the Arabs were carrying before the appearance of Islam. They said that nothing could behave him to be attributed according to the characteristics of Islamic teachings. He was aggressive, arrogant, diving in wrongness. The believers were angry about him as they hated him. He has played a dangerous role at that time. He was the one who drew Uthman to many troubles and problems as well as throwing him towards malicious problems.

 

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Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz, with his knowledge and intelligence, considered the darkness of his forefathers in cursing the Leader of the Believers. He suggested to a Jew to propose to his daughter in front of the people. Therefore he proposed to his daughter and Umar said the following: “How do you propose to my daughter while you are Jewish?”

The Jew replied: “How did your Prophet agree to the Marriage of Ali ibn Abi Talib with his daughter then?”

Umar replied: “Ali is among the greatest people of religion and among the most elevated ones in the believers.”

The Jew said: “Why do you curse him then during delivering sermons?”

Umar turned to people, and said: “Answer this man!”

No one was able to say anything and therefore he ordered to ban the curse and to replace the curse with the following verse from the Holy Quran: ‘O Allah! Forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith.’

This story brought great admiration from people and they went on telling this story with pleasure and admiration.

https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/era-imam-al-sadiq

[Ashvazdanghe]

The Major Failure of Abu Bak

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Abd al-Rahman had told Abu Bakr, "…you have always been righteous and a reformer, [so] do not be upset for anything in this world." And Abu Bakr had answered,

"Yes, I do not be upset for anything in this world, except three things I have done and I wish I hd not done them and three things I have not done and I wish I had done them and three things I wish I had asked the Prophet (s). But what I wish I had not done, first is that I wish I had not opened the house of Fatima (a) even if they closed it to me for war, second is that I wish I did not burn Fuja'a Sullami and instead I either killed or released him. The third is that I wished on the Day of Saqifa, I left caliphate on either of these two men 'Umar or Abu 'Ubayda that one of them would become the caliph and I would become his minister;… I wish I asked the Prophet (s) who is right for caliphate so that no one would rise up for it and I wish I asked him if the daughter of brother and father's sister receives a share of inheritance because I am not sure about it."[151]

 Masʿūdī, Murūj al-dhahab, vol. 2, p. 308-309; Ṭabarī, Tārīkh al-umam wa l-mulūk, vol. 3, p. 429-431; Yaʿqūbī, Tārīkh al-Yaʿqūbī, vol. 2, p. 137.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abu_Bakr

[Debate follower]

Salaam - Typical.  When nothing constructive to say, spew out venom, irrespective of the topic. 

[Cool]

12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Event of Khum Ghadir was to re-affirm and re-assert the high status of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). Nothing more and nothing less.

& What was that "high" status? 

أبو القاسم علي بن الحسن بن هبة الله الشافعي المعروف بابن عساكر ، المتوفى سنة : 571 ، روى بإسناده عن أبي هريرة قال : من صام ثمانية عشر من ذي الحجة كتب له صيام ستين شهراً ، و هو يوم غدير خم لما أخذ النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) بيد علي فقال : " ألست ولي المؤمنين " ؟ قالوا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : " من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه " ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : بخ بخ لك يابن أبي طالب أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مسلم ، فأنزل الله : { ... اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم

تاريخ ابن عساكر : ترجمة الامام علي ( عليه السلام ) : 2 / 78 ، طبعة : دار الفكر / بيروت

Perhaps you may dispute on the meaning of mowla here. Let further dig the matter:

فخر الدين الرازي ، المتوفى سنة : 604 هجرية : ذكر من جملة الوجوه الواردة في سبب نزول آية : { يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ } أنها نزلت في الإمام أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ، و عَدَّه الوجه العاشر من الوجوه المذكورة ، قال : نزلت الآية في فضل علي بن أبي طالب ( عليه السلام ) ، و لمّا نزلت هذه الآية أخذ بيده و قال : " من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ، اللهم والِ من والاه و عادِ من عاداه " ، فلقيه عمر فقال : هنيئاً لك يا ابن أبي طالب ، أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مؤمن و مؤمنة . و هو قول ابن عباس و البراء بن عازب و محمد بن علي ، ( التفسير الكبير : 12 / 42 ، طبعة : دار الكتب العلمية / بيروت )

Now lets see another report by Tabari:

الحافظ أبو جعفر محمد بن جرير الطبري المتوفى 310 (المترجم ص 100) أخرج بإسناده في - كتاب الولاية في طرق حديث الغدير - عن زيد بن أرقم قال لما نزل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بغدير خم في رجوعه من حجة الوداع وكان في وقت الضحى وحر شديد أمر بالدوحات فقمت ونادى الصلاة جامعة فاجتمعنا فخطب خطبة بالغة ثم قال: إن الله تعالى أنزل إلي: بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس، وقد أمرني جبرئيل عن ربي أن أقوم في هذا المشهد وأعلم كل أبيض وأسود: إن علي بن أبي طالب أخي ووصيي وخليفتي والإمام بعدي، فسألت جبرئيل أن يستعفي لي ربي لعلمي بقلة المتقين وكثرة المؤذين لي واللائمين لكثرة ملازمتي لعلي وشدة إقبالي عليه حتى سموني أذنا، فقال تعالى: ومنهم الذين يؤذون النبي ويقولون هو أذن قل أذن خير لكم. ولو شئت أن أسميهم وأدل عليهم لفعلت ولكني بسترهم قد تكرمت، فلم يرض الله إلا بتبليغي فيه فاعلموا. معاشر الناس؟ ذلك: فإن الله قد نصبه لكم وليا وإماما، وفرض طاعته على كل أحد، ماض حكمه، جائز قوله، ملعون من خالفه، مرحوم من صدقه، اسمعوا وأطيعوا، فإن الله مولاكم وعلي إمامكم، ثم الإمامة في ولدي من صلبه إلى القيامة لا حلال إلا ما أحله الله ورسوله، ولا حرام إلا ما حرم الله ورسوله وهم، فما من علم إلا وقد أحصاه الله في ونقلته إليه فلا تضلوا عنه ولا تستنكفوا منه، فهو الذي يهدي إلى الحق ويعمل به، لن يتوب الله على أحد أنكره ولن يغفر له، حتما على الله أن يفعل ذلك أن يعذبه عذابا نكرا أبد الآبدين، فهو أفضل الناس بعدي ما نزل الرزق وبقي الخلق، ملعون من خالفه، قولي عن جبرئيل عن الله، فلتنظر نفس ما قدمت لغد. إفهموا محكم القرآن ولا تتبعوا متشابهه، ولن يفسر ذلك لكم إلا من أنا آخذ بيده وشائل بعضده ومعلمكم: إن من كنت مولاه فهذا فعلي مولاه، وموالاته من الله عز وجل أنزلها علي. ألا وقد أديت، ألا وقد بلغت، ألا وقد أسمعت، ألا و وقد أوضحت، لا تحل إمرة المؤمنين بعدي لأحد غيره. ثم رفعه إلى السماء حتى صارت رجله مع ركبة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وقال: معاشر الناس؟ هذا أخي ووصيي وواعي علمي وخليفتي على من آمن بي وعلى: تفسير كتاب ربي. وفي رواية. اللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه، والعن من أنكره، وأغضب على من جحد حقه، اللهم إنك أنزلت عند تبيين ذلك في علي اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم. بإمامته فمن لم يأتم به وبمن كان من ولدي من صلبه إلى القيامة فأولئك حبطت أعمالهم وفي النار هم خالدون، إن إبليس أخرج آدم " عليه السلام "  من الجنة مع كونه صفوة الله بالحسد فلا تحسدوا فتحبط أعمالكم وتزل أقدامكم، في علي نزلت سورة والعصر إن الانسان لفي خسر. معاشر الناس آمنوا بالله ورسوله والنور الذي أنزل معه من قبل أن نطمس وجوها فنردها على أدبارهم أو نلعنهم كما لعنا أصحاب السبت. النور من الله في ثم في علي ثم في النسل منه إلى القائم المهدي. معاشر الناس سيكون من بعدي أئمة يدعون إلى النار ويوم القيامة لا ينصرون، وإن الله وأنا بريئان منهم إنهم وأنصارهم و أتباعهم في الدرك الأسفل من النار، وسيجعلونها ملكا اغتصابا فعندها يفرغ لكم أيها الثقلان ويرسل عليكما شواظ من نار ونحاس فلا تنتصران. الحديث. " ضياء العالمين ".

Why don't you just look at your own books before challenging others? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:54 AM, Debate follower said:

Salaam - Typical.  When nothing constructive to say, spew out venom, irrespective of the topic. 

Salaam- It's also your typical reaction when you can't  defend  your wahabi/Salafi nonsense then you run away from debate by calling anything that has been opposed your nonsense  as unconstructive & venomous .

[Debate follower]

On 11/6/2021 at 7:55 AM, Cool said:

& What was that "high" status? 

أبو القاسم علي بن الحسن بن هبة الله الشافعي المعروف بابن عساكر ، المتوفى سنة : 571 ، روى بإسناده عن أبي هريرة قال : من صام ثمانية عشر من ذي الحجة كتب له صيام ستين شهراً ، و هو يوم غدير خم لما أخذ النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) بيد علي فقال : " ألست ولي المؤمنين " ؟ قالوا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : " من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه " ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : بخ بخ لك يابن أبي طالب أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مسلم ، فأنزل الله : { ... اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم

تاريخ ابن عساكر : ترجمة الامام علي ( عليه السلام ) : 2 / 78 ، طبعة : دار الفكر / بيروت

Perhaps you may dispute on the meaning of mowla here. Let further dig the matter:

فخر الدين الرازي ، المتوفى سنة : 604 هجرية : ذكر من جملة الوجوه الواردة في سبب نزول آية : { يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ } أنها نزلت في الإمام أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ، و عَدَّه الوجه العاشر من الوجوه المذكورة ، قال : نزلت الآية في فضل علي بن أبي طالب ( عليه السلام ) ، و لمّا نزلت هذه الآية أخذ بيده و قال : " من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ، اللهم والِ من والاه و عادِ من عاداه " ، فلقيه عمر فقال : هنيئاً لك يا ابن أبي طالب ، أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مؤمن و مؤمنة . و هو قول ابن عباس و البراء بن عازب و محمد بن علي ، ( التفسير الكبير : 12 / 42 ، طبعة : دار الكتب العلمية / بيروت )

Now lets see another report by Tabari:

الحافظ أبو جعفر محمد بن جرير الطبري المتوفى 310 (المترجم ص 100) أخرج بإسناده في - كتاب الولاية في طرق حديث الغدير - عن زيد بن أرقم قال لما نزل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بغدير خم في رجوعه من حجة الوداع وكان في وقت الضحى وحر شديد أمر بالدوحات فقمت ونادى الصلاة جامعة فاجتمعنا فخطب خطبة بالغة ثم قال: إن الله تعالى أنزل إلي: بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس، وقد أمرني جبرئيل عن ربي أن أقوم في هذا المشهد وأعلم كل أبيض وأسود: إن علي بن أبي طالب أخي ووصيي وخليفتي والإمام بعدي، فسألت جبرئيل أن يستعفي لي ربي لعلمي بقلة المتقين وكثرة المؤذين لي واللائمين لكثرة ملازمتي لعلي وشدة إقبالي عليه حتى سموني أذنا، فقال تعالى: ومنهم الذين يؤذون النبي ويقولون هو أذن قل أذن خير لكم. ولو شئت أن أسميهم وأدل عليهم لفعلت ولكني بسترهم قد تكرمت، فلم يرض الله إلا بتبليغي فيه فاعلموا. معاشر الناس؟ ذلك: فإن الله قد نصبه لكم وليا وإماما، وفرض طاعته على كل أحد، ماض حكمه، جائز قوله، ملعون من خالفه، مرحوم من صدقه، اسمعوا وأطيعوا، فإن الله مولاكم وعلي إمامكم، ثم الإمامة في ولدي من صلبه إلى القيامة لا حلال إلا ما أحله الله ورسوله، ولا حرام إلا ما حرم الله ورسوله وهم، فما من علم إلا وقد أحصاه الله في ونقلته إليه فلا تضلوا عنه ولا تستنكفوا منه، فهو الذي يهدي إلى الحق ويعمل به، لن يتوب الله على أحد أنكره ولن يغفر له، حتما على الله أن يفعل ذلك أن يعذبه عذابا نكرا أبد الآبدين، فهو أفضل الناس بعدي ما نزل الرزق وبقي الخلق، ملعون من خالفه، قولي عن جبرئيل عن الله، فلتنظر نفس ما قدمت لغد. إفهموا محكم القرآن ولا تتبعوا متشابهه، ولن يفسر ذلك لكم إلا من أنا آخذ بيده وشائل بعضده ومعلمكم: إن من كنت مولاه فهذا فعلي مولاه، وموالاته من الله عز وجل أنزلها علي. ألا وقد أديت، ألا وقد بلغت، ألا وقد أسمعت، ألا و وقد أوضحت، لا تحل إمرة المؤمنين بعدي لأحد غيره. ثم رفعه إلى السماء حتى صارت رجله مع ركبة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وقال: معاشر الناس؟ هذا أخي ووصيي وواعي علمي وخليفتي على من آمن بي وعلى: تفسير كتاب ربي. وفي رواية. اللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه، والعن من أنكره، وأغضب على من جحد حقه، اللهم إنك أنزلت عند تبيين ذلك في علي اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم. بإمامته فمن لم يأتم به وبمن كان من ولدي من صلبه إلى القيامة فأولئك حبطت أعمالهم وفي النار هم خالدون، إن إبليس أخرج آدم " عليه السلام "  من الجنة مع كونه صفوة الله بالحسد فلا تحسدوا فتحبط أعمالكم وتزل أقدامكم، في علي نزلت سورة والعصر إن الانسان لفي خسر. معاشر الناس آمنوا بالله ورسوله والنور الذي أنزل معه من قبل أن نطمس وجوها فنردها على أدبارهم أو نلعنهم كما لعنا أصحاب السبت. النور من الله في ثم في علي ثم في النسل منه إلى القائم المهدي. معاشر الناس سيكون من بعدي أئمة يدعون إلى النار ويوم القيامة لا ينصرون، وإن الله وأنا بريئان منهم إنهم وأنصارهم و أتباعهم في الدرك الأسفل من النار، وسيجعلونها ملكا اغتصابا فعندها يفرغ لكم أيها الثقلان ويرسل عليكما شواظ من نار ونحاس فلا تنتصران. الحديث. " ضياء العالمين ".

Why don't you just look at your own books before challenging others? 

Assalama alaykum Brother, Thanks for referring to great Islamic scholars of impeccable credentials. Not only were great Islamic scholars and were polymaths. Who also excelled in other fields like history, lexicography, grammar, ethics, mathematics, and medicine, chemistry, physics, astronomy, cosmology, literature, theology, ontology, philosophy, etc. etc. Incidentally all three were of Iranian background.

Brother, scholars do have differences on time and place of revelations of some ayats of the Blessed Qur’an. These noble and eminent Scholars (may Allah reward them immensely for their scholarly efforts and guidance) even though they were of the opinion that ayah 67 of Surah Al Maidah was revealed in favour of Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in the location of Khum Ghadir, did they believe it was for Imamate of Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)?

Certainly not! I have given the links to their names in the above quotations. Check for yourself (and the viewers too) that they all are great Imams of Sunni scholarship and followed Shafii school of jurisprudence as was the case of most Iranians until the Safavids from 1500s onwards with brute force turned Iran to Shia faith.

On 11/6/2021 at 7:55 AM, Cool said:

Perhaps you may dispute on the meaning of mowla here.

Not only me but all Scholars including the three eminent scholars mentioned by you never took the word Mawla to mean a Successor or Khalifa. Even if you refer to Sermon 92 of Nahjul Balagha, if Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was Divinely appointed a successor or khalifa, he would not dare give option to the people to choose another Chief/leader.

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand, nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

[Debate follower]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:47 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salaam- It's also your typical reaction when you can't  defend  your wahabi/Salafi nonsense then you run away from debate by calling anything that has been opposed your nonsense  as unconstructive & venomous .

 Salaam – Please don’t delude yourself that you are that ‘great’ that I will run away from debating you. It is obvious that you are resident active and prolific poster here. So, don’t take my absence as running away from you. I have other important things in life than debating here. It is healthy to have good civil debates. This section is ‘Shia/Sunni Dialogue’ where Sunni Muslims are invited to give their views, right? But I have noticed for quite some time that you don’t like civil debating and keep using ‘Wahabi/Salafi’ a lot in nearly all your post addressing me. I could have easily responded in kind saying that your posts are Safavid/majoosi inspired. I did not. If you don’t like me debating here let me know. I won’t stick around for a minute. Well from now on I’ll just ignore your posts.  Wasalaam

[Debate follower]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I have given the links to their names in the above quotations. Check for yourself (and the viewers too) that they all are great Imams of Sunni scholarship and followed Shafii school of jurisprudence as was the case of most Iranians

Assalama alaykum brother Cool - my apologies I forgot to 'post' the quotation.  See it below:

Quote

 

 أبو القاسم علي بن الحسن بن هبة الله الشافعي المعروف بابن عساكر ‘Alī ibn al-Ḥasan ibn Hibat Allāh ibn `Abd Allāh, Thiqat al-Dīn, Abū al-Qasim, known as Ibn `Asakir al-Dimashqi al-Shafi`i al-Ash`ari

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Asakir

فخر الدين الرازي  Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakhr_al-Din_al-Razi

الحافظ أبو جعفر محمد بن جرير الطبري  Al-Hafiz Abū Jaʿfar Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari

 

Wasalaam

[power]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

 

Not only me but all Scholars including the three eminent scholars mentioned by you never took the word Mawla to mean a Successor or Khalifa. Even if you refer to Sermon 92 of Nahjul Balagha, if Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was Divinely appointed a successor or khalifa, he would not dare give option to the people to choose another Chief/leader.

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand, nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

 

• I hope this extract will enlighten you as to why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave the sermon 
• When with the murder of `Uthman the seat of Caliphate became vacant, Muslims began to look at `Ali (p.b.u.h.) whose peaceful conduct, adherence to principles, and politia lacumen had been witnessed by them to a great extent during this long period. Consequently, they rushed for swearing allegiance in the same way as a traveller who had lost his way and catches sight of the objective would have rushed towards it, as the historian at-Tabari (in at-Tarikh, vol .I, pp. 3066, 3067, 3076) records:
  People thronged on Amir al-mu'minin and said, "We want to swear allegiance to you and you see what troubles are befalling Islam and how we are being tried about the near ones of the Prophet."
  But Amir al-mu'minin declined to accede to their request whereupon these people raised a hue and cry and began to shout loudly, "O' Abu'l-Hasan, do you not witness the ruination of Islam or see the advancing flood of unruliness and mischief? Do you have no fear of Allah?" Even then Amir al-mu'minin showed no readiness to consent because he was noticing that the effects of the atmosphere that had come into being after the Prophet had overcome hearts and minds of the people, selfishness and lust for power had become rooted in them, their thinking affected by materialism and they had become habituated to treating government as the means for securing their ends. Now they would like to materialise the Divine Caliphate too and play with it. In these circumstances it would be impossible to change the mentalities or turn the direction of temperaments. In addition to these ideas he had also seen the end in view that these people should get further time to think over so that on frustration of their material ends hereafter they should not say that the allegiance had been sworn by them under a temporary expediency and that thought had not been given to it, just as `Umar's idea was about the first Caliphate, which appears from his statement that:
  Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)
  In short, when their insistence increased beyond limits, Amir al-mu'minin delivered this sermon wherein he clarified that "If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur'an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won't have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts' wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish." The impression Amir al-mu'minin had formed about these people is fully corroborated by later events. Consequently, when those who had sworn allegiance with worldly motives did not succeed in their objectives they broke away and rose against his government with baseless allegations.
• https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by power

[Debate follower]

2 hours ago, power said:

I hope this extract will enlighten you as to why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave the sermon

Salaams - I have read this explanation before -  I am afraid that’s just making excuses.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was one of the foremost Believers in Islam. He was known for his wisdom and bravery. If, he was Divinely chosen to succeed the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him), he would NOT be saying “Leave me and seek someone else” or “It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs.”

How can he just abandon his Divine appointment? He has no say in this. This is Divine Appointment as per Shia beliefs.

Just see the Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) "absolute sincerity and loyalty to his mission, despite the terrible odds, was this: After the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was able to gather followers from among the Quraish, some of their leaders approached his uncle Abu Talib, with the intention of using his influence to dissuade Muhammad (peace be upon him) from his mission. But the Prophet told his uncle:

“By Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand on condition that I abandoned this course, I would not abandon it until Allah has made it victorious, or I perish therein.”"

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) would have the same resolute and uncompromising attitude to accomplish his Divine appointment come what may!

Now compare this with Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha  -

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha  

See Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states that selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah.”  And yet you disagree with him!

إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى

Also, note that Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has said that Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) were selected as Imams. And yet you disagree with him!

Now, all you can do is to dismiss this as fake, forged or weak sources and in the same breath will approve Shaqshaqiya Sermon as authentic, right? 

[Debate follower]

3 hours ago, power said:

just as `Umar's idea was about the first Caliphate, which appears from his statement that:
Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

Salaams Power – there is huge problem when one blindly ‘Copy & Pastes’ heavily ‘edited’ with sectarian malice and agenda with bits cut out.  It is utter dishonesty of members of the site you got it from, and they will face Allah Almighty and answer for it.

Here is the extract of hadith in question – It is very long, so I have given the relevant part. I have given the link to the hadith if you want to read it.

 

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(O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed ……………………………………………………. Sahih Bukhari 6830

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6830

Wasalaam

[Cool]

15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

did they believe it was for Imamate of Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him)?

Salam, 

On 11/6/2021 at 12:55 PM, Cool said:

و هو يوم غدير خم لما أخذ النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) بيد علي فقال : " ألست ولي المؤمنين " ؟ قالوا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : " من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه " ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : بخ بخ لك يابن أبي طالب أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مسلم ، فأنزل الله : { ... اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم

تاريخ ابن عساكر : ترجمة الامام علي ( عليه السلام ) : 2 / 78 ، طبعة :

It was not difficult for Umar bin Khattab to realize what was said by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), so he greeted Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for becoming his mowla & mowla of all believers. 

It is not our concern what scholars of Ahlul Sunnah believes. Obviously when close companions like Abu Bakr & Umar, who pledged allegiance at Ghadir and have congratulated Imam Ali (عليه السلام), turned on their backs after the demise of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the scholars are still trying their best to defend the wrong doing of those blunders which have changed the course of religion. 

They disobeyed, they plotted and they are the ones who rushed to saqifah for settling the affair of caliphate, they are the ones who thrown a lie on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Apostle that the matter of successor was left on the consultation. And they left the body of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) unattended. 

The second blunder is their ignoring the hadith e thaqalain, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) already told them of two weighty things, if they were captured in such a situation, they should have to remind the companions at saqifah about the hadith e thaqalain, they should have consulted with Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Alas!! they were playing their game deliberately. 

Now we have evidence from your books that 5:67 is revealed before the sermon of Ghadir, we have every right to see what has been mentioned by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in his sermon as a divine command. And the importance of that command is to the effect that not delivering it would be tantamount to not delivering the whole message. 

Another evidence is the verse of perfection which revealed immediate after the announcement of the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Not only me but all Scholars including the three eminent scholars mentioned by you never took the word Mawla to mean a Successor or Khalifa

Not only these three but the very close companions who knew the meaning of mowla, who pledged allegiance and congratulated Ali (عليه السلام) in Ghadir, turned on their back. 

بخ بخ لك يابن أبي طالب أصبحت مولاي و مولى كل مسلم

This congratulation was given just because Ali (عليه السلام) becomes the "friend" of Umar bin Khattab and all Muslims lol.

15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Even if you refer to Sermon 92 of Nahjul Balagha, if Hz.Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was Divinely appointed a successor or khalifa, he would not dare give option to the people to choose another Chief/leader.

Now when you talk about Nehjul Balagha, we suggest you to start with the sermon famous as shaqshaqqiyah. Which was addressed right when people were gathered around Ali (عليه السلام) for making him caliph. 

Sermon 92 has its context, you cannot deduce from it what you are trying to as long as there is sermon shaqshaqqiyah in the same book. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

See Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states that selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah.”  And yet you disagree with him!

Salam continue ignoring me but you can't ignore  truth by repeating likewise a brken record 

16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

Abubakr has said same thing in his death bed that he has wished to become counsellor of Umar or Abu Ubaida instead of becaming Caliph which he has became caliph due to power strggle between hypocrites & rest of power hungry people  not for sake of Islam & Muslim community but on the other hand refusal of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has been for sake of keeping unity & protection of Islam from threat of  people likewise cursed Muawiah & treat of non muslim enemies. 

Quote

The third thing was that he should not have accepted the caliphate, but should have seen that either Umar or Abu Ubaida were declared as the Caliph, and he should become a Minister to the Caliph.

Source: Târîkh Tabarî, v 3 p 429 ; Târîkh Ya’qûbî, v 2 p 137

https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/aboobacker/18/3/

https://en.shafaqna.com/60128/three-regrets-abu-bakr-deathbed/

12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى

Also, note that Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has said that Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) were selected as Imams. And yet you disagree with him!

He has said that " You have called him Imam" which you have tried to change it by mistranslation which people have maid allegiance with Abubakr & Umar & Uthman which witness must confirms & absent can't deny it & council is for Muhajir & Ansar which cursed Muawiah has been absent because he has been from Tulaqa who have no authority to choose Caliph 

Quote

 in the light of this noble verse:

ولا تلبسوا الحق بالباطل وتكتموا الحق وأنتم تعلمون

And mix not the Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth while you know. 24

Then, Allah adds:

 in the light of this noble verse:

إن الذين يكتمون ما أنزلنا من البينات والهدى من بعد ما بيناه للناس في الكتاب أولئك يلعنهم الله ويلعنهم اللاعنون

Those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones being cursed by Allah and being cursed by the cursers. 25

On The Khilafah Of ‘Ali Over Abu Bakr

Quote

In particular, these desperate Sunni ‘ulama focus upon the khilafah of Amir al-Muminin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib. He was the immediate, undisputed leader of the Prophet’s bloodline after the latter. Meanwhile, the true khilafah had been fixed permanently within this same bloodline. Therefore, naturally, ‘Ali was the first legitimate khalifah of Islam. So, even if there were no other authentic ahadith about his khilafah, it is nonetheless perfectly proven through this route.

Yet, in addition to this general evidence, there are also loads of specific undeniable Sunni proofs for the khilafah of Amir al-Muminin over Abu Bakr and the entire Ummah after the Messenger of Allah. But, as a way of protecting the patently illegitimate khilafah of Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman, some scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah further wage an extreme war against the authentic evidences in favour of ‘Ali in their own books. They instinctively deny, without tabling any academic excuse, any sahih Sunni hadith about Amir al-Muminin which threatens Abu Bakr and ‘Umar in any way – whether in merits, virtues or khilafah.

 

Quote

None among them has ever been as violent in this regard as Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. He has done this recklessly and relentlessly throughout his books, especially Minhaj al-Sunnah. Therefore, in this book, this author has concentrated mainly upon Ibn Taymiyyah’s claims and arguments against the doubtless Sunni proofs which firmly, explicitly and specifically establish the khilafah of Amir al-Muminin immediately after the Messenger of the Lord of the worlds.

In this book, we have adopted the same investigative research methodology as we did in our first book: ‘Ali: the Best of the Sahabah.

https://en.abna24.com/english/cultural/archive/2014/10/12/643863/story.html

Ali: The Best of the Sahabah

Toyib Olawuyi

Quote

This book is an in-depth academic critique, and a thoroughly investigative refutation, of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah’s Minhaj al-Sunnah on the specific question of Abu Bakr’s alleged superiority over Amir al-Muminin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib. The shaykh has adopted a two-pronged approach in his Minhaj. He presents arguments and proofs to support Abu Bakr’s superiority and discredits all arguments and proofs in favour of ‘Ali’s superiority. Toyib Olawuyi has however placed all the primary submissions, evidences and denials of Ibn Taymiyyah under the microscope and punctured every single one of them severely using the Book of Allah, the sahih ahadith of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah, and their strictest rijal verification methods. Full transparency, accuracy and accountability are strictly observed throughout our book, and we hope it will ease the way for every soul seeking to find out the real truth.

https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib-olawuyi

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

[145_turbo_16V]

Disingenuous, khutbah 6 was to point out to Muawiya of his faulty logic, but it's now used to say the appointment of the earlier caliphs was with the pleasure of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

[power]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:37 PM, Debate follower said:

Salaams - I have read this explanation before -  I am afraid that’s just making excuses.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was one of the foremost Believers in Islam. He was known for his wisdom and bravery. If, he was Divinely chosen to succeed the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him), he would NOT be saying “Leave me and seek someone else” or “It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs.”

How can he just abandon his Divine appointment? He has no say in this. This is Divine Appointment as per Shia beliefs.

Just see the Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) "absolute sincerity and loyalty to his mission, despite the terrible odds, was this: After the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was able to gather followers from among the Quraish, some of their leaders approached his uncle Abu Talib, with the intention of using his influence to dissuade Muhammad (peace be upon him) from his mission. But the Prophet told his uncle:

“By Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand on condition that I abandoned this course, I would not abandon it until Allah has made it victorious, or I perish therein.”"

Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) would have the same resolute and uncompromising attitude to accomplish his Divine appointment come what may!

Now compare this with Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha  -

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha  

See Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states that selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah.”  And yet you disagree with him!

إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى

Also, note that Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has said that Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with all) were selected as Imams. And yet you disagree with him!

Now, all you can do is to dismiss this as fake, forged or weak sources and in the same breath will approve Shaqshaqiya Sermon as authentic, right? 

Walikum Salaam

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wilayat dose not become compromised because he rejected man made caliphate. 

Moreover, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) during the Caliphacy of the first three Caliphs Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) was not a politically active in the current affairs except for counselling in some judicial cases.

 

lets not forget Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had previously rejected caliphate in the selection process. The committee that was orchestrated by Umar refused Imam Ali (عليه السلام) requisition to follow the  Quran and  Sunna of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and reject the way's of Abu Bakr and Umar therefore there is rationality behind why Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) rejected  the selection process.

 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) evidently did not accept the caliphate plainly because following the ways of Abu Bakr and Umar was not conforming with Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) 

 

As for the sermon 92 you are conveniently  dismissing the reason and the context why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was refusing leadership role. 

More so you are  ignoring factual circumstances that surrounded  the revolt against Uthmam.

 

Unfortunately the third Caliph's leadership was weak corrupted, nepotism was rife appointing notorious one's his relatives had key position.  Famliy members who had enjoyed dishonesty had  immunity under Uthman's weak leadership, and this caused revolt against his regime.

 

You just  can cannot dismiss the civil unrest in medina this was no trivial matter that you can conveniently  just sweep under the carpet! it was major uproar.

And there has been many tradition from historian were Imam Ali (عليه السلام) confronted Uthman about his conduct and including mishandling of the treasury.  

 

Therefore,  in relation to the civil revolt against uthmam it was not based upon infringement of Islamic law rather is was corruption within Uthmam's regime.

Those who requested Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to become the leader its purely political and not as divinely appointed Imam. 

Hypothetically,  if the people of Medina accepted Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  divinely given right as the Imam of their time then his refusal would  be going against divine command, but we know that was not the case here.  

 

You cannot compare the role of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the role of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) The mission of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was to clearly to establish Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) religion of Islam regardless of the hardship the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had to endure, therefore it was incumbent upon the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to continue with his mission regardless what  he had to face. 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by power

[Sabrejet]

On 11/10/2021 at 3:03 AM, Debate follower said:

and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr

The empty words of a kingmaker - how exactly is that supposed to change the context of the hadith that brother @powerquoted?